Sep 13, 2015
Krugerrand Oh, please. You're being purposely obtuse now about the cost requirements to maintain the old Ranger policy. Not one OEM or dealership offers such a service. With the ever increasing cars around the world, customers getting more and more spread out, and the inability to open service centers in a number of states because of dealership laws, Tesla can't possibly hire enough people, fast enough and then pay them regular hours let alone over time hours. Tesla can't even keep up with all the other things on their plate like AP, launching vehicles, factory expansion, service center expansion, and on and on.
I said nothing of the sort, nor did I suggest it. I clearly stated, sometimes policies have to change and people aren't always going to like it. Period, end of story.
It's not ridiculous for a company to change policy as it's required. Happens every single day with tens of thousands of companies.
Tesla isn't about selling six-figure cars. It's about accelerating the world to sustainable transport. As it stands now, they're selling more six-figure cars than they can make. And interestingly enough, despite a handful of vocally unhappy people, most people are quite content with the wheels their driving around and the service they are getting from Tesla.�
Sep 13, 2015
Doug_G I'm aware of that... however, try enforcing a verbal contract in court. You have to prove it exists. If any paper contracts exist, they will override whatever verbal promises were made.�
Sep 13, 2015
Andyw2100 I'm not being purposely obtuse at all. You suggested that Tesla would go out of business if they had to provide the services they promised to existing customers, and I said that I did not agree, and that Tesla had serious problems if you were correct about that.
The fact that other car companies aren't offering these services is irrelevant. Other car companies are established, and thus offer many more options to their customers with respect to where service can be obtained. More importantly, other car companies --DID NOT PROMISE-- this service as a condition of purchase, before their cars were sold. Tesla did.
As for Tesla not being able to keep up with the things on their plate, dealership laws stacked against them, etc, none of this changed overnight. Tesla had the ability to recognize what was going on, and change their policy as needed, in time to make sense for their business, and for their business model. The fact that they may have recognized the problem too late should not be the customers' problem. I have said from the beginning that if Tesla feels the need to change their policy, that is their prerogative: they just can't change it for customers who have already purchased their vehicles.
Well, that is what you said.
And this:
The above absolutely support my writing:
But it is ridiculous for them to change their policy and have it apply to previous customers who purchased when a completely different policy was in effect. It is completely unfair, completely unethical, and probably (though I am not an attorney) illegal. It is the kind of thing shady companies try to do, if they think they might be able to get away with it. It is definitely not the kind of thing any of us ever expected from Elon Musk and Tesla.
You can keep saying that as often as you like, and keep attacking the arguments made by those of us who have anything negative to say about the company that you love so much. But the reality of the situation is that your saying that doesn't make it true. And you know, from reading the forums over the last few months, that there are a lot more unhappy people over a lot more issues than, say, a year ago. We've had the console issue, the auto pilot software issue, the horsepower issue, the navigation system issue, the multiple buggy firmware release issues, the efficiency issues, the misleading marketing on the website issues, and I'm only naming a few of them. This can only go on so long before it really hurts Tesla. In fact, I'd argue that it already --IS-- hurting Tesla.
You can keep trying to shout us down, but if I were you, I'd think of us as canaries in the coal mine. We're letting Tesla know something is wrong in time for them to act on it, before there's a catastrophe. Tesla can keep ignoring the dying canaries, but how well does doing that usually work out for the coal miners?�
Sep 14, 2015
ProSkeptic The bigger issue would be Tesla's ability to move down-market. The perception, right or wrong, that the Model S and Model X are 'rich man's toys' will still exist, but when a potential buyer in 2019 is weighing a Model 3 against a Toyota Avalon Hybrid, the stories of unkept promises and shoddy communication will weigh much more heavily on the purchase decision than will the buyer's desire to see Tesla succeed.�
Sep 14, 2015
stopcrazypp I think I noted it before, but none of what Tesla has written and probably what the reps said specifies that it would be available forever (or life of the owner/car and whether it is transferable). This is quite different with the supercharger policy (which is explicitly for the life of the car). I remember there are those that tried to get it in writing, but failed.
And the bit about verbal contracts is that the onus is on the plaintiff to provide proof. If you don't have a recording, an independent witness, or something written, then it's going to be really tough to prove. Also, I'm not sure when something a Tesla store rep says is considered a contract or considered advertising (the lawsuit would be vastly different). I guess it will depend on if it was said as a condition of buying (like when you were signing your purchase contract) or if it was just off-hand while you were researching the car.
There's also called the Statute of Frauds that require certain contracts to be written (not oral) and also the statue of limitations for oral contracts is 2 years in and written is 4 years in California. Those also play a factor.
Also I'm pretty sure some did have a service contract that specified the $100 Ranger service (so it would be valid for the life of that contract). That could be used by Tesla as a counter example compared to contracts that leave that out.�
Sep 14, 2015
Andyw2100 Unless you think Tesla employees would lie under oath, it's not going to be difficult to prove what the policy had been. Any number of customers could testify to what the policy was explained to them as, and then a few Tesla employees could be called as witnesses, and questioned as to how they were told, by Tesla, to explain the policy. There may even be some sort of training manual, with sample questions and answers.
The bottom line is I don't think Tesla would attempt to contest the fact that customers living at a distance from service centers were told what we were told.
The issue then becomes does Tesla have the right to change that policy after the fact.
