May 4, 2013
aviators99 I just got the car back from service (13,000 miles). I'm pretty disappointed to report that they say that there is no problem with the battery, and my overnight 15 mile range loss is normal function.
I have a 5.5% loss for max charge and 3.3% loss for standard charge. They claim to have run diagnostics and everything checks out okay.�
May 4, 2013
Puyallup Bill I'm not too happy with that Vamp loss either. Last night mine was 9 miles from standard, which seems a bit higher than it has been.�
May 4, 2013
aviators99 I am not talking about vampire loss. I'm talking about range loss at the time a charge finishes (the maximum at either setting).
Edit: Sorry, realized my subject was confusing. I didn't mean that overnight I was losing range. I mean I lost capacity overnight, and from that point on, it has been 5.5% lower. I will see if I can get the subject changed to: Sudden permanent 15 mile loss of range is "normal"�
May 4, 2013
Mnlevin that could be a real problem if you want to go on a cruise or vacation and leave the car at the airport. 10 * 15 means you would lose 150 miles of range. Could be a problem getting back to where you came from... that doesn't seem right to me�
May 4, 2013
Al Sherman So you're seeing around 225 rated miles for a standard charge?�
May 4, 2013
wstuff I have found a few miles drop if I don't use the car after it has been on charge for a while, but I have backed the car out of the garage to get at things easier and then put the car back in and plugged back in and the miles mysteriously reappear, i don't think it's a case of degradation it may be more a case of battery temperature and gauge sensitivity that is actually measuring the charge.�
May 4, 2013
markb1 That amount of permanent range loss is pretty alarming. I'm still a little confused by what you mean by "overnight". Did you lose that 5.5% suddenly, in one night? That would be totally unacceptable, IMO.�
May 4, 2013
Todd Burch Remember the recent update that adjusted the range indication calculation based on pack temperature? Wonder if that's at play here and it's not actual degredation? It would go along with the idea that everything (cell/module voltages) checked out. Not sure the service guys really would know what normal degredation is.
This seems like an issue for JB to address.�
May 4, 2013
cinergi What version are you running? (did they update you during service)�
May 4, 2013
aviators99 No. 235 from 243. Rated now 258, from 273.
- - - Updated - - -
Yes.
- - - Updated - - -
They claimed that engineering checked it.
- - - Updated - - -
This started happening some time after the 4.4 upgrade.�
May 4, 2013
Oside2lv I only have 3500 miles on my MS and I have noticed some change in overall charge from time to time. I attribute it to temperature and battery reporting. I'm sorry to hear about your issue. Keep us updated as I'd like to know the final outcome.�
May 4, 2013
Oside2lv Do you charge to 100% a majority of the time or 80%? When I charge to 100% I get the battery longevity warning. Could this be a factor?�
May 4, 2013
rlawson4 Seems the common issue is the lack of information as to what the standard charge should be etc. Information would clear up a great many things.�
May 4, 2013
aviators99 Very rarely to 100%. Only 3 road trips and 3 or 4 high local travel days, compared to many Standard charges in my 13,000 miles.�
May 4, 2013
gregincal I think I said this in an earlier thread, but it's hard to fault them for losing range they didn't promise in the first place. A normal full charge for a new car is 265 miles. If you got more than that for a while that was a bonus. They are certainly going to only start counting range loss from 265 miles. That's only a 2.6% range loss after 13000 miles, which does seem normal.�
May 4, 2013
Todd Burch There's now word going around that rated range does indeed take driving habits into account. Someone on the Tesla Model S owners Facebook page said that a Tesla service employee from the factory told him this.
