teslamotorclub: Solution to charge your Model 3 if you don't have any garage? part 1

I was walking in my neighborhood (Noe Valley, San Francisco) this morning and came across this plug coming out of the sidewalk. The plus was charging a Mercedes. I guess the owner used the underground pipe to connect the plug to his house. It's a pretty discret solution that doesn't leave a cable on the sidewalk as I have already seen many times.

And the best news of all: I have also a similar plate in front of my house

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Oyinko said: ?

I was walking in my neighborhood (Noe Valley, San Francisco) this morning and came across this plug coming out of the sidewalk. The plus was charging a Mercedes. I guess the owner used the underground pipe to connect the plug to his house. It's a pretty discret solution that doesn't leave a cable on the sidewalk as I have already seen many times.

And the best news of all: I have also a similar plate in front of my house
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That's clever but likely also a code violation. You aren't supposed to share water based utilities through the same trench as electrical, much less inside the pipe itself.
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stopcrazypp said: ?

That's clever but likely also a code violation. You aren't supposed to share water based utilities through the same trench as electrical, much less inside the pipe itself.
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What makes you think the pipe is water related? It looks to me like the sidewalk was cut, a conduit added, and re-cemented. They probably should have painted it though.

Thank you kindly.
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Not a bad idea. I'm going to run a plug from my neighbor's house.
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Does he have exclusive use of that parking space? Would suck if someone else parked there and the owner can't get to his own charging cable.
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The spot was in front of his driveway so I guess he is the only one using it. He had also another plug next to his garage door which makes me think he has 2 electric cars.

I'm not sure if the hole is for the water pipe but it's definitely something related to the city as most of the houses have one in the sidewalk.
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Topher said: ?

What makes you think the pipe is water related? It looks to me like the sidewalk was cut, a conduit added, and re-cemented. They probably should have painted it though.

Thank you kindly.
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That cover is a common occurrence in San Francisco. It is a sewer vent that in general helps to prevent odors from the sewer line getting into people's homes, but is sometimes used for clearing blockages in the sewer line from the sidewalk (I know because I've seem plumbers clearing clogs using a snake through that cover).

So a cable through there means it must be either snaked through the pipe, or very near the sewer line.

Missing Sewer Vent Covers | San Francisco Public Works
(see page 12 for diagram)
http://www.sfwater.org/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=580

Given the cover shown doesn't have holes (the one next to it does), it might be a general cleanout (so not air venting).
http://www.mountainview.gov/civicax/filebank/blobdload.aspx?blobid=6978

The sidewalk was likely cut to install the sewer line, not to install the conduit. Look at how old and rusted out the cover is.

I'm not a plumber or electrician, but from working on some projects with P&GE (the local electrical/gas utility company in San Francisco) they will not let you install electrical wires through the same trench as "wet" utilities (this includes water and sewer).

If that cable is the cable from EVSE to car (meaning it is not energized when not charging) that might be more acceptable, but if the EVSE is on the outside (meaning cable is always energized), then it creates quite a bit of danger for the plumber who might have to use that cover when clearing a clog.
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Interesting. Many places it's illegal to park in front of a driveway, even if it's your own. Also, the cord is a potential trip hazard to pedestrians. I see lots of possible problems with this approach (sorry!). I would imagine that a better solution would be to have a trench in the sidewalk with a removable cover and an above-ground plug in the yard. This approach would permit a safe above-ground electrical connection with a safe pathway to the street parking spot (assuming there is some way to reserve that particular spot!).
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Hijacking this thread for a somewhat similar dilemma.

To put it simple, there is a very high probability that I'll have to relocate from CA to TX, if that were to occur I will be renting an apartment, as buying a home right after seems like a terrible idea. What would be the best way to charge a 3, I might have access at work, but I'll rather plan incase I don't.
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I'm interested in this as well. I certainly plan to be moved into a house/townhouse by the time I get my III but that's not a guarantee. I would like to know if anyone has experience with this in an apartment complex.
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FirstSea said: ?

Hijacking this thread for a somewhat similar dilemma.

To put it simple, there is a very high probability that I'll have to relocate from CA to TX, if that were to occur I will be renting an apartment, as buying a home right after seems like a terrible idea. What would be the best way to charge a 3, I might have access at work, but I'll rather plan incase I don't.
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I don't know how viable this is in TX, but in CA it is possible to rent a private garage and as long as it has at least has a 110v outlet, that can give you 30 miles of range overnight. Then the rest you can supplement with work or public charging, which you can locate with plugshare:
PlugShare
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It makes great sense to invest the money in a long term charging solution. Reliable charging will multiply the utility and satisfaction of your Model 3 purchase.

Just my 2 �.
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Dang....what a PITA! Understandable in big urban areas.
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stopcrazypp said: ?

I don't know how viable this is in TX, but in CA it is possible to rent a private garage and as long as it has at least has a 110v outlet, that can give you 30 miles of range overnight. Then the rest you can supplement with work or public charging, which you can locate with plugshare:
PlugShare
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I had no idea about PlugShare! Thanks a lot and I just signed up. Looks like I live smack dab in the middle of tons of charging options, but hopefully by that time I'l have a more permanent solution regardless.
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Thanks stopcrazypp, I didn't know such resource existed.
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FirstSea said: ?

Thanks stopcrazypp, I didn't know such resource existed.
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Yes, I find it ironic that these technological conveniences and information like PlugShare rely upon word-of-mouth.
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One can only hope for greater integration of PlugShare and evtripplanner.com into Nav/Trip Planner. Especially now that a certain intern is onboard.
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just use a supercharger. that is what they are there for.
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Oyinko said: ?

And the best news of all: I have also a similar plate in front of my house
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Even better news: your neighbor already ran a line for everybody to use!!!
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Drivin said: ?

just use a supercharger. that is what they are there for.
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Uh, no...

"Superchargers are used for long distance travel, conveniently located along the most popular routes in North America, Europe and Asia."

Supercharging

With regard to locals charging, Tesla frowns upon it, although Elon Musk did say "it's cool to do occasionally" but he also said he doesn't want it become a regular habit and those who do use local ones got letters to that effect. Tesla knows when each car uses a supercharger so to expect to be able charge locally on a regular basis with the Model 3 doesn't seem like something that Tesla will allow, or that will work, since it will clog them up for those travelling through, unless Tesla changes the entire purpose of the SC network, which seems highly unlikely to me.

Some customers are "aggressively" using Superchargers for local travel, even though the stations are only intended for long trip usage. Tesla will be sending them reminder notes that "it's cool to do so occasionally," but the company doesn't want this to become a regular habit. Tesla still intends to put a solar installation at every Supercharger, where it's practical.

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I have yet to deal with this challenge, but I know I'll have to. If I'm in my current condo, I'm going to try and run an inexpensive wire even if it's just a standard 110v. The 30-40 miles of range overnight is plenty for regular use.
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Booga said: ?

I have yet to deal with this challenge, but I know I'll have to. If I'm in my current condo, I'm going to try and run an inexpensive wire even if it's just a standard 110v. The 30-40 miles of range overnight is plenty for regular use.
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Be sure to get a wire which is appropriately sized. Charging pulls a lot of current, and long cords have significant losses to heat. Consult an expert if you are unsure.

Thank you kindly.
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Canuck said: ?

Uh, no...

"Superchargers are used for long distance travel, conveniently located along the most popular routes in North America, Europe and Asia."

Supercharging

With regard to locals charging, Tesla frowns upon it, although Elon Musk did say "it's cool to do occasionally" but he also said he doesn't want it become a regular habit and those who do use local ones got letters to that effect. Tesla knows when each car uses a supercharger so to expect to be able charge locally on a regular basis with the Model 3 doesn't seem like something that Tesla will allow, or that will work, since it will clog them up for those travelling through, unless Tesla changes the entire purpose of the SC network, which seems highly unlikely to me.

Some customers are "aggressively" using Superchargers for local travel, even though the stations are only intended for long trip usage. Tesla will be sending them reminder notes that "it's cool to do so occasionally," but the company doesn't want this to become a regular habit. Tesla still intends to put a solar installation at every Supercharger, where it's practical.

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But isn't this really intended for people who have a charging capability at home? Does Tesla really want to say as a company, if you don't own a home or live in a place where you don't have access to charge, then don't own a Tesla?
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James Anders said: ?

But isn't this really intended for people who have a charging capability at home? Does Tesla really want to say as a company, if you don't own a home or live in a place where you don't have access to charge, then don't own a Tesla?
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How can you not have access to a charge but access to a Supercharger? On plugshare, there's lots of public EVSE's located by the Superchargers. Yes, you might have to pay for them, and they won't be as fast, but there's many ways to charge other than by way of locals charging at Superchargers. If that happens, we can pretty much say 'goodbye' to long distance travel in our Tesla's since you can't expect Tesla to inspect everyone's home to see if they really don't have access to home charging; and we know people will use anything as an excuse to save a buck, especially if they have a Model 3 and a nearby Supercharger, which is going to be case once the hundreds of thousands of Model 3's start rolling off the assembly lines.
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Drivin said: ?

just use a supercharger. that is what they are there for.
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Actually they are not there for that reason. People that charge locally like that have been getting emails from Tesla warning to cease the activity. Now, if they can legally do anything about it is another question, but it was definitely meant for travelling long distances.
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James Anders said: ?

But isn't this really intended for people who have a charging capability at home? Does Tesla really want to say as a company, if you don't own a home or live in a place where you don't have access to charge, then don't own a Tesla?
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Tesla won't say it but hopefully common sense will prevail. Tesla surely won't provide supercharging adequate to serve hordes of Tesla 3 cheapskates, apartment dwellers and others who cannot charge at home. Tesla may live to regret ever establishing the current system of unlimited supercharging. They should have foreseen a huge mess when the Model 3 appears. Of course that assumes unlimited supercharging will be available to Model 3 owners. I'm betting that won't happen.
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Adrien said: ?

Actually they are not there for that reason. People that charge locally like that have been getting emails from Tesla warning to cease the activity. Now, if they can legally do anything about it is another question, but it was definitely meant for travelling long distances.
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This is why I don't think we will see "free" Supercharging for the Model 3. I put "free" in quotes since Model S owners have paid upfront for supercharging so it's not really free. When I bought, the 60's had to pay $2,500 to enable SCing. I upgraded to an 85 so it was included in the additional price but I still paid for it, and it has since been built into the price of all S & X vehicles. I doubt I will ever use $2,500 in SC energy but I guess my money also helped to pay for the infrastructure.

