Jul 13, 2016
WannabeOwner Its probably been raised, but I don't remember seeing it.
It seems to me that changing lane would involve either a) disabling autopilot (apparently that wasn't the case) or b) using the turn-signal - which seems highly improbably if it looked [to the driver] as though space to get around the truck might be tight, or if the driver was watching a movie / not paying attention, or if the driver was incapacitated.
Perhaps there is another explanation for the change of lane? maybe Tesla logs record a turn-signal-AP-lane-change?�
Jul 13, 2016
22522 I understand lane markers are lost at the crest of hills. That means there is some reacquisition of the lane that happens after cresting a hill. That reacquisition process might include context of pavement edges. The edge right by the letter "f" as in "for" may have jiggled the steering right, before finding lane markers again.
I don't know if it processed that pavement angle as a road curving right, for an instance. But we can throw it in the hat.�
Jul 13, 2016
AZ Desert Driver Gosh I hope I'm never in an accident where every little detail of my life and every thought act and deed is scrutinized. Lawyers, juries, arbitration, reasonable, legal ... I pay attention to "reasonable man" things. All these other things that I don't pay attention could haunt my heirs forever.
You guys are scaring me. How is a person supposed to act?
This whole thing is tragic - a Tesla driver died, a Truck driver was there when someone was killed and has to be traumatized. Families are grieving. Industries are heaving. Make it STOP!!�
Jul 13, 2016
Canuck If I'm in a fatal accident, and scrutinizing every little detail helps to save just one life, I'd be really pleased (well, I'll actually feel nothing since I'm dead, but if I could feel, it would please me). The only way we advance as a society is to learn from our mistakes. I'm not saying Mr. Brown made a mistake, but part of scrutinizing every little detail is to determine that, as well as the potential fault of others.
In many third world countries, no duty of care is owed and so there's often no need to scrutinize every little detail. I said more about that here: Fatal autopilot crash, NHTSA investigating...
I'm glad I live in a society where we scrutinize accidents and I never want to see that stopped.�
Jul 13, 2016
Shawn Snider This just made my day lol! PRAISE JEBUS!�
Jul 13, 2016
supratachophobia I blame autopilot.�
Jul 13, 2016
Johan Blame it on the boogie. Or just say it was the Lord's will - InshAllah.�
Jul 13, 2016
Jleafs This whole thing was inevitable and entirely foreseeable. There will be more accidents, injuries, casualties and lawsuits related to AP. I see a lot of arguments essentially stating that this particular crash wasn't the fault of the AP, that ultimate responsibility lies with the driver, etc. That's all really beside the point - AP will directly and indisputably cause a death at some point in the future.
The real question is: how well-prepared is Tesla to deal with the fallout? Based on Elon's handling of the situation thus far, I'm not exactly optimistic. His comments have felt far too off-the-cuff and unfiltered for my liking.�
Jul 13, 2016
sandpiper At least this will bring some focus to the issue. Tesla knew, from day 1, that this was inevitable. Somebody would inevitably die while the car was under autopilot control. Tesla did their best to make it clear to people that THEY remain responsible. How the courts settle this will determine whether the technology dies on the vine or whether it continues to develop.
It was inevitable and necessary in order to tell the industry to either.. a) proceed carefully with our blessing or b) kill the technology.�
Jul 13, 2016
omarsultan Maybe time to print some "Elon is my Co-Pilot" bumper stickers and see if Carrie Underwood will record an updated version of her hit single:
�
Jul 13, 2016
Jleafs And that's the key point. You can draft any kind of waiver form you want with a million disclaimers and qualifications, but the question of responsibility and liability ultimately lies with a court/jury - again, something that was 100% foreseeable. There's also a PR element of the battle here, and Tesla could do a lot better on that front.�
Jul 14, 2016
RubberToe You follow Kunstler?
RT�
Jul 15, 2016
BriansBucketList some people like jury duty- it's your chance to experience the legal system, and maybe it's a bit unfair to characterize the 12 jurors as not smart enough to get out of jury duty. I know some very smart people that got a lot out of serving on a jury.�
Jul 15, 2016
DrManhattan Jury's have gotten a bad wrap lately with poor verdicts in some very high profile cases.�
Jul 15, 2016
BriansBucketList Im sure that this has all been discussed before on various threads, but for something like "autopilot" to be judged as a cause, it must be defined. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't autopilot usually perceived as a single system used to automatically fly aircraft ? Im talking about perception. Aircraft don't have other aircraft 5-10 feet away from them, much less are they surrounded by several other aircraft immediately in front, behind, and on each side, all at the same time, and at a distance less than the length of an aircraft. I don't think it's a fair comparison, and I think Tesla should immediately rename it.
