teslamotorclub: Can't decide between Model S or Audi S6 part 1

I got the finalize email a month ago, but haven't pulled the trigger.

I was just out looking at the BMW M5 and Audi S6 today (well, and a Hyundai Genesis, but that was a waste of time).
Those ICE cars are really impressive. 0-60 in 3.7s?
and they've got all kinds of features like adaptive cruise control and folding mirrors, a well thought out interior with storage and cupholders, and just a nice solid well thought out feel to them.

The S6 would fit much better in my garage and is a lot cheaper than the 4.4 second Model S, so I was starting to lean toward cancelling my reservation and getting the Audi.

On my way home, I saw a Model S parked 3 doors down. I rang the bell (I had never met this neighbor before), and he gushed about his new car and gave me a ride around the block (averaging about 15 mph).

Anyway, here's how I see the relative advantages:

S6 advantages:
faster
smaller
nicer interior
more features
cheaper
4WD

Model S advantages:
no transmission (instantaneous power for passing, no jerkiness)
very well done traction control (power is cut and replaced very quickly)
fewer parts that need maintenance/replacement
HOV lane access in California
no more gas stations, nor worrying about being late and being close to empty
lower energy cost
coolness factor

My brother was trying to tell me that no longer needing a gas station was a minor perk while not being able to drive more than 5 hours without needing to spend 30-60 minutes charging was a major setback. (I make about one long drive per year and we've always used my wife's ES350). This is actually rather pushing me toward buying the electric car, because I think people should just get over this way of thinking that makes so little sense to me. If my family already has an ICE, why do I need a 2nd? My brother says because I wouldn't enjoy driving hours on I-5 on cruise control as much in a ES350 than in a S6 or Model S. I'm not convinced any car would be particularly "fun" to leave on cruise control for several hours straight.

Anyway, why have most of you chosen the Model S over some of the amazing ICEs available for $100k?
Have you driven those cars, or have you just decided that Tesla is the way for you without doing much research?

thanks,
Derek
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Hey Derek, you may have seen some of the polls/threads from a few weeks ago about how much more folks are shelling out for the Model S when compared to all the cars that they had purchased in the past. To summarize that, many folks are spending 2x, 3x and even 4x the max that they had ever done before for a car and in some cases, the sum of all their previous car purchases put together!

Simply put, it's not a numbers game at all when comparing against ICE cars in the same price ballpark or otherwise. Many of us are simply not interested in a very fancy, gadget-filled ICE car mainly because of the ICE factor. If there were no Model S in this world, most of us would be quite satisfied with a well-appointed sub-$40K run-of-the-mill sedan.
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There are two points that I will make. And a third generalization.

First your S6 is going to consume hundreds of dollars of premium fuel every month. I use up over $300 in my GTI every month. I will use about $25 in electricity. This is worth over $15,000 over my payment period.

Second the S6 is capable of doing 3.7 seconds. You won't really be able to do 3.7 seconds. The Model S anyone can do 4.4 seconds (and 3rd parties are really right at 4 seconds).

But mostly driving electric is so much nicer. It is quiet. It is clean no oil or gasoline, no soot. It is so smooth. It is so responsive. The quality of the drive is SO much better. And all those gizmos, will you really use them? I know I wont.
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Hey Derek,

I am not sure about the Audi cars yet, but I test drove a Mercedes S550 yesterday just so I could compare the driving experience.
After driving the Model S, the S550 drove like a dog. It lumbered to a start, the car handled poorly in comparison (due to the size and weight I assume). And yes, it has heaps and gobs of 'toys'. Some more useful than others, none of which I will miss and a couple I would like to see in the Model S 2.0.
The interface was awful, although I have no clue what the Audi interface is like.
With a reservation, you really should go test drive, so you can compare yourself.
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gg_wants_a_tesla said: ?

Simply put, it's not a numbers game at all when comparing against ICE cars in the same price ballpark or otherwise. Many of us are simply not interested in a very fancy, gadget-filled ICE car mainly because of the ICE factor. If there were no Model S in this world, most of us would be quite satisfied with a well-appointed sub-$40K run-of-the-mill sedan.
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I'll go further; if there was no Model S I would just buy the cheapest car that could fulfill our needs. I wouldn't want to spend more than just enough on any ICE car. Probably we would just keep our 8 year old VW TDI for another 8 years.

Instead I am spending 2,5x the previous max we paid for a car on a Model S P85
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Having suffered through VW ownership experience, I'd never purchase another or anything connected with them. The maintenance was 22 cents per mile over the 95,000 miles I kept it and it was always in the shop, had to be towed, etc. For me the Model S over an Audi is a no-brainer.

Not having to go to a gas station and always starting out in the morning with a full tank is a major perk.

Driving for three hours and having a comfort or food break for twenty to thirty minutes is pretty normal regardless of vehicle type. And for you it's a once a year trip so I don't see the inconvenience.

Here are couple of things to think about:

1. An electric car doesn't support OPEC countries, many of which aren't friendlies, and keeps jobs at home.

2. A BMW M5 is considered by some to be the pinnacle of sedan technology and the culmination of 25 years of automotive design, yet the Model S with four years of design is very close to being equal (depending on what you consider important it might slightly better or slightly worse). So at the start of the modern electric car era, the electric car already meets or exceeds the best ICE cars. This pretty-much regulates ICE cars to being the modern horse-and-buggy mode of transportation.
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For many of us, this car is advancing the auto industry, breaking the grip of Oil, helping with energy independence, geo-political security, environmental causes, etc. etc.

No car, for me, provides so very many reasons to purchase this vehicle.

But if for you, it is more of a numbers issue, consider this... in my case (each of us will have different results), I conservatively calculate that I will save $22k in gas and engine maintenance over the course of 5 years. That's compared to the current car I'm driving, which is averaging 19mpg, and driving 56 miles 5 days a week, plus some weekend trips here and there.

If you back out those kinds of electricity vs. gas and ICE costs on your Model S, you might begin to find this a bit more compelling.

Edit: Ha! Looks like we all jumped on this thread at once, with many of the same ideas.
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According to the Audi website, the A6 0-60 time is 4.5 seconds. It's got a DSG so you shouldn't have a problem launching it. They're saying that it'll average 20mpg and runs on premium fuel.

Things seem pretty equivalent 0-60 wise but you'll go through a lot of gas in the process.

If you haven't already taken a test drive of the Model S I would highly recommend it. There's nothing quite like the feeling of having all the torque available at 0 rpm and whenever you want to pass. The DSG is quick but it still needs to shift when you step on it.

I've already ordered my Model S and the S6 was never a consideration but I'd go Model S if I were you.
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ElSupreme said: ?

There are two points that I will make. And a third generalization.

First your S6 is going to consume hundreds of dollars of premium fuel every month. I use up over $300 in my GTI every month. I will use about $25 in electricity. This is worth over $15,000 over my payment period.

Second the S6 is capable of doing 3.7 seconds. You won't really be able to do 3.7 seconds. The Model S anyone can do 4.4 seconds (and 3rd parties are really right at 4 seconds).

But mostly driving electric is so much nicer. It is quiet. It is clean no oil or gasoline, no soot. It is so smooth. It is so responsive. The quality of the drive is SO much better. And all those gizmos, will you really use them? I know I wont.
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yes, the price of gasoline is an issue. In CA, gasoline is well over $4/gallon. PG&E would charge me $0.40/kWh, but SolarCity produces the bulk of my electric needs so I'm dropped into the $0.20/kWh. I drive about 12k miles per year, so that's about $2000/year savings in gas. Over 5 years, it's $10k. If you include the $7500 tax credit, Model S is only a little more pricey than an $80k S6.

Why would I not be capable of getting a 3.7s 0-60 in the S6? I can floor the pedal as well as the next guy, I think. Is there something else I need to do?

Model S is extremely quiet under 20 mph. Over 40 mph, I'm not sure there's a difference even when flooring it.

Many gizmos on the S6 would be regularly used. like center console storage. or cruise control that doesn't need to be cancelled and re-started when the car in front of me is doing 65 mph in the left lane. or parking sensors that would help me get my car turned 90� into my garage.

Is the quality of the drive SO much better to you? Have you driven both?
I've driven both, and the quality of the drive was unbelievable to me on both.
It is true that the S6 spends a large fraction of a second downshifting when I hit the gas whereas the Model S just goes. That is a huge advantage for the Model S. Other than that, though, the two perform incredibly well.
On the flip side, the S6 truly does feel faster.
In either car, at a red light, you can floor the gas pedal while taking a right, and the car will essentially do what you want it to while accelerating incredibly fast.
Both feel incredibly well behaved around corners or over bumps.

I appreciate Zythryn's perspective that the S550 is a dog compared to the Model S. I wonder if Zythryn had driven the MB E63 (or M5 or S6) if he would have arrived at the same conclusion.
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derekt75 The following thread has lengthy discussions of the advantages of a superior ICE car (BMW M5) in comparison to the advantages of the Model S:

Model S Performance vs BMW M5 - Page 26
Model S Performance vs BMW M5 - Page 30

I highly recommend reading post 255 by VFX and then post 294 by PV4EV in the links I referrenced.
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I have driven the Model S several times and while waiting for my delivery, I have test driven the Audi A8, A7 and the Porsche Panamera. We also have an Audi A4 at home and because of having a great relationship with my Audi dealer, I had the loaner Audi A8 for a day to try it. All 4 ICE cars are nice but they feel different, they feel much rougher. I think the biggest thing for me is that I never have to buy gas and that the car is so quiet. It just fits my personality too - I like fast and efficient but I hate being noisy i.e. everyone look at me while I speed off!

I can buy many cars that can go 0-60 at sub-5 seconds, but only one can do it with total silence and smoothness. Finally, I love technology so the Model S feeds my inner geek too. :biggrin:
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Being one of the most skeptical towards the Model S, let me say why for me the scales are slightly tipped in favor of purchasing the Model S. I've also driven an E63 AMG:

1) All gas cars are clunky, dirty, smell bad, and have many things that can break down. So in the end, all gas cars are the same no matter what bells and whistles are included. Have you felt the clunkiness of an E63 AMG when you floor it? When you floor it, it jerks you around before you finally get going, makes a deafening noise in the process, and guzzles gasoline putting you another step closer yet again ....to the gas station for the inevitable fill up on premium gas. This occurs every single time you floor it. On the other hand, punching it on the Model S results in smooth, instantaneous, quiet power...and you can do it over and over and over again without the fear or guilt of knowing you're going to have to visit the gas station for premium gas soon. Now which is more fun to drive?
2) Model S interior is spacious, simple, with clean lines, minimal buttons, and no silly quasimodo hump down the middle of the car. It even has storage space in the front where a dirty, clunky gas engine would be located.
3) I never make road trips like you, perhaps one time a year (if that). If I do, I take the Hybrid Escalade if less than 3-4 hour drive or else I fly. Maybe if the Supercharger network is deployed here in Texas, I'd take more road trips due to the novelty of it and b/c it would be free to charge!
4) Regarding speed, who cares? E63 AMG, M5, Model S, Panamera...they're all the same...0-60 in less than 5 sec. That's fast enough. Who cares if Tesla is 0-60 in 4.0 sec or 4.4 or 3.9? My mind doesn't notice the difference; Model S is plenty fast like those other gas guzzlers.
5) Model S vs M5 drag race on YouTube
6) Model S real world driving on YouTube
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pguerra said: ?

5) Model S vs M5 drag race on YouTube
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Now that's what I've been waiting to see. Would love to see it against several of the top cars at once... With and without launch control.

Thanks Pguerra!
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Good feedback for me, folks, thanks.

On that Model S vs M5 drag race, it sounded like the M5 wheels were skidding.
and that very well might be typical: that much torque from the engine in 1st gear has got to be hard to keep stuck.
The S6 I drove never had trouble with grip on launch. Maybe that was the all wheel drive helping out.

Regardless, I see the point: Model S really is fast.

Now here's a physics question for you:
If my driveway is 28 feet wide, my garage door is 95 inches wide, and my car needs to turn 90� from the driveway into the garage, can the Model S make this corner without needing to back up? If yes, how much margin for error do I have?

Actually, it's unclear the S6 would do any better. With the all wheel drive, it's turning circle is 39' compared to Model S's 37'. Either way I'm going to miss my current 32' turning circle. :-(
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Hey Derek,

As an owner of an A6 (not the S6), I can attest that its a fine car and a smooth driver (I actually prefer driving it over the r8 since its so much smoother and comfortable). The A6 is on the chopping block if we take delivery of the S and realize that we like it. I will say that I, like you, considered what I'd be giving up (adaptive cruise, HUD, folding mirrors, cooled seats, storage and the great Audi interior), and, sadly, since I don't have mine yet I can't help and say definitively YES or NO.

