Apr 5, 2016
Haxster There's a good chance that free supercharging will not be included for the Model 3. If "long distance" supercharging is offered as an option, how much would it be worth to you?�
Apr 5, 2016
SureValla Elon said it was included in the price of the car so you won't pay anything for it after you buy the car.�
Apr 5, 2016
Haxster Yes, Supercharging capability is built-in. That doesn't mean that it will be free to use the Supercharger stations.
Gas cars include a free gas fill pipe and cap...but not free gas.�
Apr 5, 2016
model3fan And Tesla PR has back pedaled on that since then, and updated their website to say it will be Supercharger capable. Scroll down a bit for pix of the site before and after. News�
Apr 5, 2016
model3fan I'd love a pay per minute or $25/use model or something. I'd almost never use it. I can think of one work trip I take annually that's 180 miles each way that I'd like to use it versus borrow my husband's car. Honestly, I'd prefer it wasn't built into the price of the car and maybe give us another perk of some sort instead.
There's threads on facebook groups and such about people planning to abuse the network (if included) because they live in apartments and whatnot.�
Apr 5, 2016
Menifeer I don't expect to ever need to recharge away from home, so I voted "Nothing".
If/when large numbers of Model 3's are on the road, the network will have to be greatly enlarged. Waiting in line to get a spot will be very off-putting...�
Apr 5, 2016
Haxster As far as using a local Supercharger as a regular filling station, this is a current problem with some Model S owners. While it may be too late to enforce "long-distance-use-only" on current Tesla owners, it's a whole new ball game with the Model 3.
For the Model 3, Tesla could choose to offer local fill-up at Superchargers as an added cost service that's either bundled or separate from long-distance use. This would deal with the reality that a higher percentage of M3 owners are likely to have difficulties charging at home than the more affluent house-owning S & X owners.�
Apr 5, 2016
realtycoon My issue is that if there is a large price premium to use them, I will just leave the Model 3 at home and use my gas car for the road trip.
I would prefer having a certain number of free uses includes per year or have it like the S and X.�
Apr 5, 2016
pinski I voted Nothing, $100/year or $1000 lifetime. The use I would see from Superchargers would be minimal on an annual basis. If it's not included with the purchase of the car, I'd vastly prefer a pay-per-use model. However, I would probably be willing to do a $100/year contract or a $1000 lifetime option.
Otherwise for the majority of our use, it doesn't make sense.�
Apr 5, 2016
Haxster Yes, if they're able to ramp production on Model 3s as fast as they want, it's hard to imagine how Tesla can keep up with the need for Supercharging stations. Maybe they will be by reservation, pay for priority use, "put a little juice in here at this crowded station and fill up at the next less crowded one", and maybe use the "summon" feature to move cars in and out of the chargers.... They're smart people. They'll figure something out...hopefully.�
Apr 5, 2016
CyberKnife I think 100$ per year or $1000 lifetime max or nothing (included in price for larger battery) are good options. This gives the flexibility to folks not really want to shelve out 1k for superchargers that they may not use and put those dollars to upgrade another option on the car itself and if they want they can add it for a year for try it out for their long distance trips some point later on. This helps continue the life and expansion of the superchargers. 10 years ownership of the car would make 1k if the contract is renewed. I think some may want to just pay out the 1k for lifetime supercharger access and can't afford the larger battery.
My plan is to take the larger battery and this should include free lifetime supercharger access.
I have faith in tesla that they can maintain and expand the superchargers. The plan that I am aware of is to transition them to solar so this reduces the on going cost to tesla.
25$ or 50$ per charge is not good options because that goes against elons plan to sustainable transport, people will just drive their ice and fill up for less.�
Apr 5, 2016
AlexT The average mileage per person per year is roughly 15k. I'm using a roughly higher number, making population assumptions.
(Source used: Average Annual Miles per Driver by Age Group)
I'd estimate the Model 3 to do well under 300 Wh/Mile, or 0.3 kWh/Mile.
Priced at $ 0.14 (source: Short-Term Energy Outlook - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA))
0.3 kWh/Mile * 15000 = 5000 kWh
5000 kWh * $ 0.14 = $ 700 annually
If the entire fleet would use it on 20% of their actual mileage, that would amount to an average of $ 140 per car per year. Ofcourse... YMMV. Mess around with the numbers as you please.
Other thoughts that come to mind:
- it is unlikely you would *only* use the SuC (home (solar PV) charging has its benefits)
- is destination charging included?
- I'd definitely want SuC capability on my cars, preferably included in price, and mainly for long distance trips (I've done quite a few already)
Curious to hear about your thoughts. Please correct me if my assumptions or math are off.�
Apr 5, 2016
jkk_ I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of fee and I can understand if Tesla ends up in that kind of solution. However, I feel that $25/use would be a tad high. We have one (regular) longer trip, that we do 4-6 times a year, during which we would need supercharging in both directions. So one trip would be $50. Not too bad, expect that currently the fuel cost for that trip is around $20.
I won't mind paying for the use, but shouldn't it be at least on par with ICE costs?
Edit: typos�
Apr 5, 2016
Haxster Alex, as an economic analysis, your numbers look quite reasonable.
I think that at least two other (time) factors figure in:
1. Some owners (e.g. living in apartments) won't have the ability to charge where they live or work. Access to Supercharging stations near their home or work will be important practical factors for them. How much is this worth? My guess: somewhere between your $0.14/kWh and the equivalent price of gas. And Tesla can sell more cars if local charging options can overcome home-based limitations.
2. During long distance travel, being able to juice up in 20 minutes vs 2+ hours is a big deal. How much is this worth? How about the owners equivalent pay rate or an impatient spouse and two bored kids.�
Apr 5, 2016
Woosie I anticipate there to be three options: no enabling, pay a one-time flat rate for lifetime enabling, or a deterministic pay for use rate to enable. For this last approach it is simple to use the Tesla website/app to enter a requested period of enabling supercharging; you pre-pay that charge and fill up as needed during that time period. Simple to implement and manage by Tesla and Users.�
Apr 5, 2016
MostlyStock I think Tesla should give options that cover everyone. First I'll define long-distance supercharging as all superchargers that are more than 100 miles from your home. Here are the options I would give.
