Chủ Nhật, 1 tháng 1, 2017

Saleen announces their version of a Model S part 2

  • Aug 17, 2014
    JRP3
    So they lowered the gearing for better acceleration, but I doubt his claim of longer range from the lower gearing. They said "racing gears", which might mean straight cut, which might be more efficient? Same HP so they didn't get into modding the motor and inverter. A shame, but expected. I do like the new front end.
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    GaryREM
    Wow.

    Need some details, but like the no nose cone front end which appears to actually be designed to improve cooling and generate down force. Totally unclear what is happening with gear box because increasing gear ratio supposedly helps performance, but would think that wasn't an issue and torque availability was not a problem.

    So many questions...
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    JRP3
  • Aug 17, 2014
    gg_got_a_tesla
    Oh man, that nose is hideous :(

    0119fd5abdc7883fc3909859d6e4ab5a.jpg
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    JRP3
    To me it looks better in the video than in that picture, so it may look better in real life.
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    Johan
    I don't hate it. Maybe a bit too much Batmobile with the creases? It'll be exciting to see 0-60 times and if they were able to keep cooling up for track use!
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    Jason S
    I think the nose/hood redesign is pretty clever. A bit of a maintenance nightmare tho; at low speed you'll have rain washing down it. :tongue:

    An 11.39 gear ratio would increase top speed significantly, wouldn't it? Low end might be just a bit sluggish, but maybe not?
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    Johan
    I believe it's the stock ratio. As Jason says increasing ratio would increase top speed at the cost of acceleration, right?
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    GaryREM
    Isn't that a reduction ratio? To reduce the hi speed motor to something reasonable?

    - - - Updated - - -

    I thought it looked great in the video. Very clean without the nose cone.
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    JRP3
    Other way around. Higher numerical ratio = "lower" gearing. Lower top speed, better 0-60.
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    Johan
    Yes of course, sorry for adding confusion above.
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    Norbert
    Sounded like they'll make an announcement tomorrow, which I'd guess will include the numbers.
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    BlueTan85
    Voldemort front-end... $194k....LOL.... no thanks
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    stopcrazypp
    The big question is if the new cooling system is effective in significantly extending the amount of time before the power is cut off.
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    yobigd20
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA pricing starting at $152k with no "engine" modifications. What a joke! Who would pay those kinds of pricing for simplistic body kit changes with no real performance upgrades???? This has to be the worst upgrade attempt for the MS yet.
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    JRP3
    If you pick the lower gearing, coupled with the weight reduction options, you will have a faster 0-60 time than any current Model S. You may also get better cooling. I'm sure someone will pay for those upgrades, probably not many of them.
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    Johan
    They better have a real good wheel/tire and suspension setup in order to keep traction with their new gearing, to put all that torque to the ground without slipping, if they're going to improve 0-60 times. I've done 4.0 seconds (0-100 kmph) in my car with stock 19" Contis. Now they go from 9.73 to 11.39 reduction - 17 % more reduction. Will that give them something like a 3.7 second time in real life? Or even better???
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    James Anders
    Wonder if you can purchase items ala carte. Those carbon-ceramic brakes would be nice. Less weight, less rotational inertia, less unsprung mass.
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    60TTuC
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    JRP3
    :smile: The cooling enhancements must be working.

    The stock p85 is already there, so....?
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    Johan
    He says they had to "change the software" with regards to ABS and Traction Control. I wonder how "deep" they've been in the software - how much (or little) did Tesla cooperate with them? My guess they've never been inside the "Tesla software" but only in the secondary specific controllers (3rd party?) for ABS/TC.
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    Twiddler
    Front end reminds me of the late-90s Lexus SC400..
    1998-lexus-sc-400-luxury-sport-cpe_100027491_m.jpg
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    WarpedOne
    Full throttle != full power

    MSP is officially at 4.2s
    New gearbox in Saleen 416 should put it around 3.75s if grip is "linearly improved" i.e. it does not waste more torque then MSP's TC.
    It could be even faster if it managed to deliver even more grip.
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    yobigd20
    that's some expensive cupholders ... Oh and they "added sound effects" to it too so it's no longer silent. -$195k for it fully optioned out from Saleen. It better spit out gold from those front air intakes to make this worthwhile.
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    JRP3
    True, he could have been putting along at reduced power with the pedal mashed to the floor. However he did seem enthusiastic about the result so hopefully the better cooling did the trick.

