Aug 8, 2012
dflye The $3,750 "Tech Package" includes a bunch of features that aren't really "tech" so much as just random options Tesla apparently wanted to bundle with desirable features.
Features that are either non-tech or should be included with any Model S:Features that are reasonable a-la-carte for a few hundred each:
- Convenience lighting (vs inconvenience lighting as the standard?)
- Automatic keyless entry
- Homelink
- High definition back-up camera (camera upgrade cost should be minimal)
Features that are utter BS:
- Xenon headlamps (ow, my eyes!)
- Electrochromatic side mirrors (to defend against those xenon bulbs!)
- Power rear liftgate
The only remaining feature left that seems both "tech" and worthy of a line-item choice by itself:
- LED foglights (How often do you drive around with the foglights on? Does LED vs Xenon vs anything else really make a huge difference? If so, make the best one the standard purely for safety purposes!)
And unfortunately here is where I have serious issues. Up to this point, all of the tech package features are either fluff, should be included with all Model S vehicles, or are options I'd pay for a-la-carte (which is where your fluff may be my a-la-carte or vice-versa)
Turn-by-turn navigation with seven years of free map updates
However, once we get to the "turn-by-turn navigation" I'm starting to have serious reservations about the value and quality Tesla is delivering.
From a long email exchange with Tesla, it appears that a POI (Points of interest) database is not actually part of the "seven years of free map updates"; the only way to get to POI data is through google. So better hope you are in cell range when you are out in BFE trying to find the next facility of any type.
If it wasn't for the fact that the tech package is included in a Signature Model S, I'd likely pass, as it sounds like a lot of overpriced fluff with only a few bones to fill out the frame and make it seem legit.
The email back and forth with Tesla made it apparent that the navigation system is visual fluff that works in the city, but don't count on much when you are out in BFE, which is when you really want your navigation system to shine!�
Aug 8, 2012
brianman Is Tech Package worth getting?�
Aug 8, 2012
dflye Thanks for the link to a thread that a relatively newbie such as myself may have not yet perused.
However, that thread does not seem to address my concern that the navigation system is entirely dependent upon google for POI data.
From my conversation with Tesla, you will absolutely, positively have zero percent chance of locating the nearest POI of ANY kind if you cannot connect to google, whether you have the tech package or not.
The Tesla rep stated in no uncertain terms that there were no POI stored in the navigation system, it is entirely dependent upon google.
For those staying in the city, not an issue.
For someone like me who likes to visit those places far outside any city and would like to be able to find the nearest restaurant when out in BFE... apparently the Model S will NOT deliver. :cursing:�
Aug 8, 2012
MikeK I generally get better cell coverage in BFE than I get in the San Francisco Bay Area. It is a bit puzzling that the database doesn't have POI info in it. I can understand why they're probably thinking that Google is the way to go, but you have a point about needing data coverage.
As far as I'm concerned, the rest of what you call "fluff" does qualify as "tech". I would never, ever own a car again that didn't have hands-free unlock, entry and start. That by itself is worth the price of admission, and there's not another feature on the list that I would drop, with the possible exception of the power lift gate.�
Aug 8, 2012
dflye Exactly, that is why I put the ones you explicitly enumerated in the first list of "non-tech or should be included with any Model S"!
Who wants a car like the Model S without those features? Hertz Rent-A-Dent?
The point I was attempting to make, for the features that are so basic or commonly requested that the majority of purchasers must have those features, including them in a package that has a bunch of overpriced and/or unwanted features is just going right back to the traditional dealer franchise model of only having vehicles on the lot that just happen to always have that package. Which makes it less of an option, and more of extortion.�
Aug 9, 2012
ManuVince
If Navigon is one of the top satnav maker, and has the reputation of being as good as TomTom. I can't believe there is no POI in its database. Nowadays, ALL turn by turn satnav I have seen have POI.
Check Navigon website you ill see even the most basic of their devices do have POI.
Tesla rep some times get stuff wrong, so be careful on drawing conclusions.�
Aug 9, 2012
brianman We've had this discussion before, but I don't have the thread handy. I'll try to summarize.
You're making a leap here. Tesla is betting that there are customers that will find a base Tesla compelling at the price point (especially after the $7,500 rebate). Anything you add to that base model raises the price of that model and, correspondingly, makes it less compelling. It's simply a numbers game.�
Aug 9, 2012
dflye I find it hard to believe myself, as Navigon has Garmin backing them (and I've had excellent interactions with Garmin in the past) and as you state, the POI database is usually a freebie along for the ride with the turn-by-turn data. Usually the only time the POI database is reduced is due to storage or bandwidth issues on the host device.
Which does put the onus back on Tesla, and unfortunately I went multiple rounds with a rep (with several requests to just pass the question on to the engineer(s) working on navigation integration), so I have to go with the belief that a POI database is just not going to be loaded in my Model S on delivery.
�
Aug 9, 2012
dflye Well, I guess I may be in the minority in that I plan to drive my Model S places where cell service varies between spotty and nonexistent, and still expect that my navigation system can actually navigation to find nearby POI.
If it can't, sure, I've got a TomTom that can, but I would be extremely disappointed if the $3,750 tech package can't include the functionality of a $100 GPSr!�
Aug 9, 2012
AustinPowers Are you serious or joking? Isn't that total and utter fluff?