What most people think of as the "autopilot system" are three systems, consisting of AEB, TACC, and Autosteering. Now, if you don't pay the 2500, or 3000 dollar upgrade for autopilot ? What stops working ? Wouldn't that be Autosteer, Summon, and the Parking features ? Wouldn't that mean that AEB is not autopilot ?
Lets say they jury says AEB is part of autopilot. It gets more interesting. Aren't almost all other automaker starting to advertise an AEB function ? Don't they stipulate that it won't eliminate a crash, just reduce the severity ? Are their fatalities reported and investigated ? Doesn't Tesla stipulate this also ?
If the jury of questionable intelligence were to rule that AEB failed to bring the car to a complete stop, wouldn't that ruling set a HUGE precedent, or does this just apply to successful electric car companies ? Same with TACC. Other companies offer it. Look no further than Mercedes for Lane Keeping / Autosteer. If one fatality in 130 million miles of "autopilot" results in a verdict against that car manufacturer, then it would seem like all manufacturers offering the same feature would come under scrutiny.
If I were Tesla, I wouldn't stop at an informative blog, I would get in front of this, and offer the same functions under a different name, eliminate the NAME autopilot, and continue to kick @ss on improving these functions. It wouldn't be the first time products and features were renamed for legal reasons. Emergency Brake Assist, Steering Assist, Cruise Assist, etc.
Possibly enable these features after the customer has demonstrated an understanding of how they work, and if they understand, and fully acknowledge liability, have them pay, and offer functionality. Maybe thats the easy way out, but I don't see each and every fatality, rollover, and fencepost taken out making national news. GM ? They just hid their ignition switch problem for years until they got caught. They may be responsible for another 3 billion in liability now ? No problem, stock drops a few pennies. VW is totally out of control, spewing pollution, but we manage to focus on people who by some witness accounts, may have been (this remains to be verified) traveling at over 85mph, watching a movie, and very familiar with autopilot and its various subsystems.�
Jul 16, 2016
stopcrazypp This has been discussed a ton already. Autopilot in an airplane is a system that generally keeps the plane at a given speed, altitude and heading. It does not "automatically fly aircraft". The pilot needs to be fully alert the entire time it is used (even in more advanced systems that can aid in landing the plane). There have been a few widely reported accidents that clearly illustrated that such systems need constant monitoring, the closest one to me being Asiana Flight 214. So the name is a perfect fit for Tesla's system.
As for "perception", a survey would probably need to be done. Personally, I understand perfectly what autopilot means in planes.
The Jalopnik article discusses this in detail and also highlights a line in the notice that you must click through to enable autopilot:
"Similar to the autopilot function in airplanes, you need to maintain control and responsibility for your vehicle while enjoying the convenience of Autosteer."
http://jalopnik.com/why-teslas-autopilot-isnt-the-menace-you-think-it-is-1783682751�
Jul 16, 2016
BriansBucketList Stopcrazypp, I understand the point you make, and as a frequent user of TACC and auto steer, I supervise them, and know their limitations well enough to use hem sensibly. Some of this thread focused on what a jury would think, and I find that because of the media selectively reporting the facts, good friends of mine are telling me Tesla never should have put Autopilot in beta. It's their belief, not mine. I have not advocated that they remove any functionality, just rename it.
You are likely aware of how many manufacturers offer AEB. Don't you find it a little odd that not one rear ender of another manufacturers car has made national news ? My point is that I believe that Tesla is being attacked by financial and petrochemical interests, and Even though Elon has seen worse, and is in excellent legal position, a perception problem is being created. I'm not sure all the facts are in yet, but Autopilot is just fine for me, and I have a pretty thorough understanding of the tech behind it. I think if less of the radar data is filtered, and more is processed, it can be better.
I still recommend a name change, and better driver education, because I clearly understand it better than poorly informed people Inrun into that believe every little half snippet of breaking news they see. I know someone who just bought a Tesla two weeks ago, who despite my multiple cries for caution, has now been in two accidents. He thought his car couldn't hit anything. He's reasonably sharp, but someone he knows must have had the good kool aid.
