Dec 29, 2014
sfisher Got wrong seats -- "New" old-gen seats uncomfortable.
I just picked up my P85D today and was all excited to sit in the Next Gen Seats, since the seats were one of my least favorite parts of my S85 (which I otherwise loved). But boy, after driving around today my back is really sore -- because he headrest of the driver's seat protrudes so far forward I just could not get comfortable. Any suggestions????�
Dec 29, 2014
Blurry_Eyed I don't have the next gen seats, but from what you describe try tilting the seat back a bit and then have the lumbar support pushed out to try to get the seat back to be a bit flatter and get the headrest to be more parallel with your back. Not sure if it will work, but give it a try.�
Dec 29, 2014
sfisher Actually, I was so surprised at how uncomfortable they were that I went online to take a look at the seats in the Model S design studio and guess what -- they aren't the next gen seats at all! Even though the delivery specialist today assured me I was one of the lucky ones whose car did ship with the next gen seats! Boy, I'm sure glad I checked, but it seems pretty bad that Tesla delivered the car without telling me that they had given me the wrong seats...�
Dec 29, 2014
sfisher I picked up my new P85D today and was told by the delivery specialist that I was one of the lucky ones whose car was built with the next gen seats I had ordered. And so I didn't really pay attention to the seats, especially since I didn't remember what the next gen seats looked like. But after driving the car all day I found the seats so uncomfortable that I couldn't believe they were the next gen seats, and so I went and looked on the Model S Design Studio and lo and behold they aren't the next gen seats!!
It's bad enough to deliver a car with the wrong seats, but then to explicitly tell me I had received the correct seats when I hadn't -- well, that seems pretty bad. I'm just lucky I checked or who knows if I ever would have figured it out!�
Dec 29, 2014
Andyw2100 Mods--Could we please get a thread subject change here. The current subject certainly got my attention, and is sure to get the attention of lots of P85D owners waiting for their Next Gen seats. But it really couldn't be more inaccurate, since the OP figured out he wasn't actually evaluating Next Gen seats. Thanks!
Edit: Thanks, Mods!�
Dec 29, 2014
spentan wot,
make sure your due bill has the next gen seats written on it (to be installed at later date).
Also, post pics, we can tell you within seconds whether they are or not.�
Dec 29, 2014
sfisher The due bill did not have the next gen seats written on it -- in fact, I was told explicitly that the car was delivered with the next gen seats. Here are some photos:
�
Dec 29, 2014
spentan definitely not next gen seats.�
Dec 30, 2014
darthy001 Thats the "new" old seats. So the DS is most likely not up to date.�
Dec 30, 2014
muleferg New Front seat.
New old back It has the bench seat. P85D demo at Raleigh, NC I like the old back seats better.Less vision in mirror. My 85S has a lot less noise.
�
Dec 30, 2014
onasj Same thing happened to me, only even more odd. DS told me that rears of my new P85D were Next Gen, fronts were performance. I said "uhhh.... really? Because that would be pretty much a first based on all the data I've gathered from the Tesla forums and spreadsheet." He said "let me double check with the techs" and then he confirmed rears were NG, fronts were Performance.
When I actually took delivery, during the walkthrough the tech told me look, they are both Next Gen! Of course, I took a look and informed him no, NEITHER front nor back were next gen-- they were both performance! Eventually I pulled out photos of the next gen seats from this forum to prove my point.
This is disturbing on many levels, not the least of which is that the people working at Tesla on delivering new $140,000 cars should be able to tell a customer (and correctly note in the due bill) whether or not a major component is what the customer ordered.
I realize the Tesla folks are working like crazy to get as many P85Ds delivered by the end of CY 2014, and my DS was heroic in answering my questions late at night, but their lack of complete knowledge about these cars (with other examples beyond the seats) was unsettling.�
Dec 30, 2014
RAW84 Disturbing indeed, I'm scheduled to pick up my car today in Watertown. Looks like I'm going to have to get some next gen seat pics cued up on my phone.
Communication has been abysmal for me. My DS hasn't mentioned the seats, we'll see what I get when I show up.
They've bundled this launch amazingly.�
Dec 30, 2014
sfisher My story gets even weirder. After I called Tesla to tell them that I had the wrong seats they looked up my due bill and told me that it said my next gen seats were still on order. I then pointed out to them that in fact it did not say that when I signed it, and that the docs specialist even told me that my car was delivered with the next gen seats. After some back and forth it turns out that they altered my due bill after I had signed it! And then they never even told me they had done so -- I still had to call in to tell them that I had the wrong seats. It really doesn't seem right that they are altering documents I had signed...�
Dec 30, 2014
Krugerrand Escalate that up the ladder. The person who did that needs to be told it's not acceptable and/or fired, or the person who told them to do it. Not an acceptable business practice anywhere. In the end Tesla will make it right for you and you'll get the new seats, so don't worry about that.�
Dec 31, 2014
ArtInCT sfisher:
Maybe the seats in your car are "Shape Shifter" seats... The first time you look at them... they appear to be Next Gen and then
the Shape Shifter gets tired or bored and they become Performance seats....
That is the only plausible explanation as the Shape Shifter seats.. well they fooled the Delivery Specialist and more importantly... YOU. :love:�
Dec 31, 2014
Eclectic Add me to the list of those who received a P85D without the Nextgen seats after being told that they were installed. Not happy about it, and I told the DS that I would have been happy to wait until they were ready. As it is, I paid the full purchase price for a car that isn't what I ordered. Why? I guess some people would have been happy to just have the car, even if it wasn't complete. I suspect more of it has to do with getting as many 2014 orders filled as possible, without regard to the consequences.
Needless to say, I've send a note to my DS with a demand for an explanation and compensation. I know it's not a big deal, but this is basically Tesla cooking the books for 2014, and I am not amused. Maybe it helps their stock price, but there will be ramifications.�
Dec 31, 2014
Footbag My car was delivered yesterday. The paperwork I received had nothing on the Due Bill, so I hoped this was a sign I would get next gen seats. Nope. I contacted my DS, and he confirmed I don't have them and that they will be installed by a Ranger in the future (no date given). He also provided me a new Due Bill dated today indicating the Next Gen seats. He says it was missed being noted on the prior Due Bill.
Prior to contacting him, I looked at the monroney sticker that came with the car (to make sure I indeed ordered NG seats). I was horrified when I didn't see them on there. I scanned once, twice, three times, not there, nothing that said Next Gen Seats. I then checked some online paperwork, and it did have the seats. I looked over the Sticker again... well Tesla wrote it in french only (everything else had english and french), thus why I wasn't seeing it.�
Dec 31, 2014
bxr140 That's fair.
That's an outright accusation of conscious, nefarious, and illegal activity.�
Dec 31, 2014
Eclectic Correct.�
Dec 31, 2014
Todd Burch I think there's some confusion on lingo. There's the newly modified version of the older seats (bigger headrest) and the recaro seats. They're probably referring to one when they mean the other.�
Dec 31, 2014
Krugerrand And out of line. People make mistakes you know. That you've assumed it was done on purpose to 'cook the books' says more about you than the person who made the mistake. A number of customers have been given the option to keep the seats their cars were delivered with and be refunded the difference, or to wait for the new seats to arrive from the supplier and then have them installed (some time in 15Q1). A simple (and polite) phone call to the DS to let him/her know that in fact you don't have the new seats in your vehicle and that you'd like a refund of the difference in cost is all that is necessary. Not all the rest.�
Dec 31, 2014
sundoc From what I've understood there are actually 3 versions of seats:
1) The original set up (be it performance or the base)
2) An upgraded setup, larger head rests in the back and some refinements to the fronts. I think they are called Futuris?