I approach my car, press the button on the key, it unlocks, I get in, stick the key in its place and turn it to ignite the ICE. All in all the process takes less than ten seconds and no hard labor whatsoever.
How is not having to press one button and turning a key alone worth thousands of dollars
Now if the doors would swing open by themselves, little elves would come, lift me up, place me on the seat and put on my safety belt - THAT would be worth some cash :tongue:�
Aug 9, 2012
ChrisgG Nope it isn't, I bought my prius 7 years ago with a full package. navigation system, bluetooth phone, voice control of many things in the car and keyless driving.
From all those the keyless driving is the thing I'd miss most. I realised it as my key ran out of battery and I finally had to put it in the 'keyhole' again.. is it worth 3k ? probably not if you think rationally.. but then no car is worth 100k then..
Also that the navigationsystem is dependant on the internet is really really bad. It sure is ok for people in the US, where their country is huge and therefore their mobile plan will work everywhere. But here in europe? If I drive for 30 minutes I can be throu 4 different countries. If I use my Data on my mobile phone in an other country 1 MB cost me 6 Sfr. So I can't be 'on line' all the time.�
Aug 9, 2012
jerry33 It's pretty obvious you've never had a car with a system like that. I thought it was fluff until I had a car with it. Now it's something that I would never do without. There are two situations that it handles better than anything else:
1. It's pouring rain and you have a couple of bags of groceries. No fishing in your pocket for keys while you get drenched. Just open the door and go.
2. You've put something in the rear and laid your keys on the rear mat. You then close the hatch/trunk and oops. Because the fob never leaves your pocket (or purse) this situation never arises.
I don't say that it's worth thousands, but it's sure worthwhile getting. For me this is a must-have.�
Aug 9, 2012
jerry33 I'm old enough to remember when people said the exact same thing about halogen lights. Properly adjusted HID lights don't glare. I would rather have LED lights though.
Nonsense. Mostly to defend against SUVs where the lights are mounted high and usually misaligned as well.
LEDs last longer and use less electricity than other lights so both range and maintenance costs are affected. I'd prefer the LEDs to be headlights because the laws in most North American jurisdictions require the main lights to be on when the fog light are on which destroys the value of fog lights. In the VW TDI that, thankfully, I no longer have the fog lights were useful because the main lights were always burning out (at least one bulb per month).
Aug 9, 2012
ChrisgG I agree, keyless driving doesn't sound like much. But from all the 'new' stuff my prius had 7 years ago, the keyless driving and the navigation system are the only things I'd miss. the not searching for the key, the not having to have 2 key-rings so they don't make too much noise when driving.... it all sounds like nothing.. and then it feels so right.
That the Navigation system uses the Internet is a very bad Idea for many people in europe. I can drive through 4 different countries within 30 minutes from where I live. 2 of them will have roaming costs wich makes 1MB cost like 6-7$. All the online and cloud stuff might work if you live in a big country wich you never leave by car. But here it sucks. Especialy as the phone companies are not able to have an acceptable plan outside your country.�
Aug 9, 2012
Zythryn I actually agree, after having a smart key system, I would never go back
I also thought it was a cute toy until we got a car with it.
My wife loves it as she puts the car fob in her purse and never needs to dig it out. When carrying items it makes it makes it much more convenient.
I have talked with people who feel much more secure with the system in place.
However, if you get right down to it, remotes of any variety are fluff. Why not just have a key. It isn't that big of a deal is it?
The level of convenience is just head and shoulders above the alternative.�
Aug 9, 2012
AustinPowers Indeed I never had a car with that feature, and if I have to pay extra just for that feature then I will never have a car with it.
re 1. ) It's pretty obvious you don't go to a supermarket with parking garage. No problem with pouring rain.
re 2. ) I've made it a habit to never ever do that. And as I press the button on the key only after I have closed all doors / hatches I can't have left the key in the locked car. So far in my 18 years of driving I didn't have a problem.
I agree it might seem comfortable, but I am much more concerned about the safety issues (see the other thread about keyless thefts) that come with a keyless entry and start feature.�
Aug 9, 2012
Adm I just checked for the Netherlands and I can get 8GgB/month for �30,=/month (36 months), 21.6 mBit/s down and 5.8 mBit/s up. Every MB over the limit costs �0.08. Every MB outside the Netherlands in the EU/EER costs �2.00 per MB or for an extra �5.00 per month you pay �1.00 per MB. Still a rip off in my book.
However, for �10,= per month extra you can get 100MB for use outside the Netherlands (in EU/EER) (�0.10/MB). When you have used up this 100MB you get a text message to warn you, but also the option to buy an extra 100MB at �10,=.
No clue how much the navigation uses, but it's a much lower price than you mentioned.�
Aug 9, 2012
jerry33 Supermarkets in Texas don't have parking garages, they have parking lots. And when it rains, it's often gallons per second per m[SUP]3.[/SUP]
In 40 years of driving it hasn't happened that often, but it's not zero either.
That appears to be limited to Mercedes--and perhaps just one professional theft ring, so it's only a concern if Tesla is using a Mercedes security ECU (which they might be). You can say the same thing about garage door remotes but the local police department tells me (during one of their community programs) they have never had an instance of it (and I live in the ninth largest city in the U.S. so it's not like I'm in some low crime area). I don't put this high on my list of worries.�
Aug 9, 2012
William13 I would say the tech package is total fluff. I want everything in it, but it is fluff. I will enjoy each feature but had none until my 2004 Prius. Yes I am willing to pay for leaving my key in my pocket!!!! I miss that on the 2010 Malibu I bought as a placeholder for the Tesla nearly three years ago.