To summarize, I'm fine with autopilot, use it, understand it, but too many people don't, and I'm afraid that if this game of "find the most recent Tesla crash" continues, more aggressive action may be necessary. It's almost a no win situation. With data logging, Tesla can say the driver was presented with a keep your hands on the wheel message and failed to do so, then crashed a minute later. Sounded like a great response to me and my wife. Now, think like a lawyer. You spy on your customers ? Or worse, you saw data that indicated he was in trouble, and all you did was send a message ? The investigation is already asking for car logs. That ought to be good. Printed in boxes or flash drive ?�
Jul 16, 2016
lklundin In this case, I disagree.
While approaching the intersection, the Tesla had a clear view of any oncoming traffic, so an alert driver would have seen the truck approaching the intersection and would thus have been ready to react.
On a more general note I would say that on a freeway, the primary surprise a driver should anticipate is the sudden appearance of an obstacle where the required reaction is to brake hard possibly combined with steering to evade (assuming a modern car).
If fate actually exists, I will challenge it and like mr. Brown point to a driving video, this one from a ADAC driving course where there driver is told to evade either left or right while approaching an obstacle, in this case at 62 km/h (38.5 mph). As one can see, the sub-second reaction time is totally feasible, not just for me but basically all participants in ADAC's courses:
I am thus arguing that the 1 second reaction time does not apply in the case of mr. Brown.
(Apologies for pointing to an ICE video).�
Jul 16, 2016
22522
People have different reaction rates for audio and visual input, particularly if the action is preset to either "left" or "right".�
Jul 16, 2016
houdini Is it just me or is anyone else thinking "It was the freakin truck drivers fault!". I read somewhere he stated he saw the Tesla but turned across it anyway. Like a lot of bad truck drivers who think they ca just demand right of way. Not all but some bad ones. The truck driver turned into the path of an oncoming vehicle and said vehicle impacted the side of the truck. Straightforward. Am I nuts? If autopilot was on or not, if the car driver saw the truck or not, is it relevant? The truck cut him off for the love of.....�
Jul 16, 2016
AZ Desert Driver OK - here is a conspiricy theory....Tesla has a massive data base on how to make AP work. The ICE world wants this data and is using this accident to mine through Teslas stuff. Perhaps to make their build faster, perhaps to find an Achilles heel. But NOT to solve the Brown case. Tinfoil hat?�
Jul 16, 2016
RogerHScott There have been many more not-so-widely-reported incidents where pilots failed to pay sufficient attention and/or misunderstood the
status of the autopilot system. And these are highly trained, professional operators. How virtually untrained casual amateurs can be
expected to avoid these same pitfalls -- but on a massively larger scale due to their correspondingly massively greater numbers and
numbers of operating hours -- is beyond me.�
Jul 16, 2016
RogerHScott Speaking just for myself, I'm thinking "We don't know enough to be assigning blame to anyone".�
Jul 16, 2016
SR22pilot So AP is really TAAC, AEB and lane keep assist. All these are on other cars and with the same limitations (stationary vehicles, cross traffic). It sounds lie you want to get rid of all of them. AEB helps mitigate (not completely eliminate) rear end collisions. Do yo want to get rid of it? How about TAAC? A large percentage of cars have active cruise control. Should we outlaw that? If it is lane keep assist then do we outlaw that on Infiniti, MB, Hyundai and others? I wish the truck that hit me had had LKA on. It would have avoided an accident.�
Jul 16, 2016
bhzmark Yes that is exactly what happened. Based on the police report and the truck driver's interviews. And I hope the truck driver's company's insurance was paid up to be the appropriate target for the family's PI atty.
And I hope the PI atty fails in any attempts to get permission from the family to dishonor Mr. Brown's very informed and experienced enthusiasm for Tesla, EVs and driving assistance technology.
The blameworthy fault lies in that truck driver saying "Ehh that car can slam on its brakes while I make this turn right in front of it -- I'll just give 'er the gas"
oddly the current Reuters story doesn't have that quote. but it is in the google Cahced version.
DVD player found in Tesla car in May crash: Florida officials�
Jul 16, 2016
RogerHScott Why do you leap to the conclusion that because someone suggests something is imperfect they are advocating banning it? Or
that if they criticize one instance of something they are intentionally not impugning the entire class?