3) The next gen with all the bolstering we see in the front and back.
So for some people I suspect there is some miscommunication going on due to nomenclature eg. They may in fact be getting upgraded seats (number 2 from above) but not the final next gen seats at delivery.
Just a thought... I for one am not sure what I'm getting! Car is supposed to arrive tomorrow though...�
Dec 31, 2014
Eclectic And I disagree. When I got the email to come pick up the car, I was told it was completed, inspected and ready. There was no "hey, we don't have the seats you ordered and paid for, so if you want to wait for the car until the seats come in we'll hold it for you and you don't have to pay until it's actually ready". Instead, I was told to come in to pick up the completed car and was even told that the seats were the ones I had ordered. That wasn't a mistake. It's happening to everyone, apparently. The factory knew that they didn't have all the components needed to deliver a complete car, yet they did it anyway, to a lot of people.
I'm not blaming the DS, by the way. I'm blaming Tesla, the corporation, for playing these games to get final 2014 sales numbers artificially high. They got full payment for the car before 12/31/14 and count it as a delivery. It's not right. And it is being done intentionally.
I would have been more than happy to wait a few weeks or more for the complete car. It's bad business to knowingly fail to deliver the product as ordered.�
Dec 31, 2014
spentan As much as everyone is whinging about this,
I picked up my P85D today, it has the Tan Next Gen in front and new nappa in rear.
I'm happy to have my P85D delivered today, (kinda incomplete), compared to waiting another day.�
Dec 31, 2014
sataponw I understand why people would be complaining. However, to me, I actually wouldn't mind much if I have the old seats for now. I see it as a free seat and a delay in the wear/tear of the my seats. I will use this opportunity to try as many cloths/belt I have to see which one will stain my seat (I got the tan) that I will eventually get in the future.�
Dec 31, 2014
NOLA_Mike To clarify, it's not "happening to everyone". I was contacted by my DS well in advance of my actual delivery wherein she informed me that my car would be initially delivered without the Next Generation Seats and would have the Nappa seats instead. She then clearly stated that I had the option to keep the Nappa seats and take a credit for the difference in price or I could elect to have the Next Generation seats installed at a later date when they became available.�
Dec 31, 2014
Eclectic Then it happened to you too, though they had the courtesy to give you a warning before you picked up the car. What I haven't heard is that people were given the option of not accepting the car until it was completed as ordered. I do have a problem with not having what I paid for, even if I will get it later. They got the money for the next gen seats, they should have either delivered them when the car was delivered or waited for payment until the car was complete. I would have been more than happy to have waited and held on to my money.�
Dec 31, 2014
NOLA_Mike You had the option to refuse delivery (and held on to your money) and reorder later.�
Dec 31, 2014
Eclectic Did I? When I was told that the car was complete and only found out after I had accepted delivery that the car wasn't complete? The DS didn't give me that option when I wrote to complain. All I got was an option to keep the seats and get a credit or wait for the right ones.�
Dec 31, 2014
sfisher I do not understand why this has happened, but I do think it is pretty bad for Tesla to tell me that the car is complete, and specifically that it will be delivered with the next gen seats, and then the paperwork is finalized with nothing on the due bill, and it's not until I get home that I realize that it was delivered with the wrong seats. Now I understand that I probably should have noticed this once I actually got the car (after the paperwork was signed), but still... is there really a good excuse for Tesla not telling me this before I show up, and especially before I pay for the car, and then giving me the option of waiting? Or -- at least tell me what happened before I signed the paperwork while at the factory? And while not happening to everyone, it does seem that this mistake is happening to more than just me.
If I had been given the option of waiting I would have taken that option. But once I had already paid for the car, picked it up, taken it home, and sold my old car (a 2012 Tesla S85), it was a little late to take the P85D back.�
Dec 31, 2014
EarlyAdopter You still do have the option to return the car. Tesla has a "happiness guarantee." If you are unhappy with the car, give it back.
From The House Always Wins | Blog | Tesla Motors
I haven't heard of anyone actually doing this yet, but it's an option. If you or anyone else pursues it, let us know how it works out.
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Same here. You still do have the option of waiting. Give the car back, order a new one. Or just wait for the seats to show up while enjoying the rest of the car as is.�
Dec 31, 2014
aznt1217 I think the term Next-Gen is mixing people a lot. Next-Gen can mean the second generation seats of the original. Tesla really needs to rename the new Recaro made seats Sport Seats or Performance seats. Too many people are getting confused (even their own DS) in this case. Honestly, you'll get the seats and it'll be retro fitted. Not sure why you would've taken the option for waiting especially because the P85D goes like stink. Tesla should've told you like others on the forum-- I guess the experience is varying by DS/SC.
�
Dec 31, 2014
GetAmped I received Version 2 and had to get the DS to hand write on my Delivery paperwork that I was missing the Next Gen seats which will be installed when available ( told a couple of months).�
Jan 1, 2015
maddog1762 I had to contact my DS after my Model S was in production for 24 days. I read here and than called. I am not happy about Tesla's lack of communication. I cancelled and reordered. Just my opinion but for the price of this vehicle I do nit want the seats swapped several times. Good luck to all! Happy new year�
Jan 1, 2015
golfski
How is it out of line? It's no secret that Tesla does what ever they can and "rush" as many orders in before the end of the quarter and even the year. You don't think its a consideration by Tesla to try to figure out how to still deliver these thousands of cars even though they don't have all the parts that people paid for, rather than delay the deliveries and thus miss their EOY targets? The level of tolerance fan boys have for Tesla is appalling, blaming the seat supplier and saying its out of Tesla's control is non-sense. Tesla is the car-maker, whoever or wherever they source their parts from is their problem - not the consumers. Too many people are concerned with the "bad news" that they believe will affect the stock price, etc. This type of overlooking by fan-boys allows Tesla to keep making these mistakes because they don't feel the pinch. Had the new seats not been coupled with the "D", most specifically the P85D, I doubt we would see so much acceptance of taking delivery of the car with the old seats. Those ordering the P85D so quickly seem more concerned with the performance or AWD aspect so its easy to overlook just the seats missing - but that doesn't mean its acceptable practice by a company.�
Jan 1, 2015
Eclectic I couldn't have said it better. In the last 12 months I've spent a quarter million dollars on this company's products. At a minimum, I should get what I ordered. I shouldn't be told (by the fanboys) that I have to be happy with whatever they give me. The long term viability of this company depends on it being honest and delivering a great product that exceeds expectations.
Yes, the technology is incredible. Yes, the incomplete car is still amazing. But you know what? I'm going to think long and hard before I purchase another vehicle from this company for as long as I hear that they play these games. My satisfaction should come before hitting FY2014 numbers, and that's not what is happening. Plus, the car is simply not the car I paid for. It's misleading and they're sitting on my money while I have first been lied to then I get some vague promise that I'll get what I paid for "soon".
I'm looking to replace my F150 and if Ford were to deliver a new truck with steel, rather than aluminum, panels and then say "come back in a few months and we'll put the right panels on" I doubt anyone would be quiet about it, even if the truck drove fine without the new panels.