And again--let's put the discussion of the legality or illegality of this aside for the moment. Do you think it's right? Do you think the general public will think it's right? Will the general public want to do business with a company that pulls stuff like this on customers that have just dropped six figures on a car?�
Sep 14, 2015
jerry33 What I know is that I paid the extra $100 for unlimited Ranger service. I've only had to use it once, but it was a real lifesaver when it happened.�
Sep 14, 2015
stopcrazypp They can plead the fifth or say they don't remember, they are not required to say self incriminating testimony as you imply. Having other owners would not help unless they were there while the contract was made to you. However, I think most likely what will happen is that they will say that at the time $100 Ranger was available, but they had to change the price. That would not be a violation of contact (even assuming it can be considered one) if it was not promised that the price would be the same forever.�
Sep 14, 2015
Andyw2100 OK, I'm not an attorney, but I'm 99% certain the fifth amendment has absolutely no relevance here. The Tesla employees being asked "What did you tell people the policy was?", or "What were you instructed to tell people the policy was?" would not be incriminating themselves by answering truthfully.
And to suggest that they would say they don't remember is suggesting that they would lie. Perhaps you think that little of Tesla employees, but I don't. I think most would answer truthfully, and explain what they were instructed to tell customers.
As for talking to other Tesla owners, the point would be to establish what Tesla policy was. And again, I don't see Tesla trying to deny that what their policy was. It is widely known.
Your argument that there was no guarantee that the policy would continue is the only issue that could be reasonably discussed. I'd argue, if I were arguing the case, that when a company says "this is our policy" when a customer asks how they will get service for the car they are considering purchasing, the answer given is understood to reasonably apply at least for the expected life of the car.
Let's take another approach, since you seem so anxious to point out the lack of having things in writing, lack of contracts, etc.
What would your position be if Tesla announced tomorrow that because their service centers were losing money, they were closing all of them, and consolidating all service for all Teslas in Fremont, California. The warrantys on all cars are still valid, of course, but it's the owner's responsibility, as it is now, to bring the car to Fremont for service. But don't worry. If you can't easily bring the car to Fremont yourself, Tesla will valet it there for you, at $3 per one-way mile.
Did you have a guarantee that Tesla wouldn't do that? Do you have a contract that says Tesla has to maintain a certain number of service centers, with a certain geographic distribution? Do any of us?
Does this seem like a ridiculous situation?
Perhaps it does, but for those of us who live hundreds of miles from the nearest service center, it's not all that different from the situation we now find ourselves in.�
Sep 14, 2015
Doug_G I've used it many times; I was smarter than I realized grabbing the full 8 years right away.
My car is in Montreal right now, and I have a base 60 in my garage. Okay not sexy but it does have the autopilot stuff, so it was fun to try out the adaptive cruise.�
Sep 14, 2015
stopcrazypp That's one of the big points. I'm willing to forgo the rest since I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not qualified to speculate too much on the other matters.
Ironically, that is exactly what a lot of people in the stock market say Tesla will be doing if Tesla keeps burning money at the rate they are doing right now (which this new policy is supposed to address). Tesla was supposed to break even on service and charging a flat rate of $100 regardless of distance obviously doesn't do that. There's a lot of goodwill gestures that does help Tesla's reputation, but may not be financially sustainable as the Tesla owner fleet goes in size.
Personally, unless I had it in writing that the $100 Ranger service would be available for the life of the car (some people say warranty), I would not automatically assume the rate will stay the same. A reasonable person would assume they would have to adjust the price even if for inflation, natural increase in wages and fuel prices. That's why in a similar thread where people suggest that a person without home charging and intend to depend on supercharging for all their charging to go ahead and do that, I also suggested them to get it in writing and to have a plan B if they couldn't.�
Sep 14, 2015
Andyw2100 So this doesn't count, in your mind:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/creating-world%E2%80%99s-best-service-and-warranty-program-0
--
Valet Service
Your time is valuable and should not be spent driving to or waiting at our service centers. Tesla is putting in place a valet service, so that your car is seamlessly picked up and replaced with a loaner and then returned as soon as we are done. There is no additional charge for this.
--�
Sep 14, 2015
stopcrazypp That does not say how long that is valid for, just that they are announcing that policy. I don't believe that policy (which is about valet) is what this thread is discussing, but someone who tried to push to get in writing a guarantee that the valet service would be valid for the life of the car, got a response that it was an internal policy that was subject to change:
http://my.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/valet-service-not-guaranteed
Thus I think the default assumption when something is not in writing explicitly should be that it is always subject to change. People who assume otherwise seem to be those that are burned.�
Sep 14, 2015
Andyw2100 The way the ranger and the valet service were explained to me they are definitely related. Of course since it's not in writing, I guess you won't view it as relevant. But what I was told was that the Ranger service was ($100 per visit / later someone else, upon learning I lived further than 200 miles from a service center, told me the $100 did not apply, and it was actually free) and that if the Ranger Service could not deal with the particular problem on site, the car would be valeted to the nearest service center instead. Additionally, just before I was to receive my car, a regional delivery manager explained that they actually preferred to valet the cars to and from the service centers, instead of sending rangers out, because if they sent a ranger out to me that would be a tech out of service and unable to service cars the entire time he was driving. Instead the service center had much lower level people, with less training, who could drive the cars around. So that was the option that was preferable to them: valet over ranger.�
Sep 15, 2015
Doug_G That is certainly true. Over the last five years I have gone from 100% Ranger service to 95% Valet service. The switchover started last year.�
Sep 16, 2015
Doug_G LOL I just had a random thought chatting about this over dinner. I could sell my car to someone in Newfoundland, and Tesla would be thereafter be obliged to provide the new owner with "anywhere" service for the next 5+ years.�
Sep 16, 2015
Andyw2100 Of course that doesn't mean they'd actually do it...�
Sep 16, 2015
Mayhemm As much as I love my Model S and the company in general, if they can't do business without cutting and running on their customers and hire executives that aren't capable of making smart decisions (ie: coming up with programs and policies that have a hope in hell of actually working) then they, sadly, don't deserve to exist. This is precisely the argument I've used against the dealership model. I wouldn't take this crap from GM and I won't take it from Tesla either. If they can't stand on their own two feet and succeed without special pleading and protections, they shouldn't be in business. I'm not going to make a special exception for Tesla Motors (nor should I be expected to) just because they talk a good game and make a great car.