$2500 - Unlimited use of long-distance supercharging for the life of the vehicle (transferable to new owners). This would also include the use of local superchargers (< 100 miles from your home) a max of 4 times a month.
$7000 - Unlimited use of all superchargers (includes local) for the life of the vehicle (transferable to new owners).
$50 - Per use (credit card must be on file). Also the charge if you go above max local supercharging for the first option.�
Apr 5, 2016
MP3Mike What if someone makes a lot of long distance trips and they can't make it home from the Supercharger that is more than 100 miles away from their house home in a single charge? (And even if they could they would probably have to range charge, 100%, at the last one which takes way longer and would tie that Supercharger up more than letting them use it and the one within 100 miles of their house.
It just isn't practical.�
Apr 5, 2016
MostlyStock It sounds like that person needs the $7000 option. My idea behind the $7000 option is mainly to have taxis and Uber drivers pay for their use. A range of 60 miles from home might be better.�
Apr 5, 2016
Trips $10-$15 per use. Based on maybe 1 or 2 trips longer than 300 miles per year.
With $3 gas and 30mpg that would come out to about half the price of gas. On top that that the extra time it would take to charge vs fill up and limited charging options makes taking the Lexus the better option for long distance travel.�
Apr 5, 2016
TaoJones Traditional livery are easily segmented because, unlike non-garaged locals who might SC 1x/week, or garaged locals who just seem to get thrown under the bus constantly, taxis will SC daily or multiple times daily. I've met 'em - they'll drive 50,000 miles or more annually. If anyone's going to SC daily, it's livery. Not locals, garaged or otherwise.
And by definition, a local who travels out of town is no longer local. Leave the locals alone - they're not, nor will be a significant problem for many years, if ever. It is worth noting that most don't and won't use SCs, and that 95%+ of SCs are emmmmmmpty.
ICEing, especially after charging is complete, *is* a significant problem (within the context of densely-populated county SCs). Signage standards and stall painting standards must improve - and until that time, education needs to happen.
Today, I saw a woman in a new Porsche park in an SC space (one of the busier locations), get out, read the sign, and start walking toward the host business anyway even though there ICE spaces adjacent. I took the time to briefly but politely enlighten her as to why that was not helpful, but might not have had to if there was better signage and markings. Chademo spaces in Oregon are well-marked. Small municipal no parking signs placed under the EV signs go a long way, and make it simple for property owners/managers to call a towing company. Seen it happen.
Anyway, within our community, a quarterly e-newsletter reminding owners new and old of the need to vacate immediately when done and of the negatives of unnecessary pairing would be appreciated.
Pay-per-use plans are antithetical to Tesla's mission. Sell the base model without SCing enabled, and without AP convenience features enabled either. Make each/both enable-able by any owner at any time for a flat fee.
Keep it simple, folks. It's not rocket science. A growing problem is the neverending set of misperceptions about using SCs promulgated in large measure by those who don't.�
Apr 5, 2016
ArtC If you live in an apartment and don't have access to an outlet where you park, using the network is not an abuse.�
Apr 5, 2016
deonb A difference price per Supercharger, with $1 more each time than the previous time you used that particular Supercharger, capped at $50.
So first time you're pay $0
Next time you pay $1
Next time you pay $2
Next time you pay $3
etc.
This is per Supercharger, so if you go to another Supercharger, that one will start at $0.
This allows pretty much free long distance, but will discourage local charging.
If you want local charging because you live in an Apartment etc. you can buy a timeshare on a specific local supercharger which gives you free charging for specific hours of the week, and only those hours. As a plus, nobody else can use your Supercharger during those hours - so it's always available for you. And like a timeshare, premium hours have different prices than non-premium hours.�
Apr 5, 2016
souslik I see nothing wrong with pay per use but it's shouldn't be a fixed fee unrelated to the amount of energy pulled. That would encourage people to top up their battery even if not needed and thus block the stall for too long.�
Apr 6, 2016
jkk_ How your model work in case you need to use the same supercharger going both ways? Assuming you don't need/can use any other SpC in between? And is it ever reset to $0?�
Apr 6, 2016
Dogwhistle How about an option for per kWh? I'd be happy to do it that way, just charge me 20 cents per kWh and I'm good. Flat fee per charge just means people will sit there hogging the station to get their $$ worth. Give folks an incentive to charge up just what you need, and then get out of the way fr the next guy. Then Tesla can just send me a bill every month or quarter for what I actually used.�
Apr 6, 2016
BravoSarah Pay-per-use SC's would be a huge blow to the EV market. ICE drivers would point and shout "See I told you it couldn't be done!"
Newspapers would throw out articles explaining how EV's will drive up the cost of electricity and that it will become the new oil. Just look at the crap that's out there now.
Big oil is just waiting for something like that to exploit.
I would have no issue buying a larger battery with lifetime SCing, but only if free forEVer, as promised.�
Apr 6, 2016
SebastianR I would like to see a model that says "first 20 minutes are free" then you pay USD 25 (= significantly cheaper than gas) up to 2 hours. Beyond that it is 150 USD/hour
This will make sure you "always get home for free". The ones that either block the SC or use it more than for the occasional road trip pay quite a bit. I think something like this would be great for those who the SC network was intended for and discourage abuse.�
Apr 6, 2016
MP3Mike So can I just unplug and replug back in to start the 20 minutes over? Do I have to wait 10 minutes? 2 hours?
Also, I don't think 20 minutes will be enough to "always get home for free".�
Apr 6, 2016
stopcrazypp While there are some locations where commercial is the main problem (like San Mateo), there are also plenty of examples where garaged locals are the clear problem. I don't think they should get a free pass (since that will leave the problem unsolved). The California ones are the most common with locals (Gilroy first, but then same issues with Vacaville).
Supercharger Crowding?
[Rant] locals clogging the Highland Park, IL supercharger
I think the main reason why locals tend to be more of a problem is because they tend to be the main ones doing longer shopping (while those on a long trip or even commercial drivers need to leave for their trips, so wouldn't be as likely to overstay).
And general, no one should get a free pass (commercial, local, or long distance drivers) for overstaying at superchargers. Tesla needs to reinforce the idea that this is charging station, not a parking spot.�
Apr 6, 2016
SebastianR I was considering to add the "fine print" i.e. recharging for less than 150 USD / hour less than 3x per day; 10x per month; at least 50 miles driven between charging events or so... I would need access to today's typical super charger times / the model 3 charging characteristics etc. to give you a more definitive answer.