One can drive successful without all those gizmos. A map and serendipity will lead you to POIs that are not yet in Google, especially if you are in an area without cell coverage.
I expect that Tesla will work to find a solution for Europe that is not too expensive. It may help to have this issue brought up with George who is in Europe right now. It helps to be ahead of the curve so that Tesla can find solutions.�
Aug 9, 2012
goyogi A simple software update would fix the POI issue. I'm sure GeorgeB is reading and will have this put on the engineers list. Also remember there is an 'app' section where an app can be written to make the S even more useful. It'll be exciting to see what people develop for it.�
Aug 9, 2012
contaygious I would Definitly call these tech and convinience features worth getting and very well priced. BMW or Porsche would easily charge 5k for them.
Also, I've had keyless entry and in my infiniti key fob since 2003. I thought all S has this, but automatic just means the door handles pop open as you walk up and the car locks itself as you walk away. This seems to be more advanced than the standard press the handle to open I have now. I don't think any s requires you to stick a key in.�
Aug 9, 2012
jhs_7645 Perhaps there is a misunderstanding here. If the Tesla rep stated that the poi database is loaded over wireless might that simply imply that it loads all POIs when it can, and keeps them up to date when needed? You seem to be assuming that they flush the database so that POIs are not available when you are off-line.�
Aug 9, 2012
raptorweb My thought on the nav is this. If I am out in BFE where there is no cell coverage and I have the tech package I will have the local copy of the maps. With this copy I will be able to look at the map for a close town or city and set the navigation to this location take my turn by turn to a point where I have cell coverage. If then I choose I can search for POI otherwise I can look around as I am driving. This may not be the case for everyone but I generally have some direction I am looking to go even if I do not have a destination in mind.
On the keyless entry I believe contaygious is correct without the tech package you will have to push a button on the fob to unlock the doors but there still will be no key to start the car. With the tech package the car will unlock when you get close and present the handles, when the software is complete, after this point I believe there is no difference in the function between the two.�
Aug 9, 2012
efusco Ok, I won't argue that it's fluff--depending upon how you define it. But so what? The Performance version is fluff too, so is the leather and the 17" touch screen and almost everything else besides the basic drive train and chassis.
But, as opposed to the performance feature, it is fluff that makes a comfort and convenience difference every single time you ride in the car. As pointed out above, with perhaps a bit of hyperbole, the smart key system like on the prius is an every day convenience that is difficult to appreciate until you've gotten used to it. No digging in purses or pockets in the dark trying to find the right button, you just walk up and get in. That sort of convenience carries a high value to me, higher than a faster 0-60 time that is likely to result in either more tickets or more accidents for me!!�
Aug 9, 2012
jerry33 +1 Agree 100%�
Aug 9, 2012
Kipernicus I don't think they've even built a car without the tech package, and I'm surprised we don't see something like air suspension: "All cars built in 2012 must have the tech package". The car was designed with all that stuff in mind, and it may take time to deactivate/remove it.
Has anyone configured a car without the tech package yet?�
Aug 9, 2012
brianman Having a stereo is fluff too. It's not required to drive. For that matter, having air conditioning in many climates is fluff. So let's just remove all that...
Or let's get real about what optional packages means, and that Tech usually means "something relatively new/interesting considered 'fluff' by people that don't want it".�
Aug 9, 2012
AnOutsider Sanity.�
Aug 9, 2012
Francis Lau I think the most important question is how many jars of Fluff we can buy with $3,750 :biggrin:
�
Aug 9, 2012
jkirkebo I consider most of it "fluff" too, but no the xenon headlights. Being able to see as well as possible in low light surroundings are a basic safety feature in my book.
In Europe more or less all "premium" cars come with xenons as standard, while we often get cloth interior. In the US most "premium" cars have leather while xenons are optional it seems ?
I'm not going to be surprised if xenons will be standard equipment on the S in Europe.�
Aug 9, 2012
Lyon Hmmm, what I'd really like is a Yelp! app that integrates with the Nav system. I know that still needs data service, but I'm very rarely without it and, when I am, I'm in an area with no POIs anyway! Still, it would be great to have a built-in database of charging points and convenience stores and the like.�
Aug 9, 2012
jerry33 Yelp is in the browser so it shouldn't be a problem even if there is no direct connection. I never use the POI in the nav system anymore because Yelp is way better (due to the reviews).�
Aug 9, 2012
Lyon I just don't want to have to write down the address from the Yelp! internet page on a piece of paper so that I can later enter into the nav system.
Oh, and that's exactly why I prefer yelp to simply finding a restaurant... reviews!�
Aug 9, 2012
jerry33 Surely there's a copy and paste function.�
Aug 9, 2012
AnOutsider Or, like some systems, addresses end up as links that open in the proper app.�
Aug 9, 2012
contaygious Yeah, I'd love a yelp app like the ipad one because then you could simple click a place and it would navigate to it. That's why I usually use my phone nav in the car even though I have a good nav system.