I don't believe it for a minute, but thought I'd toss it out there.�
May 4, 2013
Doug_G I believe that's a widespread myth among Tesla employees. I'm pretty sure they're just confused between Projected and Rated.�
May 4, 2013
rlawson4 I have been told that as well. I do expect a decrease in range. I just want the best information.�
May 4, 2013
aviators99 My understanding was that it would decrease somewhat gradually; not over one night. Do you really think that this is normal?�
May 4, 2013
gregincal I agree it's weird, but I'm not sure it's indicative of a problem. While I don't necessarily believe the thing of it taking driving into account, there definitely is software strangeness around showing miles remaining (look at the adjustment they made for reporting cold battery miles remaining in 4.3 that was entirely a software issue). If they say there's nothing wrong with your battery, I'd just believe them. If after another 12000 miles you've lost an additional 15 miles of range that's one thing, but otherwise I'd be inclined to just chalk it up to the mysteries of life. The fact is that your current remaining range seems normal. For myself I know the first time I did a range charge I got 273, and one month (and 1000 miles) later when I next did one I got 265. But since 265 is normal, I didn't really think much of it.�
May 4, 2013
mknox Oddly enough, my numbers seem to have gone up. When I got my car in early March I was seeing 239 Rated miles after a full standard charge. I then started seeing 240 and am now seeing 242. I am on software version 4.4 and have a bit over 4,000 miles on the car.�
May 4, 2013
Owner A service guy at Menlo Park did tell me that also! Don't remember his name as I had just gotten used to Johnny after Jake changed jobs.�
May 4, 2013
MikeC Sorry to hear that they didn't address this problem. I remember you reporting this in a previous thread and it seemed pretty excessive to me, not in line with others' experiences. I will certainly be disappointed if mine drops that much when I'm at 13k miles.�
May 5, 2013
Todd Burch Im seeing anywhere from 800 to 1000 km prospected range on my ICE everytime I fill it up. Should I complain with BMW? Lemmon law? Should I be pissed and rant in a forum or should I just drive that damn thing and check the gas actually used when empty again ? Well, maybe there's a factor called driving style, you know. **** happends.�
May 5, 2013
jerry33 The only reason I could see that happening is if a module failed. Since your modules were apparently checked and fine, I'm more inclined to think it's just a glitch with the range calculation algorithm. Range calculation on an EV is, of course, complicated stuff.�
May 5, 2013
CapitalistOppressor ^^^ This one. Particularly if it happened right after an upgrade. It's unlikely that a battery would change overnight unless there was a detectible problem. Far more likely that the algorithm changed. (I haven't noticed any difference after the 4.4 upgrade.)�
May 5, 2013
aviators99 What testing have you done with the charging?
One "Normal" feature that I have seen mentioned (and may be applicable here) is that when you have it plugged into the charger, it charges to full then stops. Range will fall (from normal vampire losses), then when it reaches a certain level the charger kicks on again and the cycle repeats. The range it does this in is consistent with the charge numbers you are mentioning.
A quick test would be to unplug from your charger, drive for a few minutes and then plug back in and watch it to see if it goes higher than 235.
If it's not that, then my best guess would be some software change. I'm not really aware of anyone who has seen their true maximum charges fall that much. Only their actual charges (because of how the cycling works).
- - - Updated - - -
Just read the 4.5 release notes and it has this -
So 4.5 would obviously solve the issue I mentioned regarding the state of charge cycling.
Edit: And it also suggests another issue besides just vampire losses affecting your charge cycling. If you were scheduling a particular cabin temperature for 30 minutes before you get in the car (as an example) that would generally have drawn power from the battery in the past, and the charger would only have kicked in after the SOC had fallen below the target level. If you follow the same routine you would see the same charge level when you got in the car. That also would be fixed by 4.5.�
May 5, 2013
FlasherZ As I've mentioned, I've only quoted numbers that are at the exact point charging is finished.�
May 5, 2013
Trnsl8r I see the same thing, although I lose them immediately after the charge completes. For example, if my car shows 230 and I plug it in, 10 seconds later it will show my car has 234 or so miles... when it reaches 240 miles, and the charge completes, 15 seconds later it will show 236 or so.�
May 5, 2013
aaron.s I actually had a similar experience as OP, although not as drastic. I would typically show 242 miles after a standard charge, routinely. Then the main charger broke and had to be replaced. Since then I have never seen it over 240, mostly around 238. When the charger broke (again) I asked them to check out the battery, which they did, it checked out and got an answer along the lines of estimated range varies depending on blah, blah, and blah...
Wondering if the software update is to "blame". Not sure, but still... after 5000 miles of seeing 242, suddenly seeing 240 (at best) was a bit disconcerting.�
May 6, 2013
mknox After the update to 4.4 - my 242 standard charge has gone down to 240 as well....
Aaron�
May 6, 2013
Rodolfo Paiz ...and I'm getting just the opposite. I was getting 239 on 4.2 and now on 4.4 I'm seeing 241 or 242 right after a Normal charge completes. I thought it was probably just a software thing too, but it's curious I'm going in the opposite direction. It's also been getting warmer in my neck of the woods, so could that have something to do with it too?�
May 6, 2013
huntjo For most people, this may just be a case of "too much information". When we drove ICEs, sediment and stuff settled to the bottom of the tank and you could never be sure whether 18.1 gallons or 18.2 were usable in your tank. Range was never precise. Now that the car can report range with such precision, we find it unsettling to see 1% or 2% variations. I say don't worry about it.
