Dec 27, 2014
wk057 Figured this warranted a new thread...
As noted here by dennis in the other thread, Elon Musk tweets software upgrade will increase P85D range - Page 18 , Elon Mush has removed his tweets about P85D and 85D efficiency improvements coming via software updates.
I don't know about you, but this is leaving an even more sour taste in my mouth about this whole range issue...
Original links
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/547552536220008448
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/547559568939573248
One of the original text: "Software update to achieve max efficiency (going to full idle on 2nd motor) is not out yet. Range of P85D should then closely match P85+."�
Dec 27, 2014
darthy001 Hmm... I cannot believe that he could do this and think no one would notice!? He cant possibly be that stupid....
I would think this leaves him open for all kinds of legal issues if done to hide his actions.
Hoping this is step one in clearing up comms here, but cannot shake the feeling of something being very fishy now...�
Dec 27, 2014
InternetDude The tweets are showing up for me...�
Dec 27, 2014
Bet TSLA My guess is that he's getting reined in by the lawyers. It's clear to me from this forum that Tesla will eventually go the way of Apple: total silence on unannounced products. There's just no benefit to it. There's endless complaining by customers, potential and actual. For the same reason, the whole production and delivery process will probably become opaque as well: you'll order, they'll (maybe) give you an estimated date with no promises, and you'll be informed the day before delivery. All questions about your car will be answered by: I don't know anything beyond what's on your dashboard (which will be nothing beyond "in production"). And all questions about unreleased software updates will get the same response.
I think this will make most people happier in the end, and is just as good as other car manufacturers. People who want certainty can buy from stock.�
Dec 27, 2014
wk057 Nope, they're gone. Must be cached on your side.
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Well, I don't see how it could be an issue to post the info if it were legitimate, accurate info... if it wasn't however........�
Dec 27, 2014
Bet TSLA Correctness isn't the issue. It's about setting expectations, reliable and consistent communications, and letting your VP of comms do his job without interference. Rogue founders tend to be a problem as companies mature. Elon will have to stop this, or at least run everything though PR first (which will involve lawyers). He will be very unhappy with this. Such is life. He'll compromise.�
Dec 27, 2014
wk057 Seems they probably need to fire whoever is presently in charge of communication, internal and public communication, IMO...�
Dec 27, 2014
bluenation umm, except that apple always announces their products literally two weeks prior to availability, and when it's available, it's REALLY available. say what you will about tim cook...at least he was a logistics god who made sure the millions who ordered, got those millions of iphones (or whatever). Without a who-knows-its-gonna-work-out deposit, and a i-have-no-idea-whats-going-on-with-my-order delivery process.
(which is not to say apple doesnt have many, many flaws, but thats a separate topic)�
Dec 27, 2014
ItsNotAboutTheMoney Could have been the result of a stern gaze from the EPA. They really frown upon untested claims.�
Dec 27, 2014
stopcrazypp Probably another case of Elon speaking before his lawyers reigned him in. When he speaks publicly sometimes other executives have to hold him back too or he says a bit too much.�
Dec 27, 2014
Bet TSLA I don't know. Maybe they just need to let him do his job. It's not easy to tell a guy like Elon to STFU.
No. Often Apple announces it's available TODAY! Tesla would be better off if they did the same. They'll figure it out. For instance, they wouldn't be late on the Model X if they hadn't made promises. In fact they could just ditch it and concentrate on their real goal, the Model 3. As it stands, if they mess up any further on the Model X it will become hugely expensive to them, in both time and money. This is a potential disaster entirely of their own making, through badly chosen communications.�
Dec 27, 2014
marchyman What you see or don't see is irrelevant. It is what the SEC sees that is important. The SEC has strict rules about announcements and how they are released. Using twitter and facebook is OK as of April of 2013 PROVIDED investors have been alerted about which social media will be used to disseminate such information. If Tesla (the company, not Elon Musk the CEO) hasn't made an official announcement stating twitter as an official source for company info then such tweets could go against regulation FD. The SEC worries that "One set of shareholders should not be able to get a jump on other shareholders just because the company is selectively disclosing important information" where in their mind using twitter is the same as selectively disclosing important information.
�
Dec 27, 2014
Auzie Tesla is on a learning curve regarding communications. They will get to a destination that you describe so well. Anything more granular easily turns into 'shooting oneself in the foot'.�
Dec 27, 2014
dennis I doubt that. He didn't mention EPA mileage figures. Plus the P85D numbers as submitted to the EPA are already "close" to that of the P+ when outfitted with the same wheels/tires.
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I think they already did. And brought back the only guy who was able to get along with Elon when in that role.�
Dec 27, 2014
3mp_kwh I don't think its the SEC, as much as possibly saying too much with the "idle the 2nd motor" comment. That may have let too much out. Even if we assume the second motor is the rear (w/greater front efficiency), these motors may not be "clutching out" in a way that keeps their rotating inertia from being a drag on efficiency. If one is idled, the other has to drag it around, wasting energy to change speed even subtly. And others are credibly theorizing the two motors can work against each other a bit, when both are functioning. Someone's claim the 275/285 numbers were "modeled" is starting to make more sense. In perfect conditions, a smaller motor should do what they thought, alone.
EPA could pick up on a modeled number. I thought manufacturers were supposed to be fresh off the dyno, if not real world drive cycle tests. In that case, the highway MPGe could be the liability they are focused on.
Ford sent $500 checks to owners who'll never make up the 46-38mpg $$ difference, between their EPA submitted number and fuel economy.gov's customer submissions. That gap was huge, and now they are running C-max ads saying "it's not the miles you'll get out of the C-max", before providing a total range figure. How clever. I'd questions Ford's scruples much sooner than Tesla's.�
Dec 27, 2014
maoing Not only those two tweets. There is another recent one about "Should mention that a battery pack upgrade is not coming soon for the Model S, but it obviously "will" happen long-term" also got removed. So I suspect it's due to some communication issue from Elon's tweets instead of specific P85D/S85D range concern.
�
Dec 27, 2014
Andyw2100 This is interesting.
How do we find out whether or not Tesla investors have been alerted to the use of Twitter as an official source of company information or not?�
Dec 27, 2014
marchyman Not sure, but I'd start by perusing the investor relations web pages. Tesla - Investors Overview You might have to call investor relations and ask.�
Dec 27, 2014
dennis The 275/285 numbers that may or may not have been modeled were at a constant 65 mph, and clearly stated as such.
Manufacturers must follow a very strict procedure for the EPA tests, which are conducted on a dyno. That is where the 94 MPGe was achieved.�
Dec 27, 2014
AWDtsla No one would be stupid enough to call that a "model" of power consumption. Someone driving a dev vehicle would surely notice 30-40% more power usage than expected.
A more rational explanation is the production car does not yet have the same software as the dev car. It's probably stuck in QA.�
Dec 27, 2014
Johan They must know that tweets by the CEO counts as official information. Reyes has a difficult job I'd imagine...�
Dec 28, 2014
Auzie The use of social media including Twitter for company announcements has been cleared in the past by SEC.
There were many other tweets by Elon in the past that related to Tesla announcements.
Perhaps Elon is always keen to share good news, but sharing too much can backfire. People can be merciless with the demands.�
Dec 28, 2014
schonelucht Why are we so sure it is the lawyers who called him back on the tweet (be it because of SEC, EPA doesn't really matter)? There is also the distinct possibility his engineers called him back because they won't be able to deliver the promise in his tweet (soon)...�
Dec 28, 2014
Bet TSLA Nobody is pretending to be sure of anything. We're speculating. In this we will never be sure. But I'm betting that some time soon Tesla gets much less fast and loose about its claims and predictions.�
Dec 28, 2014
darthy001 This is the only "positive" news here. Might just be a more general clean up since all thats left are more or less covered in official blogs etc.�
Dec 28, 2014
sandpiper Maybe. But the most obvious scenario is their realization, in the last few days, that they can't get the P85d to come up to the range of the p85, that they have a big problem and that they're trying to limit the damage. Although this horse is out of the barn already.