I will say that I expect the S to be cooler in the tech field than the A6 even with the above missing, and I'm hoping some things can be retrofitable (is that a word?).

It's also been a while since I drove the S, but if memory serves me correctly, it was a lot smoother and for that, felt very fast (it actually IS faster than an a6 so there's that).

The range anxiety issue is real IMO. I think many can deal with it, but to completely dismiss it just to push EVs would be a bit disingenuous. It'll take a bit more planning for certain situations, but that may be a crux for some. No longer can u look down at the dash, go *doh* and find a gas station for a 10 minute pit stop. Superchargers will help with this, but will need time to become more ubiquitous.

I'm still going forward with the S, but I guess I'm in a slightly different position of already having my '6, so it's not an immediate either-or scenario. I say if you can deal with the range anxiety and the omission of some tech, you should end up with a better car. Only you can decide what your tolerances are though, as the S does cost more and there will be some trade offs.
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Derek,

We have the Audi (my wife's car). In short, it is a great car and probably one of the finest ICE cars out there. We bought it over Mercedes and BMW. However, after our test drive, we elected to order a Model S and a Model X for our family. We will be saying bye to a BMW M6 and an Audi S6. Why you may ask? Definitely the ICE car are more refined, but we were more amazed by Tesla's Model S then any car we have ever driven! We walked away from our test drive believing this car could be a real game changer in the automobile industry and we wanted to be a part of it! Finally, with 4 kids, we wanted to send a message to them about helping make a difference in this world because Tesla is definitely doing it!

Good luck with your decision

Mark
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derekt75 said: ?

Good feedback for me, folks, thanks.

On that Model S vs M5 drag race, it sounded like the M5 wheels were skidding.
and that very well might be typical: that much torque from the engine in 1st gear has got to be hard to keep stuck.
The S6 I drove never had trouble with grip on launch. Maybe that was the all wheel drive helping out.

Regardless, I see the point: Model S really is fast.

Now here's a physics question for you:
If my driveway is 28 feet wide, my garage door is 95 inches wide, and my car needs to turn 90� from the driveway into the garage, can the Model S make this corner without needing to back up? If yes, how much margin for error do I have?

Actually, it's unclear the S6 would do any better. With the all wheel drive, it's turning circle is 39' compared to Model S's 37'. Either way I'm going to miss my current 32' turning circle. :-(
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Hi Derek,

I've walked a mile in your shoes, and I know how complex the decision is that you are facing. I currently drive an E60 M5, and was considering the F10 M5 as my next car. Funny, a year ago, it was a foregone conclusion. Despite this, I became more interested in Tesla and decided to place a reservation. After test driving the P85, I was thoroughly impressed enough that it cemented my conviction to get the car. I will admit that, due to my history with the M5 (this is my third version), I still have twinges of doubt. But one thing keeps my conviction true...

Remember what it was that drove you to reserve a Model S. Whether it is the tech, styling, cachet, environmental impact, future lessons for your family, or pure economics, there are things that attract you to the car that are not present in the other models that you are considering. Now, the other cars may offer things that are not currently present in the Model S. If their value supersede the value of the things that brought you to Tesla, or you cannot reasonably handle the change required by the Tesla, by all means go with the Audi or BMW. If not, the choice is simple.
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The range anxity thing bothers me a bit. I'm not sure how many drivers here actually drive more then 5+ hours at a time, and on a regular basis? Also i think a 30 min stop in those 5+ hours is reasonable. Let the kids out, wife out, dogs out etc�. =)
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bint2k said: ?

The range anxity thing bothers me a bit. I'm not sure how many drivers here actually drive more then 5+ hours at a time, and on a regular basis? Also i think a 30 min stop in those 5+ hours is reasonable. Let the kids out, wife out, dogs out etc�. =)
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If you drive for five hours with no stops you will be charging for longer than thirty minutes. The Supercharger paradime, according to Elon, is drive for 150 miles (2-3 hours) and charge for thirty minutes. That's pretty normal for how I drive on trips regardless of vehicle type. 10-14 hours of driving (total time including stops) in a day is not unusual, but not without stops for food, fuel, or comfort.
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derekt75 said: ?

Why would I not be capable of getting a 3.7s 0-60 in the S6?
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Where did you get the 3.7 sec 0-60 for the S6 from?

According to the Audi US website:

http://models.audiusa.com/s6-sedan/detailed-specifications

�(and if not already displayed, choose the flap (?) labelled �Engine�) the S6 does the 0-60 in 4.5 sec (as Lyon also pointed out in post #8 earlier in this thread).

In comparison BMW lists a 4.2 for the M5 with the 7-speed Double Clutch:

BMW M5 Sedan - Features & Specs - Specifications - BMW North America

�and we�ve both seen how a drag race between the Model S and the M5 turned out.

I�m betting the Model S Perf. will spank the S6 as well at both 0-60 and 0-100. And if it doesn�t, well then I reckon it�s going to be one really close race.
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SwedishAdvocate said: ?

I�m betting the Model S Perf. will spank the S6 as well at both 0-60 and 0-100. And if it doesn�t, well then I reckon it�s going to be one really close race.
Click to expand...

And if your driving style is such that a few tenths of a second make a difference, please post when and where you will be driving so I can avoid the area
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derekt75 said: ?

I got the finalize email a month ago, but haven't pulled the trigger.

I was just out looking at the BMW M5 and Audi S6 today (well, and a Hyundai Genesis, but that was a waste of time).
Those ICE cars are really impressive. 0-60 in 3.7s?
and they've got all kinds of features like adaptive cruise control and folding mirrors, a well thought out interior with storage and cupholders, and just a nice solid well thought out feel to them.

The S6 would fit much better in my garage and is a lot cheaper than the 4.4 second Model S, so I was starting to lean toward cancelling my reservation and getting the Audi.

On my way home, I saw a Model S parked 3 doors down. I rang the bell (I had never met this neighbor before), and he gushed about his new car and gave me a ride around the block (averaging about 15 mph).

Anyway, here's how I see the relative advantages:

S6 advantages:
faster
smaller
nicer interior
more features
cheaper
4WD

Model S advantages:
no transmission (instantaneous power for passing, no jerkiness)
very well done traction control (power is cut and replaced very quickly)
fewer parts that need maintenance/replacement
HOV lane access in California
no more gas stations, nor worrying about being late and being close to empty
lower energy cost
coolness factor

My brother was trying to tell me that no longer needing a gas station was a minor perk while not being able to drive more than 5 hours without needing to spend 30-60 minutes charging was a major setback. (I make about one long drive per year and we've always used my wife's ES350). This is actually rather pushing me toward buying the electric car, because I think people should just get over this way of thinking that makes so little sense to me. If my family already has an ICE, why do I need a 2nd? My brother says because I wouldn't enjoy driving hours on I-5 on cruise control as much in a ES350 than in a S6 or Model S. I'm not convinced any car would be particularly "fun" to leave on cruise control for several hours straight.

Anyway, why have most of you chosen the Model S over some of the amazing ICEs available for $100k?
Have you driven those cars, or have you just decided that Tesla is the way for you without doing much research?

thanks,
Derek
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For me, the Model S was all about the smoothness and torque. I couldn't find anything even close to the Model S in anything less than a Flagship Super Car. Still the Model S beats it, especially at higher speeds. G's throughout the spectrum. Test drive and you'll know. The car I'm parting with to get the Model S was over $100k new.
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I certainly agree about smoothness, torque, acceleration, and the Model S handles well for a humongous vehicle, but it's still a humongous vehicle. Nimble, it is not, and no one would confuse it with a sports car. I would call it ponderous, particularly at low speeds.

After my test drive, although I noticed the noise and vibration getting back into my Audi S4, it did feel sharper and more nimble. An S6 is bigger, of course, but I don't think the decision about the Model S vs. the S6 is a slam dunk by any means.
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A personal decision to be sure. I've owned and driven cars like bmw740il, Corvette z06 and Porsche Boxster and I can honestly say none can compare to the smoothness or torque/speed and handling of this car.

P1117 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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jerry33 said: ?

Having suffered through VW ownership experience, I'd never purchase another or anything connected with them. The maintenance was 22 cents per mile over the 95,000 miles I kept it ...
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[Corrected]Tesla starts out costing at least $0.038/mile - more if you drive miles per year. We don't know what Tesla's costs will be after the warranty period is up. [/Corrected]

BTW, VW != Audi. VW != Porsche.

Model S service costs at least $1900 for 4 years/50K miles.
Audi S6 service costs at most $800 for 5 years/45K miles, and is not required to keep your warranty intact. For $1230 more, you can get service through 75K miles/7 years. Audi service prices are negotiable, btw.

jerry33 said: ?

Driving for three hours and having a comfort or food break for twenty to thirty minutes is pretty normal regardless of vehicle type.
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Let's be realistic here. Early reports are that it takes 45 minutes to go from 25% to 75% charge at the Superchargers. You've got to be brave to drive down to 5% regularly, and even then charging to 55% only gets you another 135 miles. So that's a half hour every 2 hours of driving, not 3.

jerry33 said: ?

A BMW M5 is considered by some to be the pinnacle of sedan technology...
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derekt75 said: ?

I appreciate Zythryn's perspective that the S550 is a dog compared to the Model S. I wonder if Zythryn had driven the MB E63 (or M5 or S6) if he would have arrived at the same conclusion.
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The M5 came in last in Car and Driver's recent comparison of Audi S6, Mercedes E63 AMG, and BMW M5. The S6 won and is the least expensive of all 4 cars.

If we look at comparable costs, a fully loaded MSP is about $103K while an S6 without the options that Tesla doesn't offer is about $75K list (and negotiable downwards). Save another $1K in service costs over Tesla (I never thought I'd be saying that!), and you're at $29K more (plus taxes) for MSP over S6. At $5/gallon and 20MPG (17 City, 27 Hwy), S6 is costing you $0.25/mile. At $0.11/kWh, MSP is costing you $0.037/mile. Let's say S6 costs $0.22 more per mile. With a $29K difference, you'll need to drive at least 132K miles to make the costs equalize. If you option-up the S6, about 95,000 miles is the cross-over. Of course, gas could go up to more than $5/gal.

They both have Google Maps (although right now S6 does a better job integrating it with the Nav and includes 3D), both have adaptive air suspensions (3 levels in MSP, 4 in S6), bluetooth, good stereos, MSP has 40GB storage while S6 has 20GB, S6 has CD/DVD player and SD card slots while MSP has USB, both have rear view camera (but S6 has guidelines that move with the steering wheel to show you where the car will go) both have about the same level of keyless entry altho S6 requires you to push a button to start, both offer WiFi and can be built-in hotspots, both have HID headlamps and both have static cornering lamps (S6 has optional all-LED lighting), both have 35 aspect ratio tires, both have CF interior available, S6 offers dark headliner which is nicer with a black interior. Both have sunroofs and Homelink. S6 has door pockets and center console storage. Rear window of MSP doesn't roll down all the way - I don't remember on S6.

Both cars seat 5, but the center hump of the S6 makes the rear middle passenger have to put a foot on either side, which will cramp the footroom of the people on either side. Headroom is way better in S6 for both front and back passengers, even with sunroof on MSP. Headrests are fixed in front for both. Rear headrests in MSP are too low for adults - on quick accelerations a 5'11" person will literally hit the back of this head on the roof pretty hard (from experience). Front to back legroom on MSP is better, but rear seat is too low so your knees are up high. Rear seat on MSP is more of a bench, which is great if there's just one person back there who likes sitting sideways - S6 bench is more sculpted. I'd say overall rear seats on MSP are better for kids/shorter people or 3 people while S6 overall is better for 2 adults - but I think this is a situation to situation thing where one car is better for one set of rear passengers and another is better for a different set.

Rear trunk on S6 is huge. I haven't done the volume number comparisons, but it looks bigger to me than the below parcel shelf storage on MSP if you exclude the foot well. With footwell, I would be surprised is MSP volume, even usable volume, is bigger - and of course MSP offers the frunk. Since frunk is locked like a trunk, MSP easily wins the storage/cargo comparison, especially when you add the rear seats folding down.