In my view, there will be a per-use charge for Supercharging for the Model 3 that will exceed the charging at-home rate. That will solve the issue of locals charging, since there's no incentive. Then those locals who really need charging can use them. Problem solved -- except for Model S & X locals charging who will likely only continue to get "friendly" reminder letters.
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Canuck said: ?

How can you not have access to a charge but access to a Supercharger? On plugshare, there's lots of public EVSE's located by the Superchargers. Yes, you might have to pay for them, and they won't be as fast, but there's many ways to charge other than by way of locals charging at Superchargers. If that happens, we can pretty much say 'goodbye' to long distance travel in our Tesla's since you can't expect Tesla to inspect everyone's home to see if they really don't have access to home charging; and we know people will use anything as an excuse to save a buck, especially if they have a Model 3 and a nearby Supercharger, which is going to be case once the hundreds of thousands of Model 3's start rolling off the assembly lines.
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How? Because you live in an apartment or condo. True, there are people who could charge at home and abuse the Superchargers but allowing the few who don't have access to a charger where they live would be reasonable. As long as they're mindful of etiquette. They could charge at off-peak hours or only when there's ample open spots.

Some people can be jerks even when they're traveling and using the Superchargers "correctly" by leaving their car parked for hours on end, etc.
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Adrien said: ?

Actually they are not there for that reason. People that charge locally like that have been getting emails from Tesla warning to cease the activity. Now, if they can legally do anything about it is another question, but it was definitely meant for travelling long distances.
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This is completely false. Tesla has committed to DENSITY as well as to DISTANCE for almost 2 years now.

And the letter was a disaster that did more harm than good. Not Tesla's finest hour, and you'll note that mistake has not been repeated since.

Further, senior management as recently as last month has confirmed that the free SC model is sustainable. Prior thereto, Dr. Straubel himself said that the SC business model is fine until 1M cars, and we are nowhere near 1M cars (in the US) nor will we be for a good half-decade yet.

Contrary to rumor and innuendo, there is no significant problem with locals overrunning SCs. Most owners do not use SCs. And that trend will continue. Why? Convenience. Nobody with a garage is going to wait in line to charge when they can wake up with a full charge every morning.
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Canuck said: ?

This is why I don't think we will see "free" Supercharging for the Model 3. I put "free" in quotes since Model S owners have paid upfront for supercharging so it's not really free. When I bought, the 60's had to pay $2,500 to enable SCing. I upgraded to an 85 so it was included in the additional price but I still paid for it, and it has since been built into the price of all S & X vehicles. I doubt I will ever use $2,500 in SC energy but I guess my money also helped to pay for the infrastructure.

In my view, there will be a per-use charge for Supercharging for the Model 3 that will exceed the charging at-home rate. That will solve the issue of locals charging, since there's no incentive. Then those locals who really need charging can use them. Problem solved -- except for Model S & X locals charging who will likely only continue to get "friendly" reminder letters.
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Except there is no problem with locals charging. As much as you would like to believe there is. This witch hunt really needs to stop.

While it makes send to offer a base M3 without SCing enabled, it is solely because most owners do not use SCs. That trend will continue, at least in the US, where 2/3 of homes have garages. Garages outnumber gas stations 400:1. 90% of owners don't use SCs - figure easily 2/3 of M3 owners will be likewise. Remember that most people don't leave a 50-mile radius.

There will be no pay per use SC usage or any other hinky exclusionary schemes. It's not just me that disagrees with this ridiculous premise - Tesla senior management disagrees as well and those sentiments have been published as recently as last month.

Since reality doesn't seem to matter despite this horse being beyond dead, I hear there's a 2 for 1 sale for pitchforks and torches at Home Depot. Don't all go at once. You might need to pay each time to use the register.
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TaoJones said: ?

Except there is no problem with locals charging. As much as you would like to believe there is. This witch hunt really needs to stop.
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Ha! Tesla's logs of locals charging is a witch hunt. That's a good one. And it's me wanting to believe it, not the fact that Elon Musk raised it at the shareholder's meeting, and Tesla sent locals charging at SC's letters after he raised it. Oh, and what about this? -- with barely any Model S's on the road compared to what's coming with the Model 3 (and the X!):

Well, that didn't exist, on a long weekend for travel, right? It's a forged picture. And locals charging there clogging it up never happened. The logs were wrong! Right? It's all a witch hunt. And with the Model 3 coming, don't worry about it, it's all a witch hunt!

That really did give me a good laugh.

TaoJones said: ?

Tesla senior management disagrees as well and those sentiments have been published as recently as last month.
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Citation please. I back-up all my Tesla statements with links. The one above links to this portion of the shareholder's meeting:

"Some customers are "aggressively" using Superchargers for local travel, even though the stations are only intended for long trip usage. Tesla will be sending them reminder notes that "it's cool to do so occasionally," but the company doesn't want this to become a regular habit."

Also, this letter was sent as part of the witch hunt. Right?:

Tesla Letter To Rein In Local Supercharger Use Goes Wrong

TaoJones said: ?

And the letter was a disaster that did more harm than good.
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Again, citation please. What harm did it do that outweighed the good it did? Also, it went wrong only because Tesla cast too wide of a net, but that's not "more harm than good". If anything, it did a ton of good since it let people know they are being monitored and I bet a lot of those locals charging now think twice before doing so and I also bet many have stopped.

TaoJones said: ?

There will be no pay per use SC usage or any other hinky exclusionary schemes
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I'm amazed by the insider information you must have to make such categorical statements. So Tesla knows this but they don't advertise it, why? Because if they did, they would get even more Model 3 orders? Yes, that makes sense.

Do you have links to support anything you say, or are you just selling pitchforks?
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Canuck said: ?

View attachment 176372

Well, that didn't exist, on a long weekend for travel, right? It's a forged picture. And locals charging there clogging it up never happened. The logs were wrong! Right? It's all a witch hunt. And with the Model 3 coming, don't worry about it, it's all a witch hunt!
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What logs? That's a picture of Tejon. It was a long weekend for travel, and as you say very busy. But the supercharger is out in the middle of nowhere, there are no nearby locals! The supercharger was entirely filled by travelers (they've since opened another nearby supercharger to lessen the load).
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While Tesla does say long range travel, their placement strategy is another story. As they say "We strategically place Superchargers along well-traveled highways and in congested city centers."

In the SF Bay area they already have 3 superchargers within 20 miles of each other and are planning to open 3 or 4 more. They have 7 superchargers in the LA metro area and are about to open an 8th. That's confusing placement if they are intended only for inter-city travel.
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Canuck said: ?

"Some customers are "aggressively" using Superchargers for local travel, even though the stations are only intended for long trip usage. Tesla will be sending them reminder notes that "it's cool to do so occasionally," but the company doesn't want this to become a regular habit."
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This is a year old and they build new superchargers.

He NEVER said it is a problem or that is will be a problem, since it is COOL to do it occasionally.
So if you want to be COOL, you should use it for local charging.
One person's "occasional" is another person's "frequent"

If they don't want it to be a habit, they need to tell you how COOL you are allowed to be and under what circumstances and then for all new cars sold, make that as part of the purchase agreement. As for people who already bought their cars, the best they can do is try and shame people.
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Canuck said: ?

And locals charging there clogging it up never happened. The logs were wrong!
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Where is the evidence that those people are locals? If a local is at the Tejon SC, then it is because they are traveling. I doubt they are stupid enough to drive all the way there, wait on line there, and drive back home during a busy time much less any time.

What logs?

Do you believe everything a company tells you when they make excuses about their service? "Our logs say it isn't our fault, it is someone else's". Well ok then.

Do those logs show take out any locals who drove from SF to San Diego and needed to stop in a SC near LA (their home) in order to make the trip? Or is that person supposed to drive home and charge up there before continuing their trip otherwise they are "not cool"?
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Canuck said: ?

Do you have links to support anything you say, or are you just selling pitchforks?
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definitely just selling pitchforks, at 2-for-1 they're probably not selling very well since most already know about the congestion
We'll trust Tesla's fabulous team to come up with a great solution
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James Anders said: ?

But isn't this really intended for people who have a charging capability at home? Does Tesla really want to say as a company, if you don't own a home or live in a place where you don't have access to charge, then don't own a Tesla?
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I don't have a quote/source, but I recall reading/hearing somewhere about how if you don't have a reliable method of charging at night (no near outlets, garage, etc.), then an EV vehicle isn't suited for you just yet. And this isn't exclusive to Tesla vehicles; for some reason no one complaining to Nissan about if they don't deserve a Leaf if they don't have access to charge, it's the same concept.

Down the line there'll be any more EV chargers with better battery technology, so you can operate the same way as a ICE; charge up at a public station (pay per use), then park at home and have minimum energy lost overnight.
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sports4eva115 said: ?

I don't have a quote/source, but I recall reading/hearing somewhere about how if you don't have a reliable method of charging at night (no near outlets, garage, etc.), then an EV vehicle isn't suited for you just yet. And this isn't exclusive to Tesla vehicles; for some reason no one complaining to Nissan about if they don't deserve a Leaf if they don't have access to charge, it's the same concept.

Down the line there'll be any more EV chargers with better battery technology, so you can operate the same way as a ICE; charge up at a public station (pay per use), then park at home and have minimum energy lost overnight.
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I think you're generally right, though my guess is that being able to charge at home is probably one of the biggest conveniences of having an electric car.

The Leaf is interesting. I can't see how that would be possible to use like an ICE at all. You only get 100 miles of range in good conditions to begin with and so I think a home charger is mandatory. Tesla is getting closer to not needing one, but I think the convenience has to be a huge benefit. I don't want to think about using charging locations all the time. If shopping areas and offices make the plugs ubiquitous, then that might change a bit more.
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The truth of the matter is that no one here knows what Tesla's plans are, despite categorical statements by some to the contrary. Only time will tell. I would just point out that if Tesla planned "free" Supercharging for the Model 3, like the S & X, it sure is strange that they haven't announced it. I guess the only explanation for that is they don't want more orders. My explanation is that it opens them up to customers using them "aggressively" for local travel, even though the stations are only intended for long trip usage (to borrow Tesla's words from their shareholder meeting). There's a ton of people who will do anything to save a buck and Tesla knows that, like we all do.
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Canuck said: ?