    Don't know if it's possible but maybe he misspoke and meant to say "middle to low 3 sec category".
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  • Aug 17, 2014
    Trnsl8r
    Indeed. Looks like a Panamera - and that's not a good thing.
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  • Aug 18, 2014
    thimo
    They put in straight cut gears for the final drive.
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  • Aug 18, 2014
    Hans (Amsterdam)
    You will get a similar result when using lower profile tyres.
    E.g. 245/30R19 instead of the standard 245/45R19 will result in the same effect as changing the final gear ratio to 10.75.
    Of course it will lower the car 1.5 inch, but that is a good thing on the track, is it not ?
    Probably with this tyre setup a 85S will beat 85P (with standard tyres) at the 1/4 mile.
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  • Aug 18, 2014
    brandonmbeard
    Double the cost of my P85 for not much more? I'm perplexed by the enthusiastic statement about the sounding like an indy car. The goal should have been silent. I also bet the Saleen version voids every warranty from Tesla. Sorry Saleen - you really haven't done anything my local customization shop couldn't have done.
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  • Aug 18, 2014
    Zextraterrestrial
    I have run 19" 275/30 series Potenza re-11 vs same spec S w/ 21" conti's (245/35) and we matched 1/4 mile times
    2" diameter difference in the rear!
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  • Aug 18, 2014
    WarpedOne
    It is not the diameter, it is radius that matters.
    275/30R19 has 12,7" radius
    245/35R21 has 13,9" radius

    ~10% difference that should result in ~9% stronger acceleration i.e. shorter time if all else were really the same.
    Matched times strongly suggest insufficient grip and TC limiting power delivery.

    LSD should help in this regard. AWD will help even more.
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  • Aug 18, 2014
    Zextraterrestrial
    huh? diameter = 2(radius)
    25.4" vs 27.8"(stock)

    and yes traction is limited on the strip w/ both set ups. my 19" all season tires were faster than either of the above
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  • Aug 18, 2014
    tomas
    Right, and that's why a tuner is a tuner - because they do ALL of the things required to squeeze out useable performance... not just one. I'd guess that between the drive ratio, wheel, tire, weight, and suspension changes, Saleen found the harmony to produce a noticeable improvement.

    Having said that, like the vast majority of posters here, I'm not impressed. Nose and hood? ychhhh!!!! Paint color? Blah!!!! I wanna see electric orange or something that positively glows for 25k extra. Interior? Looks incremental. Indy drivetrain sounds? I'm past that, now grooving on silent drivetrain!!! I ain't buying it, no way!
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  • Aug 18, 2014
    WarpedOne
    Sure. It is just that torque "effects" via radius. Wheel diameter difference in inches does not tell the real difference between both setups. The real difference is ~10% difference in propulsion force that cannot manifest itself because of insufficient grip even for the "weaker" setup.

    Wasn't Saleen supposed to reveal more details on their FourSixteen today?
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  • Aug 18, 2014
    TEG
    volde2.jpg
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  • Aug 18, 2014
    artsci
    Indeed! To cite another famous statement about a car design, it looks like a Panamera sucking a lemon:) I wouldn't want to be seen dead in that car.

    And Indy sounds? Please.... Who's the moron who thought it would be a good thing to make a silent electric car sound just like the god-awful noisy poison emitters we EV drivers want to avoid like the plague.
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  • Aug 18, 2014
    JRP3
    My guess is the gear set does not make anywhere near as much noise as an Indy car, but it probably does have something of a high pitched whine at speed. And Lord Voldemort is a bad ass, even when sucking a lemon, so I'm OK with the look :wink:
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  • Aug 18, 2014
    trils0n
    Listen to the videos of Mission Motorcycles if you want to hear the whine that a straight cut gear makes. More like a turbine. Not sure how loud it is in real life, but the videos aren't particularly obnoxious. I'd still go for silent though.
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  • Aug 18, 2014
    Chris TX
    DerpTesla.jpg
    Sorry, couldn't resist.

    You increase the gear ratio, you get better 0-60 and possibly hit redline on the motor right around the finish line at the quarter mile mark.
    Software tweaks were needed to accommodate the new gear ratio, otherwise ABS and traction control are going to mess up.
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  • Aug 18, 2014
    James Anders
    I don't know if this has been proven. I heard racing gears but that doesn't necessarily always mean straight cut. Did you specifically read this?
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  • Aug 18, 2014
    Denarius
    They stated it multiple times in the different videos posted.
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  • Aug 19, 2014
    richardmillie
    Model S based Saleen Four Sixteen



