teslamotorclub: A College Student Rebuilding a Salvage Tesla Model S part 1

Hi Tesla Motors Club,

After many bidding wars at salvage auctions, I've obtained a Salvage Tesla Model S to work on. There are a number of reasons why I'm embarking upon this project, from career relevant skill development to simply because it is fun.

Particularly noteworthy is I want to see Tesla succeed in its efforts to make EVs mainstream, and eventually it would be nice to work for them as an Engineer in the future. Right now I am about 2 years away from graduation as a double major in Electrical Engineering and Japanese so by the time I graduate and would be eligible to work for them the model 3 will ideally have come out.

I'd like to support Tesla's model 3 as best as I reasonably can, and right now the only real thing I can do is try get actively involved in the bug bounty program. Part of the conditions of that program involve only working on a vehicle you have ownership on or explicit permission by the owner to work on it.

A salvage model S is perfect for this purpose because I have no warranties to care about, it's the only thing I can finance on my low income as a student, and it requires me to start from a broken down vehicle and work my way up to a functional vehicle. This rebuild process makes it so I have a very acute awareness of the impact of whatever security exploits I try to discover and patch as I will have developed a very intricate understanding of the model S design by the end of the rebuild.

Here's a quick primer video on the car:

I will post updates eventful things happen. If these thread updates are too infrequent for your interest in the project or relevant information shared feel free to listen in on the Tesla Motors IRC channel.

Sincerely,
Satosh
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I am very impressed. With luck, word of your project will get back to folks at Tesla HQ.
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Out of curiosity, how much did the car cost you?

Good luck with the project! Keep us posted.
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Just from following BTR's rebuild thread this is an expensive project to tackle.. how do you plan on covering the expenses? or procuring parts? Especially while in college. You financed a salvage vehicle?

I wish you the best and look forward to seeing your posts!
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Silverpnt01 said: ?

Just from following BTR's rebuild thread this is an expensive project to tackle.. how do you plan on covering the expenses? or procuring parts? Especially while in college. You financed a salvage vehicle?
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Covering Expenses: I have a good job relative to most student jobs. I also Referee from time to time to make a little extra boost for parts.

Procuring Parts: Yes, Tesla refuses to sell replacement parts. So it will be a fun scavenger hunt, a number of parts I will just machine replacements myself where possible. The only part I would rather not take any risk on is replacing airbags, it's a safety critical part that, while I know how and can repair... I would rather not take any chances.

If Tesla did sell parts, I'd be more than happy to pay for parts-only to make sure those expenses go towards the development of the Model 3, but until they do that money is going to a 3rd party market is seems.

Will not ever pay for service though as it defeats the purpose of the project.
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I'm surprised the B-pillar is straight enough for the doors to fit. It's one of the few steel components in the car. Normally I'd replace that. Side impacts are not easy to get right, as the doors must seal.

Behind the rear door isn't so bad as that could be banged out from the wheel well, assuming the sill isn't warped. You'll need to become (or buy) a good metalworker. And time to learn TIG welding.
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Edmond said: ?

I'm surprised the B-pillar is straight enough for the doors to fit. It's one of the few steel components in the car. Normally I'd replace that. Side impacts are not easy to get right, as the doors must seal.

Behind the rear door isn't so bad as that could be banged out from the wheel well, assuming the sill isn't warped. You'll need to become (or buy) a good metalworker. And time to learn TIG welding.
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Luckily, my intro to engineering (Project Lead the Way) courses in high school taught us TIG & MIG welding. University also has TIG welders and trains us to use them as well. Only hard part is getting the car and the TIG welder in the same location at the same time.

Found some more "concerning" damage on the interior... That likely will be a "cut out and reinforce with new metal welded on" job.

First priority though is getting access to diagnostics & getting the car to shift into drive... While I'm waiting for my keys to arrive in the mail from Copart I'm pulling the dash apart to get the MCU out so I can force it into factory mode (or even root it if need be... whatever is necessary to get diagnostics).

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I am very very glad that I learned how to TIG weld in high school, and have access to a TIG welder when I get to that point in time.

It's damage like this that separates the real men from the boys

Same B-Pillar damage from previous post today, just different angle and better camera:

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I think you want to do it right, and Tesla has very specific requirements. If so, never weld where there wasn't a weld before, and replace damaged parts rather than straightening them. This is difficult with the B-pillar, but if you must replace a riveted part, drill out the old rivets, and use the same size (steel, not aluminum) rivets, and bond with a Tesla-approved crash-safe adhesive like Lord Fusor 2098.

Then again, if doing it the Tesla way is not so important, weld where you will and clean it up nice so it doesn't show. Don't forget to wire-wheel before you weld, and use weld-through primer where needed.
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Nice project. Looks like you will have plenty of chances to work on your cutting and welding skills with this project.
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Edmond said: ?

I think you want to do it right, and Tesla has very specific requirements. If so, never weld where there wasn't a weld before, and replace damaged parts rather than straightening them. This is difficult with the B-pillar, but if you must replace a riveted part, drill out the old rivets, and use the same size (steel, not aluminum) rivets, and bond with a Tesla-approved crash-safe adhesive like Lord Fusor 2098.

Then again, if doing it the Tesla way is not so important, weld where you will and clean it up nice so it doesn't show. Don't forget to wire-wheel before you weld, and use weld-through primer where needed.
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Yes, I would like to do it right. Although, copying Tesla movement for movement without mechanical analysis in one's choice of engineering software would be a poor choice in my mind as well. I'm looking for "Tesla approved" but not necessarily "Tesla identical".

Given that we are working with damaged metal, copying Tesla's original design choices might be akin to taking someone's words out of context. I'm not a mechanical engineer though, so I will be consulting with experienced automotive mechanical engineers on the design of such repair.

Although, Tesla & Insurance company alike are certainly vindicated in their choice to total the car. At this point I'm tapping into skills that are extremely expensive to ask someone else to perform. It's only because I'm a well rounded engineer myself that this level of intricate quality control is fiscally feasible.

I probably will do the design/mechanical analysis in Autodesk Inventor as it is a software I have previous experience with. Unless someone heavily advocates for learning solidworks instead.

It's facing challenges like this under a strict budget that lead to innovation in whole industries as well.
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Best of luck. Looking fwd to following
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Good luck with the repairs!
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Good luck!
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Most expensive camping tent ever (how to work on the interior at night without annoying the neighbors with your blinding work lights):

Inside the expensive camping tent:

Pretty much all of Sunday and a little bit of Monday morning accomplished getting the MCU out:

So now the quest for factory mode begins, neat.
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Hate to be a buzz kill, but car has very extensive damage on it. From the pictures the reason why the b-pillar is semi straight is because a jack was used from the inside to kind of straighten it so doors would kind of fit. Front by the a-pillar was pulled back and ripped by frame machine when they were trying to straighten it. Only way to fix this car properly is to cut the car all the way length wise and weld a new half on it. I have parted cars out that were in better shape than this. I think this should be a parts car.
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zhur0002 said: ?

Hate to be a buzz kill, but car has very extensive damage on it. From the pictures the reason why the b-pillar is semi straight is because a jack was used from the inside to kind of straighten it so doors would kind of fit. Front by the a-pillar was pulled back and ripped by frame machine when they were trying to straighten it. Only way to fix this car properly is to cut the car all the way length wise and weld a new half on it. I have parted cars out that were in better shape than this. I think this should be a parts car.
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So your thoughts are even if I reinforce the damaged sections, it's hopeless?

When the community's aluminum body expert thinks this, that is indeed disheartening...

Still going to consult with my Uni's automotive faculty advisor for thoughts though...
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satoshi said: ?

So your thoughts are even if I reinforce the damaged sections, it's hopeless?

When the community's aluminum body expert thinks this, that is indeed disheartening...
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There is no way to put a dollar figure to learning. Have at it.
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satoshi said: ?

So your thoughts are even if I reinforce the damaged sections, it's hopeless?

When the community's aluminum body expert thinks this, that is indeed disheartening...