For those who want to put Tesla above their own interests, I suppose what they've delivered is enough. For me, it's a serious problem and a significant disappointment. I don't thank the deities that I have the privilege to buy a Tesla. They have to earn my business, and unless they intend to be a niche player forever, they will have to earn the business of mainstream car buyers.�
Jan 1, 2015
NigelM Mod note: one post went to snippiness�
Jan 1, 2015
golfski You made my point for me, its out of your capabilities to see Tesla do any wrong, so you have nothing you can say that will resonate with any non "fan-boy".
But I would still love to hear your explanation about why a supplier that Tesla engaged, went into contract with, marketed 'their' product as its own NextGen seats and took money from customers for, is still not Tesla's fault?
While Tesla may be a start-up to the automative world based on numbers, delivering 35,000 cars at an average of 100k each (my own guess) equates to $3.5 billion in sales and is not something they should take lightly. They need to take their S@*$@ more seriously and not fall-back on this "startup" and "constant evolution" argument when they mess up.
Just look at the range debacle - they marketed the 'D' cars as more efficient - NOT "more efficient at some un-known date after you took delivery and they feel its ready". I do like that our cars can get better over time - but it should NOT be a crutch they can use to market, sell and deliver an un-fininshed product because they have the technical ability to finish it at a later date.�
Jan 1, 2015
EarlyAdopter golfski, eclectric,
I hear you. What we know is Tesla was all setup to deliver the cars with the new sports seats as planned but then found a last minute problem with them and had to pull all the seats. That's on them and no doubt some heads need to roll, but the question is what would you have them do then? Hold all the cars for weeks, months even more until they have enough of the fixed seats in inventory to put all the cars out with them and make everyone wait?
I think they made the only sane choice given the circumstances, which is make some people wait for the seats and make no one wait for the car.
If that was important to you then you had the option to reorder and wait. You _still_ have the option to do that. Give the car back, reorder, and wait.
There is no magical third option where someone takes a time machine back and catches the seat design error two months ago and avoids the disaster. Likewise, Tesla has got to be getting the fixed seats in as fast as they can from their supplier. Remember, this is the same company that air freighted tires from Europe in December 2012 when Continental screwed up Tesla's order.
If you have any productive solutions to offer or specifics on how Tesla could have done better here other than "never had made the design mistake to begin with" I'm all ears. If I'm reading your statements correctly - that you'd rather have had Tesla made you wait for your car until the revised seats were in - then what's stopping you from doing that now?
Again, I'm seriously interested in seeing what happens when someone takes Tesla up on their happiness guarantee. Why aren't you?�
Jan 1, 2015
Eclectic There was a third option. They could have told us BEFORE we went to pick up the car that it wasn't the car we ordered and if we wanted it with the wrong seats, we could take it and they'd make us whole later. Then, we could have made a decision before we got rid of our old P85, before we signed paperwork, before we got the funds wired to Tesla...and you know what? We would have said "keep the car until it's complete, we're more than happy to keep driving our old P85."
This is the problem. The happiness guarantee is pretty worthless after you've already sold the old car, paid for the new one and accepted delivery of it. They should have been honest about what they were going to deliver. Like you said, there is no time machine and a happiness guarantee isn't going to put us in the position we should have been in had Tesla been forthright about what they were doing.
*Edit:
I looked up the terms of the happiness guarantee and it seems to only apply to leases. I didn't lease. And the terms of the guarantee are somewhat opaque. It says that the remaining lease obligations are waived...it doesn't say that you are refunded all of the payments you made. So you could easily be out of pocket quite a bit of money for origination expenses, down payments, etc. I'm not sure how this all works, but since I didn't lease, it clearly isn't an option in any event.�
Jan 1, 2015
golfski Don't get me wrong, if I had a P85D on order and fell into that group of having to take old seats while still getting the car delivered in '14 (tax credit, wanting to drive it ASAP!) I would have definitely taken delivery. I just don't think we should be making excuses for the company and need to be calling them out on this stuff. The seat thing is certainly understandable - but to some its not acceptable and they have the option as you described to return it or refuse delivery. From a stock-holder standpoint though, think of all the money wasted (parts & labor) by having to deliver seats that will be trashed in a few months. To me the only real option is to refund all the money for NG seats and deliver with old seats. Then when the seats are ready - allow to upgrade to the NG seats at the same price it would have been offered new - and at that time pay for the seats. As it stands, they are booking revenue for 2014 for products they didn't actually deliver.
I have more of a problem with the range debacle and I think it highlights how the company is deceiving consumers (or not revealing all the information) for their own benefit. At the time before the "D" announcement there was already talk of Tesla missing their 2014 numbers by 3,000 units. When the "D" was announced, it was all about how it will be the most efficient variant - there were no qualifications on timing, etc. To me that smells of a company that knew it would be delivering a less-supperior car than promised by EOY 2014 but still wanted the surge of sales that the "D" would deliver to them (performance, AWD, X crowd) in 2014. I think they took advantage of an eager crowd who wanted the performance, AWD, new seats - and also only promising to deliver the most expensive variant of those new things in 2014, which no doubt made the impatient buyers "upgrade" to a P85D instead of an 85D. Given that range is one of the most important aspects about buying an electric car and the constant arguments over why everyone should skip the 60 and go to the 85 because it has the max range - do you think that the P85D would have been as widely accepted if buyers knew before they put deposits down and sold existing cars that the rated range would be between the 60 and 85, though $50,000 more than a 60?
So my suggestion to Tesla is to announce and deliver a product when its ready and meets the promises that they marketed it under. That seems pretty simple. Bugs in software or hardware is one thing - marketing something knowing you won't deliver it but still charging people for it is where I have a problem.�
Jan 1, 2015
Canuck To suggest that "fan boys" share the blame by overlooking Tesla's mistakes is really stretching it to me. I think it's best to stick to the issue and not name call, or otherwise attack the people on this forum just because they may have a different opinion than you. I'm one of those "fan boys" but at the same time it's clear to me that you have a legitimate concern regarding your seats.�
Jan 1, 2015
Xenoilphobe I can imagine the other post if you hadn't received your car in 2014. "Tesla screwed me out of my $7500 federal tax rebate"..
Not sure why this made the forums - Tesla has bent over backwards for every request I have ever made - sounds like communication with Tesla was an issue - not the DS or making numbers - they are trying to hit a delivery date for the customer. I think you give way to much credence to the stock - this company is in this for the long play - hence the investment in the GigaFactory.
Enjoy your new car - you are driving one of the best values in the market and Tesla will do the right thing. It is rare to have the CEO browsing the forums - I wouldn't be surprised if you got a call from him or his staff to nail this down.
I see other agendas with this post - my experience at 28,000+ miles and one year have been completely amazing! So much so that we are buying another Model S.�
Jan 1, 2015
Super Snake Please forgive my ignorance in advance as I am new. How do I know if I ordered next gen seats? I don't see anything specific in the design studio that says next generation seats. I ordered the upgraded interior with the leather seats for $1500. Are those next gen seats?
Thanks�
Jan 1, 2015
stevezzzz I requested precisely this^^^ when the NG seat shortage first came to light. It seemed like a fair workaround to me--pay for what I would be getting and upgrade later without incurring a penalty--but was told that it was not possible to do it that way. Whether it's a quirk of TM's ordering and mfg inventory software, or a corporate policy that favors Tesla, I don't have a clue. Besides, no one could actually tell me one way or the other whether my car would have NG seats, as ordered. On balance, I believe it's disarray rather than deceit.
