Jan 26, 2012
evinfairfax I'm a new reservation holder, and have been reading this forum for a couple of months now. Excellent information!
I have never ordered anything that I can think of that takes 15 months to deliver. Except a house, of course, but with a house you can see progress and have some involvement each month. And with kids, they only take about 9 months to make. So I'm not even sure I will be still interested in this car in 15 months! But we'll see.
My question is about my view of the car as a car. Like most I haven't driven this car yet, but my interest in it is perhaps different from most others. For me, the EV aspect of it is maybe the 4th or 5th important issue. My biggest interest in the vehicle is the idea of having (1) a very low CG, (2) a wide torque band, and (3) the smoothest, least-annoying, transmission possible - no transmission at all.
In my mind, this should be a very fun car but in a much more practical package, albeit with much less luxury than other cars in this price range. So I'm choosing this as a fun car to drive with a better drivetrain than my other choices in this price class (CLS-class, A7, or 4-door 6-series), trading off luxury for driving physics that those cars just can't have.
So if the EV aspect of it is not that important to me (it's nice, but not my focus), then is the car itself worth the tradeoffs? Is anyone else thinking of buying this for the same reasons as I am?�
Jan 26, 2012
AnOutsider Being an EV isn't at the top of my list, but the things I like (expected driving characteristics) ARE because it's an (well designed) EV. I like the styling for the most part, and I'm extremely excited by all the tech and doodads (door handles, touch screen etc).
I think I'm most happy about the 4.4 0-60 and linear acceleration tho!�
Jan 26, 2012
Doug_G I was talking to my Ranger yesterday, and he told me he got a chance to drive a Model S last time he was in Fremont, on the same course as the test rides during the factory event. He was very enthusiastic about it. He said the handling was simply amazing. He also said the production cars are going to be much quieter than the Betas we rode in (if that's even possible!). Sounds like it's going to be an awesome car, and apparently it even runs on electricity!�
Jan 26, 2012
evinfairfax yes, that's a nice way to say it. That's exactly what I'm hoping.
Not to say that energy efficiency and environmental issues are not important to me. And I realize the physics of the car are possible because of being a true EV. But what I really hope to be buying is a wonderful handling car with a near perfect drivetrain (no slushbox, and linear power at all times)�
Jan 26, 2012
Citizen-T Personally, I'm looking forward to being able to drive this car like I stole it every day to work and back, and not having to feel bad about it at all. It'll cost me an extra, like, 50 cents a week to actually enjoy the thing.
If I could do that in an ICE, that'd be fine too; but I can't.�
Jan 26, 2012
Lyon Amen to that!�
Jan 26, 2012
goyogi Yes! I had a slow ride home in my Volt today to eek out as much EV juiciness as possible before the stinky gas engine kicked in. I got 47.8 miles on the charge (not bad for cold weather and a 35mpc rated pack). I was thinking while I was babying the car how I would be bolting around if I already had my Tesla.�
Jan 26, 2012
bolosky The past couple of weeks my Roadster's been getting service (yes, it's a long time but they did major work, wait until I post the pictures). In the mean time I've been driving a 1995 Nissan Pathfinder.
I've had the Roadster for 2+ years now, but nothing really brings out how great it is to drive like not having it for a while. ICEs just suck compared to the way EVs drive. They're slow off the line, noisy, stinky, loud, unresponsive at most any speed, jerky (from shifting), and just generally a pain.
The S won't have quite the performance of the Roadster, but on the continuum from Roadser to 1995 Pathfinder, I'm betting that the S will be WAY closer to Roadster. It may even handle better due to the low CG.
This is a point that I try to make to lots of people, and most of them don't get it. EVs are so much better to drive than ICEs that it's not even close.
I predict that you'll love driving your S.�
Jan 26, 2012
Blastphemy I agree that the Model-S will be at the level of any Mercedes-Benz, BMW, etc. in the same price range when it comes to responsiveness, and it may very well be the quietest car on the road bar none beating the likes of Lexus and Rolls Royce in that respect. But if you're looking for other features like seat memory, cooled seats, passenger sun shades, NavTraffic, adaptive cruise control, blind spot warning, head's-up display, night vision, around-view parking video monitor, parking sonar, and other features that are nearly standard in newer cars from $60,000-$85,000 from many manufacturers, you're not going to get them with the Model-S.
So if a silent cabin and a thrilling drive are your top desires (aside from the EV aspect, which is huge IMHO), then this is your car. If you want more standard "luxury" features, then get an LS460 and save yourself $10-30k (but forget about the LS600hL which is well over $100k and is a complete waste of money compared to the Model-S...although you can pick one up today, unlike the Tesla!).�
Jan 27, 2012
brianman I think Blastphemy captured the difference between Premium and Luxury, well at least by one metric.
- Premium is first-class for primary functions.
- Luxury is "more than you need for primary functions".�
Jan 27, 2012
neroden You have a custom-built house? I envy you. I was in a hurry so I had to buy and modify. :smile:
Well, or 18 years, depending on how you look at it. :wink:
Well, everyone's interested for different reasons. For me, the Signature is going to be the first car I've ever driven which I'm not allergic to, which is kind of a big deal. I'm sure people can think of other reasons beyond "getting off of gas" (though getting off of gas is huge for me). In terms of performance, I'm looking forward to the really stable handling due to the low center of gravity; I don't care much, personally about your other two interests (though I respect them). I also really like the idea of a car with less of a maintenance hassle.
In fact, wide torque band and least-annoying transmission -> electric car. That's just a characteristic of the technology; you can't get that behavior with an ICE, or a steam engine. :tongue: So you want an electric car with a low center of gravity, and model S is the first such car. It will also probably be one of the best designed for several years; everyone else seems to be playing catch-up to Tesla.
I think you'll like this car.
Regarding "luxury features", I like some of them and don't really care much about others; it seems like I'm getting most of the ones I care about in the Signature (including seat memory), but as always "your mileage may vary". All the fancy parking cameras and sonar gizmos would be kind of nice, but I never had them before and I can live without them; the backup camera will already be better than anything I've driven.�
Jan 27, 2012
Sig698 I wasn't particularly enthusiastic about EVs until I started doing more research, and I'm getting my model S for the same reasons as you. I like that the car is clean and it is definitely a big plus, but I'm also looking forward to the torque, the silence, and what should be pretty interesting handling characteristics. And the tech! And the good looks! I should stop now before I ramble...�
Jan 27, 2012
PeterW Too late
�
Jan 27, 2012
HFh 0-60 in 4.4... and, good heavens, it's electric!
I'm planning on getting this car because I want a sedan (important for me) that is fun to drive. My original plan was to get an M5 this cycle. I'd been putting off getting rid of my 545i waiting for the M5 to get to the States. My back up plan was a 55oi. Both would be six-speeds of course because, you know, I'm a real man.
Then I test drove a Fisker and thought to myself that maybe the electrics had come a long way (I'd seen Teslas during my trips to San Fran last year, but thought nothing of them). I started looking into it, got caught up on where the technology is and so right now I'm sold.
I'll admit that it's a plus that the car is electric--I'm tired of filling up on premium and paying several thousand dollars a mile just to get from here to there--but some of that is because the idea of a fast electric car is tech-head cool. The big downside is the lack of the fun of shifting but I'm okay with that (this will be my first non-stick ever and my first non-6 in 12 years) given everything else about the car. I also kind of wish it had a heads up display (tech-head cool and even useful), but... 0-60 in 4.4.