Still going to consult with my Uni's automotive faculty advisor for thoughts though...
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Does the car have a drive unit?

I wouldn't give up hope just yet..... If I gave up when my friend told me there was water in the pack, my thread would have been 1 page long.

If your body guy says the shell can't be repaired, just buy my shell... (shameless plug)

haha.

no really buy my shell.
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Krugerrand said: ?

There is no way to put a dollar figure to learning. Have at it.
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Btr_ftw said: ?

I could kiss you.
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History has a tendency to repeat itself...

Btr_ftw said: ?

Does the car have a drive unit?
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OH RIGHT! I got so focused on the MCU I forgot to finish checking that... I should do that before continuing on the MCU.

Kinda want to go do that right now, but gotta pay the bills...

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I think parting this car out would be a great way to go. You'd learn a ton about how the car goes together, and what to look for in another salvage. You'd *probably* be able to make all your money back.

I don't think getting this car drivable will be super difficult. It will cost a fortune to get it to look even close to factory, and you'll never get it to be as safe as a factory car. Heck just replacing all the airbags will blow your budget. You'll never be able to replicate a un-damaged cars crash capability by welding in reinforcements. Crash safety is a very difficult thing to get right. The structure has to have just the right stiffness and shape to absorb the energy of a crash. If you make it super strong, then its just going to deform as intended to reduce the accelerations the occupants see. Of course if you don't care about that and just want something you can drive around, probably wouldn't be too hard.
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jaguar36 said: ?

I don't think getting this car drivable will be super difficult. It will cost a fortune to get it to look even close to factory, and you'll never get it to be as safe as a factory car.
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As far as looks go, when it comes to function vs. fashion, I'm a huge function guy. I will try to make it look as nice as reasonably possible, but I'm not expecting "factory quality" visuals.

Similar case for safety. As is, it is safer than me commuting to/from work via motorcycle. It also has better performance the my motorcycle too. So at a minimum it is better than that transportation solution. Honestly, even with the existing frame damage it is likely safer than my 9-year old Prius that I currently drive. So the reinforcements I would like to place are just extra icing on the cake although completely necessary.

Talking with the Society of Automotive Engineering faculty advisor, his analysis of the B-pillar was that all I'd really need to do is re-shape the metal and then throw in some high-density foam in the center to reinforce it and be done. He didn't think reinforcing it with welding was necessary, although certainly an option. His qualifications include 20+ years an automotive mechanical engineer, and one of the patent holders for regenerative braking (US6231135 B1 Glenn R. Bower).

My goal is to give a solid effort to make it as safe as is reasonably possible, but if "Tesla approved" is supposed to mean "factory condition" then I've misunderstood Tesla's threshold on safety and agree that is unrealistic. Tesla certainly has justifiable reason to have strict safety guidelines on production vehicles that have clean titles as it affects their brand image. However, such a strict safety guideline is not a viable business model in the long term.

Furthermore rebuilt salvage vehicles should not be held to the same standards as a regular vehicle... they literally brand the title of the rebuilt car for this reason. A salvage vehicle not meeting their factory standards of safety has no impact upon their reputation as a vehicle manufacturer.

If Tesla truly is to maintain the claim that "they will not compromise on safety", then they will need to start selling airbags unconditionally as requiring their own service and restricting the part is putting their economic, logistical, and political interests above safety. Even if they claim expertise on the relative safety of a car via inspection, if they truly are interested in safety then selling airbags without any strings attached should be a priority.

TL;DR I'm not claiming the ability to restore to factory condition. I am claiming that, as is, it is safer than the current Prius I drive purely because of the increased crumple zones available in front and rear. That said, if reinforcing some key areas adds additional safety at a reasonable amount of effort and expense it is worth it. Tesla also should sell airbags unconditionally if they really truly care about safety, any claim otherwise is malarkey.
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zhur0002 said: ?

Only way to fix this car properly is to cut the car all the way length wise and weld a new half on it. I have parted cars out that were in better shape than this. I think this should be a parts car.
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I appreciate your input and expertise. After consulting with an experienced automotive mechanical engineer, I have come to the conclusion that the repairs I will perform are more than sufficient for my threshold of safety for the vehicle.

In fact, strongly believe that such repairs would yield a car that is safer than my current modes of transportation (a 9 year old prius with no accident history and a motorcycle).

Thank you.
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satoshi said: ?

As far as looks go, when it comes to function vs. fashion, I'm a huge function guy. I will try to make it look as nice as reasonably possible, but I'm not expecting "factory quality" visuals.

Similar case for safety. As is, it is safer than me commuting to/from work via motorcycle. It also has better performance the my motorcycle too. So at a minimum it is better than that transportation solution. Honestly, even with the existing frame damage it is likely safer than my 9-year old Prius that I currently drive. So the reinforcements I would like to place are just extra icing on the cake although completely necessary.

Talking with the Society of Automotive Engineering faculty advisor, his analysis of the B-pillar was that all I'd really need to do is re-shape the metal and then throw in some high-density foam in the center to reinforce it and be done. He didn't think reinforcing it with welding was necessary, although certainly an option. His qualifications include 20+ years an automotive mechanical engineer, and one of the patent holders for regenerative braking (US6231135 B1 Glenn R. Bower).

My goal is to give a solid effort to make it as safe as is reasonably possible, but if "Tesla approved" is supposed to mean "factory condition" then I've misunderstood Tesla's threshold on safety and agree that is unrealistic. Tesla certainly has justifiable reason to have strict safety guidelines on production vehicles that have clean titles as it affects their brand image. However, such a strict safety guideline is not a viable business model in the long term.

Furthermore rebuilt salvage vehicles should not be held to the same standards as a regular vehicle... they literally brand the title of the rebuilt car for this reason. A salvage vehicle not meeting their factory standards of safety has no impact upon their reputation as a vehicle manufacturer.

If Tesla truly is to maintain the claim that "they will not compromise on safety", then they will need to start selling airbags unconditionally as requiring their own service and restricting the part is putting their economic, logistical, and political interests above safety. Even if they claim expertise on the relative safety of a car via inspection, if they truly are interested in safety then selling airbags without any strings attached should be a priority.
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CLIFF NOTES "It will be good enough"
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Or as my grandfather used to say
It's good enough for who it's for.
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Btr_ftw said: ?

CLIFF NOTES "It will be good enough"
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I suck at being concise, thanks.
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Tesla will not compromise on safety of cars that is the whole reason they are giving this salvage cold shoulder. If someone dies in a Model S or if it starts on fire in a collision because body was not fixed properly and was not able to protect the battery during a crash, news channels are not going to say a "Salvage model S started on fire because it was not properly repaired" . They are going to say Tesla electric car started on fire people died! A salvage car should always be just as safe as a non salvage car. I'm sure you can spray foam in there and throw 5lb of bondo and drive the car around. In my book its not really fixing the car unless its within factory specs. You can just take all airbags out, take out all the doors cut off the roof and have a model s convertible, and you can argue that its still is safer than a motorcycle. If some one comes to our shop and just tells us, pull it a little here throw some bondo there, we will not do its too much of a liability. Car manufacturers spend 10's of millions of dollars to research and develop a car as safe as possible by butchering the car you throw all that research away.
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zhur0002 said: ?

Tesla will not compromise on safety of cars that is the whole reason they are giving this salvage cold shoulder. If someone dies in a Model S or if it starts on fire in a collision because body was not fixed properly and was not able to protect the battery during a crash, news channels are not going to say a "Salvage model S started on fire because it was not properly repaired" . They are going to say Tesla electric car started on fire people died! A salvage car should always be just as safe as a non salvage car. I'm sure you can spray foam in there and throw 5lb of bondo and drive the car around. In my book its not really fixing the car unless its within factory specs. You can just take all airbags out, take out all the doors cut off the roof and have a model s convertible, and you can argue that its still is safer than a motorcycle. If some one comes to our shop and just tells us, pull it a little here throw some bondo there, we will not do its too much of a liability. Car manufacturers spend 10's of millions of dollars to research and develop a car as safe as possible by butchering the car you throw all that research away.
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Huh, where have I heard that before?

satoshi said: ?