At the time of my purchase (2014 Q2) I was led to believe that Valet and Ranger services were two sides of the same coin. If you lived close to a service center (~50 miles), you would get Valet service. If you were further away, Ranger service was for you.
Not really, since part of this discussion is dealing with whether or not Tesla can actually be held to past policies or statements. Who's to say they couldn't just retcon the transferablility of the warranty out like they did with the Ranger service?�
Sep 16, 2015
stopcrazypp My impression was the Valet was free (when available and within a certain radius), but Ranger always cost money ($100 minimum). Of course, the Service Center may have used the two interchangeably (substitute one for the other as convenient).
I think the difference is that they have a written service contract that specified the service. The people with those service contracts are still having those honored AFAIK. There is very clear-cut contract law preventing Tesla from backing out of those without penalty. Whereas in the case of people getting verbal promises from certain Tesla employees, contract law does not necessarily cover.�
Sep 18, 2015
Doug_G They would have to - I have a contract. It says that the service plan transfers with the car. The service plan was paid for in full, and they can't just take my money and not honor it. They'd get sued.�
Sep 18, 2015
Andyw2100 Tesla has been doing a number of things lately that is likely to result in them getting sued. What's one more?�
Sep 24, 2015
Breezy I read through this thread and another one regarding changes to Tesla Ranger Service.
I must have missed it: What rates does Tesla charge now for Ranger service? Is it $3/mile one way? I understand that rates start at $100 per call within a certain distance, but what is that distance?
I live 200 km from the nearest Service Centre.�
Sep 24, 2015
AnOutsider I've asked several times and have not been able to get a firm answer. Someone at HQ actually said it varies by SC.�
Sep 25, 2015
tezco Yes, Tesla is having trouble establishing uniform policies and procedures throughout it's service system. See also Charge for Winter/Summer Tire Swapping.�
Oct 30, 2015
Andyw2100 Anyone who was following this thread would probably be interested in this recently started one:
Tesla Valet service goes POOF!!!�
Dec 7, 2015
CraigJensen I just had a rude awakening on this very point (Ranger service). I have been an extremely happy Model S owner for nearly three years, and I put in a reservation for a Model X nearly three years ago. Concerned about service in Montana, before plunking down my $5K, I called Tesla Motors and was assured that my car would be serviced by Rangers for $100 per trip. When invited to configure about a week ago, I asked again and Tesla HQ confirmed with the nearest service center (Salt Lake City) that Ranger service to Montana would be $100. I placed my order and then, surprise! The Tesla sales rep told me they had changed their policy and there would now be a $1,000 surcharge for each service. I canceled the order.
Remember this quote from Elon Musk: "Each piece of the customer experience should be world class.
I've told Tesla service division that their job is to NEVER make a profit. Operate the business at the zero profit point.
Regular franchises make most of their profits on the service, not on the sale. This isn't good."�
Dec 7, 2015
Andyw2100 And while this is really lousy for you, having waited all this time, having been told just a week ago about the $100 ranger service, and having just placed your order, as bad as it is, at least you still had the option to cancel your order and part ways with Tesla. In that respect you are in a stronger position than those of us who already took delivery of our vehicles, and then learned of the policy change.
The point that I and others have been making all along is that if Tesla really feels they must change their policies, they may do so going forward, and risk losing business from people like you. But they have an obligation to people like me, who purchased based on the promises made before I purchased, and the policies in place at that time.�
Dec 8, 2015
CraigJensen Further to my post of a few days ago, I have since managed to work things out satisfactorily with Tesla and have �uncanceled� my order for a Model X 90D in Montana. I still feel strongly about the lack of affordable service in Montana and have urged Tesla to provide a better solution for the hopefully short interim period before we have a Tesla Service Center in Bozeman. In the meantime, if the car is too costly to service, I'll sell it to someone who lives closer to a service center or, if it holds up well, I'll just enjoy it immensely.�
Dec 8, 2015
brianman Hurray! Montana is a great place for Tesla to get good feedback on how the X it "handling", um, "non-California" environments. Please make sure you give them feedback on concerns you have so that the products improve.