The OP has a different scenario: 5% is statistically significant. But here again, though for different reasons, I would counsel not being too concerned about it. Bring it to the attention of Tesla and have them check it, then keep your records and notes of that. But keep driving the car and see what happens in the next 13,000 miles. This problem is still at the stage of your kid having a fever and sniffling... you can't tell (yet) if it's going to be serious, or if it'll work itself out. Monitor the car is about the only thing you can do for awhile: more data is required to troubleshoot this problem.�
May 6, 2013
Cattledog I second this and applaud the apt analogy�
May 6, 2013
ClearwaterBchSteve Aviator - My recent experience tracks yours. When new in January, typically charged to 238. Did a coupla max to 266. Dropped a coupla miles the next 2 months, and in the past month I now get 224-226 and 259 for max (done 5-6 max charges in 4 months). Need to call Tesla in CA (cause I can't do that in TX yet...)�
May 7, 2013
Trnsl8r Prior to software v4.4, my "standard" range was typically 242-243 miles after charge. After 4.4 was installed, it's now 237-238. This is a very negligible change and one of the "fixes" in 4.4 was supposedly adjustments to the range calculation so this is likely a correction rather than a degredation. I have about 2500 miles on the car with a small average daily commute, and at this point I'm not concerned. However, if the range continues to "drop" month to month this early in the game, I will be.�
May 7, 2013
Andrew Wolfe Looking a little closer I see now I'm updated to 4.4. 90% sure TM did that during the repair, that's why I didn't connect the change.�
May 10, 2013
Cattledog I had a sudden drop last night from my normal 241/242 standard charge (depending whether I check it at 7AM or 8AM) - to 226 this morning. Still investigating.�
May 10, 2013
Todd Burch Andrew - Our experiences track.�
1/1/2015
guest This has got to be a software thing then. Which, I guess, is good news.�
May 11, 2013
Bugeater I'd look at it this way. Now that Tesla is guaranteeing the battery for 8 years, if yours dies at 7.5 years then you just might get a 500 mile battery replacement, or maybe the option for it. However, if your battery is "better" than that and dies at 8.5 years, then you'll have to pay a lot for the replacement!!!
Always looking for the bright side.
But then the DAY after the warranty expired on my first laptop I went to push the power button and it fell inside!�
May 11, 2013
fizzazle As a pediatrician working in urgent care I SECOND your sentiments as well!!!!
Only time will tell people! And Elon Musk standing behind the batteries should be VERY REASSURING!�
May 11, 2013
William13 I noted a temporary drop in rated miles after a standard charge which resolved after a range charge. Just saying......�
May 11, 2013
Owner I wasn't paying too much attention to this as I had been told that this range was personalized by the software due to your driving habits. I did look and my range is only 235. Kind of makes sense to me that mine is a little low as I have to drive up a steep hill to get to my house and do a lot of freeway driving. Check out the graph if you'd like.
I would like a second SOC indicator though. If you wanted to resell the car this "personal rated range" could be misleading.�
May 11, 2013
Andrew Wolfe Mine was back to 241 this morning. I now notice that the charge-level bar was not at it's normal level yesterday. I now think that for some reason it just didn't finish charging.�
May 11, 2013
Doug_G That's an urban legend that seems to be rampant within Tesla. It is so widespread they may even be training store personnel with that misinformation! I was told that same thing at delivery and thoroughly debunked it before I got home.
Rated Range is the maximum range of the car as determined by the EPA. It is a fixed ratio of 88.33% of Ideal Range (i.e. 265/300).
