teslamotorclub: Model X Autopilot Problem

I got Model X 90D in March. About two weeks later, I drove the X to Vegas with my wife and two little girls. After we got on the freeway, I started to use autopilot. The weather condition was great. I set the autopilot at the speed of 80 mph with 5 cars distance. I was very cautious with this Autopilot technology, especially my whole family was in the car, so I kept my eyes on it. It was very amazing when the car drove itself on the freeway at the very beginning, but not too long, I saw the car in front of me was slowing down, but the X continued to accelerate to 80 mph, even though it detected the front car! In the instrument panel, the front car became red and warning beeping sound alarmed, but no sign of auto braking. I immediately brake the car, and fortunately enough to avoid crashing into the front car. It all happened within seconds. My wife called Tesla customer service to report this incident a few minutes later. The service rep on the phone seemed not too surprised and told me he had a similar situation while driving his own S.

We paid $2500 to add autopilot feature, but it's Beta version. When you use beta software in your computer, your computer might crash, not a big deal, you can always restart the computer and uninstall the beta software. But, when the Autopilot is beta, and if it crashes, there is no restart button... Is it Tesla too soon to add autopilot? I think it is.
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I suggest you immediately sell your car and never look back.
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micqing said: ?

I got Model X 90D in March. About two weeks later, I drove the X to Vegas with my wife and two little girls. After we got on the freeway, I started to use autopilot. The weather condition was great. I set the autopilot at the speed of 80 mph with 5 cars distance. I was very cautious with this Autopilot technology, especially my whole family was in the car, so I kept my eyes on it. It was very amazing when the car drove itself on the freeway at the very beginning, but not too long, I saw the car in front of me was slowing down, but the X continued to accelerate to 80 mph, even though it detected the front car! In the instrument panel, the front car became red and warning beeping sound alarmed, but no sign of auto braking. I immediately brake the car, and fortunately enough to avoid crashing into the front car. It all happened within seconds. My wife called Tesla customer service to report this incident a few minutes later. The service rep on the phone seemed not too surprised and told me he had a similar situation while driving his own S.

We paid $2500 to add autopilot feature, but it's Beta version. When you use beta software in your computer, your computer might crash, not a big deal, you can always restart the computer and uninstall the beta software. But, when the Autopilot is beta, and if it crashes, there is no restart button... Is it Tesla too soon to add autopilot? I think it is.
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I am sorry, maybe others who actually own a Tesla should chime in, but I am not sure I understand your problem.

You knew AP was in Beta when you selected the $2500 extra, right? This means the SW will eventually get better, but for now - and maybe for good with the AP 1.0 HW you have - Tesla openly tells you in their manual and every communication they have about AP that you have to stay alert and prepared to take over.... So the first time you actually have to take over you complain this is in Beta?

Also, on a side-note:
1, Do you know of any manufacturer (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, you name it) that has an automatic emergency braking system, that tells you that from now on you don't have to use the brakes at all, the car will do it for you? Of course not. They have fine-print allover their manuals saying that their system may not detect all situations and you are responsible as the driver. They just don't call it Beta -if anything Tesla is more honest than others.

After 1 minute of googling, here is a piece of a Mercedes owner's manual:

"PRE-SAFE� Brake cannot always clearly identify objects and complex traffic conditions. In these cases, PRE-SAFE� Brake may:
- give an unnecessary warning and then brake the vehicle
- not give a warning or intervene
There is a risk of an accident. Always pay particular attention to the traffic situation and be ready to brake..."

2, every situation where you overrule AP actually helps make it better via the self-learning features and centralized data processing at Tesla HQ.
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micqing said: ?

I got Model X 90D in March. About two weeks later, I drove the X to Vegas with my wife and two little girls. After we got on the freeway, I started to use autopilot. The weather condition was great. I set the autopilot at the speed of 80 mph with 5 cars distance. I was very cautious with this Autopilot technology, especially my whole family was in the car, so I kept my eyes on it. It was very amazing when the car drove itself on the freeway at the very beginning, but not too long, I saw the car in front of me was slowing down, but the X continued to accelerate to 80 mph, even though it detected the front car! In the instrument panel, the front car became red and warning beeping sound alarmed, but no sign of auto braking. I immediately brake the car, and fortunately enough to avoid crashing into the front car. It all happened within seconds. My wife called Tesla customer service to report this incident a few minutes later. The service rep on the phone seemed not too surprised and told me he had a similar situation while driving his own S.

We paid $2500 to add autopilot feature, but it's Beta version. When you use beta software in your computer, your computer might crash, not a big deal, you can always restart the computer and uninstall the beta software. But, when the Autopilot is beta, and if it crashes, there is no restart button... Is it Tesla too soon to add autopilot? I think it is.
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I dont believe you have a Tesla.
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electricity said: ?

I dont believe you have a Tesla.
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LOL
Why?
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It's definitely time to panic. Hang on I'm gonna list mine on CL.
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micqing said: ?

I set the autopilot at the speed of 80 mph with 5 cars distance.
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Is that distance gap at 80mph what you normally do when driving? That is much too close. Use some common sense and think about the physics and your reaction time. Set the distance to the maximum and pay attention.

Also, read the manual very carefully.
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set the distance to 7 and leave it there, then, and here is the important part, pay attention! you are still driving the car and the "autopilot" is only assisting you.
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My Subaru Legacy with Eyesight does the same thing. Accelerates into stopped traffic and then throws up a red "obstacle detected" warning with audible alarm when we get too close for it to stop and if it's on me to brake/swerve. I don't regularly set the eyesight anymore above 70 mph due to increased stopping distance at higher speeds.

I know it's not tesla autopilot but do want to be clear that no driver assist tech is perfect right now. At least autopilot can steer, the Subaru eyesight just 'ping pongs' off the lane lines if your lucky.

Kudos for remaining attentive and engaged while your driver assist technology works as intended and allows you to relax your arms/legs the majority of the time in fluctuating speed highway driving. If autopilot was available for my Classic Model S I would buy it in a heart beat with full acceptance of its advantage and perceived flaws.
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I think one of the best features of AP is when on a highway in traffic at about 40 mph and traffic speed increases to the point AP accelerates fast and approaches the vechile infront of you and you are thinking if it is going to stop in time and it finally breaks hard and your passengers heads jerk. (Gotta love beta)......
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micqing said: ?

I got Model X 90D in March. About two weeks later, I drove the X to Vegas with my wife and two little girls. After we got on the freeway, I started to use autopilot. The weather condition was great. I set the autopilot at the speed of 80 mph with 5 cars distance. I was very cautious with this Autopilot technology, especially my whole family was in the car, so I kept my eyes on it. It was very amazing when the car drove itself on the freeway at the very beginning, but not too long, I saw the car in front of me was slowing down, but the X continued to accelerate to 80 mph, even though it detected the front car! In the instrument panel, the front car became red and warning beeping sound alarmed, but no sign of auto braking. I immediately brake the car, and fortunately enough to avoid crashing into the front car. It all happened within seconds. My wife called Tesla customer service to report this incident a few minutes later. The service rep on the phone seemed not too surprised and told me he had a similar situation while driving his own S.

We paid $2500 to add autopilot feature, but it's Beta version. When you use beta software in your computer, your computer might crash, not a big deal, you can always restart the computer and uninstall the beta software. But, when the Autopilot is beta, and if it crashes, there is no restart button... Is it Tesla too soon to add autopilot? I think it is.
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When I used AP, I always set the front car distance to 7 (whatever that means) and so far seems to be working okay. I am also wary of the software so I have everything set to the most conservative settings.
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I set my distance to 2 ...and use AP every day and I dont see any of these problems
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Even without AP engaged, the TACC would slow the car. What the OP is describing (if true) is TACC behavior, not Autosteer.
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ecarfan said: ?

Is that distance gap at 80mph what you normally do when driving? That is much too close. Use some common sense and think about the physics and your reaction time. Set the distance to the maximum and pay attention.

Also, read the manual very carefully.
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Absolutely agree. At that speed 7 is the right number but vigilance is required.

btw: you can silence the skeptics by providing a picture of you picking up your X.....5 posts raise eyebrows.....
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Rdainer said: ?

I set my distance to 2 ...and use AP every day and I dont see any of these problems
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2 at 80mph is not right....however, having just spent 2 hrs. in bumper to bumper traffic through DC I can see why 2 would apply.....did same.
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Is it possible the car you were actually following moved out of the lane? And the car that had been in front of it was the one you almost hit?

If the car AP is tracking moves out of the lane it can take a few secs for AP to lock onto the new lead car. In between the AP may not slow down and may even accelerate. When driving with AP this is one scenario I'm always on lookout for.
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micqing said: ?

LOL
Why?
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It's easy. When owners post we look for a solution to a problem. You dont want a solution, you just want to let us know how bad AP is , in bad English from California on your 4th post.
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micqing said: ?