For $6K more on the Audi you can add Heated steering wheel, Heated rear seats, Power-folding, power-adjustable, auto-dimming, heated side mirrors with memory, adaptive cruise control with stop & go, active lane assist, side assist, pre sense plus, Night vision assistant with pedestrian detection and head-up display, Parking system plus with top and corner view camera system (which is really cool, btw). For $1.4K more you can get LED headlights. I think that most of these things won't be retrofit-able onto MSP, at least at decent pricing.

EDIT: I was remiss in not mentioning the 17" touchscreen. I think Tesla's done a good job with usability, and having a big screen is great for the backup camera and maps. I do think it might be a challenge for Tesla to keep nesting levels to a minimum as features get added to the car. Some things, like volume control, are saved by having a dedicated button on the steering wheel (although I don't know if that's always truly dedicated), but that obviously can't be used for everything. In the end, I think the touchscreen is a plus for MSP over S6 - or at least will be when Tesla finishes the Nav feature.

Now there's driving. As nice as the S6 is for an ICE car, the MSP is way smoother. The S6 may have a super advanced 7 speed double-clutch transmission, with 4 levels of aggressiveness and manual override with paddle shifters, but the Tesla drivetrain is the best on the planet. The S6 may be smooth for a twin-turbo V-8, but the MSP is smoother and better at any US legal speed. Autobahn drivers won't like MSP's top speed limits. I haven't driven either car enough to know, but at first blush both air suspensions are really really good. MSP seems to stay flatter in the curves when being pushing hard, but the S6 is no slouch. The S6's steering goes really light at really low speeds, so parking is easy, but tightens up nicely as you go faster. I haven't played with MSP's settings, but its steering boost also seems to do a very good job. The MSP test drive car I drove was too light for my taste at higher speeds, but that may have changed with production models. I might be driving a friend's today, so I'll report back.

So, where does this leave us? As expected, it depends on your priorities and needs. If you're ecologically minded then MSP is the obvious choice. Want HOV access? Have 5-7 kids to take with you or need fold down rear seats for longish cargo - MSP. If you value drivetrain smoothness and low rpm torque, then MSP as well.

However, if you're concerned about headroom, or a car that'll fit on narrow roads, in parking spots, or even just into your garage, then S6 might be better. If you're a techie, then except for drivetrain, S6's options for the driver blow away MSP's available technology.

I'll just touch on aesthetics, even though it's so personal. Tesla's styling is what I'd call Aerodynamic Boring. Many cars look the same since that's what satisfies the aerodynamics gods. I'm always trying to spot Model S's in the wild, but the car that catches my attention most is the big Hyundai hatchback. From the rear it is styled very similarly to Model S. OTOH, Jaguar XF and Porsche Panameras stand out very clearly from all angles. The Model S has too much chrome on the outside. The black interior needs a dark headliner option. Finally, I've noticed that MSP's leather seats get wrinkled after just a few uses. Others have noticed it, too. Hopefully this is something Tesla will address as it makes for an unattractive look, which can only get worse as the months/years go by.

I really want to love MSP. It's an extraordinary effort as Tesla's first ground-up car. I totally get why people just love it.

But, at the end of the day, it appears that the target demographic Elon architected the car for isn't quite me. I don't live in the suburbs with wide roads and big parking spots. I don't have young kids to put in the back on a regular basis. I've got big kids and adult friends. It's ironic that I bought Roadster to tide me over until Model S, but now I've solidified on keeping Roadster as my daily driver and waffling on Model S as the family car. If you had told me a year ago (Oct test drive event)( that I'd seriously consider another ICE car, I'd have laughed. And I guess I bet $5K on that. I'd hate to lose that bet, but I've got to what's right for me and my family. At this point, any car I get will be a compromise. I just need to figure out which compromise is best for me and my family.
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Lets look at the listed advantages for the S6:

Faster: Others have covered this. I don't think it is true. Plus the lack of transmission makes the S faster when you spur of the moment decide to go fast, because it doesn't need to shift.

Smaller: absolutely true. Which size car do you want? I would have liked the Model S to be smaller on the outside, but I am enjoying the massive cargo volume. Net win for me.

Nicer interior: Decide if you like or don't like the interior of each car. Some things make sense to compare: seat comfort. Some things are stupid ( IMO ) like the suppleness of leather you don't ever touch.

More features: Things you don't use are not features, they are inconsequential. Extra things you don't use should be ignored. Bells that you ring just because you can don't count. Decide the value of each feature on an individual basis. If one car is missing a must have feature, then cross it off your list.

Cheaper: Total cost of ownership over the time you plan to own the car is the only meaningful measure here. I think the Model S wins this comparison easily.

4WD: Decide how important this is to you. I think with excellent traction control, the advantage of 4WD is minimized - except when trying to drag race in the rain, which isn't an important scenario to me.

Model S advantages:
Most covered above, but...
If I was in California, HOV access would be a significant trump card.
Coolness factor: 10-20 years from now do you want to tell your kids/grandkids you were a forward thinking visionary or stuck in the past?
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Smorgasbord you make a lot of good points. Design wise I think most audis look the same sans the R8 though. I'd choose the tesla styling.

The s6 Definitly does do 0-60 in 3.7, but it also gets 14mpg according to tests. I'm quite suprised the Audi beats the tesla in most categories though. I didn't expect it to have better headroom for instance.
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smorgasbord said: ?

Well Model S maintenance is guaranteed to cost more. It's at least 25 cents per mile not including tires, and that's only until 50K miles/4 years. It'll almost certainly be even higher after that.

BTW, VW != Audi. VW != Porsche.

Model S service costs at least $1800 for 4 years/50K miles.
....
Click to expand...

Did I miss something here?

1,800 $ / 50.000 mi = 0.036 $/mi or 3.6 cents per mile.

3.6 < 25
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Rich how is the model s cheaper? Maintenance is more and base price is more...

I guess if you take gas into consideration, but that depends on much
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Johann Koeber said: ?

Did I miss something here?

1,800 $ / 50.000 mi = 0.036 $/mi or 3.6 cents per mile.

3.6 < 25
Click to expand...

I was confused about that too but I guess he's adding in an amount for battery degradation. In my opinion, that goes into fuel cost, not maintenance.
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Just saw the busy interior. I'll take tesla's simplistic approach anyday.

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richkae said: ?

Lets look at the listed advantages for the S6:

Faster: Others have covered this. I don't think it is true. Plus the lack of transmission makes the S faster when you spur of the moment decide to go fast, because it doesn't need to shift.
Click to expand...

Faster does not equal "quicker". Model S may or may not be quicker. Most likely is, but the S6 is most definitely faster if you stay true to definition. Top speed is 155mph plus. It's a ridiculous distinction, but I'm not sure P85 has a lock here.

richkae said: ?

Nicer interior: Decide if you like or don't like the interior of each car. Some things make sense to compare: seat comfort. Some things are stupid ( IMO ) like the suppleness of leather you don't ever touch.
Click to expand...

Audi holds the title as the de facto benchmark of automotive interiors in terms of design, quality of materials, functionality, technology. Tesla may take the tech edge, and useable space/interior volume advantage, but the seats, leather, driver controls, will still belong to Audi.
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Can not imagine every going to a vehicle that gets less than 50mpg...temporary rental for special purpose use maybe, but gas is not going to go down in price over the next 10 years and it certainly won't be any easier to get or become more plentiful. The S6 looks like a nice and fun car and I wouldn't criticize one's decision to buy it, but not for me. Whether the S costs more over the life of the vehicle is irrelevant to me...
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Johann Koeber said: ?

Did I miss something here?

1,800 $ / 50.000 mi = 0.036 $/mi or 3.6 cents per mile.
Click to expand...

No, I just blew the math. Sorry. I was doing it per year and inverted the division. And it's $1900/4 years, not $1800.

So the correct number is $1900/50000 = $0.038/mile if you do 12,500/year. My catch-up calculations on the $29K price differential are correct though, since I just factored the more expensive service from Tesla into the price, not per mile.

I'll correct the post.
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spatterso911 said: ?

Faster does not equal "quicker". Model S may or may not be quicker.
Click to expand...

This is a tough one to get real numbers on. I suspect, from the time you think "let's go!" to the time you actually start going is much shorter in the Model S. It's just stomp the pedal. In a manual, most of the time I'd need to downshift (even an automatic has to take that 1/2 second hiccup to downshift) in order to really "go".

I don't know how you'd get numbers on it, but I think by the time I'd get something like an S6 ready to be "quick", the Model S would have already been gone...
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S6 vs Model S Performance.

I don't know what all the hubbub is all about. The decision maker here isn't cost; they are both expensive. The decision maker isn't speed; they're both fast.

The key decision maker here is: S6 has a dirty gas engine, a jerky/clunky unsmooth ride when you floor it, roars the engine when you floor it and finally and most importantly - wastes your time having to pull into the gas station and remain at the mercy of OPEC. Then there's the Model S 17"LCD, no middle hump, frunk and trunk storage space, large sunroof...

The Tesla represents the natural progression of technology we use daily when the technology/price point become finally accessible to some people. The Tesla simply represents this technology progression phenomenon as applied to cars. Other examples of technology progression:

Vaccuum tubes-->analog-->digital
Coax cable-->RCA composite-->S-video-->HDMI
Rotary phone-->land line-->ginormous Wall Street Gordon Gekko cellphone-->cell phone-->smartphone
Record-->8track-cassette tape-->CD-->MP3
8mm-->beta/VHS-->DVD-->Blu-ray
Steam engine-->dirty coal train-->electric bullet train
Australopithacus-->cro-magnon-->H. sapien
Horse and buggy-->gas engine car-->digital/electric car.
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AnOutsider said: ?

Rich how is the model s cheaper? Maintenance is more and base price is more...

I guess if you take gas into consideration, but that depends on much
Click to expand...

In Washington state, where I am, a Model S Performance is about the same price as an S6 because you add 8.6% to an S6 for sales tax, you don't for the S, plus you take $7500 off the S for the tax credit.
Your location may vary - I suggest you move here and buy a Model S.
The maintenance costs don't get interesting until the Audi is out of warranty in 4 years - I am confident Audi will have no advantage in this area. My only personal experience with german cars is Porsche, and the maintenance out of warranty was very expensive.
If you intend to keep the car for less than 4 years, then the economics of the purchase clearly are not important.

How can you not take gas into consideration? It is the most expensive part of owning a low mpg, premium guzzling performance car. Premium gasoline is well over $4 a gallon here, and any reasonable projection has it over $5 after your warranty is up.
The gasoline cost over 4 years is well over $10000.
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I don't know...That S6 interior picture kind of makes me want an S6.

I think the smooth, effortless acceleration in the Tesla is great, but I wouldn't necessarily want to have it as my only car. To play devil's advocate, a lot of people *like* the exhaust note of gasoline engines. It's a cliche in car reviews for people to say things like "There's no need to turn on the stereo; I'd rather listen to that glorious V8 engine." Also, the idea that gasoline engines are "dirty" and electric motors are clean is an exaggeration, at best, as that electricity has to be generated somewhere--usually from burning fossil fuels.
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spatterso911 said: ?

Faster does not equal "quicker". Model S may or may not be quicker. Most likely is, but the S6 is most definitely faster if you stay true to definition. Top speed is 155mph plus. It's a ridiculous distinction, but I'm not sure P85 has a lock here.

Audi holds the title as the de facto benchmark of automotive interiors in terms of design, quality of materials, functionality, technology. Tesla may take the tech edge, and useable space/interior volume advantage, but the seats, leather, driver controls, will still belong to Audi.
Click to expand...

Yes the S6 is faster, if you intend to drive on the autobahn or on the racetrack, then the S6 has an advantage. If not, it doesn't matter.
Change faster to quicker, and I stand by my statement.

Regarding the interior, everything you listedas an Audi advantage is subjective and an individual decision.
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eelton said: ?

I don't know...That S6 interior picture kind of makes me want an S6.

I think the smooth, effortless acceleration in the Tesla is great, but I wouldn't necessarily want to have it as my only car. To play devil's advocate, a lot of people *like* the exhaust note of gasoline engines. It's a cliche in car reviews for people to say things like "There's no need to turn on the stereo; I'd rather listen to that glorious V8 engine." Also, the idea that gasoline engines are "dirty" and electric motors are clean is an exaggeration, at best, as that electricity has to be generated somewhere--usually from burning fossil fuels.
Click to expand...