The key point of my post was: I think it would be great if there is a "free but very time-limited" option to help in the "top-up a little" cases for driving less than 400 miles one way. Then I think there should be a very reasonably priced "road trip" option and a "don't block superchargers with your car" disincentive.�
Apr 6, 2016
Dogwhistle I don't think so. There's nothing mind-blowing about paying for your own "fuel". I do it now with my i3 when I hit certain DCFCs. What couldn't be done? I don't think it will be nearly as big a deal as you make it out to be. Not to mention, a buyer can save a $2k built in upfront charge for use, like the S and X have now, which would be great for those of us that would never get that much use out of them.�
Apr 6, 2016
BravoSarah My point is (and I may not have made it very well), that it was said by Elon himself, it will be free forever. Basically making it a promise.
Breaking promises will have consequences.�
Apr 6, 2016
CarlitoDoc The options on the poll are biased towards folks that will use the SC quite a bit. For some of us it will be only a "convenience" for long trips.�
Apr 6, 2016
Bimbels Since I rely on superchargers for my commute (I'm supercharging right now while I have my dinner!) I'd pay whatever they wanted. And I am confident whatever it is, it will be fair.�
Apr 6, 2016
ucmndd If it's not just "included" I'd prefer some sort of pay per use philosophy as opposed to a large up-front sum. I'd only use them here and there regardless, so while the capability to use them is paramount, I'd rather pay based on actual usage.�
Apr 6, 2016
AlexT Someone pointed out an interesting fact to me. With the amount of kWh Tesla would use, they should qualify for massive discounts, bringing the cost price of their electricity further down.
Google search on High Volume Electricity Cost:
http://www.ecofys.com/files/files/ecofys-fraunhoferisi-2015-electricity-costs-of-energy-intensive-industries.pdf
Note: these prices don't include expanding and maintaining the SuC network.�
Apr 6, 2016
stopcrazypp Doesn't seem like it would apply to Tesla very much. Only their factory in Fremont might qualify, but their supercharger stations are spread across different states in the US (and different countries) and different power suppliers. As a unit, a supercharge station isn't necessarily that large a consumer of power (and in many cases there are extra demand charges for high power demands measured in kW).�
Apr 7, 2016
Dogwhistle I don't think he's ever said this about the Model 3. Really, a pay-per-use model will be the only realistic way of managing the 100s of thousands of Teslas in the wild in a few years. The all-you-can eat smorgasbord was a great PR tool when you were selling mere thousands of $100k+ cars that are sharing a system that is scoped out for far more. Yes, THEY (grandfathered) will probably have free (prepaid) use forever, but we're about to start playing a whole different game here. Elon wants people to charge at home, this is how you encourage them to do it. Can you imagine what the line at a gas station in town would look like, if it was just offering gas for half price, let alone free? That's what Supercharger stations will look like in 2020 if the model doesn't change. I don't want that, so please charge me for my use!�
Apr 7, 2016
Dogwhistle And by pay-per-use I mean pay per kWh or by the minute. Any flat-fee plan will only encourage folks to spend as much time as possible plugged in at the SC, instead of the minimum time needed, which is what we really want!�
Apr 7, 2016
AlexT Pricing
I'm not sure why. Obviously there will be users that travel more than others, and obviously there will be those who can't charge at home. However, this doesn't change the average mileage of the entire fleet. After buying your EV, you won't suddenly see a massive increase in the average mileage.
Therefore, I would think that providing unlimited* charging isn't that impossible nor expensive to offer.
* fair use policy / within reason
# charging points:
I'm also a firm believer that general demand will create an oppurtunity for companies/(and government) to fill in the gaps.
Some growth numbers for The Netherlands (you may need to Google Translate it - it's in Dutch):
Cijfers elektrisch vervoer | RVO.nl
From that URL, the growth of charging point over the last 5 years (please keep in mind NL is a small country).
Also note the 2016 numbers are year-to-date (end of year might be leaning towards 15,000-16,000)
![[?IMG]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/blogger_img_proxy/AEn0k_uVhxKlloQEhQ0E4Pt82Y5uavbvKV94Hda99OaAgcYA0rA2vUC0uMe6KeKQYPpnJVNAg1TNRQh54__9-xWaJxrxQd1SxBWUQoapLCjrFe7g61wFW7E7uaK5joKaaJ67-J54B1VB-HrNtZ9LmxbsgW4GmdpjheaUI3X0UOvuCBN7X2UNhHR8IgiU29n55sSBgJ4VyY3F1w=s0-d)
�
Apr 7, 2016
Craig9080 Yeah, if they charge for SC I will end up taking the ICE on anything outside of my commute�
Apr 7, 2016
Bimbels This boggles my mind. Would you expect any other car company to pay for your fuel? The Model S and X are a significantly higher price point and had the price baked into the car. Why would anyone expect the same for a car half the price?
You think the gas you put into your ICE will be a better deal than if you had to pay to supercharge?�
Apr 7, 2016
Laserbrain �0.25 per kwh (which is what I pay at home per kwh).
So a single 50 kwh charge would cost �12.50.
Or something like �0.10 per kwh plus �2.50 for each 15min of charging.
Flatrates are bad because
1) they result in wasted energy and as long as part of this energy is coming from filthy nuclear or coal power plants this is bad for the planet.