I saw the car in front of me was slowing down, but the X continued to accelerate to 80 mph...When you use beta software in your computer, your computer might crash, not a big deal, you can always restart the computer and uninstall the beta software. But, when the Autopilot is beta, and if it crashes, there is no restart button....
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Yes, it is beta and you know that and understand the risks.

Unfortunately, the other people on the road, like that car in front of you, didn't sign up for the beta program and don't know the risk of driving near a beta tester.

Maybe you can put a sign on your car when you are doing the beta testing.
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X Fan said: ?

btw: you can silence the skeptics by providing a picture of you picking up your X.....5 posts raise eyebrows.....
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As a new poster, that would add some credibility. If your story is accurate, very troubling for Tesla. What's the point of the system, if you can't trust when you need it. As described, it only adds to distraction.
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electricity said: ?

I dont believe you have a Tesla.
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I don't believe that you don't believe that he doesn't have a Tesla.
I believe that you want to believe that, but don't, since it is more comforting to believe that than believe what he has written.
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Drivin said: ?

I don't believe that you don't believe that he doesn't have a Tesla.
I believe that you want to believe that, but don't, since it is more comforting to believe that than believe what he has written.
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Unfortunately there are so many people who have joined just to put down Tesla that it has become difficult to trust that what they are saying is true. Why did you join?
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General info about stopping distances and killing people via ignorance of it.

If you are 80 feet (5 cars) behind me when I was going 117 fps (80mph), I would think you were a drunk or an idiot.

You should be at LEAST 200 feet at that speed. Seriously. Just the different in stopping distances between cars makes sub 1 second following something done by fools. The stopping distance in good conditions at 70mph is 172 feet in an X. Sports cars stop in under 130 feet at 70mph with stock tires.

Somebody with good reaction time and 2 foot driving is a 1/4 second to brake lights in cars. Normal people are 1/2 second with one foot driving. Distracted is easily past 1 second. And you gave yourself 0.7 seconds? Even the TACC can't actually make up the difference between car models when using 5 cars/80mph. If a vette nails it's brakes in front of you, and the car instantly goes max brakes, that 80 feet at 80mph will be consumed by the difference in stopping distances.

In any case, following distance should always be measured in time, not distance. Obviously following distance changes with speed.

This is naturally assuming public roads. Closed course? Rubbing is racing.
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The general rule is 3 seconds. You need 3 seconds between you and the car in front to account for reaction time. 70 mph is about 103 feet/sec. That means you need to be back about 309'. As AEB gets better it will become safer to follow closer but right now the 3 second rule is still a good one. Two seconds is pushing it and means you better be very vigilant. All of this assumes your car and the car you are following have the same braking distances.
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micqing said: ?

I set the autopilot at the speed of 80 mph with 5 cars distance. I was very cautious with this Autopilot technology... I saw the car in front of me was slowing down, but the X continued to accelerate to 80 mph, even though it detected the front car!
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Your story doesn't make sense. You can't set autopilot to 80mph unless 1) you're already driving 80mph when you engage it or 2) the speed limit is 80mph, or 3) you set a positive relative offset (for example +10mph and the speed limit is 70mph) while you are driving slower than 80mph. If 3), how is setting a positive offset being cautious? In any case, your second claim is even more suspect. How could your car accelerate to 80mph if you're already driving 80mph? If you were driving slower than 80mph when the incident occurred why would the car wait until that moment to accelerate to 80mph? Or if you meant it was slowly accelerating the whole time, how long is it taking your X to reach 80mph on autopilot? I don't understand how your car could "continue to accelerate" to 80mph when this incident occurred.
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I must say that I am a bit surprised at the scorn some folks heap in this forum on anyone that dares criticize anything Tesla. I think this discourages some from sharing their concerns and experiences and diminishes the value of learning more about the dynamics or quirks of these amazing cars.

I am curious about the failure of adaptive cruise control in this case. The situation described does not really apply to beta auto steer but rather to a technology that has been out for a long time. Most cars with adaptive cruise would sense the car slowing down ahead and adjust the speed accordingly.

My previous Audi SQ5 would beep if I was not braking in response to the car in front of me slowing down rapidly, and then apply the brakes to slow me down if I did not react fast enough. Great system except when someone slowed to turn right off the road and I was slipping by them on the left. This was not even with cruise on and simply a safety feature of that car. With cruise on, it would adjust the distance automatically based on speed and brake hard if the car in front of me did so.

So far my MX has not slowed me down when I have been distracted and someone braked in front of me suddenly (cruise and auto steer off). I wonder if this is even a feature or if it has softer settings than in the Audi. The adaptive cruise in my car has worked well however and adjusted the distance flawlessly on the highway and in stop and go traffic.

So some questions here:

1. Does the MX brake if the car in front slows suddenly but your cruise and AP are not activated?
2. Is the distance setting of 5 mean 5 car lengths at any speed (fixed distance) or is it a 5 second gap at whatever speed you are going? Or something more arcane?
3. Is it possible that the sensors were dirty on Micquing's car and would this make a difference?
4. Is there a glitch in the algorithms for detection of cars slowing ahead and has anyone else had this problem?

S
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commasign said: ?

Your story doesn't make sense. You can't set autopilot to 80mph unless 1) you're already driving 80mph when you engage it or 2) the speed limit is 80mph, or 3) you set a positive relative offset (for example +10mph and the speed limit is 70mph) while you are driving slower than 80mph. If 3), how is setting a positive offset being cautious? In any case, your second claim is even more suspect. How could your car accelerate to 80mph if you're already driving 80mph? If you were driving slower than 80mph when the incident occurred why would the car wait until that moment to accelerate to 80mph? Or if you meant it was slowly accelerating the whole time, how long is it taking your X to reach 80mph on autopilot? I don't understand how your car could "continue to accelerate" to 80mph when this incident occurred.
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On a divided highway you can set autopilot all the way up to 90mph, regardless of speed limit. It only restricts the speed if you are on a non-divided highway, and then it's 5mph over the limit.
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Don't forget that a setting of "5" on the following distance doesn't necessarily mean 5 car lengths, just like 2 doesn't mean 2 car lengths. It varies by your speed, try it out.
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X Fan said: ?

Absolutely agree. At that speed 7 is the right number but vigilance is required.

btw: you can silence the skeptics by providing a picture of you picking up your X.....5 posts raise eyebrows.....
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Here is my Model X
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@Epymiam - It's not scorn, it's skepticism. Many of us here are also TSLA investors and it's been an annoying few months with constant false accusations/stories of Tesla problems which have the unfortunate affect of affecting the stock price and tarnishing the brand in the media. An accusation of unintended acceleration is very serious. As an experienced Tesla owner, I just don't buy this story at face value. It's either made up or the OP is leaving out/changing important details. To answer your questions:

1) yes
2) it's relative scale where follow distance varies with speed at each setting.
3) no. The car (annoyingly) reports sensor errors in real time.
4) no. I have a follow setting of "3" and have had zero issues with regular highway traffic and thousands of miles of autopilot driving. The only time there is some risk is if the car in front of you panic brakes but in many or most situations the driver might not fare any better if autopilot were off.
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McRat said: ?

General info about stopping distances and killing people via ignorance of it.

If you are 80 feet (5 cars) behind me when I was going 117 fps (80mph), I would think you were a drunk or an idiot.

You should be at LEAST 200 feet at that speed. Seriously. Just the different in stopping distances between cars makes sub 1 second following something done by fools. The stopping distance in good conditions at 70mph is 172 feet in an X. Sports cars stop in under 130 feet at 70mph with stock tires.

Somebody with good reaction time and 2 foot driving is a 1/4 second to brake lights in cars. Normal people are 1/2 second with one foot driving. Distracted is easily past 1 second. And you gave yourself 0.7 seconds? Even the TACC can't actually make up the difference between car models when using 5 cars/80mph. If a vette nails it's brakes in front of you, and the car instantly goes max brakes, that 80 feet at 80mph will be consumed by the difference in stopping distances.

In any case, following distance should always be measured in time, not distance. Obviously following distance changes with speed.

This is naturally assuming public roads. Closed course? Rubbing is racing.
Click to expand...

FYI, 5 cars distance is not the stopping distance, it's the adaptive driving distance between your car and the car in front of you, and keep that distance while driving. Front car slows, your car slows automatically and vice versa
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Drivin said: ?

Yes, it is beta and you know that and understand the risks.

Unfortunately, the other people on the road, like that car in front of you, didn't sign up for the beta program and don't know the risk of driving near a beta tester.

Maybe you can put a sign on your car when you are doing the beta testing.
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All the other systems (MBz, etc) that have been tested to perform worse do not say anything about being in test development.
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proven said: ?

On a divided highway you can set autopilot all the way up to 90mph, regardless of speed limit. It only restricts the speed if you are on a non-divided highway, and then it's 5mph over the limit.
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Yes, but to set the speed you actually have to be traveling at that speed or use a positive offset or that has to be the posted speed limit. There is no knob or number pad or other interface option with which to "set" the autopilot speed to be 90mph.
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I just returned from a 2200 mile trip across NV and ID. Most of the driving on AP at 80 or 85. AP performed flawlessly, slowing smoothly behind traffic, changing lanes and no false exits.
Something is fishy about this story.
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Rdainer said: ?