Tesla just told me this about the nav and tech package:
"If you were to opt for the technology package, turn by turn navigation with 7 years of free updates would be included as part of the functions on the touchscreen. The alternative would be to select the connectivity package, which would allow you 3G connectivity to access Google maps via the internet. The downside would be another data plan, and also no turn by turn voice prompts. I do believe that all Model S will have Wi-Fi connectivity, so you could tether the car anywhere a Wi-Fi signal is available to access the internet."�
Aug 9, 2012
JRod0802 "It's just so much fluff."
�
Aug 9, 2012
AustinPowers I would guess so too.
As we can clearly see from several discussions here, Americans seem to have very different priorities when it comes to features deemed necessary in a car.
Leather for example seems to be regarded as a necessity in the US whereas here it is not standard even in high-end models as most people here don't see it as necessary or desirable (myself included).
Here in Europe, Xenon lights like you said are seen as necessary because they are
a) a significant safety feature as they light the roads far better then halogen lights and
b) require far less maintenance (I have had my current car for almost nine years now and not once up to now have my Xenon lights failed me. In the eight years I had my previous car, I had to replace the halogen lights several times - on both sides.)
Then again, LED lights would be even better for lighting quality, efficiency and durability (again, the full LED rear lights in my current car have never needed a replacement in almost nine years now whereas the standard rear light bulbs in my former car had to be exchanged almost once every one or two years - which apart from the extra cost was fine in those days as you could exchange the bulbs by yourself. In current cars you can't do that anymore without taking the car to a service center - even if you still have standard lighting. Automakers nowadays love to build cars so that you can't repair them yourself anymore).
And I haven't even started about the satnav/poi whining going on. I must be getting old but when I plan a trip to a location I haven't been to before, I read the maps (paper mind you, some of the older folk might remember there used to be such a thing) beforehand, look up where I want to go and then get in my car and drive there, no fuss whatsoever. POI's? My POI is my destination. The nearest gas stations, restaurants etc. are signposted on any motorway, and I don't have time to visit a museum or other supposed POI en-route either (and those are usually signposted as well anyway). And fortunately I am still able to read road-signs, listen to the traffic-jam warnings on the radio and still manage to drive (and entertain a family of four) at the same time. Incredible it seems. Then again as I said I am also able to press a button (or in an emergency - like an empty fob battery, yikes! - even manage the excrutiating task of inserting the key in the door lock and open it!) to unlock my car! Crazy, I know... ;-)�
Aug 9, 2012
epley Reminds me of a funny joke:
Subject: 21st Century
I was visiting my son and daughter-in-law last night when I asked if I could borrow a newspaper.
'This is the 21st century, old man,' my son said. 'We don't waste money on newspapers. Here, you can borrow my iPad.'
I can tell you, that f*$&n fly never knew what hit it...�
Aug 9, 2012
epley Also should add that I have Navigon on my iphone and it's great--lots of POI loaded, accurate, quick, reroutes around traffic. I love it and I'm happy to hear that the navigation on the S will be navigon!�
Aug 9, 2012
spleen +1. If the Navigon software is anything like the Navigon app on my iPhone, I'll be a very happy camper! No persistent Internet connection required.�
Aug 9, 2012
jerry33 No question there, the light is much better from HIDs.
The Xenon lights in Europe must be of far better quality than the ones sold over here then. I am on my second set in nine years and my neighbours are on their fourth set and have far fewer miles on them than I have on mine. The halogen bulbs appear to last at least twice as long as the HIDs (at least the ones I've had--and I've used halogens since the mid-1970s) and are only 10% the price*. ($10 vs $100 for the online HIDs. Go to a dealer and HIDs are $300+installation).
* Exception, the halogens on the VW TDI last no longer than a month.�
Aug 9, 2012
strider Well, Tesla is interested in fleet purchasers but at the end of the day, Tesla wanted to hit a specific base price point so they did what they had to do that. It's not different than any other manufacturer - how many base model MB's or BMW's are sold?�
Aug 9, 2012
pete8314 Exactly. The $50k (in the US) is a psychological price tag, my guess would be that only a tiny proportion of what they sell will be that specification.
In terms of the Xenons, in the UK every (luxury) car I bought I had to pay extra for the lights, so I'm not sure the same rules apply for all of Europe. ON the last car I bought before coming to the US, an SLK, I think the COMAND system was the equivalent of about $6k, and Xenons were another $3k. The Cupholder was a zero-cost option, but not a default, that would be a 'coin tray'. The Keyless go, as Merc call it, was another few thousand, but that was bundled with some other tech options, much the same as what Tesla have done.
For me, the Xenons make it with the cost other package on its own (both in terms of safety and aesthetics, and I also would not be without the keyless entry. My wife, who does not have it on her current Tiguan, will never buy another car without it, having now experienced it.
Every manufacturer bundles this 'stuff' up differently, but normally it's done in such a way that you really 'need' at least a couple of the features; I certainly don't think Tesla have done anything wrong here.�
Aug 9, 2012
goyogi Fluff can be highlydesirable.
Fluffer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But I doubt Tesla would offer such fluff.�
Aug 9, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Well, it took the iPhone a couple of SDK iterations before that showed up! Just saying...�
Aug 9, 2012
CapitalistOppressor Until about 8 years ago I traveled constantly for work, all over the U.S. (48 of 50 states) and Canada. I got so jaded by traveling that I would glance at the basic map provided by Avis (which shows hardly anything) and if it didn't show the town I was driving to I'd just ask which direction it was in. Then I'd just head in that direction and follow street and highway signs to get where I was going.