So, what I'm saying is that I get a fast car that is luxury enough (I only care about that but so much) with enough legroom for my 6' 3" self and has all kinds of coolness about it? Yeah, let's do that. Now if the Performance wasn't an option, would I buy it? I'd probably wait another generation.�
Jan 27, 2012
AustinPowers My two cents
Right, my first post.
I have been fascinated by the Model S ever since I saw the first pictures of the prototype a couple of years ago. And the nearer the year 2013 drew, the more info Tesla released, the more excited I got. But when we finally got to see the page about the features & pricing on the Tesla website, I somehow lost quite a bit of the excitement because, EV tech aside, the S suddenly seemed not at all like "the best car in the world", as Tesla sometimes like to call it, and even the "premium" in the premium (electric) sedan sounds a bit questionable to me.
Reasons you ask? Well, like evinfairfax I too want a car that is not called "the most technologically advanced vehicle ever produced" just because it is an EV. I currently drive a 2004 BMW 330 Cd Diesel coupe, which I consider (for my needs) the best car I have ever driven. It's powerful, fast, roomier than one might think, and still very economical, giving me between 33 and 39 mpg depending on how much of its power I put to use. And as for techie features it has everything that was available in 2004. So when it comes to the Model S, I think it should at least offer the features that eight year old cars used to offer. But when I read the features page that doesn't seem to be the case. Or perhaps some features that the Model S offers are just not mentioned by Tesla:
- folding side mirrors? (very sensible on sich a wide car, and standard or optional on many cars of today)
- front and rear parking assistant (at least in the form of sound signals, standard or optional on most cars)
- active safety headrests (I think they are talking about making them compulsory in the EU)
- glove compartment and various other compartments for stowing away stuff (I didn't see any on pictures of the Model S interior)
- memory function on the adjustable seats for more than just one driver
and as for the "most technologically advanced" part:
- LED headlights (xenon as part of the Tech Package is not really something special, at least not in the premium sedan market where xenon is more or less standard)
- head up display
- adaptive cruise control
I'm not even talking about all the possible assistant gizmos.
And something plain and simple that really annoys me - no CD player. I know I can store all my music on an USB stick, but have you ever converted a hundred CDs or more to files?
Don't get me wrong. I think the Model S has the possibility to become a great car. I love the looks, the EV aspect and the prospect of driving one of the coolest cars on the planet. But the way it seems at the moment, I think Tesla will have a lot of problems selling the car to people (at least in Europe) - who are willing to spend the kind of cash between 50 and 100K Euro - and not offering many of the advanced tech features that are available (or even have been available for some years) on cars by Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Volkswagen, Porsche, Ford, Jaguar, Volvo, Nissan, even Mazda, Toyota, Hyundai etc.�
Jan 27, 2012
GSP This nicely sums up my situation as well. I do enjoy hyper-miling the Volt, but I also look forward to a larger battery some day.
GSP�
Jan 27, 2012
AnOutsider Your post stands as is, but thought I'd point out that the S is expected to have memory seats tied to your key fob. Also, it's pretty likely we'll have traffic since we have both google maps (which shows traffic on mobile devices) and satellite radio. It's also not a stretch to think the backup cameras will have proximity alerts as well.�
Jan 27, 2012
AnOutsider Again, I see no reason why this won't be in the car (they have not yet released standard features). The headrests may be part of the seats (though I don't know what active headrests are), and we've already seen the folding mirrors in action and know it will have memory seats.
I've had SD car slots in every new vehicle I've owned. These days I think most people have their music digitally (I do, even though I still buy CD's unless the MP3 album is on sale at Amazon), so it's a lot easier to load content onto an iPod, phone, USB stick or SD card than it is to carry around and juggle CDs IMO. Heck, apple is even phasing out optical drives on their computers. I think Tesla made a forward-thinking decision.�
Jan 27, 2012
Mycroft Several times. Once you get into a rhythm, it goes quickly. Rip to Apple lossless with iTunes and you'll only need to do it once.�
Jan 27, 2012
mnx Those are my top 3 reasons as well. I'd consider them EV aspects though, or at least #2 and #3. I'm also going to enjoy never having to stop for gas again.�
Jan 27, 2012
GSP Yes. The ease and convienice of refueling at home, and having a full battery every morning, are hard to appriciate until you have experienced it.
GSP�
Jan 27, 2012
ElSupreme I too am wondering about missing shifting. I have owned a standard transmission car (if I owned a car at the time) since I got my license at 16. I would never consider getting an automatic (Torque-Converter variety). I tried a DSG and really missed my clutch pedal. I think the car having 100% torque at rpm will get me over this worry. I won't need to spool up my engine and drop a clutch, I just point and go.�
Jan 27, 2012
AustinPowers Contrary to popular belief, Apple is a company that is not as popular as in the US everywhere else in the world. Phasing out optical drives is nice if you care for cloud computing and throwing away all your "old" software, films etc. on such outdates mediums as CDs, DVDs and BluRays. But here in the old world, we still like to use our Neanderthal devices <sarcasm off>
And as for iTunes, thanks but no thanks. Been there, done that, ruined my system and files several times. No way, ever again.
At least - if I decide to buy the Model S after all - I can save some money by not ordering the top sound system :wink:
Thanks by the way for the info about the folding mirrors, memory seats and parking sensors. That I didn't know yet.
About the safety headrests: these are special headrests that adjust themselves in milliseconds to an optimal position to avoid concussions and reduce neck-traumas in accidents. Volvo pioneered the technology and most premium car makers (and even some in the mid-range market) offer that feature as standard or option, at least in Europe.
Similar with the LED headlights. Especially Audi is promoting that technology, which seems ideal combined with an EV, as it uses far less electric energy than standard or even xenon headlamps while at the same time offering even better night vision. And that doesn't even take into account the fact that LEDs last almost forever (my BMW for example has full LED rear light and indicator arrays and in the eight years that I have had the car not one single LED unit has had any defect).�
Jan 27, 2012
ElSupreme Pro tip. Buy a second CD drive and rip one while you swap the other. You can do 25 an hour easily.�
Jan 27, 2012
mnx I thought about that a lot as well, and asked myself "Why do I greatly prefer manual transmissions over autos?". The answer was that the manual was much much nicer to drive, (no slushiness to the transmission) and when you put your foot down there is no annoying downshifting. I see having no transmission all as being superior to a manual trans. Having instant response without needing to downshift is going to be awesome.
�
Jan 27, 2012
AustinPowers Actually I have three drives in my PC (CD ROM, DVD RW an BD RW) so I could juggle with three CDs at the same time. But the point is I don't see any sense in that. Should I throw away all my CDs afterwards? No thanks. All our cars had and have CD drives, in our house we have players different guises in almost every room. No need for music as files whatsoever. And to waste many hours of the little free time that I have in my life just to be able to listen to music in a car doesn't really seem very sensible to me.
Perhaps I'm too old school after all...�
Jan 27, 2012
Doug_G Reportedly they do fold. We don't know if they are motorized.
I have this on my current ICE car, and consider it worthless bordering on annoying. The sensors are very obvious on the bumper. It doesn't tell me anything I can't already see in the rear view camera.
If they do make them compulsory, then you'll obviously get them as part of the homologation...
It does have a glove compartment.