The problem is not your intention, the problem is that most likely the media will jump at the story without giving you the opportunity to clarify the situation.
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Oh yeah... now we've come full circle.

So let's focus on the main point, "Tesla will not compromise on safety."

Tesla is already compromising on safety by not selling airbags to salvage vehicles unconditionally.

Yes, Tesla is concerned about bad press, but if your concern is "Death while in a salvage Tesla Model S" then airbags are a good tool to prevent death in a model S. Restricting access to airbags increases the possibility of death because it encourages salvage owners to drive their vehicle without airbags.

In my case, I have the requisite skills to fit a different manufacturer's airbags to my model S and if Tesla doesn't change it's mind, will do so, pass salvage inspection, and be driving to my hearts content.

The parts ban is not effective at preventing salvage cars from getting on the road. Watch this thread & BTR's thread for an example. In fact, the parts ban is counter-productive as it encourages people to purchase used parts from other salvage vehicles that do not have as high quality as OEM parts. There is already a proliferation of used parts for this purpose.

I'll tell you what is effective though, giving reasonable quotes for parts and service so that way an insurance company doesn't total the car in the first place. This would dramatically decrease the number of repairable salvage cars available at salvage auctions.

It would also stop insurance companies from raising the cost to insure a Tesla model S. It would make sure insurance companies don't decide that a model S is uninsurable. If the model S is deemed uninsurable, guess what's likely to happen next? The model 3 isn't even given a chance to prove itself and insurance companies just outright won't insure a Tesla vehicle.

Tesla is slowly killing itself with this parts ban.

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The major fire prevention device in the model S is the pyroswitch that cuts off high voltage when the car is in an accident. I will be replacing that part. If there are more fire suppression devices you'd like me to inspect, please let me know so I can make sure they are properly operational.

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zhur0002 said: ?

Car manufacturers spend 10's of millions of dollars to research and develop a car as safe as possible by butchering the car you throw all that research away.
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They do indeed, and as a person actively involved in research and development I have absolute respect for this research.

It is because of this high quality research that Tesla has conducted that I will be driving in a car that is safer than what other cars I presently own.

If the response then becomes "Tesla doesn't care if you die in a Toyota car crash." Then this further proves that Tesla already compromises on safety.
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I don't agree with tesla's policy by any means them not selling parts to black listed cars. I also see a reason why they are doing it, they are trying to control cars and make sure that they are properly repaired. Tesla was happy to sell me an airbag, once their certified shop approved that my car was fixed within factory standard, in fact they even installed it for free. Tesla actually paid more money to their certified body shop to look at my car and tell them that it was repaired properly than what I paid for the re-certification process. If they did not make money on this recertification process it leaves me to think that they did it because they care about their image and they are concerned with safety of a model S owner.
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Pyrofuse works great to create an open in the HVIL but if an object punctures through the bat it will not reduce a risk of fire. Rockers are very strong in a model S the entire rocker has a honeycomb patterned aluminum cross member going through it. It is there to protect the battery from side impact damage. When your A pillar and B pillar was bent it pulled the rocker up roof down so that entire rocker is compromised. It is probably strong enough to withstand another hit, but maybe not and no one knows. Its like driving with 3 lug bolts in a wheel it will probably ok but its not engineered so.
I also would love to know how you plan to work aluminum, it will not bend very much but will crack very good. Best solution is to get a car crashed in the front and use your front clip to fix it.
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Btr_ftw said: ?

CLIFF NOTES "It will be good enough"
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Wait... is this satoshi who's considering ignoring Tesla's standards in repairing a Model S, and knowingly putting it on the road where it may indeed be less safe the same satoshi who was adamant that attempting repairs that were not up to standard would result in things such as:

satoshi said:

Parts not being sold is a HUGE detriment to innovation, so absolutely not. You guys need to realize the seriousness of your actions and the consequences they've laid.
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satoshi said:

Buzzkill as I may be, this is why we can't buy parts anymore.
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satoshi said:

Part of the reason I got hysterically angry at you guys is feeling punished for something I had no involvement in, and that wrath was hoping to express to Tesla that not everyone is going to go about repairing vehicles so carelessly.
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And, perhaps the most interesting:

satoshi said:

The problem is not your intention, the problem is that most likely the media will jump at the story without giving you the opportunity to clarify the situation.
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??

Just wondering....
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First off I'm still interested in listening to your response to this:

satoshi said: ?

If the response then becomes "Tesla doesn't care if you die in a Toyota car crash." Then this further proves that Tesla already compromises on safety.
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zhur0002 said: ?

Pyrofuse works great to create an open in the HVIL but if an object punctures through the bat it will not reduce a risk of fire.
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Noting a distinctive lack of damage to the battery pack (inspected it on arrival while it was still on the 2nd floor of the transport truck), the risk of puncture is no greater than your average model S.

zhur0002 said: ?

Rockers are very strong in a model S the entire rocker has a honeycomb patterned aluminum cross member going through it. It is there to protect the battery from side impact damage. When your A pillar and B pillar was bent it pulled the rocker up roof down so that entire rocker is compromised.
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First, where did you get the impression the A pillar is bent? Are we talking about the same vehicle?

I'm having a hard time understanding what "rocker up roof down" is supposed to mean, I normally do not complain about grammar but it is affecting my ability to understand the meaning of your sentence.

zhur0002 said: ?

It is probably strong enough to withstand another hit, but maybe not and no one knows. Its like driving with 3 lug bolts in a wheel it will probably ok but its not engineered so.
I also would love to know how you plan to work aluminum, it will not bend very much but will crack very good. Best solution is to get a car crashed in the front and use your front clip to fix it.
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This was why I was more leaning towards cutting out and welding rather than bending.

If I were to attempt a bend, I would support the vehicle roof to remove stress on the repair area, heat the area that needs bending, and then work it into the fixed position. Aluminum will become brittle if bent at low temperatures, but if heated to sufficient temperature the aluminum will soften and allow itself to be worked with. Then when it cools it will regain its structural integrity in the appropriate shape.
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Well, this is going to get interesting. BTR pass the popcorn sir.
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scaesare said: ?

Wait... is this satoshi who's considering ignoring Tesla's standards in repairing a Model S, and knowingly putting it on the road where it may indeed be less safe the same satoshi who was adamant that attempting repairs that were not up to standard would result in things such as:
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Yes, and I pointed this out earlier in the thread. It's typically a good idea to change your mind when presented with new information that challenges prior beliefs. That's how one learns.

The fact that I've changed my mind should suggest that Tesla is unrealistic with its standards. It should also suggest that Tesla needs to place repairability as an area of improvement for future designs.

If Tesla would like to persist in maintaining unrealistic standards, I've pointed out already that it is an unsustainable business model. I detailed how insurance companies will increase premiums in response to this, possibly even making the car uninsurable before the model 3 comes out, and maybe making the model 3 uninsurable before it comes out.

If Tesla wishes to continue on a path of self-destruction, it will be throwing out the best attempt at making EVs the amazing vehicle that they can be. I have changed my mind because sufficient evidence has accumulated to support that I was wrong to berate BTR when I did.

Some points:

-I've consulted with an automotive mechanical engineer with significant experience to verify potential solutions to repairing frame damage. From there I've explicitly stated, that I will be doing a mechanical analysis of the proposed repair. I will also consult with a structural engineer sometime in the near future for more input. I would say that consulting with experts on structural integrity is about the most careful one can reasonably be when it comes to repairing frame damage.

"Part of the reason I got hysterically angry at you guys is feeling punished for something I had no involvement in, and that wrath was hoping to express to Tesla that not everyone is going to go about repairing vehicles so carelessly."

I still did not have involvement at the time the ban started, so you really can't pin the parts ban on me.

satoshi said: ?

