Jun 1, 2016
182RG Several recent threads on service and repairs continue to trouble me.
Specifically, when does Tesla get called out for this:
Mini Settles with FTC Over Magnuson-Moss Warranty Law Violation
Starting in 2012, there were several threads on here regarding the Model S, and the requirement to take your car "to Tesla" for paid service as a provision to keep your warranty intact.
It doesn't appear that anything has transpired in almost 4 years. If you read page 108 of the current Model S owners manual, there is still wording like:
"and take Model S to Tesla at the regularly scheduled maintenance intervals of every 12 months, or every 12,500 miles (20,000 km), whichever comes first."
"Model S must be serviced by Tesla-certified technicians"
"Do not change or top up Battery coolant and brake fluid yourself. Tesla service technicians replace fluids at the regularly scheduled service intervals:
� Brake fluid. Every 2 years or 25,000 miles (40,000 km), whichever comes first.
� Battery coolant. Every 5 years or 62,500 miles (100,000 km), whichever comes first."
https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/Model-S-Owners-Manual.pdf
This needs to be resolved, as it appears to violate MM. If they require you to use dealer service to keep your car in warranty, it has to be provided free. And when do service manuals get released beyond Massachusetts?
I plan on DIY'ing routine maintenance items as I have on every other car I've owned, without fear of voiding the warranty. Audi, VW, Toyota, Infiniti, Ford, and the list goes on.
Perhaps it's time for the FTC to take a closer look. I'm surprised no one has pushed this issue further, unless I'm missing something? I doubt they requested and were granted a waiver.
Model 3 buyers are going to feel very differently than $100K buyers.
Discuss.�
Jun 1, 2016
CarlitoDoc Mmm, ok. So you want to "work" on a new EV that no-one outside Tesla has ever worked on?I'm just saying!
�
Jun 1, 2016
182RG Brake fluid flush, coolant change, brake pads, rotors? Umm, not rocket science.
Release the service manuals and change the wording the way Mini was forced to. People can decide for themselves. MM was enacted to protect consumers from behavior like this.�
Jun 1, 2016
JeffK Relevant section from https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/Model_S_New_Vehicle_Limited_Warranty_201602_en_NA.pdf
I believe Tesla complies with the law, nothing to see here.�
Jun 1, 2016
trils0n As far as I know those 2012 posts are no longer correct. Annual service is no longer a requirement to keep the warranty.�
Jun 1, 2016
182RG The owners manual is still very much in conflict with the statements I cited in the OP. Perhaps they'll get the M3 wording correct?�
Jun 1, 2016
182RG I respectfully disagree. If they were sincere about sentence #1, procedures for DIY would be available.�
Jun 1, 2016
182RG Pg 123
"Topping Up the Brake Fluid
Do not top up your brake fluid. Tesla service does this when you bring Model S in for regular servicing. The following instructions are provided for information purposes and future reference only: "
Say Wut?�
Jun 1, 2016
JeffK I'm not seeing where it says that it will void your warranty...
They are simply saying you don't really have to worry about it because Tesla will do it for you.�
Jun 1, 2016
182RG Sure, on your dime. I'm guessing you paid for the prepaid maint and/or ESA? I don't plan on purchasing any plans.�
Jun 1, 2016
stopcrazypp The manual is not your warranty.
All Tesla has to ensure is that nowhere in the warranty does it say you have to use Tesla service or parts in order to keep your warranty. The way their latest warranty is worded (notably they removed wording that said "lack of" maintenance would void your warranty), you do not have to do ANY maintenance to keep your warranty. Thus they don't violate any warranty law.�
Jun 1, 2016
TSLAholic Personally, I have very little trust in anyone working on any of my cars. Having my dashcam running during services such as wheel alignment and state inspection only proved my theory to be true. The minute your car leaves your sight, the once friendly service manager/tech/specialist turns into a totally different animal. It isn't always easy to hear yourself being referred to in the third face when those working on your baby don't realize you are right there with them...a fly on the windshield, just in front of the rearview mirror. Suddenly, you find out just exactly how little they think of you, personally. That aside, your prized possession is nothing more than a chunk of metal they get to thrash around before moving on to the next one.
I'm not saying I wouldn't trust Tesla service techs to do a proper job, it's just that some of us would like to continue to take care of our own cars instead of driving 75 miles to the nearest service center for anything other than the necessary inspection. Owners should feel free to rotate tires, replace brake pads and rotors (like they would ever wear out anyway), top off the windshield washer reservoir, replace the windshield wiper blades etc. without any fear of voiding their warranty.�
Jun 1, 2016
newtman Service manuals have been available for over a year:
Welcome | Tesla Service�
Jun 1, 2016
182RG Only if you live in Massachusetts. Try to purchase a subscription. It's only available in that state.�
Jun 1, 2016
stopcrazypp Only available however to Massachusetts residents, if it is for personal use.�
Jun 1, 2016
Big Dog Quite the contrary. You are reading something that is not there. The Tesla manual says "damages or failures" created by non-Tesla techs are not covered by the warranty. In other words, you break nick a break line while you are flushing the brakes, they won't fix it for free.�
Jun 1, 2016
newtman Depending on how they determine state, you could:
A) lie and put MA as your state
b) use a web proxy ala onion/tor located in MA
C) move to MA ;-)�
Jun 1, 2016
182RG The crux of it is either their documentation is worded very poorly, or very cleverly. I'm not really sure which it is at this point.