So, what to do? I take delivery in a few days and I didn't sign up for a car with 15% less range than the p85.�
Dec 28, 2014
Johan If this is what it ends up coming down to it will be a really big issue for Tesla. They will publicly have to eat their words and apologize and/or offer free returns and money back for all P85D buyers.
It will be an issue much worse than for example the "lease cost calculator" nonsense, the "300 mile range Model S", all the delays since with those things at least there was a way to interpret their statements so that they were still true(ish) but if the P85D never achieves the same(ish) range as a P85+ then the fact is that Elon and Tesla have lied. I so hope they fix this through software, and that it's fixed soon!�
Dec 28, 2014
darthy001 Agree 100% this will be a PR-nightmare if they cant fix it soon. The press will jump all over this in full force.
BUT what I just realised is that this could easily mean even more Model X delays which would be even worse for them. If they cant manage the efficiency of the dual motors on the S the penalty will be even greater on the X...
Now I am really glad the currency rates USD/NOK went bananas a few weeks ago and stopped me from buying into TSLA...
At the same time I keep thinking that idling the rear motor cant be that difficult can it!?
edit: curiously Norwegian design studio is still showing the equivalent of [email�protected] range numbers and 155mph top speed with no disclaimers about limited top speed like the US design studio is showing now... Communication clearly is not Teslas strong suit
�
Dec 28, 2014
sandpiper Yes, it can be MUCH more complex than that. The when and how to cut two motors with different power curves, in and out while retaining awd traction control, regen and reasonable performance, at a wide range of speeds and commanded accelerations and decelerations is potentially quite difficult. It's not just a matter of cutting out one motor. Screw this up and you'll make the problem worse.�
Dec 28, 2014
Muskol FWIW, I had screenshots saved of the deleted tweets (2/3)
Missing "85D has higher range than 85 when using the same tires. Sport tires have better handling, but 3% to 5% range impact. Tradeoff is worth it"�
Dec 28, 2014
lolachampcar It seems very odd that it is possible to achieve EPA numbers then not ship the car with the same firmware that allowed those EPA numbers in the first place. It would be like pulling a couple of pistons to eliminate pumping losses doing EPA testing then putting them back in for production...... (of course, you can not remove the pistons via an over the air update).�
Dec 28, 2014
bonaire Elon did not found Tesla. Just for the record...�
Dec 28, 2014
Zythryn Because it obviously had to be malicious, or underhanded, right?
If you are at a street corner yelling to announce a sale at a store, then you are notified their is no sale, you stop yelling.
No "hiding" is involved, you simply decide to stop putting out bad information.
The range thing is rather involved and there are still lots of questions.
I'll wait till I hear from one of the local owners that has gone one a trip long enough to test the full range.�
Dec 28, 2014
randompersonx Honestly, I put this into the category of "yet more bad communications from Tesla".
The announcement was already made. If there is a reason to remove the tweet, it needs to be disclosed in whatever form they deem appropriate (Honestly: their blog posts seem like the best place).
It will only be a matter of hours before this forum blows up with everyone convinced that the software update will not be possible (or at least, not any time soon), and will lead to only more cancellations. Like others here have suggested, it also points to more delays with the X if these software updates can't be pushed out soon.
I am stunned at how badly the rollout of the P85D was. This was Tesla's Halo Car. If the announcement was just made initially with lower range expectations and a promise that they would be developing improved software for improved efficiency that may take months, it still would have been a halo car.
The problem isn't too much information, the problem is haphazard incorrect information.�
Dec 28, 2014
darthy001 Are you seriously trying to put a positive spin on _deleting_ tweets like this?
This isnt even close to being similar to announcing a sale that is cancelled at a later stage. They have already had the sale and sold a product not meeting the promised spec. Both range and top speed in delivered cars is _not_ according to what they sold originally, and they are in fact are still selling those "false" specs outside the US with no warnings on limited top speeds or impending range improving firmware.
There is absolutely no doubt the range is worse. Elon would have never made that tweet unless it was true. Evidence from previous P85-owners here backs this up 100% as well. So far there isnt one single datapoint showing similar or improved range. If you still believe there is a glimmer of hope before a firmware-upgrade you havent read the threads posts from the first P85D-owners here.
randomrpersonx sums it up almost perfectly. Tesla has such a big communication issue that it is actually hard to believe they just never learn.�
Dec 28, 2014
bollar This isn't the first time his tweets have been deleted. His tweet in mid-2013 promising "valet mode," and I'm sure others, have been deleted.
Valet Mode! (confirmed by Elon) - Page 7�
Dec 28, 2014
darthy001 Just proves they have no control over comms. They/Elon have done it before and keeps on doing it. They cant continue this way if they want to be taken seriously in the long run.
Luckily for Tesla they are still in a position where customers accept such nonsense, most likely including myself. But that wont continue forever. I know the automotive-press in Norway will be all over this if the firmware isnt updated soon. Can also hear the Jalopniks, seekingalphas, Fox News etc really putting a "nice" spin on the regression of range from Teslas halo car.�
Dec 28, 2014
bonaire Software could be a part of the problem and as such, let's see what comes of firmware upgrades. Balancing acceleration and regen in two disconnected drivetrains at-once needs to be done very well. My only question is "wouldn't this have been on the engineer's minds during design?" Perhaps the issue was there during design, causing Model X delays and then when the D was pushed out in October, they still were working on the power-balance.�
Dec 28, 2014
Krugerrand I didn't see any 'positive spin' being put on it. Rather 'Z' was pointing out that automatically jumping to the worst possible conclusion (and thinking the worst of people and their intentions) right off the bat isn't perhaps the best way to go, nor the most accurate of the situation (or person/people). It's akin to the relationship cheater always looking for and assuming that the partner must also be cheating, when all the partner is doing is trying to organize a surprise birthday party.
Why not just simply wait and see what happens before making claims and getting all worked up? Is that so hard? So he deleted some tweets. Not a big deal. I can think of lots of non-nefarious reasons for doing it. As an example: Elon has said before that it can be difficult to get exacting information across with the character limitation of Twitter. He might have felt that his tweets opened the door for more questions than answers and has decided to tackle the whole thing via another blog.�
Dec 28, 2014
darthy001 Please reread the quote from me that Zythryn quoted. I actually gave Elon the benefit of the doubt and was hoping this was a part of a clean up of communications. But that I have a bad feeling is of course obvious in that quote and later posts.
Had Tesla actually informed the initial owners here that they had limited range and speed _before_ delivery we would have been in a completely different situation. Now all things points to playing catch up and still not being complete honest about what owners can really expect. All info from atesla here has come after they have been caught underdelivering.�
Dec 28, 2014
Krugerrand Yep, reread it several times. Still not seeing 'positive spin on _deleting_ tweets'. Seeing someone who's content to wait and see how it all plays out before coming to a conclusion, good or bad.
I've heard/read this a number of times before about other 'stuff'. The funny thing is even when Tesla gets it right there's always people who find fault. Don't take that as me trying to put a positive spin on the situation, or excusing Tesla any wrongdoings, that's just me stating an interesting fact of what happens in real life.�
Dec 28, 2014
darthy001 Meant my quote not Zyphryns own post. I was far from "jumping to the worst possible conclucions" in that post.
