Jun 13, 2010
jkirkebo Towing capability and a (preferably removable) hitch is a necessity for me at least, a lack of this would be a complete deal-breaker for me as I'd have to keep the Touran (we are a one car family and I plan to never own two cars ever again, my e-bike replaced our second car a couple of years ago).
But 1000lbsThat's pathetic and quite unusable for me at least. My current car, a 2005 VW Touran 2.0TDI have a tow rating of 3100 lbs, this would be at the very low end of what's desirable. I have actually towed 5800 lbs behind the Touran up a 2000 feet elevation change with no problems whatsoever.
A comparable car in size and power would be the BMW 5 or 7-series. The 5-series have a tow rating of 4400 lbs, the 7-series tows 4600 lbs. This is in the ballpark of what I think the Tesla Model S should also allow.
Also fastening points for a (original or Thule) roof rack would be very nice. Then I don't have to put the skis and snowboards inside the car :smile:
Also heating should definately be done by a reversible heat pump/AC unit, not resistor heating.�
Jun 25, 2010
walk_n_wind Adjustable "engine-breaking"
Being used to motorcycles and cars with manual transmissions, I hope the Model S exhibits the same deceleration aggression that the Roadster does.
However, because Tesla's appealing to mass-market customers with the S, my hopes for aggressive deceleration are low. Some people may prefer to roll freely when they take their foot off the throttle and rely on their squeezers to slow down. So my guess is Tesla will try to appeal to those used to driving automatics, but still retain enough regenerative braking to charge the batteries.
I have no clue how technologically feasible it would be, but it would be great if Tesla could expose a degree of adjustment in this area.�
Jun 25, 2010
vfx I would like them to make it an adjustable option like the EBox. I would say to bury it in a bunch of user setup screens but I would really like to adjust it more on the fly depending on road conditions.
Maybe the buried setup activates a steering wheel adjuster. My Infiniti has a toggle on the wheel when you flick it up or down it changes the Cruise Control speed setting in one MPH increments. When you hold it up or down it jumps (at a regular pace) in 5 MPH increments.
Same scale type adjusting could be applied to "Levels of Regen"�
Jun 25, 2010
AnOutsider Add me to the aggressive deceleration group. It just "feels right" -- though I know the masses probably prefer to coast.�
Jun 25, 2010
walk_n_wind It more than "feels right," it makes it possible to be smooth. It's much harder to drive well when you have to operate 2 pedals for *any* deceleration. And heavy or not, I aims to carve the twisties in this monster!
I'd like to think it also allows EV drivers to recharge more. I'm sure that last point isn't as simple as I imagine it, though...�
Jun 25, 2010
TEG The whole debate over regen aggressiveness played out with early Roadster development. Thankfully the sports car fans used to engine braking and those that think strong regen aids efficiency and pad life won out over the "since I don't have to shift I expect it to coast" crowd.
I suspect that Tesla has studied this consideration at length and will push to have as much regen in the 'S' as they can get away with. Their design philosophy seems to emphasize sportiness. (Although I would have preferred to see BMW as a partner rather than Daimler to make this more assured.)
Many higher end luxury sedans have different driving modes. Perhaps a button with normal/sport which offers more regen in sport mode? Sport mode could reduce steering boost and tighten up the shocks (assuming they have electronic controls) as well.�
Jun 25, 2010
Doug_G Personally I love the regen, and wouldn't mind it being stronger than it is now. I think a driving mode switch might be in order, like the T/C button.�
Jun 25, 2010
ChrisC I am firmly in the strong-regen column, but I also hope that the Model S will have a nice fat deadband in the throttle travel where you can coast. So you don't have to hit that one spot perfectly to coast -- give us a centimeter or two, OK?�
Jun 25, 2010
walk_n_wind I dig it - all but the shocks part, anyway
I figure if I want to coast, that's what cruise control is for. Otherwise, I expect to always regulate the throttle. But that's my preference more than anything else...