Yes, electricity does usually come from fossil fuels but they are fossil fuels found here in the US (along with solar, wind and nuclear) and using the national grid mix of sources, a Model S performance much more efficient.
Hybrids can be less polluting than coal-powered EVs | Cutting Edge - CNET News

The people who say they love the sound of the engine have probably never driven a Model S performance. They may come away with the same conclusion since it is purely subjective but the instant torque is addicting.
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richkae said: ?

I suggest you move here and buy a Model S.
Click to expand...

Surely you jest. This is circumstantial at best.

richkae said: ?

The maintenance costs don't get interesting until the Audi is out of warranty in 4 years - I am confident Audi will have no advantage in this area.
Click to expand...

Audi Care on an S6 is around $880 I believe. That takes care of maintenance up to 45,000 miles. 50k miles on a Model S is $2400 if you pay each year, or like $1600 (if my memory serves right) if you pay in advance. Still around double at the minimum.

We don't know Model S maintenance costs above 50k, but the S6 from 45k until 75k is $1200 with Audi care. All in there you'd spend $2,080 on scheduled maintenance up to 75k miles and $2,400 on the S up to 50k (or $1600 if you prepay). The dirty, complicated gasser with all the moving parts and transmission comes out ahead.

The unknowns there, of course, are the S costs above 50k and the random items that aren't covered under the routine maintenance packages.

richkae said: ?

How can you not take gas into consideration? It is the most expensive part of owning a low mpg, premium guzzling performance car. Premium gasoline is well over $4 a gallon here, and any reasonable projection has it over $5 after your warranty is up.
The gasoline cost over 4 years is well over $10000.
Click to expand...

As I said, I don't own an S6, but I get something like 22-25MPG on average in our A6 -- but yes, it does get costly to fill up. I threw in gas because that's the ONLY way in my mind the S comes out cheaper than the Audi -- though, your original post implied purchase cost.

eelton said: ?

I don't know...That S6 interior picture kind of makes me want an S6.
Click to expand...

Yep, I love Audi interiors. That interior isn't more cluttered than many I've seen, and the most important buttons are all tied to muscle memory by now. The little 1 2 3 4 5 6 thing is a contextual touchpad with a backlight. In that mode it can choose a quick radio preset. Jump over to the nav map (also Google earth) and it turns into arrows for you to scroll the map with. This car is no tech slouch
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Pguerra, some would argue that your indications of progress are actually steps backwards. Many contend that analog records sound better that CD's or digital files. Most people will agree that MP3 files are inferior even to CD's. Many audiophiles will argue that tubes sound better that solid-state (and likewise, that class A amplification sounds better than class D digital amplification). Similarly, many see component video cables as being superior to HDMI cable, which were "forced" upon consumers mainly to implement a copy protection scheme to prevent the recording of HD video programs on devices like JVC's HD VHS recorder (which used a 1394 interface).
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The TCO analysis of two $70k+ vehicles is interesting but the decision should probably come down to which car you like the best overall. The Model S economics don't totally work out at this point (although fuel savings may help a lot in some cases) but that's not why I love the Model S so far. It's just so much fun to drive and the 17" screen is out of this world. I've never driven the S6 so can't comment on that but I'm sure that is a great car as well.
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I've owned corvettes, Lexus, Infinity, MB and Audi cars, among others. There have been only 2 cars that I regret not having kept (I usually only keep cars for a few years); the corvette and the Audi A6. The Audi A6 quatro system inspires unbelievable confidence in the vehicle. It can apply anywhere from 25% of the driving force to each wheel up to 100% to a single wheel. You can not go wrong with the Audi, it has many more safety features than are currently available on the model S and, in my opinion, a nicer interior.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Model S is a great car, but I think it is still a work in progress. I have a reservation for the Model S, but I want it to be further developed before I get it. I don't want to deal with s/w bugs and updates, and retrofitting of features (i.e., sunvisor, etc.).

Both cars are exceptional vehicles. Yes, the Audi uses gas. But that gives it the advantage (at the present time) of having an unlimited travel distance with minimal refueling time. When (if) Tesla installs Superchargers throughout the U.S., this Audi advantage may disappear, although one will not be able to recharge the Model S as quickly as filling the Audi with gas.

As for cost savings of the model S vs. the Audi, that depends. As I noted, I keep cars usually only for a few years; getting rid of them before the warranty expires. So for me, the maintennance charge for the Tesla wipes out any savings offered by the Model S in not using gas. Also, the service plan for the Audi is negotiable. My dealer provided my Audi A4 and A6 with maintennance for no charge. However, your "mileage" may vary.
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AnOutsider said: ?

Surely you jest. This is circumstantial at best.

Audi Care on an S6 is around $880 I believe. That takes care of maintenance up to 45,000 miles. 50k miles on a Model S is $2400 if you pay each year, or like $1600 (if my memory serves right) if you pay in advance. Still around double at the minimum.

We don't know Model S maintenance costs above 50k, but the S6 from 45k until 75k is $1200 with Audi care. All in there you'd spend $2,080 on scheduled maintenance up to 75k miles and $2,400 on the S up to 50k (or $1600 if you prepay). The dirty, complicated gasser with all the moving parts and transmission comes out ahead.

The unknowns there, of course, are the S costs above 50k and the random items that aren't covered under the routine maintenance packages.

As I said, I don't own an S6, but I get something like 22-25MPG on average in our A6 -- but yes, it does get costly to fill up. I threw in gas because that's the ONLY way in my mind the S comes out cheaper than the Audi -- though, your original post implied purchase cost.

Yep, I love Audi interiors. That interior isn't more cluttered than many I've seen, and the most important buttons are all tied to muscle memory by now. The little 1 2 3 4 5 6 thing is a contextual touchpad with a backlight. In that mode it can choose a quick radio preset. Jump over to the nav map (also Google earth) and it turns into arrows for you to scroll the map with. This car is no tech slouch
Click to expand...

My original post said total cost of ownership. I didn't specify a time period. The Model S Perf is somewhere between 0 and $10k more expensive at time of purchase depending on your state's incentives ( but assuming the $7500 credit ). The difference in maintenance cost over the first 4 years changes the number by a tiny amount. However the cost of gasoline will erase the total difference within those 4 years.
After those first 4 years the maintenance costs are unknown, but not nearly as important as the difference in fuel cost.

As others have said, at this price point, the TCO comparison is usually not nearly as important as satisfying your other criteria.
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swegman said: ?

Pguerra, some would argue that your indications of progress are actually steps backwards. Many contend that analog records sound better that CD's or digital files. Most people will agree that MP3 files are inferior even to CD's. Many audiophiles will argue that tubes sound better that solid-state (and likewise, that class A amplification sounds better than class D digital amplification). Similarly, many see component video cables as being superior to HDMI cable, which were "forced" upon consumers mainly to implement a copy protection scheme to prevent the recording of HD video programs on devices like JVC's HD VHS recorder (which used a 1394 interface).
Click to expand...

I realize there are purists out there, and you can't please everybody:

1) Perhaps for those people who prefer dirty analog hiss over clean digital sound, cassette tape is better for them over MP3.
2) For those who prefer purity of caring for animals and a quiet ride, a horse and buggy is for them and not a gas car.
3) For those that prefer dirty, loud, gasoline smelling, unsmooth acceleration, the Model S isn't for them.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and no one is forcing anyone to purchase Model S over a luxury premium gas guzzler.
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richkae said: ?

The Model S Perf is somewhere between 0 and $10k more expensive at time of purchase depending on your state's incentives ( but assuming the $7500 credit ).
Click to expand...

My math is often bad, but I'm seeing the difference in price as much greater. The list price of the cars differs by $28K ($103K vs $75K). Take $7500 off Model S, and add $6450 for sales tax on S6. That still leaves a difference of $14K. In CA, there is no sales tax advantage, but you get $2500 back if you buy while the rebate is funded, so difference there is $19K (since you're paying sales tax on the rebated amounts).

If my current car would last 3 years, I'd probably be best served with a Model S v3. By then I expect Tesla would have many of the driver's safety and convenience technology that Audi has today. Then I'd only have to deal with less headroom and excess exterior width.

Back to styling, compare these pictures quickly:

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I have two things to add. 1) I agree w/ pguerra on cars and audio/video progression (though I am on the fence about HDMI). 2) Shouldn't you be comparing the S7 to Model S and not the S6?
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strider said: ?

I have two things to add. 1) I agree w/ pguerra on cars and audio/video progression (though I am on the fence about HDMI). 2) Shouldn't you be comparing the S7 to Model S and not the S6?
Click to expand...

Probably. but I'd rather have the S6, and I started the thread.
I guess that's one more issue I have with the Model S is that it's not really the body that I wanted.

If I could buy a car where they took the gasoline engine out of the S6 and dropped in Tesla's electric motor and battery instead, I would have spent my $100k on the car a month ago. Instead I'm being forced into making compromises if I want to go electric.

Putting solar on my roof required no compromises.
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derekt75 said: ?

Probably. but I'd rather have the S6, and I started the thread.
I guess that's one more issue I have with the Model S is that it's not really the body that I wanted.

If I could buy a car where they took the gasoline engine out of the S6 and dropped in Tesla's electric motor and battery instead, I would have spent my $100k on the car a month ago. Instead I'm being forced into making compromises if I want to go electric.

Putting solar on my roof required no compromises.
Click to expand...

True. Tough call. You just have to make the decision that makes you happy. I'd argue buying a gas guzzler has other external compromises but that's a larger picture thing. Just looking at the cars, the S6 is very nice and beats the Model S in a few areas I'm sure. The electric drive, never having to go to a gas station or support the importing of oil for my fuel and the 17" screen are what put it over the top for me. Either way you'll have a sweet ride so no way to go wrong really.
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Do you live in Maryland, Delaware, or Virginia? The Model S will help make Sandy go away.
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It seems that the OP's main criteria are:

1) Valuing the interior amenities of an S6 more than the value of going electric.
2) Valuing the exterior style of the S6 over the Model S.

Not much can be done about #2 (although I have to say I like Model S exterior - it's different, but not so bold to attract too much attention), as this is just personal preference.

Regarding #1, this is what is keeping most people, myself included, sort of on the fence. I'm in the camp that thinks that Model S is close to being an acceptable value, but with bugs and lack of other amenities compared to other $100k cars, it really may be better to wait for version 2.0. It is important to note that despite not having certain comparable interior amenities to other cars, the Model S does have the huge amenity of being electric that others don't have, of course. So that brings one back again to the main question: what does a reasonable buyer prefer - better interior amenities and no bugs/hardware issues or an electric drive train?

B/c I value quality and absolutely minimal bugs (read: reliable vehicle), I still question the decision to purchase Model S verion 1.0 myself. I am just hoping I'll be pleasantly surprised, but that is probably a set up for disappointment.
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derekt75 said: ?

Probably. but I'd rather have the S6, and I started the thread.
I guess that's one more issue I have with the Model S is that it's not really the body that I wanted.

If I could buy a car where they took the gasoline engine out of the S6 and dropped in Tesla's electric motor and battery instead, I would have spent my $100k on the car a month ago. Instead I'm being forced into making compromises if I want to go electric.

Putting solar on my roof required no compromises.
Click to expand...

If you'd rather have the S6, buy the S6. End of story.

The Model S is a great car but it's not for everyone. There are a number of things about the car that have different value to different people. The minimalist interior, the big touchscreen, the electric powertrain, the handling characteristics, the big roomy interior, etc.

Frankly the Model S is a bigger car than I'd prefer but given my circumstances, I need a bigger sedan that I'd prefer.

If the S6 suits your needs and preferences better than the Model S, buy the S6.
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derekt75 said: ?

Instead I'm being forced into making compromises if I want to go electric.
Click to expand...

If you want an EV, you're compromising on an ICE.
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I'm late to this thread, been reading it on my iPad nut only now logged in on my PC so that I could refer you back to a similar thread I started (S7 or Model S...)

There's a lot of interesting opinions on there, I think they helped me to decide to stick with the Model S (either S85 or P85 - undecided on that currently). I still wobble every time I go visit the Audi dealer for my weekly car wash, but that's really just by virtue of the fact I live just down the street. The A/S6/7 is a great car, but, for me at least, it was still a very conventional choice, and I'm willing to take a bit of a chance with the Model S. We all know it drives great, we all hope that the software will quickly get up to speed, so my only real concern is the residual value since I do not tend to hold on to cars for much longer than 3 years, so I'll likely get burned on that, unless I somehow end up keeping it for 5 or 6+ years.
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smorgasbord said: ?