I'm interested in your response to this:

If the response then becomes "Tesla doesn't care if you die in a Toyota car crash." Then this further proves that Tesla already compromises on safety.
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I guess I'm wondering why the media would not also blow any accident/injury/death out of proportion if a sub-standard repair was invovled, as you were so concerned about, if the bar for your car is:

satoshi said:

I'm not expecting "factory quality" visuals.

Similar case for safety...
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satoshi said: ?

I'm still interested in listening to your response to this:

If the response then becomes "Tesla doesn't care if you die in a Toyota car crash." Then this further proves that Tesla already compromises on safety.
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This discussion will not continue until you respond directly to this prompt.
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satoshi said: ?

This discussion will not continue until you respond directly to this prompt.
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You posted that in response to zhur0002.

Are you expecting a response from me in regards a question originally posed to him?
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scaesare said: ?

You posted that in response to zhur0002.

Are you expecting a response from me in regards a question originally posed to him?
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Yes. Now less avoiding the question, and more answering the question.

To recap:

-This particular salvage model S has damage that needs repair, but in current condition is safer than the alternative modes of transportation available to myself. These include a motorcycle and a 9 year old toyota prius.

The larger crumple zones available in the model S make it significantly safer than the Prius even with damage to its left side.

If the primary concern is how the media will react if I die in a car crash driving a salvage model S, yet driving the undamaged Prius is more likely to result in death in the event of a car crash, and Tesla is discouraging the use of salvage titles, it would appear that Tesla's primary concern is not safety, but instead public relations.
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Btr_ftw said: ?

Does the car have a drive unit?
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Just checked, yes single charger and the drive unit exists.

Btr_ftw said: ?

no really buy my shell.
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Aren't you intending to transfer the electronics from the P85 over to that very same shell?
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As one who has followed BTR's and this thread with great interest I think it is great that both are now going down the same path. I wish you both the best of luck and sincerely hope you both get your repaired Tesla's running and on the road. Keep posting and pass the popcorn!!
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Satoshi, I'm not sure that I'm following your logic:

"Tesla doesn't care if you die in a Toyota car crash." Then this further proves that Tesla already compromises on safety.

What does Toyota have to do with Tesla?

I do know that tesla cares about pedestrians. Hood hinges are reinforced by a very fragile rivet that will break and allow hood to move to make injury less severe. Additionaly, they made cars equipped with accident avoidance, car will slow itself down if it thinks it will crash. This will make an accident less severe so there will be less chance of an injury to both parties in event of an accident. (Even if a tesla is involved in a crash with Toyota)

Let me clarify what I meant by your A-pillar. The area where your front door mounts, that looks all bent and damaged.

What I'm saying is when the entire side of the car bends in it will make distance between the roof and floor smaller. In other words bending the B-pillar will make it shorter. Since it is riveted and glued both to the roof and the rocker it will pull down on the roof and pull up on the floor and the rocker. Pulling up on the rocker compromises its position to properly brace the battery in case of the impact. I'm sure it moved a very small amount, but I can guarantee that it moved.

I agree with you 100% that your battery from the underside is just as sound as a bat in a non accident car for puncture resistance. From a side impact its a different story. If rocker is not in the right position and is weakened by a damaged b-pillar battery case will take more impact increasing the chance for it to crack and short out the modules.

I'm sure it is way over engineered like most of the model S and you are not planning on crashing the car, so it should be just fine!
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I suspect you're about to learn more about finance than engineering.
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zhur0002 said: ?

"Tesla doesn't care if you die in a Toyota car crash." Then this further proves that Tesla already compromises on safety.

What does Toyota have to do with Tesla?
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What does the media have to do with me?

eye.surgeon said: ?

I suspect you're about to learn more about finance than engineering.
Click to expand...

I'm fully aware that I will be paying a lot on interest. I told the banker flat out, "You're going to be making a killing off of me financing this, and I'm fully prepared to be paying well past the life of the car when it's running".

It's a skill development opportunity that I think is worth the opportunity cost, interest, and them some.
�

scaesare said: ?

Wait... is this satoshi who's considering ignoring Tesla's standards in repairing a Model S, and knowingly putting it on the road where it may indeed be less safe the same satoshi who was adamant that attempting repairs that were not up to standard would result in things such as:

And, perhaps the most interesting:

??

Just wondering....
Click to expand...

As soon as this thread started, I was waiting for the first person call him out on the hypocrisy. Pass the popcorn.
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satoshi said: ?

What does the media have to do with me?
Click to expand...

The fact that you ask this question proves that you're in over your head and that success in this is going to be a huge challenge. As it's been pointed out before...no, Tesla doesn't really care *that much* if you were to kill yourself driving a Toyota, motorcycle, or fisher price big wheels. That doesn't impact their business. Their business could be very significantly impacted if someone dies in a poorly repaired Tesla, as that minor detail is never going to make it in the headlines. Tesla knows that FUD is their number one threat.
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satoshi said: ?

Yes.
Click to expand...

OK, I'll play along (despite your curious conversation expectation), here's my answer:

As a corporation I believe it's outside the scope of Tesla to be able to be concerned about all aspects of every other manufacturer's business. As individuals within the corporation, I'm sure they are concerned about the lives of all people in general.

Bonus answer: Your question is a strawman that attempts to side step your earlier assertion that the issue was giving the media fodder by meddling in a Tesla repair that would not be up to the original standards of the vehicle.

In attempting to compare the relative safety of your suggested repair to some other vehicle, you either:

Invalidate your earlier stance

or

Allow that something more extreme is also OK:

"Although my Tesla repair is substandard, it's ok because it's safer than the rattle-trap 27 year old Pinto I drive today. Also, I've received no letter from Tesla expressing their concern for the death-mobile I'm driving, so they don't care about me. I also suspect they kill puppies."
?

To be honest, I'm as interested in following your repair odyssey as much as BTR's (or Otmar's journey before him). I just don't care for the double standard.
�

brantse said: ?

The fact that you ask this question proves that you're in over your head and that success in this is going to be a huge challenge. As it's been pointed out before...no, Tesla doesn't really care *that much* if you were to kill yourself driving a Toyota, motorcycle, or fisher price big wheels. That doesn't impact their business. Their business could be very significantly impacted if someone dies in a poorly repaired Tesla, as that minor detail is never going to make it in the headlines. Tesla knows that FUD is their number one threat.
Click to expand...

No, not really... Social awareness and technical skills are completely independent of each other.

Furthermore, I would think it is quite obvious that the real point being conveyed by asking the rhetorical question "What does the media have to do with me?" is relating Tesla holding me responsible for the media's actions as equally unfair as me holding Tesla responsible for Toyota's problems.
�

satoshi said: ?

The parts ban is not effective at preventing salvage cars from getting on the road. Watch this thread & BTR's thread for an example. In fact, the parts ban is counter-productive as it encourages people to purchase used parts from other salvage vehicles that do not have as high quality as OEM parts. There is already a proliferation of used parts for this purpose..
Click to expand...

Actually, it is. Many states require receipts for new airbags before a salvage vehicle is allowed to be legally driven on the road. By restricting the sale of the airbags, they prevent salvage cars from being put back on the road without being properly repaired.
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CuriousG said: ?

As soon as this thread started, I was waiting for the first person call him out on the hypocrisy. Pass the popcorn.
Click to expand...

I fail to see the hypocrisy here when I'm doing everything reasonably possible to maintain safety, going so far as to conduct a complex mechanical analysis with the review of experienced automotive mechanical engineers on the repair, while at that time BTR was showing very little care toward his lithium-ion cells.
�

I wonder how watching this thread is going to go when I put satoshi on "ignore". The complete lack of willingness to even listen to other people is killing me....especially after he continuously stoned BTR for that exact thing.
�

no salvage car is drivable as it is blacklisted and wont wake up. As such tesla has no bussiness seling pyrotechnics.
�

I don't know why but this is already my favorite thread.

satoshi, if you want I have 4 side curtain airbags from a different manufacturer, you can have them for FREE.