The truth of the matter is that no one here knows what Tesla's plans are, despite categorical statements by some to the contrary. Only time will tell. I would just point out that if Tesla planned "free" Supercharging for the Model 3, like the S & X, it sure is strange that they haven't announced it. I guess the only explanation for that is they don't want more orders. My explanation is that it opens them up to customers using them "aggressively" for local travel, even though the stations are only intended for long trip usage (to borrow Tesla's words from their shareholder meeting). There's a ton of people who will do anything to save a buck and Tesla knows that, like we all do.
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I've avoided jumping into this conversation, precisely because it doesn't really tell us what Tesla will do. We have had long threads about this and they went nowhere. We'll know more at the part two unveiling.
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stopcrazypp said: ?

I've avoided jumping into this conversation, precisely because it doesn't really tell us what Tesla will do. We have had long threads about this and they went nowhere. We'll know more at the part two unveiling.
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Wait, didn't you just jump into it? ...
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Canuck said: ?

The truth of the matter is that no one here knows what Tesla's plans are, despite categorical statements by some to the contrary. Only time will tell. I would just point out that if Tesla planned "free" Supercharging for the Model 3, like the S & X, it sure is strange that they haven't announced it. I guess the only explanation for that is they don't want more orders. My explanation is that it opens them up to customers using them "aggressively" for local travel, even though the stations are only intended for long trip usage (to borrow Tesla's words from their shareholder meeting). There's a ton of people who will do anything to save a buck and Tesla knows that, like we all do.
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Except for people with very light driving (150 miles a week or less), I don't think using a Supercharger for local travel is going to be realistic whether Tesla allows it or not.

1) People will not want to go there and sit for a half hour regularly. The people in my life already find a 3 minute fillup at a gas station to be frustrating. Once they realize that even a 110V line on a regular basis will be enough, they'll switch very quickly.

2) The price difference is not that great. The people buying these cars make much more on a per hour basis than the cost of charging their car and so sitting around and waiting is not worth it. For most, it's not placed at a location that is really close by either.
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Canuck said: ?

How can you not have access to a charge but access to a Supercharger? On plugshare, there's lots of public EVSE's located by the Superchargers. Yes, you might have to pay for them, and they won't be as fast, but there's many ways to charge other than by way of locals charging at Superchargers. If that happens, we can pretty much say 'goodbye' to long distance travel in our Tesla's since you can't expect Tesla to inspect everyone's home to see if they really don't have access to home charging; and we know people will use anything as an excuse to save a buck, especially if they have a Model 3 and a nearby Supercharger, which is going to be case once the hundreds of thousands of Model 3's start rolling off the assembly lines.
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So... what you're saying is that if I don't have a home/work charging setup, my solution is to go to a public charging station and HOPE nobody is there, then charge my car for 6 hours and do... what exactly?

I live at home. I don't live at the Red Robin parking lot. How can you even suggest this is a feasible option for somebody who can't charge anywhere else? You seriously expect them to eat up what amounts to an entire day just to get a week's charge?
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eisbock said: ?

So... what you're saying is that if I don't have a home/work charging setup, my solution is to go to a public charging station and HOPE nobody is there, then charge my car for 6 hours and do... what exactly?

I live at home. I don't live at the Red Robin parking lot. How can you even suggest this is a feasible option for somebody who can't charge anywhere else? You seriously expect them to eat up what amounts to an entire day just to get a week's charge?
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I'm not suggesting it's a feasible option for everyone. I was just suggesting that most people who have access to a Supercharger probably have access to other options for charging. I know for me, if I couldn't charge at home, there's public chargers at the mall across the street from my office. Now, I wouldn't need them every day, but it would easily work for me. Others have charging at their office and that works for them. Some people have public chargers within walking distance of their home. But those who don't have any other option other than local Superchargers, like you, may want to think twice about buying a Tesla if your plan is for charging at the local Supercharger since that is not the purpose of the Superchargers, and it never has been the plan.

Supercharging
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Canuck said: ?

Wait, didn't you just jump into it? ...
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Not really, I'm tiptoeing around it. I have my own opinion of what Tesla should do with the supercharger network (which I laid out in a different thread), but I'm not bringing it up here because I can see it igniting more discussion that doesn't really go anywhere.
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Canuck said: ?

With regard to locals charging, Tesla frowns upon it,
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How much they frown on something or make claims about what they intended or try to shame people by talking about being cool is completely irrelevant to one's rights to use the SC.

If they want to have what they intended, they need to make changes for people who are buying cars today. The fact that they haven't after this attempted shaming 8 months (?) ago, just shows that they don't care enough to change it.
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Drivin said: ?

How much they frown on something or make claims about what they intended or try to shame people by talking about being cool is completely irrelevant to one's rights to use the SC.

If they want to have what they intended, they need to make changes for people who are buying cars today. The fact that they haven't after this attempted shaming 18 months (?) ago, just shows that they don't care enough to change it.
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No, they don't need to make changes for Model S and X owners. There's just not enough of them to be too concerned about, plus we paid $2,500 in the price of our vehicles for Supercharging (except for those with 60's that didn't pay). Do you really expect the Model 3 to be able to charge free yet some 60 owners can't SC charge at all without payment of a fee of $2,500 to enable it?

Tesla � Enable Supercharging

The Model 3 will be a whole different ball game. This is mass market stuff. Not luxury vehicle numbers.

So to bring the discussion back, we're talking about the Model 3 here and whether those who don't have home charging can charge at SC's. My prediction is the Model 3 will be a pay per use SC system which will solve this problem.

stopcrazypp said: ?

because I can see it igniting more discussion that doesn't really go anywhere.
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So some of the discussions here go somewhere? When has that ever happened?

Come on, jump in.
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Canuck said: ?

The truth of the matter is that no one here knows what Tesla's plans are, despite categorical statements by some to the contrary. Only time will tell. I would just point out that if Tesla planned "free" Supercharging for the Model 3, like the S & X, it sure is strange that they haven't announced it. I guess the only explanation for that is they don't want more orders. My explanation is that it opens them up to customers using them "aggressively" for local travel, even though the stations are only intended for long trip usage (to borrow Tesla's words from their shareholder meeting). There's a ton of people who will do anything to save a buck and Tesla knows that, like we all do.
Click to expand...

Well, I can tell this won't be a brief response... one good diatribe deserves another, and then we'll have to agree to disagree.

With regard to your diatribe prior to the post quoted above, the first point that comes to mind is that your lack of awareness of senior management's position and a misinterpretation of other statements does not entitle you to demand citations from owners/shareholders, neither of which you appear to be. Further, it does not appear that you've been to or have any experience whatsoever with any of the very few superchargers often cited as problem children. So with regard to what is therefore purely an academic discussion from your standpoint, let's begin:

Let's start with one of your "citations" - the picture of a crowded supercharger - as evidence of those darned freeloading locals - and let's for the sake of argument, pretend that they're all garaged locals, even though there's exactly no way for you to know this. As pointed out above, that's a DISTANCE supercharger - ain't no locals to speak of around there. Citing a rare example of a clogged DISTANCE SC during a busy holiday weekend rather weakens your attempt at a case persecuting virtually non-existent locals who may use DENSITY SCs. While occasional cases have occurred (see SJC), exceptions do not make the rule - not to mention that when you have (as was the case for years) a single SC in the densest county (county with the most owners on the continent), the root cause is clear. Now that there are 3 SCs in the OC, things will remain occasionally clogged until an SC goes into North San Diego County. That's a reality you won't get from an academic discussion.

Moving on to Elon's quote - again had you any experience with DENSITY SCs, you might have noted that the locals to which reference was made include LIVERY. Livery uses SCs up to 4x/day, whereas the average local *might* use an SC once a week. Before you go whining for quotes or question whether I have inside information, consider that I might have been told what I've typed above *by multiple livery owners* while they are supercharging. Again, if you want exceptions, great - but if you want actual trends as witnessed by those at ground zero of DENSITY SCs, well, that would presume you actually want real information rather than to merely persecute, or prosecute, the insignificant problem of locals with or without garages. Your approach is analogous to another victim of shallow thinking - voter fraud. To hear certain folks tell the story, America is overrun with voter fraud. What follows is the usual self-righteous pablum of people demanding citations and otherwise when in fact, cases of voter fraud in America are, wait for it, statistically insignificant.

Here's just one example and why I quoted your post above: For almost 2 years now, Tesla has committed to both DENSITY as well as DISTANCE for their supercharger rollout. The fact that you state otherwise does not make that reality any less true. While it is true that livery has been a challenge globally (see Schiphol, and the SCs between LAX and OC (John Wayne) airports), even their impact has been deemed manageable. Hence senior management's pronouncement last month (hint - as quoted in an electrek.co article), and Straubel's words as quoted in this very forum (surprised you missed that) - both referenced in my previous post. As much as you may not like it, DENSITY includes those darned non-garaged locals, and livery.

Finally, and this isn't directed at your attempts at arguments specifically, but toward anyone who actually thinks that those who can't charge at home or at work should not own a Tesla, simply be aware that such a position is 100% contrary to Tesla's very mission. As a shareholder, I find that to be decidedly unhelpful.

With regard to the fables about clogged SCs: Your own citations above fail to demonstrate an actual understanding of the problem on the ground rather than, and this is important, *what the problem COULD BE*. Capitals for emphasis - not shouting. And as an academic discussion, I say by all means, have at it. With regard to the Model 3, it makes sense for the base model to not have SCing enabled - solely because, at last estimate, 90% of owners do not use SCs. Further, with regard to the demographic in question, most people in metropolitan areas don't leave a 50-mile radius as a rule. I would note, and you may not have been around for this, when Iacocca launched the Mustang in 1964 (and a half), he insisted that it not have a radio - his intention was that it be as affordable as possible as he intended for it to be a family sedan. Point being that if I don't plan to SC, but know I can enable it at any time for a fee, I wouldn't want to pay for it either - see AP Convenience Features as a similar case.

Simply be aware that to continue to spread misinformation with regard to senior management's endorsement of free (I prefer "included") supercharging is simply disingenuous at best. And to persecute ALL locals is the same.

You won't find garaged locals in significant numbers at SCs because in the end, I believe that people are more lazy than cheap. You appear to believe that people are more cheap than lazy. OK, fine.