Back to styling, compare these pictures quickly:
Click to expand...

So Hyundai copied Tesla (at least superficially). If you don't mind my asking, what's your point?
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Lyon said: ?

So Hyundai copied Tesla (at least superficially). If you don't mind my asking, what's your point?
Click to expand...

My main point is that styling of these cars is now being determined by the god of Aerodynamics. Hyundai is claiming a Cd of 0.25, which is just 0.01 off from Tesla.

If you think aerodynamics are the overriding consideration, then this is a great way to style a car. If you prefer more function or even just a distinctive style on your $100K vehicle, you might prefer a different design.
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Audi: nice car.good company. Really enjoy seeing ten to twelve every morning heading to work.
Tesla: epic engineering achievement, America's best workers, ground-breaking ingenuity and an entirely new automotive platform, stunning design in and out, faster than the M5, but twice as efficient as a Toyota Prius, another car I enjoy seeing 12-15 times daily.
But the Audi is a nice car.
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I had my eye on the Audi R7. They called it the Sportback. Then I found out that they were not going to release it in the US.
A couple days later I stumbled onto the Model S. It looked like a sistership.

After I learned about the Model S performance and and took into consideration the fringe benefits associated with an EV I was intrigued.
The space in the Model S was mind blowing in comparison to anything else in a performance vehicle. The fact that it was made in the US got me to commit to the deposit.

Not a moment's regret ever, especially after the test drive. It was the substantial, powerful and agile car I was after. Now there is no going back.
The fact that I didn't have to go through the dealership experience was a bonus, and in its place I found a community!

I've been pretty spoiled when it comes to cars. It's tough trying to replace a V-12 and the Model S managed exceed my performance expectations.
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derekt75, you�ve got sun panels on your roof, yet the environment does not seem to place very much � if any � weight on your scale when it comes to the choice of your next car. The only viable explanation for this that I can think of is that you just can�t be aware of the severity of the situation that the scientists tells us that we�re in. Unfortunately I�m no expert in any way, but as I understand it the US has one of the most distinguished climate scientists on the planet: James Hansen. And even though I�m no expert, when I listen to what he and the others in the overwhelming majority of the scientists says, my conclusion can only be that according to the scientific evidence, the planet as we know it clearly is at stake.

Here�s three links to James Hansen appearing in news media. The one�s with video all include transcripts:

Climate change is here and worse than we thought - The Washington Post

James Hansen: Why I must speak out about climate change | Video on TED.com

Censoring Science: Inside the Political Attack on Dr. James Hansen and the Truth of Global Warming

And here�s one example in the news of the latest reports regarding this years record low arctic ice sheet levels:

Arctic expert predicts final collapse of sea ice within four years | Environment | guardian.co.uk

As I understand it, in a worst case scenario, where you�re currently hooked up to the �dirtiest�, most coal-fuelled power grid in the US, the Model S is still going to emit 50% less CO2 per mile than an S6. But since you have solar panels on your roof that does not seem to apply to you. So in your case, how much less CO2 would a Model S emit per mile compared to an S6?

Also, wouldn�t it feel good to be able to give a virtual finger to the regimes in Saudi Arabia and Iran et al.? I mean, just look at the record of their human rights abuses� (Granted, I�m presently not versed (?) in how the current sanctions are impacting Iran�s oil or gasoline exports�)

Given all of the above, if I had the choice that you have, and having the conscience that I have, there is just no way I could possibly justify choosing an S6 over a Model S. There just isn�t.

And regarding the storage and cup holders. Here�s someone who�s working on a center console insert, and who appears to be doing a really good job as well.

Soflauthor's center console insert - Page 15

Ok, so you may have to make compromises. But would it really be such a big compromise? I mean, it�s not like I�m asking you to take the bike.

And finally; Maybe there�s a way you can widen the driveway into your garage just a bit. But regardless, as you describe it that passage seems to be doable (even if it may be a little tight).
�

We have to remember that not everyone is buying the S to stick it to big oil.
�

AnOutsider said: ?

We have to remember that not everyone is buying the S to stick it to big oil.
Click to expand...

True, and also that Elon's goal was always to market a car that can compare to any other car in the same market segment, regardless of propulsion method.
�

I'm choosing the "S" (or X) (and leased a Leaf) ... for reasons, partly of, EFFICIENCY.

I look up and see power lines. They're there. Reliable, until Sandy comes barreling through.

Then I drive past a fuel truck and laugh!

- because of the pollution it causes.
- because they're burning oil to deliver oil.
- dumping hundreds of millions of gallons of toxic waste into 125,000 underground tanks which (have to) leak. Leak oil into the water table.

and because

- wars and soldiers lives are lost for this
- keeping the money "here", etc. etc.

The entire well-to-wheel delivery model is just plain illogical, carcinogenic, inefficient ... and having driven an EV for 6 months, I would NEVER, EVER go back to gas unless forced.
�

I forgot about that once-a-year trip. Currently your wife�s ES350 seems to be your transport of choice. But in the event that she decides she�ll go electric as well, I thought I�ll offer an alternative (Yes, yes, I know, I�m getting ahead of events here�).

I�m guessing a train may not be an option. And if superchargers and other electrical outlets aren�t a viable alternative either from a time consumption standpoint, the following however should work. Just to be on the safe side though it may require the smart phone app that Tesla is working on, which will let the owner remotely monitor how the Model S is charging. But as I understand it, that app should be right around the corner, so hopefully it will be available (assuming you choose to go through with your Model S reservation) by the time you get your Model S.

So like this: Select a car rental service located along the route, and within reach of the Model S. Then you�ll need to locate an adjacent parking spot where you can leave the Model S plugged in. And I have a feeling that shouldn�t be very difficult. A lot of the folks (if not everyone) on this community seem to absolute love to help out and share information about situations like this one. Now unfortunately I�m not terribly familiar with car rentals, so I�m kind of guessing here on the last bit. So finally maybe in a worst case scenario you may need to take a cab to get from your parked Model S to the rental car where you can continue your trip.
�

So I test drove an A7 today which has the same dimensions as the A6.
I do see where you are having a tough time. The A7 is probably the nicest ICE I have ever driven. The driver interface, while not as nice as the Model S, is MUCH better than Mercedes and may well be the nicest I have seen other than the S.
There are more toys, and definately some things I would like to see Tesla add. The HUD is amazing, and the IR camera is nice. The automatically adjusting steering is also very nice.
And while the acceleration is a lot less 'herky-jerky' than the recent test drive of the Mercedes S550, the drive is still loud and uneven compared to the Model S. If I had not driven an EV, the smoothness would probably be the best I had experienced, but it pales in comparison to the Model S.
The gas mileage is poor, but that is expected in a luxury sedan.

I guess I just wanted to say I can see where you are coming from. And physical size of the vehicle may be your biggest issue with your garage. But for me, there is no comparing the drive experience, Model S wins it hands down. If that, national security, national fiscal health, environment, USA built and fueled are not near the top of your priorities, you indded have a difficult decision. For me, there Model S was and is the obvious choice, but everyone's priorities are different.
�

SwedishAdvocate said: ?

derekt75, you�ve got sun panels on your roof, yet the environment does not seem to place very much � if any � weight on your scale when it comes to the choice of your next car. The only viable explanation for this that I can think of is that you just can�t be aware of the severity of the situation that the scientists tells us that we�re in. Unfortunately I�m no expert in any way, but as I understand it the US has one of the most distinguished climate scientists on the planet: James Hansen. And even though I�m no expert, when I listen to what he and the others in the overwhelming majority of the scientists says, my conclusion can only be that according to the scientific evidence, the planet as we know it clearly is at stake.

Here�s three links to James Hansen appearing in news media. The one�s with video all include transcripts:

Climate change is here and worse than we thought - The Washington Post

James Hansen: Why I must speak out about climate change | Video on TED.com

Censoring Science: Inside the Political Attack on Dr. James Hansen and the Truth of Global Warming

And here�s one example in the news of the latest reports regarding this years record low arctic ice sheet levels:

Arctic expert predicts final collapse of sea ice within four years | Environment | guardian.co.uk

As I understand it, in a worst case scenario, where you�re currently hooked up to the �dirtiest�, most coal-fuelled power grid in the US, the Model S is still going to emit 50% less CO2 per mile than an S6. But since you have solar panels on your roof that does not seem to apply to you. So in your case, how much less CO2 would a Model S emit per mile compared to an S6?

Also, wouldn�t it feel good to be able to give a virtual finger to the regimes in Saudi Arabia and Iran et al.? I mean, just look at the record of their human rights abuses� (Granted, I�m presently not versed (?) in how the current sanctions are impacting Iran�s oil or gasoline exports�)

Given all of the above, if I had the choice that you have, and having the conscience that I have, there is just no way I could possibly justify choosing an S6 over a Model S. There just isn�t.

And regarding the storage and cup holders. Here�s someone who�s working on a center console insert, and who appears to be doing a really good job as well.

Soflauthor's center console insert - Page 15

Ok, so you may have to make compromises. But would it really be such a big compromise? I mean, it�s not like I�m asking you to take the bike.

And finally; Maybe there�s a way you can widen the driveway into your garage just a bit. But regardless, as you describe it that passage seems to be doable (even if it may be a little tight).
Click to expand...

If I liked them the same but the Audi was $20k cheaper, I'd be paying a $20k tax for the environment. I could also just give TerraPass $20k or find some other environmental cause to spend $20k on.
If me buying an electric car would save the world, it would be an easy choice. but I'm one person. I don't mind a modest sacrifice for a modest improvement to the world. but a $20k sacrifice for a modest improvement is out of whack.

Within reason, I can support nationwide/global initiatives to find ways to help the environment. I think the US providing below-market rate loans to alternative energy technologies is one way to help. I'm okay with the idea of our nation's gas guzzler tax (although the implementation might be silly).

but I'm not okay with personally losing $20k when other Americans don't have to.

The solar cells save me thousands per year, are low risk, and help the environment. I was hoping buying an electric car would be a similar no-brainer. Instead it will cost me and is a somewhat moderate risk.

...

I think with either the S6 or the Model S, I'll need to put the car into reverse before pulling in.
I think with an S4, E63, or C63, I'd be able to pull directly in.
�

You're right. It is your money and your finances, and therefore in the end it is of course your choice.

And you're also right about the fact that doing the right thing in the world we live in is often more costly. Buying organic food vs. their non-organic counterpart. Buying chocolate, fruits and coffee for example where the people working in the fields are paid enough money so they can send their children to school (certified fair trade) vs. buying the other chocolate, fruits and coffee. Taking the train often takes longer than taking the car - even in Sweden (And is perhaps also combined with two bike-rides...). And so on� And it all adds up�

There seems to be one way to reduce that �tax� some though. And that's choosing the regular 85 kWh version that does the 0-60 in 5.6 sec... But again, only you can decide if that is a price worth paying.

derekt75 said: ?

If me buying an electric car would save the world, it would be an easy choice. but I'm one person.
Click to expand...

The thing is that it seems that hundreds of millions of people are using that very same argument when making a lot of choices. Imagine if instead a lot of people decided to become part of the solution. Then that will make a difference. If they decided to take the lead.

derekt75 said: ?

but I'm not okay with personally losing $20k when other Americans don't have to.
Click to expand...

15.000+ (?) people have bought or reserved the Model S and/or X. There also seems to be a lot of people that wants to lease the Model S. And many more are eagerly awaiting the Tesla GENIII to boot. And that�s not counting everyone that�s bought (or leased) a Volt, Leaf, Honda EV, RAV4 or Focus EV et al.

Feel free to correct me here, but doesn�t the broad political top down actions that you�re asking for have to come from people like you voicing the need for a political change. And isn�t the personal choice of an EV over an ICE one way to not only personally become part of the solution, but also to collectively with the growing EV-community start to raise such a voice. To me an EV just seems like such a good way to make that statement. Making a statement every time you drive.

Children also seems to be a good motivator�

If simplified there seems to be two kinds of solutions to the environmental problem. A: To cut back on our usage of natural resources, which we of course are going to have to do regardless. The other way seems to be technological development. Development that as an example let's us keep our personal transports by making them a lot more efficient.

To me Tesla combined with solar-panel manufacturers seems to be the leading commercial force for enabling these kinds of efficiency gains. There just doesn't seem to be anybody else out there as committed to this cause. And they are offering a really major efficiency gain now. To me that seems worth supporting.

derekt75 said: ?