Projected Range from the Energy app takes into account your recent driving habits (when set to Average).�
May 12, 2013
Owner I did not hear this from store personnel but from the service personnel.�
May 12, 2013
Todd Burch It's possible they are just as uninformed about the software feature.�
May 12, 2013
Mnlevin In the week and 680 miles I have driven my 60, I find the Rated Range very accurate. I was thinking that I would get much less range than expected due to a lot of highway driving. But I compared he trip odometer to the loss of RR during the day and it was just about spot on mile for mile. I think that if I were to drive much slower, say around 55 or less then the range would be longer than RR. Thus I would trust the RR to be accurate.�
Jun 19, 2013
Morristhecat I am finding a similar range loss in my 60. I used to wake up every morning and find it has a consistant 305km range under the speedometer. Then one day about a week or two ago, I woke up and found it was significantly (4.6%) lower at 291km range. There it has stayed every morning since. Should I be moderately worried? I'll check the settings under the range app.�
Jun 19, 2013
qwk I would bet that the battery is getting out of balance. Very common with the roadsters. Do you do many partial charges? How often do you charge on 110v to a full standard charge?�
Jun 19, 2013
Sacrament055 Also worth noting that the new 4.5 firmware lowers the default charge level vs. prior to 4.5. Might want to check your slider if you got 4.5 firmware.�
Jun 19, 2013
ckessel FWIW, my battery had "degraded" to a normal standard charge of about 232 from 238 or so when I first got it 6 months ago. I happened to do 3 range charges this last weekend due to lots of long trips required and now my standard charge is back up to 238 (actually 240 this morning). We'll see how long it holds, but I guess if you never range charge the batteries do get out of balance?�
Jun 19, 2013
dhrivnak Now that i know how to pull and analyze logs in my Roadster i had a similar 10 mile drop about 2 years ago. Tesla said all is fine but it is unnerving. Since then i have only seen a modest .5 mile drop. So it may not be a cause for concern.�
Jun 19, 2013
Morristhecat Thanks for the tips guys.
I don't charge at 110V. I'll make a note to do so periodically.
I still am on 4.4, so that shouldn't be an issue.
I have also never done a range charge, since I haven't had the need. I will make a note to do a range charge sometime soon if I can find the excuse.�
Jun 19, 2013
qwk Tesla is not very clear on this. From all of the reading I have done here(7 years now), when the roadsters used to get out of balance, Tesla would either reccomend to range charge the car in max range mode and let it sit, which would help balance the pack. Some of the cars(badly out of balance), would take a few times of doing this to get back into balance.
I would guess that the Model S pack coddling software isn't much different from the roadster. A range charge once in a while probably does more good than bad, so when one needs the range a range charge is a very good idea.�
Jun 20, 2013
pbrulott @ Morristhe cat I too noticed a drop of my 60 lately from 305-309km at standard charge to 295-298km lately. Unfortunately I can't compare anymore because TM upgraded me to V4.5 Monday ( the std vs max is not there anymore and the "set the limit" bar might have switched a few % points).
I also noticed something weird. A 60 EPA range is 208 miles (335km) and that would be Rated range on an Ideal Range of 230 miles or 370km = ratio of 0.904
yesterday I took a reading of the Rated vs Ideal after driving a couple of miles (it was 22C/72F outside yesterday) and I got 288km of rated and 333km of ideal = 0.865
What can be the issue? It's like my battery degraded overnight 2-4%�
Jun 20, 2013
yobigd20 I was informed by a lead service tech manager that all these discussions on "range loss" is not actually any loss whatsoever. The Model S's battery is composed to many smaller battery packs and it's just the battery packs being out of balance with each other. He explained that during the charging process, as soon as the first battery pack reaches it's charge level, the charging stops for ALL battery packs. If the packs are not 'in balance/synchronized' this will lead to what looks like 'range loss' on our consoles. (e.g. 235 vs 245). He then proceeded to explain that over time, the packs WILL re-balance themselves due to the sophisticated technology/algorithms that Tesla is using BUT this must be done at repeated *lower amp* charging over time. For example, if you do nothing but supercharging all the time, he said thats the worst thing to do because the battery packs won't be able to balance themselves properly in time before the first pack reaches it's set charge level and shuts off the charging (he didn't say supercharging "harms" the battery, he just said that the battery pack can't re-balance itself right).
However, if you dial down your amps to use only what you need to reach your set charge level (e.g. dial down your HPWC or NEMA 14-50 to use 15-20amps instead of 40-80 amps), then repeated charges like this over and over again for a few weeks straight will allow the battery packs to re-balance themselves. In the ideal condition, *ONLY* charge your car using a 110v outlet to perfectly synchronize the battery packs. He said he has 3 test vehicles that have only ever been charged using 110v for 6 months straight and their "standard rated range" is over 300 miles because the packs are perfectly synchronized. This is a nice surprising little tidbit that I never knew and I don't think many customers know this, however this is why Tesla repeatedly says when you go on long trips (edit: I mean when you go on long trips away from home and you leave your Tesla at home) the *best thing you can do* is just plug your car into a 110v outlet and let it sit there. They leave out explaining the part that this will help "heal" the battery packs back to properly balanced/synchronized states.
In other words, you may show 235 as your standard charge today, but if you charge using only 110v for a month, your standard charge will climb back to 245+ over time as the packs re-balance themselves.�
Jun 20, 2013
brianman While I think I know what he meant, two fundamental errors in this phrasing make the whole assertion suspect.