While it is true that the functionality of AP minus auto-steer is essentially cruise-control as appears in many other vehicles,
the experience of operating a vehicle with auto-steer -- at least as currently implemented by Tesla -- is significantly different
in terms of the degree of driver engagement. People using traditional cruise-control, or even TACC, don't imagine (wrongly) that
the car is "driving itself", whereas some do appear to imagine this when auto-steer is added.�
Jul 16, 2016
lolachampcar RS,
"And these are highly trained, professional operators"
some are but most GA pilots are not yet a large number have access to, and regularly use, AP functionality. They also routinely rely on the technology to their detriment and even demise. I suspect that, in the aggregate, aircraft AP has saved more lives then it has cost. It most certainly has saved a lot of people's lives in IMC
The real question here is where is the balance between personal responsibility and having someone else responsible for our behavior. So much richness is lost in life without personal responsibility as the responsible party, whomever that may be, will likely decide we are too stupid to be trusted with sharp instruments. I would prefer not to live in that world which is likely why I stay in the US.
Ban AP.
Remove access to a million AP miles per ten hours of data.
Push back fully autonomous driving by a decade or more.
Dump millions of tons more trash in our atmosphere.
KILL tens to hundreds of thousands more drivers by delaying autonomous driving.
This would seem to be an unwise path but then we invaded Iraq, have the TSA and are considering electing a con man. Lack of critical thinking and poor decision making seems to be in fashion.
Rant over.�
Jul 16, 2016
22522 A wide median left turn is going to be hard to clear in any traffic unless you can see a gap and time your momentum. Sounds like the hill makes this one worse as you can get stuck, stopped, with no momentum and a visibility distance that will not let you clear the intersection.
A green light for the truck, like the freeway entrance lights in California, when there is no approaching traffic over the crest of the hill, is a low cost way to avoid accidents while allowing the main road to hold pace.
This is an intersection improvement comment.�
Jul 16, 2016
thegruf I hadn't seen this report before.
So according to the truck driver, the Tesla was initially in the left (passing) lane but moved to the right lane at the time of impact.
How did that happen under AP?�
Jul 16, 2016
Kutu Maybe the truck driver is mistaken-- or lying. He did make a left turn into the path of a car.�
Jul 16, 2016
thegruf well posslble - but there is also report of the Tesla overtaking a vehicle shortly beforethe accident, which would increase probability it was in the left lane.
So according to the truck driver, the Tesla was initially in the left (passing) lane but moved to the right lane at the time of impact.
If the AP loses the lane though bad markings or cresting a rise it jinks ubruptly and no way the driver could have missed this.
If the driver delierately performed a lane change with AP, he surely must have seen the truck/trailer.
Something is not adding up.�
Jul 16, 2016
SomeJoe7777 To me, that seems to be an imagination problem, not an auto-steer problem.
If (and that's a big if) Tesla is somehow responsible for changing that perception, then the shortcoming is perhaps training and marketing, not the technical implementation of auto-steer.�
Jul 16, 2016
SomeJoe7777 Indeed.
Let's assume for the moment that this portion of the truck driver's statement is factual.
Moving from one lane to another requires operator action, even with autosteer engaged. This implies that the following scenarios are probably eliminated:
- Driver incapacitated
- Driver distracted
A hypothetical and speculative chain of events that may therefore be possible is:
I have no idea if any of that is actually what happened, it's just a scenario which would happen to fit the facts and corresponds with the truck driver's statement of lane change.
- Driver is in the left lane passing another vehicle with autosteer engaged.
- Driver looks forward, sees the truck in the wide median, preparing to turn left.
- Driver feels he should move to the right lane to give the truck a wide margin, but his pass won't be completed by then.
- Driver accelerates to finish the pass sooner, concentrating on his right-side mirror to see when is the earliest point in time that he can move to the right lane after passing the other vehicle.
- Driver initiates auto lane change as soon as he can.
- Driver is also cross-checking the instrument display to see that autosteer is still recognizing the lane lines during the pass and lane change maneuver.
- Driver looks up, truck has proceeded with his turn, it's too late, and he is now going very fast because he sped up to complete the pass.
Two potential problems with this:
- If there indeed was another car being passed, then he should have witnessed the accident, and we haven't heard about that nor heard a statement from him.