I could also just give TerraPass $20k or find some other environmental cause to spend $20k on.
Click to expand...

The TerraPass argument also seems to be a good one. But I wonder how they feel about an S4, E63, or C63. Don�t you think they would prefer a Volt?
�

derekt75 said: ?

I could also just give TerraPass $20k or find some other environmental cause to spend $20k on.
If me buying an electric car would save the world, it would be an easy choice. but I'm one person. I don't mind a modest sacrifice for a modest improvement to the world. but a $20k sacrifice for a modest improvement is out of whack.
Click to expand...

The purchase-price premium is, in part, offset by lower operating costs. More directly, though, your actions influence others. So while your driving, alone, won't have an impact on global warming, your leadership through example could.

Then there's the simple fact that the Model S is a really great car to drive. And that you'll never need to spend time at a gas station again -- that alone is worth a good part of the premium to me.
�

To play Devil's advocate a bit (more) here...

Robert.Boston said: ?

The purchase-price premium is, in part, offset by lower operating costs.
Click to expand...

Hasn't this been pretty much voided by the mandatory maintenance costs?

Robert.Boston said: ?

And that you'll never need to spend time at a gas station again -- that alone is worth a good part of the premium to me.
Click to expand...

This gets said a lot. Maybe I live in a weird area, but I don't really dread trips to the gas station. I go when near empty, begin the pump, go inside to go to the bathroom or grab some food, and I'm on my way in less than 10 minutes. When I lived in NJ, I didn't even have to get out of my car to pump. I dunno, this always seemed like one of those "perks" that was a bigger deal in theory than reality (for me anyway).

Though, I do suspect the "fun factor" of the S can outweigh the above. It's certainly one of MY personal reasons.
�

AnOutsider said: ?

Hasn't this been pretty much voided by the mandatory maintenance costs?
Click to expand...

Operating costs include gasoline. Premium gas in the S6 vs. electricity for the MSP will more than compensate for the higher maintenance contract cost of the MSP.

Maybe I live in a weird area, but I don't really dread trips to the gas station.
Click to expand...

Maybe it's me who lives in a weird area, called central Boston. I would only use the bathroom at any of the nearby gas stations under extreme duress, and far too often there are panhandlers--hard to ignore them when I'm standing next to a bright red Audi. And then there's the fact that I have to make a special trip to find a gas station because my commute doesn't pass any. Anyway, for me, no more gas stations, and starting with a "full tank" every morning, will be a great pleasure.
�

AnOutsider said: ?

Hasn't this been pretty much voided by the mandatory maintenance costs?
Click to expand...

Comparably equipped, the Audi S6 starts out $29K cheaper than MSP. Maintenance cost differences for the first 4 years are $1000. Even with $7500 from the Feds, that's still a $22K difference. So the maintenance costs are the wrong way, but they're in the noise.

AnOutsider said: ?

I dunno, this always seemed like one of those "perks" that was a bigger deal in theory than reality (for me anyway).
Click to expand...

Starting each day with a full "tank" has been a big win for me. No more leaving for work and then realizing I need to stop for gas, which makes me late. No more trying to remember to stop for gas on my way home, or showing up at home with smelly hands. And I don't need to go to the bathroom or get anything to eat, since I'm just commuting most of the time.

AnOutsider said: ?

Though, I do suspect the "fun factor" of the S can outweigh the above. It's certainly one of MY personal reasons.
Click to expand...

Both cars are fun in their own ways. MSP is, like Roadster, fun to mash down on the pedal and get out of Dodge (no pun intended). While the S6 is just about as quick, that wasn't as much fun because of all the noise and therefore attention you get. While I stomp on the gas at traffic lights and such all the time in Roadster, in S6 I'm sure I wouldn't nearly as much. That said, the S6 can be outfitted with more gadgets (from safety-oriented to just fun) and yet still be $11K cheaper than MSP, and then you enjoy everything from collision avoidance to a heads-up display to corner cameras to all LED headlights. Tesla has a bunch to catch up on here, and I'm not just talking hardware like power folding mirrors. Audi has the best integration of Google 3D maps, voice entry, and navigation usefulness of any available today. Audi even does the small things, like the rear view camera showing you where the car will go based on the steering angle. These are fixable by Tesla in software, so we can hold out hope.
�

smorgasbord said: ?

Comparably equipped, the Audi S6 starts out $29K cheaper than MSP. Maintenance cost differences for the first 4 years are $1000. Even with $7500 from the Feds, that's still a $22K difference. So the maintenance costs are the wrong way, but they're in the noise.

Starting each day with a full "tank" has been a big win for me. No more leaving for work and then realizing I need to stop for gas, which makes me late. No more trying to remember to stop for gas on my way home, or showing up at home with smelly hands. And I don't need to go to the bathroom or get anything to eat, since I'm just commuting most of the time.

Both cars are fun in their own ways. MSP is, like Roadster, fun to mash down on the pedal and get out of Dodge (no pun intended). While the S6 is just about as quick, that wasn't as much fun because of all the noise and therefore attention you get. While I stomp on the gas at traffic lights and such all the time in Roadster, in S6 I'm sure I wouldn't nearly as much. That said, the S6 can be outfitted with more gadgets (from safety-oriented to just fun) and yet still be $11K cheaper than MSP, and then you enjoy everything from collision avoidance to a heads-up display to corner cameras to all LED headlights. Tesla has a bunch to catch up on here, and I'm not just talking hardware like power folding mirrors. Audi has the best integration of Google 3D maps, voice entry, and navigation usefulness of any available today. Audi even does the small things, like the rear view camera showing you where the car will go based on the steering angle. These are fixable by Tesla in software, so we can hold out hope.
Click to expand...

I admit I was completely wrong before because I double counted the $7500 tax credit.
Please post the prices you are using to come up with a $29K difference.
�

richkae said: ?

Please post the prices you are using to come up with a $29K difference.
Click to expand...

See post #47 in this thread.
�

SwedishAdvocate said: ?

You're right. It is your money and your finances, and therefore in the end it is of course your choice.

And you're also right about the fact that doing the right thing in the world we live in is often more costly. Buying organic food vs. their non-organic counterpart. Buying chocolate, fruits and coffee for example where the people working in the fields are paid enough money so they can send their children to school (certified fair trade) vs. buying the other chocolate, fruits and coffee. Taking the train often takes longer than taking the car - even in Sweden (And is perhaps also combined with two bike-rides...). And so on� And it all adds up�

There seems to be one way to reduce that �tax� some though. And that's choosing the regular 85 kWh version that does the 0-60 in 5.6 sec... But again, only you can decide if that is a price worth paying.

[...]
Click to expand...

Society isn't doing things that cost $10 to save a ton of CO2, and yet you really think that it is sensible for an individual to decide to pay $20k extra on a car to save some 40 tons of CO2?

I would actually do much more good for the environment by buying the S6 and mailing a $20k check to TerraPass. In fact, I would probably do more good for the environment by buying the S6 and mailing a $1k check to TerraPass, and then I'd have $19k more in my bank account.

and if I wanted a car that wasn't a rocket, we'd be comparing the 85kWh nonPerformance against the A6 that costs more like $40k, so the price gap remains. and no, that's not what I want.

Model S does 0-60 in about 4.4s.
Car and Driver measured the Audi S6 0-60 in 3.7s.
Either one is a rocket that will put a grin on my face on demand.

- - - Updated - - -

smorgasbord said: ?

Starting each day with a full "tank" has been a big win for me. No more leaving for work and then realizing I need to stop for gas, which makes me late. No more trying to remember to stop for gas on my way home, or showing up at home with smelly hands. And I don't need to go to the bathroom or get anything to eat, since I'm just commuting most of the time.

Both cars are fun in their own ways. MSP is, like Roadster, fun to mash down on the pedal and get out of Dodge (no pun intended). While the S6 is just about as quick, that wasn't as much fun because of all the noise and therefore attention you get. While I stomp on the gas at traffic lights and such all the time in Roadster, in S6 I'm sure I wouldn't nearly as much. That said, the S6 can be outfitted with more gadgets (from safety-oriented to just fun) and yet still be $11K cheaper than MSP, and then you enjoy everything from collision avoidance to a heads-up display to corner cameras to all LED headlights. Tesla has a bunch to catch up on here, and I'm not just talking hardware like power folding mirrors. Audi has the best integration of Google 3D maps, voice entry, and navigation usefulness of any available today. Audi even does the small things, like the rear view camera showing you where the car will go based on the steering angle. These are fixable by Tesla in software, so we can hold out hope.
Click to expand...

My brother thought that gas stations were such a minor nuisance that they weren't worth talking about. I disagree. 5-10 minutes a week is a big deal to me. especially because I don't get to choose when those 5-10 minutes are going to be spent.

I also agree that it would be more fun to punch it in a quiet car. When you floor a turbocharged V8, it feels like you're being an ostentatious a-hole. Flooring the moderately quiet electric vehicle seems more like you're just effortlessly going where you need to go. Whee!

and I absolutely agree that by going with Tesla, I would sorely miss the adaptive cruise control, parking sensors, and other advanced features in the Audi.

I'm going to do some more test drives this weekend I hope.
�

derekt75 said: ?

My brother thought that gas stations were such a minor nuisance that they weren't worth talking about. I disagree. 5-10 minutes a week is a big deal to me. especially because I don't get to choose when those 5-10 minutes are going to be spent.
Click to expand...

Suppose it takes 10 seconds to plug in the Model S. That's still ~300 seconds per month for a nightly plug-in (~200 for only weeknights), so 5 minutes (4 minutes). You're not really saving that.
�

brianman said: ?

Suppose it takes 10 seconds to plug in the Model S. That's still ~300 seconds per month for a nightly plug-in (~200 for only weeknights), so 5 minutes (4 minutes). You're not really saving that.
Click to expand...

Many people who commute get gas once a week. So, that's 4 * 5 minutes = 20 minutes a month. So, you're saving 75% of that. And, while the act of pumping may be only 5 minutes, are you driving out of your way to get to that gas station? It could be that you save a half hour a month not needing gas stations.

But, as derek75 says, it's not the time spent/saved as much as it is when the time is needed. Ten seconds to plug in at home/at work isn't bothersome. An unplanned 10 minutes on the way to work to get gas is bothersome, especially if it makes you late for a morning meeting.

And, while I'm on the subject of being late for work, don't forget HOV access in states like CA. My Roadster saves me 15-30 minutes a workday in commute time. That's over 6 hours a month!
�

Model S does 0-60 in about 4.4s.
Car and Driver measured the Audi S6 0-60 in 3.7s.
Either one is a rocket that will put a grin on my face on demand.
Click to expand...

I haven't read the car and driver report on the S6, but I'll bet that time was with launch control and/or a one foot roll out.
Motor Trend put the MSP at 3.9 with a one foot roll out.

But like you say, when you're hitting 4 seconds, you're hitting rocket territory with either of them!
�

smorgasbord said: ?

And, while I'm on the subject of being late for work, don't forget HOV access in states like CA. My Roadster saves me 15-30 minutes a workday in commute time. That's over 6 hours a month!
Click to expand...

The HOV lane will probably average me about 10 seconds each way on my commute. but it's not the 10 seconds, it's the frustration of driving 65 behind a yahoo in the 2nd most left lane when there's a beautiful empty lane next to it that's forbidden to me.
Similarly, the car's 310kW powerplant will only save me a handful of seconds each way compared to a boring car. but it can make all the difference in the smile on my face.
�

Car And Driver test Audi S6:

C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 3.7 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 9.2 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 16.1 sec
Rolling start, 5�60 mph: 4.9 sec
Top gear, 30�50 mph: 2.1 sec
Top gear, 50�70 mph: 2.6 sec
Standing �-mile: 12.1 sec @ 115 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 155 mph
Braking, 70�0 mph: 157 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.87 g

Car And Driver test M5:

C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 3.7 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 8.3 sec
Zero to 150 mph: 18.3 sec
Rolling start, 5�60 mph: 4.6 sec
Top gear, 30�50 mph: 1.8 sec
Top gear, 50�70 mph: 2.4 sec
�-mile: 12.0 sec @ 122 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 155�190 mph
Braking, 70�0 mph: 165 ft
�

derekt75 said: ?

The HOV lane will probably average me about 10 seconds each way on my commute. but it's not the 10 seconds, it's the frustration of driving 65 behind a yahoo in the 2nd most left lane when there's a beautiful empty lane next to it that's forbidden to me.
Similarly, the car's 310kW powerplant will only save me a handful of seconds each way compared to a boring car. but it can make all the difference in the smile on my face.
Click to expand...