Sorry guys, I'm not convinced. It's really, REALLY obvious that Tesla is trying to tell you in a thinly masked way that they would prefer you not work on your own car. I find this to be incredibly poor customer service, and frankly insulting.�
Jun 1, 2016
Krugerrand Yes, you are sure. You just said: Sorry guys, I'm not convinced. It's really, REALLY obvious that Tesla is trying to tell you in a thinly masked way that they would prefer you not work on your own car. I find this to be I credibly poor customer service, and frankly insulting.
Anyway, you should probably sue them.�
Jun 1, 2016
stopcrazypp It is not a thinly masked way, it is very obvious they would prefer you not work on your own car. I think you will find this is true with most manufacturers today: there is no longer a focus on serviceability and a lot of repairs require using a computer system that is not generally available to the public or third party shop, which is why "right to repair" laws are being introduced.
However, saying they prefer you not work on your own car is not illegal.�
Jun 1, 2016
182RG It's there. Read the language I illustrated in the OP from the manual and the conflicting statements. Its either terrible technical writing or cleverly abstruse.�
Jun 1, 2016
182RG Nope. That's why the FTC exists.�
Jun 1, 2016
alseTrick I honestly don't see the problem with the bolded portion.
If you were contractually prohibited from doing it, that would be a different story, and one that you initially brought up. But others are saying that is no longer the case. So therefore, if you're allowed to work on your own vehicle then who cares if Tesla prefers you don't?�
Jun 1, 2016
Krugerrand Then what's the problem? Go talk to the FTC then and encourage them to get on it.�
Jun 1, 2016
Big Dog I did. And what you posted does NOT say, "Do not change your own oil because if you do, it will void your warranty." (That would be a violation of the FTC.)
It just says, don't change your oil yourself. (We'll do it for you if you pay us.)
And it also says, any damage caused by a non-approved Tech will not be covered by warranty.
Yes, it is typical legal writing.�
Jun 1, 2016
182RG Unfortunately, it's not very clearly written. Have you ever seen a warranty statement written this strongly? I haven't from any other manufacturer.
"Tesla strongly recommends that you have all maintenance, service and repairs done at a Tesla Service Center or Tesla authorized repair facility in order to avoid voiding, or having coverage excluded under, this New Vehicle Limited Warranty"
Could the fact that you don't have the service manual for the proper procedure be reason to void your warranty?
How about limited fluid specs? No torque values? There are far more ways they can void your warranty, than you have ways to defend.
I don't quite get the level of blind trust when it comes to Tesla?�
Jun 1, 2016
182RG Sure. And it's also a really sketchy way to treat customers. Show me the same language used by another manufacturer in the same context.�
Jun 1, 2016
ohmman I don't think this is blind trust. It'd be easy to accuse you of unreasonable skepticism, using that same scale.
My guess is it's in between. Tesla hasn't reached the point where people want to work on their own cars that much. They've been selling high price point premium vehicles, and they offer free, and excellent, service for 4 years. All of this is covered up to today. Once that changes, I think things will start to open up. I'd suggest watching the environment for the next two years (until you get your first Tesla) and see how it progresses.
Or, as @Krugerrand suggests, get with the FTC. Though I think that's a waste of my tax dollars at this stage, so I don't really support it.�
Jun 1, 2016
SageBrush As someone who shares OP's desire to perform the simple maintenance myself, I'll add one oar in defense of Tesla: between the car changes and the OTA updates, yesterday's manuals may already be out of date.�
Jun 1, 2016
JeffK You know the procedure for checking the battery coolant is in the owner's manual itself right? (pg 123 of the pdf) There's no need for a service manual.�
Jun 1, 2016
182RG Thx @ohmman for the good feedback. However, unless I'm confused, the service isn't free. You have to prepay for it?
Service plans�
Jun 1, 2016
182RG What about changing it at year 4 / 50,000 mi? What's the procedure?�
Jun 1, 2016
ohmman Things may change, but I never paid for service (prepay or otherwise). I take my car in for any warranty work, voluntary recalls, etc., and they check the entire vehicle over. If I have any issues at all, I just bring it back in and it's serviced. At the four year mark, that'll change, because I'll be out of warranty. But my plan is to trade my S in for a 3.. so we'll see about that.�
Jun 1, 2016
Chargedmr2 Bases on my interpretation, I see NO problem at all. I see nothing that indicates working on your own car will void your warranty. The only way you might void your warranty in this regard, is if you conduct your own service AND screw it up (causing damage/need for repair). Take your car to Tesla for service and you don't have to worry. If they screw up the service, it's on THEM, not you. This is normal.