2) they are super unfair because why should people who charge nearly 100% at home pay for some uber driver's costs.�
Apr 7, 2016
Dogwhistle Again, because anything that is considered "free" or "one flat rate, all-you-can-eat" is going to promote camping out at SC stations. It will be all about the traffic flow-through rate. For instance, I have a supercharger 17 miles from my house at the end of a 250 mile round-trip commute (for real) and it looks like I'm going to be 10 miles short of making it home. If I'm already "pre-paid" what am I going to do? Yep, I'm going to stop and drink up as many free electrons as possible, while I go in and read the paper at Starbucks. Now, if the rate were only slightly more expensive at the Supercharger than at home what would I do? I would stop for 5 minutes and get only what I need, get the rest at home. I've just reduced SuperCharger usage by 90% for the same miles driven, which means potentially nine other cars could have gotten in to the same stall during that time I didn't occupy it. Yes, this is just one type of example, but this is what I mean by personal incentives playing a key role in how the SC network can feed the masses. Also, I'm all up in EV etiquette, so I know how to get out of the way when someone else needs the plug. As this goes more mainstream, don't expect to see that kind of consideration as frequently. Oh, and for my example above, what if I was passing the SC station with 10 miles to spare in getting home, well if it's free I'm going to swing in and grab some free "gas", my personal use rate just went up infinity percent for that trip!�
Apr 7, 2016
4SUPER9 I just voted and realized that I did so incorrectly. I voted as an MS owner and stated what I think Model ? owners SHOULD pay, not what I would want if I was actually a ? owner. Therefore, my contribution to the poll may have been a little flawed. First, TM confirmed to me in an email I received this morning that the ? will be "supercharger capable", therefore, it will not be free. I see no other way of interpreting that.
I would like to see ? owners:
- either pay per use, and make the cost affordable, but not ridiculously so that they avoid installing home charging.
- have a choice of either an annual fee or lifetime fee
PS: how does one write the "?" character without copying and pasting from another source?�
Apr 7, 2016
AZ Desert Driver Having a supercharging network scattered across the country is vital to my being ale to make the Tesla a full usable car instead of a local hobby. I may not use the SC network often, and probably would not ever touch 90% of the installed units, but that I can fill up wherever is vital.
Now- as to what this vital link should cost...no free lunch.
Base in the car price, pay rent at the gas station, pay a bit for the kw, All seem reasonable, but there HAS to be a model where the SC network survives.�
Apr 7, 2016
Scott Franco Whats wrong with $ per kWh? Blink switched to that model and it makes total sense:
1. You pay for what you actually get.
2. No incentive to camp on chargers.
3. No incentive to charge away from home.
Since Blink switched to that model, their SC station got a lot more useful to me. Now I use it for 10 minute booster charges if I know I can't get home. Since it costs more than my home $/kWh, I don't take more than I need.�
Apr 7, 2016
Scott Franco Write it in with a pen...�
Apr 7, 2016
Dogwhistle Exactly. I think Tesla will announce something similar at pt 2 of the unveil�
Apr 7, 2016
Menifeer I don't think paying for fuel has anything to do with it. I'll likely use my ICE car to avoid charging away from home, too.
It's about the availability of refueling and time. When driving my ICE car, if I close my eyes and coast to a stop, there's a good chance that I'm parked in front of a gas pump! In less than 10 minutes I'll be back on the road. Planning for and driving out of my way to locate a charging station and then spending a lot more time refueling just doesn't interest me.
The main buyers of 200+ mile range BEVs will be people who plan to almost always fill up at home.�
Apr 7, 2016
Bimbels It is likely true that the main buyers will charge at home, as that is the current demographic for buyers of the S/X. And because of that, in most places (except for a few in CA, during certain times, in the US anyway) there IS no crowding of SCs.
I take it you are not a current Tesla owner? I say that because, planning trips is definitely a different mindset than it is with ICE cars. And if you had done it, you'd know that except for a few areas in the US, the supercharger network is already very good - and I believe will be even better by the Model 3 launch. I have used about a dozen SC locations in the NE/mid-atlantic region and only once, on a holiday weekend at a site with only 2 bays, have I had to wait. 15 minutes. People simply do not camp out as much as non-tesla owners assume. 99% of the time I am the only car charging. And I guess I have faith in my fellow man that Model 3 owners aren't going to be DBs - because they will soon realize the importance of not hogging chargers when THEY want to charge.
There has been much discussion about assumed supercharger problems, wait times, crowding, etc etc. It is true it's an issue in some places currently - but it is being addressed and I am confident it will be solved by the time the Model 3 is on the road. But the reality is, for the vast majority of owners, wait times are NOT an issue - and with the planned expansion of the SC network in anticipation of the Model 3, I am confident it will continue to NOT be an issue. But I guess there will still be hand-wringing until it is proven to be untrue.
I also say that (you might not be an owner) because once you drive your Tesla, you will WANT to drive it on road trips - because the driving experience is far and away better than that of an ICE car - especially if you choose to use autopilot. Our 9 month old Model S already has 50K miles on it. Our ICE car sits unless one of us is forced to drive it. Supercharging becomes part of your routine just as filling up for gas is for your ICE car.
I would not be at all surprised if part of the "part 2" is the revelation that the Model 3 will charge much faster than the Model S/X. That would take care of a LOT of the anxiety about future wait times will be.�
Apr 7, 2016
eloder With many of the costs/solutions many people are proposing, you could rent a gas car for every long distance trip for the life of your Model 3 and still come out ahead.
I really don't think that long distance supercharging for free will break the network. It's very possible Tesla is making a $34k car, with $1k set aside for long-distance supercharging costs/maintenance. The supercharger network is cheaper than advertising that most mainstream carmakers have to spend on, and probably cheaper than the dealer mark-up. There's a lot of ways that free long distance makes perfect sense for Tesla.
Make subscriptions/costs for local supercharging use (<30 mile radius, more than twice a month or something like that) for people who can't charge at home, don't take away Tesla's biggest advantage.�
Apr 7, 2016
JohnSnowNW We'll probably pay a flat fee, assuming $2500, for unlimited access. It may be better for others, dependent on usage, to pay per use (if an option).�
Apr 7, 2016
BravoSarah Idk, all I see is negative consequences for the company, when you've given free SC to the wealthy; but start charging for it when it goes to the masses.
I think AlexT hit the nail on the head with a fair use policy.�
Apr 17, 2016
Haxster At the time the SuperCharger network was first discussed at Tesla, I suspect the discussion went something like this:
Q: What's another way can we get more people to buy our new Model S luxury cars?
A.: Allow them to take road trips and quickly charge their Model S along the way.
Q: How much should we charge for this service?
A: If we make it free and sell just a few more cars because of it, we can pay for all of the electrons we'll be giving away.
And a possible recent discussion about the Model 3:
Q: With a growing network of SuperChargers in place, should we continue to make it free for the Model 3 too?