I set my distance to 2 ...and use AP every day and I dont see any of these problems
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I am relieved to see that you are located in Washington DC and not in my area because I do not want to be driving on the freeway at 70 and be followed by a Tesla owner who has their TACC distance set at 2. That is far too close. If the car in front of you had to make an emergency stop, by the time you or your TACC could react your frunk would be compressed into the trunk of the car in front of you.
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commasign said: ?

@Epymiam - It's not scorn, it's skepticism. Many of us here are also TSLA investors and it's been an annoying few months with constant false accusations/stories of Tesla problems which have the unfortunate affect of affecting the stock price and tarnishing the brand in the media. An accusation of unintended acceleration is very serious. As an experienced Tesla owner, I just don't buy this story at face value. It's either made up or the OP is leaving out/changing important details. To answer your questions:

1) yes
2) it's relative scale where follow distance varies with speed at each setting.
3) no. The car (annoyingly) reports sensor errors in real time.
4) no. I have a follow setting of "3" and have had zero issues with regular highway traffic and thousands of miles of autopilot driving. The only time there is some risk is if the car in front of you panic brakes but in many or most situations the driver might not fare any better if autopilot were off.
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Unintended acceleration is very serious, that's why my wife reported the incident immediately, hoping Tesla would look into it. As a MX owner, the purpose of my post is to share my experience and caution MX owner when using AP. After two years delay in delivering Model X, I feel like Tesla still rushes MX to the market. My MX was recalled for the 3rd row seat after only a month delivery; Last week, glass bubbles appear in the roof window and needs to be replaced; Delivery specialists over promise the MX features due to lack of training... As a Tesla investor myself, Tesla is a great company, but seems it has too many things on the plate at the same time: Model 3 announcement and Solar City (I'm also a Solar City customer)bid. Maybe Tesla should really focus on setting the right expectations to the clients and deliver solid product consistently.
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Epymian said: ?

I must say that I am a bit surprised at the scorn some folks heap in this forum on anyone that dares criticize anything Tesla. I think this discourages some from sharing their concerns and experiences and diminishes the value of learning more about the dynamics or quirks of these amazing cars.

I am curious about the failure of adaptive cruise control in this case. The situation described does not really apply to beta auto steer but rather to a technology that has been out for a long time. Most cars with adaptive cruise would sense the car slowing down ahead and adjust the speed accordingly.

My previous Audi SQ5 would beep if I was not braking in response to the car in front of me slowing down rapidly, and then apply the brakes to slow me down if I did not react fast enough. Great system except when someone slowed to turn right off the road and I was slipping by them on the left. This was not even with cruise on and simply a safety feature of that car. With cruise on, it would adjust the distance automatically based on speed and brake hard if the car in front of me did so.

So far my MX has not slowed me down when I have been distracted and someone braked in front of me suddenly (cruise and auto steer off). I wonder if this is even a feature or if it has softer settings than in the Audi. The adaptive cruise in my car has worked well however and adjusted the distance flawlessly on the highway and in stop and go traffic.

So some questions here:

1. Does the MX brake if the car in front slows suddenly but your cruise and AP are not activated?
2. Is the distance setting of 5 mean 5 car lengths at any speed (fixed distance) or is it a 5 second gap at whatever speed you are going? Or something more arcane?
3. Is it possible that the sensors were dirty on Micquing's car and would this make a difference?
4. Is there a glitch in the algorithms for detection of cars slowing ahead and has anyone else had this problem?

S
Click to expand...

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commasign said: ?

Yes, but to set the speed you actually have to be traveling at that speed or use a positive offset or that has to be the posted speed limit. There is no knob or number pad or other interface option with which to "set" the autopilot speed to be 90mph.
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That's not entirely true. You can set the speed to be your speed, and then you can full press the tacc stalk up several times to increase the speed setting by 5mph each time. If you're going 65 it only takes 3 full presses up to reach 80.
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electricity said: ?

It's easy. When owners post we look for a solution to a problem. You dont want a solution, you just want to let us know how bad AP is , in bad English from California on your 4th post.
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Hey what's wrong with posting from California!
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I've had AP active on my P85D since it was first introduced. I have put over 20k miles on the car since then and use AP fairly often. When the feature first became active, like lots of other owners, I did a few stupid things with it (like treat it as if it were an autonomous car). Since then, I use AP as it is intended and I've NEVER had a problem. That doesn't mean that AP works perfectly, it just means that I am always ready to take total control of the vehicle and I'm always aware of what AP is doing. I don't let it get me so far into a situation that I can't recover.

It's actually fairly simple to ensure that AP doesn't turn into a problem but people want to misuse the system.
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Epymian said: ?

I must say that I am a bit surprised at the scorn some folks heap in this forum on anyone that dares criticize anything Tesla. I think this discourages some from sharing their concerns and experiences and diminishes the value of learning more about the dynamics or quirks of these amazing cars.
Click to expand...

It is not just "anyone". A new member with little post history starting a new thread that heaps on non-constructive criticism (rather than suggesting ways for improvement, or asking about ways to avoid a similar situation, it suggests Tesla should have not released the feature at all) raises alarm bells. In this thread, we already have two known Tesla/TSLA naysayers chiming in also. It would be completely different if the comment was written differently and from a well known member.

Note: I'm not saying the OP is not an owner, but that he just happened to fit a profile that draws suspicion.
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So you decide to try out this new feature, with which you apparently completely failed to familiarize yourself, with your whole family in the car and set to 80 MPH? The problem is Human v2016 which is still in BETA. I'd opt for autopilot 7.1 but I don't get a choice. I want a recall of Human v2016 right now. I'm sick of having to fend off the severe safety hazard they present.
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proven said: ?

That's not entirely true. You can set the speed to be your speed, and then you can full press the tacc stalk up several times to increase the speed setting by 5mph each time. If you're going 65 it only takes 3 full presses up to reach 80.
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Yes, that's true too. But my main point was if the OP was already cruising at 80mph (since he was already driving in autopilot for some time), then it would be impossible for the car to "continue to accelerate to 80mph" towards a slow car in front. If you're already at a certain speed you can't accelerate further to maintain that speed... because... physics. While dramatic sounding it's scientifically wrong and prone to misinterpretation by the media (which was my other main point). So this fact eliminates the possibility of unintended acceleration.

Not slowing fast enough is a known limitation (or reality) of the current autopilot system and can be mitigated by increasing the follow distance and just being an attentive cautious driver. But the accusation of unintended acceleration isn't supported by the OP's description of what happened.
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My 2 cents:

I was told initially during the test drive that the numbers 1-7 are car lengths but at pick-up were told it was seconds based on the speed at which the car is going. Full disclosure - haven't read the manual. But, my experience with the car seems to indicate the later.

In bumper to bumper traffic I found that anything over 3 yielded just enough room for crazies to cut in between the cars and actually make it difficult for me as a driver to react let alone AP. So 2 works really well in those situations.

A wise man once told me - "Always operate with the assumption that people are genuine until they prove you wrong; life will be peaceful"
I think a few posters here can take that advice to heart.
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OP: I just got back from a 4800 mile trip and used AutoPilot for most of the highway miles. The only time I saw what you described was when I was catching up with someone on a curve and the car in my lane was not seen by the AP hardware because it wasn't physically in front of me. Were you on a straight road of a curved road? If it was straight, then you might have a hardware problem and you should have the car checked immediately.
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Ryan MF said: ?

All the other systems (MBz, etc) that have been tested to perform worse do not say anything about being in test development.
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Also, the other systems that I am aware of don't advertise themselves as in Beta. Which other systems are you aware of that say specifically that they are in beta - and have the drivers essentially beta testers?

One idea to improve this is to have the hazard lights flash while using the beta features - this way is warns other drivers.
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stopcrazypp said: ?

It is not just "anyone". A new member with little post history starting a new thread that heaps on non-constructive criticism (rather than suggesting ways for improvement, or asking about ways to avoid a similar situation, it suggests Tesla should have not released the feature at all) raises alarm bells. In this thread, we already have two known Tesla/TSLA naysayers chiming in also. It would be completely different if the comment was written differently and from a well known member.

Note: I'm not saying the OP is not an owner, but that he just happened to fit a profile that draws suspicion.
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Solid post....I'd add that OP has 10 posts to date; everyone of them to complain about something about the vehicle: the glass, the AP, etc.

Doesn't add up.....
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electricity said: ?

I dont believe you have a Tesla.
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Since you accused the poster of lying about owning a Tesla, you may want to check out their subsequent post.

So funny to have the typical knee-jerk reactions here: you don't own Tesla, you are a short, you work for "big oil", you hate polar bears and don't care that global warming is killing them. The shoot the messenger has become so predictable here, it has become a parody of itself.

OP, sorry you have to face this here, thanks for posting and hope you get resolution rather than people accusing you of lying.
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Drivin said: ?