I do agree that service manuals should be more easily available, but I can understand why they are not. While Tesla has many familiar serviceable components, they also have much new and unfamiliar technology. They want to maintain control over service, likely for this reason. One day when EVs are truly mainstream (and thus familiar to the masses), this issue will go away.�
Jun 1, 2016
SageBrush The registration form requires a photo of the driver license.�
Jun 1, 2016
stopcrazypp You haven't read enough warranties then, since I couldn't find the warranty for the Mini, I instead found it for the i3:
"BMW recommends that you have maintenance and repair work performed by your authorized BMW center."
"It is strongly recommended that any replacement parts used for maintenance, repair or replacement of emission control systems be certified BMW Service Parts or BMW Authorized Remanufactured Parts."
BMW Ultimate Service� - Service & Warranty Books - BMW North America
There's a boatload of other similar legalese, but it's par for the course.�
Jun 1, 2016
omarsultan While I don't share any of the OP's concerns, if memory serves me correctly, the very first Model Ses should start timing out of their warranty this July or so. At that point, it would seem Tesla is going to feel more pressure to open up the service manuals though an outfit like AllData or the like. In the scheme of things, certifying/approving more places to get service might be a good strategy to help them scale. to meet the needs of the growing fleet.�
Jun 2, 2016
Takumi If you have to top up your brake fluid, it means you have a problem. Either you have a leak or you pads need to be changed. The only time you should need to top up the brake fluid is after servicing the brake lines or flushing.�
Jun 2, 2016
deonb I don't think "I wanna buy a Tesla one day" gives one sufficient standing to sue...�
Jun 2, 2016
182RG You'll get sued by Tesla for doing it, and talking about it.
Service Manual Subscriptions�
Jun 2, 2016
Garlan Garner I don't plan on servicing my M3, however I'm certainly going to augment it with 3rd party upgrades.�
Jun 2, 2016
SageBrush That fellow told people to cheat via the rather large stage of youTube. I'll give good odds that the threat to sue was so that the video was removed, nothing more.
Can you really not see the difference between him and a person who acquires the manual against terms but limits himself to personal use ? You accuse Tesla of being waaay clever or deceiving. I think it is YOU with the issues. Normal people will quietly acquire the manual by a roundabout or slightly illicit means and NO ONE will care, including Tesla. If you continue to make a nuisance and spectacle of yourself, do not be surprised when unwanted attention comes your way.�
Jun 2, 2016
182RG Umm, I'm not defending the guy. What he did was wrong. I was simply responding to the post where someone else suggested that you lie to Tesla. I am in complete disagreement with that, as you appear to be as well. So, you can stop preaching to me.
My issue is with the fact that it's not available broadly to consumers. It's not even available to current owners outside of MA.�
Jun 2, 2016
Krugerrand Certainly not in your or my reality.�
Jun 2, 2016
ModelNforNerd
I live in Massachusetts.
This is all moot to me, as we were given the voice to vote, and passed, a "Right to Repair" law a few years ago.
I can bring my Model 3 to Sullivan Tire, or anywhere else I want, for the "common" stuff. Brakes, tires, etc....
But I'm not bringing it anywhere except Tesla for anything EV or Tesla-specific. (battery, drivetrain, etc)�
Jun 2, 2016
SageBrush In your shoes I would include brake flushes, and maybe pads, in that list. Or at a minimum read the relevant portion of the manual to convince yourself that a regular garage can handle the work and bring the pages with you to the service.�
Jun 2, 2016
ModelNforNerd
I may even shy away from having a non-Tesla place touch my brakes...especially if they'd be in a position to mess up anything to do with regen.�
Jun 2, 2016
trils0n Regen happens in the motor(s). Not sure how brake maintainence could mess up regen.�
Jun 2, 2016
ModelNforNerd
Ah, then I'm all set.
I suppose once the Model 3 manuals are available, I'll have to DL one and acquaint myself.......�
Jun 2, 2016
182RG The current brake system is off-the-shelf Brembo. Parts and documentation availability should be good already.�
Jun 2, 2016
Sparky Slightly off-topic but I wonder what happens when Magnuson-Moss crosses paths with FCVs. My neighbor George is a great mechanic and repairs all his own trucks and off-road critters. But a 10,000 PSI H2 tank and all the fittings sitting 30 ft from my house after George has "serviced" it does give me more than a twinge of concern.�
Jun 2, 2016
newtman Lolz�
Jun 2, 2016
SageBrush There have been multiple reports of people bricking their Prius from routine brake work. I cannot remember details but I think the problems occurred from computer initiated pump activations while lines were disconnected or at low resistance states, leading to emergency fault codes being set.