- Tesla logs should have shown whether auto lane change was initiated or accelerator was manually overridden, but we haven't heard anything about those items.
�
Jul 16, 2016
BriansBucketList I'm sort of surprised that these discussions go on an on using the term Autopilot. Is the ability to hold a lane at issue here ? I believe we have an AEB issue. If it were an Acura, it would be called CMBS, or the Collision Mitigation Braking System. Not intended to prevent collisions. This is one reason I suggested an Autopilot rename: to eliminate this confusion and obfuscation of which system did, or did not fail. The owners manual states the limitations, and while ones life may depend on understanding the technology they are using, they often turn it on and "see how it works." One thing that will surface after the facts are in, are will all the info provided, legal disclaimers, etc be considered a reasonable attempt to educate the driver. All providers of AEB should be watching this.
As far as what people imagine when auto steer is engaged, this is a fuzzy area. I just saw two men walk off a cliff and fall more than 50 feet whil staring at their iPhone playing Pokimon Go. Please don't let them buy Teslas. Is this how we have evolved ? Maybe Elons right. Maybe the simulation needs a reboot. How do I mitigate this as an automaker. Ask people if they dream of flying at night ? How about what are your expecting from your Tesla, with a list of features to check off, and sign, just like you sign when financing. Again, I think Tesla is legally well positioned, but in the spirit of safety, maybe take the explanation of features and limitation a step further than a blog.
As for the truck driver and his decision to turn left, isn't this decision going to be governed in part by the rate of closure of the Tesla. If, and I emphasize IF the driver (Josh in this case) as going 90 mph, how far away are you expected to see a car coming. Anyone know the legal speed limit at that location ? Is it the same where the turn was made ? This is far from cut and dry, but if AEB is ruled as an unsafe technology, and what people imagine (unfortunately Josh is no longer alive, so what he imagines is speculation) becomes relevant to decisions made here, then the outcome may be questionable.
How about some statistics on collisions on all AEB equipped cars. Isn't it about time that the benefits of this technology start surfacing, and perhaps lowering injury and insurance rates ? Tesla has volunteered one fatality in 130 million miles with Autopilot on. I wonder if that includes AEB which is normally always on. I haven't heard anyone agree Tesla is being singled out. I guess they are the only car that makes national news when a fatality occurs. We all know there's more than one fatality a day, and none of these other fatalities are in AEB equipped vehicles ? I think Tesla has a few cards they haven't played yet. Waiting on more facts to surface.�
Jul 16, 2016
jdw It is odd that the story was edited to remove the truck drivers comments and refocus the story on AP. Two very different stories
Thanks for the link.�
Jul 16, 2016
SR22pilot BriansBucketLis, I agree. The car held lane like lane keep assist is expected to do. You can talk about AEB but that is designed to prevent rear end collisions from the guy in front slowing down rapidly. MB and Hyundai have all kinds of warnings in their manuals. Hyundai specifically says it may not see stationary vehicles or vehicles crossing in front. It also says the system may not recognize trailers with unusually shaped cargo.
What I would like to know is the full telemetry on the car. Was the driver pressing the accelerator pedal? A lady says he flew by her moments before the crash. AP shouldn't have allowed excessive speed but it will if you push down on the accelerator.
According to IHS, AEB reduces rear end crashes by 40%. It does not eliminate them.
One link is Automakers agree to make automatic braking a standard feature by 2022�
Jul 16, 2016
BriansBucketList Or a slightly different link:
10 car companies make automatic brakes standard
A list of automakers who should have their antenna up. For sake of simplicity, I didn't mention collision with cross traffic, which I'm guessing stems from filtering data from the sides to avoid braking for structures like toll booths and freeway structures. We've al branched off to jury's, lane keeping, and what people's vivid imaginations might think their car will do.
Automatic braking shouldn't just be for the rich
Interestingly, the NHTSA recommends AEB, as late as last year. We appear to have regulatory gridlock, and potential reversal of progress, hopefully not confined to certain electric car companies. People on this forum, have acces some of the logged data. They log a million miles of driving a day, but I suspect a deep dive is made, when as Tesla states, an airbag is deployed. I would be quite surprised if Tesla told us everything they see, reference maps of which supercharger stalls are occupied in real time, displayed in Fremonts delivery centers. It's not accident data, but clearly they have information that could help them as well as hurt them, that's not shared yet. More speculation (sorry) but at a minimum, if they did a very granular data dump, I believe they could retrieve just about everything the Tesla onboard systems knew, which would include speed, braking pressure, AEB, TACC, Autosteer status, expected car path, actual car path, any steering override, any messages displayed, reported V and H coordinates from the GPS, and possibly RAW unfiltered sensor input. OBD III on steroids. I'm talking a stream of this data, not a snapshot.