We should be nice to the word 'Yahoo', at least for a couple weeks, in honor of the sound judgement we've seen from them recently.
�

@smorgasbord

I think you might have missed a fairly important piece of the Audi's service cost...

---

From Audi's web site:

As an owner of a new Audi 2013 model year vehicle, you will receive:

The first scheduled maintenance service at 5,000 miles or twelve months, whichever comes first, free of charge

Four years or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first, new vehicle limited warranty

Twelve year limited warranty against corrosion perforation

Audi 24-hour Roadside Assistance for four years

---

AS NOTED ABOVE, the first scheduled service at 12 months/5K miles is free, but the remaining scheduled services are not. And neither are any service issues not covered by the warranty, such as brake pad/rotor replacement - which would likely be needed on a car of this performance level by 50,000 miles. I own a 2002 Audi S6, and I can tell you that these cars are not inexpensive to maintain, even when the warranty is still in effect. There are many wear & tear exceptions, not to mention routine maintenance. In contrast, everything except tires is covered on the Model S out to 4 years/50K miles for $1,900.

After the warranty expires, during years 5-10, I believe the Model S will particularly stand out for its low maintenance costs. My S6, which now has 120K+ miles, has needed among other things a radiator replacement, a transmission replacement and a suspension rebuild. If I didn't enjoy the car so much, I wouldn't have bothered.
�

Todd, you forget Audi care. For less than half of Tesla's cheapest option, your maintenance is covered for 50k miles. its been covered up thread.
�

brianman said: ?

Suppose it takes 10 seconds to plug in the Model S. That's still ~300 seconds per month for a nightly plug-in (~200 for only weeknights), so 5 minutes (4 minutes). You're not really saving that.
Click to expand...

10 seconds is reasonable - that is how long it takes to plug in my Roadster (I've timed it), although to be fair my HPC is on the far side of the car so that's probably an upper limit!

Even so I'd far rather spend a few seconds in the comfort of my own garage every day than fill gasoline even once a year in a howling blizzard!
�

AnOutsider said: ?

Todd, you forget Audi care. For less than half of Tesla's cheapest option, your maintenance is covered for 50k miles. its been covered up thread.
Click to expand...

I've also never bought an Audi, new or used, without negotiating at least 3 years maintenance for free. It's an easy give-away for the salesperson to secure the deal. Of course, depending on your point of view, that's either the 'fun' part of buying from a traditional dealer, or a PITA part.
�

derekt75 said: ?

Society isn't doing things that cost $10 to save a ton of CO2, and yet you really think that it is sensible for an individual to decide to pay $20k extra on a car to save some 40 tons of CO2?
Click to expand...

For me it's not so much about how much CO2 a single Model S saves in the current situation, but about jump starting a new technology which together with renewable power, solar and wind, will bring mid-term and long-term a *huge* reduction of emissions (and fresh air in the cities). It will also help developing battery technology, its range and price, to the point where eventually all (or most) cars and trucks and maybe even ships and planes will also be electric.
�

Forget the so called price premium.
The drive experience in the model S is simply superior. For me, that alone is worth the price difference.

If the Model S won't fit in your single garage door due to the angle of your garage, don't get it. But as for which car, in and of itself is 'better', in my mind there is no question, the Model S has no competition from Audi (although they are probably the best out of any ICE I have driven).
�

Zythryn said: ?

If the Model S won't fit in your single garage door due to the angle of your garage.....
Click to expand...

get a different house?
mortgage rates are pretty low still
�

AnOutsider said: ?

Todd, you forget Audi care. For less than half of Tesla's cheapest option, your maintenance is covered for 50k miles. its been covered up thread.
Click to expand...

However Audi Care doesn't include wear and tear parts (except maybe oil), which Todd just said are not inexpensive even while under warranty.

And if you make even just one long trip per year (like SF-LA), the free SuperCharger might save more that $500 compared to an ICE (over 4 years).
�

Norbert said: ?

And if you make even just one long trip per year (like SF-LA), the free SuperCharger might save more that $500 compared to an ICE.
Click to expand...

What ICE would you be driving? At 15 MPG, an 800 mile round trip is less than $225 at $4/gallon.
�

Norbert said: ?

However Audi Care doesn't include wear and tear parts (except maybe oil), which Todd just said are not inexpensive even while under warranty.
Click to expand...

This may be true, but we don't have nearly enough information to make a decision on the value of that. What exactly is replaced? If we go just on what they currently outline:

Replacement parts like brake pads and windshield wipers (excluding tires)
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As has been said in the past, how often do you need new brakes (especially with regen)? I think I've had mine changed on the Q5 once in 3.5 years and not yet on our A6 (1.5 years). Wipers are cheap. Tires is where the money is for me usually (just spent 300+ because of a nail in a tire), and Tesla doesn't cover those
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smorgasbord said: ?

What ICE would you be driving? At 15 MPG, an 800 mile round trip is less than $225 at $4/gallon.
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$225 would be $900 in 4 years.

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AnOutsider said: ?

As has been said in the past, how often do you need new brakes (especially with regen)? I think I've had mine changed on the Q5 once in 3.5 years and not yet on our A6 (1.5 years). Wipers are cheap. Tires is where the money is for me usually (just spent 300+ because of a nail in a tire), and Tesla doesn't cover those
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So how much did you pay for new brakes (and/or brake pads), including work and everything ?

We would be comparing to Audi maintenance costs (which of course doesn't have regen, and doesn't seem to include tires either), and in any case Todd didn't sound like he would be talking about brake pads and wipers only.
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Norbert said: ?

$225 would be $900 in 4 years.

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So how much did you pay for new brakes (and/or brake pads), including work and everything ?

We would be comparing to Audi maintenance costs (which of course doesn't have regen, and doesn't seem to include tires either), and in any case Todd didn't sound like he would be talking about brake pads and wipers only.
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In 3.5 years of owning my A5 (low mileage though, maybe 30k), I've never paid a cent to Audi for any maintenance...it's been back there 3 times for scheduled maintenance (and one time they did replace the wipers - no charge, and oil and other fluids are always included), but brakes are still good, not even close to needing replacement. That said, it's an Audi, and they tend to have electrical issues (In the past couple of weeks I've had random errors for the light motors, and fuel level sensor), so I'd be very wary of not having a maintenance plan on my A5, or any other car.
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pete8314 said: ?

In 3.5 years of owning my A5 (low mileage though, maybe 30k), I've never paid a cent to Audi for any maintenance...it's been back there 3 times for scheduled maintenance (and one time they did replace the wipers - no charge, and oil and other fluids are always included), but brakes are still good, not even close to needing replacement. That said, it's an Audi, and they tend to have electrical issues (In the past couple of weeks I've had random errors for the light motors, and fuel level sensor), so I'd be very wary of not having a maintenance plan on my A5, or any other car.
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If you haven't encountered those replacements yet, with below-average mileage, then it just means you don't know what the costs are, yet.
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From my perspective this is a no-brainer. An opportunity to drive the future, or staying stuck in the past. Before learning about greenhouse gas emissions and global warming, I had driven performance vehicles and still have a GL Mercedes (diesel) and BMW convertible. My last two cars have been Prius', as these were the highest performance sedans (when measured in terms of mpg and CO2 emissions) then available. The Model S is a top performer in all categories, and those of us having the good fortune to be able to afford one should purchase one (or more) to support the overdue evolution of the automotive industry from fossil fuel to electricity.

Hurricane Sandy, and the other crazy weather events of the past few years have confirmed in spades that we have get off oil, ASAP. Each Model S is a step in the right direction.
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Continuing from my message above, if you go here for an edmunds.com estimate of costs for the S6, you'll see that maintenance (and repair) costs are dramatically increasing over time, especially in year 5 (but also year 4) :

2011 Audi S6 5.2L V10 AWD 6-speed Automatic True Cost to Own
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Norbert said: ?

If you haven't encountered those replacements yet, with below-average mileage, then it just means you don't know what the costs are, yet.
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Well, not really. I'm not keeping the car past year 4 (when the current maintenance plan expires), so my costs are zero for anything and everything, aside from tires and battery.
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pete8314 said: ?

Well, not really. I'm not keeping the car past year 4 (when the current maintenance plan expires), so my costs are zero for anything and everything, aside from tires and battery.
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Unless you are leasing, the costs are reflected in the resale price you can get. And even if you are leasing, your mileage is more typical for year 2. Plus those costs will be reflected in the parameters of the leasing contract itself. If you look at the link to edmunds.com above, you'll see that the year 2 cost doesn't say anything about the year 4 cost.

And if you say "zero" cost, you are letting the maintenance contract fall under the table, at the least.
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Norbert said: ?

Unless you are leasing, the costs are reflected in the resale price you can get. And even if you are leasing, your mileage is more typical for year 2. Plus those costs will be reflected in the parameters of the leasing contract itself. If you look at the link to edmunds.com above, you'll see that the year 2 cost doesn't say anything about the year 4 cost.

And if you say "zero" cost, you are letting the maintenance contract fall under the table, at the least.
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True, but the 'free' maintenance was agreed after I negotiated a price I was happy with for the car, so conceptually at least, it's free. In reality it just ate away at the dealer's margin a bit, but it's still of no cost to me, and I felt I got a good price on the car. Depreciation over the 4 years I will end up owning it nets out at $4k per year, based on projected trade-in value next April.

I'm really not trying to make a case for Total Cost of Ownership, or for Audi, the point was really that with Audi, maintenance is negotiable. With Tesla, it is not. When comparing an A6/7 to a Model S, I personally assume that Audi maintenance is zero, Model S is $600 per year (I probably will not pre-pay). There's loads of other factors at play, such as depreciation, which for Audi is predictable, for Tesla is really is not. That's before all the other considerations and emotions come into play. I'm keeping my model S reservation, but if you're trying to compare costs, and environmental considerations are not your #1 reason for buying a Tesla, then I can see why it's a tough choice. The A6 is cheaper no matter how you look at it, and is also an Autocar COTY winner.
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pete8314 said: ?

True, but the 'free' maintenance was agreed after I negotiated a price I was happy with for the car, so conceptually at least, it's free. In reality it just ate away at the dealer's margin a bit, but it's still of no cost to me, and I felt I got a good price on the car.
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Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense to me. The dealer could as well have said you get the sound package ($5,900) for $900 less. You simply negotiated the complete price of the car. Maintenance is never free, whatever the dealer tells you.

As an aside, it seems the discussion, in general, is not considering repair costs (as opposed to maintenance) at all, which are (hopefully) much lower for an EV. While checking out various web pages, I saw another "wear" part are sparks and spark cables, about $200 for an average car, per 100k miles, but that probably pales in comparison to average repairs and replacements in general.
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$200 for spark plugs and cables??? You clearly haven't paid for service on a BMW or Mercedes . Last time I checked (and it was a while ago), a spark plug cable (comes with integrated coil) was over $150.

That's parts cost only. No labor. And that's cost for one (1) cable+coil.
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A few points:

As for TCO, the largest cost in owning virtually any car is depreciation. If you are turning ICE cars over every 3-4 years to save on later higher repairs, you are throwing much more money away on depreciation.

The experience of owning an EV is NOT captured in even several test drives. Those of us who have owned Roadsters for 2+ years can attest to the fact that once you LIVE with a high-performance EV (a Tesla) for a few months, ANY ICE box seems just so inadequate and awkward to drive.

I have owned an Audi A8 and an A3. I love Audis. In ten years, when they just might catch up to Tesla with an EV, I might possibly own one again, but doubtful.

I sold a Ferrari 360 Modena to buy our Model S Signature P85. 'Nuff said.
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Norbert said: ?

$225 would be $900 in 4 years.
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Sorry about missing the "per year."

However, why count just the road trips? Count all your mileage. I did some numbers in a previous post in this thread, and at $5/gallon it takes about 100K miles for the cheaper Audi to cost as much as a comparably equipped MSP. However, that doesn't factor in repair costs after the 4 years/50K warranty/service period, nor does it factor in depreciation. And, as others have pointed out, those can whack the TCO equation in significant ways.
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I�ve managed to miss your thread about Tesla Motors. After reading that I got the feeling that what you really want is the electric car, and you�re saying it yourself:

derekt75 said: ?

I also agree that it would be more fun to punch it in a quiet car. When you floor a turbocharged V8, it feels like you're being an ostentatious a-hole. Flooring the moderately quiet electric vehicle seems more like you're just effortlessly going where you need to go. Whee!
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derekt75 said: ?