Not on the base model, but the higher models have them.�
Jan 27, 2012
Doug_G I've driven all three types (manual, automatic, none). For the conventional cars, I prefer manual for performance driving, automatic when stuck in traffic. But the Roadster beats both of those in all situations. You have powerful regen instead of relatively wimpy downshifting. You have seamless power at any speed without downshifting. Acceleration is smooth and brisk.�
Jan 27, 2012
HFh When I drove the Fisker, I couldn't figure out what to do with my right hand. There was nothing to even rest it on. 100% torque at 0, though....
I was planning on selling the 545 but maybe I'll keep it for a while and just shift every once in a while.�
Jan 27, 2012
AustinPowers Thanks for the info, I stand corrected. But about the parking sensors: mine have turned out to be very useful (I have no rear view camera though) and not at all annoying. But I can see that this differs greatly from model to model.
Your other post about your experiences with the roadster, combined with the footage I have seen of the Freemont factory event are what keep me keen in the Model S after all. I have never experienced driving in such an EV and am looking forward to a possible test drive in future, when the Model S enters the market in Germany. Perhaps my other "headaches" will be lifted then as well...�
Jan 27, 2012
PattyChuck For me, the decision was more impulsive. Yeah, an impulse buy that is 15 months out is probably not something you hear about all the time, but hear me out.
I currently drive a base-model Infiniti G35. It's the nicest car I've ever owned. When the Roadster came out in 2008, I would read anything and everything I could get my hands on about that car. I was instantly enamored with it, but at over $100K, I knew I would never ever own one, and I stopped paying attention to the company all together. Then Nissan announced the Leaf in 2009. Knowing that it probably wouldn't come to rural Indiana any time soon, I sort of forgot about it. I leased the Infiniti in 2010. My lease is up in March 2013. In an attempt to bond with my father-in-law, I was planning on taking him to the Chicago Auto Show in February to look at all the autoporn, so earlier this month, I was getting a "must-see list" put together. I stumbled upon the Leaf once again, and discovered that they were now selling them in Indiana, and that a dealership 30 miles from my house would be carrying them. I immediately plunked down the $99 deposit knowing that it would be at least the middle of this year before I would be able to take delivery, and I might be able to negotiate an extension on my reservation to get me to 2013 when I would be done with the Infiniti.
While I was ogling over all the forums on the Leaf, I came across a post where someone mentioned the Tesla Model S. At that time, I had no idea Tesla was building a sedan!! The price of the car is almost double what I spent on my Infiniti, but the stars have been aligning for some time now, and I'm finally in a position where affording, at least for me, the 40 kWh S (my round-trip commute to and from work is a jaw-dropping 6 whole miles... I'd actually ride a bike if the roads weren't horrendously dangerous here, not to mention riding a bike in snow isn't all that fun) is something I can do. So, I plunked down the $5,000 "on an impulse" to get in line. True, my wife was less than thrilled about doing that without discussing it with her first (something about a landscaping and redecorating budget that I'm still confused about), but that's why they call it an impulse buy, right?
Ultimately, for me, this car is all about the technology, and nothing about the luxury. Give me a folding chair and a handle-bar steering wheel, just so long as it's sitting on one of the most advanced battery/motor combos the world has ever seen. I've lived long enough without adaptive cruise control and power-folding mirrors that I know I'll not even give it a seconds worth of thought. Driving by the gas station on my way to work and not instinctively glancing at my fuel gauge? Yeah, I'll think about that every day.�
Jan 27, 2012
AnOutsider Pretty sure there's a video here on the forums of Tesla employees moving a white Model S into a store and we see the mirrors fold. IIRC it was motorized, but I'll have to find it.�
Jan 27, 2012
Mycroft They manually folded the mirrors in that video. So we won't know the production car's capabilities until Tesla releases the standard features list.�
Jan 27, 2012
ckessel As a car, I'm looking at it just because it seems like a great car. It's hard to ignore the EV-ness of it though as many of the benefits are a result of the EV:
- High mechanical reliability - this is something of a presumption based on general electric motor reliability. It's possible this won't be true, but it seems unlikely and it'd be warranty covered
- Quick - I like sports cars (Dodge Stealth->RX8->Model S). This is a sedan, but it'll be a sporty one. This isn't EV specific, but EV's have great torque.
- Agile - Again not EV specific, but the EV nature makes the CoG low and the car more agile
- Quiet - EV really helps here
- Convenience - This goes with charging at home. Now, on a road trip, this is a negative due to refueling time (even with quick charge), but for 95% of my driving, this is a big plus. No gas stations, no oil changes, etc.
�
Jan 27, 2012
ChadS Agreed. I always drove stick when I had gas cars, and I thought I'd miss it in the Roadster. But thinking about it, the reason I liked the manual transmission was the largely for better control over the limited power band of the engine. You've got all that control under your right foot in an electric car, with much better responsiveness (and easier driving in heavy traffic) to boot. I don't miss shifting at all.
(Similar story for the "growl of the engine". I thought I'd miss it, but it's just an association in your head between sound and power. Your brain learns new rules when you switch cars).
I bought my first EV fully prepared to make sacrifices in order to get off gas. But now that I've found that there are not only no sacrifices*, but some big advantages, I'm not going back to gas, even if somebody discovers an unlimited 50-cent-per-gallon domestic source that magically creates no emissions.
*Yes, I am aware that it takes longer to refuel. But on the very rare trips where that matters, we take our Prius, so I don't have to sacrifice anything (well, OK, we do sacrifice power, quietness and smoothness when we take the Prius). If the Model S can use CHAdeMO, or if the Supercharger network gets built out enough, it will be more hassle to license and maintain the Prius than to very occasionally wait a little extra time for the DCQC.�
Jan 27, 2012
AnOutsider Well-said all around.�
Jan 27, 2012
WhiteKnight Cross posting from here: What makes Model S a luxury car?
�
Jan 27, 2012
medved What is a CD player? Hm.... Wait a sec. I guess it's a device people used, back in old days, to play music on. It's just a guess, but I'll check with my grandpa to make sure. :wink:
Just kidding. I hear ya. I don't really use a CD player to listen to music. But I do believe the CD player should be in Model S. And that is because Elon said that inside the car it will be like a sound studio. But the quality of ripped music compare to ORIGINAL CD is really terrible. What's the use of good quality speakers and good acoustics when the file you listen to is in a bad quality? People normally don't realize this or don't care about, but a true original audio quality is LPCM 44100 Hz 16 bits stereo for a bitrate of 1411 kbps. These days many people are happy with just 190 kbps. But i must say it is a huge, huge difference to listen to 190 kbps and to listen to 1411 kbps. With good quality speakers you can clearly tell the difference. In Model S you should have the option to enjoy a good quality audio.�
Jan 27, 2012
Mycroft And there are those that claim the quality of CD compared to vinyl LP is "really terrible". Nothing is forcing you to rip the audio from CD at low bitrates. Rip to Apple lossless and there will be absolutely no loss in quality.
A CD player would be expensive, an increase in complexity and a waste of space. With lossless rips, iPhones, and Sonos at home, I'm a very happy camper with all my music available at the touch of a finger.�
Jan 27, 2012
AnOutsider Correct. I definitely find often that people who complain about digital media quality never bother to rip at or download high quality versions.�
Jan 27, 2012
brianman With the S, you can surf YouTube with that spare hand.