Also, the other systems that I am aware of don't advertise themselves as in Beta. Which other systems are you aware of that say specifically that they are in beta - and have the drivers essentially beta testers?

One idea to improve this is to have the hazard lights flash while using the beta features - this way is warns other drivers.
Click to expand...

Have the hazard lights flash? Really?

Maybe Tesla is a little more honest about their system than other companies. My experience is that it works as well as most others. An exception would be blind spot detection where I think others are better. Maybe Tesla should remove the Beta label to make you happy. Then again, when have you used Tesla AP?
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Drivin said: ?

Since you accused the poster of lying about owning a Tesla, you may want to check out their subsequent post.

So funny to have the typical knee-jerk reactions here: you don't own Tesla, you are a short, you work for "big oil", you hate polar bears and don't care that global warming is killing them. The shoot the messenger has become so predictable here, it has become a parody of itself.

OP, sorry you have to face this here, thanks for posting and hope you get resolution rather than people accusing you of lying.
Click to expand...

Not sure why you're so worked up about this. The fact of the matter is that there is a LOT of short selling activity on Tesla and a good deal of the recent media coverage actually references posts from forums like this. I have no vested interest in the company other than the fact that I've got a car coming in the next 6-9 months and I'd like to see them succeed, and even I can smell trolls. Like others have said, he's a new member and he does nothing but complain, with apparently no desire to actually find a solution. Doesn't seem genuine and I don't blame others for saying the same.
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SR22pilot said: ?

Unfortunately there are so many people who have joined just to put down Tesla that it has become difficult to trust that what they are saying is true.
Click to expand...

Accusing new posters of lying is not the way to build a community of trust.

That just gives the new posters a reason to bail or a reason to start building their ignore list.

Welcome to mine!
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Drivin said: ?

Accusing new posters of lying is not the way to build a community of trust.

That just gives the new posters a reason to bail or a reason to start building their ignore list.

Welcome to mine!
Click to expand...

I never accused the OP of lying. I explained why, unfortunately, people have become suspicious of new TMC members. Read my posts. I did question why you are on TMC which you didn't answer.
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micqing said: ?

I got Model X 90D in March. About two weeks later, I drove the X to Vegas with my wife and two little girls. After we got on the freeway, I started to use autopilot. The weather condition was great. I set the autopilot at the speed of 80 mph with 5 cars distance. I was very cautious with this Autopilot technology, especially my whole family was in the car, so I kept my eyes on it. It was very amazing when the car drove itself on the freeway at the very beginning, but not too long, I saw the car in front of me was slowing down, but the X continued to accelerate to 80 mph, even though it detected the front car! In the instrument panel, the front car became red and warning beeping sound alarmed, but no sign of auto braking. I immediately brake the car, and fortunately enough to avoid crashing into the front car. It all happened within seconds. My wife called Tesla customer service to report this incident a few minutes later. The service rep on the phone seemed not too surprised and told me he had a similar situation while driving his own S.

We paid $2500 to add autopilot feature, but it's Beta version. When you use beta software in your computer, your computer might crash, not a big deal, you can always restart the computer and uninstall the beta software. But, when the Autopilot is beta, and if it crashes, there is no restart button... Is it Tesla too soon to add autopilot? I think it is.
Click to expand...

I'll have to do a test, but I think that type of situation can occur if you are pushing the accelerator down with your foot far enough to override the TACC.
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buckerine said: ?

he fact of the matter is that there is a LOT of short selling activity on Tesla and a good deal of the recent media coverage actually references posts from forums like this.
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Certainly all investors are interested in how well experimental systems like this work. For some, it is a driver to purchase the car. The NTSHA could decide to restrict or ban AutoPilot because of danger to others on the road. The loss of revenue and the need to refund up to 60 million would be material to investors, long or short.
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X Yes? said: ?

Certainly all investors are interested in how well experimental systems like this work. For some, it is a driver to purchase the car. The NTSHA could decide to restrict or ban AutoPilot because of danger to others on the road. The loss of revenue and the need to refund up to 60 million would be material to investors, long or short.
Click to expand...

Perhaps so but I expect it would need to be shown that the system works less well (significantly so) than those from other manufacturers. i haven't seen anything that indicates that is true. Reading the Distronic Plus manual shows the same limitations such as missing stop vehicles or lateral intrusions.
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SR22pilot said: ?

Perhaps so but I expect it would need to be shown that the system works less well (significantly so) than those from other manufacturers. i haven't seen anything that indicates that is true. Reading the Distronic Plus manual shows the same limitations such as missing stop vehicles or lateral intrusions.
Click to expand...

The most serious issues are vehicles running into the back of others, not seeing obstacles in front or in blind spot, or running off the road. This type of failure should be reported by all manufacturers to the safety agencies. The consumer could then get a sense how all systems are working on the road.

If the auto braking systems are not reliable, it's a hazard to the person in front of you. It's more than just an individual making a personal judgement on the risk of new technology.
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X Yes? said: ?

The most serious issues are vehicles running into the back of others, not seeing obstacles in front or in blind spot, or running off the road. This type of failure should be reported by all manufacturers to the safety agencies. The consumer could then get a sense how all systems are working on the road.

If the auto braking systems are not reliable, it's a hazard to the person in front of you. It's more than just an individual making a personal judgement on the risk of new technology.
Click to expand...

From a Distronic Plus manual:

DISTRONIC PLUS does not react to: � people or animals � stationary obstacles on the road, e.g.
stopped or parked vehicles � oncoming and crossing traffic As a result, DISTRONIC PLUS may neither give warnings nor intervene in such situations.

DISTRONIC PLUS cannot always clearly identify other road users and complex traffic situations.
In such cases, DISTRONIC PLUS may: � give an unnecessary warning and then brake the vehicle
� neither give a warning nor intervene � accelerate unexpectedly There is a risk of an accident.

WARNING

DISTRONIC PLUS brakes your vehicle with up to 40% of the maximum braking force. If this braking force is insufficient, DISTRONIC PLUS warns you visually and audibly. There is a risk of an accident.?

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SR22pilot said: ?

From a Distronic Plus manual:

DISTRONIC PLUS does not react to: � people or animals � stationary obstacles on the road, e.g.
stopped or parked vehicles � oncoming and crossing traffic As a result, DISTRONIC PLUS may neither give warnings nor intervene in such situations.

DISTRONIC PLUS cannot always clearly identify other road users and complex traffic situations.
In such cases, DISTRONIC PLUS may: � give an unnecessary warning and then brake the vehicle
� neither give a warning nor intervene � accelerate unexpectedly There is a risk of an accident.

WARNING

DISTRONIC PLUS brakes your vehicle with up to 40% of the maximum braking force. If this braking force is insufficient, DISTRONIC PLUS warns you visually and audibly. There is a risk of an accident.?
Click to expand...

Yeas, all that may be true, but at least it's not beta. It just, you know, doesn't work if you have other cars, people, animals or objects on the road. But it is not beta!!! /s
�

Seriously though, the conversation is getting a bit hostile for no good reason. Let's not see a Koch Brother's sleeper agent in everyone who takes issue with something Tesla.

Can we just agree, that:

Tesla's AP system is not foolproof, perfect, Level 4 autonomous, but

Tesla never claimed it to be, however

according to independent tests (like Motor Trend's) it is by far better than anything else currently on the market, so

it would be stupid to force Tesla to disable it and let MB, BMW, VW and others keep selling their systems with disclaimers and performance like posted above

which doesn't mean that the OP could not have a HW or SW malfunction, or

find that a Level 2,5ish system is not trustworthy enough for him personally

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micqing said: ?

Here is my Model X
Click to expand...

I still don't believe you. I can smell internet trolls from a long distance, and you are one.
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electricity said: ?

I still don't believe you. I can smell internet trolls from a long distance, and you are one.
Click to expand...

I really don't want to be playing detective here, but the garage door that is shown in the picture that the OP posted of his car is this thread is not the same one that is in the background of the pictures that he posted about his window bubble issues. Model X Roof Window Bubbles One has a divided light and the other does not. One has rails that are drilled with a bunch of holes and the other is pristine. Not sure what that all means, but worth pointing out.
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[QUOTE="micqing, post: 1622714, member: 50182"... My wife called Tesla customer service to report this incident a few minutes later. The service rep on the phone seemed not too surprised and told me he had a similar situation while driving his own S...[/QUOTE]

Hmmm ...
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thegruf said: ?

[QUOTE="micqing, post: 1622714, member: 50182"... My wife called Tesla customer service to report this incident a few minutes later. The service rep on the phone seemed not too surprised and told me he had a similar situation while driving his own S...
Click to expand...

Hmmm ...[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Hmmmmm ???
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electricity said: ?

Hmmm ...
Click to expand...

Exactly. Hmmmmm ???
Click to expand...

Had the same thought. I have not yet met a Tesla service rep (or any Tesla employee actually) that actually owns a Tesla. I'm sure some do, but it's extremely rare.
�

I'm a little confused.