    2 minute chat with Steve Saleen regarding the Model S based Four Sixteen at Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance
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  • Aug 19, 2014
    darthvdr
    Even though there is wealth out there, I just cannot imagine many customers taking up on this aftermarket option.
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  • Aug 20, 2014
    JRP3
    I think we need to see actual performance specs. If it gets sub 4 sec 0-60, better handling, and extended track time at full power, I can see some people getting it. Especially in areas where there a a lot of Model S's and someone wants to stand out a bit more from the crowd.
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  • Aug 20, 2014
    WarpedOne
    Yup, I have a feeling when some "real-world-testing-results" are published, people all over the net will drool.
    Sub 4 0-60 time is a given, better handling also.
    Extended track time without power limit .... wish wish wish.
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  • Aug 20, 2014
    Electric700
    Saleen FourSixteen Based on the Tesla Model S is Shown at Pebble Beach

    Saleen made some modifications to a Tesla Model S, and was also able to improve the 0-60 MPH time. The price point of the modified car is close to $152,000. More here: Saleen's FourSixteen shocks the lawn at Pebble Beach
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  • Aug 20, 2014
    mnx
    Sounds like it's not much of a difference since a lot of people have clocked their P85/+'s "in the low 4s mark" already. With lower gearing I wonder what the top speed is now?
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  • Aug 20, 2014
    ggr
    Did he really say that they added noise? Or is something they did in the drive train noisy?
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  • Aug 20, 2014
    Seth Pascale
    At about the 31 second mark they come up from under the car and you can see what looks like a speaker tucked behind the mesh on the front grill. I will be very interested to hear what it sounds like under throttle as well as the new 0-60 time.
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  • Aug 20, 2014
    richardmillie
    no audio enhancements via speakers (interior or exterior). it is claimed that the "mini F1 like sound" is the result of new gears.
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  • Aug 26, 2014
    etheric_jerry
    Saleen 416 Model S...........anybody INTERESTED??????

    Yup, now in it's wisdom SALEEN a noted company that has modded Mustangs over the years has taken a basic S model and turned it into a Semi HOT ROD the 416 [ with a rear wing( of course!!) and different front nose different gearing, anybody see these cars or better yet will any one consider buying one? And how the heck can one HOT ROD a tesla, like juice it up with more battery's or re-wind the motor like we did as kids with slot cars??????? Still intrigues me and wonder how many they will sell..................... A $156G Tesla?! Saleen Foursixteen upgrades Model S performance, styling - NY Daily News saleen-model-s-1.jpg


    Saleen customizes Tesla's Model S
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  • Aug 26, 2014
    brianman
    I only skimmed but...

    1. How do you get to the 12V terminals? Do you have to remove the whole front end?
    2. What is the advertised top speed?
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  • Aug 26, 2014
    Chris TX
    1. Maybe they've relocated them? Don't know.
    2. Quick math with their new gear ratio shows 15,000RPM (documented redline of the Model S motor) will net you 114.5MPH.

    This is assuming redline nets you 134MPH as documented on the 21" wheels.

    My old Ford Contour would go past that. :(
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  • Aug 26, 2014
    brianman
    Ok, then I can already say I've driven faster than the Saleen 416 -- multiple times (even off-track) -- in my stock Signature P85 (delivered Nov 2012). And I'm only a "recent" track enthusiast.

    Not exactly the kind of tag line that Saleen fans will appreciate. ;)
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  • Aug 26, 2014
    richkae
    I don't care about the specs. I want to see a track test.
    A track test against a stock P85+, and some ICE competition. Multiple laps on a twisty racetrack.

    They claim that they have improved the motor cooling so that you get more time before the car limits power due to heat.
    If they really have, then that and the wheel/brake/suspension stuff may make the Model S a much more fun track car.

    Until I see a track test, I will reserve judgement.
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  • Aug 26, 2014
    yobigd20
    hahaha I was trying to pin the description with something that looked so familiar to me and I couldn't put words to it but you hit the nail right on the head with this one. definitely the 'Voldemort' front end!!

    - - - Updated - - -

    FYI they updated their web site now. http://saleen.com/foursixteen.html

    saleen3.png

    saleen1.png

    saleen2.png
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  • Aug 26, 2014
    brianman
    This is about the only thing that interests me about the Saleen adventure so far. I'm not optimistic that they've done anything substantial here though, unfortunately.
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  • Aug 26, 2014
    qwk
    Wow, they did go with straight cut gears. This thing is going to be loud. Tesla's drive unit noise is going to seem silent compared to Saleen's.
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  • Aug 26, 2014
    Chris TX
    Is it just me or is this the slowest (top speed) Saleen ever produced? I'm not sure I'd like that claim.
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  • Aug 26, 2014
    JRP3

    Bigger radiator, more powerful fans, and a bigger water pump. Sounds substantial to me, not much more you could do other than a CO2 misting system.
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  • Aug 26, 2014
    brianman
    Unless of course the firmware in the car uses specific time or other criteria to (over?)protect things.