This is how I envision satoshi right now...

�

Btr_ftw said: ?

I don't know why but this is already my favorite thread.

This is how I envision satoshi right now...
Click to expand...

ROTFL!!! BTR (AKA, Village Idiot), please don't ever leave TMC.
�

scaesare said: ?

OK, I'll play along (despite your curious conversation expectation), here's my answer:

As a corporation I believe it's outside the scope of Tesla to be able to be concerned about all aspects of every other manufacturer's business. As individuals within the corporation, I'm sure they are concerned about the lives of all people in general.
Click to expand...

As it is equally outside the scope of individuals in society to be able to be concerned about the public relations concerns of every single company they interact with.

scaesare said: ?

Bonus answer: Your question is a strawman that attempts to side step your earlier assertion that the issue was giving the media fodder by meddling in a Tesla repair that would not be up to the original standards of the vehicle.
Click to expand...

I've never held the expectation that individuals, or even other corporations for that matter, can bring a car that has been in an accident back to factory specifications. If that was how my "stoning of BTR" was interpreted, then I would say I did not pay careful enough attention to how I worded my posts.

brantse said: ?

I wonder how watching this thread is going to go when I put satoshi on "ignore". The complete lack of willingness to even listen to other people is killing me....especially after he continuously stoned BTR for that exact thing.
Click to expand...

See below:

satoshi said: ?

Yes, and I pointed this out earlier in the thread. It's typically a good idea to change your mind when presented with new information that challenges prior beliefs. That's how one learns.

I have changed my mind because sufficient evidence has accumulated to support that I was wrong to berate BTR when I did.

Some points:

-I've consulted with an automotive mechanical engineer with significant experience to verify potential solutions to repairing frame damage. From there I've explicitly stated, that I will be doing a mechanical analysis of the proposed repair. I will also consult with a structural engineer sometime in the near future for more input. I would say that consulting with experts on structural integrity is about the most careful one can reasonably be when it comes to repairing frame damage.
Click to expand...

scaesare said: ?

In attempting to compare the relative safety of your suggested repair to some other vehicle, you either:

Invalidate your earlier stance
Click to expand...

Yes, I am stating complete agreement that my prior stance, wherein I berated BTR, is invalidated.

scaesare said: ?

I guess I'm wondering why the media would not also blow any accident/injury/death out of proportion if a sub-standard repair was invovled, as you were so concerned about, if the bar for your car is:
Click to expand...

Returning a car to new condition is not a standard in the automotive industry regarding post-accident repair.

Per the advice of a mechanical engineer with 20+ years automotive experience, it would appear that the idea of cutting out and reinforcing with new metal via a TIG weld is above and beyond the standards for post-accident repair in the automotive industry.

Whereas the careful handling of lithium ion cells is a standard electrical safety practice.

scaesare said: ?

To be honest, I'm as interested in following your repair odyssey as much as BTR's (or Otmar's journey before him). I just don't care for the double standard.
Click to expand...

The double standard comes from the fact we are dealing with two different industries...

I don't really think that it is a product of my creation.

Btr_ftw said: ?

I don't know why but this is already my favorite thread.
Click to expand...

Probably because we both knew I was to be falling on my own sword in the process.

[For people who read this thread at a later date and time, I changed my avatar to the adventure time gif BTR posted as of this post]

�

First off, best of luck with your repair process, I do hope you will achieve what you want.

However, as a metallurgical engineer, I feel I must at least indicate the danger of what you are doing (though I believe you are aware of it). I'm mostly referring to the repair of the B-pillar: welding v straightening. I'm not sure which you prefer now, so I'll argue both sides, and point out both risks.

Be aware that the B pillar is most probably a dual/complex phase steel. These are not super easy to weld as the alloying content is probably high. Are you positive a TIG weld will have the good heat input? Think about the fact that if you replace and weld a new piece (or add a strengthening piece), you add a heat affected zone (HAZ) to your structure, which will have both a softer and a more brittle zone than your base material depending on your welding parameters and your filler wire. As someone else pointed out, if Tesla did not place a weld and HAZ here, they probably don't want one there as well. On a structural safety part, I would not want to just place some welds and be done with it. Fact is you won't know how your metal will react, and if you could soften or embrittle your metal considerably. I've seen both happen, and none are what you want to have on the pillar which basically saves your life on a side impact, and protects the battery from being crumpled into a raging fireball of burning lithium in an accident.
Tl;dr: dangerous to weld unless you're absolutely certain of what you're doing. Get a welding engineer involved with automotive experience.

Secondly, bending the steel. Since it's a dual phase steel, it'll have some elongation to be able to take it, but the brittle zones (inherent to the steel to give it its tensile strength and stiffness) don't like to be bent. Like at all. Microcracks could occur, you can enduce fatigue cracks to form, etc. Fatigue is probable the biggest danger, as your car will drive on streets and will be constantly under different load cycles, which can enlarge the fatigue crack, and ultimately lead to failure. This is where I fear that the 'good enough for who's driving it' attitude can potentially be dangerous down the line, even though I generally also think in this manner.

Have you thought about bolting or riveting a strengthening piece? I'm no expert on this, but it might give you less headaches that a weld or a bend...

Lastly, be aware that welding aluminium is totally different than welding steel, and that the degree of softening or embrittlement can vary greatly due to the alloying content.

I'm not sure which way I would go, but this is not a straight forward solution. I don't want to discourage you completely however, I just want to preach caution and that you need to rethink and recheck every action you'll take.

Hoping it'll work out, interested in your progress.
�

The B pillar is one of the few structures on the car that is HSS (High-Strength Steel) rather than aluminum. It joins to the aluminum with fasteners and structural adhesive and is clearly a highly FEA'd part.

Even if you don't care about the quality of the repair, does that mean you will crush the car when you are done with it? What if you die in an accidental electrocution and your estate sells the car off to a young family?
�

WarpedOne said: ?

no salvage car is drivable as it is blacklisted and wont wake up. As such tesla has no bussiness seling pyrotechnics.
Click to expand...

Blacklisted cars are drivable. Tesla does not physically shut off your car. They will shut off supercharging and stop their support. I drove my blacklisted car for 6mo before I had it re-certified.
�

xveys said: ?

Get a welding engineer involved with automotive experience.
Click to expand...

This is what I intend to do when I get to that point in the repair process. I've been very clear that I am not a mechanical engineer and won't pretend to be one.

Also I just learned that the local technical college has frame straightening hardware and will get into contact with them about potential use.
�

satoshi said: ?

Just checked, yes single charger and the drive unit exists.

Aren't you intending to transfer the electronics from the P85 over to that very same shell?
Click to expand...

good, you are in luck then.

I'm referring to the P85 that was hit in the front, it would be a simple cut of the driver front frame rail and weld a new one on. All the panels are intact, body is good minus hood and front bumper
�

I drove my blacklisted car for 6mo before I had it re-certified.
Click to expand...

I'd love to read a blog post on this process.
�

Interesting thread! I was at a event with my Tesla when a guy came up aggressively badmouthing Tesla.
It seams he bought a damaged Tesla with a salvage title. The car had little damage and he easily restored the car in looks and operation. He drove the car and it seemed to be fine, but when he went to charge it would not. He claimed Tesla had turned the car off and wanted $25,000. to inspect the car and reauthorize it. He claimed he was going to sue. I have heard nothing sense.
Is there any truth to this? What have others experienced.

My car was hit in December. Left rear fender was replaced at a Tesla certified repair station, $11K paid by offenders insurance. The only issue I had with Tesla was a two month delay in parts shipment.
�

Solarwind said: ?

Interesting thread! I was at a event with my Tesla when a guy came up aggressively badmouthing Tesla [because of the salvage title status].
Click to expand...

Since it takes significant technical knowledge to own/operate a salvage title Tesla, this would be a good reason not to sell it.

Plus, AC induction motors have life expectancy in the range of 15+ years...

zhur0002 said: ?