I believe comparing deleting of tweets here to cancelling an announced sale to be a positive spin. If you dont, then we simply disagree on that point.
Your last point about someone akways finding fault is correct, and I have numerous times defended Tesla in such cases myself. But that simply isnt even close to being an excuse here in my mind. Tesla knew they had limited the top speed and missing normal-mode/promised range, and intentionally neglected to inform customers about it in front of deliveries. Then Elon commented on this and deleted his comment soon after. That makes me worried.�
Dec 28, 2014
403portside I think being forced to address the range issue by your customers (rather than being up front about it) and then deleting that very 'forced' communication (ie tweet) is a terrible sign. And I'm frankly shocked.
For those of you that don't use Twitter actively, deleting a tweet usually happens when a public figure makes an embarrassing mistake or says something damaging to themselves or their company, etc. Its the equivalent of publicly saying you were wrong about what you said earlier, because the press will surely pick up on it and write about it that way.
FWIW, I tweeted Elon and Ricardo earlier in the day and asked them to publicly explain the reason why the claimed to exceed the p85 range and now are trying to just get near it. Wonder if that prompted the deletion�
Dec 28, 2014
Krugerrand Yeah, still not seeing positive spin in the announced sale analogy. *shrug*
I have no idea why 'normal' mode isn't yet in the cars. Perhaps at the last minute someone found a bug, and maybe it was considered a serious bug, and maybe because of that and wanting to get the cars to their customers (you know, to make them happy by delivering them on time as promised, before the end of the year, blah, blah, blah), the lessor of the two evils was to block out normal mode, send the cars out, and work on fixing the bug. People get their cars on time, complain anyway because normal mode isn't there (while having fun punching the car in insane mode), Elon tries to alleviate range concerns, people get more upset, have more questions, Elon facepalms seeing that his attempt to assure people it's coming has been thwarted, deletes the tweets with the intent of doing a fully detailed blog, now you're worried, and on and on it goes. I tell ya, it's better than a Wednesday night soap opera.
Don't people have New Year's Eve parties to organize?�
Dec 28, 2014
NigelM Assume that's true, then if Tesla had just communicated that at the time the rest of it (and this entire thread) wouldn't even exist.
Many folks here (myself included) have a tendency to interpret and try to read things into Tesla's various signals; it's a learned behavior and I think Tesla knows they need to improve communications to prevent resulting disappointment. In the meantime, I think it's actually helpful for Tesla to go through these things and hopefully that learning curve someone else mentioned will actually start to turn upwards a little faster.�
Dec 28, 2014
dennis Those who already have their P85D's are busy organizing side-by-side comparisons with the P85. They want to prove that the P85D is less efficient when not operated in the missing efficiency (i.e. Normal) mode. Q.E.D.�
Dec 28, 2014
jerjozwik while i can understand the p85d purchasers gripes, the above statement is why i keep reading all the P85D threads. maybe they have forgotten what "early adopter" status means?�
Dec 28, 2014
danp When did Tesla or Elon claim that the range of the P85D would match or exceed that of the P85? I recall that claim was for the 85D (having 10 more miles of range vs the 85), and that the only goal for the P85D was to match the acceleration of the McLaren F1. This is in the announcement blog post:
Dual Motor Model S and Autopilot | Blog | Tesla Motors�
Dec 28, 2014
Mercury Long time lurker, but you might find this of interest: Tesla Model S P85D Gets Price Slashed By $14,500, Range Now Listed At 285 Miles
Of particular note is the 285 miles shown on the website. A quick Google search for "p85d range" will yield a number of interesting blog entries discussing the changes, including various links showing Tesla indicating the P85D range is higher than the P85.
I followed Tesla for a few years before ordering in August, being a software guy and liking how the company is run like a software development process. When the D announcement came out, I switched over, and a big factor was keeping the range and getting a bit more. Now I'm a few days from "delivery" and I have some pretty serious concerns.
The act of deleting a tweet is socially accepted as one of contrition or concealment. It doesn't matter how you analyze it or deconstruct it, it just is that way: just like farting in an elevator. So while I'm not ready to indict Elon (and Tesla Motors) for false advertising, it is a very big red flag.�
Dec 28, 2014
dennis Agree. Here are the operative words on efficiency from that blog post:
The P85D combines the performance of the P85 rear motor with an additional 50 percent of torque available from our new front drive unit. The result is the fastest accelerating four-door production car of all time � while remaining one of the most efficient cars on the road.
They also claimed 275 miles of range at 65 mph for the P85D, later changed to 285. The S 85 was also shown to have 285 miles of range at a constant 65 mph. So equal at best.�
Dec 28, 2014
wk057 Just did another trip down the highway a little ways, and I must admit that every time I do I get a bit irritated at the numbers. At the efficiency I get on the short trips it is almost cheaper to buy gas for an average vehicle...�
Dec 28, 2014
jerjozwik today that is true, 6 months ago though...�
Dec 28, 2014
JST The window sticker states that the P85D has a better highway efficiency rating than the P85. That suggests that at highway speeds you should see better--or at least equivalent--energy usage and range.
No one has seen that yet.�
Dec 28, 2014
darthy001 This hits the nail square on the head�
Dec 28, 2014
Krugerrand That's entirely a possibility as is communicating normal mode is held up due to whatever, people still get upset, the media catches hold of it, turns it into what they always turn it into and we're exactly where we are now. Because that's never happened before. :wink:
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No, it absolutely would NOT solve the entire issue. You might not be upset, but I guarantee someone else would take your place.�
Dec 28, 2014
Johan Let's have some faith. Elon giveth and Elon taketh away. I know I'm a beleiber.�
Dec 28, 2014
Bet TSLA If the buyer doesn't believe what Tesla says then nothing will help. The truth is that a safety issue could conceivably, tomorrow, mean that Tesla halves the range of all its vehicles. Let's say they discover a serious safety bug in their software, perhaps under certain unusual conditions the batteries may explode. The only quick fix is to go way conservative on range, limiting the amount of charge. What do they do? What do you do?
It's easy. They put out a mandatory software update with a promise to fix the problem as quickly as they can. A few owners say how nice it is that Tesla is taking care of them. But most scream and whine and threaten to sue and so on. Tesla's reputation takes a big hit. The stock temporarily plummets. Pundits wisely intone the doom of the BEV. The non-participants buy popcorn. Eventually Tesla finds a solution and restores things to (almost) as good as they were.
It is to avoid such a situation that quality assurance on new software and hardware at Tesla is so rigorous. It takes time for extensive testing. The system is both complex and closely coupled (an engineering term meaning, more or less, that seemingly unrelated parts affect each other more than one may expect). This means that you're never really sure you've got it right, so all you can do is mitigate risk as best you can. Tesla is both blazing new trails in hardware and going further into software control than anybody else -- this is very dangerous territory.
I am very happy to let others be the early adopters on things like the D. I'm happy to wait for Tesla to say it's gotten various autopilot features right before releasing them. And I'm okay with trusting Tesla to do what it says, although I never count on its timelines. If you are unwilling to trust Tesla, you really shouldn't be owning their cars. If you want the latest and greatest and insist that it works perfectly, you are destined for unhappiness.
The only accurate information that Tesla could provide up front is "We don't know. We'll get there when we get there." The rest is speculation and noise and hope.�
Dec 28, 2014
dennis Which would explain the lawyers making Elon delete the Twitter posts.�
Dec 28, 2014
darthy001 @Bet TSLA I honestly dont get the point of all of this. This isnt something they have fixed retroactively like the autolowering etc. This is something they have sold and not delivered without any info about it from day1. This is done 100% on purpose. So someone has figured out that delivering an unfinished product is OK without telling the customer up front. That is to me NOT OK. I cannot believe that someone actually defends this behaviour from Tesla at this point in time. Unless worried about stock prices. And if you are long on TSLA you should not defend this, because this will hurt Tesla in the long run if they never learn.