The battery drain of the power steering is another issue, and there's a great delete method here (applies probably directly to the S since they'll be using an electric pump like the MR2). But the S's wheels are, like, huge-freakin'-mongus. Both in diameter and width. So a complete lack of power steering is probably undesirable under 5 or 10 MPH in the S...
I hate when I get excited again about the S, and remember it's still 2 years away�
Jun 25, 2010
jkirkebo Yeah, those are going to be a bit of trouble when they needs replacing, 21 inch tires cost a fortune
I'm hoping they'll offer a more sensible 19 inch size for those who want it or need a bigger sidewall because of bad roads...�
Jun 25, 2010
stopcrazypp I think it is unlikely Tesla will be including those 21 inch Lorinser r8 wheels in the base model. Those cost like $1k each.
Most of the competing cars (starting in the ~$60k range) use much smaller wheels:
17"
BMW 550i
MBenz E550
18"
Audi A6 4.2
BMW 550i GT
MBenz CLS550�
Jun 26, 2010
walk_n_wind I'd be very happy if they did away with the 21's for the base model. jkirkebo called it - tire replacement would be miserable on those.�
Jun 26, 2010
dsm363 I wonder if they'll include those regen shocks by Levant Power
Not sure if they'll be available, practical or even applicable for electric cars but interesting idea.
Dave�
Jun 26, 2010
vfx Back then I got the impression the "no regen" or "light regen" came from wanting an electric car not too different from a regular car in the way it drives.
If that's the case, hopefully we (collective we) are over that now.
As much as I like heavy regen I also hate the brake lights coming on. I think about is constantly on the freeway and it is a constant, big irritating monkey on my back every mile.�
Jun 26, 2010
vfx Luckily the "want to coast" crowd is pretty tiny. It gains you nothing and is rarely needed vs regen.
I heard there is a possibility the power steering will be electric not hydraulic. Makes total sense in an EV. There have been other cars that have done it successfully and those units can simply be dropped in.�
Jun 26, 2010
vfx Or the ones from Bose. That would be some way cool bragging rights!�
Jun 26, 2010
KenEE I picture these stranded Model S owners on the side of the road jumping up and down on their cars to charge the battery
I'd love to see the S with something like this or magnetic ride control shocks like the Corvette or Acura MDX.
BUT, actually I'd rather keep everything as simple as possible to minimize delays. A gorgeous yet practical 160-300mpc <6 second all electric sedan is feature enough.
Ken�
Jun 27, 2010
tdelta1000 Here's a link to an article on the "regen shocks":http://www.autoblog.com/2009/02/01/on-the-rebound-scientists-invent-regenerative-shocks/
�
Jun 27, 2010
dsm363 Thanks. I assume they would add something like this if the cost was low enough. Especially if it helped out with the range.�
Jun 29, 2010
doug The regen/brake light behavior stuff went here.�
Jul 12, 2010
efusco How about integration with iPod Out functionality.
http://www.macrumors.com/2010/07/12/bmw-to-support-new-ipod-out-feature-in-ios-4/�
Aug 19, 2010
eledille But coasting does give you something. When you accelerate, you lose 10-15 % of the energy as heat in the motor, cables, pem and battery. When you regen, you lose another 10-15%, so you'll be lucky to recover 75% of the original energy. All the old gas-saving techniques like braking early to conserve speed, "driving without brakes" etc work even better with electric cars because of their efficiency.
Please believe me - I have three years of experience driving an electric car with only 80 km range. If you need max range, then use of the mechanical brakes is a minor disaster and regen should be avoided as much as possible. If you for instance approach a traffic light which turns red, you can increase range by regen-braking hard and early, and coast at the speed that will let the light change back to green again before you have to stop. I don't know how many times I've seen a fat Porche or BMW blast past me in the other lane, brake hard and stop just in front of the light, while I regen-braked early and kept coasting - when the light goes green, I easily outrun him to the next light with my 27 kW motor because I'm still going 35 km/h, while he's standing still. So I coast a lot.
Don't get me wrong, I love pretending I'm a race driver from time to time too - that's why we own an Alfa Romeo. But sometimes I need all the range I can get, and that will be true even with a 300 mile Model S. Most of the time, the roads are too crowded for spirited driving anyway.