I'd rarely have any trouble at all finding the town, and almost always would end up driving directly to it. Towns are hard to miss as long as you know it's somewhere "North" of you. Highways are designed to take you to where you want to go, so just find the highway and read the signs. Hotels, big or small tend to be near the highways and airports and are well marked. If what you are looking for isn't right off the highway, you rarely go wrong by heading towards the bright lights and big buildings. Main commercial thoroughfares look a lot different than residential streets (bright lights, big buildings).
It was helpful that my worksites were newspapers, which almost always were located right downtown. But the specific location of the client site was the only thing I would need directions for and thats what a navigation system does. Finding stores, gas stations, hotels and restaurants is childs play, and in the case of hotels its almost never hard to find even your particular hotel. Being in the middle of nowhere makes it just that much easier, since there is less clutter.�
Aug 9, 2012
brianman "And Germans seem to overgeneralize from a small sample of people that disagree with them."�
Aug 9, 2012
brianman Similar delay for the feature on Windows Phone.
"Surely saying a feature will surely be on a new product is folly."�
Aug 9, 2012
AustinPowers Good point. Then again, you might have missed the sarcastic nature of my post ;-)
And about generalizations in general (no pun intended): I know that I can't know the preferences of every American, but at least my observations of and expericences with living specimens of the aformentioned nationality tell me on the whole I am not far off the point. :tongue:�
Aug 9, 2012
AustinPowers LOL, that's a good one I didn't know.�
Aug 10, 2012
Liz G After reading the posts on this thread it appears that the need (or not) for the tech package is a very personal thing and highly dependent on previous experience. For me, I don't currently have most of the options listed in the tech package. So by not getting it, I'm not giving up anything. The old you can't miss what you don't have. For others, though, who have become dependent/used to certain features, it is a must have. I like the fact that Tesla didn't roll all of these items into the base model. As it would have increased the cost and made it more difficult for those of us who have to stretch for this car to do it.
I do wish, however, that they had broken the package up into a couple of packages, say all the lights and keyless entry in one and the nav and home link in another. Or something like that. A few more options would have allowed us to customize our S to better meet our own standards/needs. And I probably would have forked out an extra $1500 for the lights and keyless entry. That keyless entry was one of the perks i was looking forward to. But i can't justify paying $3750 for that perk. And yes I know i get more than just keyless entry for that price but to me the rest of it is just extras that i don't care about so hard to include in the price justification. So, for me I'm going to forgo the tech package and use the savings there to help offset the extra cost of getting the 85kWh battery.�
Aug 10, 2012
contaygious I still think it has keyless entry, just not automatic right? Like you just push the door handle to unlock vs automatic you just walk up and the handlesp out.
They had to bundle things together to keep it simpler probably. I'm just glad they don't have separate pricey packages like other companies which have tech and convenience packages to buy for a lot more!
Even my Infiniti was 5k for tech package and about 1500 for convinience. Rear cam is at least standard on s with an hd option. I feel that tesla is very reasonably pricing their options so far.�
Aug 10, 2012
jerry33 That's correct. It's the automatic entry that I am looking for. Keyless entry isn't all that much more convenient. Automatic entry is a must-have for me.�
Aug 10, 2012
dsm363 I think the tech package is worth it, especially on a car this expensive. The xenon headlights and the added visibility are worth it.�
Aug 10, 2012
contaygious People who don't need xenon must not be driving outside of cities much. Makes a huge difference.�
Aug 10, 2012
efusco I'm sure they're quite nice, but some of us grew up with flash lights duct taped to the side mirrors and managed with those! I'm sure I'll be glad to have the Xenon, but let's not get too carried away with over emphasising their importance. And I've lived in rural areas 90% of my life.�
Aug 10, 2012
AndyM Did you have to drive uphill, both ways, in the snow, too?
This choice is mostly artistic, rather than practical.�
Aug 10, 2012
contaygious I dunno I've had xenon since 2003 and can't go back personally. Vision is much wider and farther ahead. Not purely artistic.
�
Aug 10, 2012
sp4rk Agree 100%!
I got keyless entry on my Leaf for the first time and would never want to revert.
To pay for convenience lights ... that's insulting.
I think, seriously, that the more these "gimmicks" unfold over the next year, MANY reservation holders will walk.
One thing that has me on the fence is this "ever so important" announcement that we've all been waiting for ... for how long ... about "it will all make sense" ... the presumed proprietary public charging infrastructure.
And with the recent fighting in these forums, it's getting less and less appealing.�
Aug 10, 2012
dsm363 They could include the tech package in the base price and raise the base price $3,750 I guess:smile:. That would probably make people happier. They had advertised a $50,000 base price and must have felt they needed to take these things out to make their target price. I don't see this as a gimmick. Yes it would have been nice if it all was standard and under $50k but it is not. Homelink should have been included in the base price but there is nothing wrong or unusual about them putting some desirable features in a package in order to try and maximize their profit. BMW charges $1,000 just for the automatic keyless entry but you can buy it as a stand alone option.�
Aug 10, 2012
Norbert It didn't become quite clear in this thread, as far as I can tell, that the Tech package includes locally stored maps, and doesn't require internet access. (maybe we should inquire if that is still the case).
Whereas Google navigation without the tech package does require internet access.