I am perfectly fine with autopilot not being enabled yet. I will be perfectly fine if I dont get a heated steering wheel. Autopilot they gave info upfront that it was coming later. Heated steering wheel has never been promised.
Range and speed has been promised and is actually still promised without any change in Norway....
I have never said I expected a perfect car either. If I expected a perfect car I wouldnt even consider thinking about a Tesla. But if Tesla knows that the car they are delivering is less then what I ordered I expect them to tell me and let me have an informed choice of refusing delivery. Otherwise they are tricking their customers deliberately, and that is not good if the press starts writing about it.
And please show me where on the ordering page Tesla states that I am an early adopter that needs be be willing to endure such lousy communication and potentially missing features? Its not like they are giving me a beta-tester discount or similar. So please get of your high horse and stop telling people how they should buy cars.
Will I most likely still buy the car? Yes.
Will I keep talking positively about Tesla to friends and coworkers if my car is delivered with poorer ranger then promised? Hell NO.
and thats a damn shame for such an expensive car�
Dec 28, 2014
Chris Remember how we all got paranoid when they took away the low setting for the air suspension? Took some time but it is now resolved to everyones liking. I am sure the same will happen on the P85D range issue�
Dec 28, 2014
403portside +100. Well said. Getting tired of the 'early adopter' argument. I was an early adopter when I bought last year and will continue to be, but when a feature is promised when I plunk down my hard earned money I expect it to be there. Or at the very least I expect up front communication. I'm also long $TSLA and agree this approach to business is terrible for them in the long run.�
Dec 28, 2014
breser The consequences of the scenario you suggest are what exactly? A bunch of noise and upset customers? That's not so terribly different from what's happening now! Either way there would have been upset people. But there is at least two distinct differences from Tesla communicating about situations like this in advance.
1) It might cause a decrease in sales as more people cancel that would not have with the delayed communication.
2) It at least leaves Tesla in a position of being honest with their customer and letting them make a fully informed decision.
According to Elon's "The House Always Wins Blog," Tesla tries to do deals such that when they fall short they take the hit and not the other party. Sadly, it appears that Tesla has fallen short of this ideal in this case. I'd much rather have the conversation be "Tesla sometimes falls short of their plans, but they're always honest about that."�
Dec 28, 2014
Bet TSLA You, and other complainers here, can buy cars however you like. I don't care. But your expectations are setting you up for disappointment. It should, I think, be clear to you that you will be disappointed. So why are you hurting yourself this way? Buy something that will make you happy.�
Dec 28, 2014
justaddsun Yeah @Chris, but it's this whole process that's a bit of a cluster****. This is Monday morning quarterbacking, but just as many people would have purchased the D upon introduction if it was billed as a badass halo supercar with, say, 25 less miles of range vs a regular P; just a slightly different set of buyers who care less about range would have ordered. Then if Tesla sends out an update 6 months later to give it even better range than a regular P, then that becomes heroic. And then you still get that same set of buyers subsequently ordering that you have now.�
Dec 28, 2014
lolachampcar Chris,
Funny you should mention the ride height thing. I just looked at the PD the other day and "Low" has two fingers between the tire and wheel well now so Standard is the new Low�
Dec 28, 2014
randompersonx So you are saying the P85D is lower than the P85+?�
Dec 28, 2014
darthy001 Two words: no competition...
I am completely sold on electric cars due to the way they drive, and I need at least ~200miles of range even in winter.
So I am "stuck" with Tesla. Actually more annoyed by people trying to justify Tesla in this case than Teslas actions to be honest. I sort of expected something like this from Tesla.... I also expect them to fix it, but why this hopeless communication?:crying:
PS! I love the idea and products behind Tesla and really admire what Elon Musk is able to do, but I will never let poor behaviour like this slip by without "complaining". Saying nothing or making excuses is _not_ helping Tesla reach its longtime goals. That I am 100% certain about.�
Dec 28, 2014
Krugerrand Right, exactly. Thanks for getting the point (sort of, since you then changed your mind). The end result is always the same: somebody isn't happy. So people claiming that it would be any different had they known beforehand are either being na�ve or obtuse.
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...and then you get people complaining that had they known Tesla was going to do a software update 6 months later they'd have purchased a D, waited for the better mileage, and had the car of their dreams. That's how it works around here.
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Wait for it... :biggrin:�
Dec 28, 2014
darthy001 First point is a real difference for me. People unhappy based on accurate information is a risk of doing business and perfectly acceptable. People unhappy due to being kept in the dark is simply bad for business.
Second point I dont see how people can complain about a known/advertised feature actually being implemented 6months later!? Or am I missing some detail in the last update there?�
Dec 28, 2014
breser That is exactly my point. If Tesla is withholding information they knew about the vehicles not meeting the advertised specifications then that is an unethical business practice in my opinion.�
Dec 28, 2014
dennis No, he is saying that the D rides higher.�
Dec 28, 2014
aronth5 And you know this how?�
Dec 28, 2014
lolachampcar Sorry, I should have been clearer.
If memory serves me, I believe my P+ had a little over two fingers distance between the top of the tire (21s) and the fender lip when at Standard height. Low was a little less than a finger. My very quick look at the PD gave roughly two fingers which is a bit lower than my old car in Standard. I did confirm that the PD was in always Low.
"Fingers" are placing your fingers on the top of the tire perpendicular to the direction of travel as a quick way to check ride height.�
Dec 28, 2014
wk057 Accidentally posted this in the Tracking thread first:
�
Dec 28, 2014
dennis I said would explain - none of us actually know what happened. But I subscribe to the theory offered previously by others that the deleted posts (P85D range, longer range battery for the S) represent forward looking statements that are not represented in official Tesla communications. The posts about future capabilities that were not deleted (Roadster upgrade, battery swap "beta") are available as teslamotors.com blog posts.�
Dec 28, 2014
jerry33 And there may be a blog post coming along on the range issue as well.�
Dec 28, 2014
sandpiper i would say that there had better be something coming soon. Much as I think Tesla is a great company, it is not reasonable to advertise a car to deliver one thing and provide another. Nor is it legal. The early adopter argument is not a catchall for every error.�
Dec 28, 2014
yobigd20 I dunno where all you are driving but it's winter time here and efficiency sucks. Optimal efficiency (Tesla's claims) are only valid for 70 degree weather areas. If it's 30 degrees outside 450kw/mi is quite normal.�
Dec 28, 2014
dsm363 It's also entirely possible that Tesla does mess things up now and then. Their communication hasn't been ideal to this point. The people work very hard and I've never met someone who works their that wasn't enthusiastic and working to make things better but that doesn't mean they can do no wrong.�
Dec 28, 2014
dennis +1. Those characteristics, plus their breakthrough agenda and desire to eventually make things right for the customer is why many of us are willing to cut them some slack, even when they screw up.�
Dec 28, 2014
dhanson865 +1
Tires don't like cold, battery pack doesn't like cold, brand new tires on brand new cars are less efficient. We need a few thousand miles on one to break in the tires, wait for a warm day to test.�
Dec 28, 2014
randompersonx I am in Miami. Efficiency does not seem to be anywhere near the promised values.�
Dec 28, 2014
3mp_kwh +1, on top of wlk057 disclosing "62 degrees" in his post?�
Dec 28, 2014
wk057 Yeah, it was quite nice today, actually. Still in the 50s now and it's 9:15PM.�
Dec 29, 2014
AmpedRealtor This is very concerning to me because it tells me there is something very wrong with Tesla's communication strategy - which leads directly to Elon Musk. The P85D should never have been launched when it was, when so much was still unknown. Tesla must have been desperate to stimulate end of quarter deliveries of a high margin vehicle in order to undergo this self-inflicted wound. Either that or Tesla's Board of Directors is taking steps to reign in the comments by their CEO. Either way, this doesn't give me a feeling of confidence. In fact, it makes me feel like they are now trying to hide something. I never thought I'd feel this way about Tesla. I hope I'm wrong.�
Dec 29, 2014
AnxietyRanger I haven't been on this forum very long, but I have been long-time on others, and one thing that always puzzles me is the notion - cultivated by a select few - that criticism hoping to lead to improvement is somehow irrelevant, because no matter what some people will complain. It is a surprisingly common argument to make and obviously a misleading one. It suggests the amount of complaints would be an absolute, always the same, no matter what a company or a person does - hence there shouldn't be such criticism, because that criticism can only lead to more criticism (say, negative press) and doesn't help at all, because it doesn't remove the complaints anyway. That, to simplify a little, seems to be the argument.