In effect, the car computer was saying "the brake is not operating in spec. Initiate shut-down."�
Jun 2, 2016
stopcrazypp The Prius has blended brakes, so regen is tied to the brakes (at least electronically). Tesla so far only has regen on the accelerator (and likely will keep things that way) so hopefully that means chances of the same is a lot lower (or non-existent).�
Jun 2, 2016
jaguar36 Well you can't download them, you can only buy a subscription for a limited time. You can print out pages, but they have gone to some decent lengths to make sure you can't just grab the whole thing. In addition you (or a indy shop) will still have a hard time doing alot of the work (such as doing the coolant flush) as it frequently requires using the Tesla Toolbox diagnostic software. They haven't released that software (although I think it would be a requirement of the right to repair law).�
Jun 2, 2016
jaguar36 The service is not free far from it. Its $500-$600 a year on average depending on if you pre-pay or not. Coming from BMW where service is free for the first 50k miles, that's quite expensive.�
Jun 2, 2016
SageBrush I'm under the impression that the core issue is the car checking the brake status while maintenance is being done and setting a fault code when the brake is found to not be in spec. That does not sound Prius specific to me.
IIRC the problems were (mostly? all ?) solved by preventing the car from querying or activating any part of the brake system when the car was 'off' by disconnecting the 12v battery. Bottom line: the service manual has to be referenced before brake work is undertaken.�
Jun 2, 2016
stopcrazypp The post you responded to was talking about regen, so I presumed the errors you mentioned was related to regen. If it is a general issue that can happen to any car that does not have regen braking, then that is kind of a different subject.�
Jun 2, 2016
SageBrush I think it is more a case of *EVs having multiple inter-related brake systems that are monitored and periodically tweaked by the car computer. Regen falls under that umbrella.
I apologize for not being more specific although I think my warning to read the service manual before brake work is advice worth heeding.�
Jun 2, 2016
eloder I'd love to take care of my Tesla maintenance personally, but unfortunately I--along with most of the general public--isn't professionally trained in handling potentially lethal high voltage systems.�
Jun 2, 2016
SageBrush That is why I want access to the service manuals: then I know what I can do safely.
E.g., if the manual says : go get your high voltage gloves I'll think twice before getting involved.
But if the manual says "disconnect this 12v line first," -- well that I can do.�
Jun 2, 2016
ElectroFroggy I'm sure the M3 complete service manual will be available via your favorite Torrent late next year or early 2018. Not too many X & S owners are interested in working on their own cars. M3 owners however are going to be a much different demographic group with no doubt a lot more DIY'ers. There will also be a lot more after market mods available then X or S.�
Jun 2, 2016
SageBrush And hopefully, a used part market and with market success, a generic parts market.
All the accouterments of a mainstream car.�
Jun 2, 2016
TSLAholic We're talking about servicing basic mechanical parts of the car. No parts of the systems in question could possibly be affected by an OTA. Besides, someone who does their own maintenance is typically up to date on what's going on with the car, and the updates it has gone through since the last time they were under it. I have heard of a manufacturer updating hardware torque specs before, but like I said, it isn't something that would go unannounced. "Dear Mr. Johnson, with this OTA software release, we have tightened your lug nuts to 100 ft/lbs. while you slept"
I think we're only discussing the basic mechanical maintenance here. i.e. tire rotations, pad/rotor replacement, wiper blades, windshield washer refill etc.�
Jun 2, 2016
SageBrush Your case.
Tesla does not have the luxury of presuming the same for everybody.
Unless of course you would be happy to sign an agreement to limit yourself to windshield wiper replacement, in which case I think Tesla will be happy to provide you with only that part of the service manual if you really need it. ;-)�
Jun 2, 2016
WileyTheMan From my perspective, this is a trend the auto industry in general has been marching towards for a long time. Remember how simple and easy cars from the 60s and 70s were to work on? As many people here, I've owned cars in various eras and they have been increasingly more and more complex and the manufacturers have make it increasingly more and more difficult for the non-mechanic owner to service the car. Specialized tools to get and bolts in small spaces, plastic fasteners that you have to pretty much break to remove a plastic cowling, and even encasing the entire freaking engine in a uniplastic enclosure with only a few access points for oil and dip sticks.
So I'm not surprised that Tesla is handling maintenance in this way. That said, once their cars become more mainstream, the tools and skills will become more available because there will be money to be made in the self-maintenance market. Will it happen with the Gen1 Model 3? I doubt it. Gen2/3/4? I would say yes.�
Jun 2, 2016
ohmman I agree. In the early 90's I rebuilt the suspension, motor, and some of the interior in a '68 Mustang. A close friend did the same but also put in new quarter panels, floorboards, etc. Part of that was that the secondary market was alive by then. And part was that those cars were much simpler.
At the risk of being called out again for using analogies (looking at you, @callmesam), I have found the same trend in computing devices. When I had some of my first IBM clones, I swapped everything out. As we went to laptops, that became more difficult. Apple has made things much more difficult in some models, where you just buy what you need and don't even think about self-service. And most smartphones will provide you some limited capability to increase memory, but servicing them yourself is just about out of the question.�
Jun 2, 2016
Krugerrand That's the truth!�
Jun 2, 2016
SageBrush Repairing stuff has become the terrain of hackers, but replacing components is becoming a DIY commodity.