But herein is the fork in the road - I believe that Tesla has already thought this through, and yes, based upon the statements of which you are clearly unaware (business model fine to 1M cars, free supercharging sustainable indefinitely), there will be no hinky pay per use schemes. Context again is within the first 1M units and with the words "free" and "sustainable". All of this is published in the public domain and there if you'd bother searching for it - it is not my job to spoonfeed you citations just because you don't like the message and because I object to the persecution of locals, garaged or otherwise, when the company has been on record for almost two years to the contrary.

Well, I think that's everything so far - as far as the letter goes, it was and is indefensible as stated repeatedly by communications professionals in this very forum - again, a lack of awareness does not a credible argument make.

You either believe Tesla will manage SC demand just fine within the parameters (or lack thereof) stated above or you don't. I do. Have a little faith .
�

What if the 3 isn't the problem, instead it's people driving on their Bolt to charge their Powerwall??
�

TaoJones said: ?

Well, I can tell this won't be a brief response... one good diatribe deserves another, and then we'll have to agree to disagree.

With regard to your diatribe prior to the post quoted above, the first point that comes to mind is that your lack of awareness of senior management's position and a misinterpretation of other statements does not entitle you to demand citations from owners/shareholders, neither of which you appear to be. Further, it does not appear that you've been to or have any experience whatsoever with any of the very few superchargers often cited as problem children. So with regard to what is therefore purely an academic discussion from your standpoint, let's begin:

Let's start with one of your "citations" - the picture of a crowded supercharger - as evidence of those darned freeloading locals - and let's for the sake of argument, pretend that they're all garaged locals, even though there's exactly no way for you to know this. As pointed out above, that's a DISTANCE supercharger - ain't no locals to speak of around there. Citing a rare example of a clogged DISTANCE SC during a busy holiday weekend rather weakens your attempt at a case persecuting virtually non-existent locals who may use DENSITY SCs. While occasional cases have occurred (see SJC), exceptions do not make the rule - not to mention that when you have (as was the case for years) a single SC in the densest county (county with the most owners on the continent), the root cause is clear. Now that there are 3 SCs in the OC, things will remain occasionally clogged until an SC goes into North San Diego County. That's a reality you won't get from an academic discussion.

Moving on to Elon's quote - again had you any experience with DENSITY SCs, you might have noted that the locals to which reference was made include LIVERY. Livery uses SCs up to 4x/day, whereas the average local *might* use an SC once a week. Before you go whining for quotes or question whether I have inside information, consider that I might have been told what I've typed above *by multiple livery owners* while they are supercharging. Again, if you want exceptions, great - but if you want actual trends as witnessed by those at ground zero of DENSITY SCs, well, that would presume you actually want real information rather than to merely persecute, or prosecute, the insignificant problem of locals with or without garages. Your approach is analogous to another victim of shallow thinking - voter fraud. To hear certain folks tell the story, America is overrun with voter fraud. What follows is the usual self-righteous pablum of people demanding citations and otherwise when in fact, cases of voter fraud in America are, wait for it, statistically insignificant.

Here's just one example and why I quoted your post above: For almost 2 years now, Tesla has committed to both DENSITY as well as DISTANCE for their supercharger rollout. The fact that you state otherwise does not make that reality any less true. While it is true that livery has been a challenge globally (see Schiphol, and the SCs between LAX and OC (John Wayne) airports), even their impact has been deemed manageable. Hence senior management's pronouncement last month (hint - as quoted in an electrek.co article), and Straubel's words as quoted in this very forum (surprised you missed that) - both referenced in my previous post. As much as you may not like it, DENSITY includes those darned non-garaged locals, and livery.

Finally, and this isn't directed at your attempts at arguments specifically, but toward anyone who actually thinks that those who can't charge at home or at work should not own a Tesla, simply be aware that such a position is 100% contrary to Tesla's very mission. As a shareholder, I find that to be decidedly unhelpful.

With regard to the fables about clogged SCs: Your own citations above fail to demonstrate an actual understanding of the problem on the ground rather than, and this is important, *what the problem COULD BE*. Capitals for emphasis - not shouting. And as an academic discussion, I say by all means, have at it. With regard to the Model 3, it makes sense for the base model to not have SCing enabled - solely because, at last estimate, 90% of owners do not use SCs. Further, with regard to the demographic in question, most people in metropolitan areas don't leave a 50-mile radius as a rule. I would note, and you may not have been around for this, when Iacocca launched the Mustang in 1964 (and a half), he insisted that it not have a radio - his intention was that it be as affordable as possible as he intended for it to be a family sedan. Point being that if I don't plan to SC, but know I can enable it at any time for a fee, I wouldn't want to pay for it either - see AP Convenience Features as a similar case.

Simply be aware that to continue to spread misinformation with regard to senior management's endorsement of free (I prefer "included") supercharging is simply disingenuous at best. And to persecute ALL locals is the same.

You won't find garaged locals in significant numbers at SCs because in the end, I believe that people are more lazy than cheap. You appear to believe that people are more cheap than lazy. OK, fine.

But herein is the fork in the road - I believe that Tesla has already thought this through, and yes, based upon the statements of which you are clearly unaware (business model fine to 1M cars, free supercharging sustainable indefinitely), there will be no hinky pay per use schemes. Context again is within the first 1M units and with the words "free" and "sustainable". All of this is published in the public domain and there if you'd bother searching for it - it is not my job to spoonfeed you citations just because you don't like the message and because I object to the persecution of locals, garaged or otherwise, when the company has been on record for almost two years to the contrary.

Well, I think that's everything so far - as far as the letter goes, it was and is indefensible as stated repeatedly by communications professionals in this very forum - again, a lack of awareness does not a credible argument make.

You either believe Tesla will manage SC demand just fine within the parameters (or lack thereof) stated above or you don't. I do. Have a little faith .
Click to expand...

TL;DR--are you a lawyer?
�

Canuck said: ?

No, they don't need to make changes for Model S and X owners. There's just not enough of them to be too concerned about, plus we paid $2,500 in the price of our vehicles for Supercharging (except for those with 60's that didn't pay). Do you really expect the Model 3 to be able to charge free yet some 60 owners can't SC charge at all without payment of a fee of $2,500 to enable it?

.
Click to expand...

I said nothing about current owners, I said for people buying cars today (e.g. define specific rules for new owners, if they want to make a change).
Whether or not 60 owners opted to pay more to have SC included is irrelevant as to whether or not it is included in the price of a Model 3.
�

TaoJones said: ?

Well, I can tell this won't be a brief response... one good diatribe deserves another, and then we'll have to agree to disagree.

With regard to your diatribe prior to the post quoted above, the first point that comes to mind is that your lack of awareness of senior management's position and a misinterpretation of other statements does not entitle you to demand citations from owners/shareholders, neither of which you appear to be. Further, it does not appear that you've been to or have any experience whatsoever with any of the very few superchargers often cited as problem children. So with regard to what is therefore purely an academic discussion from your standpoint, let's begin:

Let's start with one of your "citations" - the picture of a crowded supercharger - as evidence of those darned freeloading locals - and let's for the sake of argument, pretend that they're all garaged locals, even though there's exactly no way for you to know this. As pointed out above, that's a DISTANCE supercharger - ain't no locals to speak of around there. Citing a rare example of a clogged DISTANCE SC during a busy holiday weekend rather weakens your attempt at a case persecuting virtually non-existent locals who may use DENSITY SCs. While occasional cases have occurred (see SJC), exceptions do not make the rule - not to mention that when you have (as was the case for years) a single SC in the densest county (county with the most owners on the continent), the root cause is clear. Now that there are 3 SCs in the OC, things will remain occasionally clogged until an SC goes into North San Diego County. That's a reality you won't get from an academic discussion.

Moving on to Elon's quote - again had you any experience with DENSITY SCs, you might have noted that the locals to which reference was made include LIVERY. Livery uses SCs up to 4x/day, whereas the average local *might* use an SC once a week. Before you go whining for quotes or question whether I have inside information, consider that I might have been told what I've typed above *by multiple livery owners* while they are supercharging. Again, if you want exceptions, great - but if you want actual trends as witnessed by those at ground zero of DENSITY SCs, well, that would presume you actually want real information rather than to merely persecute, or prosecute, the insignificant problem of locals with or without garages. Your approach is analogous to another victim of shallow thinking - voter fraud. To hear certain folks tell the story, America is overrun with voter fraud. What follows is the usual self-righteous pablum of people demanding citations and otherwise when in fact, cases of voter fraud in America are, wait for it, statistically insignificant.

Here's just one example and why I quoted your post above: For almost 2 years now, Tesla has committed to both DENSITY as well as DISTANCE for their supercharger rollout. The fact that you state otherwise does not make that reality any less true. While it is true that livery has been a challenge globally (see Schiphol, and the SCs between LAX and OC (John Wayne) airports), even their impact has been deemed manageable. Hence senior management's pronouncement last month (hint - as quoted in an electrek.co article), and Straubel's words as quoted in this very forum (surprised you missed that) - both referenced in my previous post. As much as you may not like it, DENSITY includes those darned non-garaged locals, and livery.

Finally, and this isn't directed at your attempts at arguments specifically, but toward anyone who actually thinks that those who can't charge at home or at work should not own a Tesla, simply be aware that such a position is 100% contrary to Tesla's very mission. As a shareholder, I find that to be decidedly unhelpful.

With regard to the fables about clogged SCs: Your own citations above fail to demonstrate an actual understanding of the problem on the ground rather than, and this is important, *what the problem COULD BE*. Capitals for emphasis - not shouting. And as an academic discussion, I say by all means, have at it. With regard to the Model 3, it makes sense for the base model to not have SCing enabled - solely because, at last estimate, 90% of owners do not use SCs. Further, with regard to the demographic in question, most people in metropolitan areas don't leave a 50-mile radius as a rule. I would note, and you may not have been around for this, when Iacocca launched the Mustang in 1964 (and a half), he insisted that it not have a radio - his intention was that it be as affordable as possible as he intended for it to be a family sedan. Point being that if I don't plan to SC, but know I can enable it at any time for a fee, I wouldn't want to pay for it either - see AP Convenience Features as a similar case.

Simply be aware that to continue to spread misinformation with regard to senior management's endorsement of free (I prefer "included") supercharging is simply disingenuous at best. And to persecute ALL locals is the same.

You won't find garaged locals in significant numbers at SCs because in the end, I believe that people are more lazy than cheap. You appear to believe that people are more cheap than lazy. OK, fine.