I couldn't disagree more. In reality, in my experience, the amount of complaints is quite fluid and very much relative to what is happening in the world. Just because some action A leads to some people complaining, doesn't mean it couldn't lead to a lot, lot less people complaining than action B. Hence, action A can be much better than action B, even if both had some complainers as a result. Us who wish both Tesla and Tesla owners well, would do well to want things that lessen complaints towards Tesla and within the Tesla owner community I think - we or they may never get rid of complaints and disgruntled people, but making their numbers a lot less is still a very worthy cause.
You who want to keep on pushing Tesla to do better in a constructive, even if critical and strict manner where needed, please continue - online, directly, in public, wherever. In the end, Tesla will be better for it, we will be better for it and the world will be better for it.�
Dec 29, 2014
Electrometer Thanks for doing the test, and your energy usage is high. I did a 101 total mile roundtrip, retracing my route to a from a destination. There were 4 of us in the car plus some presents and food etc., call it 600 lbs of weight inclusive. My car had 220 miles on the OD when we started the trip. The route was 90% highway, temperature was 60 degrees, we set the car in range mode, and set the cruise control to 67 mph on the highway. The results:
Total Energy: 39.0 kWh
Avg Energy: 386 Wh/mi
My trip was well below your usage of 455 Wh/mi, and only 5% over your P85.�
Dec 29, 2014
Auzie That is really up to people who purchased P85D to decide, say and act on. My understanding is that customers unhappy with their purchase can return the car.
The whole concept of Tesla is indeed a very desperate one, with unbelievably long odds to beat to stay going concern. The only way Tesla can succeed in a world stacked against it is by rapid innovation and by having support of its customers. Perhaps P85D is not what was promised yet, but it is an upgradable car, likely to be upgraded to much more than what was promised.�
Dec 29, 2014
Krugerrand No, you misunderstand. There's a difference between going to an Internet forum to complain about an issue, rant and rave, threaten lawsuit, etc... than to go to the source and deal directly with that/those which you have issue with. Just because some Tesla employees read this forum, and a resolution to a problem is implemented doesn't make complaining here effective, appreciated by Tesla, or the right way to do things. Certainly not as a first step, or a second, or even a third. But perhaps I'm just being an old fuddy duddy having been taught that if you have a problem with someone, you discuss it directly with them. Where I'm from, going public is a last resort when every other possibility is exhausted AND one has been grievously wronged.
One of the best ways to view any situation is to walk a mile in the other person's shoes, first. If you owned a company like Tesla, trying to change a multi-trillion dollar industry on a shoestring budget (relative), under intense media scrutiny, fighting powerful, well-heeled politicians and organizations, bombarded constantly from all directions for every little thing, you might just have a slightly different opinion about some of the criticism and how it's doled out. There's a reason that several people have commented over the last couple of years that the criticism sometimes comes across as whiny or seemingly from a place of entitlement.
So, no, I don't think anyone is of the opinion that people should never criticize or complain. Time and place for everything. But as often as some want to criticize Tesla's communications (which most? will agree suffers at times), they might want to take a look at how they themselves communicate as well. Never forget that it's another person on the receiving end of that criticism or complaint and think about how you'd feel and react to some of the stuff that gets said on this forum.
If one truly wants to help Tesla, then the criticism needs to be constructive and delivered directly to the person/people who have the power to do something about it. Otherwise it's complaining with intent to help only oneself (time and place for that as well, but don't pretend it's for the good of someone/something else). Of all those who have publically stated that Tesla's communications suck, how many have contacted the head of Tesla's Communications department and either written or spoken directly?�
Dec 29, 2014
Johan I e-mailed Investor relations expressing my concern about Tesla's public communications strategy on this issue (as a car owner and stock holder) but haven't heard back.�
Dec 29, 2014
wk057 I can't speak for everyone, but, I've done this, not that I've received any responses as of yet. I have individually written messages out to many at Tesla regarding the range issue.
I think the issue here is that the concerns are valid, yet too many people feel the need to attempt to dismiss other's valid concerns. Honestly, that's probably the only reason I even bother to continue posting at all about the issue. Nothing has changed, so there really isn't much left to discuss unless some new data is acquired and put into the mix (like my P85 vs P85D efficiency testing I plan on doing.) Yet people with no first hand knowledge of the situation feel the need to belittle the issue, which really isn't acceptable.
Tesla is not perfect, accept this and don't be blinded.�
Dec 29, 2014
jerry33 I've emailed all my complaints to ownership, as I believe that's the correct place to send them. My assumption is that they will pass them on to the correct people (that's what the replies always say). If they haven't, then I've wasted a lot of electrons.�
Dec 29, 2014
darthy001 Tesla is still claiming [email�protected] in Norway so I am waiting with contacting them about this until that changes. Anyway my DS hasnt answered my last emails so not very encouraging anyway. And of course I am polite in my emails.
edit: but many others have written about contacting Tesla and even getting responses from higher-ups as well.�
Dec 29, 2014
AnxietyRanger That hardly relates to my point that "someone always complains" is used as a counter-argument in attempts to discuss improving Tesla's communications and other mishaps. I don't think anyone, least of all Tesla, would be wise to think that "someone always complains" is a reason to stop improving or talking of what and how to improve. Someone may always complain, but in reality improvements can and will lessen the number of disgruntled people - not eliminate the complaints entirely, but possibly significantly lessen them. And that's a valuable goal. That was the point of my message.
As for whom the criticism should be directed, public discourse can be a mighty motivator, but also a helpful peer-support group for those taking part. Many have voiced, even in this thread, that they feel they wouldn't even complain quite as much, or quite as loudly, if they felt heard by their peers. Every time someone feels their legitimate grievance gets responded belittlingly or pushed aside too lightly (don't talk here, press can see you kind of stuff), that is one less person feeling that support from peers. I'm not sure people apologizing for Tesla this way are necessarily doing Tesla or any of us any favours. I doubt Tesla needs any of our apologies, nor do they need us to push aside any issues they may have. A solid dialogue and honest internal camaraderie between/within Tesla and Tesla owners would, to me, sound the best policy. Pushing things aside may just aggrevate the situation, when those feeling not heard tune up the volume in response.