The rated range for a 100% charged 85 kWh pack is 265 miles, not 300.
The standard charge is not 100% (it's 92-93% in 4.4 and 90% in 4.5), so it's even less than 265 rated miles.
So -- as phrased -- he's indicating that he has 3 cars that have a higher rating now than when the vehicle was new by two degrees (ideal vs. rated, and standard vs. range).�
Jun 20, 2013
yobigd20 Yup. But those were his words. I thought the same thing. If it's true thats very cool. He did add that "Tesla has a lot of EXTREMELY VERY COOL things that they are doing in the near future" and would not comment further. Note that this was not in reference to the battery swapping, there is more stuff coming after that. That does fall in line with another Tesla rep that said to me a month ago that there is a lot of really cool things coming up soon and he also would not comment further (that rep did mention some things like 3 new wheel sets being offered by end of summer - factory 19" turbine wheels, 19" AERO wheels, and a third wheel set). I think Tesla has A LOT more up their sleeves than they lead us to believe (e.g. this "swapping demo" is not the end of cool things that they will announce this year...)�
Jun 20, 2013
Al Sherman That would be great. I'll order them as soon as they're out. Hopefully in time for snow tires.�
Jun 20, 2013
aviators99 Lowering the amperage does nothing for me.�
Jun 20, 2013
deonb How many times did you do this? (Weeks on end?)�
Jun 20, 2013
Morristhecat Although one night is not much of a data point, I dialed down the charge amps last night to 20 amps from 40. As a result I woke up to 296km range, up from 291. That is fairly significant for only one night and seems consistant with the battery balance you guys have educated me on. I'll dial it down some more and keep it low and hopefully soon I'll be back up to 305km or more. Thanks again guys.
Battery balancing does seem to be something Tesla should be more active in educating owners on, eh?�
Jun 20, 2013
pbrulott I'm stuck at 298km, not more these days. But with V4.5 it might be normal to be lower since the % of charge for a standard charge is 90% vs 91-92% with V4.4. Do you have V4.5?�
Jun 20, 2013
Morristhecat I am still on 4.4. So I'll expect another drop when I am upgraded to 4.5. In the meantime i will keep trying to get the battery balanced out relative to my experience so far.�
Jun 20, 2013
yobigd20 I'm actually back up to 238 from 235 from just 2 days (approx 520 miles of charge, 100->235, 100->235, 100->237, 100->238) of dialing down my charge rate to 19/20 amps from 40. That's not enough to know for sure if this "theory" works yet. I'll keep doing this for a few weeks. If I get it back up to 245 then I think we know for sure that this battery rebalancing idea is sound.�
Jun 20, 2013
Kipernicus More questions I think none of us has answers to:
Is it just the amperage or total power?
Is it better to use a 110 outlet or use the 14-50 and dial down amps?
And does it need to be a max range charge like what they used to recommend for the roadsters?�
Jun 20, 2013
aviators99 No. Perhaps that is worth a try. I do go between 60/80 amps (at home) and 30 amps (at work and on my trips). Sounds like that may not be a good way to "balance" it? I'm getting hopeful from what I'm hearing here. I'll wait for the answer to Kipernicus's question and then set out to try it differently.�
Jun 22, 2013
cinergi Don't forget that charging at a lower rate means you finish charging later which means if you go and check the car at the same time in the morning, it's not been sitting around suffering from vampire loss as long. These numbers you're observing may simply be the result of that.�
Jun 23, 2013
aviators99 I'm pretty sure I mentioned early on that I only use numbers I get at the exact time charging is complete.
EDIT: Just checked. Mentioned it a few times.�
Jun 23, 2013
cinergi I was referring to other folks mentioning their observations without stating as much
�
Jun 25, 2013
B-Chicago It sounds like most standard charges are about 240 miles. My car is less than a week old and that is what I get as well. I've been out of town for 3 days now and noticing a 5-7mi loss of range each night (it is 75 degrees in my garage right now). I will track it for the next 3 days, but is this a consistent, recurring loss? It won't happen that often, but important to know if you are at the airport or on a trip without a charge that you need to factor this in to the return.�
Jun 25, 2013
Todd Burch Discussed ad nauseum on this site. Refer to the vampire drain thread in this section on the site.
Long story short:
1) Leave your car plugged in when parked in your garage and off on a business trip. The battery will top off each night.