I think I would prefer "roadster type" regen, but with a slight deadband for coasting. In a car with front wheel drive or four wheel drive, though, I think the addition of even more regen with the brake pedal might be good. There are limits to how hard you can regen with the rear wheels only. Regen on the front wheels or all four can be far more powerful.
All of this will be controlled by software, so the best solution would be to make deadbands, extra regen when braking etc customizable. A slider for adjusting deadband and another to shift regen between brake pedal and accelerator would do it. Leave the first centimeter or so of pedal travel to variable regen control. Only the AWD version might need additional regen on the brake pedal.
Question: Does the roadster have variable power regen, or is it all or nothing?�
Aug 19, 2010
ChargeIt! Variable. It is all in the right pedal. The deadband you talk about is part of the smooth and continuous right pedal travel, and some complain because the exact "dead" (or coast) spot is hard to find or maintain. True, you still need to have your foot on the right pedal, because if you lift just a little too far, you are regen'ing instead of coasting. But coasting is possible. I like your idea though of a slider for adjusting WHERE (and how large) the deadband is, including at the zero position (completely off) of the accelerator.�
Aug 19, 2010
eledille Good, I thought so. The reason for the question is that I recently read complaints that the Roadster regen is (too) strong, and also that the new Think and the MiEV regen are on/off, or at least the variability is so small that it is on/off in practice. The default regen is far too weak, like 4. gear engine drag, and the eco-mode regen is also weak (3. gear). So you end up having only two fixed levels of regen which you constantly have to switch between using the mode selector. Crude and a total pain when you are used to a better system. Given that the Roadster regen is smoothly variable I can not understand the complaints. Just wanted to be sure.
This is the same situation as with the new Think and the MiEV. I find it tiresome to keep balancing at the zero point. Keeping the foot on the pedal is not the issue for me, it is the balancing act that gets annoying. A small deadband would help a lot.
I agree with vfx (?) and think they should keep the brake lights off until the regen approaches 3. gear engine drag.�
Aug 19, 2010
ChargeIt! Which is sort of what they do. The brake lights do NOT come on immediately when regen starts. It has not been confirmed (from what I have read/heard) exactly what the trigger point or method is, but I believe the activation of the brake lights is based on the deceleration (# of g's), and -0.3g has been mentioned somewhere. But I also think the algorithm may be more complex at low speed.
So ... if you're going fast, 65mph on the freeway for example, and just lift off a little, nothing happens w.r.t. brake lights. You *ARE* already slowing down a bit (like the 4th/3rd gear you mention), but brake lights stay off. However, if you lift off completely, strong regen sets it (and the resultant deceleration with significant negative g's) and the brake lights light up. Where exactly is the "brake-even" (pun intended) ? Not sure.
When decelerating at slow speeds, g forces are smaller; so not sure when the brake lights come on or exactly how the firmware decides.
Edit: Anyone with better or more official info on the "brake light algorithm" ?�
Aug 19, 2010
eledille Sounds fine to me. Thank you. (brake-even - heh
Final version of my wish: An accelerator pedal zero zone or deadband where the car will coast freely. The width and position of this zone should be customizable within reasonable limits, to accomodate both those who want instant response and the more frugal minded.�
Aug 19, 2010
Todd Burch I don't anticipate that adjustable brake settings will be in the car...too many regulatory/safety concerns, I'd bet.�
Aug 19, 2010
vfx I don't like finding the Tesla deadband because my foot cramps up. Maybe other's don't but mine does.
As for the taillights (what thread is this?) When considering features I always envision a freeway of all electrics. With the current Roadster scheme applied to all those cars I would bet that a traffic expert would confirm that overall the flow speed would be slower since there would be so many red taillights coming on and multiple drivers behind them reacting to them. A slowing domino effect that will either make drivers come to a near spot or they start ignoring the brake light with other unintended consequences.