A: With Model 3 production capacity limited for some time, there's really no incentive to do this. And we should probably consider eliminating free SuperCharging for future entry level S and X models too.�
Apr 17, 2016
tdelta1000 I find it difficult to think that Supercharging would not be available to any trim level without paying a fee. I think a one time fee will be sufficient to cover for each Model 3 just like the S and X.�
Apr 17, 2016
MSEV I feel like the "old guy" because I ordered my Model S a year and a half ago and there is some history and precedence for this with none other than Tesla Motors. At that time, to have the car Supercharger enabled, I paid $2000. Tesla has already been through this with the S, and eventually they upped the bas price of the car a bit, I believe, and then "gave it" to everyone getting an S. I know of a fellow S owner who bought without SC capabilities and he doesn't want to use the car for long distance. I use my S for long distance infrequently and I would not be without the capacity.
It makes me sad when a number of you on this thread said you would drive ICE on long trips instead of your Model ?. I hope you will think about that and pay for SC no matter the cost, but, of course, we have differing needs and situations.
So, IMHO, it will not cost as much as they had it cost with the S, it will cost $1000 forever (a comparable fee for the price of SC enabling of the ? compared to the S). My 2 cents.�
Apr 17, 2016
4SUPER9 Interesting points. We early adopters (I think even those buying the Model S now are still early adopters), have been funding much of the cost of building the SC network. By the time the Model ? becomes available, the majority of the SC network will be complete, and the cost to maintain and expand it will not be as much.�
Apr 17, 2016
ZAKEEUS If it's gonna be per use, $25 is way too high for only 215 miles of range. That would be close to 3x what I pay for gas right now getting 30mpg.�
Apr 17, 2016
Fiver There are many places where the only people allowed to sell electricity by the kwh are the utilities. You (including Tesla) can not re-sell electricity to others. You can sell electricity to a utility (net metering w/ solar for example) but that's it. This is not everywhere mind you, but it's in enough places that setting up different styles of billing would be a huge pain for Tesla.
I have no idea what Tesla will wind up doing, but it's a safe bet they won't be charging by the kwh. Perhaps by time hooked up? I'm leaning towards flat rate though.�
Apr 17, 2016
Topher The Tesla website no longer says "Supercharger Capable" it says "Supercharging".
Thank you kindly.�
Apr 20, 2016
Haxster Well... that still sounds a little vague to me. Yes, the car can be Supercharged. But is it free?
On the Model S page, it says "Free long distance travel using Tesla's Supercharger network". Pretty clear statement. But then there really isn't much detail of any type on the Model 3 page yet. Time will tell.�
Apr 21, 2016
Darryl Many states within the United States only allow for utility companies to charge for electricity. Therefore Tesla can't charge per kWh use but would have to come up with some other means of charging.
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There are a couple of issues regarding the supercharging network. First Tesla has made it very clear that the Supercharging Centers are intended for mid to long trips and not for everyday charging. Therefore before buying a Tesla a person needs to take this into consideration. I use to live in West Palm Beach. City garages had charging capability. As a city resident you could purchase parking for $50 per month which is a very reasonable amount especially since you can charge your car while you park. I know a lot of the cities in southern Florida provide this type of charging capability. But if you live in an apartment or condo and do not have the ability to charge at home and there are no other places to get free charging you have two options. Pay for charging or don't buy a Tesla. It is that simple. You need to be doing this analysis now. People think they will be able to charge at a Tesla Supercharger in their local area and Tesla will not know. Because the Tesla car is computerized and connected via 4G/3G to the Internet, Tesla knows whenever you use the charger. They have already sent out warnings to people who regularly use their local chargers that this is not the purpose of these chargers. At any time they want they can and probably will turn these people off from using their local charger, as they should, as they are taking up charging spots and causing long wait time for those who should be using the Chargers. If you live in a condo you should already be working with your condo association on getting charging capability. Don't wait until you buy a Tesla. I am sure there will be a some type of initial fee probably $1,000 to $2,000 plus a monthly fee. This is only fair. People who put chargers in at their home pay $1,500-$2500 plus an increase in their electric bill.
Next, as we are all aware Tesla has said the Model 3 has supercharging CAPABILITY but they did not say it will be free. Most Model S and Model X owners either paid the $2500 or the $2500 cost was built into the price of the car. It is only fair if Model 3 owners want the capability to use the Supercharging network they should pay the $2500. This helps fund the expansion of the supercharging network to cover the additional 500,000+ cars. It would be unfare to the Model S and X owners to charge Model 3 owners less for the same service.�
Apr 21, 2016
arjay Even to completely fill a 290 mile range battery pack from zero should only be about $15.00 max (at today's prices). I would only use the SC for long-ish trips once or twice a year (LA to SF). So I could see maybe a $1000 added to the purchase price of the car for unlimited use, otherwise billing on a per use basis makes the most sense for me.�
Apr 21, 2016
4SUPER9 This philosophy assumes that Tesla would only charge for their cost of electricity, or, at a minimum, the cost that the average consumer pays. Huh? Why would they do that? Shouldn't they charge for their cost, mark it up a bit to make it at least a tiny bit profitable, and finally, incorporate the cost to build and maintain their SC network? If the cost is made only a tiny bit more than what it would cost at home, people will use it willy-nilly. If people do not want to pay upfront, their cost use of the SC network should at a premium. This is kind of like buying a season pass at a ski resort. Mammoth charges $749 a season if you buy in advance. Not too shabby for a season. I skied 14 days this year, so my cost was $53/day. The daily lift ticket price is $135. So, people have a choice. If they do not intend to use the SC a lot, they can pay a premium for the rare times they use it, and not really sweat it. $50/use to access it maybe 10 times a year? Easy. Use it a lot, buy a season pass!�
Apr 21, 2016
Haxster It looks like the Model 3 will already have the Supercharger hardware built in. For the early Model Ss, the $2,500 covered both the cost of the Supercharger hardware and the lifetime use of the Supercharger network. So, IF Tesla charges extra for the use of the network on the Model 3, then it would seem reasonable to charge something less than $2,500. Time will tell...�
May 31, 2016
Haxster At the shareholders meeting today, Elon made it pretty clear that the base Model 3 would not include free lifetime Supercharging.�
May 31, 2016
ecarfan I agree. It definitely will not, but my impression is that there will be an option to purchase "Supercharging for life" when you purchase the car. If you don't, you will pay every time you use a Supercharger. Which seems reasonable.�
May 31, 2016
Trips 7:51 p.m. -- Musk says Superchargers won't be free for Model 3, its mass-market electric car next year, unless people buy an optional package that includes it. He says people should charge their cars where they charge their phones -- not at a gas station. They need to value their time.�
May 31, 2016
Trips Option A: $.20/kWh and less lines, minimal cost built into the car.