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Next generation seats are a third option only available (at the moment) to those configuring a P85D; in the design studio it's the upper line of buttons to the right of the larger Textile seats option button. Next Gen seats are priced at $3500 over the standard textile seats.�
Jan 1, 2015
golfski Please don't confuse me with someone that actually has a P85D issue, I have an S60 that is one of the cheapest models you can buy, and I have loved every mile of it - so much that I can't wait until I can buy an X, even with the list of issues I have had (master charger failure, creaks, seat rocking, panel mis-alignment, sun-roof replaced, frunk not closing). I can live with those type of quality issues because as a manufacturer they are pretty new and building it from the ground up. I don't think that argument applies to how they do business - there is nothing really ground break about their business operations model (I'm not talking about their direct sales model) and how they set consumer expectations, which is why I have less tolerance there.
I am blaming the fanboy (based on definition here Urban Dictionary: fanboy) because, in my opinion, they are overlooking Tesla's mistakes because they are so into what they are producing, for whatever reason (electric, technology, sustainable energy, super-car, etc..) and I think that is going to hurt the company in the long-term. As an investor and a consumer of their products (with a warranty that is loosely tied to the long-term success of the company) I think they should be learning from their mistakes now while the audience is limited. If Tesla treats their mass-market customers this way I don't think they will be delivering 500,000 units a year like they are planning. I have been following Tesla in the more recent years and these forums and it doesn't seem like they are learning from their mistakes and seem to be making more of them in the recent months and actually getting worse at setting consumer expectations.
Again, Tesla has proven they will make it right on an individual basis if asked, but they need to work harder on getting it right up-front so that burden is not on the consumer to get them to make it right. At a point when they have only delivered 60,000 cars or so - you can get ahold of Jerome and other top officials - @ 500,000 units/year thats not sustainable and they need to be getting this stuff right out of the gate.�
Jan 1, 2015
zzzzdoc +1. What had upset me about it, was that I had spoken to my DS about this a few days before, when I was making payment. He changed the final delivery paperwork to indicate that they needed to install the seats in the future. But when I arrived at the SC, that notation was nowhere to be found. I was told, no problem, just sign the paperwork stating that I had received the car with the Next Gen seats, and they had delivered everything. I refused, and then it was hand written on my contract. Seriously poor business practices. I had no problem with the concept of getting the correct seats in a few months. But trying to have me sign paperwork that they didn't have to replace them was inexcusable.
In the end, all was well (assuming that some day I'll get the seats I paid for), but they clearly grabbed defeat from the jaws of victory.�
Jan 1, 2015
Andyw2100 Some of the first people posting here that were being told of the issues with the seats were actually being given three options. Their options were the two every one else has been being offered:
1) Take delivery with the older seats; get the Next Gen seats swapped in when available
2) Take delivery with the older seats; keep them and get credited back for the difference
The third option was to delay delivery until the Next Gen seats were available. At the time this was not going to be refusing delivery and re-ordering, but rather just delaying delivery. I did some searching and couldn't find any posts that talked about this, but I definitely remember a couple of people posting that this is what was offered to them.
I'm guessing Tesla realized at some point that perhaps that third option wasn't really something that they could offer to all the P85D buyers whose seats weren't going to be ready when their cars would be, both because they didn't have room to store the cars, and because they needed to deliver the cars, or at least as many cars as possible, in 2014. So Tesla stopped offering that third option.
It sounds like there are definitely some people who might have chosen that option had it been offered. If there were any possible way for Tesla to have done it, they really should have kept offering all three options. Of course in the big picture of the mistakes made with the P85D launch, that would count as one of the smaller ones.
As many others have said before me, let's hope Tesla learns from these mistakes.�
Jan 2, 2015
Krugerrand There's zero indication (or proof) that Tesla did such a thing.
- - - Updated - - -
No, seriously poor decision on the part of the ONE Tesla employee you were dealing with.�
Jan 2, 2015
NigelM An employee trained and managed by Tesla; a company has to take responsibility sometimes.
(And we don't need to beat down every single complaint.)�
Jan 2, 2015
EarlyAdopter Nine posts back I quoted where they expanded the happiness guarantee to cover buyers, too.
P85D with wrong seats, but had to figure it out for myself - Page 4�
Jan 2, 2015
Eclectic I'm sorry, but a blog post doesn't change the terms of a purchase agreement. Nowhere in my purchase agreement/terms and conditions is there mention of a right to return the vehicle if I'm not happy. In fact, there is a provision that says I'm in breach of the agreement if I refuse to accept delivery within 7 days of being informed that the vehicle is ready.
Do you have a more authoritative source for the claim that the happiness guarantee covers purchases as well as leases? I know this...if I were to sue Tesla over the happiness guarantee and walked into court with a printout of a blog post, the judge would look at the actual contract, see no guarantee, and Tesla would say that the blog post had a typo, and it meant only leases.�
Jan 3, 2015
EarlyAdopter A quote from a company's CEO on their official blog seems pretty solid to me.
Where did suing Tesla come in to play? Have you simply asked them about it? Let them know you were unhappy, want to return the car and order a new one? Seems like the simplest route to fixing things. Ask for a loaner or if you can keep the current car until the replacement arrives. Let us know what they say!�
Jan 3, 2015
Krugerrand I didn't say a company doesn't have to take responsibility. What exactly is a company? A company is a group of 'people'. Therefore, for a 'company' to take responsibility for its actions requires each person, that makes up that company, to be responsible for their own actions on behalf of themselves AND everyone else in that group. Going out on a limb here, but I'm pretty sure that the majority of people who make up Tesla do not approve of such actions as changing paperwork after signing, therefore blaming the company would be at the very least quite inaccurate.
I have no intention of beating down every single complaint, simply going for some accuracy in this case. I understand it's easier to remain upset and angry if one has embellished the story to bolster one's position. Saying that Tesla never had any intention of delivering the P85Ds with Next Gen Seats is a complete fabrication since we know that several of the first P85Ds off the line had those seats installed, and were held at the factory because of the safety rating of said seats (and why there was a black hole thread in the first place). Saying that Tesla never had any intention of delivering the P85Ds with Normal mode is at best a guess, since no information exists to support it.�
Jan 3, 2015
4SUPER9 I just perused this thread and I am a bit confused.
Is everyone upset because some people got the wrong seats, Tesla admitted their mistake, and they are making it right?�
Jan 3, 2015
Andyw2100 Some people aren't upset at all. (I'm not upset.) Some people are upset that they were not informed before going to pick up their cars that they did not have the Next Generation seats they had ordered. Others may be upset for different reasons.�
Jan 3, 2015
4SUPER9 OK then, so I got it right. Tesla made a mistake and are fixing it. For those that are still angry, my recommendation is to let it go. Life is short. It would be one thing if they fought you on this, but they didn't. They did good by you, and did so immediately. Enjoy the awesome customer service they are giving you.
I'll unsubscribe from this thread now.�
Jan 3, 2015
Eclectic Perhaps you missed the part where I noted that none of the purchase documents said anything about a happiness guarantee. You can add a contract term by making a vague comment on a blog, even if it's from the CEO.
What are the terms and conditions of the guarantee? From what I've seen on the lease guarantee, you lose any payments you've already made. That's significant. But more important, the guarantee doesn't exist for people who didn't lease.