Are you able to give us details?�
Dec 8, 2015
CraigJensen I was assured (verbally, nothing in writing) by their service manager that they want me to be absolutely satisfied with my new Model X, including its service. We went through various potential scenarios: routine annual maintenance $1,000 for Ranger; roadside breakdown, no charge; etc. We discussed possible events between those two extremes and I came away convinced that I would be treated well and any charges would be appropriate and fair, if not delightful. The bottom line is they know that charging an arm and a leg for servicing a broken car is not in their best interests and, as mentioned above, I can likely sell the car with ease if the system is unworkable in practice.�
Dec 12, 2015
Config I'm happy to read you were able to work it out with Tesla.�
Jan 20, 2016
neroden I would not hold my breath. We've been waiting for the upstate NY service center (ideally in Syracuse for the most centrally accessible location, though Rochester would be OK) for three years now with no hint of even a start. And there are a lot of Teslas up here now. We damn well need a service center, as much as Houston needs one. And there are no legal problems with opening a service center, even though there might be with a store.
At least Tesla is slowly, slowly, slowly getting around to putting a service center in Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh! 23rd largest MSA in the country! (Detroit, 14th largest MSA in the country, is also missing but I understand there are legal problems with the state of Michigan.)
Bozeman? I wouldn't expect a service center EVER at this rate.
This is Tesla's single weakest point. They DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH US geographical coverage with their service centers. Not anywhere *near* enough. If they don't fix this problem, it'll severely damage model 3 sales.
Actually, if I run through the MSAs from highest population to lowest, and skip the ones where Tesla actually has a service center or a "coming soon" marker, I can find the top most underserved priorities. I skip those within a plausible driving distance of other planned service centers including practically everything in California:
#1 Virginia Beach-Norfolk-Newport News
#2 Richmond, VA
#3 Birmingham, AL
#4 Buffalo, NY
#5 Albany, NY
#6 Rochester, NY
#7 Grand Rapids, MI
#8 Tulsa, OK
#9 El Paso, TX
#10 McAllen, TX
#11 Charleston SC
#12 Boise, ID
#13 Syracuse, NY
#14 Wichita, KS
#15 Spokane, WA
#16 Fayetteville, AR
#17 Pensacola, FL
#18 Springfield, MO
#19 Corpus Christi, TX
#20 Shreveport, LA
...and I'll just cut the list off there.
If I were trying to cover the country's metro areas as efficiently as possible, I would promptly open a service center in Syracuse, NY (within reasonable driving distance of Buffalo, Rochester, Albany, and the rest of upstate NY), and one in Richmond, VA (within reasonable driving distance of most of Virginia including Norfolk), and one in Charleston SC. (Southern Texas is probably not a great market at the moment, but I'd look into that too.)
I can't imagine why these aren't on the priority list. Tesla is instead building redundant centers in the metropolises, which is mostly not a productive use of time -- they should find one really big lot and build a megaservice center instead. (Though I understand building one on each side of NYC since nobody likes to drive through NYC.)
Who do we have to lobby to get service centers built in Syracuse (and for that matter Richmond and Charleston)? The importance of these locations ought to be obvious to Tesla management, but apparently it isn't.�
Jan 21, 2016
Andyw2100 As much as I would --LOVE-- a service center in Syracuse, or even Rochester, and as much as I agree 100% that we desperately need one, I'm not sure why you believe that there are no legal problems with opening a service center. The following posts would appear to disagree:
Believe me, neroden, I hope that you are correct, and that there really are no legal hurdles that need to be jumped, and that this is just an issue of getting Tesla to do it. But I fear that isn't the case.�
Jan 21, 2016
LetsGoFast I had previously mentioned that I could no longer advise those who asked me in Richmond or Virginia Beach to buy a Tesla due to the $300 or $600 charge per service under this new policy. Last weekend I was informed that Tesla has hired a full-time ranger who will spend two days per week in both Richmond and Tidewater who will provide service at no charge. This is obviously a big step in the right direction and I'm pleased that someone seems to be thinking rationally about the situation in Virginia. I was also informed that Tesla's policy was not to charge the fee to people who had purchased the extended plan, although I was in fact charged for my annual service despite having purchased the plan. It seems equally possible than the service guy who told me the rule is misinformed or that whoever handled my annual service was. One never knows.�
Jan 27, 2016
neroden I read the legislation. There are no legal problems with opening a service center. The legislation ONLY talks about selling and marketing cars (dealership license), not servicing them (car repair shop license).
I am correct. You can read the law for yourself. So could anyone at Tesla Motors. Their legal department seems to have cheese for brains, however.�
Jan 28, 2016
Quibbs Others have posted similar thoughts and experiences with the Tesla ranger change. I want to share my experience from today.
First a little background. We own a 2013 P85, which we purchased new. The closest service center to us is 257 miles away. When we bought our car, one of the deciding factors was the ranger service. It was $100 a trip then. Being that Tesla was a small new player in the auto industry, the ranger service (100$ trip) was a major contributor to our decision to buy.
Tesla called and asked if a service tech could come over tomorrow to do the fix for the seatbelt recall.
I asked if they could also do some service work (rattle in the A pillar, very noisy, and loud noise when doing sharp turns). I was informed they couldn't do that on this trip. The stated reason was this appointment is a courtesy to repair a recall item. I then asked what the price would be to have a ranger come to the house and fix our issues (due to poor build quality).
The service rep informed me it would be $3 a mile to our house and $3 a mile back. At that rate a service call would end up costing $1500, just to have Tesla fix build quality issues that have been in my car since almost the beginning of our ownership.
I consider myself a reasonable person. I understand the cost for the ranger service was unsustainable at $100 a trip. However I feel that Tesla needs to go retro on their pricing for ranger service (to original owners, for build quality issues) as this was a big selling point to me as an early adopter, who did not live close to a service center. They offered the ranger fee as an incentive for people like myself who were not going to be close to a service facility. This was done obviously to address anxiety about the lack of service centers.