New idea: A special specific regen taillight. Perhaps the 3rd taillight only lights amber on regen.�
Aug 19, 2010
ChargeIt! Interesting idea. A sort of "caution" light causing other drivers behind you to take notice. And red brake lights only when you actually press brake pedal. Wonder if it's practical though ... hard to get the huge "oil tanker" (pun intended) of ingrained habits to shift direction and accept new paradigms
( Hate these emoticon; are those "eyes rolling" ? )�
Aug 19, 2010
Doug_G I was told by Hans in Toronto that the algorithm also looks at how fast you lift off the pedal. So it is a bit more complex than simple deceleration.
Because my car is Fusion Red, at night I can see the brake lights in my rear view mirror. The "cyclops" brake light at the top of the rear window lights up the area at the bottom of the window. So I've been able to see how the brake lights behave.
If you let off gradually, the brake lights come on at somewhere around 50% regen. They stay on until the car enters the "creep forward" mode, at which point they turn off again. If you let off quickly they turn on immediately.
FWIW I love the regen, precisely because it is very precisely controllable. You can ease it from slight acceleration to slight deceleration and back again; it's very smooth and natural. There's no way it is "too powerful"; if you don't want to decelerate that fast, don't lift off as much.�
Aug 20, 2010
eledille But it isn't brake settings, right? It's the accelerator!
On my Alfa there is a small distance from the start of the pedal travel to where the engine starts to react. As long as the mechanical brakes are there and ready, I would be surprised if you are not allowed to play around with engine drag/regen positions and deadbands on the accelerator pedal.
Oh, wait - I did mention brakes. But when everyone assures me that the roadster regen is sufficiently powerful, I trust you. Still, in a car with 4WD or FWD, you can regen with the front wheels, which makes it possible to regenerate really hard without locking the wheels. If the electronics and battery can handle the current, that is. In such a car, one might add even more regen with the brake pedal. The maximum pedal travel before the brakes kick in is regulated, but there is some space there. The old Think City 4, which there were several hundred of on US roads about ten years ago, added more regen when the brake pedal was depressed lightly. You are probably right that there isn't much space available for variability, though.�
Dec 28, 2010
vfx Originally Posted by SByer [On the Tall roadster owner thread]
The steering wheel hinders the view of the speedo for nearly everybody. That's why there's the digital readout on the VDS ;-).
You can't see when the "brights" indicator is on either.
They (all) design the speedo cluster to be seen when looking flat at the steering wheel. Great on the drawing board and in pictures but it ends up only working for people in the five foot range. I once suggested that they flip the gauges upside down. That way the needle sweeps the bottom of the circle instead of over across the top. Someone has probably done this. Probably considered "too weird".
Here is a suggestion for he Model S. Since the instrument cluster is all just a flat panel display why not have different height settings where the gauges move around based on the driver's eyeline. Each person's settings can be remembered like modern seat and steering wheel settings. Would be a cool techy thing that would set the car apart.
Of course a HUD would be even more cool.�
Dec 28, 2010
Kevin Harney Moving into the class of car that they are I think a HUD must be at least an option.�
Dec 28, 2010
TEG I have owned cars where I can see the cluster if I tilt the adjustable wheel in the most upward facing position, but end up intentionally obscuring the gauges by pointing the wheel more flat/down because I have heard you are better off pointing the airbag at your chest, not at your face. (In case of accident.)�
Dec 28, 2010
vfx Well the advantage of an adjustable wheel is that you can place it for driver comfort. That supersedes reading the gauges for me.�
Dec 29, 2010
doug Making that display a touch screen is probably overkill given how little use it would get. But a customization program that your could run from your PC or on the 17 inch would be nice (and likely too complicated for John Q. Public). Hmmm... even better, if you can do your customization via browser in the cloud and that would then be synced to the car via cellular data connection. Tesla has already talked about display "themes". Perhaps users could share their various customizations.�
Feb 11, 2011
Nik I'd like to feel a bit of feedback from the pedals at the 'go faster' end of this deadzone - a tiny change in the pressure required so that I can rest the pedal against it. This could also be set via software.�
May 16, 2011
vfx Why Better, Faster, Smarter Robots Will Not Pimp Your Ride | BNET
�
Oct 2, 2011
mt2 We've heard a lot of really nice features in the Model S, but did anyone check out our wish list? Here are some of the things I really want, which I assume the Model S will have. Can anyone confirm?