    I agree with RichKae. We need to see track performance to really know if they've done much.

    If you can go 20 minutes keeping up with the ICE brethren without seeing the "dashed line of sadness" then they have my interest. Not to buy the spoiler or the nose or the other "stuff" I don't want or need, but interest in maybe giving some feedback to Tesla on maybe (I'm dreaming?...) some OEM-sanctioned adjustments to make for performance driving of the Model S for more than 1 lap.
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  • Aug 26, 2014
    Bill D
    I've heard an unsubstantiated rumor that Weismann http://weismann.net/ is suppling the gearing and the locking differential to Saleen for their Tesla modifications.

    Quick-change gearing that you could easily change at the dragstip would be very interesting. I almost can't wait for the 8-year warranty to expire.
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  • Aug 26, 2014
    JRP3
    Interesting, but I doubt it.
    I agree as well, but given the new gearing and the increased cooling I think some real world improvements are likely to have been made, as long as you don't care about top speed.
    The nose is part of the increased airflow and better cooling.
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  • Aug 26, 2014
    WarpedOne
    The only alternative explanation I can come up with is that the overheating part has so weak heat removal that COLD coolant that many have tried already helped zilch, nada.
    Rotor.
    Being so hard to remove heat from they didn't even bother mounting temperature monitoring and they just calculate energy used in last N seconds, if it is higher than some X, they know rotor is to hot and the need to ease up.

    If I had to bet on anything I'd bet Saleen did not improve on this "1 hot lap limitation"
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  • Aug 27, 2014
    Matias
    ^But then it does not make any sense to improve cooling. I don't think they would be that stupid.
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  • Aug 27, 2014
    WarpedOne
    Maybe yes and no.
    Maybe there are scenarios where something else overheats before rotor. It takes more time and less "energetic" driving but still enough heat to cause temps to rise. Improved cooling would improve this situations.

    Or they simply removed software limit and they let the rotor "cook itself" if pushed hard enough for long enough.
    It would not fail instantly but its projected lifetime will not be 1.2M miles anymore. In a racing car they can afford to shorten the lifetime to ~1/10 with no worries.

    That heat from rotor flows through shaft and bearings into reduction gearbox and heats it up. They may have used more heat resistant lubricants and/or they may have dropped the "no maintenance" clause on the gearbox.
    IIRC Tesla specifies 12years lifetime on gearbox lubricant. Changing used/burned lubricants in racing cars is standard practice.

    I change my bet : I bet they just removed the software limit.
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  • Aug 27, 2014
    JRP3
    You mean that people have tried pre cooling the coolant or something and it made no difference? How cold did they get it?

    With a liquid cooled rotor it should not be difficult to remove heat from it. Even without a liquid cooled rotor most of the DIY setups we've seen have inverter over temp problems long before the motor. The rotor is a big chunk of metal that should take some time to heat up, and can handle higher temps than the electronics.
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  • Aug 27, 2014
    Chris TX
    Saleen said it's a MaxGrip "enhancement" made by these guys:

    Weir Performance - MAXGRIP LSD Kits
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  • Aug 27, 2014
    Matias
    How do you liquid cool rotor? I mean I understand liquid cooling stator, but how do you liquid cool rotor?

    IIRC Tesla has patent about hollow rotor shaft being liquid cooled, but is it implemented?
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  • Aug 27, 2014
    tom66
    Hollow rotor, coolant passes through it.
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  • Aug 27, 2014
    Denarius
    How much of a difference will the weight savings from the wheels and rotors make?
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  • Aug 27, 2014
    WarpedOne
    Yes, "icecold": The Ice Tesla Lappeth
    A few ways:
    a) you make it hollow and circulate liquid through it. You sacrifice metal volume producing torque hence getting lower torque/power motor. Cooling liquid also eats into efficiency.
    b) you replace air between rotor and stator with coolant. You drasticaly increase drag and hence reduce torque, power and efficiency.

    Industrial machines therefore don't use liquids but gasses - hydrogen. It doesn't increase drag but improves heat removal.
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  • Aug 27, 2014
    JRP3
    I remember that, it was a ridiculously bad attempt at cooling. All it may have done is cool the pack down some and reduce it's power output, while not significantly cooling the motor and inverter coolant loop. Until you put a monitor on the various cooling loops and measure actual temperatures you don't really know what is being done.
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  • Aug 27, 2014
    qwk
    I think that the only way to get the Model S to do better on a racetrack, is to alter the firmware. The current firmware limits are, active cooling at 50*C, and passive cooling at 30*C. Tesla engineering uses a race mode, which turns on cooling manually, and pre cools everything before making laps. Ideally this would be done while plugged in, so that battery energy isn't wasted on pre-cooling.