Love my car, love the positives owning it brings, but this situation is not going to make me a repeat Tesla owner. The people that want to see my car and go for a ride (I park it at my store and give customers rides in it) always ask the one question.."what happens if you need service".
The answer I have to give now is not a selling point anymore.�
Jan 28, 2016
Footbag I would double check if they actually would charge you on the return leg. While I could have missed other such reports, my experience, and what I recall reading elsewhere is that the $3/mile is a one way charge. Ask to speak to the service manager if you need to. Hopefully, its a tinge of good news (though even $750 is high obviously... I'm in a very similar situation to that price wise).�
Jan 29, 2016
Quibbs I checked back, it's $3 a mile, round trip.
I'm considering selling the car before it needs a fix for something that is just big enough to be a nuisance, but minor enough not to stop the vehicle from being driven.
As crazy as that sounds, consider the clunking noise coming from the front end. A couple of years ago (?) TM tried fixing our P85 and used a temp fix (per the ranger). Ranger also noted at that time they still did not have a permanent fix for the problem. Fast forward to a few weeks ago. I was driving like I was weaving through traffic cones (quite country road, low speed) and felt/heard a hard clunk from the front end. I think whatever spacers, or other fix the ranger did is now loose.
This could end up being a safety issue. However I won't know because I am not going to pay TM $1500 to come look at my car for possible manufacturing issue. I'd rather just take the damn thing to carmax and sell it.
One of my favorite cars, with what I believe to be the only viable alternative fuel source (EVs). It's easy on the eyes, very fast, handles well. Everything I want, with the exception of service.
I will try calling them next week and ask to speak with a service manager.�
Jan 29, 2016
Krugerrand You could discuss and demonstrate this (the front end clunking issue) when the Ranger shows up for the seatbelt. Remember the person on the phone and the person showing up are two different people. The one showing up may have some 'pull', they may be more sympathetic and go out of their way on your behalf, they may be concerned it is a safety issue and work for you on your behalf, etc., etc., etc... It's also a lot easier for people to say no on the phone, then to your face particularly if it's obvious in the moment you've got a very real problem. Give it a shot, you never know.
Another option would be to have a mini-vaca/visit family/friends/something of that sort in the general vicinity of the SC, drop off the car, get a loaner, do your thing for a few days, get your car back.�
Jan 29, 2016
Footbag Ouch. I can understand your consideration for selling the car. Good luck making the best decision that you can (when it looks like no decision is a clear winner).�
Jan 29, 2016
InternetDude I have been told my ranger fee is $1,500. I have thought about selling my car but not yet. I'd pay the fee once I'd say, after a second time I think I'd list my car. My new slogan is "Love the car but not the company ".�
Jan 31, 2016
dhrivnak This change in policy just bit me hard. I purchased my Roadster 6 years ago on the assurance we will be serviced at a reasonable fee. We paid an extra $100 above parts and labor and Tesla often combined trips, servicing 2-5 cars in a trip. This worked well for over 4 years and then my car died due to to a high voltage controller failure. I found out the transport fee would be $1000 a ten fold increase. So the total repair bill was about double what it would of been 6 months ago. I just do not see this working with the Model 3 launch. While EVs should require less maintenance this is not the current situation, likely due to so much new technology. This is where companies like Chevy and Nissan have a decided advantage. While I have 4 Chevy dealers within 25 miles the nearest Tesla service center is 200 miles away.�
Jan 31, 2016
Krugerrand While $1000 seems excessive to me, the $100 you paid for 4 years of service was excessive the other way. Tesla can't afford to do that forever. They couldn't really afford to do that in the first place, but they did it to get people into an EV. It wouldn't have been a surprise to me to have the company change that policy at some point, would just be prudent from a business standpoint.
I've heard a number of people mention how this won't work for Model 3, etc., etc., all of them failing to realize that this isn't some stagnant point. Many things will change between now and seeing Model 3's on the road, just as many things changed when the first gas powered cars hit the road and gas and service stations were few and far between. Tesla isn't trying to sell to every person on the planet, so if a Model 3 won't work for someone because they are an excessive distance from SC, then those people can buy a Chevy Bolt or whatever other EV becomes available from some other company that does have closer access to a SC. Not the end of the world.�
Jan 31, 2016
bonnie Stores and service centers keep opening. When I bought my Roadster in 2011, the closest service center was in Menlo Park, about 145 miles away. Imagine my delight when Tesla opened the Rocklin SC (about 5 miles from my house) a few years back.
Hopefully you'll have closer options soon. More SCs are opened every week, fingers crossed that one will be in your neighborhood.�
Jan 31, 2016
Andyw2100 But it was Tesla's decision to offer this price, and entice customers with the promise of this price. No one forced Tesla to do this. As you said, they did it to get people into an EV. Tesla has an obligation--moral, if not legal--to leave that policy in place for the people whom the enticed that way for as long as those people own their cars.
That's fine. I have no issue with that argument. But for people who live an excessive distance from an SC, for whom the promise of $100 ranger service was a determining factor in their purchase decision, Tesla has an obligation to continue to fulfill that promise.
We all hope we'll have SCs open closer to us soon. But until they do, Tesla should honor the commitments they made to those of us who live great distances from service centers.