Someone feeling 20-25% range missing from their P85D certainly should deserve to discuss it on a Tesla enthusiast forum, if they so feel, without their motivations or reliability being too hastily questioned. Of course they can be asked for more information and confirmation, I'm not suggesting blindly believing every post either. And Tesla is free to listen or even join the conversation, but even a solid conversation itself can be threpeutic and allow hashing out the extent of the issue amongst the owners. Some letter to someone at Tesla, which may or may not get answered or processed, does not enjoy that benefit.
Of course I think contacting the manufacturer of any product directly, too, is always a good idea.�
Dec 29, 2014
Krugerrand I've read all the threads. Who are these 'too many people' dismissing your concerns as not valid? I didn't see any of that. I have seen people suggest that now that you've voiced those concerns, give Tesla a chance to address them by being patient. What's done is done. It can't be changed. So, constructively moving forward is the best way to continue, no?
All of us here know why the next gen seats aren't in all the new cars. That was entirely out of Tesla's hands, they don't control Port Authorities, truckers, or the weather and many forget that the reason the first set of seats didn't get put in cars was because they didn't have a perfect 5* rating. Tesla deemed if they didn't have a 5* rating, they weren't good enough for their customers. They didn't tell you that. Yep, I know. Everyone who wants the new seats will get them. Remember Tesla does not make the seats, they come from a seat supplier. In the meantime, everyone has got perfectly good, safe seats with which to drive their cars and carry passengers. Right? So, get out there and enjoy those awesome cars!
We know that Elon Musk knows about the range. Can we give the man and his crew some time to resolve it with a firmware update that adds in 'normal' mode? Yep, I understand many were expecting to receive their cars with normal mode already available. None of us knows what happened there. Some automatically want to think nefarious thoughts, when it might be something like a bug was found at the last moment, or they weren't 100 percent happy with the drive quality and didn't want to send it out that way, or, or, or. Yep, I understand you aren't happy about it. Yep, I understand Tesla isn't saying at this point. Presumably you've made your discontent known to the proper people within Tesla. While you're waiting for resolution, enjoy your awesome car.
I don't believe anyone has ever said that Tesla is perfect. Tesla is a group of fallible people, like you and me. Doing the best they can, like you and me. None of this post is a dismissal of your concerns.�
Dec 29, 2014
AnOutsider Well-stated. I always thought those "why are you talking about it here?" arguments were quite silly and dismissive. This is an internet forum centered around Tesla Motors, what else are we supposed to do if not discuss the company and its products whether good or bad?�
Dec 29, 2014
3mp_kwh Come to think of it, I haven't heard anyone say Ford and Kia are perfect either.�
Dec 29, 2014
AmpedRealtor I don't believe you need to purchase a P85D in order to objectively assess Tesla's product launch. Tesla is a small, young and scrappy company. But it will soon find itself with a scarlet letter embroidered on its chest if it continues to miscommunicate on such a high level. I want Tesla to have a good reputation by the time Model 3 is announced. The issues we are seeing with the P85D launch are exactly the kinds of issues that harm a company's credibility. There was no need to launch the P85D in October, Tesla very well could have waited until it had its ducks in a row. To say that Tesla needed to launch when it did would require an explanation of why it was so urgent to do so. The only reason would be end of quarter sales, which leads to an even more serious concern.�
Dec 29, 2014
AnxietyRanger Another perspective to consider: Telling someone with a grievance to go enjoy the product can feel quite dismissive, even if that is not the intent. More so, I have a hard time seeing when such a comment could even be helpful. If I'm not enjoying the product, someone telling me to enjoy it is not going to change things - in any positive way at least. And on the other hand, it sounds like people with a grievance couldn't already be enjoying the product too. Many of such people are, they just have this grievance they want to discuss in addition. "Go enjoy the product" sounds like an attempt at a conversation killer and that's why it easily sounds dismissive, even when it may have just been helpful encouragement. Often a far more effective way at positively bringing a discussion to conclusion is to leave the other party with the feeling they were heard and have them shutdown on their own.
These are not mutually exclusive things: one can discuss Tesla's issues and still enjoy their Tesla, both the car and the company.�
Dec 29, 2014
Krugerrand Someone always does complain. That's a fact and as valid a point as any, particularly when the original complaint is phrased: If Tesla had done this, then all would be fine in the world. Because that's simply not true. What is far more accurate is: If Tesla had done this instead of that, then *I* would be happy in this moment. There are plenty of people who aren't the least bit upset about their P85D car.
Okay, so how much more can be discussed about Tesla improving their communications? What hasn't already been said? Has the criticism to date been effective? Are we beating a dead horse at this stage? Are we getting different? better? results than 6 months ago? a year ago? Criticize away, but it does Tesla (and arguably us) no good unless it's getting results. This isn't the first crack at the communication can on this forum.
I've been on this forum long enough to have see plenty of comments posted and the tigers come out and go up one side of Tesla and down the other only to have it discovered that the information posted was bogus. Again, all of this works both ways. You don't want people to have their motivations or reliability being too hastily questioned and yet that's exactly what some people do to the people who make up Tesla. Elon deletes a couple to twitter posts and he's suddenly the Antichrist. This is the nature of some people, to think the worst of others and that they're out to get them. This is not a battle of Tesla VS The Consumer, and yet that's exactly how it's coming across from some.
I, personally, don't do complaint letters/e-mails unless I have a solid relationship with the person on the other end. Too easy for the person on the hot seat to avoid it, not answer it, claim they didn't get it. I'm all about good, old fashion face to face (phone call works fine); I bought a P85D and just took delivery. Man, I love how it accelerates. I've noticed, though, that it doesn't have 'normal' mode in the options and as a result my range sucks. Oh, you don't know when that'll be implemented? Would your manager know? How about the Regional Manager? I'm sorry to be hassling you about this since I know there isn't anything you can do about it, but I just paid quite a bit for this car and I was under the impression I could expect my range to be such and such per the Tesla website. I also saw a video online of the launch event and Elon Musk said such and such. It's imperative I have that range otherwise I can't use the car for its intended purpose. If you can't direct me to someone who can help me, then I'd like to make an appointment to return the car as I did not receive the product as advertised.
I imagine that if someone high enough up was receiving enough of those kinds of forwarded messages and phone calls, consumers would hear right quick. But if you're of the mind to go all public on Tesla and think that's the best way to go about it, then why mess around on an enthusiast forum at all? Why not go for the throat and post on their FB page, or Tweet Elon directly? That's a couple million people worth of exposure.
Nobody is dismissing anyone's valid concerns. Nobody is suggesting Tesla is perfect. Nobody is saying that criticism of Tesla isn't sometimes warranted. We simply have a group of people who differ in opinion on what's worth getting our panties tied in a knot over.
- - - Updated - - -
It is within one's ability to choose to be offended or not, regardless of intent. If you don't want to enjoy your awesome car, then don't. It's your right. If you want to be offended by me wanting you to be less upset and more happy, and to enjoy your car while we wait for Tesla to resolve the issue, have at it. If you feel it's more rewarding to wind yourself up over and over and over again, I'm okay with that too. Seriously.�
Dec 29, 2014
AnxietyRanger Of course. But my point was, "someone will always complain" is still misleading. Not all actions (or inactions) produce equal amounts of disgruntled people. We should strive for actions that minimize complaints.
I hope you don't mind me saying, but there seems to be some on this forum who are very sensitive to perceiving Tesla being attacked. Quickly suspicious, yet seemingly always in Tesla's benefit. I have gathered that certain history on this forum is behind this, perhaps humanely very understandable reactions too. I am not unsympathetic to the past, nor to the underdog status Tesla has and some identify with - even myself to an extent, living in a market where driving a Tesla or an EV is really pioneering still. But I think people would do well to be wary of getting "panties tied in a knot" (to quote you) over Tesla criticism either. It doesn't do anyone good to be over-suspicious of fellow-posters, yet be under-suspicious of anything Tesla does. In reality we should suspect both *and* give leeway to both as well. That's the objective way.