Option B: Free but you would end up paying for it the cost of the car, longer lines when I would only use it 6 times a year.
Seems like for a homeowner driving average miles that a pay per use is the way to go.�
May 31, 2016
McHoffa They could charge $500 for length of ownership or $200 per year of use and still come out ahead.�
Jun 1, 2016
SureValla its interesting to note he says it will still cost less than the cost to travel with a gasoline powered car. However, this is pretty vague.
1) depending on your local gas and electric prices cost to travel a mile varies throughout the country. (eGallon) so if its a pay per use will the rate vary depending on location?
2) is musk including hybrid cars which are paritlally powered by gasoline in his comment?
3) is this optional package for supercharging a pay per use or a pay per year/mo/day or pay one time upfront�
Jun 1, 2016
CmdrThor There are many states where the power company is the only entity that can sell electricity. This prevents Tesla or any other charging network from pricing by the kWh. They would instead have to charge by the minute which is unfortunate because the amount of charge you get varies wildly based on the taper. A reasonable about could be about $0.25 / minute however as it would encourage people to move on when they had enough charge. That should still be less expensive than gasoline as well unless you wait for a full 100% charge.�
Jun 1, 2016
Jeff N I fail to see how "per-use" plans are inherently antithetical to "Tesla's mission". In any case, I agree that the pricing model should be kept simple.
The mechanical process of Supercharging should stay the same. Just roll in and plug in. No further authentication should be needed. Easy. Any per-use billing should be automatically performed by Tesla onto the credit card associated with the car owner's Tesla website account.
CCS is moving toward supporting this kind of automated authentication as well so that drivers may no longer have to get out their wallets to wave a ChargePoint RFID card.�
Jun 1, 2016
MP3Mike While he didn't say "Supercharging Capable" that is what the slide on the screen behind him said while he was talking about it.
Supercharging will be "standard" in that the necessary hardware and software will be in the car and enabled, but you will have to pay to use the actual Supercharger network. (Though you likely won't have to pay extra to be able to use the CHAdeMO network, besides an adapter.) Which can be to buy lifetime access separately or as part of an option package. (Likely included in the larger battery.)
What we don't know is if/what pay-per-use, or subscription, option(s) will be available, or what any of it will cost.
Maybe that is true, so I guess it is a good thing that nobody has ordered a Model 3. They have put down a deposit/reservation to get in line to order one once all the details are finalized and released.
So it sounds like you won't be ordering a Model 3, so we can chalk two more cancellations.�
Jun 3, 2016
Topher So if you bought a computer which said "Wordprocessing standard" would you expect to have to pay extra for a wordprocessing program?
The website by the way currently says "Supercharging", the "capable" was removed.
Thank you kindly.�
Jun 4, 2016
davidc18 We won't be paying for SC as we don't need it for our daily driving needs (15 months with our 70D). I am glad it is an extra cost item and not built into the base price.�
Jun 4, 2016
Az_Rael I am sure the website will be updated once the details of the supercharging plan options are released. Based on Elons tweet, we should find out soon what those options are. Yes, some people will be angry, but that's why the reservations are 100% refundable until we configure (at which point we will know what car we are actually ordering)�
Jun 4, 2016
Haxster The statement is sort of like the one for the Model S, "Model S comes standard with a 48 amp (220V) onboard charger". But if you only have a 15 amp 110V outlet, you'll not be able to take advantage of the extra capability.
Or for your computer example, think of it as a statement like, "32GB RAM capacity", but only comes with 4GB.
It's actually a bonus that Tesla seems to NOT be charging for the extra cost of putting in the Supercharging circuitry in even the base Model 3. When the Leaf came out, they charged a LOT for their fast DC charging port...without any free electron juice.�
Jun 4, 2016
JeffK Extra for a DC pass through? haha that's funny�
Jun 4, 2016
MP3Mike It isn't just a straight pass-through especially on a Tesla where the DC shares the same pins/wiring as the AC charging input.
On the Model S 60 Tesla charges $1,900 to enabled the DC fast charging hardware, if you haven't paid for Supercharging, so you can use CHAdeMO. Obviously Nissan and GM charge extra for it too.�
Jun 4, 2016
JeffK You mean of course $1900 to enable hardware already present in the vehicle. The money goes toward the supercharging network or whatever else Tesla wants.
You can take it to the bank that the car did not leave the Tesla Factory at a loss simply hoping you'd purchase the upgrade so they could break even. You had already paid for the hardware in the base cost of the vehicle.�
Jun 4, 2016
MP3Mike No they determined that it was easier, and cheaper, to put it in every car by default than to put it in some and not others when most cars were paying for it to be activated.�
Jun 4, 2016
stopcrazypp This gives me so much deja vu, I just wanted to link back to the similar discussion in the other thread about how much DC charging costs to support:
Solution to charge your Model 3 if you don't have any garage?�
Jun 4, 2016
JeffK Fun quote from the Tesla charge rate optimization patent:
�
Jun 5, 2016
CmdrThor Why is that funny? I have a 2015 Nissan LEAF that has no DC charging capability. I chose that LEAF though because it saved me ~$1500 because with Model X as our primary road trip vehicle I'd have zero need for DC charging the LEAF. If we replace the LEAF with Model 3 (pretty good chance of that), I will still have zero need for DC charging our 2nd vehicle. I'd like to stay as close to the $35k base price as possible as Model 3 would just be a commuter car for us.�
Jun 5, 2016
JeffK If I'm not mistaken for DC charging on the leaf, it's an entirely separate port they'd have to install hence the cost. Internally every leaf already supports DC charging (as batteries are DC and the inverter converts AC to DC, this is true of all EVs). The Tesla models as far as I know have one port and it's already installed so it's included in the base price. Providing a DC pass through was a very smart move on Tesla's part and voltage can be regulated with inexpensive electronics.�
Jun 6, 2016
Topher Which would be a valid analogy IF it said supercharging capable. It doesn't (and Elon didn't) it says "supercharging (standard)"
Thank you kindly.�
Jun 11, 2016
DarylLafferty My biggest concern is not the cost of charging, but the availability of a charger in Quartzsite, Arizona when I'm on my way from Phoenix to LA. If the deal is lifetime charging, then nothing will prevent people from connecting their car, and going to eat a leisurely lunch, waiting till their battery tops off. I'll arrive and find 10 cars ahead of me waiting for a hookup.