The HOV lane will probably average me about 10 seconds each way on my commute. but it's not the 10 seconds, it's the frustration of driving 65 behind a yahoo in the 2nd most left lane when there's a beautiful empty lane next to it that's forbidden to me.
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But there is of course absolutely no need to get P6XYZ when you can just as well get PXYZYX instead. Now I�ve forgotten how long Tesla are saying they�ll need to complete the ramp up (1,2,3 months?) but after this period things should look a bit clearer if I've understood it correctly.

derekt75 said: ?

Model S does 0-60 in about 4.4s.
Car and Driver measured the Audi S6 0-60 in 3.7s.
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It seems to me SCW-Greg countered that one. Thanks!:

SCW-Greg said: ?

I haven't read the car and driver report on the S6, but I'll bet that time was with launch control and/or a one foot roll out.
Motor Trend put the MSP at 3.9 with a one foot roll out.
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derekt75 said: ?

Society isn't doing things that cost $10 to save a ton of CO2, and yet you really think that it is sensible for an individual to decide to pay $20k extra on a car to save some 40 tons of CO2?
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We�ve been through this one before. Norbert (post #85), Robert.Boston (post #68) and RichardC (post #94) have also written about it. Thanks! (and I apologize if I�m missing to mention someone else here�).

I�ll just add this: What�s the best way to use private funds like XK(Model S)-20K(MSP)? Since I�m no expert and it seems to me to be a pretty complex issue I�ll willingly admit; I don�t know. All I�m saying is that a Model S to me seems like a pretty superior use of resources compared to a S6/S4/E63/C63.

I can try and give you an extended retort to the society-part but you or someone else in this thread will have to specifically request it. This post feels pretty long as it is�

derekt75 said: ?

and if I wanted a car that wasn't a rocket, we'd be comparing the 85kWh nonPerformance against the A6 that costs more like $40k, so the price gap remains. and no, that's not what I want.
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Just because you conveniently delimit (?) environmental externalities by rejecting to settle for nothing less than a rocket doesn�t mean that I�m going to. I call it thinking outside the box.
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SwedishAdvocate said: ?

I�ve managed to miss your thread about Tesla Motors. After reading that I got the feeling that what you really want is the electric car, and you�re saying it yourself:

But there is of course absolutely no need to get P6XYZ when you can just as well get PXYZYX instead. Now I�ve forgotten how long Tesla are saying they�ll need to complete the ramp up (1,2,3 months?) but after this period things should look a bit clearer if I've understood it correctly.

I�ll just add this: What�s the best way to use private funds like XK(Model S)-20K(MSP)? Since I�m no expert and it seems to me to be a pretty complex issue I�ll willingly admit; I don�t know. All I�m saying is that a Model S to me seems like a pretty superior use of resources compared to a S6/S4/E63/C63.

I can try and give you an extended retort to the society-part but you or someone else in this thread will have to specifically request it. This post feels pretty long as it is�

Just because you conveniently delimit (?) environmental externalities by rejecting to settle for nothing less than a rocket doesn�t mean that I�m going to. I call it thinking outside the box.
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Yes, I want the price of an Audi S6, the feature set of an S6, the body of an S6, and the maturity of an S6 interface driven by the Tesla's engine and battery. If I've been unclear on that point, I apologize.
Furthermore, I need to buy now. My baby doesn't fit in my current 2-seater. Well she would if I paid for a MB Baby Smart car seat that disables the front air bags, but that just feels too much like extortion.

I don't feel that I'm trying to "conveniently delimit environmental externalities by rejecting to settle". I'm saying that for similar performance (0-60 in the mid 4s), the ICE car is $20k less. When you suggested trying to save $20k by buying the non performance car, I'm trying to say that the less performance ICE is still $20k less.

My point remains: $20k to save 40 tons of CO2 is a lousy choice. If your goal is to save the environment, the best thing you can do is buy a cheap ICE and send your $80k of savings to a group that can use your money more efficiently.
If your goal is to buy a sedan with extreme performance and think that the electric car would satisfy you just as well as an ICE, you could justify a price premium of no more than $1000 on the electric car based on environmental considerations. Anything more than that and you're doing it to either make yourself feel better or to brag to your friends, but you're not actually helping the environment. Sending a check to TerraPass or the like would remove more CO2 from the world's atmosphere.

I'm an engineer. I work in numbers. I don't work in "well, it feels like it's helping", or "rail is good for the environment, so spending $100 billion on high speed rail in CA must be good". The numbers have to work out. At some point, the cost of the rail is not the right environmental investment. Argue if you want that the threshold is $1b, $10b, or $100b, but don't just say, "rail is good".
The numbers I've seen say that you can save more CO2 with $1000 than you can by buying electric. If you have proof that my numbers are wrong, show them. Until then, stop trying to tell me that anyone that can buy electric and doesn't is environmentally irresponsible.

Incidentally, I'm still considering buying the electric car. but the environmental consideration is worth less than $1000 to me out of a $100k automobile.
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Have you driven a model S?
the 20K extra does not need to be for the environment.

I'm an environmental resource engineer and I definitely think electric vehicles have far more advantages than their poopy counterparts
but do what you want (just don't forget to test drive one)

+ 'rail is good'. America just sucks (gas)
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derekt75 said: ?

Yes, I want the price of an Audi S6, the feature set of an S6, the body of an S6, and the maturity of an S6 interface driven by the Tesla's engine and battery.
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1. Do you prefer the ride and driving experience of the S6?
2. List the top (for you) 3-5 features of the S6 for which Tesla Model S lacks a competitive alternative.
3. Elaborate on the "maturity of interface" that S6 offers.

I'm curious and hopefully can be helpful given this info.
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Zextraterrestrial said: ?

Have you driven a model S?
the 20K extra does not need to be for the environment.

I'm an environmental resource engineer and I definitely think electric vehicles have far more advantages than their poopy counterparts
but do what you want (just don't forget to test drive one)

+ 'rail is good'. America just sucks (gas)
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Of course I've driven a Model S Performance.
The car is tremendous fun to drive.

Have you driven the Audi S6?
That car is also tremendous fun to drive.

As noted elsewhere in this thread [I know it's very long], Model S has a quieter engine that doesn't require downshifting when passing, doesn't require trips to gas stations, and is usable in California carpool lanes.
Audi S6 has what I consider a better interior, has adaptive cruise control, parking sensors, collision avoidance systems, center console storage, bugs (like wrinkling leather) worked out over years of experience, and other features expected in an $70k automobile.
Both are extremely quick off the line, have great suspensions, and have a well done traction control system. S6 is all wheel drive which likely more than makes up for a COG a few inches higher than the Model S.
If you think the advantages that each has are similar, then the $20k price difference would just be for the environment. In that case, it would be irrational to choose the electric car.

If you are an environmental resource engineer, how much would you estimate it would cost to save a ton of CO2 from being emitted? How many tons of CO2 would you say an ICE produces each year? How many tons of CO2 will be saved by CA high speed rail?
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derekt75 said: ?

My point remains: $20k to save 40 tons of CO2 is a lousy choice.
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I don't think anyone says that's the choice.

The choice is to help jump start the conversion of the majority of *all* cars to electric, along with a similar progress in solar (and wind, hydro, and other sustainable energy sources).

Also through this, the price of batteries (as for solar) will be reduced within the next years to the point where electric cars will not anymore cost more than ICEs (in many cases the Model S is already comparable).

I'm not sure why you say the S6 is 20k cheaper. The Model S Performance + tech package, in CA, seems $15k more, however *minus* gasoline savings, which can easily be in that range. You get air suspension, large cargo room, expected top-5-star crash test rating, HOV-lane access, and pre-heating and pre-cooling of the cabin, for example.

If those differences don't mean anything to you, for example because you want/need a smaller car, you might consider Tesla's future GenIII car, which will have a base price $20k lower. However Tesla will only be able to build it if the sales volume of Model S provides Tesla with enough profits to make the necessary investments. And that's the point in terms of environmental benefits, not the instant savings by the Model S you buy for yourself.
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I don't think you answered number 3, but you gave a lot of useful info.

My gut is that you have to decide whether the no-shifting experience of the S is enough to tip the scales. If it is, you can hope some of the features will arrive as future updates or upgrades. If not, it sounds like you have a strong pull to the Audi S6 that probably has some history to it.

Also, given what you described (unless I'm misrecalling) the new Roadster won't work for you, the X will be too big to give you the feel you want, and Bluestar won't have enough space and/or spunk for yah. So for at least the next 3 Tesla products, you won't something more appealing than the S.

Just an opinion. Hope this helps.
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brianman said: ?

I don't think you answered number 3, but you gave a lot of useful info.
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Sorry, I was replying to other messages.
By maturity, I meant that I think the Model S is likely to have more bugs than the Audi. Some of this might just be screen flickering issues addressable with software, while others might be harder to fix (like door handles being annoying).
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If you need the car within the next two months, you really should just buy or lease something else. I see no way to get your hands on a Model S within 2 months without a very large 'finder fee'.

So that pretty much settles it.

I'm very much enjoying my Model S and everybody I've shown it to plus driven it has very much enjoyed it. It is a very nice car and it will only get better, imho. I'm looking forward to getting a Gen3 for myself in a few years too, because electric is just so nice.
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Derekt75... I think you've already answered your own questions on this, from a purely Vulcan point of view, the S6 is the car for you.

But I suspect you have some subjective things nagging at you... that you can't quite put a number on. There are many people up and down this continuum, battling similar questions. Leaps of faith, etc.

I suggest you take a ride in both, again. Start with the Model S, then the Audi.
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SCW-Greg said: ?

I suggest you take a ride in both, again. Start with the Model S, then the Audi.
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And leave your checkbook and credit cards at home.
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Lease the Audi and out a deposit down in the S. see how you feel when your time comes around.
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I don't know if Co2 is really the big issue. Plants love it! There is a lot of other crap from gasoline. I think S6's are pretty awesome and If there wasn't Tesla and I actually needed a new car that might definitely be one I'd look into. I don't need or want adaptive cruise/blind spot warnings and all of the other features that I don't need at all where I live. We have nooo traffic. 1-2 min delay at the worst hour for traveling 20 miles. The leather wear in the S may be of concern? I like the interior simplicity over too much extras. I'm currently driving an older LS430 and it has many little compartments and things, which are nice, but unused.

I do miss classic stick shifts and shift my automatics like they are manuals so the S6 could be pretty fun. Accelerating from 40 - flooring it without shifting up to > 100 without a single shift and no raging engine may be more fun (and i can hear the birds still while doing it)
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Zextraterrestrial said: ?

I don't know if Co2 is really the big issue. Plants love it!
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Sure plants love it, but "we" are actually reducing the forests as well. So that aspect makes it even worse.
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I've followed this thread and I must say that it seems the new S6 (and S7 for that matter) is a great car. There has been a lot of talk of TCO with the S6 vs. the MS(P). I'd like to argue that in this price range the TCO is dwarfed by another, much more important achronym: TJO (Total Joy of Ownership). Now, whatever gives you more of that only you can say yourself, but it seems good advice would be to test drive both cars back-to-back and decide afterwards.
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One other thing that you could factor in, Derek (not sure you may care as much about it though) - you'd truly stand out while driving the Model S for quite some time to come; otherwise, you would be just another "boring" Audi driver...
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gg_wants_a_tesla said: ?

One other thing that you could factor in, Derek (not sure you may care as much about it though) - you'd truly stand out while driving the Model S for quite some time to come; otherwise, you would be just another "boring" Audi driver...
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Oi :smile:

As it happens, round these parts Audis are relatively rare still (in terms of luxury motors, Range Rovers and Mercs dominate, but still, Ford F150's are way more common).

You're right though, one of the selling points for the Model S is that it will always be a relatively rare car.
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Vger said: ?

The experience of owning an EV is NOT captured in even several test drives. Those of us who have owned Roadsters for 2+ years can attest to the fact that once you LIVE with a high-performance EV (a Tesla) for a few months, ANY ICE box seems just so inadequate and awkward to drive.
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You don't even need to own a high-performance EV to experience that, a Leaf will do the trick just fine
I've had the Leaf for a year now and will never buy an outdated ICE box again. I might trade in the Leaf for a GenIII in a few years though.
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teslamotorclub

Thứ Bảy, 7 tháng 1, 2017

Can't decide between Model S or Audi S6 part 1

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