And like I said, I already sold my old car and sent my money to Tesla, which they accepted. So the clock can't be turned back. I've complained to my DS and I received a response that the seats will be installed when they're ready. That's the extent of what Tesla is willing to do. It's unacceptable.
- - - Updated - - -
I can only speak for myself. I am upset because I paid for something that was not delivered. Tesla has my money, I don't have what I paid for. Are they making it right? Not to my mind. They should have deducted the cost of the seats at delivery and then I'd have paid for them when they were installed at a later date. That is not something Tesla is offering. Some people don't care. I do.�
Jan 3, 2015
EarlyAdopter No one here can answer that question. Only Tesla can. They've put that statement out there, but to my knowledge no one has called them on it. You're unhappy, justifyably so. Call them, escalate above your DS. I think you might be surprised at the level Tesla will go to make their customers happy. We can only know if you try.�
Jan 3, 2015
EarlyAdopter Perhaps that's because it's a purchase agreement, not a post-purchase agreement.
I cannot help you to help yourself. The offer from Tesla is out there. It's on you to take them up on it.�
Jan 3, 2015
Eclectic I'm not asking you to help me. I know that the happiness guarantee doesn't exist for non-lessees. You are the one who continues to insist it does, so I'm asking you to show me the guarantee. Like I said, a blog post is not legally binding. A written, signed purchase agreement is. No guarantee in that document. Thus, it doesn't exist.�
Jan 3, 2015
cynix It wouldn't hurt to ask Tesla if they'll honour it anyway, would it?�
Jan 3, 2015
Eclectic The problem is...honor what??? I have yet to see the terms and conditions of this happiness guarantee. From my research and available information, here's what I know. (1) It's only available to lessees. (2) you don't get a refund of money you've already paid. (3) you only are relieved of the obligation to continue making future lease payments.
I paid for the car 100% with cash. So if I don't get a refund, then I'd be handing back a car and getting nothing in return. You can obviously see the problem with that deal.
Anyone who has looked into the happiness guarantee can understand that it simply ends future payment obligations. You don't get a refund. Those who are engaging in magical thinking and asserting that the happiness guarantee exists for purchases clearly don't understand what the happiness guarantee is.�
Jan 3, 2015
cynix Just ask them if you can return the car for a refund. Please let us know the result, I'm curious.�
Jan 3, 2015
Eclectic "No."
That's the answer.�
Jan 3, 2015
Jgdixon Will you guys cut it out?
Go enjoy your car and stop whining. You will get the new seats if you wish just like the rest of us.
Please let this thread die and let's move on!�
Jan 3, 2015
ra-san Is that the answer they gave you when you asked, or is that the answer you think they will give you based on what you have said?
You feel wronged. You said what you would have expected at/before delivery. They didn't do that. Now what? What actually makes it right for you? What are you looking for *now* (vs. being able to alter the past)?
Just curious how you would like to see this resolved at this point.�
Jan 3, 2015
Eclectic Refund the $3500 I paid until the proper seats are installed. Then I'll pay for them.
And that's a big compromise on my part, because I had a perfectly fine P85 that I was driving before...I would have been happy to continue driving it until the new car was actually ready, as ordered. I would still have $135k in my bank account and when the car that I ordered was actually ready, in March or April or whenever, then I'd have handed over the $135k.�
Jan 3, 2015
NigelM Mod note: couple of posts went to snippiness. Let's just leave out the name calling.�
Jan 3, 2015
svp6 Just to put the happiness guaranteed in perspective, I just signed my lease; when all was said and done, I had to pay ~13k. I have no intention of giving the car back, but if I understand the blog correctly, you will not see that money back. That is a quite good argument to keep the car. The second one comes when you drive it - it's awesome.�
Jan 3, 2015
EarlyAdopter So strange to see people on here making statements over what the "happiness guarantee" is and isn't, what it would cost, when it applies and when it doesn't, when in fact not a single person here has called Tesla on it and gotten an actual bona fide offer. What do you have to lose in requesting an offer, if you're unhappy?�
Jan 4, 2015
Johan I agree 100% with Eclectic:
- It's absolutely, completely wrong to ask a customer to sign a purchase contract that says the car was delivered with seats costing $3500 extra when it was not.
- it's OK I guess for Tesla to ask if the customer would be OK with paying for the seats in advance and have them installed later but if the customer says no to that then ABSOLUTELY refund the $3500 and charge it later when the seats are installed.
Now I know that Tesla are honest and very fair in the way the treat their customers, and this has been my personal experience too, but why then not do the contract and other paperwork correctly to reflect that??? Again we're left with poor communications.�
Jan 4, 2015
Jaff Elements of a contract....
Offer
Acceptance
Legality of object
Capacity to contract
Consideration
Simply, he did not have to accept the car in its (current state) at the time of delivery.
This does not let the Tesla DS off the hook for their error by not advising the buyer correctly.
However, a car is a complicated product, and given that the "missing next Gen seat at time of delivery" issue was already well known and "front and center" in the minds of those who were/are about to receive their P85D's, the buyer has to accept some of the responsibility here.
There used to be a clothier who advertised on TV (in the Buffalo area) when I was a kid...Sy Syms...his tag line was "an educated consumer is our best customer". This is a very true statement when speaking about a leading edge product.
To those who feel that Tesla should not take payment for the next Gen seats until they are delivered, you should revisit the elements of a contract...Tesla is simply not offering their product (with it's temporary "seat" defficiency) on this basis...if he couldn't accept this, hey should have refused delivery.�
Jan 4, 2015
zzzzdoc I was only upset that I had pointed out that the final contract I signed had to say that the Next Gen seats would be installed later, as I had paid for them. I knew they'd be late. Just a minor inconvenience.
And when I pointed out to my DS that the final contract said that nothing additional was to be delivered in the future, I insisted that they add that wording, and he readily agreed and resent me a corrected contract. All of that was perfectly fine.
But when I went to pick up the car at the SC, the wording was gone, and I had to go through insisting that it be added, which after a minor discussion and some phone calls did happen. It's that last part that was bad form. I should never have been handed a contract that said the car was delivered in full, with all of the options I had paid for, because it clearly had not. Not the end of the world, but bad communications and bad PR on Tesla's part.�
Jan 4, 2015
Eclectic What's strange is that you insist that there's a happiness guarantee on non-leases when there isn't. I've asked. It doesn't exist for cash purchases.
- - - Updated - - -
One thing you're missing in your Contracts 101 lesson is the F word: Fraud.
If something is misrepresented, it supersedes the terms of the fraudulently induced agreement.
A company that puts in its contract that you are getting product A (next gen seats), takes the money for that, asserts that product A is indeed being delivered, has defrauded the purchaser.
Perhaps some people don't care if they're defrauded. Perhaps others are aware of the fraud and don't do anything to stop it. But there's a large segment of people who don't read the boards and conduct extensive diligence on every nuance of potential fraud when they buy retail products.
My contract said my car had the next gen seats. I paid for them. The DS insisted that the seats in the car were next gen seats. You really think that I should have refused delivery on that basis????
And even if I did, take a look at the purchase agreement. It says you have to accept delivery of the car within a week of being told it's ready. Not accepting the car is a breach of the contract and you'd lose your deposit. Then you'd have to go to court to prove that the non-acceptance was justified.�
Jan 4, 2015
EarlyAdopter Yes, it does. You need to escalate above your DS.