Like other car companies do, probably to minimize the thousands of possible combinations, and also to make sure that those customers who want more features also get those features whose usefulness isn't as obvious on the day of purchase, they bundle several somewhat unrelated features together in a package. And perhaps also to avoid having to discuss each little option endlessly with each customer. That's of course unfortunate for those who are interested in only one of them. But that's how it is. The deal has to work for both sides.�
Aug 10, 2012
brianman "I'm happier if you make things I want required so that everybody has to pay it."
If this is true, it would support "consumers are stupid" assertions IMO.
I'll hold off saying more because it reminds me of recent political discussions too much.�
Aug 10, 2012
100thMonkey this is what I was told was the difference... excellent post BTW!
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Aug 10, 2012
dsm363 I didn't say I'd be happier or that I wanted things included so other people have to pay for them. Just that some people are not happy with having to add back certain features they feel should be included. If Tesla had raised the price and included them then they would have to take it at that price or not. I think having the option is a good thing. The point was you pay for something if you get it. Tesla had to leave certain things out to hit their target price.
I added a smiley face to the sentence you quoted. That should make the intent more clear since it wasn't I guess.�
Aug 10, 2012
brianman Yah, I didn't read that you felt that way. But the way you phrased it captured perfectly what it seemed some people were asking for.�
Aug 10, 2012
smorgasbord "Keyless entry" is a misnomer. No Model S has a physical key. It has a Fob.
Without the Tech Package, you have to push a button to unlock the car. Hopefully that will present the door handles. I've heard the car can be programmed to unlock all doors on one press, or only the driver's door on the first press with all doors on a second-within-some-time-limit press.
With the Tech Package, you don't even need to press a button to unlock the doors and have the handles presented. Fun, but it's like George Jetson complaining about all that button pushing making his work day tiring. (sorry, couldn't find obligatory YouTube video).
The package should really be called a "Convenience Package":
It's more convenient to not have to push a button to unlock the car.
It's more convenient to have ambient lighting inside the car at night.
It's more convenient to have more song storage onboard rather than have a USB stick.
It's more convenient to have 7 years of map updates instead of 2, and to have POIs stored locally, etc.
It's more convenient to have built-in Homelink instead of a garage door opened clipped to your visor.
It's more convenient to have side mirrors that dim automatically instead of squinting your eyes.
It's more convenient to have the rear liftgate be powered instead of lifting it manually.
It's more convenient to have brighter headlights than it is to drive more slowly with dimmer headlights.
Did I miss anything?
As for these options all being grouped together, that's just fine. This package is about a 5% add-on to the price of the car, so there's not much reason to split it up.�
Aug 10, 2012
ItsNotAboutTheMoney OK, I don't mean to get pedantic, but ...
(Remote) Keyless entry just means you don't need to put the key in the door to unlock it.
Smart key means you don't have to do anything to unlock the door and have push-button or pedal start.
It seems that RKE is so common that people call smart key RKE.
I have 1-door smart key on my Prius II and it's nice, but I'd have readily skipped it to save money or swap it for a comfortable seat. (Not that it's particularly _un_comfortable). I can unlock and lock using a fob by feel. I think the only thing about it I'd really miss would be the ease of cracking open the windows after getting out of the car and remembering that it's going to be hot that day.�
Aug 11, 2012
AustinPowers You obviously have never driven a car with Xenon lights otherweise you wouldn't make such a remark.
Having to travel a lot at night through forresty areas or winding roads with no road lamps, which is basically anywhere outside of towns here, I have really come to appreciate the advantages of Xenon over halogen.
It has got nothing to do with artistic versus practical - it's a safety feature. And even though I do like to generalize (or so I've been told ;-)), it really is a fact that HID's are lighting roads better than halogen - by an order of magnitude!
Actually imho the Xenon lights are the only really essential thing the tech package offers. And like safety belts, airbags, ABS and ESP, they ought to be mandatory standard equipment on any car.�
Aug 11, 2012
bonnie I currently live in a rural area (for those of you who have not, that means narrow windy roads with no street lights, very little traffic, lots of animals that can dart out in front of you). I upgraded to xenon lights earlier this year and now the distance and the width of my field of vision on low beams far exceeds what I had on high beams previously. The photos posted here are very realistic in representing the difference.
Over emphasizing the importance? Artistic, rather than practical? Absolutely not. It's a much safer drive home now. And while people may have made do with flashlights taped to side mirrors in the past, that's no reason not to have a safer, better alternative.�
Aug 11, 2012
AndyM I stand corrected. It shows my experience is based on city and/well-lit driving mostly.
I am very glad the tech package will help school me, too.�
Aug 13, 2012
AustinPowers And even better if they are implemented in the form of adaptive cornering lights with dynamic light, meaning they
a) adjust automatically between high- and low-beam, depending on oncoming traffic (actually the systems VW and other automakers offer don't just switch the high-beams on and off but continuously adjust the lighted area so you can leave high-beams on all the time, not sure Model S offers that?) like so:
(Sorry for the description in German but I could't find the equivalent image on the UK or US website of VW)*
b) light around the corner - old tech but fascinating when experiencing it live (I'm glad to have it in my car, extremely helpful on those winding roads through forrests around here)
Hopefully Model S will offer those two features with their Xenon lights in future (or better still with full LED lighting).