Kidding! Don't kill me, safety people.�
Jan 27, 2012
ElSupreme I agree with your quality argument. I don�t purchase digital download music. I purchase CDs for that reason. I also rip all my music to lossless format. I have done a few different versions but right now I use WMA Lossless for ease of use. When I put these files on my ZuneHD I automatically encode them to 256kbps WMA single bit rate, as I sometimes. I can�t tell a difference in going higher quality and really think 192kbps is fine for earbuds. When I send to my phone I automatically encode to 192kbps MP3. Again only use earbuds really.
Now on my Zune30 which plays in my car I have lossless files, and some WMA voice (20kbps I think) for spoken tracks. It is easy to hear the difference between MP3 even at 192kbps and CD/Lossless in my car. In a silent car it would be even easier. I will find out what lossless formats the Model S can deal with and then convert my library over. Hopefully FLAC or WMA lossless as I already have those. In actuality I mostly use CDs when not listening to NPR. The Model S will require a change.�
Jan 27, 2012
brianman Tesla Model S through the door at Santana Row San Jose CA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD6NP0uTZcs
13 seconds in
Is it a bad sign that I immediately knew California when this was brought up?
YouTube search hit #2 for: white tesla "model s" california store�
Jan 27, 2012
brianman While it's one of the "trivial things that can wait," I kind of wish we knew this kind of stuff. It would allow us to get some "Model S prep" work done while waiting for it.�
Jan 27, 2012
strider I agree. My last car before the Roadster was a C6 Corvette w/ a 6-speed. I was really concerned that I would miss shifting but I don't miss it at all. I am worried my son won't learn how to drive a manual since we don't own one any more (I also have fond memories w/ hanging out w/ my Dad under a broken car - will have to find new ways to bond w/ my son). Hopefully I can borrow from a friend or rent one when he's old enough.
As to what you should do w/ your right hand, per my Skip Barber instructors, it should be on the steering wheel at all times unless in the act of shifting. You should never "cruise" w/ a hand on the shifter as if you need to steer quickly you'll have the delay of moving your hand back to the wheel. So Model S will help you become a better driver :wink:�
Jan 27, 2012
ElSupreme I have been telling my fiancee that my hand can now constantly hold hers. I get�
Jan 27, 2012
Doug_G I'm terribly upset the Model S doesn't have a built-in turntable.�
Jan 27, 2012
brianman 
Doug, Perhaps there's an opportunity for an aftermarket on this one.
�
Jan 27, 2012
AustinPowers I didn't complain about the quality of digital media. I've studied computer sciences, I know how to rip CDs to lossless files. That isn't my point. The point is that I own hundreds of CDs that I can play at home as well as in any car that I have ever driven - without having to spend any time to convert all my media. I don't see why a great car like Model S couldn't cope with a built in CD player, a standard feature on cars from microcompacts up to RR, Maybach and the like. Even in a time of iPhones, cloud computing etc. a little downward compatibility never hurts. And about a CD player being expensive? You must be kidding, a good CD drive that plugs into a sound system costs less than 30 Euro (or 40 USD) - at least in this deck of the woods. Don't think that kind of money would matter on a 70 to 90K $/EUR car.�
Jan 27, 2012
medved I didn't know there are also lossless formats available. mea culpa. In that case, perfect. Let's just hope the Model S can deal with them.�
Jan 27, 2012
medved I am buying this car because, simply put, there is no better car in that price range or category. Seriously, show me a better car than Model S. Let's prove me wrong. In my view the S has no competition. Well, at least until the X comes out. :wink:�
Jan 27, 2012
WhiteKnight BMW 550i
It is less expensive than the 85 kWh Model S and it goes faster 0-60 than the (non-performance) Model S.
I like the Model S better but the BMW 550i is a very strong competitor.�
Jan 27, 2012
HFh I kept reaching over to shift, or to place my hand on the stick in anticipation of shifting and there was no place to rest my hand. Really distracting. Oh, we'll, I'll get used to it!�
Jan 27, 2012
medved With all due respect, in my view BMW 550i compare to Model S is a crap not worth my money at all. Here is why:
First of all i compare to Model S performance because that's what i am getting and that's what i think Model S really is.
1. Expensive maintenance. BMW 550i has expensive maintenance, too many parts that can break. Expensive timing belt replacement, oil change and so on. I guess u get the point. The engine is so complex that it is almost a miracle it works.
2. Expensive fuel cost. The fuel for BMW 550i is extremely expensive compare to Model S. Read this for more info.
3. Poor handling. With the Model S having such a low center of gravity the handling and driving experience is definitely much better than with BMW 550i. And also much safer.
4. Safety. The Model S will be for sure much safer than BMW 550i. There is no engine in the front so the crumple zone is much longer thus it's safer. Plus they say the S will have 5 star rating in all categories.
5. Too slow. Model S performance is faster and more fun to drive.
6. Too small. Model S has for sure more space.
7. Too noisy. BMW 550i is too noisy compare to Model S.
And this is just the tip of the iceberg. So i don't think BMW 550i is better than Model S nor a very strong competitor.�
Jan 27, 2012
WhiteKnight You can make the statement "the S has no competition" and you might believe that but the vast majority of people would not be as dismissive of BMW. Certainly the automotive world does not dismiss BMW automobiles as "crap." And I can tell you that Tesla does not think BMW is "crap" because they have chosen the 5-series to be the measuring stick against which they want to compete.�
Jan 27, 2012
AnOutsider Also, I don't think the "reasons" mentioned above are realistic, more fanboyish�
Jan 27, 2012
dsm363 I agree. I think the Model S will be amazing car and a better car than the BMW 5 series but I don't think you can dismiss BMW as crap. No one has driven a production Model S yet and Tesla has to still prove themselves which I think they will.�
Jan 27, 2012
medved I was comparing BMW 550i to Model S. Not BMW company to Tesla company. But i am not a native speaker so i guess for some "in my view BMW 550i compare to Model S" might not be clear enough. I don't dismiss BMW as a company between ICE cars. Between ICE cars, BMW is my favorite brand. But IMHO i just don't think BMW 550i is better car than Model S. Not even close. And your only argument such as "the vast majority of people would not be as dismissive" somehow can't convince me that BMW 550i is better than Model S.�
Jan 27, 2012
evinfairfax One thing Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, and especially Audi have in this price class (IMO) are well designed, high quality interiors.
When I say I'm trading off luxury by getting a Model S, I'm not talking about electronic features and gadgets at all. I can stay in my lane just fine, thank you very much. And the IR on my current daily driver Mercedes has been useful exactly zero times. I'm talking about how the interior has looked in pictures and videos as compared to other vehicles in the same price range that I've owned before. Relative to other cars I've owned, this seems to be a very clear step down in interior design and quality.
But, like I said, the model S sounds like it will more than make up for that in driving dynamics. So that's OK. I've owned enough BMW's, Mercedes, Porsches, and Audis now to know that each have their plusses and minuses. None is "better" overall than the others.
I see the step down in interior as no more important in my decision as the step up in the other areas. And I do hope that the final execution of the interior will be a little better. But I'm not expecting Audi levels here.