Look, I'm the only one on this thread throwing you a rope and offering you a possible solution. I'm sorry you can't see that.�
Jan 4, 2015
Krugerrand Fraud actually requires 'intent' to deceive for personal or financial gain. There's no indication that Tesla or the DS intended anything of the sort. It's much more likely that the DS was simply wrong about which seats were in your car, no matter how insistent they were. Ask any husband how often he's absolutely positive of something that his wife is telling him differently. :wink: In the case of the paperwork that changed after signing - now we have a 'possible' argument for fraud, but more than likely someone made another mistake (certainly more grievous a mistake and one for which they should be reprimanded in some way for).
Now that your DS knows, Eclectic, that you've got the wrong seats, I'm quite sure that they specifically or some other Tesla employee will be happy to do whatever is within their power to make it right. Can you wait for the Next Gen seats to arrive from the supplier?�
Jan 4, 2015
Johan Now this is very interesting. Either the happiness guarantee exists for non-lease purchases or it doesn't. One of you must be correct and one of you must be wrong. I am very interested in knowing the final answer.
But what this also clearly demonstrates is that Tesla still suck at customer communications. And it proves the Delivery Specialists only sometimes live up to their title of "specialist".�
Jan 4, 2015
EarlyAdopter LOL. Could it be that you're having too much fun launching your P85D, like the rest of us, to consider giving back the car?
I mean, it's fine to come on here and grump and complain and all, but it usually helps to identify it as such so people don't waste their time trying to help give guidance on your next set of actions. If those next steps are to begrudgingly accept the situation, a compromise if you will, and wait for the seats to swap out, then great. Just let us know.�
Jan 4, 2015
Eclectic Perhaps you missed the part of my earlier posts where I said this:
"Yes, the technology is incredible. Yes, the incomplete car is still amazing. But you know what? I'm going to think long and hard before I purchase another vehicle from this company for as long as I hear that they play these games. My satisfaction should come before hitting FY2014 numbers, and that's not what is happening. Plus, the car is simply not the car I paid for. It's misleading and they're sitting on my money while I have first been lied to then I get some vague promise that I'll get what I paid for "soon". "
The issue is not whether the car, in its incomplete state, is fun to drive. If I bought a house that was supposed to have air conditioning and it turns out that it doesn't, the fact that I use the swimming pool to cool off doesn't mean that the missing air conditioning is no longer an issue.
The issue is whether Tesla fulfilled its obligations under the purchase agreement. I think I've been exceedingly clear in identifying the problem. I've also been exceedingly clear in pointing out that there is no happiness guarantee under the purchase agreement. Now, there are some people who may want to make up guarantees that don't exist and insist that fraud isn't fraud because the underlying product is to their liking, but none of those things change reality.
The thing is that the people who want to brush aside serious customer service and contract issues are actually doing Tesla a disservice. "Earlyadopters" tend to be happy to put up with things that the mass market won't tolerate.
I've had several interactions with my DS. MY DS has told me that if I get a refund on the seats now, I won't be able to buy them when they're available at the $3500 price I've already paid (this is bizarre, because it's really all I'm looking for, but Tesla seems to think that getting a refund means that you never ordered the seats and thus they can't be retrofitted). The alternative is that Tesla keeps my money and one day I'll get what I paid for. I understand that you think I should just shut up and be happy that I had the privilege to buy a P85D, even if it's not what I paid for. If you'd like to give me the $3500 back, then I'll accept your position.�
Jan 4, 2015
Vitaman I am in the same boat as Eclectic (as many are).
It never occurred to me to be strongly bothered by the seat situation because A-I had been waiting for the car for almost 5 months and was ecstatic to get it.
And B-I had read so much about the issue that when I opened the front door I figured there was a 50/50 chance I would only have to wait for new rear seats.
That being said, Eclectic makes a cogent case.
If Tesla was smart, they would send emails out to the people waiting for seats thanking them for being patient and giving a general idea when they might come. (Like by Groundhog's Day or before Easter)
Then offering a small token like all weather mats or something would go a long way to smooth ruffled feathers.�
Jan 5, 2015
breser I've read through this thread and I understand the frustration over a DS saying you got the seats, the paperwork saying you got the seats, accepting delivery and then finding out you didn't get the proper seats and that they'd be coming sometime in the future.
The "happiness guarantee" for buyers (not leasers) is not something in writing. It's something that Tesla will do in some circumstances (Elon's blog doesn't call it a guarantee). From what I've seen it's usually done on a very discrete basis. I traded my September '14 S85 for an 85D with a relatively small loss because I was disappointed over just missing the autopilot sensors. I don't believe that the price I was given by Tesla for the S85 I sold back was the FMV of the car, but instead was much above that. Nobody ever told me they were giving me a good deal, but looking around at the market gives me good reason to believe they did so.
I can't understand how returning the car is particularly helpful in this situation though. Even if you take Elon's blog at it's face, the owner would be losing something on this deal (damage/mileage). It leaves the owner without a car until the new car can be built (probably 2-3 months). All so that the owner can get seats that Tesla says they can put in the car once they become available.
If you're not happy with the situation, I'd escalate this above your DS, probably to a Regional Manager.�
Jan 5, 2015
Canuck It seems like it's time for a refresher in Contracts 101.
Innocent or negligent misrepresentation do not supersede the agreement and proving fraud in these circumstances is not going to happen. You are also better off pleading negligent misrepresentation since, if you plead fraud and do not prove it, you expose yourself to significant costs.
If misrepresentation can be proved, the issue is whether the misrepresentation goes to the main substance of the contract, in which case rescission will be granted, or if it can be remedied, in which case damages will be awarded. When it comes to major items like buildings, for example, the courts look to things like the structure and foundation as not being able to remedied, and grant rescission, but a new roof, for example, can be remedied with the equivalent amount in damages.
In the case of different seats, the courts would not rescind the contract but would order the equivalent in damages. Then again, Tesla is giving you the new seats, so this is not an issue.
I agree that Tesla handled this issue very badly and the optics do not look good.�
Jan 5, 2015
Johan @Canuck: what does your closing sentence mean? "The optics"?�
Jan 5, 2015
ecarfan By "optics" I assume he means the customer perception of how the issue was handled, and how others may perceive it.�
Jan 5, 2015
Johan "The optics of how it looks" is a real tautology. It means the same as "how it looks".�
Jan 5, 2015
Canuck Yes, you're right. It was poorly worded on my part.�
Jan 6, 2015
RAW84 Agreed.
I liken this to closing on a new construction house. If 3%of the house still needs to be completed, I think most of us would agree a fair option for both parties would be to close and withhold funds pending the completion. Seller gets paid for his substantial completion, buyer can move ahead with all the things that go with buying a new house. Now, I feel more confident in Tesla delivering on its promise than a builder who are notorious for cutting and running once they've been paid, so I had no qualms paying in full, but it's perfectly understandable if others don't feel the same. $3500 isn't some negligible amount of money.
It may not be fraud, but I think it definitely qualifies as an unsavory business practice (which is becoming, or had long been, an issue for them)�
Jan 6, 2015
montauto Same situation with me ...
Had to figure out by myself that the car Tesla is trying to deliver has the wrong seats ...
My DS asked me to sign the delivery paperwork BEFORE the actual car delivery, because he knew I was going out of town for few days and he used that and a tactic about the Federal tax credit to lure me into signing about delivery without actually having the car there. I signed ..