But herein is the fork in the road - I believe that Tesla has already thought this through, and yes, based upon the statements of which you are clearly unaware (business model fine to 1M cars, free supercharging sustainable indefinitely), there will be no hinky pay per use schemes. Context again is within the first 1M units and with the words "free" and "sustainable". All of this is published in the public domain and there if you'd bother searching for it - it is not my job to spoonfeed you citations just because you don't like the message and because I object to the persecution of locals, garaged or otherwise, when the company has been on record for almost two years to the contrary.

Well, I think that's everything so far - as far as the letter goes, it was and is indefensible as stated repeatedly by communications professionals in this very forum - again, a lack of awareness does not a credible argument make.

You either believe Tesla will manage SC demand just fine within the parameters (or lack thereof) stated above or you don't. I do. Have a little faith .
Click to expand...

good lord... someone has a lot of time on their hands... didn't even bother -_-
�

This horse has been more than beaten to death, it has been crushed, cremated and scattered to the four winds. However I will add my opinion as simply an owner and EV enthusiast.

The solution for those without home charging is and will be the availability of supercharging. Elon has repeatedly stated that. How that will be financed when there are 1 million plus Tesla's on the road is known only to Tesla. Personally I do not think that free supercharging forever for millions of cars is sustainable. It would not be difficult to set up a pay per use or timed subscription model. It would make sense to make the cost slightly more expensive than home charging to encourage that, but not high enough to be a burden to those who simply do not have access to home charging. As one who does 90 percent of his driving in town and has a supercharger within 10 miles, I have never used the local supercharger. Home charging is so much more convenient. With my 50 mile per day driving I would have to sit at the supercharger for 30 minutes or so 1-2 times weekly, when I take 15 seconds at most daily plugging and unplugging at home. I have business trips of 200-300 miles several time a month and use the superchargers along the way for those. Here in Indiana, the locations are all along major interstates and there are generally 0-2 cars there when I charge.

Tesla's challenge will be to gauge the demand and continue to build out the network with both density and distance SC's to keep up. The supercharger network is Tesla's true ace in the hole against GM, Nissan, BMW, and Porsche. None of them seem to have any interest in developing a long distance charging solution, and without that all their EV's are just city cars.
�

sports4eva115 said: ?

good lord... someone has a lot of time on their hands... didn't even bother -_-
Click to expand...

and yet you have enough time to tell us that you didn't bother and to have a substance-free addition to this topic.
go figure.
�

Drivin said: ?

and yet you have enough time to tell us that you didn't bother and to have a substance-free addition to this topic.
go figure.
Click to expand...

Yup! 30 sec vs however long that post took!
I appreciate the post being there for people who actually want to read it. Great contribution!
�

My bottom line. If I pay for supercharging....I'm going to use it. Local or not.

No one is going to sell me something and then tell me I can't use it. Period.
�

Original supercharging fee was outrageous...
Sure there's a convenience and maintenance factor but the original $2000 at the typical electricity price in the midwest of $0.12/kW would have paid for nearly 16,667 kW of electricity. If 60kW lasted you a week then it would take over five years straight of charging solely at a supercharger to make up that expense at current energy prices assuming they received no discount for non-peak charging.

If the supercharger has land with solar panels and Tesla power racks then the costs to Tesla beside the initial build and ongoing maintenance would be virtually nothing for the electricity itself as long as the sun still shines.
�

I used EVtrip and it evaluated that if I drove a MS85D 100 miles ( 49 miles each way to work) then it would cost me $1.60 to charge my Tesla back up.

Really? Do you know how many charges I would get for the price I pay for Super Charging? Come on.... A Multi Billion dollar company is going to squabble with me over $1.60 every 2 to 3 days? Come on.
�

Tesla spokesperson to the New York Times late last year:

"We wanted to move to an urban charging network that meets the needs of those who live in apartments or commute into a big city
Click to expand...

There are some people who don't have a choice. Either they have no house to charge at or they'd have to pay outrageous prices at some of the local level 2 charging stations (higher cost to charge than a tank of gas).
�

Canuck said: ?

Thank you. You proved my point. And there's a ton more people just like you. You don't care that when you paid for Supercharging, Tesla said it was for long distant travel. You're going to use it "local or not". You don't care that when Tesla "sold you something", it was not local charging but long distance travel. You will completely disregard that, and play the "victim" role, as if you have been sold something you "can't use".

This is why, as a society, we default to the lowest common denominator and anything good gets trashed. Try leaving out a bowl of candy on Halloween with a sign to only take one. Our species fails the test. I guess it makes sense since we're barely out of the jungles as a species and evolution has taught us to be selfish. It's too bad we can't collectively rise above that.
Click to expand...

Are you saying that TESLA is selling people a product that they don't want them to use?

I have to give it to TESLA.....that's the business move of the century.
�

Hmmmm I wonder if I can remove Supercharging from my 90D.....

What do you guys think?
�

Garlan Garner said: ?

Are you saying that TESLA is selling people a product that they don't want them to use?
Click to expand...

Seriously? Is this really that difficult of a concept to grasp?

Tesla is selling a product they want you to use as much as you need and want -- with only one very simple caveat -- it's for long distance travel only!

I use it twice most weekends. In fact, I used the Supercharger in Hope, BC yesterday and I will use it again tomorrow. It's halfway on my long distance travels from my home to my cabin where I try to spend most weekends.

Use it to your heart's content. Just use it for long distance travel only and not for your daily charge.

Got it?
�

[QUOTE="Canuck, post: 1534258, member: 18896]

Use it to your heart's content. Just use it for long distance travel only and not for your daily charge.

Got it?[/QUOTE]

Well there you go, the second silliest thing on the internet today. You aren't allowed to use the car for local travel.

if people cared about the environment they would use public transport for long distance travel
�

Drivin said: ?

Well there you go, the second silliest thing on the internet today. You aren't allowed to use the car for local travel.
Click to expand...

What? This place has gone nuts lately. You can use the car for local travel. You can't use Superchargers for local charging.

Drivin said: ?

if people cared about the environment they would use public transport for long distance travel
Click to expand...

The only public transit around here is by way of fossil fuels. My car runs on rain/snow water. BC is 95% hydroelectric! BC Hydro - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So please get off of your high horse.

But even if you were right, you can reduce everything. In fact, committing suicide is the best thing for the environment. Next is having no children. I'll count out both and drive an EV.

Relative Privation
�

Back on topic:

IMHO, buy the biggest battery you can afford for the model 3. Also here's a guy on Youtube with some charging options for rentals.

�

GoTslaGo said: ?

Back on topic:

IMHO, buy the biggest battery you can afford for the model 3. Also here's a guy on Youtube with some charging options for rentals.

Click to expand...

Awesome, thanks for the link!
�

^^^^
Welcome! I'm hoping that Tesla's new daisy chained HPWC option will be a viable alternative for rentals. Indoor and outdoor use.

Tesla � Wall Connector with 24' Cable

Features:

Integrated cable management

13 levels of configurable circuit breaker settings, from 15 amps to 100 amps

Power sharing feature that allows a single circuit breaker to be connected and shared, servicing up to 4 Wall Connectors - an optimized solution for customers with multiple Tesla vehicles

Designed for indoor or outdoor installation

For bullet #3, maybe a "solution for multiple Tesla customers..."
�

GoTslaGo said: ?

Back on topic:

IMHO, buy the biggest battery you can afford for the model 3. Also here's a guy on Youtube with some charging options for rentals.
Click to expand...

It's a way to boost the 110V charging, but doesn't really necessarily help the situation where you don't have a garage and you have to have the cable traverse a sidewalk to connect.

GoTslaGo said: ?

^^^^
Welcome! I'm hoping that Tesla's new daisy chained HPWC option will be a viable alternative for rentals. Indoor and outdoor use.
Click to expand...

Still hardwired though, so would still need permission from the owner to install. Also, the owner might prefer J1772.
�

Interesting you mention the J1772. Here's a guy who made an adapter for his BMW i3 (HPWC to J1772). Used an HPWC to charge his i3.

This may make the HPWC daisy chain option more economical for an owner or owners to install (and potential new revenue stream for Tesla?).

That being said. J1772 charging options do seem considerably cheaper. Found this installation site:

J1772 Adapter | Home

The cable--sidewalk thing. That's the hard part.
�

GoTslaGo said: ?

Interesting you mention the J1772. Here's a guy who made an adapter for his BMW i3 (HPWC to J1772). Used an HPWC to charge his i3.

This may make the HPWC daisy chain option more economical for an owner or owners to install (and potential new revenue stream for Tesla?).

That being said. J1772 charging options do seem considerably cheaper. Found this installation site:

J1772 Adapter | Home
Click to expand...

We had a long thread on the ethics of such adapters (the video clearly shows "Tesla charging only" so it's not even a grey area).
Concerns about Tesla to non-Tesla charging adapters

I doubt Tesla will be building such an adapter as it defeats the purpose of the proprietary connector in the first place (Tesla hopes other automakers will adopt Tesla's connector and invest proportionately in the infrastructure). It also circumvents Tesla's destination charging network: there are some J1772 also installed, but the HPWC are in a 2:1 ratio in order to make sure they are primarily available for Tesla owners (and if any automaker adopts Tesla's connector).
�

@stopcrazypp, Thanks for the link. Will go through and study some more about it.

Just thinking that since Tesla has moved forward with daisy chained capable HPWC that it would be a nice way to increase home/rental charging capacity and offload demand (whether real or not) on supercharger use. Would be nice to see greater orders of the daisy chain capable HPWCs for apartments/work garages etc... Especially if it is an easier way for the owners to provide charging capacity. In that case even non-proprietary adapters would be nice to allow more vehicles to use the HPWCs (and for apartment owners increase the pool of potential EV renters).

I know in that example it's a clear violation of the sign. However if I had an apartment complex and wanted to find a solution that renters would want to use, the daisy chained HPWC would seem to be a great solution (since it self-regulates). Especially if there are adapters out there that non-Teslas could use and thus not constrain me to only Tesla owners.

Street parking will be an issue.
�

Canuck said: ?

Seriously? Is this really that difficult of a concept to grasp?

Tesla is selling a product they want you to use as much as you need and want -- with only one very simple caveat -- it's for long distance travel only!

I use it twice most weekends. In fact, I used the Supercharger in Hope, BC yesterday and I will use it again tomorrow. It's halfway on my long distance travels from my home to my cabin where I try to spend most weekends.