When this has come up before people have tried to argue that Tesla is under no legal obligation to continue offering the $100 ranger service, and that if having that as a permanent option was important to us as customers, we should have gotten the promise of it in writing. My answer to that is that as customers that trusted Tesla, we had no reason to expect them to pull the rug out from under us. Elon Musk had written: "Valet Service
Your time is valuable and should not be spent driving to or waiting at our service centers. Tesla is putting in place a valet service, so that your car is seamlessly picked up and replaced with a loaner and then returned as soon as we are done. There is no additional charge for this."
Tesla Motors | Premium Electric Vehicles
That blog post still appears on the Tesla site.
Taking it a step further, for those of you that do live close to service centers, did you get anything in writing stating that Tesla would keep that service center, or any set number of service centers open? Legally I don't think there is anything stopping Tesla from closing every service center except one in Fremont, and telling every customer that to obtain service they must bring the car to Fremont, at their own expense.
Yes, this is a ridiculously exaggerated example, but this is essentially what Tesla has done, on a smaller scale, to those of us who live a great distance from a service center who purchased based on the $100 ranger service and / or free valet service. It simply is not right.
�
Feb 4, 2016
neroden Bonnie, unlike the rest of us, you seem to actually be able to get the ear of people inside Tesla Motors occasionally.
Can you tell someone in power that the *retroactive* removal of reasonably priced Ranger service is probably the single worst thing Tesla has ever done from a marketing point of view?
-- It caused a lot of us who live hundreds of miles from the nearest SC, and who used to routinely evangelize for Tesla and tell people to buy Teslas... to say "Don't buy it, you can't get it serviced".
-- It created a very strong perception of shady dealer behavior and bait-and-switch (because it was a bait-and-switch, and on something very important, namely ability to get service). Numerous Tesla salespeople sold cars by telling people about the $100/trip Ranger fee, it was heavily advertised, and then it was removed silently. The new picture emerging of Tesla is "get it in writing or it's a lie", which was *not* the view of Tesla beforehand.
At least those of us who bought the "unlimited ranger service" plan are getting what we paid for (so far) but we *did* get it in writing.
This is serious reputational damage. To restore the reputation,
(1) People who bought the cars while the $100/trip Ranger fee was advertised should to have it honored.
(2) Tesla should have an actual press release -- apologetic -- about the new pricing so that future buyers know what they're getting into (and those who live hundreds of miles away from the SC will not buy the cars)
(3) Tesla should publish a much more comprehensive plan for service center expansion (more like the Supercharger plan) so that people who can't buy the car now have something to look forward to and can still be boosters/cheerleaders.
That's what's needed from a marketing point of view. Not really that complicated.
[PS The service centers simply are not opening fast enough. When I bought my car three years ago, the nearest service center was 212 miles away. Now, the nearest service center is.... 211 miles away. I don't see much progress. Tesla is opening extra service centers in the same cities which already have them (5 around NYC, 2 around Boston, 3 near DC/Baltimore, 7 around LA, 6 around SF, 3 around Miami, 3 around Chicago, 3 around Toronto, 2 around Seattle, 2 around Houston), but they're taking their sweet time getting geographic coverage. I see only 8 on the coming soon list which qualify as increasing geographic coverage, and one of them is not going to happen any time soon (Detroit). I don't see how they can sell Model 3 nationwide with this situation. I've just been hoping they actually have a plan to fix it. Otherwise they should start saying "available only in select markets".]�
Feb 4, 2016
Andyw2100 I don't think it is fair to ask Bonnie to use her relationships and at the same time attempt to put words in her mouth. She may not in any way believe that "the removal of reasonably priced ranger service is probably the single worst thing Tesla has ever done from a marketing point of view."
I think the most any of us should ask of Bonnie is that she attempt to let those in power know how a lot of people feel about this. Obviously if she shares our feelings, she'll express them at the same time.
(I'm not even sure it is appropriate to ask this of Bonnie, but putting words in her mouth is, in my opinion, certainly going too far.)�
Feb 4, 2016
Krugerrand Stop it Andy. You know very well it works both ways. It was also Tesla's decision to revoke the price. Pricing and policy changes ALL THE TIME in business. Like every second of every day. If it's not going to work any longer for a company they wisely make a change. dhrivank has the same opportunity to make changes in his life. If the car no longer works for him because of the burden he now bears, then he'll sell the car. And perhaps in the future if Tesla opens a SC closer to his location, he'll be able to own another one. Or he'll choose not to. It sucks, but it is what it is. Let's move on.
I can speak from experience having chosen to live away from many amenities. You make choices to have what's important to you, and circumstances change and then you make new choices to have what's important to you.
Not to the detriment of the business. No, not even a little bit. Being out of business is by far the greater negative for Tesla (and us) and you know it. While it sucks bananas, sometimes promises need to be broken.�
Feb 4, 2016
lance p Not sure I agree with your line of reasoning. Seems to me there are 3 issues here: legal, ethical/moral, and business.
Does Tesla have a legal right to do what they've done? Time will tell, after they get sued for breach of implied contract or some such. Legal theories in equity may lead Tesla to have the $100 ranger price enforced for existing customers who relied on the company's representations. Tesla may be estopped from claiming a contractual right to change the terms (note I say may, not will).
In terms of ethically/morally, I feel Tesla has an obligation to continue the $100 ranger service to customers who bought before the change in policy. Customers relied on the company's representations regarding both the program and the Tesla's commitment to fair treatment when they chose to purchase. Referring to specific contract terms or other legal excuses doesn't change the facts. Of course, ethics are subjective, others will have a different point of view as to what Tesla should do in terms of what is ethical.