2) Tesla's working on a sleep mode that will greatly reduce the daily power loss. Due in a software update within a few months.�
Jun 26, 2013
aviators99 I've been charging at 25A for almost a week now. So far, no noticeable difference, although I have not charged to 100% yet. My next long trip is Monday.�
Jun 26, 2013
Morristhecat After a week of charging at a combination of 110v 12 amps and 240v 15 amps I am convinced that my sudden drop of waking up to a range from 305Km to 292km is not battery imbalance. It really hasn't balanced out. Any increase is simply from less vampire loss due to a longer charge. There must be something else going on.
In another thread, I noticed that most 60's get a lifetime of 200kwh/km. I noticed i am getting 208Kwh/Km. Could the car simply be recalculating my range based upon that higher usage rate? If so that may make sense, but why the sudden drop in range, did it simply one day decide to recalculate differet than before? I am still on v4.4.....
Maybe I just need to drive a little slower and not enjoy the lightspeed accelerator button so much??�
Jun 26, 2013
aviators99 I've lost another 2+ miles since I started this thread.
Still nothing but "it is normal" from Tesla.�
Jun 26, 2013
brianman Maybe stop reading the thread?�
Jun 27, 2013
aviators99 Funny!�
Jun 27, 2013
steve841 Does anyone else see the humor in Tesla reporting "it is normal" on a car that has only been in production-let alone existence-for only about one year?�
Jun 27, 2013
aviators99 In all fairness, I may have misreported their exact words. They may have said "as expected".�
Aug 7, 2013
mknox Thought I'd post here, because it seems the most relevant thread...
I had never done a Range Charge but also noticed my Rated Range seemed to be dropping. For example, I am seeing 171 miles of range at a 70% charge, 230 miles at 90% and so forth. If I assume the slider percentages and Rated Miles are linear, this would mean that a 100% charge would come in at 244 to 255 (instead of 265).
Well, the other day I did a Range Charge and got some peculiar results. The car has always been very accurate at predicting how long the charge is going to take to complete. When I did the Range Charge, it got to the point where it was saying "5 minutes remaining" and hung there for 15 minutes or so. Then it dropped to 4 and took about 20 minutes to get to "3 minutes remaining". At this point I had 260 miles of Range and I had to unplug and leave. I'm not sure if it would have gotten above 260 miles (was at 260 from about the 5 minute remaining mark), but maybe it would have.
So for me, I've "lost" no more than 5 miles. My car currently has about 9,500 miles on it.
�
Aug 7, 2013
Banahogg From my data, it seems like they broke this in 4.4: Firmware 4.4 - Page 25
My experience is that the last couple percent take forever no matter what charger you're connected to. The rule of thumb that I use is that standard->100% takes 60-90 minutes.�
Aug 7, 2013
spleen Maybe it was trying to balance the pack?�
Aug 13, 2013
dave Anyone have any other updates?
I am only getting 226 on a Standard (90%) charge now, and am a little concerned. I am at 6700 miles and have only done 2 range charges since owning the car.�
Aug 13, 2013
mknox I'm concluding that the correlation between slider percentage and Rated Miles is not linear. I get about 230 miles at 90% which would translate to 256 at 100%, but I actually got to 260 on a Range Charge and had to disconnect and leave before the Range Charge even finished.�
Aug 13, 2013
dave Regardless if its linear or not, aren't most people getting 235-240 on a Standard charge?�
Aug 13, 2013
mknox I used to get 241 or 242, but that was before they introduced the "slider". I now get about 230 miles at 90% (but still get very close to Rated on a Range Charge). I think they either changed the algorithm or else the old "Standard Charge" was actually something higher than 90%. I have just over 10,000 miles on my car.�
Aug 13, 2013
dsm363 The old standard charge was 92% I believe but others have said 93%.�
Aug 13, 2013
gaswalla I was getting anxious about my battery too (being a previous LEAF owner and watching that battery degrade 30% after 25k miles, I still have some PTSD).. I extrapolated the percentages and range to 100% and my calculations kept getting worse and worse.. A 50% charge was giving me 105miles.. I did a range charge (and also experienced the extra half hour at the end of the charge while the battery presumably balanced),and I had 296 ideal miles - around 258 rated. I like using ideal miles for an assessment of battery capacity b/c it seems to eliminate other variables. This is on a car with 17k miles. Now my range at a given percentage is up again, but it keeps slipping every day. I think it is purely a software issue. As long one can get rid of the degradation anxiety, it really is not an issue.�
Aug 13, 2013
brianman There is reason for the "imperfect memories" and the "softness of assertions" on this front. Elaborating...
According to my logs, the following fields were introduced between by 1.31.11 (4.4) and 1.33.44 (4.5)...
... and for 85 kWh the std/min/max values are 90/50/100.