You got the car in March, and then two weeks later you tried the autopilot feature on the freeway. You had what amounts to a technical failure because it should never do that you described. The service rap clearly gave you bad information to anyone experienced with the either TACC or AP on the Model S/X.

So what has your experience been like with Autopilot since then? It's been a long time since march.

Keep in mind that Autopilot is just a combination of features, and that not all these features are in beta.

In your case the TACC element is too blame, and the TACC element is not in beta at all. It's just adaptive cruise control and there isn't anything overly new/complicated about it. Lots, and lots of cars have adaptive cruise control.

Your adaptive cruise control simply didn't function correctly.
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commasign said: ?

Had the same thought. I have not yet met a Tesla service rep (or any Tesla employee actually) that actually owns a Tesla. I'm sure some do, but it's extremely rare.
Click to expand...

I know one in Boca that told me owns a Model S. It may be a bit more common than what we realize. I would happily work at a Tesla store to be honest.
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Infinite said: ?

I was told initially during the test drive that the numbers 1-7 are car lengths but at pick-up were told it was seconds based on the speed at which the car is going. Full disclosure - haven't read the manual. But, my experience with the car seems to indicate the later.
Click to expand...

I'm quite certain that the follow distance increments are time, not car lengths. Each number is about 1/2 second or slightly more as far as I can tell. It's easy to see this as the follow distance increases with speed keeping the follow time constant.
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X Yes? said: ?

If the auto braking systems are not reliable, it's a hazard to the person in front of you. It's more than just an individual making a personal judgement on the risk of new technology.
Click to expand...

If you don't understand that the AEBS doesn't actually prevent a crash, and that auto-pilot isn't designed to be used in stop-and-go traffic, then you really have no basis for discussing the limitations...
�

micqing said: ?

I got Model X 90D in March. About two weeks later, I drove the X to Vegas with my wife and two little girls. After we got on the freeway, I started to use autopilot. The weather condition was great. I set the autopilot at the speed of 80 mph with 5 cars distance. I was very cautious with this Autopilot technology, especially my whole family was in the car, so I kept my eyes on it. It was very amazing when the car drove itself on the freeway at the very beginning, but not too long, I saw the car in front of me was slowing down, but the X continued to accelerate to 80 mph, even though it detected the front car! In the instrument panel, the front car became red and warning beeping sound alarmed, but no sign of auto braking. I immediately brake the car, and fortunately enough to avoid crashing into the front car. It all happened within seconds. My wife called Tesla customer service to report this incident a few minutes later. The service rep on the phone seemed not too surprised and told me he had a similar situation while driving his own S.

We paid $2500 to add autopilot feature, but it's Beta version. When you use beta software in your computer, your computer might crash, not a big deal, you can always restart the computer and uninstall the beta software. But, when the Autopilot is beta, and if it crashes, there is no restart button... Is it Tesla too soon to add autopilot? I think it is.
Click to expand...

@micqing - you should correct the title of your post or request the mods so it correctly reflects your issue. From your post it appears the issue you described is with TACC and not AutoSteer function.
It is likely that the car in front that you believe was slowing down was actually stationary even though from a distance you may perceive it to be slowing down. In which case, TACC would not be able to function correctly when your vehicle is over 50mph.
�

Before reading this thread, I wrote a paragraph in an email today. Here were my summary feelings about the subject:

"Autopilot is amazing, but Tesla changes how it operates and it is getting more cranky if you don�t hold/move the steering wheel properly to indicate that you are paying attention. It�s sudden incorrect actions at times can be scary. Overall it makes driving less stressful and that has been appreciated. It will take a future vehicle to get it right..."

What I didn't mention is how my Model X may occasionally speed up or more often, slow down as the radar is being fooled by vehicles in other lanes on curves or road elevation changes on hills. It does keep this driver alert, even after 6 months of enjoying the "beta" feature.
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Drivin said: ?

That just gives the new posters a reason to bail or a reason to start building their ignore list.

Welcome to mine!
Click to expand...

The pinnacle of TMC membership is making it onto this ignore list. It took me over 3000 posts. For those of you reaching it sooner, I applaud you.
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I used AP for the first time yesterday, the second day owning my Model X. I was nervous at first, but quickly warmed up to the feature. The only real scary moments were when I passed transport trucks (fear based solely on what I've read about poor experiences on TMC). Whenever I passed vehicles towing boats or small trailers AP forced me to take the wheel and I noticed that the car didn't recognize the trailing boat or trailers.

Otherwise it was a lot of fun. I watched a bunch of people filming me with no hands on the wheel.
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JenniferQ said: ?

Even without AP engaged, the TACC would slow the car. What the OP is describing (if true) is TACC behavior, not Autosteer.
Click to expand...

TACC activates only when AP is enabled (blue cruise control icon on upper right part of sceeen). The part that auto breaks without AP is AEB and it seems it just slows the vehicle down by 15MPH doesn't necessarily apply full brakes in all situations.. Which is confusing and scary
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krazineurons said: ?

TACC activates only when AP is enabled (blue cruise control icon on upper right part of sceeen). The part that auto breaks without AP is AEB and it seems it just slows the vehicle down by 15MPH doesn't necessarily apply full brakes in all situations.. Which is confusing and scary
Click to expand...

When people talk about AP they generally mean pulling back twice on the stalk so that it activates both TACC and Lane Steering.

When people say they just have TACC enabled they mean they pulled the stalk back once. Where the lane steering component isn't enabled.

I tend to mostly use TACC only, and not the full AP. If I crashed in TACC only mode Tesla would say AP wasn't enabled.

TACC was available before Autopilot was released so it's generally considered to be separate even though it's a component of it.

AEB isn't supposed to activate until a crash is unavoidable. To really test it you pretty much have to crash into something. It's only a crash mitigation system, and won't slow you all the way down.
�

Something doesn't add up. This has never happened to me in over 10k miles of AP driving. In fact I never had any issues in highway situations although the highest speed I have used AP is 75mph. I would NEVER use it above 75. Also noticed that at 70mph on any semi-decent highway it drives amazingly well perfectly centered reacting to every event around you very well. If someone cuts you close, no issues. It pulls back nicely without any jerky maneuvers. If someone hard brakes in front, no issues.

I am sorry, I can't believe OP here.

I will not be surprised if we see new topics with more sensational titles like:

"my Tesla suddenly took a U turn and went in opposite direction."
�

For Drivin and X Yes, who complain about beta. Just think about it - your favorite auto makers who make there own versions of AP isn't even half as good as Tesla, but they don't call it as beta. Perhaps in software parlance they should be calling it as PoC or unit testing.
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Mark Z said: ?

how my Model X may occasionally speed up or more often, slow down as the radar is being fooled by vehicles in other lanes on curves or road elevation changes on hills. It does keep this driver alert, even after 6 months of enjoying the "beta" feature.
Click to expand...

Years, and years ago I asked a range rover dealer why they didn't have the adaptive cruise control feature on any of the inventory vehicles. He told me straight up that they didn't because they constantly got fooled by vehicles in other lanes on curves. So they thought it was a bigger danger than it was worth.

I think that's partly why I expected it with the Tesla, but it doesn't happen nearly as much as I feared. It does occasionally happen, but it's orders of magnitudes better than what older adaptive cruise control systems did. Also keep in mind that the TACC portion of autopilot is not a beta feature. It wasn't even a beta feature before autopilot was released. No where in the manual does it say TACC is beta.
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mkjayakumar said: ?

For Drivin and X Yes, who complain about beta. Just think about it - your favorite auto makers who make there own versions of AP isn't even half as good as Tesla, but they don't call it as beta. Perhaps in software parlance they should be calling it as PoC or unit testing.
Click to expand...

They only call Autopilot beta because certain components of it are in beta. The user manual (at least with the S) tells you which components are in beta.

The TACC is not in beta
The Lane Steering of Autopilot is in beta (because they plan on enhancing it)
The AEB is not in beta (you get this without even paying for AP)
The Summons is in beta.

I would argue that the ALL the doors in the Model X are in beta even though the manual makes no such claims.
�

Probably said before, but if your foot is just a litle bit on the accelerator pedal, it won't brake. Kind'a stupid but......

micqing said: ?

I got Model X 90D in March. About two weeks later, I drove the X to Vegas with my wife and two little girls. After we got on the freeway, I started to use autopilot. The weather condition was great. I set the autopilot at the speed of 80 mph with 5 cars distance. I was very cautious with this Autopilot technology, especially my whole family was in the car, so I kept my eyes on it. It was very amazing when the car drove itself on the freeway at the very beginning, but not too long, I saw the car in front of me was slowing down, but the X continued to accelerate to 80 mph, even though it detected the front car! In the instrument panel, the front car became red and warning beeping sound alarmed, but no sign of auto braking. I immediately brake the car, and fortunately enough to avoid crashing into the front car. It all happened within seconds. My wife called Tesla customer service to report this incident a few minutes later. The service rep on the phone seemed not too surprised and told me he had a similar situation while driving his own S.