Hood hinges are reinforced by a very fragile rivet that will break and allow hood to move to make injury less severe. Additionaly, they made cars equipped with accident avoidance, car will slow itself down if it thinks it will crash. This will make an accident less severe so there will be less chance of an injury to both parties in event of an accident. (Even if a tesla is involved in a crash with Toyota)
Click to expand...

Good thing the hood is undamaged then, eh?

As for accident avoidance, I will look into what is necessary to make that work when I get there, you guys are complaining about stuff that is months upon months away. I don't even have diagnostics access yet and you're worried about framework that is going to be completed something like near the end of the project"

zhur0002 said: ?

The area where your front door mounts, that looks all bent and damaged.
Click to expand...

Not sure if I will or will not do something about that, at the moment not worrying about it until I have diagnostics & cleared all faults. It's at that point I will begin more significant mechanical analysis and determine whether a shell swap or repair is the better choice.

zhur0002 said: ?

What I'm saying is when the entire side of the car bends in it will make distance between the roof and floor smaller. In other words bending the B-pillar will make it shorter. Since it is riveted and glued both to the roof and the rocker it will pull down on the roof and pull up on the floor and the rocker. Pulling up on the rocker compromises its position to properly brace the battery in case of the impact. I'm sure it moved a very small amount, but I can guarantee that it moved.
Click to expand...

We'll take that into consideration when designing the repair if that route is taken.

Btr_ftw said: ?

good, you are in luck then.

I'm referring to the P85 that was hit in the front, it would be a simple cut of the driver front frame rail and weld a new one on. All the panels are intact, body is good minus hood and front bumper
Click to expand...

When I get to the point of worrying about the body work I'll consider it.
�

Btr_ftw said: ?

Click to expand...

If BTRs got popcorn, you know there's extra salt.
�

HEY GUYS, CHECKOUT THIS COOL PROJECT, I'M REBUILDING A SALVAGE TESL...

�

Well I realized quite some time ago I was wrong to berate you, and if the best way to right that wrong is to start my own thread and open myself to my share of criticisms/the wrath of the community for my own salvage rebuild then so be it.
�

WarpedOne said: ?

I'd love to read a blog post on this process.
Click to expand...

Had to sign some non-disclosure documents with Tesla so can't really talk about it. All I will say it was a very long process and with the tools and knowledge that I have now I will probably not do it again. Process took almost 6 mo but granted I did have some complications. Should of taken about a month if everything would of went right.

All black listed cars will move under their own power if repaired correctly. Problem is people have no tools or diagnostic equipment to repair them correctly so when car does not turn on due to some malfunction they are very quick to blame Tesla for turning the car off. Ingineer and I have dealt with quite a few salvage vehicles some of which were blacklisted and when repaired properly they were are drivable without tesla's certification.
�

Ingineer said: ?

The B pillar is one of the few structures on the car that is HSS (High-Strength Steel) rather than aluminum. It joins to the aluminum with fasteners and structural adhesive and is clearly a highly FEA'd part.

Even if you don't care about the quality of the repair, does that mean you will crush the car when you are done with it? What if you die in an accidental electrocution and your estate sells the car off to a young family?
Click to expand...

To be clear, just because I don't agree with Tesla's standards, does NOT mean that I do not care about the quality of the repair.

If I did not care about the quality of the repair, I wouldn't take the time and effort to do a FEA on the proposed repairs in relevant software, or consult with people who have expertise in the relevant sub-field of engineering.
�

jaguar36 said: ?

Actually, it is. Many states require receipts for new airbags before a salvage vehicle is allowed to be legally driven on the road. By restricting the sale of the airbags, they prevent salvage cars from being put back on the road without being properly repaired.
Click to expand...

My state is one such state, and I can tell you no it does not and this project will act as my proof.

Just got off the phone with my state's salvage inspector asking him about airbag repair requirements.

-Used airbags that were undeployed from a VIN that is not marked as a stolen vehicle are OK.

So at worst we have a scavenger hunt.

-Re-purposing airbags from another manufacturer is something that he's never been asked before so he is asking people higher on the food chain for their input on the proposal.

If this works, then I can use this until I find the relevant used airbag or Tesla wises up and unconditionally sells airbags.

As I said earlier, denying people access to new airbags is not going to prevent salvage vehicles from getting on the road it only will make salvage vehicles more dangerous and the problem worse.

There are also loopholes in titling laws that make it possible to make the car in its present condition legal to drive in some states... Which is infuriatingly disturbing to learn of and incredibly unethical in my view.

I am not saying I will do this, I am simply refuting the effectiveness of a parts ban by pointing out the existence of these titling loopholes.
�

Ingineer said: ?

Even if you don't care about the quality of the repair, does that mean you will crush the car when you are done with it? What if you die in an accidental electrocution and your estate sells the car off to a young family?
Click to expand...

So now hypothetical dead me is supposedly held responsible for the actions of the living? Seriously, WTF?

I'll figure out where I stand on the matter of "Is this ethical to sell to anyone else?" when the bodywork is said and done. We could speculate endlessly about the damage, but again we're getting way ahead of ourselves here. I gotta get the car driving first.
�

I got about two pages into this thread. Very interesting. However, Tesla will never activate this car. If the title has been branded salvage, then Tesla has disabled it and no amount of repairing will wake it and Tesla will not activate it unless it was repaired to their standards.
�

sorka said: ?

I got about two pages into this thread. Very interesting. However, Tesla will never activate this car. If the title has been branded salvage, then Tesla has disabled it and no amount of repairing will wake it and Tesla will not activate it unless it was repaired to their standards.
Click to expand...

That's fine, I will activate the car on my own.
�

satoshi said: ?

That's fine, I will activate the car on my own.
Click to expand...

That would be a neat trick
�

No, not really.
�

Just for the record, that response was "No, not really" before being edited.
�

sorka said: ?

Just for the record, that response was "No, not really" before being edited.
Click to expand...

I figured the gif would be more humorous, but if you really want the words along with it, I'll put them back.
�

satoshi said: ?

Well I realized quite some time ago I was wrong to berate you, and if the best way to right that wrong is to start my own thread and open myself to my share of criticisms/the wrath of the community for my own salvage rebuild then so be it.
Click to expand...

So when you had this "Eureka!" moment some time ago, did you apologize to btr? It wasn't until the haters came out you had this change of heart.
�

satoshi said: ?

To be clear, just because I don't agree with Tesla's standards, does NOT mean that I do not care about the quality of the repair.

If I did not care about the quality of the repair, I wouldn't take the time and effort to do a FEA on the proposed repairs in relevant software, or consult with people who have expertise in the relevant sub-field of engineering.
Click to expand...

I assume the free consultation doesn't hurt either?
�

CuriousG said: ?

So when you had this "Eureka!" moment some time ago, did you apologize to btr? It wasn't until the haters came out you had this change of heart.
Click to expand...

I started to in a PM, but he stated it was water under the bridge, which indicated to me he wanted to move on. Then again, I really don't feel you have any business to be asking these questions though.

Furthermore, doing so in private still would leave the matter unresolved in the public eye.

Then also, there really isn't much of a way I could have avoided this happening because a good majority of people on here (or the internet) don't even read half the posts to completion anyway. Only real choice is to just wait for it to happen, and enjoy the show.

The only surprising thing is that a lot of really useful information for the design of the repair came with the discussion.

CuriousG said: ?

I assume the free consultation doesn't hurt either?
Click to expand...

PSSSSSSH... Do you know how much tuition costs!? I am merely taking advantage of the resources I already paid for.

Then also, I'm sure if you went to your local university's professor's office hours and asked questions they'd be happy to answer or point you in the direction of resources/books.
�

CuriousG said: ?

So when you had this "Eureka!" moment some time ago, did you apologize to btr? It wasn't until the haters came out you had this change of heart.
Click to expand...

For the record, I don't hate... but rather love consistency.

(Oh and CuriosG, satoshi did not like! your post)
�

sorka said: ?