In terms of business, presumably Tesla have run the numbers. However, the big unknown (since any financial analysis must include assumptions about future consumer behavior) is how will current and potential future customers react to this new policy, and at what cost? I have been considering a Tesla, but this change in policy is one of several factors that is giving me real pause. It just is starting to feel like Tesla have a disregard for their customers that I find troubling, and I am starting not to trust the company. Any car I buy I plan to keep for many years (current Jag is 9 years old). Feeling like Tesla is not trustworthy, will not keep its implied promises to its customers, and is willing to stick its customers with costs the company should (IMO) bear all argue against getting a Tesla.
I truly hope the company succeeds, but if they don't change their behavior then my feelings will change even in that regard. Thankfully, it looks like EV technology will happen with or without Tesla, so their survival seems less important than it might have a few years ago.�
Feb 4, 2016
neroden FWIW prior to purchase I spent a while discussing things with people who knew something about cars and about electrical engineering, and the consensus was that *eventually* there would be readily available aftermarket repairs. The technology is fundamentally straightforward. The only question is when.
- - - Updated - - -
Sure, absolutely, point taken. I would honestly hope that she herself realizes how bad this is, though. If a lot of people feel this way (which is certainly true), it's *by definition* a huge marketing problem.
I wouldn't ask her to use her contacts except that the company execs are obviously not listening to ordinary owners in this matter, which exacerbates the marketing problem.�
Feb 4, 2016
Andyw2100 Excellent first post! Welcome to TMC!�
Feb 4, 2016
dhrivnak As a data point a friend who I have given many rides in my Tesla has been lusting and actively planning for a model 3. But with the $1000 transport fee he just told me is is planning on a Bolt. I have three speaking engagements lined up about electric vehicles and while in the past I actively promoted Tesla now I will only mention them as one of the plug in options. And unless I hear of a service center opening soon or a release of service manuals so we have other repair options, my Roadster will soon be for sale. It has been a very fun car but it is no longer a practical option for me. And I am moving onto a stage in my life where practicality is more important than fun. I do not plan to knock Tesla but cannot see myself at car shows promoting them.
It was fun while it lasted.�
Feb 4, 2016
qwk I don't think that Tesla is interested in owners that live far away from their Service Centers anymore. This would't be a problem, except when they were desperate for sales, they happened to sell a bunch to folks that do live far away, sometimes very far away.�
Feb 5, 2016
crmatson As a potential customer who lives hundreds of miles from the closest service center, this issue has certainly influenced my decision to not purchase a Tesla sooner.
I don't see how Tesla can expect to increase production from ~50k/year in 2015 to ~500k/year in 2020 without a much more rapid expansion of service centers and superchargers.
I remain hopeful, but concerned.�
Feb 7, 2016
Spyder14 Sorry if this has been mentioned earlier but along with changing the Ranger Service costs after people have ordered & taken delivery (which has effected me greatly due to my location), I guess the next move is to start charging for Super Charger visits. We already "pay" for SpC ability in the cost of the car as a line item/option, but in order to get more SpC's built in the right spots, maybe using them will no longer be "free forever". I hope I am way wrong!�
Feb 7, 2016
dmckinstry On the other hand. Those of us in the Spokane area had our nearest service center in Bellevue (270 miles away). Almost two years ago they stationed a service tech in Spokane. He has been doing annual service, and whatever else the rangers did in the Spokane area by coming to our homes.�
Feb 7, 2016
bonnie I frequently express my views to people within the company. But as everyone here is very well aware, they clearly are aware of forum sentiment. How many reports are there of people posting and being contacted shortly after by the appropriate person or department within Tesla? People don't need me to pass on sentiments.The forum is serving that purpose, both positive and negative.
�
Feb 7, 2016
qwk Yes, Hector is great, but ranger service is only good for minor repairs.�
Feb 7, 2016
rxlawdude Hi Bonnie, I know what you said is true for the forums hosted by Tesla. I'm not convinced that posts at TMC are as diligently followed, however.�
Feb 7, 2016
Andyw2100 There has been an abundance of evidence that at least to some extent some Tesla employees do read posts on TMC. I have not experienced this myself, but many posters have written something service related and then received a follow-up call from their service center. Some even wondered how the service center identified them, before others pointed out that they had included their VIN in their sig, or some other obvious means by which the service center could ID them.
I don't believe I've read too many, if any, posts about people being contacted about policy concerns, or general customer service issues, but with respect to maintenance and repair issues there are literally dozens if not hundreds of such reports.�
Feb 10, 2016
crmatson Q4 Shareholder Letter indicates addition of 80 service centers this year.