Even if the deal is charge per kWh, the charging rate get much slower as the battery fills, so sitting in the restaurant for an extra half hour won't cost much extra, and again there is little incentive to hurry back.
I think the rate has to include a time penalty; either charge strictly by time, or charge by the kWh but have a growing penalty for staying longer than 1/2 hour (or whatever is appropriate).�
Jun 11, 2016
4SUPER9 There will never, ever, be a charge per kWh. Too complicated to manage, and a violation of the law in enough states to make it too inconvenient.
My guess is either one, or all, the following:
- Lifetime option
- Yearly option
- Per use option (controlled by the app and paid for through iTunes, or something)
�
Jun 11, 2016
EVNow In software - the same codebase may be distributed and premium features cost extra. Why is that any different ?�
Jun 12, 2016
JeffK That's apples and oranges we're speaking of the cost to manufacture not the price it's sold for. Some posters believe the hardware cost to enable fast DC charging is expensive for manufacturers, whereas I disagree wholeheartedly and believe it's super cheap compared to the prices it's being offered to customers. People are justifying the price of supercharging based on the car's hardware but I believe the money goes toward the supercharging network and other costs not to pay for hardware in the vehicle itself.
The hardware in the vehicle itself will always be included in the price of the vehicle.
Other companies like Nissan are practically price gouging for their fast DC CHAdeMO charging ports and last time I checked they don't have a supercharging network.�
Jun 12, 2016
stopcrazypp No one is saying the prices they charge is directly the cost. That would be naive (automakers have to make a margin on options). However, the push back is on your ridiculous assumption that it costs only $50 to implement DC charging. Specifically, my point was that an allocation of $750 to the hardware activation (margins included) out of a $2000 supercharger option price is a reasonable assumption given that is how much other automakers charge for their hardware only option. Whether or not they included the hardware already is irrelevant to this.�
Jun 12, 2016
EV-lutioin How about free Model 3 supercharging for Model S and Model X owners? Since MS and MX owners helped finance the Model 3... it's only fair
�
Jun 13, 2016
trm2 Supercharging needs to be free if you are more than 50 miles from home (where you charge most/ where your car spends most of its time) or if your last charge was at a SC within a few hours, indicating you were indeed on a road trip. That should take care of overcrowding from local use.�
Jun 13, 2016
timk225 The only local supercharger is 20 miles away. I doubt I'd go there very often. I'm hoping they build more superchargers closer to me. Is there any map or build schedule showing where new planned ones will be?
I'd prefer to not pay anything up front and pay a SMALL fee, like $3 to $5, each time I actually use a supercharger.�
Jun 13, 2016
nexsuperne101 �25 per use, as it would be here in the UK works out at about 12p per mile. That's the equivalent of driving a petrol car with 42MPG. For how small the UK is, I might use that option once a year, and TBH, an Ecotricity Chademo Rapid charger, when they start charging for the service, will possibly be the cheaper option.�
Jun 14, 2016
4SUPER9 I still do not understand any of these suggestions. Why would any company give their services away for free, or for a drastically subsidized price? This reeks of the millennial mentality. This second suggestion would particularly prove to be problematic, as almost everyone would choose this option. $3 to $5, what a joke. Who wouldn't want that? No more home charging needed! No, it would have to be closer to $50, like filling a tank of gas. Maybe a little less. For the 20 times I use a SC a year, $50 a charge would be $1,000/year.. Maybe that would be too much, and I would opt for lifetime. If it was as low as $25, it would be a no-brainer for me, but probably not for someone who travels a lot and uses the SC network regularly. $5?? No way will we ever see that!�
Jun 14, 2016
timk225 Because....... 'Merica ?
Let's math it out.
What is the up front fee for supercharging? $2000? Now, if I were able to pay $5 each time I used a supercharger on my base Model 3, I think it'd be safe to assume that on average, of the 215 mile rated range, I'd be around 150 miles, sometimes more, sometimes less, between charges.
So $5 per charge, times 400 charges = the $2000, and 400 charges at an average of 150 miles per = 60,000 miles, or in my case, about 3 years of driving.
The cost of fueling an electric car HAS to be far far less than any gas car, even a 50 mpg one, otherwise, what's the point and benefit of getting an electric car? I don't care about the environment.
So you see, after 3 years, Tesla still gets their $2000 and then MORE, from the remaining years of the car's life. Win for Tesla to charge me $5 per supercharge than a 1 time fee of $2000.�
Jun 14, 2016
xav- I think tesla will have to figure out a different type of supercharging network for the 3. People with the model 3 will be far more likely to abuse super chargers than the model S. Many people will depend on it.
I think they are going to have to come up with a profit based system involving themselves (providing super chargers) and third parties such as shopping malls and private and public parkings and. Pay per use. Electricity will be sold a significant premium to utility rates. Third parties will have to make real money on this. So I think something like $20 for half an hour of supercharging or something like that.
For the end user that will still be cheaper than paying for gas. For third parties that will be a great way to make money. Such places would explode in popularity and appear all over the place very quickly.�
Jun 14, 2016
jkk_ Maybe it would be best just to never sell the model 3 at all. Keep them superchargers safe from scum class!�
Jun 14, 2016
alseTrick I very much doubt that. There will simply be more of us 3ers than the S/Xers.�
Jun 14, 2016
Jersey Shore Tom I apologize for piling on, but this is offensive. Please provide a sound basis for saying this.�
Jun 15, 2016
Garlan Garner Thank God for this article.
Stop worrying about Tesla Supercharger congestion, it will be alright�
Jun 16, 2016
Tiberius Written by a woman.... disregarding.
Edit: That was just a joke. It's actually pretty good.�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner LOL. Yes it was pretty good�
Jun 28, 2016
TacC Tesla would bring in far more money using your model. I'm just not sure it fits with the short term needs and long term vision. I'm guessing that Supercharging is a $2000 option and "per use" charging is not offered.