And in something of an irony, as devices become more complex, they also get better at self-diagnostics.�
Jun 2, 2016
callmesam Take it up with @elonmusk�
Jun 2, 2016
omgwtfbyobbq The changes to their warranty allow them to comply with the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. With that said, no aftermarket part availability, no service manual access for individuals, (mostly) no access to their diagnostic protocols, very limited vendor support (Only for bodywork as far as I know), and virtually no variation in service cost may lead to a lawsuit for violating antitrust laws.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastman_Kodak_Co._v._Image_Technical_Services,_Inc.
At the moment, it's likely not a significant risk because most of the owners who have standing won't sue because everything's either covered under warranty or not too expensive compared to the savings in operating costs if they are out of warranty, and owners of luxury cars aren't hugely into DIY. The 3 will change that, and I imagine Tesla will need to provide service manual access, diagnostic information, and allow aftermarket part production.�
Jun 2, 2016
stopcrazypp Your link is broken, this is the one:
Eastman Kodak Co. v. Image Technical Services, Inc. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
However, that lawsuit doesn't seem to apply, since Tesla does sell parts to and allow independent shops (unlike Kodak which didn't).
States with "right to repair" laws can require Tesla provide access to service manuals and necessary repair equipment, but other than those laws, there is nothing that makes Tesla "need" to provide such access.
As for aftermarket part production, there is no law requiring any manufacturer to support aftermarket part production. If the car gets popular enough, such parts will be made, but there is no law that forces the manufacturer to support their production.�
Jun 2, 2016
182RG My guess is they'll only do it while kicking and screaming and under legal threat. Currently, they are doing as little as possible. M3 owners will be different. You are correct. More DIY, budget conscious, and hopefully far fewer blind apologists who defend their stance. I thought the population on the Cirrus Aircraft Owners Forum had the lock on sheer number of fanboys. I was wrong.
DMV is holding another hearing in Virginia on allowing Tesla to open a store in Richmond. Perhaps they need some public testimony on the anti-consumer attitude to balance the message? Might be worth the trip.�
Jun 2, 2016
omgwtfbyobbq Kodak allowed sales to independent entities (both individuals and businesses as far as I can tell), they just required that those entities only purchase equipment from them.
They also sold directly to owners.
And interestingly enough, refused to provide service contracts on used equipment unless it was inspected, and if applicable, fixed, by Kodak.
This sounds similar to what Tesla is doing. It's not identical, but it doesn't have to be to violate section 2 of the Sherman Act.
Sherman Antitrust Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Specifically...
If Tesla's actions, as a whole, make it impossible for other persons to engage in fair competition in terms of service and parts sales, then they're probably violating the Sherman Act.�
Jun 2, 2016
bonnie I never understand why, when someone can make the same point without insulting other forum members, they still feel the need to do so.
You're welcome to join the crew already fighting this.
Virginia Hearing, 4/25 -- Represent!�
Jun 2, 2016
ohmman I think @182RG wants to join the opposing team, Bonnie.�
Jun 2, 2016
bonnie Hahah. Oh oops. You're absolutely right.
@182RG, you might want to read some of the local dealership Yelp reviews, before you decide Tesla is anti-consumer.�
Jun 2, 2016
SageBrush Or at least use the threat to get what he wants.
I think he deserves a Chevy Bolt�
Jun 2, 2016
omgwtfbyobbq They may be straddling the line. On one hand, I don't see anything wrong with Tesla opening a shop in Richmond, and at the same time I don't see anything wrong with local government leaning on Tesla to provides the tools and parts, or allow others to provide the tools and parts, to repair Tesla's cars at reasonable cost.�
Jun 2, 2016
qwk There are mom and pop dealerships that blow Tesla Service out of the water. Only fools use Yelp....
I will agree that the Tesla Service Centers are nice and have decent customer service, but their work is very shoddy at best. At this point, I would rather go to a place that kicked me in the nuts as long as the car got fixed properly. Nice doesn't fix problems....�
Jun 2, 2016
bonnie Sure there are some great mom and pop dealerships somewhere. I was specifically talking about the reviews for the ones who have testified in Virginia.
Do you have a better place to look up consumer feedback for those dealerships? That would be great if you did.�
Jun 2, 2016
qwk Yep, it's time to let the public know of Tesla's dark side. Rushing cars out in order to meet quarterly numbers, and expecting the Service Centers to fix stuff they have no clue about isn't working too great.
�
Jun 2, 2016
qwk It's called word of mouth(something Tesla used to have). Right now, with Tesla, one has no choice. It's either incompetence, or incompetence, and they won't sell a lot of parts. That doesn't exactly scream consumer friendliness.�
Jun 2, 2016
stopcrazypp Not according to the article you linked. Kodak would only sell parts to the owners of the equipment, not to the independent repair shops. Tesla sells equipment to both owners and independent repair shops. There are some "restricted" parts that are only sold to certified independent shops (not available to owners), but there is no general ban on parts for independent shops.