And again, that's OK. None of the choices are perfect.�
Jan 28, 2012
tdelta1000 If the Models S were an ICE vehicle, I think automotive industry would have been all over it like the paint on a car because it hits at the heart of the Luxo segment like an MMA fighter. I would still want one just as bad.�
Jan 28, 2012
Blastphemy We're trending into fantasy land
OK, the hyperbole is a bit over the top, here. Saying that the Model-S is "crap not worth my money at all" and "for sure" better in each of those categories than the BMW 550i is fantasy. You lose all credibility in my eyes with ridiculous statements like that. If you want to make a realistic comparison of competing models, that's fine - there's a lot good in both vehicles; but to outright dismiss one of the market leaders is just laughable.
A new 550i would be under warranty, so there isn't any "expensive" maintenance (not like the mandatory $600 annual maintenance required by Tesla to keep its warranty unvoided). If you think the 550i engine is so complex that "it is almost a miracle it works," then you obviously haven't read about the complexity of the Model-S. And considering how many millions of internal combustion engines there are on the road, it's no stretch of the imagination that BMW's engine works without divine intervention.
The fuel may be expensive for the 550i, but over the life of the car is anyone going to spend $20,000 on fuel? Because the fully-loaded Performance Model-S is $20,000 more than the 550i, and you still pay fuel costs on your electric bill (or in the amortized cost of the solar panels you bought if you're really green!)
Saying a BMW 550i doesn't handle well just demonstrates you've never driven one. There's a reason the BMW 550i is a hot car, and its handling is one of those defining factors of the model. I'm sure the Model-S will handle well too, but good luck definitively beating a 550i on the road.
The 550i is "too slow"? OK, again - you've never driven a 550i.
The 550i is "too small"? Have you compared the specs of both cars? Just putting a frunk on the Model-S does not make it a "bigger" car.
The 550i is "too nosiy"? Compared to what? Have you driven the Model-S? Do you hear absolutely nothing? Well, then, good to know it's nice and quiet just like a Lexus LS460. The 550i is only slightly less silent, and it ain't the road or ambient noise you're hearing. You make it sound like one would never hear police sirens or car horns sitting in the Model-S. Dream on.
I currently drive an Infiniti M56, so I'm not a BMW fanboy, but I'm also not oblivious to the strengths of the BMW 550i, Lexus LS460, Hyundai Equus, Mercedes-Benz E550, Audi A8, and other high-end cars. And considering that the Model-S is being marketed as a "premium" car and not a "luxury" car means you're going to be paying a LOT more for that electric engine than you think. If you compare a 2012 M56 or 2012 Hyundai Equus Ultimate to the Model-S Performance, are you really getting $40,000 more value? That all depends on your subjective opinion and what features you value the most. But there's a strong argument that the Model-S is overpriced for what you get, unless what you want is a fully-electric performance sedan with minimal bells and whistles (like adaptive cruise control and cooled front seats). If that's what you want, then the Model-S is the only way to go - if you have the money.�
Jan 28, 2012
Trnsl8r Maybe I shouldn't bother responding to this thread, but to me it's all about the EV. I like Elon's ambition about "best car", but if the Model S had been an ICE, I don't know if I would have given it a second look. I don't find the luxury aspect all that important, and the silly door handles and touch screen do nothing for me right now (but who knows, I may sing a different tune once I have it).
I like it because it's the smartest EV around (especially engineering-wise), has tons of space and performs like no other EV.�
Jan 28, 2012
richkae Blastphemy, I agree with you that most of what Medved said is fanboyism, if not outright wrong. Sorry Medved. But you said:
The BMW 550i is rated at 17mpg combined bu the EPA Fuel Economy of the 2012 BMW 550i
Someone who drives 12000 miles per year will spend $20,000 more on gas for a BMW 550i than a Model S owner spends on electricity in about 6 years assuming the trend of gasoline prices for the last 10 years continues. If you incorrectly assume that gas prices will remain at the current prices for the next 8.5 years then it will take 8.5 years.�
Jan 28, 2012
ckessel I half-joked in another thread that one of the problems EVs have is people aren't willing to do the math. Yes, $20k on fuel is quite likely.
(.0442 is Oregon's nighttime rate)Code:kWh $0.0442 miles EV Cost Gas Cost @4 Gas Cost @5 Gas Cost @6 Gas Cost @7 Gas Cost @8 0 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00 10000 $125.27 $1,600.00 $2,000.00 $2,400.00 $2,800.00 $3,200.00 20000 $250.54 $3,200.00 $4,000.00 $4,800.00 $5,600.00 $6,400.00 30000 $375.81 $4,800.00 $6,000.00 $7,200.00 $8,400.00 $9,600.00 40000 $501.08 $6,400.00 $8,000.00 $9,600.00 $11,200.00 $12,800.00 50000 $626.35 $8,000.00 $10,000.00 $12,000.00 $14,000.00 $16,000.00 60000 $751.61 $9,600.00 $12,000.00 $14,400.00 $16,800.00 $19,200.00 70000 $876.88 $11,200.00 $14,000.00 $16,800.00 $19,600.00 $22,400.00 80000 $1,002.15 $12,800.00 $16,000.00 $19,200.00 $22,400.00 $25,600.00 90000 $1,127.42 $14,400.00 $18,000.00 $21,600.00 $25,200.00 $28,800.00 100000 $1,252.69 $16,000.00 $20,000.00 $24,000.00 $28,000.00 $32,000.00 110000 $1,377.96 $17,600.00 $22,000.00 $26,400.00 $30,800.00 $35,200.00 120000 $1,503.23 $19,200.00 $24,000.00 $28,800.00 $33,600.00 $38,400.00 130000 $1,628.50 $20,800.00 $26,000.00 $31,200.00 $36,400.00 $41,600.00 140000 $1,753.77 $22,400.00 $28,000.00 $33,600.00 $39,200.00 $44,800.00 150000 $1,879.04 $24,000.00 $30,000.00 $36,000.00 $42,000.00 $48,000.00
Assumptions: 25 mpg average for gas, and 283 wH/mile for electric (Model S 85kWH / 300 miles),�
Jan 28, 2012
GSP In defense of Medved's stance, many of us have lost all, or almost all, interest in ICE cars. Yes, that makes us fanboys, but the lack of interest is real and will be reflected in our future purchases. Yes the 550i and the like are very good cars, and still desireable to the general public, but they no longer are to us.
As more people experience EVs, the general public is likely to follow us.
GSP�
Jan 28, 2012
qwk Comparing a 550i to a performance model s is just as stupid as calling Bmw cars junk FYI. A performance Model s is comparable to an M5.
Even an M3 will slaughter a 550 in acceleration and at a track. Two totally different cars built for different purposes.
�
Jan 28, 2012
richkae 1. ICEs are much more mechanically complex than electric drivetrains. Do not forget the transmission, I have known of more cars that need transmission rebuild/replacement than ICE. Both are very expensive. The electric drivetrain is superior the way an integrated circuit is superior to vacuum tubes, or a solid state device is superior to a rotary phone dial. I believe over the long term, the EV will have higher value because of lower maintenance costs - but the short term costs are determined by Tesla and BMWs policies. However this may all be a tie due to battery replacement.
2. As I stated in an above post, I believe you make your money back in about 6 years. After that the savings get even more dramatic.
3. I would not call a BMW poor handling. BMW has very talented engineers and despite Tesla's center of gravity advantage it is possible that the difference may be difficult to distinguish. But that might come at the cost of significant complexity on the part of the BMW, and that makes Tesla a winner in my book, because I like simplicity. A fair test of handling would be on a racetrack, but it would have to have short straights so the cars don't exceed 100 mph, otherwise the lower top speed of the Tesla would prevent an accurate comparison. If Tesla won, it have an asterisk, but that would be fine with me. I'm waiting to drive and see tests.