If they get that type of data, they have a major leg up on other companies, and it doesn't need to be retrieved immediately. That's why I said the have a few unplaced cards. I think they have said what they need to say, at this point in time. If a collision is not fatal, Tesla won't comment until the driver is contacted. In some cases, the driver hesitates to respond, like when they know what happened, but may not want to share the story. Time will tell�
Jul 16, 2016
cpa The lawyers on this site need to 'splain the Third Restatement of Torts developed for plaintiff's attorneys:
The 3rd Restatement of Torts-Shaping the Future of Products Liability Law - FindLaw
A lot of this has to do with litigating product liability, and the bases for manufacturer culpability. I know nothing about Tesla's software or how it works, or supposed to work. Legal arguments and theories sometimes make my hair hurt.
But, I gather from reading this blurb that there are three tests that the manufacturer needs to pass in order to get a pass. But I could be wrong.�
Jul 16, 2016
thegruf Did it?
the (pre-sanitized) report above post #145 states the Tesla changed lane.
Why?
How?�
Jul 16, 2016
SR22pilot It could have been commanded to. My main point is that the car didn't run off the road. It didn't move sideways into another car. This isn't a case of LKA causing the car to swerve into oncoming traffic. People get confused. As far as LKA what do they think the car should have done? Now AEB is another story. The Tesla system has the same limitations as AEB from Mercedes, Hyundai and others. Even the IHS, a big fan, says these systems reduce accidents by 40%. They don't eliminate accidents. Had this been a Mercedes or a Hyundai I don't think this would have made it to the press.�
Jul 16, 2016
BriansBucketList Thank you SR22- this thread will probably be buried, long before we find out the real facts. Doesn't the NTSA usually take 3 months after the black box is found to gather the facts on airline crashes ? It's likely nappropriate for Tesla to draw conclusions while an investigation is underway.
Also interesting how Elon is attacked by the SEC (timing is suspicious) for failing to disclose a material fact prior to the secondary stock offering. That appears to be Reuters manufactured BS. No mention that the Tesla 10Ks alway mention the dangers of the new technology being used and fatalities are unfortunately commonplace. When an investigation is ongoing, and it may lead to a total lack of blame on any Tesla technology, maybe they said what they were obligated to disclose at that point in time.
If Tesla as able to make 500,000 cars, with 200 mile if range, and sell a lot of them, that disrupt the financial future of any person or company ? Of course. Would that be motive to make sure the news carries stories like Musk Nader investigation by SEC, or another Tesla Autopilot crash Nader investigation by, blah blah blah. I think Ill turn on my autopilot switch and see if I can avoid investigation.�
Jul 16, 2016
woof So this case allowed the widow's suit against VWA to go forward. What was the result?�
Jul 16, 2016
oneday ^^^^ this +1�
Jul 16, 2016
SR22pilot If the SEC wants to investigate anyone they should investigate people who post false reports to NHTSA. How about investigating people who post wild negative comments on forums hoping news services will pick it up and drive the stock down?
None of the above is aimed at people who think this or that isn't right with Tesla. You had to have read the suspension threads to see how irrational people are with their Tesla hatred. I directly asked one poster why he was on TMC. I thought I asked it in a nice way. His reply was to say he put me on his ignore list. His profile was private so you couldn't see any info such as his past posts.�
Jul 16, 2016
rxlawdude Jury duty is your civic responsibility. Or are you Marie Antoinette?�
Jul 16, 2016
RogerHScott Am I the only one who finds irony in the juxtaposition of "personal responsibility" and discussion of autopilot? Some might
say "If you want to be personally responsible, drive your own damn car!". I'm not saying I'm among those, just sayin'...