*Adaptive cruise control
*Folding and auto-dimming outside mirrors with memory feature
*Rear parking assist, camera or simply acoustic measure
*Auto-Dimming rear-view mirror
*Electrically adjusted seats with memory
*Blind spot monitor
*Lane departure warning system�
Oct 2, 2011
Citizen-T The Model S feature page does confirm that you will get your auto adjustable mirrors and seats with memory. Somehow you program the key for each driver and the car will automatically adjust seats and mirrors when the key approaches the car.�
Oct 2, 2011
cinergi We also know there's a rear camera and I read somewhere else here that there's no ACC planned for launch (but possibly later).�
Oct 2, 2011
Kipernicus What happens when both my wife and I approach and enter the car and we both have our keys?�
Oct 2, 2011
vfx Not at first. Old car will not exclude it.�
Oct 3, 2011
dsm363 They said that's something they might be able to add back later to the 2012 model? That'd be great.�
Oct 3, 2011
AnOutsider Isn't RFID a bit more precise? So they could detect where each key is and give priority to the one in the driver's seat? Might not work if your wife has both keys in her handbag though.
Error: Does not compute.�
Oct 3, 2011
Doug_G I think it's based on proximity to the detector. Mind you my wife usually leaves her key at home, because otherwise she can't lock her purse in the car.�
Oct 3, 2011
NigelM She gets in first.�
Oct 3, 2011
NigelM Seat adjustment memory is a "yes".�
Oct 3, 2011
gg_got_a_tesla Absolutely! My (wife's) Mini acknowledges her 'touch' more readily than mine even if both of us have our easy access keyfobs in our pocket/purse.�
Oct 3, 2011
mt2 My 2011 Sonota can locate the key pretty well. Mind you, the car doesn't distinguish between her key and mine, but it does know what side of the car the key is on. Suppose I have a fob and am at the driver's side door and my wife does not have hers at the passenger side. She can not open the car, but I can. It knows if the key is inside or outside, and won't let us pop open the trunk even if someone with the key fob is near the driver's door. I'm guessing there just a lot of RFID detectors located around the car. If Hyundai can do it, I'm sure Tesla can do better.
So, yeah, if your wife has both fobs, she better be driving.�
Oct 3, 2011
strider My Corvette could usually tell which key was in the driver's seat but if not there was a "driver button" to manually select which driver's settings you wanted.�
Oct 3, 2011
WhiteKnight This is a feature I would really like to see. Have it on both of our cars and it has been very useful for my wife and I.�
Oct 5, 2011
NigelM The window controls in the Betas were borrowed from Mercedes but do contain mirror control buttons also:
�
Oct 5, 2011
AnOutsider Ditto. I guess I posted in the wrong thread before but:
* Blind Spot Monitor
* Cruise control (adaptive is great, but not needed)
* HUD�
Oct 5, 2011
Lloyd Adaptive cruise control with settings to 50' or less to allow drafting easily. Driving at 50' without it will wear you out mentally as it requires additional attention.�
Oct 5, 2011
Kevin Harney I can guarantee they will NEVER allow drafting at 50' to be a set cruise control. Too much liability. Best my BMW will do is 1 second.�
Oct 5, 2011
WhiteKnight We said on another thread that we would love to see ventilated / cooled seats (especially if you've got the panoramic sunroof).�
Oct 5, 2011
cinergi Pre-heat the battery pack while not plugged in (to the point where regen can be enabled).
I talked to Dan (don't know last name -- an engineer at Tesla ... ~employee #30; knows the electrical systems) who said the platform can certainly support it, and that this is an interesting idea (didn't believe it was implemented or that there were plans to do so). Would be great to at least be able to tell the car to heat the batteries (while not plugged in) via the iPhone app much like you can change the cabin temp.�
Oct 6, 2011
jkirkebo I read somewhere that Mercedes goes UP to 2 second. Useless feature then as the recommended distance is 3 seconds.�
Oct 6, 2011
vfx Maybe if the batteries got warm enough they could heat up the cabin!