4. 5 stars is 5 stars.
5. The Model S is not faster. It is quicker ( accelerates better ) at most speeds. However the BMW has a higher top speed, and most likely goes from 100 to 130 mph faster than the Tesla.
This may matter on the autobahn, and to delusional people who buy cars with top speeds they never will use. However I bet that at useful speeds ( like 50 to 70 ) the Tesla has an advantage.
6. Saying "too small" is not meaningful. If both cars have enough space for you, then they are both big enough. However I am looking forward to the voluminous cargo capacity of the Tesla.
7. Too noisy. We should wait and see. The Model S may be quieter, but it may be imperceptible. The BMW may acheive this with a bunch of weight in sound deadening. If that is the case, then Tesla wins in my mind, because I like the elegance of not having to cover up what is not there. Other consumers may not care.�
Jan 28, 2012
HFh So it is definitely the case that if the Tesla weren't an EV, I probably wouldn't pay it any attention.�
Jan 28, 2012
richkae Lets look at it from a different point of view.
Pretend the Model S was a regular ICE car, with all of its EV specs ( its range limitation is actually similiar to a CNG car without the penalties of CNG: lousy acceleration, very bad cargo space )
- incredible throttle response at any speed, like a perfect CVT, the smoothest engine in any car no shifting, no noise
- incredible MPG as defined by cost/mile. About 1/10th that of a comparable performance car.
- quietest in its class, especially under power
- best cargo volume in its class
- excellent handling, among best in its class
- fantastic acceleration, among the best in its class
- 5 star safety
- you leave home every day with a full tank
- long term durability of drivetrain far exceeds average
drawbacks:
- fuel tank is smaller than average
- refueling opportunities limited, and fuel flow rate is slow
- you have to pay up front to save money over time on operating cost�
Jan 28, 2012
Robert.Boston FWIW, we have a BMW 535 x-drive Sportswagon. We got the wagon in large part because the 5 sedan doesn't have nearly enough storage space; only 14.0 cu.ft. The Model S more than doubles that in the rear alone. The 8 cu.ft. in the frunk is pure gravy, and the ability to vastly increase that space by lowering the rear seats (not an option on a 5 sedan) further adds a plus.
So let's be clear: the BMW 5 is about the best an ICE can be. That's hardly surprising--it's the result of nearly a century of evolutionary improvements. EVs are a revolutionary change, however, not only changing the drivetrain but allowing a complete rethink of the traditional layout of vehicles. I'm sure that in 30 years, we'll look back and think how quaint the Model S is for mimicking the now-outdated chassis of ICE vehicles.�
Jan 28, 2012
Tommy Really good downloadable music exists that has both higher bits (24) and higher sample rate (192Hz) than what CD offers. Unfortunately, the ubiquitousness of Apple coupled with their low bit/sample rate downloads has lead many to believe that music downloaded must be of inferior quality. As an alternative to Apple you might want to check this site: HDtracks high resolution audiophile music downloads
I am an audio buff and sorry if slightly OT, however if the sound system is as good as Tesla claims, every extra bit helps.�
Jan 28, 2012
PeterW Nice post.
I would like everyone to imagine it is 2020 (8yrs from now). Now write down those drawbacks. Can you? Do you think they will still exist? I do not think 1 & 3 will
Do you think there are other drawbacks?�
Jan 28, 2012
strider BMW lost all respect from me a few months ago when I was reading a review of the latest M5 in Car and Driver:
Are you freaking kidding me!?!?! You're going to add engine noise to the cabin THROUGH THE STEREO!?!?!? That is hands down the dumbest thing I've ever heard of in my life. I can only imagine the following on a Bavarian whiteboard:
Step 1) Spend a ton of money of a high-performance engine.
Step 2) Spend a ton of money to quiet the engine and isolate the cabin from the noise.
Step 3) Spend a ton of money to add the noise BACK in through the stereo.
Step 4) Profit!
BMW is now run by idiots and any time anyone mentions them in a positive way I can't help but laugh.�
Jan 28, 2012
shark2k Really though, that warranty is only for so long and in the defense of the Model S, we do not actually know how much the annual maintenance is going to cost. There is annual maintenance for ICE cars that is not going to be needed at all for the Model S, so you have to take that into account. I've never owned a BMW, but I know from their commercials they used to mention about how certain things are included for a certain time period, but that might not be the case anymore.
Also, what exactly is so complex about the Model S? The motor is simple as is the drive train. Really the only complex thing I can think of is the BMS, but pretty sure the majority of that is software driven. An ICE in comparison has way more parts than the the Model S motor.
Already disproven, twice in this thread.
-Shark2k�
Jan 28, 2012
Doug_G I was talking to my Ranger a few days ago, and he said that he expects the maintenance required for the Model S to be significantly less than the Roadster. They can access a lot more diagnostic information remotely. The car is designed with maintenance in mind (certainly that's not the case for some things in the Roadster).
I don't know if this will translate to lower annual maintenance fees, but they certainly won't have to do that time-consuming extraction and cleaning out of the PEM - it's liquid cooled and there won't be all that crap getting in there. That's what they spend the most time on.�
Jan 28, 2012
AnOutsider Really good to know. Will we have to put the car in some sort of diagnostic mode or can they just dial up our car anytime?�
Jan 28, 2012
dsm363 If it is like the Roadster, you can opt in to leave access on or turn it on for for a short time to allow them access (6 hours I think but would have to check)�
Jan 28, 2012
Blastphemy Apples to oranges
The above proves my point; I'm not sure why no one sees it. Even at $6 gas one doesn't spend $20,000 until 90,000 miles. For most people, that's about six years. But for a Model-S owner, that $20,000 is gone the moment you take delivery.
However, gas where I live is (and has been) less than $3.70 for quite some time, and the likelihood that we'll see $6 gas over the next six years is very low (despite what EV proponents want everyone to believe) because it wouldn't be politically prudent for any administration to allow that to happen. So using the $4/gallon example, one wouldn't hit $20k until about 8-9 years of driving. And if you're at all like me, you'll have a new car long before that. I know many people who can afford $80-110k cars, but don't know any who keep them for more than five years, if even that long. The longest I ever kept a car was eight years, and that was out of necessity since I was young.
That doesn't change the fact that forward-thinking environmentally-responsible people who can afford to buy the best electric car available have a wonderful product available to them in the Tesla Model-S. But don't kid yourself - this car is no bargain, and shouldn't be bought by anyone who thinks they'll save money shelling out nearly $100,000 for a car that doesn't have some of the features found in my dad's ~$35k Buick or my neighbor's ~$45k Nissan. If you've got the means and the conscience, the Model-S is the car for you. I know I'm looking forward to getting on the list for the Model-S 85kWh Performance, but I'm also very aware of which luxury features I'm giving up to get it...some of which I'm not happy about.�
Jan 28, 2012
AnOutsider I think, especially in this price range, most of the buyers are not REALLY feeling the crunch at the pump, so you're right, gas savings is not the best reason to buy the car. Personally, that's not even on my list, there's just so much else to like about this car -- independence (both personal and national) is one of them.