Probably because very few people are actually on any such mission to go "all public". People come here looking for support from their peers - and have a reasonable expectation of people at Tesla reading too, as a bonus. Think of the recent case of smoke in the cabin after supercharging. That kind of stuff is a hard discussion to have, when a part of the delegation were quick to focus on questioning the poster and homing in on the mods made to the car, without offering any reason why those might be the cause, even Tesla's reference to the mods sounded unspecific. Some even felt duped because the poster didn't mention the mods immediately, perhaps fast suspecting the poster had a malicious intent, instead of talking about what could cause this, if anything.
To me it seemed like it got quite emotional quite fast, with little regard to the possibility that the poster had a real safety worry with their car. It became the third degree instead. A very likely possibility is, the poster probably just wanted untainted experiences, had anyone gone through something similar. The minute the mods came up, the entire discussion died down because it became easy to dismiss everything as "the mods did it", so it feels like he had some reason to be wary of such reactions. I would say that thread had too little scepticism in the Tesla direction and a bit too much towards the poster and his mods. In that case the poster also already had contacted Tesla and came here, when they felt stonewalled there. Clearly places like this serve a purpose and, at their best, can provide helpful answers too. I mean, it isn't the first time in the history of the world that a car manufacturer's repairs end unsatisfactorily and deserve an online hashing over what to do next to move forwards. Most people just want solutions, they don't want ambulance chasing or fifteen minutes of fame.
All this said, I don't doubt misinformation gets posted both intentionally and unintentionally. I'm rooting for a balance, that's all. There is bogus info coming out of members and from Tesla, mostly unintentionally on both sides probably. Sometimes it feels critical to Tesla posts - or posts that seem like they could escalate into critical - get a fairly rough handling. In my opinion we would do good to worry equally about community members' and Tesla's fair treatment, not just over one or the other.
As for is the feedback helping, is Tesla changing? I don't know, but I do think where successful dialogue ensues, posters get something out of it that helps them get informed, cope, vent. I would like to think such team spirit also has some leverage when reaching out to Tesla, if nothing else in helping hash the issues out prior to discussing them with Tesla, so that communications with Tesla can be more effective.
Well, as we have been going tit-for-that, I am not really offended by anything at the moment - all this is fair game, your comment there included. I will think about it. In reverse, I do think mine too was a genuinely helpful-meaning suggestion. Perhaps try not ask people to "go enjoy the car" if you get such urge, see if skipping produces better results comms-wise.
As for my Tesla the car, I'm very happy with it, thank you.�
Dec 29, 2014
basvk How many P85D's have been delivered until today, and how many objective reports are there about diminished range?
These are the very first batch of P85D production cars coming out of the factory, with a significantly different drivetrain, especially in the front. We are comparing the efficiency (the hardest part to get right) of these first cars with the efficiency of calibrated and continuously tweaked and improved (and probably well worn in) prototype cars on which they based their efficiency numbers. Think about the amount of hours that engineers have driven in those prototype cars, tweaking and tweaking to get it right, and how many hours they spent inside the first new cars that rolled out of production.
Do you remember how much trouble there was with the early sigs wheel alignments, caster settings, batteries, etc. As an engineer, I believe it is almost impossible to get the first batch out to be perfect.
I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the efficiency issues are caused by slight differences from the prototype cars (be it wheel alignment settings, parts that have not yet worn in, tolerance differences, ride height differences). Add in some software that still needs tweaking, and you get where you are now.
Maybe instead of comparing a P85D's efficiency with a well worn in P85 that had 3 realignments, drive train and battery changes and 10 software upgrades, lets compare it with an early sig with SW version 1 and see how it fairs then in the efficiency department...
And trust Tesla to do the necessary to improve the car just like they did on the S85s and P85s until it surpasses the numbers they have measured with their prototype cars.
And yeah, Tesla really needs to figure out how to do communication so that customers stay happy during this unavoidable period of improving first series production cars...�
Dec 29, 2014
breser They've had nearly a month to reply to the public consternation on the issue starting with the first pictures of the P85D window sticker (at least I recall it was early December that showed up). Other than the tweet Tesla has said pretty much nothing on the subject (I'm sure some employees have replied to some people privately to various degrees). Even the tweet felt forced by complaints. I recall posts talking about customers (including a certain famous one) going to the service center to complain about this performance in the days leading up to the tweet. Yet here we are with the only public response to the issue now deleted.
I've got no issue with them taking time to provide the fix. But some public communication that isn't deleted and that sits on a blog is warranted. I say this as someone who has an 85D on order and would like to know what happened with the P85D range since I'm now questioning if I should believe the range that's currently listed for the 85D. The delay in providing an accounting for what happened (not a solution or even an explanation of the coming solution) is eroding my trust.
Yes I have voiced my concerns to Tesla.�
Dec 29, 2014
heems Like! I am sure the complaints have been heard. Now give Tesla a chance to reply...�
Dec 29, 2014
skilly Seems like there are two camps that agree on one thing. The first is somewhat angry and upset about range and the other acknowledges the issue and points to patience as a virtue to let TM work through this. Neither disagree that it is a problem. I have been driving this car for a while like I was carrying a scolding hot cup of coffee between my legs, and I don't think there is a hope of getting to the 242/250 rating currently advertised (let alone the previous much higher rating that was silently dropped from the advertising with no notice to those that purchased under those conditions). I sit between the two camps - I do certainly feel misled but understand the nature of their development cycles and do expect "some form" of solution in the coming months. No one can be happy that they got less than TM promised - I didn't get a discount, so Im expecting them to do their part (eventually) just like the due bill for the seats.
The car is great - no doubt. The range is a problem - whether you need it charged more frequently or worse, can't see yourself making it through an unforeseen commute...the bottom line is the usefulness of the car is less while this remains an issue. Now, besides TM clearly needing a new media and communications team, Im curious about the camp that points to patience. With the early releases of the car, have their been updates to optimize the range? Moreover, has the range been over promised and under delivered in the past in such a major way before? Mr Musk first tweeting and then deleting is a big concern...not sure how to wrap my head around that (I know its the origin of this thread).�
Dec 29, 2014
bluenation if i were you, i'd assume, based on well evidenced history, that the 85d range is, at most, similar to the 85, and likely a bit less.�
Dec 29, 2014
dennis I am in the second camp, and expect them to deliver on the 242/250 EPA rating in the future. I don't see any inconsistency between those numbers and 285 miles at a constant 65 mph. I also view all of those numbers the same way I view the 300 miles of Ideal range that was first announced for the S 85 before it had an EPA rating and still exists in the software to this day. All of these are numbers that are theoretically possibly, but I don't expect to achieve them in real world driving conditions. However none of them are even theoretically possible with today's P85D firmware, so I'm waiting for Tesla to fulfill its promise through an update. I plan to take delivery of my P85D in February even if they haven't shipped the update by then.�
Dec 30, 2014
Vger And what history is that?
Go back and watch the "D" event video. Elon clearly states that they are NOT DONE optimizing the dual motor software, and that it will improve in a number of ways, over the coming months.
There is a good reason that the 85D is taking longer to get out, and I am sure that optimizing the range is one of those reasons. If on April 1 the 85D is a not EPA rated for higher range than the S85, you can call me a fool. I will even come over to Vancouver so you can call me a fool to my face.