Hot plate!
�
Oct 6, 2011
Lloyd I can currently set my Mercedes to 100' as the closest distance.�
Oct 6, 2011
Kevin Harney I have 3 settings on my BMW. They do not say exactly what they are. But my guess from timing it in my head as a pass things is that they are 1 second, 1.5 seconds and 2 seconds. Even the 2 second one is way further than it should be and I usually use the 1.5 second setting. 2 seconds is so far behind that people cut you off to get in between and one second makes me feel like OMG I am TOO close. .5 seconds would be rediculous to me anyway. 1 second is like 85 feet per second which is pretty close to the 50 feet mentioned in drafting. But half of that would be closer only it would be VERY scary IMHO.�
Oct 6, 2011
vfx As do I in my Infiniti. If the closest was cut in half it would be very hairy. Of course, only until I became complacent.�
Oct 6, 2011
AnOutsider Lane change blinkers/signals�
Oct 6, 2011
Nik The recommended distance includes a good chunk of human reaction time. If the cruise control can react faster than that then it can be just as safe whilst being just as safe.�
Oct 8, 2011
goyogi Looks like some sort of lane change warning system will be available. Took this picture of the passenger rear view mirror. Look at my palm.
�
Oct 8, 2011
vfx Too bad they have mirrors at all.
http://www.bnet.com/blog/electric-cars/the-incredible-disappearing-spare-tire-its-all-about-weight-and-space/4753�
Oct 8, 2011
MDR �
Oct 8, 2011
vfx In case Mr. T comes up behind?�
Aug 10, 2012
Discoducky Audi has just taken this off my wishlist: Audi bringing digital rearview mirror from racing to production�
Aug 10, 2012
Grendal As the comments section notes: it doesn't mean it will happen for the US market. It probably won't happen in the US market unless someone is willing to bump up against the NHTSA antiquated rules. Tesla might be willing to fight the rules in the future, but currently they've got to focus all their efforts on building cars. If Audi is willing to do it, then good for them, and Tesla can benefit from their work.�
Aug 10, 2012
vfx Pretty sure Diarmuid O'Connell and his team is not soldering wires and sewing seats.
They are already working on changing laws on the the outside mirrors with other makers.�
Oct 2, 2012
artsci We have the HD backup camera, which, on the display is far, far better than a rear view mirror. Much wider coverage, phenomenal resolution, and a much bigger screen display. Makes the Audi "innovation" look like child's play. I used it as a rear view mirror on my DC test drive last Sunday, with very satisfying results.�
Oct 2, 2012
contaygious They aren't really comparable are they? The camera is aimed way lower and is meant for parking.�
Oct 2, 2012
artsci Have you test driven a Model S? If not, when you do try it out as a rear view mirror. The camera provides a very wide and tall field of vision that covers anything behind you that you'd be concerned about. It also covers blind spots in the right and left rear corners of the car, providing some useful redundancy with the side view mirrors. I was very pleasantly surprised to discover this functionality. When my Model S is finally delivered I'll be using it as a rear view mirror in heavy traffic and other circumstances where I want an extra margin of safety.�
Oct 2, 2012
contaygious Good to hear! I did drive it, but didn't spend much time looking at the rear view and more time trying not to hit things in front going 80�
Oct 2, 2012
Robert.Boston Too bad that regulations don't allow the HD camera to replace the rear-view mirror (in the same location). Then extend the "mirror" horizontally and merge three cameras' views to get a comprehensive left-to-right rear view.�
May 6, 2013
Stealth MD They should definatley have surround view cameras (in the front, driver and passenger sides, in addition to the current rear camera). Something sort of like how Infiniti/Nissan has done is what I'm thinking of. They should at least make this an option on the car, if not standard. Another option I would like to see would be Adaptive cruise control and also the ability for the Model S to park itself as some of the newer cars do now.�
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