The other day I returned from my trip and went to the SC. I wasn't aware that Tesla was delivering cars with the wrong seats, because I don't really follow the forums ... No one from Tesla including the DS was mentioning anything to me about my car being delivered with the wrong seats. When I looked up the seats I have immediately noticed that those are the old seats and I questioned the DS. He acted like he doesn't know anything and called a technician to "verify" whether those are next gen seats or not
You can imagine my disappointment since I've ordered a P85D for about $150k ( all possible options including child seats and extra set of wheels and winter tires ) and these crooks are trying to scam me by not telling me anything.
I told them, I'm not accepting the car and I want a new one built the way I ordered. They started mentioning that I will lose my deposit bla bla ... Can you imagine .. ?
I left the SC and I contacted my lawyer. She contacted the DS and he is not responding.
Not to mention that I was rushed back in June to order a Model S with my existing reservation for Model X, because Model X has been delayed and no one mentioned to me that a AWD Model S is about to come out in October, so I ordered a P85+ , took delivery end of September and 5 days later Elon announced the "D"... I was shocked, because if I knew I would've waited ...
After bitter conversations with Tesla I traded the car for the P85D with huge loss and now Tesla is screwing me again ...
I like the car, but Tesla totally ruined my entire experience with their company and my new car buying experience ...
I guess I'll go to court to sue Tesla for breach of contract and whatever else we could come up with and see how that will go ... It's just beyond belief how this company operates...
Very disappointed.�
Jan 7, 2015
EarlyAdopter How did your "class action lawsuit" over the autopilot sensors work out?
Hearing about the D just 9 days after taking delivery of P85+ merits a switch!!! - Page 11�
Jan 7, 2015
Jaff Montauto, if you cannot handle the bleeding edge issues that can arise with any part of the purchase, delivery, or operation of a Tesla, or any other bleeding edge type technology or service, why don't you save yourself the aggravation and avoid these products and services? (return the car / refuse delivery)
I rather doubt, as you suggest, that the DS asking you to sign the paperwork ahead of time, was for any other reason than to permit you to get your tax credit on time...had your paperwork been signed late, then you would have been complaining the other way about this issue.
True, Tesla has not handled your situation as well as they should have, but, with all of your complaints (both past and current) about Tesla, I do not understand why you keep trying to acquire one.
�
Jan 7, 2015
montauto Well, after this fiasco I will stop trying to acquire one, but as of now here is the breakdown ... I've spent about $7k for Wall connector + electric installation, then I had to absorb $30k loss to trade the P85+ to get P85D, so I don't have much choice but to somehow get what I paid for ... Of course in the future I will not deal with Tesla anymore or at least not until they show rock solid confidence by avoiding such shady issues.
I have refused delivery, but now Tesla is silent ... another one of their games ... My lawyer reached out to them and they simply replied: "We will get back to you soon ... "
What is that ?
As stated the main technology such as battery, speed, torque, handling are great, but side components of how they handle their business when there is an issue is pretty close to fraudulent, don't you think ?
Many say, Tesla has great customer service because they will replace the seats as soon as they become available... Well do you really think that they do that for you ? They've made their calculation carefully that while losing money by swapping those seats, they will lose much more if they halt production on P85D until they get everything in place properly to built those cars and then deliver them, but they chose what suits them, namely screw few hundred people, but keep going to meet their Sales / production goals and meet the expectation of Wall street etc ... That's brutal, don't you think ?
The most fair way was to inform the customers that they can not build certain cars the way they were ordered and let me make the choice whether I want it that way or not. It's so simple, but they were afraid many will refuse to take delivery and will opt out to wait, which would be my preference, but instead they pulled this crap ... Really while they've managed to come up with great technology, the way they do business is simply not acceptable.
Also, I am NOT a Tesla supporter to forgive their mistakes, I am their customer and they have to live up to their values. They started selling those cars couple of years back and they've been in business for a decade now, but for some crazy reason they rush things, God knows why and push the negatives to their customers.
I feel betrayed by Tesla, because I was a believer and I'm pretty sure many others feel the same way and soon many will give up on them if they continue in the same fashion.
At least this is my opinion and this is how I feel...
- - - Updated - - -
We have to go through arbitration first, before we start court proceeding, however this was placed on hold because we have reached an agreement for the trade that was somewhat acceptable to me.
Now we're back to where we started with the seat issue, because I paid them, but I don't have a car and they already took my trade or in other words, Tesla took my cash and left me without a car
In few days if I don't get somehow compensated by Tesla I will start the arbitration process and if we don't settle there, the court will be next.
I still believe in the US court system and I will make sure to take it there if they don't make it right.�
Jan 8, 2015
NigelM Based on my experience as a customer for the last four years: yes, I think Tesla will honor that promise.
And I agree with you on that point. I think it's pretty clear to everyone (including the folks at Tesla) that it was not their finest hour in terms of customer communication. With hindsight it wasn't all Tesla's fault but nevertheless they have maybe learned something.
Free advice: accusing folks of being crooks, trying to scam you, fraudulent activity etc. might find you in court for quite a different reason.�
Jan 8, 2015
Jaff I would disagree with many of your assertions...
No one from Tesla insisted that you buy a P85D...that was your decision...so if you suffered a financial loss due to depreciation of your trade, then that loss occurred due to your actions, not Tesla's actions...there was no coercion here, no shady practices...just your desire (the same as many of the rest of us) for whatever reason(s), that you desired, to upgrade your car to the "D".
The "silence" by the DS from Tesla would be standard corporate policy from any large firm who has been contacted by a customer's legal representative...I would suggest that the DS will no longer have authority to speak on Tesla's behalf, without either guidance from "head office", or, more likely, someone from head office will have to take over communications with your legal representative...it is another link in the chain...another step to be dealt with...and unfortunately, extra links in the chain cause delays...I do not see any "games being played" here.
Tesla definitely has some failures (certainly not all...in fact the majority of the delivery experiences since inception (I'm on my 3rd Tesla), have been acceptable)...their delivery failure have been due to a variety of factors, but fraud (and I deal with the potential of fraud weekly in my business) is certainly not amongst these factors.
To answer your question about the rear Next Gen seats (missing on my P85D as well), the thought that Tesla will not perform as contractually obligated, has never entered my mind...and I would suggest that it has only entered a few folks minds...you are by far in the minority with your stance on this issue.
You state that Tesla has " made their calculation carefully that while losing money by swapping those seats, they will lose much more if they halt production on P85D until they get everything in place properly to built those cars and then deliver them, but they chose what suits them, namely screw few hundred people, but keep going to meet their Sales / production goals and meet the expectation of Wall street"...why would you expect any nascent company in an industry that is very difficult, complicated, and undergoing rapid change, to act any differently?...they had a supply chain issue come up, and they're dealing with in in the most cost effective way that they can...that is fiscal / corporate responsibility, not "screwing people".
With respect to the "fairness issue", this is a double edged sword...you feel that it is fair to keep your money in your pocket until the Next Gen seats are installed in your vehicle...Tesla does not...outside of any sort of "business practice / business moral" argument, there is certainly no legal argument to support your argument's side...again, a review of the elements of a contract will show that for those of us who are waiting for our Next Gen seats, but accepted delivery of our cars, we made the decision to do so...as you have stated that you have refused delivery of the car, you have done the right thing based on the tenets of your arguments...however, it is simply not correct to say that Tesla should agree to alter their contract (which we all signed) because of the failure to deliver the Next Gen seats at the time of the car's delivery...this is a business decision by Tesla, not a contractual obligation (not to be confused with the contractual obligation of Tesla to eventually fulfill delivery of the seats).