�
Jul 16, 2016
lolachampcar I use AP all the time (both types) and I am 100% personally responsible for maintaining control of the car/aircraft. If something goes wrong, pull my ticket but do not take AP away from others.�
Jul 16, 2016
RogerHScott Is there a reason you assume it would be impossible to at least partially mitigate this problem through technical means?�
Jul 16, 2016
bhzmark yep. looks like reuters is participating in manufacturing controversy. If you are so inclined email the authors of the Reuters story and ask them why took a story that quoted the very key eyewitness and involved party in the story. Perhaps because it made the story look like a normal negligent truck driver instead of a more clickworthy story about autopilot.�
Jul 16, 2016
jdw A great number of other publications and blogs picked up the edited Reuters story and ran with it, including most of the syndicated daily papers. Looks like Reuters was "ground zero" for the spin on this.�
Jul 16, 2016
thegruf thegruf said: ?
Did it?
the (pre-sanitized) report above post #145 states the Tesla changed lane.
Why?
How?
Indeed, and my point is that if, as you suggest, the Tesla driver comanded the car to change lane, then this was in sight of the Truck crossing.
I do not accept the driver would have initiated a lane change without looking.
I do not accept the Tesla lost the lane markings and drifted into the other lane, when it loses lane markings it jinks very noticeably, even an inattentive driver would notice this.
The statement does not read as though the truck driver was lying to cover himself.
How did the Tesla change lane?
I can believe AEB didn't trigger, though it must be noted a key defeat for AEB is the driver is pressing the accelerator or brake
Something doesn't add up, there is more to this.�
Jul 16, 2016
SomeJoe7777 I do not assume anything, and in fact, yes it is of course very possible to mitigate nearly anything through technical means. But with any technical solution, there are trade-offs, and in this case any mitigation would render a loss of functionality, increase in cost, or delay in implementation. I don't find those to be acceptable technical solutions for what is at its core, a non-technical problem.
The entire Autopilot suite of features works exactly as designed, and did so in this case. If the general public is aghast that an Autopilot feature did not prevent this accident, then that is a disconnect between expectations and reality. That does not mean that the reality is inadequate or flawed, that means the expectations are flawed.
While we're at it, let's make sure we understand all of the different Autopilot features:
AutoPilot Safety Features (included on all Model S and X vehicles manufactured after 10/2014):
- Blind spot warnings
- Side collision avoidance
- Lane departure warning
- Forward collision warning
- Automatic emergency braking
AutoPilot Convenience Features (optional package):
- Traffic-aware cruise control
- Autosteer with Auto lane change
- Auto parallel park
- Auto perpendicular park
- Auto high/low beam headlights
- Summon
If there was a technical failure in this accident, please point to the specific system where you believe the technical failure occurred, keeping in mind that a failure means that the system did not perform as designed, not that it didn't perform as imagined or wished.�
Jul 16, 2016
SR22pilot Most current AEB systems have trouble with stationary or crossing vehicles. The Hyundai manual has a detailed list of limitations. The MB manual mentions the same limitations. Current systems are designed to mostly mitigate rear end collisions.�
Jul 16, 2016
yo mama I have appeared for jury duty many, many times - but as soon as the folks doing voir dire learn that I'm a lawyer I seem to get dismissed for one reason or another. My suspicion is that the court may feel lawyers aren't smart enough serve on a jury.�
Jul 16, 2016
thegruf You miss my point, I'm not questioning AEB (and I'm well aware of its limitations).
Questioning how did the Tesla apparently change lane without the driver instigatiing or noticing the lane change.
If the driver instigated it is beyond credibility that he wouldn't have looked.
If the Tesla lost the lane markings to track, it would have been obvious to the driver.
Given the statement above from the truck driver the Tesla changed lanes, I do not see how the driver could conceivably not have looked at the road ahead.
And, for that matter what are the odds that the Tesla at 90mph could so accurately drive under the trailer without hitting any of the wheels?�
Jul 16, 2016
SR22pilot That's why I want to know the accelerator position.�
Jul 16, 2016
mkjayakumar ++1000�
Jul 17, 2016
rxlawdude I haven't been selected for voir dire since I got my JD and passed the Bar, but was allowed to be empaneled for a PCP possession for sale trial as a pharmacist 30-odd years ago. I think the prosecutor regretted that decision.�
Jul 17, 2016
JPP ...and I have never
...and I have never been seated on a jury in over 30 years as an MD working at a major trauma center. If the case has anything to do with injury, impaired driving, etc, the attorneys cannot show me the door fast enough.�
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