- charge_limit_soc
- charge_limit_soc_std
- charge_limit_soc_min
- charge_limit_soc_max
Prior to that, the limit was only indicated via the "charge_to_max_range" boolean.
Thus in 4.4 and older firmware, "battery_level" was our best guess at the limit.
For my vehicle, I have one "aberration" charge of 96% (that I contacted Tesla about) and a handful of 94%. Apart from that half-dozen or so instances, the limit of 93% appears to have been applied.
Edit:
For completeness sake, here's some data:
- 1.31.11 -- 2103/05/19 -- battery_level 96 / battery_range 246.89 / ideal_battery_range 282.64 [2.57br/bl]
- 1.31.11 -- 2013/05/18 -- battery_level 94 / battery_range 243.28 / ideal_battery_range 282.64 [2.59br/bl]
- 1.33.61 -- 2013/08/12 -- battery_level 90 / battery_range 228.85 / ideal_battery_range 263.40 [2.54br/bl]
- 1.33.61 -- 2013/08/13 -- battery_level 88 / battery_range 220.98 / ideal_battery_range 254.34 [2.51br/bl]
Note that the matching ideal_battery_range in the first two entries above is not a typo. Curious.
The number in brackets is batter_range/battery_level so (integer rounding error aside) gives a feel for how many rated miles per SOC %.�
Aug 13, 2013
mknox Yep. I was getting a little concerned until I did that Range Charge and realized I was still good.�
Aug 13, 2013
bluetinc You are seeing the effects of multiple things. First, the % numbers you mention are SOC, not range. These do not appear linear because of the "reserve" energy that is reserved for driving below 0 miles. Add to this that the standard charge has changed from 93% -> 90%. At a full charge of 260 rated miles (79,690Wh/306.5Wh/mi), you should have ~79,690 Wh of drivable energy (100%)(260miles*306.5Wh/mi). At 90% you would have ~71,721Wh. This would be displayed as ~232 rated range miles (71,227 Wh/306.5) and 494Wh not displayed as reserve below 0 at this point. This effect would be more pronounced at lower SOC, such as a 50% charge where there would be a display of ~121 miles with reserve of ~2470 Wh.
Peter
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Aug 13, 2013
FredTMC Yes. Its balancing the pack (imo). I posted about this before. The "ring of light" at the charge port will be SOLID green but the car says its still charging (and the app). I believe it's balancing pack during this time.
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Yes. Its balancing the pack (imo). I posted about this before. The "ring of light" at the charge port will be SOLID green but the car says its still charging (and the app). I believe it's balancing pack during this time.�
Aug 13, 2013
brianman We have in-car pictures suggesting that the car UI puts rated at 312 Wh/mi. Where is 306.5 coming from? Thanks.�
Aug 13, 2013
gaswalla Despite all the eloquent arguments, the experience is that a given percentage will see less and less range over time until a range charge is done and then brings the rated range for that percentage back up.�
Aug 13, 2013
bluetinc It's from calculations that I've been doing in my car. I've discounted using visual graphics to determine this number. From what I've been able to gather, this number can be different for different cars, and I have definitely validated that two newer cars have a 302Wh/mi energy unit, while my car is different. As a side note, it appeared that the "ideal mile" energy unit was identical in all cars. If you have one number you can easily calculate the other with your numbers as ideal miles * ideal energy unit = rated miles * rated energy unit i.e. 254.34 * 266.5 = 220.98 * 306.7.
Peter
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Aug 13, 2013
gaswalla wouldn't the wh/mi unit vary between the 85 vs 60 battery models? Does that account for any of the discrepancies?�
Aug 13, 2013
bluetinc I would expect them to, in my cases all cars have been P85s.
Peter
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Aug 13, 2013
aviators99 I will tell you (not specifically eloquently) that my experience is different.�
Aug 13, 2013
cinergi Mine is also different. Range charge now maxes at 250.
And related to bluetinc's info, I don't actually get rated range unless I am averaging 290 Wh/mile. That is, if I subtract miles traveled (trip meter) from starting rated range, it doesn't match rated range remaining unless I'm at 290 whpm.�
Aug 13, 2013
aviators99 That's about the same as mine (both numbers). However, some earlier threads claimed that the trip meter does not take into account draw from things other than the KW draw you see in the speedometer, and I think I believe that.�
Aug 13, 2013
mknox The Wh/mi that the car's trip meter reports is a good value for telling you how efficient your driving is and to project your range while underway. It seems to include everything the car is using (motor, lights, HVAC etc.) while the car is on and underway.