�
Jan 8, 2015
Zaxxon I don't yet own a Tesla, so I'm hoping someone can answer this for me: does the MVPA really state this? In other words, in a case where Tesla provides a choice of options, and I as the buyer select and pay for one option, then am presented with a vehicle that instead is equipped with the cheaper option, I am not allowed to refuse delivery without losing my deposit?
Seriously? I don't accuse Tesla of any maliciousness, but this seems like a clear-cut case where refusing delivery should be a completely acceptable response. Perhaps if Tesla was not only offering to retrofit the ordered seats, but also delay asking for payment for those seats, I could see a case to not let the customer out of the contract. But this seems pretty clear-cut to me: the car is functionally not what the customer ordered, and the customer was not given the chance to approve or reject the change prior to delivery.�
Jan 8, 2015
Jgdixon Montauto you really want to pay all the legal costs for this? Seems ridiculous to me.
I for one can't believe you aren't listening to all of us who have been dealing with Tesla for many years. They will make it right, I have no doubt. You seem to thrive on confrontation. Oh well each to his own I guess.�
Jan 8, 2015
Gizmotoy In most jurisdictions, after initial contact by a customer's solicitor, a company is no longer permitted to contact the customer directly. This is seen by the courts as an attempt by the company to circumvent the legal process under the assumption that only the lawyer is truly aware of the customer's rights, and thus all communication involving the case must be routed through the lawyer.
The fact that Tesla going silent is likely a simple side-effect of acknowledging that a lawyer is now involved. As you'd expect, this substantially slows communication as four parties are involved instead of two.
It doesn't explicitly. The MVPA you sign verifies the car is delivered in the condition you ordered. Any substantial differences will void the contract. I believe the only escape clause for your deposit was inability to secure financing, though. Per the contract that would leave Tesla free to deliver not-as-described cars and keep deposits, but it's unlikely they could ever successfully keep a deposit for such a case. Just because it's not explicitly spelled out in the contract doesn't mean the practice is permitted.
The point is moot, though, as he signed the MVPA and accepted delivery of the vehicle. In doing so, he agreed to delivery of the seats he ordered at a later date. There's blame to go around, certainly Tesla should have notified him, but that's one of the risks of accepting delivery sight-unseen.�
Jan 8, 2015
Zaxxon I'm with you there.�
Jan 8, 2015
breser The MVPA (link is my MVPA for my 85D, ommited first page is just the vehicle configuration, my personal information and when I accepted the MVPA at order time) is not entered when the car is delivered it's entered when the car is ordered. In fact it's entered before you even confirm the order. I believe Tesla is in breach of contract if they deliver a car that is not in accordance with the Vehicle Configuration. The MVPA says that damages are limited to reimbursement of his deposit. So I suspect all he'll be able to get out of this would be the return of his deposit. Which I believe if he'd asked nicely Tesla would have done anyway.�
Jan 8, 2015
Gizmotoy I never said it was effective as of time of delivery, I said it is used to verify and prove the car as-delivered is the car you ordered. The first page is where all your configuration information resides, and what you'd use to prove Tesla tried to provide a vehicle other than what you ordered.
It sounds like they changed the ordering process, though. My MVPA is signed and dated by both parties a little over 30 days prior to delivery, two full months after I placed and confirmed my order.
As a note, your MVPA link appears to be broken.�
Jan 8, 2015
breser Right and his MVPA, based on what's been said in this thread already, says he ordered NextGen seats. Tesla told him at delivery he had NextGen seats, but it turns out he doesn't have them. Which seems to me to be a pretty clear breach of contract. You can argue that he should have realized this at delivery (especially since he had a P85 and should be familiar with the existing seats). But I don't think him accepting delivery gets Tesla off the hook entirely.
He is of course free to accept something different or accept the seats being delivered later. But he clearly doesn't want to accept that.
Personally, I think he's being a tad unreasonable, but I also think he's well within his rights to be unreasonable. He probably won't get any more (possibly even less) by going to a lawyer/courts than he would by talking to Tesla. A court is probably going to be willing to let Tesla simply put the right seats in, since that seems like the most expedient remedy.
This is the same process I used for my first order back in August of last year, and based on your signature I believe it's the same process that would have been in place when you ordered. The first page says "Date order placed with electronically accepted terms" and then it gives the date I placed the order. On my first order I never signed a physical copy of this. I only signed paperwork to effect the title transfer and registration (including a document giving them power of attorney to do so).
There may be differences in the process between states though.
Works just fine here, what error are you getting?�
Jan 8, 2015
Gizmotoy Maybe, or they'd just changed the process. I ordered on 9/2. I first received the MVPA on 11/4/13. I signed on 11/5 and passed it along for financing, and Tesla signed 11/6. My delivery was 11/23. Presumably the effective date was 11/6 (it doesn't state otherwise). Prior to that, it's not like you can be held to a contract neither party signed.
As I mentioned, though, I agree with you. This should have been clearly noted at his delivery. His acceptance of the delivery clearly complicates matters, though. Blame all around.
Link seems to be working, now. For awhile there it wasn't indicating that %20 for that space in the URL, but it seems to have resolved itself. Forum hiccup, perhaps.�
Jan 8, 2015
Zaxxon FYI, Tesla has what I would imagine is a current MVPA (US) here.�
Jan 8, 2015
breser Thanks for the link but it appears to be out of date. That MVPA has the following at the bottom "v. 20131004 en_US". Mine has "v. 20140911 en_US". No idea what version applies to this specific order. I haven't bothered to look for specific differences. On curious thing is the link you provided has a 2015 copyright but mine has a 2014 copyright. So who knows.�
Jan 8, 2015
Eclectic What I will find interesting is how Tesla recognizes the revenue from the seats that weren't delivered in the financials for the just ended fiscal quarter. For the cars, like mine, that were delivered without the next gen seats, the $3500 in revenue shouldn't be recognized until the seats are actually installed or there should be reserves for the future cost of installing the seats. This is obviously a separate issue from whether Tesla had a right to obtain payment for the seats in the first place...
It's one thing to play fast and loose with customers; it's another thing to do it with investors and the SEC.
[And no, for those wondering, I did not receive anything from Tesla in response to my request for a refund of the amount I paid for the seats pending their delivery. At this point I realize that I'm just going to have to wait. A small victory for Tesla, I suppose, but it certainly leaves a very bad taste in my mouth about future dealings with this company]�
Jan 8, 2015
breser How do you know they're recognizing the revenue?�
Jan 8, 2015
Eclectic I don't. That's why I said it will be interesting to see how they treat the revenue in their next quarterly report.�
Jan 8, 2015
EarlyAdopter I think up to this point Tesla has largely only had to deal with Dolphins and Whales as customers. Now it seems they are starting to see some Sharks. I do not envy them.�
Jan 8, 2015
montauto Definitely Tesla has some fans here and that's good
I do realize that by opening legal action the risk of even wasting more money is not small at all, but someone has to do it someday and hopefully this company will get their act together and stop doing what they've been doing.
I'm simply very negatively surprised how they act and as of this moment I just can't let it go�
Jan 10, 2015
mdevp I see the problem here...you should be suing your electrician!�
Jan 10, 2015
montauto Funny
if you want 100 amps charge and your electric panel is 100 feet away from the garage and you have to open a bunch of walls etc this how much it would cost at the end
and in Chicago everything is expensive
but you made me laugh�
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