I got about two pages into this thread. Very interesting. However, Tesla will never activate this car. If the title has been branded salvage, then Tesla has disabled it and no amount of repairing will wake it and Tesla will not activate it unless it was repaired to their standards.
Click to expand...

Tesla doesn't disable salvage branded cars. They might try to disable Supercharging on them, but they don't disable the car itself.
�

satoshi said: ?

Then again, I really don't feel you have any business to be asking these questions though.
Click to expand...

I think as you mature you may find quite a few folks who feel that if you behave a certain way in public, that you've invited the public scrutiny.

If you subsequently do any retracting in private, that tends to appear as a ploy to save face.
�

satoshi said: ?

PSSSSSSH... Do you know how much tuition costs!? I am merely taking advantage of the resources I already paid for.

Then also, I'm sure if you went to your local university's professor's office hours and asked questions they'd be happy to answer or point you in the direction of resources/books.
Click to expand...

I don't blame you for utilizing what's available to you. My point was don't make it sound like you made an extra effort or went out of your way when this benefits you in every way.

What were their thoughts when you told them you bought a salvaged Tesla? WTF? Encouraged? Good luck?
�

scaesare said: ?

I think as you mature...
Click to expand...

My only concern with this statement is that I'm not too confident I will... I want to and actively try to but it seems to be just taking forever.

---

I HAVE NETWORK CONNECTIVITY ON THE CAR BABY! BOOYEAH!

(Now to just figure out how to talk to the damn thing via SSH while on Windows... Linux is more familiar though, I might have to install dual-boot linux/windows)
�

CuriousG said: ?

I don't blame you for utilizing what's available to you. My point was don't make it sound like you made an extra effort or went out of your way when this benefits you in every way.

What were their thoughts when you told them you bought a salvaged Tesla? WTF? Encouraged? Good luck?
Click to expand...

Majority of them just have smirk and a brief moment of nostalgia of when they were young and dumb and had their own stupid projects.

Everyone has been incredibly encouraging and supportive... then also a number of students have approached me almost begging to work on the car. Then an academic advisor wanted me to found a new student organization.

One prof gave me tips on proper splicing technique for the cable I made to get connectivity, another gave me resistors for a different test I will conduct later on.
�

satoshi said: ?

Everyone has been incredibly encouraging and supportive... then also a number of students have approached me almost begging to work on the car. Then an academic advisor wanted me to found a new student organization.
Click to expand...

Haters Gonna Hate Organization?
Meet weekly in quad sitting in dunk tank.
�

CuriousG said: ?

Haters Gonna Hate Organization?
Meet weekly in quad sitting in dunk tank.
Click to expand...

How about Engineers Gonna Engineer?

Very interesting project Satoshi, I hope you succeed!
�

All right, he's had his public beatings. Time to give Dude a break. Probably Btr would agree.

Unless you have your own frustrations to take out on somebody, anybody....
�

But it just started to "hurt so good"... ha ha.
�

If I already had linux installed on my computer, I likely could have proudly claimed I got root on my car before I had the keys from Copart.

Seriously though, WTF took so long copart?

Seeing as my car isn't flood damaged, went ahead and turned on the car to ask it to check for all its faults.

At minimum, we are dealing with 8 faults. Some are generic "Car needs service" messages so I won't know if that involves more issues until I get root/factory mode.

(Honestly though 8 faults is really not that bad considering what this car has been through, I feel luckier and luckier as time goes by).
�

Electric700 said: ?

How about Engineers Gonna Engineer?

Very interesting project Satoshi, I hope you succeed!
Click to expand...

To be fair, sometimes my dumb ideas remind me of this:

�

satoshi said: ?

At minimum, we are dealing with 8 faults. Some are generic "Car needs service" messages so I won't know if that involves more issues until I get root/factory mode.
Click to expand...

So there are often a number of hidden faults and DTCs. I'd say you should always at least double the number. The car is actually excellent at diagnosing itself, the sad part is something like "DC-DC converter failure" on the internal "hidden" list will be displayed as "Pull over immediately - Car may shut down", or "Call Tesla Service" (My favorite).
�

Ingineer said: ?

So there are often a number of hidden faults and DTCs. I'd say you should always at least double the number. The car is actually excellent at diagnosing itself, the sad part is something like "DC-DC converter failure" on the internal "hidden" list will be displayed as "Pull over immediately - Car may shut down", or "Call Tesla Service" (My favorite).
Click to expand...

Yeah, I figured this would be the case... still <20 faults would make me really happy.

Checked out caliper from school to measure some port dimensions so I can source better connectors for network connection point.

CuriousG said: ?

So when you had this "Eureka!" moment some time ago, did you apologize to btr? It wasn't until the haters came out you had this change of heart.
Click to expand...

I took the time to stop and think about when exactly the change of heart took place, and it wasn't really a "Eureka!" moment but more being shocked and appalled at Tesla's actions.

When I witnessed Tesla retaliating against WK057 and committed some pretty damaging unethical practices in the process, I realized that Tesla really does not actually have the "strong moral & ethical code" that you all seem convinced that it has. In that moment, I lost a lot of respect for Tesla as a company and the "Safety First!" claims seems more just "We don't want negative press" rather than genuine concern for safety. It also serves as a convenient diversion from a parts & service monopoly that they are trying to establish. "But Elon said he'd be disturbed by such a monopoly." I don't believe him, and the company's actions certainly don't support such a statement.

So really, Tesla is going to have to regain my respect at some point in the future. A great step toward that would be for them to relinquish their parts ban as it would be a stepping stone toward letting the true owners of the car make proper repair and/or maintenance of their own vehicles.
�

jaguar36 said: ?

Actually, it is. Many states require receipts for new airbags before a salvage vehicle is allowed to be legally driven on the road. By restricting the sale of the airbags, they prevent salvage cars from being put back on the road without being properly repaired.
Click to expand...

As it is, I have already found 6 out of 8 used airbags. We're still under budget for the record on top of this.
�

Do you need A-pillar airbags?
�

Edmond said: ?

Do you need A-pillar airbags?
Click to expand...

For the record, the airbags we have been talking about in private are 2 of that 6 count.

If you have a competitive offer, I can cancel with the other seller and get the side-curtain airbags from you as well.

I'd much rather help fund a fellow TMC rebuilder than some anonymous salvage yard.
�

My side curtains are blown. But the A-pillar ones are not.
�

Interesting... I wonder how that happened, I would think they'd be on the same detonation circuit.

I'll see what happens with the current guy I'm purchasing from then, because it sounds he's giving me all "roof" airbags undeployed.
�

There are no separate A pillar airbags. The side curtains cover the whole side (A, B, and C pillars).
�

Ingineer said: ?

There are no separate A pillar airbags. The side curtains cover the whole side (A, B, and C pillars).
Click to expand...

Ok that makes more sense based upon what I googled for airbag locations.
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satoshi said: ?

Ok that makes more sense based upon what I googled for airbag locations.
Click to expand...

Or take the headliner out and see for yourself!
Its gotta come down anyway.
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Btr_ftw said: ?

Or take the headliner out and see for yourself!
Its gotta come down anyway.
Click to expand...

Yep, this is indeed an option too, although I prioritize getting root when I'm inside/working on the car at the moment.
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Ingineer said: ?

There are no separate A pillar airbags. The side curtains cover the whole side (A, B, and C pillars).
Click to expand...

Whups. Haven't been able to get the A-pillar covers off yet to see...
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You can't pull out the side-curtain units w/o removing all the pillar covers (A/B/C) and the headliner.
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Ingineer is right... there is one long curtain airbag going from A to B to C.
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�

Today consisted of a lot of unsuccessful attempts at getting root or factory mode. I'd be surprised if I had success this quickly, and I'm liking the challenge as it means success will be that much sweeter.

One thing I've noticed is that the internal SD card has some logs that could be used for diagnostics, but that requires me to disassemble the MCU completely to get at it's also incomplete information.