What comes out of the wall and in to your car will be greater than what the car reports because of things like charger inefficiencies and standby power that is not accounted for when the car is idle.�
Aug 13, 2013
qwk Not at all my experience.�
Aug 13, 2013
aviators99 Why do you believe that the trip meter includes lights, HVAC, etc.? I've been told otherwise by engineering. Also, do you believe that the energy graph does *not* include this stuff?�
Aug 13, 2013
cinergi Let me add to my 290 statement. It matches my graph, too - which we know includes HVAC. And our trip meters were much higher in the winter so it includes heat. And I'm pretty sure a/c as well.�
Aug 13, 2013
bluetinc While I don't have any hard data proving definitively that the trip meter includes everything, I have seen trip meter totals that are up to 79.4 kWh for a single long, non-stop drive in the middle of December, with the heat running on hours of driving. I can't see how that number wouldn't include the HVAC system.
While lights themselves would be very hard to show (~100 W would add ~3 Wh/mi at 30 miles an hour) I think it would be fair to note that it's a 12V system, and that all 12V systems would only show up if the HVDC-12VDC system power usage is included. This energy draw would be only temporary during top-up of the 12V system. While I think that this is also included, I'll have to think about the easiest way to show that this is, or isn't, included.
Peter
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Aug 13, 2013
mknox Easy. When it was very cold, I could turn on the heat and see the energy meter (orange) go up to 5 kW or more when the car was standing still. Turn it off and the graph drops back down. It is also reflected by extremely high Wh/mi readings for the first few miles that eventually settles down, but the average in cold weather remains much higher than in warmer months. The car's energy graph absolutely reflects this added load when the car is on and you're driving.�
Aug 14, 2013
mnx You guys probably already know this but it definitely doesn't include battery/motor cooling/heating, at least while the car is off. When I've tracked the car in the past, my trip meter reads ~66 kWh since last charge while using ~95% of an available charge on my 85kWh Model S.�
Aug 14, 2013
aviators99 Yes, this agrees with what I was told--that the graph *does* include this stuff. It is the trip meter that I was told does not.�
Aug 14, 2013
mknox It sure does for me, or my Wh/mi wouldn't be so much higher in the cold months. I am averaging right around 300 Wh/mi (according to my trip meter which I reset monthly) while in the winter I was almost 500. My driving patterns are pretty consistent so the only variable would be the pack and cabin heating.
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Right. It seems to only track when the car is on. That is kinda my point: the power from the wall is a fair bit higher than what the car's trip meters report.�
Aug 14, 2013
aviators99 I think you mean "the only variable would be the pack and/or the cabin heating". Or you might mean "the only variables would be the pack and cabin heating".
Tesla engineering has led us/me astray before, but if it includes the pack heating but not the cabin heating, it could still be somewhat consistent with what they say. There is certainly some difference between what they measure.
In addition, I've had this theory for a while that the regen is not even close to being measured correctly on the trip computer. I think it's way off.�
Aug 14, 2013
mknox Yes, that's what I meant. In other words, in the summer I'm not using the cabin heat and presumably the pack isn't being heated either, but in the winter, one or both certainly are on.
I think the a/c gives a bit of a hit too, but not nearly as much as the cabin heater does.�
Aug 14, 2013
jerry33 I can tell the difference in the Wh/mi with the a/c on and off. It's not dramatic but it's consistently higher when the a/c is on.�
Aug 14, 2013
brianman This I believe.
Followup question: Do you think average drivers will see a noticeable difference or just experienced hypermilers?�
Aug 14, 2013
Banahogg I can see a difference from even light A/C on my city streets commute as long as I'm driving reasonably (too sleepy to drive aggressively on the morning commute). If I have the climate control off and the windows open, I've seen as low at 250 Wh/mi on a 5 mi commute.�
Aug 14, 2013
mknox I'm a pretty conservative driver by nature, but certainly not a hypermiler. I can't really tell the difference on days when I have a/c on or off (and I do turn it off when I don't need it), but I sure can tell when I'm using heat!�
Aug 15, 2013
JRP3 The DC/DC should be operating all the time when the vehicle is in use. I believe Tesla uses a 2 channel DC/DC, one keeps the 12V battery charged up at all times and the other operates all the 12V accessory loads during vehicle operation. I assume Tesla is measuring all draw from the main pack, which includes the DC/DC converter, so all loads should be measured, though very small drains may not show up.�
Aug 15, 2013
jerry33 I suspect they might notice it more because they might not take care to use the a/c in the most efficient manner.�
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