Some of us have been working with Tesla a wee bit longer than others, and we have ACTUAL history going back 5-6 years that informs our confidence.�
Dec 30, 2014
AnxietyRanger As the appeal to authority or seniority seems a recurring theme, hopefully nobody minds a comment about that. It is of course true that sometimes prior knowledge and historical information are invaluable. At other times they may be a hinderance that limits views. It is hard to say which is which, at any given time, since past action is never a guarantee of future performance either. I would not dismiss the concerns of a newcomer, anymore than I would of an old hat, but assess each on the merits - not on the seniority.
A lot of people, to varying degrees, seem to agree this is one more in a long line of PR blunders by Tesla. At the very least they should communicate better. I think it is fair to say, historically, Tesla has been bad at this and continues to be. It is not just that the buying public is irritable, Tesla too clearly has dropped that ball many times. Now, for the engineering side the past view is kinder, I agree. There is reason to expect Tesla to keep iterating and improving and making such changes available to existing vehicles - an industry unstandard Tesla practice, for which rightfully we should applaud them.
Tesla's public information gave no reason to expect such significant lackings in P85D range. No matter some attempts to sugarcoat it, it simply is not supported by what was heard from Tesla before they started backtracking. That is a PR mistake (and continues to be with the missteps like disappearing tweets and silence), hopefully not intentional misleading, possibly an engineering mistake (at least scheduling wise) and it is an issue with the whole sales contract as well, because money and product already exchanged hands. So, there are many aspects which people comment on. People agree on some, disagree on others. It is a multi-faceted issue.
It may well be that people familiar with Tesla have good reason to be confident the range gets fixed. I, too, expect the range to get better after future updates. But, equally, people familiar with Tesla have good reason to think Tesla is making the same mistakes over and over again when it comes to launching half-finished or late products and communicating badly about them. The "fix as you go, release as you get ready" mentality doesn't work very well if silence or confusing comms is constantly eroding trust. That, too, seems to be a Tesla legacy. I'm not sure it is one they would like to have. Tesla probably needs to be even more open if they wish to sell product in such an unconventional manner.
Improving communications would be the easy fix, as a starters. I must admit by now I feel the decision to stay silent is starting to look like an attempt to contain the issue, rather than just being busy with the fix. That, in itself, isn't the image I'm hoping Tesla to project. Hopefully they hear and improve soon, so that some goodwill and trust isn't lost.
I doubt any of us who frequent this place want Tesla to be hurt, quite the contrary. Same we want for Tesla customers and owners, of course. We just differ in our opinions on how to best help Tesla - and Tesla customers - to avoid such hurt.�
Dec 30, 2014
jerry33 1. Tesla often lets their enthusiasm get ahead of their communication skills. It's almost a given that when Elon tweets, he's basing them on the cars that are in the prototype stage with the very latest alpha enhancements rather than what's in production. The only way to fix this is to stop announcing things--but then no one will get excited and Tesla will become just like every other car manufacturer. I'd hate to see that happen.
2. In six to nine months this will be another solved problem, and we'll move on to the next issue (and there's zero doubt there will be a next issue).
3. It's a problem in the mean time--just like the excessive tire wear was a major problem.�
Dec 30, 2014
AnxietyRanger Why would or should it be an either-or kind of thing, though? The only way to fix this isn't to stop announcing things, the other way to fix it is by improving the communications. At least two ways spring to mind, if Elon would as enthusiastically communicate corrections to past mistakes and misunderstandings, that would be helpful in setting the record straight faster. Or if Elon would stop announcing things prematurely and start announcing them at a better time, all things considered, that too would help. Neither scenario would require to stop communicating.
It sounds a bit odd to suggest the only way Tesla and/or Elon could communicate is the current one and the only alternative would be silence.
Silence, of course, can also be a differentiator. In tech Apple and Steve Jobs used it to great effect. Perhaps a little less great in the Tim Cook era. But I'm not suggesting Tesla should imitate Apple, they should have their own flare and style. That flare and style can remain, even if they adjust to fix the issues their communications are currently having. Tesla can be an even more awesome company.�
Dec 30, 2014
Lump Delete news spreading, insideevs.com Elon Musk Tweets Then Deletes: 85D Actually Has Higher Range Than Model S 85�
Dec 30, 2014
dennis I'm surprised it took this long, given the volume of chatter here on this issue.�
Dec 30, 2014
uselesslogin I don't know if it makes any of y'all feel better but I noticed he also deleted this reply:
Note, you can see replies here: Tweets with replies by Elon Musk (@elonmusk) | Twitter
(and see that it is no longer there)�
Dec 30, 2014
403portside I have an ongoing email thread with Jerome and just asked him again, point blank, whether the 285 miles @ 65 mph claim was valid. His response was to point to the EPA numbers, 242 with 21s and 250 with 19s, and says these numbers are being released by the EPA soon.�
Dec 30, 2014
darthy001 Easy follow-up would be to point out that [email�protected] is still listed in Norway and Canada at least.�
Dec 30, 2014
403portside Will do�
Dec 30, 2014
ItsNotAboutTheMoney The CHAdeMO adapter was supposedly to be ready by December ... 2013. It's still only in beta, because, well we _think_ it's compatibility issues but we don't know because Tesla isn't saying.
Version 6 of the firmware was supposed to be released last January and have more in it that it did. No more mention of real-time weather-based route planning.
The Model X was supposed to be released, er, I can't remember now, and it's been sliding at least 1 month every quarter.
AutoPilot/Driver Assist is being sold, but it has two pretty useless features that are easy to include because nobody's really going to care if they don't work well. Adaptive cruise, which is what people really want, has to work well and that's just under development.
Dual motor was sold with the claim of it helping efficiency, but right now we only have the P85D which is less efficient than the P85 was, and by the way, they're still working on the efficiency thing, and there are no 85Ds being delivered and we don't even know whether the 85D will actually be delivered with better efficiency than the 85.
The problem is not that he's tweeting about stuff, it's how he's tweeting, selling stuff that's really just in development as if it's ready, or nearly ready, and it's not only not nearly ready, it's not even guaranteed to be released. If he stuck to treating Tesla development work as development work, avoided expression of certainty on dates, and then gave progress updates and reasons for delays Tesla would still be a cool company, doing cool stuff and they could still get people to pay to get on waiting lists for items, but at least people on the list would know what they're getting into.
Maybe all of this will come together when the Model X With AutoPilot and CHAdeMO adapter is released.�
Dec 30, 2014
crazybrit I am sure it was the reference to the "several crisis issues" that got that one deleted.�
Dec 30, 2014
AmpedRealtor You forgot to mention the center console, but that would just add insult to injury.
Your post is spot on and says all of the things I have been thinking. When I bought the Model S, enthusiasts encouraged me by saying that Tesla under-promises and over-delivers. That was surely the case with the RWD cars and P85, which had tested 0-60 times that were measurably faster than Tesla's claim. Since then, and since the departure of George Blankenship, I feel that Tesla has been over-promising and under-delivering. I feel like Tesla wants us to know that they aren't standing still, and that's fine, but the way they are doing it is hurting their credibility. Personally I would appreciate less hype and more finished products. Even if that means silence from Tesla for months on end. That's okay with me. Surprises are fun and exciting, disappointment is not.
Say hello to Tesla's VP of Communications and Marketing...
In March of this year, Tesla hired Simon Sproule away from Nissan as VP of Communications and Marketing. He started his job in April. Here we are just 8 months later and with more communications missteps by Tesla than I can remember. I believe this individual has responsibility here. What is he doing? Can anyone point to anything that this person has done to actually improve Tesla's communications? As far as I'm concerned, comms have gone downhill since he started.�
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