*It roughly translates as:
"... You can leave your high-beams on all the time, without blinding oncoming traffic. A camera based system continuously monitors oncoming traffic, road lamps etc. and permanently adjusts the lighted area accordingly".�
Aug 13, 2012
dflye Circling back to the details of the onboard navigation vs google navigation, here's a few excerpts from conversing with Tesla that contradict what pretty much everyone (including myself) assumes about onboard navigation actually including POI data that doesn't require a google search:
To which I replied:
And the latest answer from Tesla (at which point I stopped pestering them, as there definitely seems to be a bit of confusion on the navigation implementation):
So, to recap: Current info from Tesla indicates that POI data is NOT part of the tech package navigation system, just the info needed for turn-by-turn routing.�
Aug 13, 2012
Todd Burch Can't figure out if I like this or not.
On the one hand, doing POI searches via the web means the data is much more complete and up-to-date. On the other hand--as you point out--without cell coverage your options are limited.
Although my initial instinct is that with the computing power and potential data storage capability aboard the Model S they should be able to provide something much more advanced, thinking about it further I think web based should mostly be OK.
If they REALLY want to push the technology, use some decent storage (64GB or so?) for a large database of onboard POIs that continually get updated via the web when the car is in its "home port" (garage). That way you have the best of both worlds.�
Aug 13, 2012
mnx Just thinking outloud here... I would think anytime you are looking for a POI you'd have no problem getting cell coverage. Out in the boonies there are no POI's to search for.
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Aug 13, 2012
efusco Not necessarily. We're not talking about barren desert, but rather locations with poor or spotty coverage. In the Ozarks of Missouri and Arkansas the cell towers are widely scattered and the hills and trees often block signals, and yet one needs to find restaurants and other locales in those area. There are plenty of "things" even though fairly remote from large cities.�
Aug 13, 2012
brianman So much for "take me to the location in North America that is farthest from Wal-Mart."�
Aug 13, 2012
Norbert I don't see why you thought Tesla's second response indicates confusion. Your question was about entering LAT/LON, and street addresses, for turn-by-turn navigation. The answer was yes, both with cell-coverage and without cell coverage, as in both cases turn-by-turn is handled by the on-board Navigon system, which does support LAT/LON and street addresses as destinations.
A question I'd have in that context is whether one can pre-enter, and store, a list of destinations, both for a specific trip for in-between destinations, as well as for frequent destinations one wants to go to from different starting points (home, work, favorite coffee shop / restaurant / etc). Might be called "favorites" or so.�
Aug 13, 2012
clea +1 ... just got back from a week of being "off grid" in the Laurentians. I could've happily stayed disconnected the whole time but when you have to entertain two early teens sometimes the need to search for activities becomes imperative to maintain your sanity and the only way to do that is to drive to the closest town that has coverage.�
Aug 13, 2012
dflye Sorry, I guess I left out the first few rounds of the email exchange, where initially the Tesla rep indicated that the Navigon POI database was included with the tech package annual navigation refresh.
I left those earlier emails out, as my email exchange was originally asking about the ability to load custom POI data from an external source, something that pretty much any GPSr can handle these days, and also part of the Navigon spec it appears. Once it turned out that POI data was out of the picture, didn't see the need to add any more distraction to the topic here. :wink:
Here's a bit more of the last email exchange:
So the question on storing 'favorites' was basically not answered. I gave up on the email exchange at that point, didn't seem much point in further discussion with the Tesla rep until I have an actual Model S in my garage to play with.�
Aug 13, 2012
jerry33 The diagram makes it appear that the bright lights will be left on until there is a certain distance between the cars. If that's the case, then the system is a fail. If you can see either the headlights or taillights of another car, then your bright lights should be off--regardless of distance--because the bright lights will still dazzle the other driver's eyes.�
Aug 13, 2012
Norbert At least 'favorites' is the kind of thing that might come with a software update, based on customer requests. I think I asked about it at the October event, but don't remember the answer (probably too early), and hope I'll remember to ask the next time.�
Aug 13, 2012
AustinPowers No they won't, not with these systems. That's the beauty of it. I've seen it in action, it's unbelievable until you have seen it work.
For a lack of a better description, the system "cuts out" the portion of the light that would hit oncoming traffic (or cars driving in front of you). Believe me, it does work perfectly.�
Aug 13, 2012
jerry33 That would be cool, so the diagram isn't quite correct then. It appeared as if there was some distance where the brights would still be full with oncoming cars rather than switch the moment you could see the car with your own eyes. I get what you mean about the light angling down, my question was more "When does this happen?" in terms of visibility of the oncoming car. In other words, if you can see the other car's head or taillights, then it should go into the no-glare mode immediately.�
Aug 13, 2012
woof One of the first newspaper apps available on the iPad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSJm3nIicK4�
Aug 13, 2012
djwang2000
That's what I thought ... until about 6 weeks after getting a car with keyless entry/start and I had to drive my wife's car. Yeah, that task of taking the key out, pushing the button, etc. really, really seemed (and still seems) like a burden. I too, will always opt for this feature in the future. I'd venture to guess that a LOT of people think it's a ridiculous option -- until they have it for a while...�
Aug 13, 2012
AustinPowers I guess you're right. One gets used to a lot of things once considered unnecessary.
I was just amazed when the original poster said the keyless access feature alone would be - to him - worth the price of the tech package. That seemed a little ridiculous to me.�
Aug 13, 2012
AustinPowers Yes, the diagram is a bit misleading.