We paid $2500 to add autopilot feature, but it's Beta version. When you use beta software in your computer, your computer might crash, not a big deal, you can always restart the computer and uninstall the beta software. But, when the Autopilot is beta, and if it crashes, there is no restart button... Is it Tesla too soon to add autopilot? I think it is.
Click to expand...

�

ecarfan said: ?

I am relieved to see that you are located in Washington DC and not in my area because I do not want to be driving on the freeway at 70 and be followed by a Tesla owner who has their TACC distance set at 2. That is far too close. If the car in front of you had to make an emergency stop, by the time you or your TACC could react your frunk would be compressed into the trunk of the car in front of you.
Click to expand...

Do you all even realize what 2 or 7 is? It's NOT car lengths - read your manual. It's TIME not distance.
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ecarfan said: ?

I am relieved to see that you are located in Washington DC and not in my area because I do not want to be driving on the freeway at 70 and be followed by a Tesla owner who has their TACC distance set at 2. That is far too close. If the car in front of you had to make an emergency stop, by the time you or your TACC could react your frunk would be compressed into the trunk of the car in front of you.
Click to expand...

Btw just cuz you were so nice about your post and so polite I would be thrilled to drive to your area in AP
�

JohnSnowNW said: ?

If you don't understand that the AEBS doesn't actually prevent a crash, and that auto-pilot isn't designed to be used in stop-and-go traffic, then you really have no basis for discussing the limitations...
Click to expand...

Mark Z said: ?

What I didn't mention is how my Model X may occasionally speed up or more often, slow down as the radar is being fooled by vehicles in other lanes on curves or road elevation changes on hills. It does keep this driver alert, even after 6 months of enjoying the "beta" feature.
Click to expand...

What is the point of activating this system again?

SSD420 said: ?

Otherwise it was a lot of fun. I watched a bunch of people filming me with no hands on the wheel.
Click to expand...

No comment necessary on this one.

krazineurons said: ?

TACC activates only when AP is enabled (blue cruise control icon on upper right part of sceeen). The part that auto breaks without AP is AEB and it seems it just slows the vehicle down by 15MPH doesn't necessarily apply full brakes in all situations.. Which is confusing and scary
Click to expand...

Certainly very scary for the car the AutoPilot "driver" is following.

S4WRXTTCS said: ?

To really test it you pretty much have to crash into something.
Click to expand...

I'll certainly be more alert to Tesla drivers following closely behind.
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X Yes? said: ?

What is the point of activating this system again?

No comment necessary on this one.

Certainly very scary for the car the AutoPilot "driver" is following.

I'll certainly be more alert to Tesla drivers following closely behind.
Click to expand...

What is the point in only posting negative or flippant comments, while claiming to have interest in purchasing a Model X?
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mkjayakumar said: ?

For Drivin and X Yes, who complain about beta. Just think about it - your favorite auto makers who make there own versions of AP isn't even half as good as Tesla, but they don't call it as beta. Perhaps in software parlance they should be calling it as PoC or unit testing.
Click to expand...

Tesla does get the bragging rights of being first. But at what cost to their customers and shareholders?

Cadillac delays CT6 Super Cruise to avoid Tesla controversy [Updated]

Even GM sees the potential liability of these systems in their current state of development.
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JohnSnowNW said: ?

What is the point in only posting negative of flippant comments, while claiming to have interest in purchasing a Model X?
Click to expand...

What is the point of defending AutoPilot, when you are not using the system and driving a Leaf?
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X Yes? said: ?

What is the point of defending AutoPilot, when you are not using the system and driving a Leaf?
Click to expand...

Because people are mistaken in their blame of auto-pilot...seemingly to a point that they must have ulterior motives. I would like to have auto-pilot on my Model 3...so countering the absurdity, and willful ignorance, would be personally beneficial.
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JohnSnowNW said: ?

Because people are mistaken in their blame of auto-pilot...seemingly to a point that they must have ulterior motives. I would like to have auto-pilot on my Model 3...so countering the absurdity, and willful ignorance, would be personally beneficial.
Click to expand...

Maybe it will be fully developed and safe for all drivers at that time. Crashes and user comments don't give me confidence in any of these systems. I would expect that the NTSHA and NSB are evaluating safety data on all the similar systems on the road. Tesla, and other manufacturers are assuming their drivers accept liability for the systems. What about the safety of others on the road?
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X Yes? said: ?

Maybe it will be fully developed and safe for all drivers at that time. Crashes and user comments don't give me confidence in any of these systems. I would expect that the NTSHA and NSB are evaluating safety data on all the similar systems on the road. Tesla, and other manufacturers are assuming their drivers accept liability for the systems. What about the safety of others on the road?
Click to expand...

Distracted driving accidents occur without driver assist features, everyday. These systems would have to be proven less reliable than vehicles without them. So, your concerns seem to be unfounded, or at least there is no evidence for them.

That said, your post history reveals less concern about autopilot and more about ways of negatively spinning anything related to Tesla. Just my observation, of course.
�

JohnSnowNW said: ?

Distracted driving accidents occur without driver assist features, everyday. These systems would have to be proven less reliable than vehicles without them. So, your concerns seem to be unfounded, or at least there is no evidence for them.

That said, your post history reveals less concern about autopilot, and more about ways of negatively spinning anything related to Tesla. Just my observation, of course.
Click to expand...

Yes John, and your post history shows whatever the concern, whether the facts are in, or not, you side with the Tesla infallibility theory.
Some people love to argue, I know I do, so good thing there is a forum to vent.
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X Yes? said: ?

Yes John, and your post history shows whatever the concern, whether the facts are in, or not, you side with the Tesla infallibility theory.
Some people love to argue, I know I do, so good thing there is a forum to vent.
Click to expand...

Well, it's easy to side with something when logic drives the opinion. Argument is fine, commenting simply to inflame, or antagonize, is not. Which is one of the reasons you've been banned, and I have not.
�

@JohnSnowNW you just posted 4 replies in a row without quoting anyone. We have no context to know who or what you were replying to.

In short, you know nothing about quoting JonSnowNW!
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X Yes? said: ?

Tesla does get the bragging rights of being first. But at what cost to their customers and shareholders?

Cadillac delays CT6 Super Cruise to avoid Tesla controversy [Updated]

Even GM sees the potential liability of these systems in their current state of development.
Click to expand...

Most auto companies are working on similar systems but in their labs. Lab testing can only simulate a certain percentage of scenarios. A good comparison is number of miles of autonomous miles Google had collected versus the AP miles Tesla has collected. Tesla's approach is definitely riskier but will ultimately yield more solid product and much sooner than the competition. The problem with Tesla's approach is not the software it's the drivers who take it for autonomous and forget to keep control.
�

The issue I see with Autopilot is that it's good enough to lull the driver into believing that it's infallible. If you've done 800 miles with flawless AP driving, you're going to start to expect that the next 800 will be the same. I continually remind myself that this isn't the case. Previous iterations of driver assist features (standard cruise control, then TACC, for instance) were not good enough to successfully trust on even a single drive. You'd have to stay aware and use them as they were intended. AP is closing the gap on autonomy and therefore it fools some drivers into allowing themselves to become distracted.

X Yes? said: ?

What is the point of activating this system again?
Click to expand...

Silly argument. What was the point of cruise control if you have to disengage it? What's the point of autocomplete if it messes up some words? What's the point of voice transcription if you have to go back and edit sometimes? What's the point of life preservers if they occasionally fail? What's the point of seatbelts when people still get killed wearing them? What's the point of a deer fence when deer can still sometimes jump them?

The point is that all of these things, and most things we've created in life, are there to assist us. They make it better, even if they're not perfect. We humans are required to mind the gap.
�

ohmman said: ?

The issue I see with Autopilot is that it's good enough to lull the driver into believing that it's infallible. If you've done 800 miles with flawless AP driving, you're going to start to expect that the next 800 will be the same. I continually remind myself that this isn't the case. Previous iterations of driver assist features (standard cruise control, then TACC, for instance) were not good enough to successfully trust on even a single drive. You'd have to stay aware and use them as they were intended. AP is closing the gap on autonomy and therefore it fools some drivers into allowing themselves to become distracted.
Click to expand...

Gotta give you a like here.
�

ohmman said: ?

If you've done 800 miles with flawless AP driving, you're going to start to expect that the next 800 will be the same.
Click to expand...

ohmman said: ?

What was the point of cruise control if you have to disengage it?
Click to expand...

As I get lulled into complacency and stop paying close attention, I've had the same thought.

ohmman said: ?

What's the point of seatbelts when people still get killed wearing them? What's the point of a deer fence when deer can still sometimes jump them?
Click to expand...

These are systems that are universally accepted as furthering driver safety. AutoPilot and other similar systems are now getting the scrutiny they deserve to see if drivers and others on the road, are safer or not.

ohmman said: ?