We'll never get the public to adopt EVs by throwing math formulas at them anyway -- how often do people sit down and make rational decisions? I think once the convenience, performance, (assumed) durability and for some, independence comes to the surface more people will consider EVs; especially if they're as cool as Tesla has made theirs.�
Jan 28, 2012
ckessel In the last 5 years gas prices have gone up over 50%. There's no reason to believe the next five years won't be the same. The Model S may or may not be cheaper due to being electricity powered, but it's pretty clearly competitive in complete cost of ownership.
I know several folks that could, technically (all software engineers), afford the Model S. All of them keep their cars longer than 5 years. Swapping out cars regularly is fiscally imprudent. If your argument is that people who don't care about auto costs won't benefit from long term ownership savings, well, you win that one, but then they don't care so I'm not sure how it matters.�
Jan 28, 2012
richkae What magic wand do you think the "administration" is going to wave to lower gas prices? Gas prices are determined by supply and demand. They can exhaust the strategic reserve and it will only last a few months, thats the only magic bullet they have.
I am sure that in 2002 when gas was as low as $1.10 a gallon, no one believed that it would crack $4 a gallon in 2008. It will swing wildly, but if you predict a conservative trend from the last 10 years - it hits $6 per gallon in 2018 - 6 years from now.
EV proponents don't need *everyone* to believe it, there will only be enough EVs over the next few years for 1 or 2% of the car buying public. Everyone who thinks gasoline is going to remain plentiful and cheap can continue to buy ICEs.�
Jan 29, 2012
ElSupreme Well not really. I can't pay cash for my car. So it will be spread out over 5-6 years.
I have over 100k miles on my car in less than 5 yeras. And for 2 of those years I lived <2 miles from work and rode my bike most of the time, sadly it was terribly unsafe to WALK to work. Some people realy drive their cars a lot. And 25mph is a pretty good fuel economy when you are looking at a big car like the Model S is. I get around 26 combined in a VW GTI, mostly because of the way I drive it. So I will have spent 20k in about 6.5 years on just gas alone.
I also happen to thing the resale value on these things will be pretty high. A big concern about used cars is their usable lifetime. ICE cars start having problems at 125k miles a lot. I doubt your AC induction motor and single speed gearbox will have problems until 500k+.�
Jan 29, 2012
Robert.Boston There are various gasoline price points out there, though, where supply increases. If you slam around the molecules hard enough, you can convert natural gas to a liquid hydrocarbon that makes a perfectly reasonable (albeit expensive) gasoline substitute. Given that natural gas is currently seen to be cheap and plentiful, that's one check on the upward spiral of gasoline.
We've talked about this before, though -- if you try to rationalize the Model S price solely on "this is cheaper than the alternative," you get ambiguous answers depending on a laundry list of factors, including:
I can almost convince myself that the Model S has a lower lifetime cost of ownership than an A7, and I'm sure it's cheaper than a Jaguar XF Supercharged or the AM Rapide, but I'm not entirely sure I can convince myself that those are the cars I really would buy if the Model S weren't available. Don't tell my wife that!
- What car is your "alternative"
- Your view of the future path of gasoline prices
- Your view of the future path of electricity prices
- Your mileage
- Interest rates (and/or time value of money)
- Applicable federal and local tax benefits for EV and EVSE purchases
- The unknown depreciation rate of the Model S
- The unknown replacement cost of a Model S battery
- The unknown warranty on the Model S
- The expected annual cost of maintenance of the Model S and your preferred alternative
In the end, you have to reach a conclusion that the Model S is worth its price, that it combines features, driving enjoyment, and expected costs that make you willing to write a check. In my case, as a consulting economist to the electric industry, the choice is driven as much by professional considerations as entirely rational, personal ones. I first wanted the car, however, when I saw the alpha photos -- before I knew it was an EV. I loved the styling. I liked the fact that it's the product of an American company (One of my college friends lives in Detroit, and he hassles me at reunions about driving foreign cars). The fact that I could get that styling in an EV, at a price I could afford, clinched the deal.�
Jan 29, 2012
bonnie Not everything has to be rationalized. Sometimes it's okay to just want it.
�
Jan 29, 2012
Mycroft Blastphemy's point is that while EV enthusiasts can get by with "just wanting it", Tesla will need to sell to more than just EV enthusiasts to survive. He evidently thinks that an equation will have to come into play to convince non-enthusiasts to pony up the cashola for such an expensive ride and at the current prices, that equation doesn't yet exist.
As stated so well by others, I don't think that equation is necessary at this point. I think that plenty of non-EV-enthusiasts will love the car for the many benefits that the car *does* provide that other cars can't, regardless of price. I think the proof will be in the pudding when non-enthusiasts get to drive the car and sign up in droves.�
Jan 29, 2012
Todd Burch Now you'll only get hassled about buying a car not made in Detroit! :smile:�
Jan 29, 2012
richkae While kind of getting back to making points about the positive qualities of the car...
The Model S gives me the opportunity to spend my money on technology instead of on gasoline. Even if I thought it was more expensive in the long run, I would still be ecstatic for this, because I don't like the effects of my money buying gasoline.�
Jan 29, 2012
bonnie Gotcha. I should have started from the beginning.
How do you factor in the sheer fun of driving electric? If we made all our decisions on equations, what was wise, and measured everything in life ... how boring it would all be.�
Jan 29, 2012
dsm363 Also, how much is it worth to people living in cold climates to be able to use their mobile phone to heat up their car (while it's in the garage with the door close-something you obviously can't do with an ICE)? How about telling your car to cool down while it's in the parking lot during the summer? There are other benefits that are hard to put a dollar amount on.�
Jan 29, 2012
medved - Model S Perfomence...............$84,900
- Tesla Multi-coat..................... $1,500
- Tech Package.........................$3,750
- Telling your car to cool down while it's in the parking lot during the summer................Priceless
- To use your mobile phone to heat up the car (while it's in the garage with the door close-something you obviously can't do with an ICE) during a cold Canadian winter...............Priceless
- Never having to stop for gas.................Priceless
There are some things money can't buy. And the S has them more, not just 3.
...and no, I don't work for MasterCard.�
Jan 29, 2012
NEWDL No Panoramic Roof?�
Jan 29, 2012
medved Haven't decided yet. Will see. Over here there are not as many hot months as in California. So i wouldn't be able to use it often.�
Jan 29, 2012
PeterW I'm sorry, where is "Over here"?�
Jan 29, 2012
AnOutsider Even with it closed, it should make the cabin feel more open and spacious�
Jan 29, 2012
WhiteKnight When I crunched the numbers I thought that the 40 kWh was competitive with the 528i (similarly optioned) and the 60 kWh was competitive with the 550i (although 1s slower 0-60). But you're right the 85 kWh is more expensive than the 5-series by a significant margin.
I think one of the key things to remember is that every option available on 85 kWh is also available on 40 kWh (with the notable exception of supercharging). So the 40 kWh is very competitive with the BMW 5-series from a price standpoint. (2011 BMW 528i 0-60 in 6.6s). So if somebody can accept the fact that this is my intra-city car then they can get a great deal. If they suffer from range anxiety or believe they just have to have that extra range for the 4-13 weekends per year they're road tripping then they will pay through the nose for the privilege.�
Jan 29, 2012
ElSupreme This is exactly why I am thinking 40kWh is the way to start, keep my GTI. Then in 3-4 years hopefully I can get a 100kWh for my wife, and get rid of all the ICE cars!�
Jan 29, 2012
neroden I rip lossless .wav using cdparanoia. Yes, it's about 650 MB per CD, but I wouldn't want to do it twice, and 160 GB hard drive will still store quite a lot.