Use it to your heart's content. Just use it for long distance travel only and not for your daily charge.

Got it?
Click to expand...

You aren't hearing me. There is a Super Charging option that costs $2500 when you buy the car. If Super Charging was a free option...then YES I would not even attempt to use the Super Chargers. I at least want $2500 in charging.

What is the problem with that? I pay $2500 for supercharging and I use $2500 worth of super charging.

Oh I get it...you want people to pay $2500 for super charging and not use it at all.....I see.
�

Canuck said: ?

So some of the discussions here go somewhere? When has that ever happened?

Come on, jump in.
Click to expand...

Sure, why not?

The fix for this is a metered charge ($) for Supercharger use within a geo-fenced radius of the registered address of the vehicle. Let's call it 20 miles. Charge a rate significantly higher than the prevailing electricity rate inside that area. $$ is the only fair and effective way to regulate the use of anything. If you choose to live somewhere where you can't home charge, it's your choice to swipe the card, move, or not buy the vehicle. Choices.

On a side note, I hope the IT team that generated the query results for the "letter" isn't the same team building the geo-fencing logic for any future charging mechanism. Seriously? You can't accurately write the queries, and spot check / validate the results before you send out a letter admonishing a targeted group of customers?

As an IT guy, I find it disturbing that a technology company can't get the basics right...

Tesla Letter To Rein In Local Supercharger Use Goes Wrong
�

GoTslaGo said: ?

Interesting you mention the J1772. Here's a guy who made an adapter for his BMW i3 (HPWC to J1772). Used an HPWC to charge his i3.

This may make the HPWC daisy chain option more economical for an owner or owners to install (and potential new revenue stream for Tesla?).

That being said. J1772 charging options do seem considerably cheaper. Found this installation site:

J1772 Adapter | Home

The cable--sidewalk thing. That's the hard part.
Click to expand...

This is totally wrong. They didn't pay Tesla $2500 up front for anything.
�

I believe this Charging issue is going to take on the pattern of internet access.

Initially we paid by the minute of usage time.....now it's almost free everywhere.
�

Garlan Garner said: ?

I pay $2500 for supercharging and I use $2500 worth of super charging
Click to expand...

Ok, so let's say it costs Tesla $2000 (per car) of the $2500 to actually fund the site plan, building and long term maintenance of the site. That gives you rights to $500 worth of electricity over the lifetime of the car.

Guessing you aren't going to charge overnight at the supercharger, that would be inconvenient, but instead use it during peak daily periods where the local utilities have "peak demand based pricing + charges", you will effectively be using electricity which is much more expensive for Tesla to purchase, than that cheap overnight electricity you could pay for at your own house should you choose to charge at home like the majority of us.

Let's say the demand charges raise the price to $.25/kWh, let's say the Model 3 has 54kWh usable storage, that is just less than 40 full (0-100) or 80 "half" supercharges at the $500 you feel you have pre-paid for.

Any bet's on someone who's making the "I'll take what's mine" statements will stay within their "paid rights"...
Hmmm....

At least here in Ontario, we will have a lot of options over the next few years as our government funds DC fast charger roll out. Most will be 50 kW, and they'll charge $10/hr, but whatever, if you need to charge, you pay to charge.

In 35000 km of EV driving over 2.5 years, I've charged at home 99% of the time, it's cheap and easy. There are hundreds of free charging stations around me, but why would I use them when charging overnight in my garage is so convenient, and makes use of the surplus overnight power production here?
�

Garlan Garner said: ?

You aren't hearing me. There is a Super Charging option that costs $2500 when you buy the car. If Super Charging was a free option...then YES I would not even attempt to use the Super Chargers. I at least want $2500 in charging.

What is the problem with that? I pay $2500 for supercharging and I use $2500 worth of super charging.

Oh I get it...you want people to pay $2500 for super charging and not use it at all.....I see.
Click to expand...

He's not saying don't use superchargers at all, he is saying use it for its intended purpose (he argues long distance driving). In actuality, Tesla policy explicitly allows those with no easy access to home charging to use superchargers (that was what the city chargers in large cities like Hong Kong were installed for).

However, Tesla had never suggested they wanted people to use it as a replacement for home charging when that option was easily available (that was the subject of the letter about local supercharging). Tesla had also adjusted their strategy somewhat: they suggested they would install city superchargers in NYC and SF years ago, but recently in NYC ,Tesla said they would install slower destination chargers instead (in paid parking garages).
�

Here's a solution:

ELON MUSK:

We�re putting Superchargers in cities, not just between cities. And this is obviously important in places like, you know, Beijing, Shanghai, London, San Francisco, New York, where at times people may have a challenge with having a fixed parking space. It�s more like some of those people don�t have a definitive parking space. And they might have street parking or something, you know. London is particularly tricky one; where there�s � it�s got lot of high-end neighborhoods just have street parking.

Tesla Earnings Call Transcript Q1 2014 � Complete Conference Call - Insider Monkey

I'd hope some of the people telling people not to Supercharge would remember that not everyone has charging, let alone parking.
�

callmesam said: ?

Here's a solution:

ELON MUSK:

We�re putting Superchargers in cities, not just between cities. And this is obviously important in places like, you know, Beijing, Shanghai, London, San Francisco, New York, where at times people may have a challenge with having a fixed parking space. It�s more like some of those people don�t have a definitive parking space. And they might have street parking or something, you know. London is particularly tricky one; where there�s � it�s got lot of high-end neighborhoods just have street parking.

Tesla Earnings Call Transcript Q1 2014 � Complete Conference Call - Insider Monkey

I'd hope some of the people telling people not to Supercharge would remember that not everyone has charging, let alone parking.
Click to expand...

Yep, that's exactly what I was talking about. But do note that it does not mention that these superchargers were for locals who already have home charging, and also note the date is from 2 years ago. As I noted, the San Francisco, New York stations are still nowhere to be seen (New York has a JFK station, but none in the actual Manhattan city area, much less a cluster of them, as they done in other cities). And Tesla recently switched strategy in New York to destination chargers in paid garages, not superchargers.
http://nypost.com/2016/03/17/tesla-stations-in-nyc-on-verge-of-outnumbering-gas-stations/
�

stopcrazypp said: ?

Yep, that's exactly what I was talking about. But do note that it does not mention that these superchargers were for locals who already have home charging, and also note the date is from 2 years ago. As I noted, the San Francisco, New York stations are still nowhere to be seen (New York has a JFK station, but none in the actual Manhattan city area, much less a cluster of them, as they done in other cities). And Tesla recently switched strategy in New York to destination chargers in paid garages, not superchargers.
http://nypost.com/2016/03/17/tesla-stations-in-nyc-on-verge-of-outnumbering-gas-stations/
Click to expand...

All Superchargers are for locals without home charging.

I guess I missed that above from you and Canuck.

Since this thread is "What you do if you don't have a garage" then one answer is to Supercharge.
�

Canuck said: ?

What? This place has gone nuts lately. You can use the car for local travel. You can't use Superchargers for local charging.
...
So please get off of your high horse.
...
Click to expand...

Except the non-garaged *can* use SCs for local charging. Garaged locals, as a rule, do not, and the few that do certainly don't charge on an extended daily basis (this is made-up hyperbole with zero basis in reality) - *except for livery* (which is a commercial outlier).

Why spend so much time chasing ghosts, when Tesla is on record for 2 years as supporting local charging (just not by the garaged, who account for 2/3 of the homes in the US)? Let it go. See voter fraud in the US. Just because it can exist does not mean it does exist in any significant measure. Yet much handwringing ensues for political gain with the underlying motive being to reduce lower-income voter participation. In this thread, there seems to be a poorly-thought-through movement to dissuade those of less means from buying EVs. Same church, different pew.

stopcrazypp said: ?

...
In actuality, Tesla policy explicitly allows those with no easy access to home charging to use superchargers (that was what the city chargers in large cities like Hong Kong were installed for).

However, Tesla had never suggested they wanted people to use it as a replacement for home charging when that option was easily available (that was the subject of the letter about local supercharging).
Click to expand...

Now that quote right there is both accurate and succinct. Sam Clemons would gleefully hand out cigars.

The only gap not referenced is livery and, with the exception of Schiphol, I think it just hasn't risen to a problematic level yet. While it may, as car prices drop, it's not like Tesla doesn't know exactly who most of the livery folks are by their usage patterns.
...

Tesla had also adjusted their strategy somewhat: they suggested they would install city superchargers in NYC and SF years ago, but recently in NYC ,Tesla said they would install slower destination chargers instead (in paid parking garages).
Click to expand...

This approach will be quite interesting to see as it evolves. NYC has 8 million people. LA County and the OC have what, double that? Totally different approaches for the different areas (the latter will continue to get SCs to meet demand). I suspect it has something to do with the per capita car ownership. Many people just don't bother with car ownership in either NYC or SF, yet they live in $2M condos. In LA, it's not about owning a car - it's about how many cars you own. I'm not saying that's a Good Thing. At all.
�

SmartElectric said: ?

Ok, so let's say it costs Tesla $2000 (per car) of the $2500 to actually fund the site plan, building and long term maintenance of the site. That gives you rights to $500 worth of electricity over the lifetime of the car.
Click to expand...

You are still not hearing me. I PAID $2500 for supercharging. I'm not trying to be insensitive - I'm being honest. I really really don't care how much it costs Tesla or anyone else behind the scenes to do anything. I PAID $2500. I really wouldn't mind not super charging at all and have Tesla not charge me $2500. Isn't that fair?

If I don't have a garage....I purchase supercharging for $2500 and use the superchargers. Whats wrong with that?
I'll even pay another $2500 for another $2500 worth of supercharging. I'm not looking for anything free.

No Garage - Supercharge. The problem is that Tesla never asked me if I have a garage.
�

Do you have off-street parking on your property, ie a driveway? It is irrelevant whether or not there is a garage . . . [scurries back into the woods].
�

TaoJones said: ?

This approach will be quite interesting to see as it evolves. NYC has 8 million people. LA County and the OC have what, double that? Totally different approaches for the different areas (the latter will continue to get SCs to meet demand). I suspect it has something to do with the per capita car ownership. Many people just don't bother with car ownership in either NYC or SF, yet they live in $2M condos. In LA, it's not about owning a car - it's about how many cars you own. I'm not saying that's a Good Thing. At all.
Click to expand...