How many in US?�
Feb 10, 2016
Zaxxon No, it says 80 retail locations and service centers. That could be any mix. I hope it's weighted to the service side. Time (or the conf call) will tell.�
Feb 10, 2016
green1 I find it highly unlikely that they prioritized service over sales on this one.�
Feb 10, 2016
Zaxxon Me, too. They certainly have to prioritize service before Model 3 hits in any significant volume, though, so it's either 2016 or 2017 or bust.�
Feb 10, 2016
crmatson Hope service ramps more than sales.�
Feb 12, 2016
djplong I wonder if a sales location that also has service would count as one or two against that number. (Would love to see them open something here in New Hampshire but, since I live on the MA state line, Natick is good enough for buying - someplace closer for service would be desirable but there's time for that to happen)�
Jun 22, 2016
lightfoot3b After reading through this I'm a bit confused. I purchased my P85 in May 2014. I have had two annual service visits that have posed problems. The one last fall was taken care of by the MN service center (I'm 540 miles away) for $100 as agreed when I bought the car (it said that). Now it's 1000$ for my annual visit that I pre-paid for (8 years (or 100k miles) of scheduled checkups) and my last visit after waiting months I agreed to $500 and the MN SC contributing $500. I'm very unhappy as I made a big deal of the fact that I would have a loaner car and service every 12.5k miles without a large extra charge. Now my next service is only about 2k miles away and I'm worried I'm about to be begging for a deal again instead of receiving the services I paid for at the price I signed for.
Suggestions? What have others done? I did the pre-paid plan and am still being told it costs another $1000. The real kicker? I can't even get it there via superchargers without going nearly 300 miles out of the way and going slow as it is 230miles to the nearest supercharger in Rapid City SD. We have zero superchargers in ND and when I bought it in May '14 I was told they were going go have sueprchargers up in '15. It's 1/2 way through '16 and still no superchargers... so I can't even drive it to a SC to have the work done.�
Jun 22, 2016
Az_Rael Did you buy the pre-paid plan with the unlimited ranger service (back when that was an option)? I think only those folks are getting to stick with the old ranger service terms since it was written into the contract.
If you have ranger service in writing in your contract, then they have to honor it. If you don't, well, you may be in for a fight.�
Jun 22, 2016
neroden If you bought the unlimited ranger service plan, force them to honor it.
If you didn't.... well, perhaps call Tesla HQ and start demanding a refund on the service plan because you are unable to use it due to Tesla's failure to provide service centers or rangers in your area.�
Jun 23, 2016
lightfoot3b I bought in May of 2014 and believe I had unlimited visits as they came out multiple times and never charged me right away (first off delivery issues) and they did the car trade and everything the first 3 times without a hitch. I know when I purchased I asked about any limits and she told me no, as in $100 each time no matter what it was for (large or small issues). How do I know what I ordered (I feel so dumb asking this as a computer tech I'm all about detail and knowing what I have, and then on the biggest purchase of my life I can't answer a simple question about my service plan outright).�
Jun 23, 2016
Az_Rael I would hope there is a copy of the plan agreement in your My Tesla account. You would have had to pay extra for the unlimited ranger service, I believe it was ~$600 more than the regular 4+4 service plans.
Maybe someone who has the unlimited ranger plan can chime in with what their agreement looks like with regards to ranger service.
Edit: it looks like as of May 2014, the ranger service was no longer available for purchase with the service agreements.
Ranger service plan no longer available for purchase | Tesla Motors�
Jun 23, 2016
Andyw2100 Everyone should know that the agreements in their "MyTesla" accounts are not necessarily the agreements that they signed, but rather, at least in my case, they are the most recently updated agreements.
The language changed between the annual service agreement I signed, and the current ones. The older agreements, for example, include wheel alignments, and the newer ones only include wheel alignment checks. The agreement in MyTesla account includes the new language. If I want to see the old language, I have to find the .PDF file that was sent to me at the time I purchased the agreement.
I don't know if this is simply some sort of computer glitch on Tesla's part or not, but it is certainly awfully convenient for them. I went looking for the agreement after I was told by service personnel that my service contract did not include wheel alignments and free tire rotation, when I knew with 100% certainty that it did. Had I not been as certain as I was, I may have found the language in the document in MyTesla account, and just assumed that if this document was in my account, it must be the document I entered into. How many people might be doing just that?�
Jun 24, 2016
lightfoot3b I found my agreement. Nothing about extra costs ever. Also stats a loaner will be given if the repairs take over 4 hours (since their drive one way takes nearly 8 hours I'd say that qualifies since they never build a service center any closer.
Here is the top part of it:
SERVICE PLAN:
Plan Agreement Period
4-Year Plan 4 years or 50,000 miles
(whichever occurs first)
Additional 4-Year Service Plan
Additional 4 years or 50,000 miles (whichever occurs first)
4 regularly scheduled maintenance
inspections at the following
intervals: 12,500 miles or 1 year
25,000 miles or 2 years
37,500 miles or 3 years
50,000 miles or 4 years
4 regularly scheduled maintenance
inspections at the following
intervals: 62,500 miles or 5 years
75,000 miles or 6 years
87,500 miles or 7 years
100,000 miles or 8 years
Purchase
Price
$1,900.00
$100 per Ranger Service
Vehicle per visit
$1,900.00
$100 per
Vehicle per visit�
Jun 24, 2016
Az_Rael Since you have it in writing that ranger service is $100 per visit, I would hold them to that. You might have to take it up the chain at your nearest SC, but make them honor the agreement.�
Jun 27, 2016
lightfoot3b Thanks. I'll send it with my next request for annual (or in my case 12.5k miles) service visit since there are still no SCs in ND to allow me to take it to Minneapolis.�
Jul 10, 2016
Gravelpeople Lightfoot3b,
I had the unfortunate experience to get a flat last week but it turned out to be a blessing. the mechanic pointed out that the alignment was way out and that I risked a blowout if I kept driving.
Is the Minneapolis SC the only place to get an alignment for us in the heart of the continent?
Lester in Winnipeg�
Jul 14, 2016
InternetDude I thought any alignment shop can do an alignment on the Model S...?�
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