    Having said that, I really doubt that this will be implemented into production cars. Racing+very long drivetrain warranty=much more warranty expense for Tesla.
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  • Aug 27, 2014
    WarpedOne
    It was bad but still I cannot claim it did not in fact cooled the liquids and metal a bit.
    And if it was liquid temperature that matters, it would show up as prolonged full power. Maybe just a half lap, maybe just a quarter of lap. But not zero improvement.
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  • Aug 27, 2014
    Matias
    Wouldn't that require access to source code?
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  • Aug 27, 2014
    JRP3

    I bet it didn't do anything to the internal coolant temperature at all. So yes, I would expect zero improvement.
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  • Aug 27, 2014
    woof
    No. The values used to compare against are stored somewhere in the firmware. Just "patch" new values overtop the old ones. That's the old school way. Trouble is that in the new school of encryption signed firmware means that system could detect this tampering and refuse to run, or prevent a future update.
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  • Aug 28, 2014
    WarpedOne
    Saleen is big enough name to get the keys to FW doors.
    Sure they had to sign some documents and blah blah but they are not just another yard mechanic.
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  • Aug 28, 2014
    yobigd20
    I seriously doubt this. Tesla would not give up a line of code to Toyota for the rav4 EV project and they are much bigger than Saleen. Insight: Toyota-Tesla Partnership

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  • Aug 28, 2014
    ecarfan
    Hmm...I would not assume that Tesla allowed Saleen to access the firmware.

    I doubt it...
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  • Sep 6, 2014
    Calvin.K
    Tesla Model S, Fully Tuned: Saleen FourSixteen - XCAR

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  • Sep 7, 2014
    WarpedOne
    I was not assuming but speculating about chances.
    It turned out Tesla did nothing to help. Saleen is yet another customer that buys the car and runs with it into his garage.
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  • Sep 7, 2014
    Matias
    Modifications void Tesla warranties and Saleen is on the edge of bankruptcy. Big risk for buyer.
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  • Sep 7, 2014
    ExoticAffinity
    Saw the FourSixteen in person yesterday - It looks much nicer than I expected. Here's a short video with a hard acceleration at the end.



    Sounds like a life-size R/C car!
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  • Sep 10, 2014
    JRP3
  • Sep 10, 2014
    yobigd20
  • Oct 10, 2014
    Ames
    LOL

    Time to bring on the Saleen Six Ninety One?

    If you recently put down $$$ for a P85 and are feeling bad, spare a thought for folks who ordered one of these...
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  • Oct 10, 2014
    JRP3
    Seriously, what's the point of doing an aftermarket build like this if the OEM can make it irrelevant in a few months?
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  • Oct 10, 2014
    yobigd20
    I doubt anybody ordered one at all.
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  • Nov 25, 2014
    yobigd20
    ok my bad, one person ordered one. Saleen Delivers the First Tesla Saleen FOURSIXTEEN

    so they made one. sold one. I doubt they'll sell anymore. They have $7,261 in cash and $5,634,841 in debt and are looking for a buyer to bail them out. Mustang Tuner Saleen Says It Owes Millions Of Dollars, Has Only $7,261 they are bankrupt and expect to default since they can't pay their next bills, which are already overdue by 90 days. they will probably shut down operations before the end of the year...

    oh and since the name FOURSIXTEEN is wrong, they changed it to 'ST380' and 'ST691' depending on which model you order. Saleen Renames Its Modified Tesla Model S The ST
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  • Nov 25, 2014
    breser
    I don't understand how Saleen can be saying that their ST691 is going to do 0-60 in under 3 seconds when nobody has other than Tesla has a P85D. Hell nobody has even gotten a proper test drive (sorry test rides don't count).
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  • Nov 25, 2014
    rtz
    Gear it down low enough and it would absolutely book. Imagine putting some slicks on it too...
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  • Nov 29, 2014
    lloyds
    There is very little value proposition with the Saleen especially now that Tesla has the D for a lot less
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  • Nov 30, 2014
    Mayhemm
    I know this has probably been discussed to death further up thread but that noise they stuck on it killed any interest I had in the former FourSixteen. Who would want to drive around sounding like a giant RC car?
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  • May 17, 2015
    Kipernicus
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