"Since 1975 Kodak has followed a policy of selling patented and unpatented repair parts only to direct purchasers of its equipment. The 18 plaintiff in this case are independent service organizations ("ISOs") engaged in repairing and servicing Kodak's copiers and other equipment, and in buying, reconditioning and selling used Kodak copiers and equipment. The effect of these practices is to bar sales of parts required to repair and maintain Kodak copiers and imaging equipment to the ISOs."
I'm not lawyer and I presume you are not. Given the major differences that I pointed out above, I would presume that your example does not apply. Tesla doesn't make it impossible to engage in fair competition, it is just that it is a new/niche manufacturer today, so there will be less options available and no desire by the market to make third party parts (nor is there a large supply of refurbished parts). Anti-trust law does not mean the manufacturer has to handhold potential competitors in coming up with parts.�
Jun 2, 2016
stopcrazypp So you now resort to name calling after you fail to present a valid argument? I get you want Tesla to release their service manuals in your state, but the fact of the matter is nothing they are doing right now is illegal, despite your insinuation otherwise.
That sounds a lot like "cutting off the nose to spite the face." Helping the dealers block Tesla from opening stores and forcing Tesla into a franchise model does nothing to push forward the "right to repair". The whole point of "right to repair" is that dealerships got access to service equipment that independent shops did not. Rather what you are ensuring is that you have one less option for servicing your vehicle in your state.
Rather, if you feel "right to repair" is a big issue, you should push your legislator to pass such a law in your state.�
Jun 3, 2016
182RG I agree with you on this. There is actually a Federal bill introduced a few years back that was co-sponsored by a NOVA Congressman. (ironically, Don Beyer of Beyer Automotive now holds this seat).
H.R.1449 - 112th Congress (2011-2012): Motor Vehicle Owners Right to Repair Act of 2011�
Jun 3, 2016
182RG Yuck!�
Jun 3, 2016
diamond.g Lol, but you can get parts for it!�
Jun 3, 2016
182RG Perhaps Watto will setup a Tesla parts distributorship on Earth.
�
Jun 3, 2016
omgwtfbyobbq According to the link, they sold parts and provided support to other organizations that just repaired Kodak products. They key point is that the other organizations had to refuse to work with any ISO. I believe that ISO in the context of this case just means any independent company who didn't have some kind of service contract/agreement with Kodak. Another business that had a contract with Kodak was probably considered separate, but not independent because of the contract/s they signed with Kodak.
I think the differences you've pointed out are out of context given the article in it's entirety, but I can see reasonable individuals disagreeing about these sorts of things. As laypersons, we're probably both missing interesting pieces of information.
If Tesla is willing to sell their diagnostic equipment and technical information to third parts who can then create lower cost generic versions, allow other organizations to sell their products and repair their cars without contracts limiting the sales of parts and/or cars by those organizations, sell parts to owners without requiring those owners have service done through Tesla or it's authorized repair facilities, and allow aftermarket manufacturers to build and refurbish the parts in Tesla vehicles, like any other major auto manufacturer, then they wouldn't be violating the Sherman act.
With that said, they haven't allowed any of that. They don't have to developer and provide inexpensive parts, documentation, diagnostic equipment, and so on themselves, but they also cannot implement policies that make it difficult or impossible for others to develop and provide those services and parts, and it looks like that's what they've done. It hasn't been an issue because of their position in the market and customer base, but it might be going forward, and for that reason I expect they will slowly but surely provide the same options to independent entities other large manufacturers provide.
P.S. FWIW, I'm not a lawyer. At the same time, the industry I work in does have a lot of exposure to the law, my wife is an ABD in Criminology who taught Law and Society (undergrad) at UCI, and I've been able to successfully pursue remedies problems I've experienced that were unlawful (Lemon Law, ADA, and UCC stuff) or just contractually invalid (Mostly annoying cancellation fees and warranty coverage).�
Jun 3, 2016
omarsultan Generalize much?�
Jun 3, 2016
stopcrazypp I would highlight the part "allegedly" and the fact that the article makes no reference to where they got that statement (while others have citations, for example the paragraph before).
I looked through the source and it makes no reference to a third type of contracted repair organization. Only Kodak's own and the ISO.
IMAGE TECHNICAL SERVICE, INC. v. EASTMAN KODAK CO. | Leagle.com.
Here's the extent to which Kodak did to prevent independent shops from competing with their service organization, none of which apply to Tesla. There is no evidence Tesla bans their parts suppliers from selling parts to others, from owners selling parts to repair shops, or from repair shops gaining access to used parts/cars. The reason why Kodak lost the suit is because they had a concerted effort to prevent independent shops from repairing their equipment at all levels.
"The Supreme Court affirmed the Ninth Circuit's denial of Kodak's summary judgment motion reversing the district court. Justice Blackmun began by emphasizing some additional facts from the record that neither court below had relied on. Kodak did not make all of the parts that went into its equipment. It purchased parts from parts manufacturers. As part of Kodak's policy to a policy to limit sales of replacement parts for micrographic and copying machines only to buyers of Kodak equipment who use Kodak service or repair their own machines, Kodak sought to limit ISOs' access to other sources of Kodak parts besides Kodak itself, Kodak got manufacturers of its parts to agree with it that they would not sell parts that fit Kodak equipment to anyone other than Kodak. Kodak also pressured Kodak equipment owners and independent parts distributors not to sell Kodak parts to ISOs. In addition, Kodak took steps to restrict the availability to ISOs of used machines."