The point is that all of these things, and most things we've created in life, are there to assist us. They make it better, even if they're not perfect. We humans are required to mind the gap.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, the You Tube videos and accidents show not all driver are as prudent as you claim to be.
�

I have used Autopilot on Interstates many times. In all cases, when the car ahead slows (even outside the distance of 3 cars setting), my X slows. You may want to take note of the "offset" speed setting. In the settings, make sure the offset is set to "0" mpg limit. I keep mine there, since it tends to over-ride the cruise speed setting and tries to accelerate to the off-set additional setting. So if you are driving on a road for 70 mpm and the Offset speed is set to +10 Mph, then the X will try to get to 80mph, and so on. Mine scared to hell out of me -- not expecting the acceleration, so I would suggest keeping it at "0".
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ohmman said: ?

The issue I see with Autopilot is that it's good enough to lull the driver into believing that it's infallible. If you've done 800 miles with flawless AP driving, you're going to start to expect that the next 800 will be the same. I continually remind myself that this isn't the case. Previous iterations of driver assist features (standard cruise control, then TACC, for instance) were not good enough to successfully trust on even a single drive. You'd have to stay aware and use them as they were intended. AP is closing the gap on autonomy and therefore it fools some drivers into allowing themselves to become distracted.
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Couldn't agree with you more there.

I have been a avid hater of cruise control to the point that I wouldn't engage it even on fairly long trips. Even someone like me am using AP more often that I thought I would. I am tending to engage AP when I know I am going to be slightly distracted, like when changing music or on a phone call - just as a backup safety measure, activities that I have been perfectly capable of doing on a stick shift for the last 15 years. AP buys me additional peace of mind wherein I am viewing AP as a technology that will help if I slip up and am really not the other way round. So, maybe my expectations of AP are much lower than what many others in this forum have.
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Infinite said: ?

AP buys me additional peace of mind wherein I am viewing AP as a technology that will help if I slip up and am really not the other way round.
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Indeed, that's correct. AP is watching for when the driver messes up. I'd also add that the driver is watching for when AP messes up. Neither AP nor driver is 100% effective by itself/herself, yet the combination of both working together is safer than either alone.
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X Yes? said: ?

I'll certainly be more alert to Tesla drivers following closely behind.
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You seem to lack the basic understanding of how these driver assist technologies work. I would suggest going back and doing some research on adaptive cruise control, automatic emergency braking before making any decision on your next car. It doesn't matter if it's a Tesla, BMW, Audi, Subaru, etc. A lot of these systems are very similar from one car to the next.

Read the fine print, and test drive some of them before you start judging them.
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ohmman said: ?

AP is closing the gap on autonomy and therefore it fools some drivers into allowing themselves to become distracted.
.
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This is really what it comes down to, and the other points you made.

The problem is we really only have one direction to go. We have to accept the risk that people are going to be fooled because we already have too many people too distracted even without these driver assist technologies. Whether we like it or not we're being pushed to incorporating more and more driver assist features that cover more and more of the driving tasks.

Even if the industry took a breather the consumer won't. The consumer will continue to be more and more consumed with their self interest and what's on their phone. Kids these days grow up with a screen in their hand, and I'm not sure they can function without it.

It's funny to see people fear a Model S/X behind them when the reality is you stand a FAR greater chance of being hit by someone in a much older car without these technologies. If they bothered looking at the statistics they'd see massive reductions when automatic braking systems are used.

We can pretend all we want that this is an Autopilot issue when it's not. I guarantee you there are a lot of owners of other cars that have a false sense of what their adaptive cruise control, AEB, etc systems are capable of. Where they aren't being as vigilant as they would be without those systems. Humans tend to be more risky when safety features are incorporated. Like how it's been shown that drivers will get closer to a bicyclist that's wearing a helmet versus one that isn't. The driver perceives less risk and gets closer even though they don't consciously do it. We certainly don't want to go back to not wearing a helmet anymore than we want to give up are little assist driving buddies.
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I'll be picking up my XP90DL in Chicago this coming Wednesday, but my experience driving my Ford Explorer with Adaptive Cruise Control shows that it is EXTREMELY reliable, and has so far reacted flawlessly in all traffic situations. (The lane keeping system is a bit primitive and sluggish, though.) Keep in mind that ACC does not function below 25 mph, so there's no "stop-and-go" functionality. However, it DOES brake hard when approaching a vehicle moving significantly slower.
I realize that may not always be the case for everyone, and that the Tesla AP system may not yet be as robust, but I can say that a driver assist system CAN be very safe and reliable. As long as drivers realize that you MUST keep vigilant when driving, it can only make driving safer. It's like having a co-pilot. The more "eyes" on the road, the safer it has to be. The statistics are plain and undisputed on this.
For those who worry and fret every time there is an incident involving AP, I have to ask... How many accidents do you think are occurring during the same time frame that DO NOT involve an AP system?
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mkjayakumar said: ?

For Drivin and X Yes, who complain about beta. Just think about it - your favorite auto makers who make there own versions of AP isn't even half as good as Tesla, but they don't call it as beta. Perhaps in software parlance they should be calling it as PoC or unit testing.
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I think what you're missing is that other manufacturers chose not to make their semi-autonomous systems behave like a Level 3 system.

That's a choice on their part, not a technical limitation.

Tesla chose to implement common hardware in a way that every other manufacturer chose not to.

I think we can clearly see now which is the more responsible path.
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KZKZ said: ?

I think what you're missing is that other manufacturers chose not to make their semi-autonomous systems behave like a Level 3 system.
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Tesla's system behaves as a level 2 system. Not sure where this level 3 stuff comes from. It is squarely in level 2, both in terms of capabilities and actual operation.
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BigBlueX said: ?

For those who worry and fret every time there is an incident involving AP, I have to ask... How many accidents do you think are occurring during the same time frame that DO NOT involve an AP system?
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Elon has stated that the rate of airbag deployments is halved when using Autopilot. One must be careful with statistics, of course. You can't just count accidents when Autopilot is on or off, because most people engage Autopilot only in the safest situations. Best to compare the accident rates of Teslas with the feature to those without.
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trils0n said: ?

Tesla's system behaves as a level 2 system. Not sure where this level 3 stuff comes from. It is squarely in level 2, both in terms of capabilities and actual operation.
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I believe AP behaves more like a Level 3, and so does Elon's wife!

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KaiserSoze said: ?

Elon has stated that the rate of airbag deployments is halved when using Autopilot. One must be careful with statistics, of course. You can't just count accidents when Autopilot is on or off, because most people engage Autopilot only in the safest situations. Best to compare the accident rates of Teslas with the feature to those without.
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The airbags didn't deploy in the fatal AP crash in Florida so agreed, statistics can be skewed for sure.
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trils0n said: ?

Tesla's system behaves as a level 2 system. Not sure where this level 3 stuff comes from. It is squarely in level 2, both in terms of capabilities and actual operation.
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The media and how it presents autopilot is why. They did so being completely ignorant of what really constitutes a level 3 system. That with a level 3 you can HAND OFF all safety critical functions to the car. You can never do that with a Level 3.

In terms of actual functionality Tesla, MB, BMW, and likely a few others roughly do the same thing. The only thing different about the Tesla is it does it better, and doesn't nag you as much. That's really all it comes down to.

It's a weird situation where the Tesla has better functionality, but less sensor tech. If you look at the MB drive pilot system it has way more sensors. It's probably capable of a lot more if MB allowed it to be.

Everyone has their different approaches so it should be interesting to see how it all plays out.
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KZKZ said: ?

I believe AP behaves more like a Level 3, and so does Elon's wife!

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That's ex wife X2. She's adorable. I''m sure even Musk cringes when viewing this. A cynic would say he was trying to save on alimony.
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I can't even imagine the conversation Elon had with his wife after that video appeared.

But, that's part of the problem. Is the way people view Autopilot isn't from a technical standpoint, but from a social media point of view.

Tesla doesn't do any traditional style advertising, and most of what we see is user stuff. Either people making their own commercials or posting things on youtube.

Even when they go to great lengths explaining what their doing (the whole don't try this at home) people still misconstrue it.

It can't be lost on anyone that the video of the Tesla driver sleeping at the wheel might be a fake, but people still talk about it as if it was completely totally factual. As if it happened with absolutely certainty.
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S4WRXTTCS said: ?

I can't even imagine the conversation Elon had with his wife after that video appeared.

But, that's part of the problem. Is the way people view Autopilot isn't from a technical standpoint, but from a social media point of view.

Tesla doesn't do any traditional style advertising, and most of what we see is user stuff. Either people making their own commercials or posting things on youtube.

Even when they go to great lengths explaining what their doing (the whole don't try this at home) people still misconstrue it.

It can't be lost on anyone that the video of the Tesla driver sleeping at the wheel might be a fake, but people still talk about it as if it was completely totally factual. As if it happened with absolutely certainty.
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Yep. It it's this kind of publicity that encourages texting, Harry Potter viewing, pretend sleeping, and other stupid shenanigans that endanger everyone on the road.
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KZKZ said: ?

I believe AP behaves more like a Level 3, and so does Elon's wife!

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Anyone can do the same in a level 2 system. That doesn't make it a Level 3. Here's someone leaving the seat empty in a Infiniti Q50S:

Note: Tesla immediately disabled this possibility when they found out someone did the same in a Tesla; AFAIK Inifiniti did nothing. Where is the outrage and finger pointing at Infiniti?

A level 3 system would be able to make decisions about changing lanes and making turns to reach a set destination (SAE describes this as the "tactical" aspects of driving). A Level 2 system is only able to keep the car at a certain speed and lane (the "operational" aspects of driving) and can't make decisions to change lanes and execute turns.
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stopcrazypp said: ?

A level 3 system would be able to make decisions about changing lanes and making turns to reach a set destination (SAE describes this as the "tactical" aspects of driving). A Level 2 system is only able to keep the car at a certain speed and lane (the "operational" aspects of driving) and can't make decisions to change lanes and execute turns.
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Making navigation and lane changing decisions is part of level 4, according to Federal Standards.

Full Self-Driving Automation (Level 4): The vehicle is designed to perform all safety-critical driving functions and monitor roadway conditions for an entire trip. Such a design anticipates that the driver will provide destination or navigation input, but is not expected to be available for control at any time during the trip. This includes both occupied and unoccupied vehicles.
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KZKZ said: ?

I think what you're missing is that other manufacturers chose not to make their semi-autonomous systems behave like a Level 3 system.

That's a choice on their part, not a technical limitation.

Tesla chose to implement common hardware in a way that every other manufacturer chose not to.

I think we can clearly see now which is the more responsible path.
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In what way is Tesla really different? I really don't understand your comments. Have you seen this video from Hyundai?

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KaiserSoze said: ?

Elon has stated that the rate of airbag deployments is halved when using Autopilot. One must be careful with statistics, of course. You can't just count accidents when Autopilot is on or off, because most people engage Autopilot only in the safest situations. Best to compare the accident rates of Teslas with the feature to those without.
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I have concerns over the statistics. The correct way to do this would be to compare miles driven on AP vs. miles not on AP on the same road segments and then look at airbag deployments. Another valid comparison might be accident rate for cars with AP vs. Tesla cars without.
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KZKZ said: ?

Making navigation and lane changing decisions is part of level 4, according to Federal Standards.

Full Self-Driving Automation (Level 4): The vehicle is designed to perform all safety-critical driving functions and monitor roadway conditions for an entire trip. Such a design anticipates that the driver will provide destination or navigation input, but is not expected to be available for control at any time during the trip. This includes both occupied and unoccupied vehicles.
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No, Level 4 is a system where the driver never needs to take control (as in a vehicle that does not even need controls at all other than inputting a destination). A level 3 vehicle would still be able to make turns and change lanes, but will not be able to handle all road conditions (such that it has to notify the driver to take over).

The SAE definition makes this more clear:
Level 2 Partial Automation: the driving mode-specific execution by one or more driver assistance systems of both steering and acceleration/ deceleration using information about the driving environment and with the expectation that the human driver perform all remaining aspects of the dynamic driving task.

Level 3 Conditional Automation: the driving mode-specific performance by an automated driving system of all aspects of the dynamic driving task with the expectation that the human driver will respond appropriately to a request to intervene.

Definition of dynamic driving task:
Dynamic driving task includes the operational (steering, braking, accelerating, monitoring the vehicle and roadway) and tactical (responding to events, determining when to change lanes, turn, use signals, etc.) aspects of the driving task, but not the strategic (determining destinations and waypoints) aspect of the driving task.
http://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/automated_driving.pdf

A system that can't change lanes on its own would not be a Level 3 system because it does not perform all aspects of the dynamic driving task.

Note, in all levels, the strategic aspects (setting the destination and route to take) is determined by the human, but I imagine in the future with even smarter AI will be able to make such decisions by you providing a schedule or just an activity you need to perform (for example needing to go to lunch, and the computer decides where to go to and what route to take).
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SR22pilot said: ?

In what way is Tesla really different? I really don't understand your comments. Have you seen this video from Hyundai?
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According to the Hyundai press release, the vehicles were modified to show what the technology would do, not what the production cars are allowed to do.
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micqing said: ?

I got Model X 90D in March. About two weeks later, I drove the X to Vegas with my wife and two little girls. After we got on the freeway, I started to use autopilot....
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Hey, @micquing...

Having driven AP for lotsa miles on my S, and seeing only discussion on other things so far, I wanted to say that it looks like, to me, that you initiated AP, well, differently than I do. I think that you confused the car. In essence, you said, "drive over that car".

If I understand it, you pulled on the freeway, hit AP on, and then raised the speed to 80. There was a car in front of you. AP is really Assist, not Auto, so you basically told the car it was clear in front. The car told you, no, there's a car in front. You have to turn off AP, wait 'til it's clear, accelerate to your speed, and start AP. Then AP will start watching cars and maintaining speed.

If I'm wrong, well, that's how it is. But I think you shouldn't give up. Figure out how to use it, and enjoy.
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stopcrazypp said: ?

No, Level 4 is a system where the driver never needs to take control (as in a vehicle that does not even need controls at all other than inputting a destination). A level 3 vehicle would still be able to make turns and change lanes, but will not be able to handle all road conditions (such that it has to notify the driver to take over).

The SAE definition makes this more clear:
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The Feds set the standards and have chosen a 1 to 4 level system. SAE uses their own definition but the fatality investigation is being performed by the Feds, not SAE.

Regardless, Telsa's implementation doesn't really fit any definition, and that's a problem. Tesla wants regulators to think its just a standard Level 2 ACC + Lane Keeping Assist, but then we see how it is used and marketed.

If AP is just a standard run-of-mill Level 2 ACC + LKA like everyone else has, then why does Tesla feel the need to release AP as a Beta system? Its just ACC + LKA, right? wink wink
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KZKZ said: ?

The Feds set the standards and have chosen a 1 to 4 level system. SAE uses their own definition but the fatality investigation is being performed by the Feds, not SAE.

Regardless, Telsa's implementation doesn't really fit any definition, and that's a problem. Tesla wants regulators to think its just a standard Level 2 ACC + Lane Keeping Assist, but then we see how it is used and marketed.

If AP is just a standard run-of-mill Level 2 ACC + LKA like everyone else has, then why does Tesla feel the need to release AP as a Beta system? Its just ACC + LKA, right? wink wink
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How is Tesla's system not fitting a level 2 definition? Keep in mind a Level 2 system (regardless if you take the NHTSA definition or the SAE) does not require the human to keep their hands on the steering wheel, if that is the issue you are talking about. It only requires you to stay alert, and at every opportunity Tesla emphasizes this.

NHTSA extended definition on page 8:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/NVS/Crash Avoidance/Technical Publications/2014/812044_HF-Evaluation-Levels-2-3-Automated-Driving-Concepts-f-Operation.pdf
Level 2 (L2; Combined Function Automation): This level involves automation of at least two primary control functions designed to work in unison to relieve the driver of control of those functions. Vehicles at this level of automation can utilize shared authority when the driver cedes active primary control in certain limited driving situations. The driver is still responsible for monitoring the roadway and safe operation and is expected to be available for control at all times and on short notice. The system can relinquish control with no advance warning and the driver must be ready to control the vehicle safely. An example of combined functions enabling an L2 system is adaptive cruise control in combination with lane centering. The major distinction between L1 and L2 is that, at L2 in the specific operating conditions for which the system is designed, an automated operating mode is enabled such that the driver is disengaged from physically operating the vehicle by having his or her hands off the steering wheel AND foot off pedal at the same time.

As for the advertising, people already pointed out that other automakers are doing no different in pumping the "self driving" aspect of level 2 systems, but you seem to have ignored that.
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KZKZ said: ?

Regardless, Telsa's implementation doesn't really fit any definition, and that's a problem.
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As I said before, Tesla's Autopilot is clearly a level 2 system. No ifs, ands or buts. The part in question is ACC + Lane Keeping. @stopcrazypp just posted a good description straight from NHSTA.

Level 2 requires to the operator to be ready to take control at any time and on short notice. This is exactly how Tesla's system works, both in documentation and practice.

Level 3 lets the operator hand over all driving functions to the vehicle and the vehicle must give the operator advanced warning on when to take over. Tesla's system does not do this, either in practice or documentation.

Just because Tesla's system is better than other Level 2 systems, doesn't make it level 3. (But you know all this already, and yet you still keep posting stuff like this)
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Here's the thing. Tesla never said to not pay attention. Never. Even if you take your hands off, you still to pay attention. Pay attention. It's so simple. Autopilot 1.0 and 2.0 and so on will require you to pay attention. Because of liability, unless there is a state or federal law or both exempting car manufacturers from liability, you will have to pay attention even in a level 5 fully autonomous vehicle. Enjoy autopilot and pay attention.
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teslamotorclub

Thứ Sáu, 6 tháng 1, 2017

Model X Autopilot Problem - Pretty Scary part 1

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