I think Tesla would prefer to take in as much cash upfront as possible to fund growth. Charging per use also fosters the notion of a hierarchy among owners that I don't think they're interested in. And the issues around ICEing, abuse, etc. all distract from Tesla's core business.
Using Tesla's calculator, 150 miles of charge is $6 so this comes to a head rather quickly. I could see them paying less than $0.12/kWh, although it is probably not worth speculating on, especially with so many SC's in California.
At $2000, Tesla has to operate the SC network at a loss or assume that the average driver will not use an SC for daily charging or assume that the car will be off the road after 50,000 SC miles. If I'm paying $2000 up front, I'm using the SC network as often as practical. And on the 50k mi front, I'm unlikely to ditch a car that is free to charge and has minimal maintenance costs.
So something has to give and that something is the cost to provide energy. The SolarCity acquisition and Powerwall improvements have to drive this cost down. Selling charging rights to other manufacturers will drive some additional revenue here, as well.
The logical move seems to be to take the cash upfront from thousands of owners and build out the network on SolarCity panels.�
Jun 28, 2016
mkjayakumar What would I pay for Super charging?
Whatever Tesla deems fit. That option is not in the poll here.
I am sure Tesla is not gouge us. Also i will be using it maybe 4 or 5 times a year. It wont really matter much.�
Jun 28, 2016
jackycheong Can you imagine a tons of Model 3 uber X drivers in the line for supercharging while Model S and X owners waiting for hours?? Model 3 owners will sell their que (prob. $5 to $10?) to S and X owners to make a profit. It gotta be a pay per use model. I would guess $10-$15 per use.�
Jun 28, 2016
Garlan Garner I can imagine it...but its certainly not going to happen. Charge per use has already been confirmed by Tesla that - It aint going to happen. No charge per use.
It only takes me $1.90 to charge my MS at home.
$10-$15 per use is just Ludicrous. ( Another chance to use that word...I can't wait).�
Jun 29, 2016
MiamiNole Needs to be an option for "Whatever the cost is of the package for which supercharging is included". Elon's already alluded to this, most likely a bigger battery. Pretty sure a number of people would probably go with this answer since many people already plan on buying the bigger battery.�
Jun 30, 2016
mkjayakumar It only cost $0.30 to make a nice cup of coffee at home, but Starbucks charges you $1.99 for the same. But I haven't seen you complaining that Starbucks is ripping you off. It is the price you pay for the convenience of drinking coffee on the road, knowing very well that 90% of your coffee drinking happens at home or office. And remember the price they charge also reflects the expenses they incur on running an establishment.
What for charging 80 kwh it costs you only $1.90 at 2c /kWh?�
Jun 30, 2016
Garlan Garner What?
First of all, I don't drink coffee. I would nave no information concerning starbucks nor coffee. However for those who get white seats in the M3 can feel safe about getting coffee on their seats. Tesla Model X "Ultra White" seats tested against coffee spill and ketchup stains
I drive approx. 100 miles per day and as I charge my car...the meter on my charger increases $1.90 as it pulls in common wealth edisons current prices - including the myriad of taxes and such....and it averages $1.90. Of course I don't pay taxes and fees for electricity because my solar array produces more than what I use. ( long story ) $1.90 is certainly NOT a complaint. Its great. $1.90 is excellent when comparing how much it costs an ICE car in gas to go 100 miles.
So......I'm not sure what you are talking about.�
Jun 30, 2016
mkjayakumar You personally drinking coffee or not, is not the point. That was used as an illustration to drive a point
<face-palm>�
Jun 30, 2016
Garlan Garner Yes, got it......and........
That's why I think pay-per-use is stupid. Pay once sets the price and lowers the price every time you use it. That way, I can regulate the price and not the vendor. I love it when I can set the price of the product I buy. Such as - All you can eat restaurants�
Jun 30, 2016
4SUPER9 Bam! You nailed it.
Garlan, I am not sure why you made such a huge point of you not drinking coffee if you said you "get it."
Right, so you get it. Most restaurants do not offer all you can eat. The vast majority in this country, set a price for each item, to include a profit. I would not call this stupid, but common business sense. If not coffee, what about a pasta dish at a restaurant? The spaghetti costs $0.25, the sauce costs $0.50, but the restaurant charges $12.00. What?? OMG, that is highway robbery, especially when we don't pay that much at home! How dare they charge for their overhead (rent, employees, insurance, etc), and even worse, how could they even consider making a profit? The nerve!
Let's look at it like going to Disneyland. A season pass, depending on which options, runs as much as $1050. A day pass is about $100. If I intend to go several times a year, I may choose to get a season pass. If I am only going once a year, why bother? I see no reason why this same philosophy can be applied to supercharging, if they so decide. A year or lifetime pass for x amount, a per use amount of y amount. The y amount will not be same as charging at home, or the equivalent breakdown if you use a supercharger 10, 20 or 100 times a year. People here need to stop looking for Tesla to discount their services. You can choose to pay out big bucks for each charge, or buy the season pass. Who know, maybe they'll even offer a monthly or weekly "travel pass?�
Jun 30, 2016
Garlan Garner You don't get it. You are not getting what I'm saying.
I don't care about the price of anything.
I want pay once forever not pay per use. That's the only point I've ever made.
I don't think Tesla is getting over on anything. Whatever their price is - is what it is. If I buy it ... then fine. If I don't buy it....then fine.
I don't want pay-per-use to be the only option. That would be stupid to me.�
Jul 1, 2016
4SUPER9 Ah. Thank you for the clarification. I agree that pay-per-use as the only option would not work. I highly doubt Tesla would do that. If they only offer one option, my guess is that it would be a lifetime. A pay-per-use, or a monthly plan would be additional options, if offered at all. That makes a lot of sense to me. Many people never travel, and if they decide to, they can enroll for a month long plan for their trip only.�
Jul 1, 2016
JeffK Psychologically, I don't want to pay for supercharging. I think PPU wouldn't be good and an up-front cost might induce sticker shock. Now if it were hidden away in the cost of premium options then I'm all for that. Out of sight, out of mind.
I can understand have it as an option for the base model, but with all the premium options I'd already be looking at nearly twice the cost of the base model.�
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