You keep saying they are violating the Sherman act, yet you don't provide evidence how doing those things you listed are a requirement of the Sherman act.
There is no general requirement in the Sherman act that requires you to make life easier for competitors by releasing all technical information about your parts such that third parties can make them. Try requesting that from Apple for example and you will be laughed off the face of the earth. Rather, if there is a sufficient market for such parts, third parties will reverse engineer and make their clones of such parts (provided they don't violate patents). Or if they are generic in the first place (as are many car parts), they will just substitute a similar alternative after figuring out what works.
This is not a general requirement of the Sherman Act, otherwise dealerships and franchise agreements will fail to exist. The whole ideal behind franchise agreements is that it allows manufacturers to control the sales of products/parts. For example, Manufacturers typically impose bans on known exporters of grey market vehicles via terms in their dealership agreement. To use the Apple analogy, Apple also restricts sales of certain parts only to certified technicians. None of this is a violation of the Sherman Act.
Where's the evidence Tesla doesn't do this (not that it is a requirement of the Sherman Act)? Unlike Kodak, they don't require you to sign any contract to buy a part from Tesla.
Where's the evidence that aftermarket manufacturers are banned by Tesla from building and refurbishing parts in Tesla vehicles? I know at least a few hobbyists (for example wk057, Jack Richards of EVTV) are already doing so. There are also some that are making a commercial business out of it (Ingineer for salvage vehicles, Tony Williams of Quick Charge Power for charging equipment, HCSharp for adapters, EVAnnex, TSportline, for accessories). Some are even stepping on patent issues (the adapters for example uses Tesla's patents for their socket design) but Tesla have not issued any C&Ds about it (the only one they did was for Jack Richards telling people to pretend to be in Massachusetts in order to access the service manuals).
The lack of third parties interested in aftermarket parts is simply because it is a niche/new manufacturer. This will naturally change when Tesla gets more popular.�
Jun 3, 2016
ProphetM Given the average consumer, they're right to prefer that you not work on your own car. You and I may be smart, but they didn't write the manual just for you and I. They wrote it for lots of people, and lots of people are idiots. An electric car is not the same as an ICE car and I can't blame them for trying to protect themselves from people who assume that it is and then do something stupid.
I do whatever regular maintenance that I can on my cars, and I'm very much looking forward to not having as much to do. There's no oil to change, or fuel filter, or spark plugs, fuel injectors, etc. Brakes are about the only somewhat-involved thing that I would expect to possibly do on a Model 3, and as I understand it Tesla brakes are extremely long-lived due to the regen system.
Plus, the lack of dealership sales model means that Tesla stores are not designed to extract their profits through service. That goes an immense distance towards alleviating my fears about taking the car in to be serviced.�
Jun 3, 2016
TSLAholic Ha! The only thing I'm willing to sign is for them to drive the car for me (while I remain on standby ready to take over if necessary, of course!). I'll take care of the maintenance though.
Funny thing, I remembered this thread on my way home from work this afternoon when the "low washer" notice came up! No joke! Uh oh, I better call a professional and schedule a refill, I thought.�
Jun 3, 2016
TSLAholic Ding ding ding! We have a winner! +1 here. Not to mention the 1.5 hour drive for some of us.�
Jun 3, 2016
JeffK I wonder where the washer fluid cap will be in the model 3.... Hope it's easy to get to like the model X.�
Jun 3, 2016
CoastalCruiser Good points being made. Love the dashcam comment. Really gotta get one of those. I think the strategy would be to record it live on your portable device while sitting in the waiting room. Then if you have enough bullets from the recording show it to the manager when it's time to pay the bill (how much is that charge going to be today (to avoid a viral youtube experience?). Ha ha ha.
For myself -and I wouldn't try to convince anyone else of this- I am going to give Tesla a lot of leeway the first few years of M3 production. When I first heard how much was being charged for annual service I freaked. I do most all car maint. myself.
But this is not business as usual. This is David taking on Goliath, and I'm on David's side (as we all are). For the time being I'm going to go with the inherent integrity I pick up in Elon. From statements he's made the intention is to not have service be a 'profit center'. For now, I'm giving Tesla Motors the benefit of that doubt until they get up to critical mass. I have reversed my earlier decision and plan on brining my M3 in for its first annual service.