I touched on this before. NYC and SF is much closer to Hong Kong (where the stations have been reported to have chronic congestion) and other "city supercharger" locations mentioned (like Beijing, Shanghai, London). Tesla's actions in NYC seems to suggest they won't be using superchargers to handle city charging, so I don't have hope a supercharger would be installed in SF (unless the payment method changes as I suggested).

LA and OC county may have a high population, but sprawl is also much larger than the cities mentioned. Downtown LA probably is closest in style, but Tesla have not installed a supercharger in there yet.
�

callmesam said: ?

All Superchargers are for locals without home charging.

I guess I missed that above from you and Canuck.

Since this thread is "What you do if you don't have a garage" then one answer is to Supercharge.
Click to expand...

See one comment up from your previous one.
Solution to charge your Model 3 if you don't have any garage?
�

Garlan Garner said: ?

I PAID $2500 for supercharging. I'm not trying to be insensitive - I'm being honest. I really really don't care how much it costs Tesla or anyone else behind the scenes to do anything.
Click to expand...

You claim that Tesla would be somehow taking something from you. Your position is not defensible. Tesla needs to build infrastructure as part of the total offering of their vehicle and it's supporting platform. Will you also try to use every last ounce of the 4g they provide in the vehicle, like making sure you are running high bandwidth web pages from the car constantly?

People pay for lots of things they don't get full use of, but the sum effect is to enable something greater for everyone. Think schools, roads, etc.

Do you feel the same way when buying a gas car, and realizing you PAID for those companies to run ads on TV, but you didn't ever watch those ADS OMG, you PAID!!!!! lol
�

SmartElectric said: ?

Y
People pay for lots of things they don't get full use of, but the sum effect is to enable something greater for everyone. Think schools, roads, etc.
Click to expand...

And some things you pay for for decades hoping that you don't get ANY use of...like life insurance.
�

stopcrazypp said: ?

See one comment up from your previous one.
Solution to charge your Model 3 if you don't have any garage?
Click to expand...

Sorry. Missed your response 49 posts into the thread.
�

callmesam said: ?

Sorry. Missed your response 49 posts into the thread.
Click to expand...

It might have been while you were writing the post quoting Elon. Sometimes I also miss posts because they were posted while I was writing a post.

Anyways, to bring this back on topic, charging at a supercharger is not a viable solution for a garage-less owner in SF until they actually install one here in SF. And as I pointed out, Tesla's actions in NYC suggest they might never do so (at least while still following the same payment model). It'll be interesting to see what happens in part 2 of the Model 3 unveiling.
�

SmartElectric said: ?

You claim that Tesla would be somehow taking something from you. Your position is not defensible. Tesla needs to build infrastructure as part of the total offering of their vehicle and it's supporting platform. Will you also try to use every last ounce of the 4g they provide in the vehicle, like making sure you are running high bandwidth web pages from the car constantly?

People pay for lots of things they don't get full use of, but the sum effect is to enable something greater for everyone. Think schools, roads, etc.

Do you feel the same way when buying a gas car, and realizing you PAID for those companies to run ads on TV, but you didn't ever watch those ADS OMG, you PAID!!!!! lol
Click to expand...

I could care less about what a company uses the money I pay for a product for. I don't care the least bit whether they pay for ads on TV or anything. They can use the money to go to the moon or buy golden toilet seats. I just don't care. When I buy a car from a dealer I NEVER investigate what they do with that money. I have never cared. I don't think about roads, schools, or anything else. If I pay the money for a car....I believe the car is worth the money I paid.

When Tesla says that the car price is XYZ.....I happily pay XYZ if I think its worth it. When Tesla says that an "Option" costs $2500 and then I choose that option, then I expect something for that option. For clarity sake, I called a Tesla sales person in Oakbrook Illinois and they told me to use their SuperCharger as much as I wanted. I AM going to use it to the tune of $2500.
�

Garlan Garner said: ?

When Tesla says that the car price is XYZ.....I happily pay XYZ if I think its worth it. When Tesla says that an "Option" costs $2500 and then I choose that option, then I expect something for that option. For clarity sake, I called a sales person in Oakbrook Illinois and they told me to use their SuperCharger as much as I wanted. I AM going to use it to the tune of $2500.
Click to expand...

I think his point was how do you determine how much usage is $2500? You have to assign that number somehow.

Also, you are neglecting to factor in the hardware/software costs. The way the S60 upgrade was worded was that it paid for the hardware/software. This is similar to how for the Leaf/Spark EV/i3 DC charging cost $700-$750 as an option simply for the hardware/software.
�

stopcrazypp said: ?

It might have been while you were writing the post quoting Elon. Sometimes I also miss posts because they were posted while I was writing a post.

Anyways, to bring this back on topic, charging at a supercharger is not a viable solution for a garage-less owner in SF until they actually install one here in SF. And as I pointed out, Tesla's actions in NYC suggest they might never do so (at least while still following the same payment model). It'll be interesting to see what happens in part 2 of the Model 3 unveiling.
Click to expand...

This OP is in Noe Valley about 17 miles from the Supercharger in San Mateo.

Or if he drives to SV, then he can charge at Mountain View, 35 miles from his house.

Dublin is ~35 miles from his house.

As far as convenience, the Destination Charger program is a better fit than multiple Superchargers in a city center, but none near the OP.
�

callmesam said: ?

This OP is in Noe Valley about 17 miles from the Supercharger in San Mateo.

Or if he drives to SV, then he can charge at Mountain View, 35 miles from his house.

Dublin is ~35 miles from his house.

As far as convenience, the Destination Charger program is a better fit than multiple Superchargers in a city center, but none near the OP.
Click to expand...

Having to drive 30-70 miles to charge (if you count the roundtrip) is not a practical solution for daily driving. It might work if the commute happened to be along the way, but not if the driving is primarily in the city and you weren't heading that way.

I've avoided mentioning it, but I guess I should since I've jumped into the conversation. They can install city superchargers in SF proper as they did in Hong Kong and make them paid (in Hong Kong parking is not free). The only adjustment they might have to make is to make it additional cost: it can't be flat rate parking or discounted parking since that can lead to hogging as happened in Hong Kong, and overall costs should be equivalent or higher than home charging so it is not attractive to locals that don't need it. They may also have to rebrand to keep the "free" promise (name it "urban charger" or something similar).

However, if the plan is only to be completely free, I can see why Tesla has hesitated and is instead moving to a destination charger program.
�

stopcrazypp said: ?

I think his point was how do you determine how much usage is $2500? You have to assign that number somehow.

Also, you are neglecting to factor in the hardware/software costs. The way the S60 upgrade was worded was that it paid for the hardware/software. This is similar to how for the Leaf/Spark EV/i3 DC charging cost $700-$750 as an option simply for the hardware/software.
Click to expand...

Very simple.

This is how I track my costs.... Its surprisingly accurate and extremely easy . I just multiply my used KWH used by my homes' KWH price average which is $.06 cents. For me a total of $1.06 per day.

�

Look at my post above. Do you know how long it will take me to get to $2500 in charging costs? I only have to supercharge for 18 min a day. If TESLA is going to have a cow over $1.06 a day and 18 min of charging.....then .....I don't know what to say.
�

Garlan Garner said: ?

Very simple.

This is how I track my costs.... Its surprisingly accurate and extremely easy . I just multiply my used KWH used by my homes' KWH price average which is $.06 cents. For me a total of $1.06 per day.
Click to expand...

This is the same "replacement for home charging" argument, which Tesla said their network was not intended for and also underestimates the true costs.

It seems the DC charging operator that services your area is EVgo and they charge $5 per session and $0.20 per minute for DC charging, so the same charge (which would take 20 minutes on a 50kW charger) would cost $9. If you get the monthly $15 option for $0.10 per minute, that brings price down to $2.5 ($2 + $0.50 daily), but still twice as much as your estimate. This gives a better estimate of how much true costs are for the given charging on a public network.

Garlan Garner said: ?

Look at my post above. Do you know how long it will take me to get to $2500 in charging costs? I only have to supercharge for 18 min a day. If TESLA is going to have a cow over $1.06 a day and 18 min of charging.....then .....I don't know what to say.
Click to expand...

That is only 6.5 years worth of electricity (not including onboard hardware/software costs and network installation/maintenance costs). Tesla has to amortize for at least 8 years of car life (and a car might be using the supercharger network longer than that). This is why Tesla had an issue with locals using superchargers as a replacement for home charging when they have other means.
�

stopcrazypp said: ?

This is the same "replacement for home charging" argument, which Tesla said their network was not intended for and also underestimates the true costs.

It seems the DC charging operator that services your area is EVgo and they charge $5 per session and $0.20 per minute for DC charging, so the same charge (which would take 20 minutes on a 50kW charger) would cost $9. If you get the monthly $15 option for $0.10 per minute, that brings price down to $2.5 ($2 + $0.50 daily), but still twice as much as your estimate. This gives a better estimate of how much true costs are for the given charging on a public network.

That is only 6.5 years worth of electricity (not including onboard hardware/software costs and network installation/maintenance costs). Tesla has to amortize for at least 8 years of car life (and a car might be using the supercharger network longer than that). This is why Tesla had an issue with locals using superchargers as a replacement for home charging when they have other means.
Click to expand...

You are forgetting.... I don't care. Call a sales agent for yourself. Obviously Elon M. has not decimated the correct information to them.

They can give me back my $2500 and I won't use their superchargers..... Its very easy.
�

Garlan Garner said: ?

Very simple.

This is how I track my costs.... Its surprisingly accurate and extremely easy . I just multiply my used KWH used by my homes' KWH price average which is $.06 cents. For me a total of $1.06 per day.
Click to expand...

Facinating--You're equating the value of the Supercharger option directly to the value of the electricity you'd get from using the Supercharger network.

What value do you put on having the nation-wide network available for your use besides the Warrenville SC?

What value do you place on the speed of recharging? What if the Superchargers only put out 50kW like other DC fast chargers?

I guess my point is that you're getting an economic utility from having access to the SC network independent of how much you actually use them, and independent how many dollars of electricity you use.
�

Zoomit said: ?

Facinating--You're equating the value of the Supercharger option directly to the value of the electricity you'd get from using the Supercharger network.

What value do you put on having the nation-wide network available for your use besides the Warrenville SC?

What value do you place on the speed of recharging? What if the Superchargers only put out 50kW like other DC fast chargers?