Simply put, basically the brights are on all the time. The system adjusts the path of the beam according to the circumstances, so in effect, the brights appear like low-beams to cars driving in front of or towards you.�
Aug 14, 2012
jkirkebo With xenon lights, there are no separate high beam bulbs. It's all (low&high beams) done by a single xenon bulb and a motor which adjusts the light pattern. The new VW system is probably just a new version of this, allowing more settings between low & high beams.�
Aug 14, 2012
AustinPowers Correct. That's why I said "...appear like low-beams..."�
Aug 14, 2012
jerry33 Right, I got that part. My question was when do they shift? Hopefully, it's as soon as your eyes could detect a headlight or taillight.�
Aug 20, 2012
DriverOne What is "convenience lighting", anyway?�
Aug 20, 2012
spatterso911 Convenience lighting is lighting in areas that are not traditionally lit, such as footwells, door handles, and in some vehicle manufacturers, small directed lights at the center console.�
Aug 20, 2012
SCW-Greg Right now convenience lighting is in the front two foot wells, and on the outside door handles (when out/presented) - throws light down to the ground. I would like to see some rear seating lighting - on the floor particularly, and a couple of pin lights on "opportunity console" area too.�
Aug 20, 2012
DriverOne Thanks Greg. The non-tech-pacakge car would still get "regular car" interior flood lighting when the doors are open, is that right?�
Aug 20, 2012
contaygious I had a rep show me the special tech lighting while I was in the car and couldn't even see it. It's pretty small. I love tech package, but this is not a reason to get it.�
Aug 20, 2012
SCW-Greg Right, two overhead lights between the visors, and TM has said they are reworking the lights for the rear passenger area. The theory is they'll be over each door entry in the back. Not sure if the units coming off the line now have that or if they're on the due bill.
The tail gate has a downward light and two cargo lights near the corners just above floor level. Frunk has a light casting back from the front side.�
Aug 20, 2012
MikeK Regarding POI: I would like to have an on-board database that is available as a backup to the Google search, for those times that connectivity is absent. It's not hard at all to find areas with little or no coverage. Highway 1 between Santa Cruz and Pacifica is rife with such areas.
Also, I would really like to be able to upload my address book to the car so that I could navigate to a friend's address easily. Obviously, I don't need the addresses of my friends on the East Coast, but the folks who live in the area would be a welcome addition.�
Aug 20, 2012
SCW-Greg Not just for connectivity issues, but speed in map refresh too! Maybe Google can (or does) offer some form of caching for this purpose.
It would be great if, say via blue tooth, it could tap your contacts on your phone.�
Aug 20, 2012
MikeK You can sync your phone's contacts to the Model S over Bluetooth, but I don't know if that brings address information along, or just names and numbers.�
Jan 18, 2013
Culley Bunker Tech Package Vs No Tech Package.
I have a question. I did not get the tech pack. I though for what you get it was a bit expensive.
But Im wondering how entry to the car works. Do the handles come out? Does it unlock?
What is the procedure.
Thank you�
Jan 18, 2013
Blurry_Eyed I have the tech package, but I believe to get the handles to come out without it you have to double click on the roof of the keyfob to extend the handles (assuming the car is in the locked state). The double click unlocks the car and presents the handles. Single click will lock the car and retract the handles. If the car was already unlocked, you can tap on the handles and they will extend.�
Jan 20, 2013
Chas F I could be wrong, but I think the car senses the key fob and unlocks as you approach. To open, you can click the top of the fob once (to extend drivers door handle), twice (to extend handles on all four doors), or touch the drivers handle to extend it.
Someone please correct me if this is not right.�
Jan 20, 2013
dsm363 That is correct. With the tech package, you can keep the key fob in your pocket as you walk up. Handles auto extend, doors unlock and you simply open the door.�
Jan 20, 2013
strider One click on the top of the fob locks the car. Two click unlocks the car and extends all 4 handles. There is no driver/other doors feature. I believe (this is from memory) you always have to double-click the fob to unlock the car - touching the handle with the fob in your pocket is a tech package feature.�
Jan 21, 2013
Chas F Thanks for the clarification. Two questions:
1. What does a single click do if the car is already unlocked?
2. What Tech Package scenario allows you to touch the door handle to extend, if auto-extend is part of the package?�
Jan 21, 2013
ddruz Perhaps someone who has a car without the Tech package could chime in on the door unlock / handle extend situation?
From email correspondence with my rep and in concert with the spec page which says keyless entry for the standard car, my impression has been that the doors of a non-Tech package car unlock as you approach with a key FOB and you can then extend them by pressing the handle. I personally would be very much interested in how things work from a non-Tech car owner since my car will not have the Tech package.�
Jan 22, 2013
strider Single click locks the car.
The auto-extend is a user setting with the tech package. You don't have to enable that feature. So if that feature is turned off you can walk up to the car and touch the handle to unlock, extend, and open, or you can double-click to unlock and extend.
- - - Updated - - -
My car has the tech package and I'm going from memory of talking to Tesla store reps so take it for what it's worth but I don't think your statement is correct. The non-tech car still has "keyless" entry as there is no key that you enter into a lock and turn to unlock the doors. However you must press the buttons on the fob. This is similar to how other keyless systems work (our Subaru, Jeep, etc) where you have lock and unlock buttons on the fob. You need the tech package if you do not want to have to touch the fob to lock and unlock the car.�
Jan 22, 2013
Zextraterrestrial + if you are standing around your car for too long and the handles retract (~1 min?) you can push them to re-emerge the handle (in addition to what Strider said)�
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