Which after 28 cars in this lifetime will be a literal first.�
Jun 3, 2016
dhanson865 That's assuming there wasn't an error in manufacturing or service that left the brake fluid low to begin with. Some owners like to check ALL fluids before driving a car aggressively and trusting it won't fail to perform as designed.�
Jun 4, 2016
flyinghook The model 3, lacking a lot of the servicable parts, and including out of warranty repairs of around $700, all synthetic oil changes, and all services up to 100K on my saturn, the model 3 would exceed the 10 year/100K mile cost of ownership of my ICE car in 2 years of "annual service", not including the 2 year brake fluid change and alignments on the tesla. if they aren't "extracting profits" at that cost of ownership level, I would like to know what the hell they are doing to these cars that costs so damn much. if this isn't profit, then they maybe need GM to engineer the car to need less frequent servicing. I live 5 hours from a tesla service center, and based on elon's info, don't expect one to pop up much closer, ever. I don't want to have to drive 5 hours to pay an insane amount of money to get my brakes flushed, or alignment. I should be able to have a local shop perform the alignment, and do the brake fluid and coolant myself, at least. I can even possibly stomach paying for the differential fluid change, but I should have the option to perform this myself, too. these are all BASIC services DIYers have been performing on their cars since there have been cars.
btw, I have a 2007 that's as easy to work on as a 1975, if not easier, because there's no tuneup, no vacuum besides the brake booster, no EGR, no SAI, no plug wires, and loads of room around everything.�
Jun 4, 2016
CoastalCruiser With apologies to the OP for straying so off topic... I'd like to amend my earlier post about never having had one of my 28 cars serviced at the dealer. There was one time. and one time ONLY. 1991 Honda Accord. True story... here's what happened:
1) Car is nearly new. Some idiot with no insurance lays a fender bender on me. I take the car to the dealer for repairs in their body shop. I always carry an uninsured motorist rider on my policy, so I'm feeling quite smug, as there will be no deductible. Just minus the car a few days. When time to pick up car I hop in and notice that someone has spilled an entire cup of coffee in the front seat... and it went everywhere. The dash, the passenger seat, and right door panel are covered with dried coffee. AND THEY DIDN'T CLEAN IT UP. So it's brown stains on a tan fabric interior. They literally were going to return the car in this condition.
2) I get the service manager and show him the car. I'm a little PO'd. He shows great concern as to what had happened. NOT. I leave the car, and a couple of days later they have me come in to pick it up. The stain is kind of gone, but in it's place are brush and wear marks where someone had scrubbed the sh** out of the upholstery. Stands out like a sore thumb. The car is weeks old and the interior now looks years old. What happened? Believe it or not the dealer invoked the upholstery warranty and had some cleaning guys who drive around in those vans come over to remove the stain. This is MY warranty that the pretty girl in the back office made me buy when I purchased the car (I couldn't resist her).
3) So I get the service manager. Again. I knew he was around because earlier I had seen him tripping over his johnson offering to help some Marin county hottie housewife get her car serviced (she was simply waiting for her car and brushed him off). So I tell him that the cleaning job is unacceptable and that the dealer had better replace the fabrics that did not clean up. Again, it's a NEW car. The owner happens by and joins the conversation. They agree to my demands. The owner looks at me and says "Mr. Coastal-Cruiser, is there anything else we can do for you while we have your car?" I say "The car is great, but one thing. When idling if I roll down the window or turn on the fan, the engine RPMs drop, and the motor flutters like it's about to die. Then it recovers." The service manager fields the question and --in front of the owner of the dealership-- basically says the Accords are trouble free and that they've had no problems with them in that regard. ...................... That was it. No offer to even look at the issue. Translation: you are imaging the problem and we're not even going to offer to check for such a symptom while the vehicle is here.
That is one reason I've never since taken my car to the dealer for maint/repairs. Plus I'm a cheapo. Thanx for listening. I guess I vented that since I'm among car people here. Gee, I even feel better. :>�
Jun 4, 2016
deonb You know the Model 3 doesn't come with a Red Handle, right?
How are you ever going to park the thing?�
Jun 5, 2016
omgwtfbyobbq As far as I can tell, they allegedly had deals with manufacturers to not sell to anyone else. The agreements with customers (both individuals and businesses) to not sell to anyone else were I believe something Kodak admitted to during the trial.
FWIW, I did not say that Tesla had violated the Sherman act, just that in my opinion they likely have given the similarities between their behavior and that of Kodak. If Tesla continued their practices and someone with standing filed suit, that determination would be up to a judge or few. Given that they've already changed their warranty policy, probably to comply with the Magnuson-Moss Warranty act, if need be I imagine they would change how they provide service and parts to comply with the Sherman Act if they weren't in compliance and the need arose.
If they offered to the public what other auto manufacturers offer in terms of diagnostic tools/FSMs, parts, and so on... they would fine. There's no question about that. What they offer at the moment is far from that, which is why I'm skeptical that they'll continue to structure service/parts availability in the same way, but who knows. I'm also a little busy today, but I'll try to allocate some time to reply to your other points later.�
Jun 5, 2016
diamond.g Does anyone know how much of the Spark EV user serviceable?�
Jun 5, 2016
McRat AFAIK, all of it. You can purchase all the OEM diagnostic tools and parts, OEM service information, and you can get aftermarket parts and diagnostic tools. It's true for pretty much all cars and I think all GM's.
You should buy the MDI and sign up for AC Delco Techconnect to do it right and safely.
$55 for 2 days IIRC or you can buy annual subscriptions.�
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