I guess my point is that you're getting an economic utility from having access to the SC network independent of how much you actually use them, and independent how many dollars of electricity you use.
Click to expand...

Maybe it is fascinating....lol.

I don't put any value on having a nation-wide network - Just like I don't put any value on free wifi across the nation at every Starbucks.

I don't care about the Starbuck in NY or MS or anywhere else.

I will stop using it when I reach $2500 in usage. That's going to be a long time from now.

They can easily give me my $2500 dollars back.

I suppose the main difference between myself and others in this thread is that you guys care about Tesla. Your choice. They are nothing more than a vendor to me. Just like Starbucks and McDonalds.
�

Garlan Garner said: ?

I will stop using it when I reach $2500 in usage. That's going to be a long time from now.
Click to expand...

How much of a premium are you willing to pay for your electicity delivered at ~100kW verses 6kW? I'm sure there are Level 2 chargers just as convenient as the Warrenville SC, but clearly time has value.
�

JeffK said: ?

Original supercharging fee was outrageous...
Sure there's a convenience and maintenance factor but the original $2000 at the typical electricity price in the midwest of $0.12/kW would have paid for nearly 16,667 kW of electricity. If 60kW lasted you a week then it would take over five years straight of charging solely at a supercharger to make up that expense at current energy prices assuming they received no discount for non-peak charging.
Click to expand...

People keep forgetting that the $2,000 fee for Supercharging covers two parts: $1,400 for the DC fast charging hardware already installed in the car, and $600 to support the network and pay for electricity. (The $1,400 enables CHAdeMO charging, then the extra $600 enables Supercharging.) Note: Tesla doesn't explicitly say that, but if you look at the cost to enable CHAdeMO and Supercharging it becomes pretty obvious.

And $600 worth of electricity is closer to ~12k miles if my memory is correct.

What we can hope is that the cost of the Supercharging hardware will come down significantly with the Model 3. But if they include, and enable, it with every car, enabling CHAdeMO and maybe CCS charging, then it should only cost ~$600 to enable Supercharging.
�

Please provide citation for $1400 hardware cost. Tesla may be charging a hardware and access charge that I've never seen broken out.
�

And back on topic, take a look at Top of the Mark

San Francisco Restaurant - Top of the Mark

Restaurants and Hotels will give you a free fill up if you'll grab a drink, dinner or stay the night. I would also suggest that having a drink or dinner at a hotel that could provide a full charge in 3-4 hours.

Garlan Garner said: ?

Maybe it is fascinating....lol.

I don't put any value on having a nation-wide network - Just like I don't put any value on free wifi across the nation at every Starbucks.

I don't care about the Starbuck in NY or MS or anywhere else.

I will stop using it when I reach $2500 in usage. That's going to be a long time from now.

They can easily give me my $2500 dollars back.

I suppose the main difference between myself and others in this thread is that you guys care about Tesla. Your choice. They are nothing more than a vendor to me. Just like Starbucks and McDonalds.
Click to expand...

1. You should put a value on a nationwide network. It's awesome to be able to drive anywhere, anytime.

2. Don't stop at $2500. Be an ambassador. Tell 10 friends to buy the car and help first timers that you see when you are charging. Or not.

3. Tesla may just be a "vendor" to you, but you don't have other fast charging alternatives. You have hundreds or thousands of choices for burgers and coffee. That will (eventually) change.

#DriveFree
�

MP3Mike said: ?

DC fast charging hardware already installed in the car,
Click to expand...

The car battery is DC so it's DC to DC... I can build that hardware for under $20. $50 if I attach a small computer to it.

What magic hardware are you talking about?
�

JeffK said: ?

The car battery is DC so it's DC to DC... I can build that hardware for under $20
Click to expand...

I suggest you build your own electric car immediately, it would clearly be of high quality and premium construction, the spare change in your pocket should be sufficient. We're here to help, let us know when it's done.
�

DC to DC is easy and doesn't require an inverter.
I've considered converting an old car once, but the costs of the motor and the battery I had found prohibitive.

There are a couple guys that do really nice work though converting cool cars to electric on Youtube.
�

Can we just rename this the bickering thread and be done with it?
�

Garlan Garner said: ?

What is the problem with that? I pay $2500 for supercharging and I use $2500 worth of super charging.
Click to expand...

I agree with you that you should be able to charge whenever you want, but something to consider is that by paying for supercharging, you're subsidizing the creation of newer superchargers down the line and also maintenance of existing superchargers, which not only lets you continue your local supercharging, but gives you more options when traveling.

You shouldn't expect to get $2500 of electricity. You should expect to get some portion of that in electricity, and the rest going toward maintenance, new locations, and research for new charging technology. All of those benefit you and you shouldn't expect to get that for free.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say you're getting a darn good deal for that price. Tech is expensive and a one-time fee is nice.
�

callmesam said: ?

3. Tesla may just be a "vendor" to you, but you don't have other fast charging alternatives. You have hundreds or thousands of choices for burgers and coffee. That will (eventually) change.

#DriveFree
Click to expand...

What? There are thousands of alternatives. This time next year....there will be more charging alternatives than burger joints.

Plugshare provides thousands of electric charging options. Download the app for your phone. PlugShare
�

eisbock said: ?

I agree with you that you should be able to charge whenever you want, but something to consider is that by paying for supercharging, you're subsidizing the creation of newer superchargers down the line and also maintenance of existing superchargers, which not only lets you continue your local supercharging, but gives you more options when traveling.

You shouldn't expect to get $2500 of electricity. You should expect to get some portion of that in electricity, and the rest going toward maintenance, new locations, and research for new charging technology. All of those benefit you and you shouldn't expect to get that for free.
Click to expand...

"I WILL" get my $2500 worth. If Tesla wants donations....they should ask.
�

callmesam said: ?

Please provide citation for $1400 hardware cost. Tesla may be charging a hardware and access charge that I've never seen broken out.
Click to expand...

On this page, make sure you pick Fast Charging Onboard Hardware Activation since that is necessary to use CHAdeMO charging, and that costs $1,900. (This is included in the $2,500 Supercharging fee.)

On this page adding Supercharging to a Model S 60 costs $2,500; this also enables CHAdeMO charging. (That is a $500 change fee more than at the time the car was purchased.)

I made two assumptions:

The Fast Charging Onboard Hardware Activation fee, $1,900, has a $500 change fee built in just like the Supercharing and Autopilot when not purchased at the time you get your car. Which makes the hardware activation actually cost $1,400.

The difference between the onboard hardware activation and Supercharging activation is $600 and that is what goes towards supporting the Supercharging network and your electricity.

And remember Supercharging cost $2,000 when the car was ordered, $2,000 - $600 = $1,400. So Tesla's prices are consistent both when the car is ordered and for after the fact additions.
�

JeffK said: ?

The car battery is DC so it's DC to DC... I can build that hardware for under $20. $50 if I attach a small computer to it.

What magic hardware are you talking about?
Click to expand...

I think most of it is in the HV junction box. I assume that since Tesla charges $1,400 for it it costs a little more than $20. (How much does each contactor that controls the flow of power cost? I think you would need at least 4 of them for starters along with lots of hardware to provide safety checks, etc. And they probably bundle the software costs in with that.)
�

Garlan Garner said: ?

"I WILL" get my $2500 worth. If Tesla wants donations....they should ask.
Click to expand...

Go for it! The only thing... I fear you may end up buying another Tesla before getting your $2500 worth, which means you will need to stack another $2500 on top of that, then when the time comes to buy another Tesla, add another $2500 on there...

You may be digging yourself deeper in the electricity hole and inadvertently funding the things I outlined above!
�

We're talking about a million cars on the road by the end of 2018 at the earliest. Tesla can keep up with

Garlan Garner said: ?

What? There are thousands of alternatives. This time next year....there will be more charging alternatives than burger joints.

Plugshare provides thousands of electric charging options. Download the app for your phone. PlugShare
Click to expand...

oh really? Please share with me all the empty to full in an hour chargers offered by Plugshare.

Or even the fastest charger in Chicago.

We'll wait.
�

callmesam said: ?

We're talking about a million cars on the road by the end of 2018 at the earliest. Tesla can keep up with

oh really? Please share with me all the empty to full in an hour chargers offered by Plugshare.

Or even the fastest charger in Chicago.

We'll wait.
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What are you talking about? You said there aren't any alternatives. Plugshare shows that there are. Period. I don't use PlugShare....I paid for Supercharging. I'm going to use it.

I don't use PlugShare - I use Superchargers. I have data on SuperChargers as far as how fast they charge my car and how much it would cost at my house KWH charge.
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eisbock said: ?

Go for it! The only thing... I fear you may end up buying another Tesla before getting your $2500 worth, which means you will need to stack another $2500 on top of that, then when the time comes to buy another Tesla, add another $2500 on there...

You may be digging yourself deeper in the electricity hole and inadvertently funding the things I outlined above!
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You may be right. Sounds logical. However I'm going to keep Supercharging till I get my M3.
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MP3Mike said: ?

I think most of it is in the HV junction box. I assume that since Tesla charges $1,400 for it it costs a little more than $20. (How much does each contactor that controls the flow of power cost? I think you would need at least 4 of them for starters along with lots of hardware to provide safety checks, etc. And they probably bundle the software costs in with that.)
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I'm sure the contactors required for this application are not cheap. You'd be spending a few hundred on each I'd imagine, although I'm sure Tesla gets a mean bulk discount.
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Garlan Garner said: ?

You may be right. Sounds logical. However I'm going to keep Supercharging till I get my M3.
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I'm going to do the same once I get my 3. However, I'm going to keep an eye out for Teslas with out-of-state plates when all the stalls are full so I can give up my spot for them. I still believe long distance travel trumps local charging because those people have no other choice. Not tryna be a dick here.
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eisbock said: ?

I'm going to do the same once I get my 3. However, I'm going to keep an eye out for Teslas with out-of-state plates when all the stalls are full so I can give up my spot for them. I still believe long distance travel trumps local charging because those people have no other choice. Not tryna be a dick here.
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Absolutely. I have been and will continue to do the same. If there is someone that shows up with out of state plates...I will disconnect and let them use it.

I charge at a place where there is only 1 charging station unit. It's a long way from any expressway and I have never seen an out of state plate show up when I was there....however ethically I will gladly give up my spot and come back later.
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teslamotorclub

Thứ Năm, 5 tháng 1, 2017

Solution to charge your Model 3 if you don't have any garage? part 1

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