I have a number of ideas of things to try at this point, and I haven't touched the IC at this point in time, just trying things MCU only at this point in time.
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Satoshi,

I read your thread and it's very inspiring. My father is an electrical engineer and I'm an Architecture and Construction Management major working as a professor in South Florida.All throughout high school I took autotive tech in traditional internal combustion engines and ever since fixing cars has been a passionate endeavour for me. I see it as giving it a second chance. I was planning on taking on a model s salvage title as a father son project. I learned a lot from this thread and I look forward to seeing your success. I have torn apart and fixed many cars as a hobby and I'm a little skeptical about the model s. The one I'm looking at just has cosmetic damage bumpers fender and hatch. No structural damage but the seller says it doesn't run it needs charge and they have no way of charging it. I'd love your feedback if you can spare the time to give me insight on the potential of the project. It's over 1,000 miles away and it's priced over 20k now.

Thanks!
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If the seller claims it just needs a charge, tell them to hook a 12v battery or use another car to "jump" the Model S using the jump posts located behind the black "nose cone" on the front of the car. At this point the car will wake up, even with a dead battery and the center screen will show the state of charge of the main battery so it will be obvious if it is is just not charged. If there are any faults there will be a red exclamation point icon at the top left if the screen, and touching this icon will display a list of faults. They won't be very descriptive, but that should still give you an idea if there is truly anything wrong with it or not.

When a Model S is in an accident that is sufficient to deploy any airbags or seat belt tensioners, it will also fire it's safety shutdown system that disables all high voltage in the car. This is done for the safety of both the occupants and first responders.

In this case there will be a "car will not start" message in the error list. Also, even though the display will still show the accurate charge level of the main battery, it will not allow it to be used for anything nor will it allow any charging.

This simple procedure will verify if the seller is telling the truth and the reason the car doesn't move is just because it needs a charge.
�

Rafael C said: ?

Satoshi,

I read your thread and it's very inspiring.
Click to expand...

I'm flattered that my story has inspired someone... Although bear in mind I haven't really accomplished anything until I get root/factory mode.

Rafael C said: ?

The one I'm looking at just has cosmetic damage bumpers fender and hatch. No structural damage but the seller says it doesn't run it needs charge and they have no way of charging it. I'd love your feedback if you can spare the time to give me insight on the potential of the project. It's over 1,000 miles away and it's priced over 20k now.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Uh, I thought mine only had cosmetic damage until I REALLY started to take it apart. So there's a good chance yours will too.

If you can inspect it, do it, but if not just be realistic with your expectations, even with the dream team EE father & Structural Engineer son... I imagine it will take a lot of your free time. It will be fun, but not easy.

Personally, I wouldn't spend as much as you are proposing. There is no guarantee that as price goes up that the ease of repair goes down... It's all based upon which auction has the attendance of the right moron with the deepest wallet.
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satoshi said: ?

To be fair, sometimes my dumb ideas remind me of this:

Click to expand...

@satoshi
<--- This is f-ing hilarious, it's also the reason I hate name dropping and touting qualifications, just because you have a degree and a title (or PE license) doesn�t mean you know how to FEA your way out of a paper bag. So could we have less arguing about the morality of repairing a salvage vehicle (I realize that discussion was not started by you) or "I'm an engineer who knows famous professors who hold patents" and just focus on the technical aspects? Most of the people on TMC who are interested in this stuff are fairly low key about their CV since ones work always speaks volumes more. BTR's thread is a great example of this, wherein he reminds us that he is 100% not an electrical engineer, but that in no way degrades the quality/comedy of his work. More science and less philosophical discussion as Feynman would say.

Love the project and would be happy to help with any expertise (EE and mechanical related things) if you want, I've got some leads on the diagnostic connector (both new CAN and ethernet). Wish I was doing this myself but I'm building a house at the moment, which has a way of taking up most of my time and capitol (have you seen the price of toilets and lumber lately?).
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obrien28 said: ?

it's also the reason I hate name dropping and touting qualifications, just because you have a degree and a title (or PE license) doesn�t mean you know how to FEA your way out of a paper bag. So could we have less arguing about the morality of repairing a salvage vehicle (I realize that discussion was not started by you) or "I'm an engineer who knows famous professors who hold patents" and just focus on the technical aspects? Most of the people on TMC who are interested in this stuff are fairly low key about their CV since ones work always speaks volumes more. BTR's thread is a great example of this, wherein he reminds us that he is 100% not an electrical engineer, but that in no way degrades the quality/comedy of his work. More science and less philosophical discussion as Feynman would say.
Click to expand...

I kind of did start it by flipping out on BTR in his thread about his Li-ion cells.

I only stated qualifications to state that if I myself don't have the necessary knowledge I'll find someone who does and make sure that what I learn of their field is accurate and sufficient enough to be a proper repair. This, in my mind, conveys responsibility.

Note that I'm only an electrical engineering student so technically I have no qualifications until I graduate.

obrien28 said: ?

Love the project and would be happy to help with any expertise (EE and mechanical related things) if you want, I've got some leads on the diagnostic connector (both new CAN and ethernet). Wish I was doing this myself but I'm building a house at the moment, which has a way of taking up most of my time and capitol (have you seen the price of toilets and lumber lately?).
Click to expand...

I'd love to hear what info you have either via pm or email.
�

Looking at some logs on the MCU, it appears the DCDC converter isn't communicating with the MCU... it isn't getting a hardware ID # upon boot. So it would seem there might be a connection problem there, this explains some behavior I've witnessed regarding the car's 12V battery and other 12V electronics.

There might be HV problems as the MCU would send a command for the BMS contactors to close, but when it probes for status later they remain open.

This latter issue could be dependent on the DCDC problem though (I'm hoping so).

EDIT: Apparently... My parents now think I'm an expert at sourcing car parts because they bought a car that needs a front bumper for $1.5k and are expecting me to help them find a bumper. (-____-#)... (Not saying I can't do it, just saying I don't really want the distraction considering the size of the current project I already have, but alas they're allowing free storage of my project so...)
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Ingineer said: ?

If the seller claims it just needs a charge, tell them to hook a 12v battery or use another car to "jump" the Model S using the jump posts located behind the black "nose cone" on the front of the car. At this point the car will wake up, even with a dead battery and the center screen will show the state of charge of the main battery so it will be obvious if it is is just not charged. If there are any faults there will be a red exclamation point icon at the top left if the screen, and touching this icon will display a list of faults. They won't be very descriptive, but that should still give you an idea if there is truly anything wrong with it or not.

When a Model S is in an accident that is sufficient to deploy any airbags or seat belt tensioners, it will also fire it's safety shutdown system that disables all high voltage in the car. This is done for the safety of both the occupants and first responders.

In this case there will be a "car will not start" message in the error list. Also, even though the display will still show the accurate charge level of the main battery, it will not allow it to be used for anything nor will it allow any charging.

This simple procedure will verify if the seller is telling the truth and the reason the car doesn't move is just because it needs a charge.
Click to expand...

Wow that's some great info, the airbags don't seem to have been deployed and he said the 12v system works fine. I'm assuming that means the display activated and it shows zero charge. Is there like a standard 120 extension cord type charger I can ship to them so they can charge it at their facility?
�

That'd just be the Tesla Mobile Charger:

Tesla � Mobile Connector Bundle

Or, you could see if you can find a cheap J1722 charger and use this adapter: http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s/products/sae-j177
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Thanks for that charger lead csshih, and Satoshi thanks for the feedback. I'm definitely following your progress and I really wish you the best in getting it up and running.
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I think Satoshi should do similar design for B-pillar mod )

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A minor setback as I managed to break the touchscreen's video cable... It's a 30-pin FFC cable with 0.5mm pitch for other people who run into this sort of problem.

As far as getting root is concerned, here's my "progress":

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Spiderz said: ?

I think Satoshi should do similar design for B-pillar mod )
Click to expand...

Heh... With my crazy driving, probably a good idea actually.
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Thứ Năm, 5 tháng 1, 2017

A College Student Rebuilding a Salvage Tesla Model S part 1

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