Yes, I'd rather have a CD player -- I wonder if there's an external USB CD player in existence (why not?)�
Jan 29, 2012
Blastphemy Well put
Well put, Mycroft; that's exactly what I'm saying. I have no doubt that Tesla will be able to fill every pre-order slot through 2013, if not through 2014. It'll be a long time before someone will be able to drive up to a Tesla dealership and buy a Model-S off the lot. But when that time comes, to get your typical high-end ICE driver to pony up $92,400 plus options for the Model-S Performance, it'll need to have many of the standard luxury features a $92,400+ ICE vehicle has. (Note that I state the price as it is before the Federal tax credit, because there's no guarantee that it'll still be available if Congress gets in a real budget cutting mood at some point).
Dead on with the ability to heat up the car while it's still in the garage. No carbon monoxide suicides with this car!
Other cars (like the Prius) have the ability to cool down while in the parking lot, and more cars are offering remote start or cell phone start to get the A/C running, so that's no longer a unique feature. (It'd be great if the Model-S would offer an option for a roof solar panel option like the Prius uses to power the A/C.)
Never having to stop for gas is indeed something I will enjoy with great relish. I just hope the infrastructure is built up by the time I get my Model-S so driving from San Diego to Sacramento doesn't require an ICE.
Model-S Performance: $92,400
Tesla Metallic Blue: $750
Body-Covered Roof: $0
19" Aerodynamic Wheels: $0
Tech Package: $3,750
Sound Studio Package: $950
Twin Chargers: $1,500
High Power Wall Charger: $1,200
Owning a car that fewer than 0.01% of the U.S. population owns: Priceless
Total cost (before $8,798.13 sales tax, $7,500 Federal tax credit, and $2,500 CA tax credit): $100,550.�
Jan 29, 2012
AnOutsider They exist, will they work though?
Amazon.com: External USB DVD/CD f Netbook, Mini, Laptop PC - The Best Holiday Gift!: Electronics�
Jan 29, 2012
neroden Given that I won't have Wifi and I won't pay extra for cellphone service... how are they going to get access at all?!? Maybe if the cellphone service is free.�
Jan 29, 2012
neroden In the US, the administration has a lot less control over gas prices than you might imagine. Last time we had a gas price spike, rather than lowering the prices through subsidies, the government implemented rationing, which would drive people to electric cars at tremendous speed.
(Edit: I was referring to the 1970s here.)
At the moment, the countries which are subsidizing gas prices are having trouble maintaining the subsidies; it's blowing their budget. At the moment, given the mood, I think adding new subsidies to gasoline would be politically impossible. Rationing might be possible, but as I say, that would have its own result.
And on top of that -- politically prudent doesn't seem to be the watchword of the last few administrations.
I don't actually think gas prices will hit $6 in the US in the next couple of years, but that's due to fundamental economic weakness. They'll probably exceed $6 within 10 years (because nobody's going to leave the economy to rot for that long).�
Jan 29, 2012
brianman There's an easy answer to this one.
"I'm replacing my Detroit guzzler with an EV. Would you rather I buy from California or foreign? While you dig yourself out of that one, where do you want to go for lunch?"�
Jan 29, 2012
neroden This is where the analysis from the Deutsche Bank report comes in. You have to look at the variance in gas prices.
At the 2008 oil price spike, the price passed several of the thresholds for supply increase, but it didn't stay there long enough. A pattern of high spikes followed by deep crashes -- which is the pattern the oil market follows -- is one where the new supply does not appear, not until the low price reaches the profitability threshold. Sellers mentally track the recent low, in order to be safe.
But on the other end, when the prices drop, the buyers don't adjust (by buying more gas) unless the drop is sustained -- buyers mentally track the recent high, in order to be safe.
So high variances in price are, long-term, deadly for the oil market. But there's basically no way to prevent them apart from very heavy-handed regulations on trading, and the people in the (US) oil industry (as opposed to the nationalized oil companies) are ideologically opposed to it.
Cheap natural gas is expected to run out in the 2020s at current rates, last I checked. Biomethane should provide a steady supply eventually, but it's slow to come online, and I haven't seen a good estimate on how much is expected to become available.
Absolutely.
But honestly, while there are a lot of factors, miles driven per year is the primary determinant of whether getting an electric car is cheaper. If you drive gobs and gobs and gobs and gobs -- 100K/year, for instance -- it's clearly cheaper. (Assuming you can do this with the range.) If you drive barely at all -- 5K/year, for instance -- it's clearly not cheaper.
I'm getting it even though it's clearly not cheaper for me.�
Jan 29, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla I'd think this is more appropriate for neroden's purpose (assuming the Model S will have an AUX input along with the USB ports):
Amazon.com: Sony Walkman Portable All-in-one Skip-Free CD Player, Digital AM/FM Radio Tuner, Clip Style Earbud Headphones, 40 Preset FM Stations, Digital Mega Bass Sound, AVLS and CD-R/RW Playback: Electronics
Amazing that Sony still makes these (they retired the Walkman in late 2010) - the last Discman that I owned (over 9 years ago) had a ridiculous 3-second skip protection :biggrin:�
Jan 29, 2012
AnOutsider Man, it's been so long so I owned my first MP3 player (1998) that I forgot skipping was even an issue with CDs�
Jan 29, 2012
PeterW Are there any taxi drivers on this forum?�
Jan 29, 2012
ckessel Wasn't the guy that plopped down an order for 100 Model S the owner of a taxi company in some place like Iceland?�
Jan 29, 2012
neroden They probably won't, unfortunately.�
Jan 30, 2012
strider Tesla pays for that small diagnostic connectivity - Roadster owners have never seen a cell phone bill. W/ Model S I'm sure there will be data plans based on what you plan to do (diag only - free, NAV/traffic - $X/month, full web surfing, $Y/month, etc.�
Feb 2, 2012
vfx When gasoline was $2.50 a gallon the threshold to customer fury was $3.50 that is that's when people had enough and started cutting back on miles driven, hybrid sales rose, and Google saw a jump in the seach term "electric car".
Now we live with $3.50 as the norm. I'm sure that rhere have been small cutabcks in gas usage and other things to pay for gasoline needed but in general we are used to it. Same will happen at $4.50 and $5.50.�
Feb 5, 2012
neroden The total amount of driving in the US, however, dropped permanently when the spike in price hit, and hasn't rebounded. Likewise, the taste for fuel-inefficient cars took a hit and has not recovered. The same will happen at $4.50 and $5.50; each of these price spikes will do small but *permanent* damage to the gas-car market. After a while that begins to add up.�
Feb 5, 2012
Robert.Boston Along these lines, I considered driving down to my son's wrestling meet yesterday, about 70 miles away (the small independent school league is very spread out). I made the decision that it wasn't worth the gas price (I had seen him wrestle the day before). IF I had my Model S, however, I would have been down there in a heartbeat, if for no other reason than the pleasure of taking the car for a drive!�
Feb 5, 2012
jcstp Was the iceland order not for a carshare-programme, and the other guy from Danmark ordering 50 for his taxi-firm?�
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét