teslamotorclub: EU Signature Angst part 1

I have reserved a Black Signature Model S EU #229 to be delivered in Oslo, Norway. Latest delivery info now is 28th August 2013. This is as many of us know very late and 1 year later than the US Signature holders. The idea behind the Signature program was to put up cash for Tesla, in return we should get the cars first.

For many reasons Tesla has put EU Signature holders behind approximately 15000 regular American customers. This way of prioritizing has been suboptimal for the EU Sig holders. Tesla has by this move kept the loan from the Sig holders 1 year longer than the intention was.

Secondly, we see the delivery process in Norway (first of the EU deliveries) starting up slowly. They seem to have a priority process beyond this topic, apart from the fact that the regular cars seems to scheduled for delivery only days after the EU Sig cars. Thus again canceling the argument of early delivery of cars to the Sig holders.

Thirdly, EU Sig holders has an agreement that make them pay approximately $5000 more for their cars than a similarly configured regular Model S.

I will argue that Tesla should admit that they have not kept their part of the agreement with the EU Signature holders, and refund the price differential. By doing this, the EU Sig holders have contributed in funding Tesla, and for this they get their Signature cars. Tesla on their hand acknowledge the late delivery and align the Signature price with identically configured cars. After all it is identical products apart from the Signature decals.
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You can change your order to a production, yes? That might be the best route.

Tesla, like all car manufacturers, has to deal with homologation requirements. I'm not saying that's the reason for the delay, but it certainly factors in.
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bonnie1194 said: ?

You can change your order to a production, yes? That might be the best route.

I am not so sure about that. I signed the finalize papers in february! and the terms in the contract about cancellation options does not allow much maneuvering.
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There are a few threads on this for the US side as well and Canada too. There is one minor difference in that the Sig has more leather throughout the inside if the car but not worth $5,000 I agree.
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Pilotech said: ?

I have reserved a Black Signature Model S EU #229 to be delivered in Oslo, Norway. Latest delivery info now is 28th August 2013. This is as many of us know very late and 1 year later than the US Signature holders. The idea behind the Signature program was to put up cash for Tesla, in return we should get the cars first.

For many reasons Tesla has put EU Signature holders behind approximately 15000 regular American customers. This way of prioritizing has been suboptimal for the EU Sig holders. Tesla has by this move kept the loan from the Sig holders 1 year longer than the intention was.
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For Tesla to do as you describe would have required a simultaneous launch on two continents last year. I'm wondering where the expectation came from that you would receive your Signature vehicle in Norway at the same time or shortly after Signature owners in the US, but before US production ramped up? You are asking the impossible from Tesla, which is to have had infrastructure in place on both sides of the Atlantic to launch in both areas at the same time so that you could get your Sig ahead of the other 15,000 US cars.

You also realize that you would have been dealing with a lot of problems with the early production, yes? You would have received a vehicle that most likely would have required service for early issues that are no longer problems. As a EU Signature customer, you should be happy that Tesla has produced over 15,000 other vehicles, ironed out the kinks in production, and addressed a lot of issues that popped in the field. The benefit to you is that you will be getting a vehicle with much better fit and finish, and with many problems solved. This would not have been the case if you received your vehicle a year ago or even 6 months ago.

Give Tesla a break, launching an electric luxury sedan on two continents at the same time when you are a startup with limited funds and experience is asking far too much in my opinion. The higher deposit paid for your Sig was not to give funds to Tesla - where does it say that? I thought the purpose of putting down such a high deposit was for the privilege of receiving the first shipments. The additional $5,000 buys you some features that others cannot buy at any price. Don't worry, be happy!
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AmpedRealtor said: ?

For Tesla to do as you describe would have required a simultaneous launch on two continents last year. I'm wondering where the expectation came from that you would receive your Signature vehicle in Norway at the same time or shortly after Signature owners in the US, but before US production ramped up? You are asking the impossible from Tesla, which is to have had infrastructure in place on both sides of the Atlantic to launch in both areas at the same time so that you could get your Sig ahead of the other 15,000 US cars.

You also realize that you would have been dealing with a lot of problems with the early production, yes? You would have received a vehicle that most likely would have required service for early issues that are no longer problems. As a EU Signature customer, you should be happy that Tesla has produced over 15,000 other vehicles, ironed out the kinks in production, and addressed a lot of issues that popped in the field. The benefit to you is that you will be getting a vehicle with much better fit and finish, and with many problems solved. This would not have been the case if you received your vehicle a year ago or even 6 months ago.

Give Tesla a break, launching an electric luxury sedan on two continents at the same time when you are a startup with limited funds and experience is asking far too much in my opinion. The higher deposit paid for your Sig was not to give funds to Tesla - where does it say that? I thought the purpose of putting down such a high deposit was for the privilege of receiving the first shipments. The additional $5,000 buys you some features that others cannot buy at any price. Don't worry, be happy!
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It's not just the late delivery.

The difference in delivery date from Sig to non Sig is miniscule. Esp. compared with the total wait time.

Personally, I am glad I downgraded from Sig to general production a year ago and used the freed up money towards a roadster.

It would not be unfair, if the Sig holders got something extra for supporting Tesla for so long. Think free service for 1 year?

One man's opinion.
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AmpedRealtor said: ?

For Tesla to do as you describe would have required a simultaneous launch on two continents last year. I'm wondering where the expectation came from that you would receive your Signature vehicle in Norway at the same time or shortly after Signature owners in the US, but before US production ramped up? You are asking the impossible from Tesla, which is to have had infrastructure in place on both sides of the Atlantic to launch in both areas at the same time so that you could get your Sig ahead of the other 15,000 US cars.

You also realize that you would have been dealing with a lot of problems with the early production, yes? You would have received a vehicle that most likely would have required service for early issues that are no longer problems. As a EU Signature customer, you should be happy that Tesla has produced over 15,000 other vehicles, ironed out the kinks in production, and addressed a lot of issues that popped in the field. The benefit to you is that you will be getting a vehicle with much better fit and finish, and with many problems solved. This would not have been the case if you received your vehicle a year ago or even 6 months ago.

Give Tesla a break, launching an electric luxury sedan on two continents at the same time when you are a startup with limited funds and experience is asking far too much in my opinion. The higher deposit paid for your Sig was not to give funds to Tesla - where does it say that? I thought the purpose of putting down such a high deposit was for the privilege of receiving the first shipments. The additional $5,000 buys you some features that others cannot buy at any price. Don't worry, be happy!
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I agree with you.

I didn't buy a Signature since I don't have 30k lying around, but it seems like people are now complaining because delivery is getting so close.

For a moment, step back and think about all the things Tesla did in just 5 years time. JUST 5 years, it's amazing to see what they did what other companies took 20 years.

Delivering cars globally isn't a easy job and there are bumps in the road as you see. It was a gamble for everyone, even for me, I put 4k down into a company which never heard of.

Please, give these hard working people a break. They are doing their best to get your car to you asap.
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Johann Koeber said: ?

It's not just the late delivery.

The difference in delivery date from Sig to non Sig is miniscule. Esp. compared with the total wait time.

Personally, I am glad I downgraded from Sig to general production a year ago and used the freed up money towards a roadster.

It would not be unfair, if the Sig holders got something extra for supporting Tesla for so long. Think free service for 1 year?

One man's opinion.
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I agree they definitely could have made the value of the Signature reservation more but I waited 3.5 years and didn't get the car that much sooner than the production cars but not really sure what else they could have done. Short of halting production and keeping the factory idle for half a year burning through millions of dollars they just have to keep the production line going. A year of free service would have been a nice gesture.

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This is exactly what happened here in the US so these points have been well covered
Signature Angst
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When I read the first post, my first thought was that was exactly what US Signature holders were saying in August of last year. A few of them were also outraged over lack of communication, wondering why they were being delayed, and a few were also skipped over while people with higher reservations numbers were getting their car. I have no doubt that Tesla would love for you to have your car today. I would be absolutely flabbergasted if Tesla promised that you would receive your Signature right after the US Signatures. Why? Because there had to have been a lot of work done to have your even shipped to Europe. Logistically it has been a lengthy process to get your car sent out to you. I'm certain that Tesla has gone out of their way to make sure that you are at the top of the European delivery list. Good luck. If the US is any indication, then hopefully the frustration will fade once you are driving the car.

As far as I am aware, those frustrated customers didn't get any free things for their frustration. So I doubt European Sig holders are going to get anything extra either.
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I see the EU program as an EXACT replica to the US program. If you wanted your car earlier you should have reserved a US Sig. You reserved an EU sig. This means you get your car before EU production cars NOT before US production cars. These are the risks of early adopters. It is not for everyone, but one of the key requirements is a high level of flexibility and understanding.

The cost is also a function of early adoption. You get a car before everyone else. You pay for that convenience. Like it or not, that is how it works.

I hope you enjoy your car... Sig or otherwise...
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bonnie1194 said: ?

You can change your order to a production, yes? That might be the best route.
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I agree. Not sure if you witnessed what happened with the USA orders, but basically the same thing. I know of a P that got their car about a week after me (a 400-number Sig). Also paid a "premium" over what they paid. Nothing about the sig was worthwhile for me. If you still have the option of downgrading, I would urge you to do so.

I'd also have to disagree with comments that we should cut Tesla a break because of all they've accomplished. That's great, but what does that have to do with the value of a signature car?
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I am a huge Tesla-supporter, but as a Signature-reservation holder I am getting more and more frustrated by the fact that the Signature in Europe is quickly losing much of its value. I am sensing the same feeling form other Signature-reservation holders.

We funded Tesla with �30.000 each in a time when the company badly needed the capital (it collected �15 million from all European Signature reservations). The risk was fully on us. We are also paying a few thousand euros extra. Ofcourse we had a choice, but we made that choice because in return we would get our cars earlier, approx. 3 months before delivery of regular cars would start. This was communicated constantly, even during the Get Amped-event earlier this year, after which we signed the orders.

Since then the delivery date for the first Signatures has slipped from Spring 2013 to August 2013. Not nice, but also not completely unexpected. It was caused by the adaptations for the European market, but also by Tesla's wish to present good Q2-numbers to the stock market (which, I've been told, is important for Tesla's future). On July 8th production of European cars finally started, but at a fairly slow pace. My production number is halfway through the 500 Signatures and is only scheduled for production mid-August. That means production of just a few hundred Euopean cars in 5 weeks time. Tesla promised to allocate half of its production capacity to the European backlog this summer, but I guess other things are considered more important (delivery times of 2-3 weeks for US orders perhaps?).

Still, this doesn't have much to do with the extra value of a Signature. What does, is the earlier delivery. This week however I've learned that my Signature will only be delivered late September/early October, at the same time as R's and maybe 1-2 weeks before some P's in my country (and actually after some Norwegian and Swiss P's). I welcome early delivery for everyone, I don't want to deny anyone a single day of driving in the Model S. And it's also good for Tesla as a company. But it's also a broken promise, a promise which Signature-holders paid extra for and took a huge risk for. So I support the cause of the topic starter.

I'm not saying Tesla pay the back all of the Signature-premium. There is still some (if little) value in a Signature. But I am saying they could do something extra for the European Signature-holders, like free 3G for several years or something like that. And if that is too much to ask, do something symbolic. Because at the moment Tesla hasn't done anything yet. Fisker screwed up big time, but at least from them I got some items to soothen the wait, including a drawing signed by Henrik Fisker. From Tesla I've never received anything, not a single token of their appreciation. I had to actually buy a cap and jacket at a US store (with the help of a kind forum member from Seattle). Tesla, I know the stock market is important, but don't forget your customers.
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Here's how I see things... Tesla is going to get criticized no matter what it does because they have to balance several goals - some of which may be in conflict. You can't offer freebies and refund people money when you are trying to show Wall Street that you are profitable and generating higher revenues. When you are General Motors and operate in 37 different countries, own 150 manufacturing plants, employ over 200,000 people and have been around for over 100 years, there should be no excuses. When you are Tesla Motors and have been in business not even 10 years, operate in one country (now two), occupy 25% of a single manufacturing plant and employ 2,900 people, it's not like they have ever done this before or have a lot of resources on which to rely. So yes, they deserve a break in my opinion.
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AmpedRealtor said: ?

Here's how I see things... Tesla is going to get criticized no matter what it does because they have to balance several goals - some of which may be in conflict. You can't offer freebies and refund people money when you are trying to show Wall Street that you are profitable and generating higher revenues. When you are General Motors and operate in 37 different countries, own 150 manufacturing plants, employ over 200,000 people and have been around for over 100 years, there should be no excuses. When you are Tesla Motors and have been in business not even 10 years, operate in one country (now two), occupy 25% of a single manufacturing plant and employ 2,900 people, it's not like they have ever done this before or have a lot of resources on which to rely. So yes, they deserve a break in my opinion.
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Then why charge the premium in the first place? They got 35k more than they did for P reservationists as it was. Why promise things that you don't deliver? Things happen sure, but when you saw what happened in the US, why repeat it in other countries? They don't deserve a break here IMO.
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Recommendation: Rename this thread to "EU Signature Angst".
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I am fine with the time tesla has taken to iron out all the odds for my Model S. But Tesla would make me more happy to finally iron out the problems i still face with my Roadster after more then 2 1/2 years ownership. Now ths display shows permanetly error messages regarding the fan of the PEM. Looks like to much resistence with the wiring, when the PEM tries to power up the fan.
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Right_Said_Fred said: ?

On July 8th production of European cars finally started, but at a fairly slow pace. .
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Euro production started before July 8. I saw Sig Red Model S on the Fremont factory production line on June 28. US Sigs sold out long before I ordered my MS, but I would have paid another $5000 for Sig Red. It's stunning.
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This could have been mine. Was the VIN 14983? P85+
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AmpedRealtor said: ?

...You also realize that you would have been dealing with a lot of problems with the early production, yes? You would have received a vehicle that most likely would have required service for early issues that are no longer problems. As a EU Signature customer, you should be happy that Tesla has produced over 15,000 other vehicles, ironed out the kinks in production, and addressed a lot of issues that popped in the field. The benefit to you is that you will be getting a vehicle with much better fit and finish, and with many problems solved. This would not have been the case if you received your vehicle a year ago or even 6 months ago....
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Elon even said* the EU is getting a better charger in the car than the US has. Doubtless there are dozens of other refinements to getting what amounts to be a (minor) second generation car.

I hazard to guess there will be some upset US owners when they ask for these Model S improvements and are denied by Tesla.

*(Elon in Norway video)
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let aside the time lap between US en european cars - I agree that homologation for the different european countries was a huge burden.
furthermore, the european cars got some nice extras, like 3-phase charging (thx Wido) and parking sensors (US-customers envy us !), amongst others.
for the beginning, it was clear that the european deliveries would trail the US-CAN-deliveries. (however, the delay is now huge !)

what I personally find very disappointing, is the fact that -as it looks to be- Tesla will not honor all clients equally. that is : order of production and delivery will be in no relation to the reservation number.

It would be wise (and fair) to
-first deliver all Sig's (honor the premium and high deposit)
-deliver R's (honor your first clients !)
-and then deliver the P's - all in sequence with ref. to the reservation number.

I can appreciate that EU-cars will need to pass Tilburg for 'assembly', whilst the NO and CH-cars will be shipped to the resp. countries directly.
Thus, a longer transfer-time from Fremont to the client.

But, what we see now, is that for some strange reason, unknown to us and not elaborated by Tesla, NO(andCH)-cars are prioritised. Why ?
They are produced before other EU-cars.
Seems that even NO-P's will be delivered before EU-Sig's. That is no way to treat the Sig-reservation holders.

I'm convinced that X-SIG reservations will be put at risk this way. Why would EU-X-fans pay a huge deposit and eventually a premium, in view of the way EU-S-Sigs were honored ?

I urge Tesla to produce according to reservation number. Don't prioritise on country ! (remark : even not to finalise-order, as not everybody was invited to finalise in sequence by Tesla!)

I also urge Tesla to communicate delivery windows to all european clients. We see short delivery times in the US, and some EU-reservation holders for years are left in vain.

We have seen great communication skills towards the press - please communicate equally outstanding to your advocates : your clients.
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Eberhard said: ?

This could have been mine. Was the VIN 14983? P85+
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Could have been, I couldn't see VINs. The Sig Red MS I saw were interspersed with MS in other colors also on the line, but the Sig Red was like a tractor beam that grabbed my eyes. I don't wish to minimize the frustration of Sig buyers in Europe, but Sig Red is worth an extended wait. P85+ Sig Red would be even more unusual, I don't believe there are any P85+ Sigs in North America.
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The sigs were never a good value for early reservation holders, unless they REALLY wanted the sig red. The sigs might be a good value for a late reservation holder, as a way to jump in front of the queue.

Everybody had a fair chance to downgrade to P. Lots of people did, and lots of happy people upgraded and jumped the queue.
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I put my money in for the Tesla and then Sig long before any European reservations occurred. I felt the same angst and pain waiting for my sig which came only two weeks before American standard versions were delivered.

I love my Sig Red. Totally worth the money for me. They do give a little extra connectivity with the Sig.
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Definitely understand your frustration, and I hope Tesla does well by you. Hopefully you will get more than a Tesla duffle bag for your wait. That being said, Tesla finally got my parcel shelf delivered last week... 8 months after the car (Sig) was delivered. Yay.
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Pilotech said: ?

For many reasons Tesla has put EU Signature holders behind approximately 15000 regular American customers. This way of prioritizing has been suboptimal for the EU Sig holders. Tesla has by this move kept the loan from the Sig holders 1 year longer than the intention was.
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So, by this argument, all US and EU production should have been delayed until the RHD (UK, HK, AU, etc) signatures were delivered, while the factory sits idle?

I don't believe that is what Tesla promised. They promised that Signature reservation holders in each particular market would get their cars earlier than production reservation holders in the same market. So, Norwegian sigs before Norwegian production, Swiss sigs before Swiss production, Hong Kong sigs before Hong Kong production. And, roadster friends & family before production.

From what I read, the launch in US didn't go exactly that way in all cases, but in general that is how it proceeded. In particular, the related promise that 85kWh would get their cars before 60kWh before 40kWh and delays with some paint colours and other options, really messed up the order. Hopefully for Europe the supply chain has stabilised now and things will be fairer.

The real issue is that with a production rate of more than 400 cars a week, they have the capacity to produce the signatures very quickly. The time frame between the signatures and production vehicles will be very small. But, what is Tesla supposed to do? Pointlessly delay production vehicles by months just to make the signature holders feel better?

I suspect that the bottleneck is not going to be production constraints, but rather delivery constraints. Certainly, I don't see how the small Hong Kong team is going to deliver 300+ cars in a short period of time (when the same team spread 50+ roadster deliveries over two years).

Pilotech said: ?

Secondly, we see the delivery process in Norway (first of the EU deliveries) starting up slowly. They seem to have a priority process beyond this topic, apart from the fact that the regular cars seems to scheduled for delivery only days after the EU Sig cars. Thus again cancelling the argument of early delivery of cars to the Sig holders.

Thirdly, EU Sig holders has an agreement that make them pay approximately $5000 more for their cars than a similarly configured regular Model S.

I will argue that Tesla should admit that they have not kept their part of the agreement with the EU Signature holders, and refund the price differential. By doing this, the EU Sig holders have contributed in funding Tesla, and for this they get their Signature cars. Tesla on their hand acknowledge the late delivery and align the Signature price with identically configured cars. After all it is identical products apart from the Signature decals.
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We saw the same arguments from the US signature holders a year ago. The difference being that for EU signature holders they could see the situation and history well in advance of order lock-in.

For me, the choice of signature vs production comes down to that red colour. I can't justify it (especially as I live in a small place and a 60kWh battery is more than sufficient), but I live in hope of winning the lottery to make me change my mind.
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markwj said: ?

The real issue is that with a production rate of more than 400 cars a week, they have the capacity to produce the signatures very quickly. The time frame between the signatures and production vehicles will be very small. But, what is Tesla supposed to do? Pointlessly delay production vehicles by months just to make the signature holders feel better?
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"Pointless" is a bit inaccurate, IMO. They could delay the introduction of non-Signature vehicles in "new markets" by an artificial amount -- i.e. sending all the production capacity to established markets. Some would argue they did something similar with the 2013 Red.

I'm not recommending they do that, but they definitely could.
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Besides some (minor) vehicle feature differences (color, interior, etc.) the sig reservation simply allows one to lay claim to one the first 1000 cars in the market. The time effect of such a deal is manifested by the reservationists entirely. No actual timing is explicitly specified by Tesla. Thus if they could produce 1000 cars daily, guess what, you just bought yourself a day as a sig. You are paying for a position in a queue not how fast the queue moves. Regardless also, #1000 will always feel like crap cause #1001 will get their car at the same time if not sooner without the sig tax. You should have done your research on the US sigs. They struggled with the same exact issue.

This was also further made painful as cancelled sig positions became available down the road. This allowed a regular reservationist to jump forward very late in the process (say when sig 800 was being made) and keeping their $ close to their vest until last minute.

Think queue position. The timing is implied.
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vfx said: ?

Elon even said* the EU is getting a better charger in the car than the US has. Doubtless there are dozens of other refinements to getting what amounts to be a (minor) second generation car.

I hazard to guess there will be some upset US owners when they ask for these Model S improvements and are denied by Tesla.

*(Elon in Norway video)
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Here's an example: EU cars are getting parking sensors front and back, due to local requirements (it's a really big car for EU). Apparently this is not easily retrofitted to NA cars due to the lack of a wiring harness.

Canadian Signature owners got their cars well after they started shipping US Production, partly due to homologation issues. Signature probably wasn't terribly good value for the money, although I was extremely lucky and got the first delivery in Canada... by about 15 minutes... so extremely minor bragging rights there.

As others have said: if you don't like what the offering is, and don't care about Sig Red or some slightly better cosmetics, then I would recommend dropping back to Production.
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heems said: ?

Besides some (minor) vehicle feature differences (color, interior, etc.) the sig reservation simply allows one to lay claim to one the first 1000 cars in the market. The time effect of such a deal is manifested by the reservationists entirely. No actual timing is explicitly specified by Tesla. Thus if they could produce 1000 cars daily, guess what, you just bought yourself a day as a sig. You are paying for a position in a queue not how fast the queue moves. Regardless also, #1000 will always feel like crap cause #1001 will get their car at the same time if not sooner without the sig tax. You should have done your research on the US sigs. They struggled with the same exact issue.

This was also further made painful as cancelled sig positions became available down the road. This allowed a regular reservationist to jump forward very late in the process (say when sig 800 was being made) and keeping their $ close to their vest until last minute.

Think queue position. The timing is implied.
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I think you meant this post for the "Signature Angst" thread which is primarily North America focused. Also, I think you meant 1200.
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I was addressing item #2 in OP post.
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heems said: ?

I was addressing item #2 in OP post.
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My point was that "1,000" doesn't apply to Europe (or North America). Based on fuzzy memories and "The Tally", European sigs are the first 500.
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You are correct. My point hopefully still make sense with X - the variable and not the car.
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brianman said: ?

"Pointless" is a bit inaccurate, IMO. They could delay the introduction of non-Signature vehicles in "new markets" by an artificial amount -- i.e. sending all the production capacity to established markets. Some would argue they did something similar with the 2013 Red.

I'm not recommending they do that, but they definitely could.
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The OP seemed to be suggesting that all production vehicles be delayed until all signature vehicles were delivered. Specifically US production be delayed until EU signatures had been delivered. The only way of doing that, IMHO, would be to delay all other production, given homologation and other issues.
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markwj said: ?

The OP seemed to be suggesting that all production vehicles be delayed until all signature vehicles were delivered. Specifically US production be delayed until EU signatures had been delivered. The only way of doing that, IMHO, would be to delay all other production, given homologation and other issues.
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If anybody ever had that expectation of Tesla's Signature offering, they were grossly misinformed and making very poor guesses from incomplete information. If they had done something so foolish, we might have been looking at a penny stock by the end of 2013.
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Given the maturity of the production process now, I think the best we can ask for is that Tesla honor the S->R->P order, and within that the reservation sequence, within each country. Swiss R-1 should get his car just after Swiss S-last.

Balancing production capacity between countries is up to Tesla, and not something they've promised (beyond statements such as Norway will be the first deliveries in Europe). Tesla have their own production issues there, not to mention quarterly performance estimates.
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AnOutsider said: ?

Then why charge the premium in the first place? They got 35k more than they did for P reservationists as it was. Why promise things that you don't deliver? Things happen sure, but when you saw what happened in the US, why repeat it in other countries? They don't deserve a break here IMO.
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+1

Some people on the forum often say Tesla deserves a break. As a normal customer I say "no they don't". One might cut them some slack, but a normal customer doesn't care (and shouldn't have to care) about all the obstacles Tesla has/had to overcome. Every other startup has to overcome obstacles too in order to successfully enter a market.
I know many here are loyal Tesla fans and it is therefor understandable that they would feel some sort of sympathy for the company.
But be realistic, the average customer simply wants to get what he is promised. If Tesla promised a three-month-early delivery for Euro Sig holders (that is "three months before Euro P cars"), then that is what they should deliver. If they don't, a Euro Sig holder has every right to be angry. And it shows how little they actually care about their customers. They only seem to care for Wallstreet. Window dressing their numbers to show more impressive quarterly results, drastic price increases in order to attain an unrealistically high profit margin in an even more unrealistically short amount of time. I mean hey, that is not the "we are doing things differently" company many fans would like Tesla to be.

So, don't treat Tesla like they "deserve" a break. They achieved some impressive things, sure, but when someone promises something, they should deliver what they promise - or else lose their credibility. That's what is happening here.
(I think it is obvious that I am not one of those who have a special sympathy for Tesla - nor any other carmaker for that matter. I think Tesla built a great EV with the Model S, but other than that, I don't judge them any differently than I would any other company, carmaker or otherwise. And if for example BMW had promised me something in return for paying them a huge amount of money up front, and then not kept their promise, I would never have bought a car from them again. I am sure most people would act the same).

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vfx said: ?

Elon even said* the EU is getting a better charger in the car than the US has. Doubtless there are dozens of other refinements to getting what amounts to be a (minor) second generation car.
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Sure, but that applies to all European cars, not just the Signatures.
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I don't see anyone asking Tesla to give a break for not fulfilling expectations that where never promised. It is more that the OP's expectations are on the wrong side of reality.

Here is what Tesla stated:

"Each launch will begin with a limited edition Signature Series." (source)
It appears that Europe is handled as several markets, due to CH and Norway not being part of the European Union, and to differ WRT tax and homologation.
There never was a statement that ALL signatures would be completed before the first U.S. production car.

Honor reservation numbers for delivery
Tesla never stated they would do this. The reservation number is a place in queue being asked to finalize. If you bid your time, other car orders get sent to the factory first. It is unrealistic to expect Tesla idling the Fremont factory for you to finalize your car order.
There was a statement from Tesla that you have 30 days to decide without losing your place in the production sequence, but this appeared to not be true for North America. A bit of research would have revealed that.

Signature cars are delivered first
Was already stated up thread: Signature buys you first car, not an arbitrary amount of time before other cars are being delivered. If the OP would consider to drop back to general production, I wonder if he would accept to expect his car in January?
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jkirkebo said: ?

The sigs were never a good value for early reservation holders, unless they REALLY wanted the sig red. The sigs might be a good value for a late reservation holder, as a way to jump in front of the queue.

Everybody had a fair chance to downgrade to P. Lots of people did, and lots of happy people upgraded and jumped the queue.
Click to expand...

I didn't jump in front, i am waiting for more then 2 1/2 years and did 147.000km meanwhile with my roadster.
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Can you explain the basis for your claim of a breach of contract? What part of the contract did TMC fail to live up to?
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Eberhard said: ?

I didn't jump in front, i am waiting for more then 2 1/2 years and did 147.000km meanwhile with my roadster.
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Yep, so you'd be better off if you had reserved an early R (unless you REALLY wanted sig red and/or white leather).
Someone who reserved a sig 3 months ago got to jump the queue quite a bit, so a much better value for them.
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Especially after the US Sig launch I think people had plenty of time to drop back into the production line. That might mean waiting a few months more but that was an option if the price was too high.
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VolkerP said: ?

Honor reservation numbers for delivery

Tesla never stated they would do this.
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Oh yes they did! On many occasions, in many contacts with Tesla-representatives, reservation holders in The Netherlands and Belgium were promised that the reservation sequence would be respected, if you finalized within one month.

The reservation number is a place in queue being asked to finalize. If you bid your time, other car orders get sent to the factory first. It is unrealistic to expect Tesla idling the Fremont factory for you to finalize your car order.
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Who's talking about idling the plant? Most of us finalized our orders within a few days, and did so months ago. There is a backlog of thousands of orders for Europe, so it's not a matter of idling the plant. It's a matter of producing and delivering cars in order of reservation, so not Sig 4xx first and Sig 1xx a few weeks later (from the same country), which is what's happening. That's breaking a promise.

There was a statement from Tesla that you have 30 days to decide without losing your place in the production sequence, but this appeared to not be true for North America. A bit of research would have revealed that.
Click to expand...

So you're saying we should have known they were talking bulls**t when they made the promise over and over again? I guess we're naive then, when we thought Tesla as a company did things differently.

I know, it all sounds childish. What's a few weeks difference? Who cares? And it happened to American customers too, so who are we Europeans to complain. But it does leave a bad taste in your mouth.
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They can't produce the cars in the exact order all the time as things are likely batched, a certain part is short or a particular car has a problem and needs extra time. There will always be some variability. Add to that shipping to multiple countries and things will be even more out of order. If production 1,000 gets delivered prior to Sig 1 then they have some explaining to do. The only way to keep everyone happy is to ship one car at a time and wait for confirmation of delivery before the next car is delivered. Someone will always be upset about something 'why did Sig 9 get their car before my Sig 8!?'
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VolkerP said: ?

I don't see anyone asking Tesla to give a break for not fulfilling expectations that where never promised. It is more that the OP's expectations are on the wrong side of reality.

Here is what Tesla stated:

"Each launch will begin with a limited edition Signature Series." (source)
It appears that Europe is handled as several markets, due to CH and Norway not being part of the European Union, and to differ WRT tax and homologation.
There never was a statement that ALL signatures would be completed before the first U.S. production car.
Click to expand...

Let's not get ridiculous. None of the early adaptors, even not the SIG's, did expect that the EuropeanSIG's would be delivered before the US-P's. It was always stated by Tesla that the European deliveries would be later that the US-CAN.

It is obvious, due to homologation, 3phase-charging etc., that the EU-car is not the same as the US-car.
However, this is not valid to prioritize one European country over the other. Differences between the different european countries is not that big.
And I cannot see what Tax-differences has to do with production of the European-cars. (read well : I mean production - not shipment and 'splash-and-dash in Tilburg.)

VolkerP said: ?

Honor reservation numbers for delivery
Tesla never stated they would do this.
Click to expand...

They certainly did, on paper, and on several occasions !

VolkerP said: ?

The reservation number is a place in queue being asked to finalize. If you bid your time, other car orders get sent to the factory first. It is unrealistic to expect Tesla idling the Fremont factory for you to finalize your car order.
There was a statement from Tesla that you have 30 days to decide without losing your place in the production sequence, but this appeared to not be true for North America. A bit of research would have revealed that.
Click to expand...

For strange reasons, some reservations holders were invited earlier than others. I can agree that if somebody does not finalize 'in time' (read 4 weeks), that he will lose his place in the queue. However, in this case, Tesla choose to invite people late. That's not 'our' mistake.
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AustinPowers said: ?

Some people on the forum often say Tesla deserves a break. As a normal customer I say "no they don't". One might cut them some slack, but a normal customer doesn't care (and shouldn't have to care) about all the obstacles Tesla has/had to overcome. Every other startup has to overcome obstacles too in order to successfully enter a market.
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I could not disagree more with the above statement. "Normal" customers don't buy a first generation vehicle from a startup company who has never mass produced a car... ever. I don't know of many "normal" customers who even know about this car. By "normal", what exactly is your definition? Those who do buy into such a vehicle should expect some bumps in the road. Anyone who puts down $35,000 reservation for a $100,000+ vehicle should be intelligent enough to know what he or she is getting into. Perhaps Tesla is guilty of setting the expectations too high, but if I were plunking down $35,000 for a Sig reservation I would expect to receive a Sig vehicle. I would not expect Tesla to hold up manufacturing the rest of its fleet because of the handful of Sig reservations that were supposed to ship earlier. Any "normal" customer who expected a totally smooth ride from this unproven company simply had their blinders on and are not considering reality.

Also, OP and others are complaining about what Tesla promised, said, etc. How about this... what does it say in your written reservation agreement? How about we look at the agreements you made with Tesla in writing - not what you heard or read on the internet?
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dsm363 said: ?

They can't produce the cars in the exact order all the time as things are likely batched, a certain part is short or a particular car has a problem and needs extra time. There will always be some variability. Add to that shipping to multiple countries and things will be even more out of order. If production 1,000 gets delivered prior to Sig 1 then they have some explaining to do. The only way to keep everyone happy is to ship one car at a time and wait for confirmation of delivery before the next car is delivered. Someone will always be upset about something 'why did Sig 9 get their car before my Sig 8!?'
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Don't be silly.... we are not talking about one number.
We are talking hunderds, no : thousands of numbers.

There are P2300+ with VIN assigned - and P0400- left without notice.

P2300+ will have made his reservation some months ago, P0400- years ago.

Tell me, honestly, does that sound fair ?

Would you call that 'honouring' your clients ?
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EU-P1422 said: ?

Don't be silly.... we are not talking about one number.
We are talking hunderds, if not thousands of numbers.

There are P2300+ with VIN assigned - and P0400- left without notice.

P2300+ will have made his reservation some months ago, P0400-years ago.

Tell me, honestly, does that sound fair ?

Would you call that 'honouring' your clients ?
Click to expand...

It might not be fair but that is what is happening with the manufacturing process. Do you think it is personal? I'd imagine they are trying to stick to the reservation order as much as possible.

My point with the example is what you may find infuriating someone one else might find not a big deal. There is no number that will keep everyone happy. There were examples like this with the US where one early Sig car had multiple problems through production and ended up getting delivered after the first few hundred production cars. I don't think Tesla did this out if spite, there was a production issue.

What would be your solution then? What is an acceptable out of order delivery for everyone single customer. Is it 1, 10, 100...? Everyone will draw the line differently. Again, if everyone ordered the exact same car I'd imagine producing and delivering cars in near perfect order would be a breeze. People want different things and we know Tesla batches production of certain thing. The reservation number is a reservation number, not a promise of exact order of delivery.

I agree 2,000 is a very large out of order delivery number. Has that person reached out to Tesla to find out why a VIN hasn't been assigned?
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jkirkebo said: ?

lots of happy people upgraded and jumped the queue.
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I do not have a problem with that, everybody has the chance to get on the waiting list.
(and I guess the list is first come, first served... at least, I hope.)

- - - Updated - - -

dsm363 said: ?

It might not be fair but that is what is happening with the manufacturing process. Do you think it is personal? I'd imagine they are trying to stick to the reservation order as much as possible.
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I do not think it's personal - it is clear, as I stated, that countries are prioritized.
There might be a good reason for that : then why does Tesla not communicate this to their customers ?

dsm363 said: ?

I agree 2,000 is a very large out of order delivery number. Has that person reached out to Tesla to find out why a VIN hasn't been assigned?
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Well, I don't know about that specific number I'm refering to (I can ask on the forum).
As mentioned, IMHO Tesla should communicate, proactive.

We all are early adaptors, thus it is obvious that Tesla has a lot of credit with us, and we all (that is : most of us) understand that there are bumps on the road.
But we cannot understand why clients are left in vain. ( I know other who forum-members did ask, but got no firm answer.)

I personally did ask, and the answer was : "we first need to produce 500 Sig's, and then 1421 P's" That would be fine with me... but's this is not what is happening...

Good, pro-active communication by Tesla would surely help to take away the irritation.
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I agree. Tesla and communication have not always worked well together. Explaining their reasoning for doing things on a global scale would help smooth things along even if people didn't like the answer.
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dsm363 said: ?

I agree. Tesla and communication have not always worked well together. Explaining their reasoning for doing things on a global scale would help smooth things along even if people didn't like the answer.
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FYI : have a look at this :
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/10726-Belgium-and-the-Netherlands-(Dutch)/page470

text is in Dutch, but pictures speak for themselves.

just to show how big a fan a fellow Belgian reservation holder is.
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dsm363 said: ?

I agree. Tesla and communication have not always worked well together. Explaining their reasoning for doing things on a global scale would help smooth things along even if people didn't like the answer.
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Indeed, I think just communicating would already go a long way to avoid customers (in most cases fans!) getting pissed off. And it would also stop these kind of topics from popping up. Why can't Tesla simply communicate with its customers? A blog by George B would already do the trick (I hope he's alright; he's been out of the picture for quite some time now).

Just explain to us:

- Why is Tesla producing Norwegian and Swiss cars first? Those cars already have a faster delivery channel (they avoid subassembly in Tilburg, The Netherlands), so it would make more sense to build other European cars first, to cancel out that effect. But instead Tesla decided to build Norwegian and Swiss cars first. Maybe there's a valid reason to do this, like the Tilburg factory not being ready yet. But if you don't inform anyone of that reason, the rest of Europe feels bad.
- Why are later Signatures being built and delivered (well) before earlier Signatures? Is it more efficient to batch them? Are some parts missing? Tell us in a blog and we will understand. But knowing nothing just causes frustration.
- Why has production of all European cars again been delayed for 1-2 months. Homologation issues? Q2-issues? (I know, they wouldn't tell us). But just give people a valid reason and they will understand.
- Why are people not actively being informed about the fact that delivery windows will not be made? If someone has a delivery window of June-July, it's July 25th and Tesla already knows the car is going to be produced in August and delivered in September, shouldn't Tesla call that customer? There's enough people to make those calls; we got a lot of them when we still had to sign the order ;-)

A blog and some calls, that can't be too much to ask.
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Every Tesla employee I have encountered, especially the service managers. treat me like royalty because our car in an early Canadian Signature. To me, that, and the still classically gorgeous Signature Red are plenty value for the up-charge. Sure it was hard to wait while the first several hundred US "P's" got delivered ahead of us, while the bureaucratic gears in Ottawa ground, but half a year later. that means nothing to me.
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djromain said: ?

At begining of July, I send a mail to Timothee Rischmann at TESLA :
"Quand la production des mod�les europ�ens d�bute dans l'usine TESLA ? Est ce que les norv�giens vont tous �tre prioritaires sur le reste des autres clients europ�ens ?
J'ai le num�ro 2284, et l'estimation annonce une livraison Septembre / octobre. Est ce qu'il est illusoire d'esp�rer une livraison d�but septembre voire plus t�t, lorsque certains disent que vous aurez du retard dans les livraisons ?"
---------
"when production begins in European models TESLA factory? Is that Norwegian will all take priority over the rest of the other European customers?

I have the number 2284, and the estimated delivery announcement in September / October. Is it unrealistic to expect delivery in early September or even earlier, when some say that you delay in deliveries? "

His answer :
"Les norv�giens ne sont pas tous prioritaires sur le reste de l'Europe. Ils commenceront � �tre livr�s � peu pr�s un mois avant car leurs v�hicules ne passent pas par l'assemblage en Hollande pour l'importation. Je crois savoir que les premi�res Model S europ�enne sont d�j� sur la ligne de production. Je pense qu'il est plus raisonnable de tabler sur une livraison mi-septembre que d�but.Si un client annule, toute la liste en dessous remont� d'un cran."
-------------------
"Norwegians are not all priority over the rest of Europe. They will begin to be delivered in about a month before because their vehicles do not pass through the assembly in Holland for import. I understand that the first European Model S already on the production line. I think it is more reasonable to expect a delivery early as mid-September. If a customer cancels the whole list below risen a notch."

I would be happy if really I would receive ma car in September as Timothee said it would be possible. But when I read all what we are saying on the forum theses days, I can't think anymore it is true especially when some of you are getting delivery hope after october !!

Click to expand...

Mid-September for P #2284? I am afraid I have to disappoint you. Mr. Rischmann is completely misinformed or unrealistically optimistic. I am Sig #283 and I will be lucky if my car gets delivered before the End of September (one Tesla representative I spoke to even said early October). So with P #2284 you will be lucky to get your car in November.

His answer about Norwegian cars is not true. The early delivery by a month is just partly caused by not having to go though sub-assembly in The Netherlands. The main reason is that many Norwegian and Swiss cars are being built weeks earlier. Almost all cars in the EU-excel sheet on this website that have the status 'completed' or 'in production' are either NO or CH.
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AmpedRealtor said: ?

I could not disagree more with the above statement. "Normal" customers don't buy a first generation vehicle from a startup company who has never mass produced a car... ever. I don't know of many "normal" customers who even know about this car. By "normal", what exactly is your definition? Those who do buy into such a vehicle should expect some bumps in the road. Anyone who puts down $35,000 reservation for a $100,000+ vehicle should be intelligent enough to know what he or she is getting into. Perhaps Tesla is guilty of setting the expectations too high, but if I were plunking down $35,000 for a Sig reservation I would expect to receive a Sig vehicle. I would not expect Tesla to hold up manufacturing the rest of its fleet because of the handful of Sig reservations that were supposed to ship earlier. Any "normal" customer who expected a totally smooth ride from this unproven company simply had their blinders on and are not considering reality.

Also, OP and others are complaining about what Tesla promised, said, etc. How about this... what does it say in your written reservation agreement? How about we look at the agreements you made with Tesla in writing - not what you heard or read on the internet?
Click to expand...

As Tesla doesn't seem to think communication with their customers is necessary, looking up info on the internet (especially this forum) often seems to be the only way to get the necessary information. Shame really.

And about "normal" customers. Any customer who expects to be treated the way the company makes him believe to be treated is a "normal" customer. Especially all those other thousands of Model S buyers on North American road who are not members on this forum.
Early adopter or not, it is not about that. It is about the simple fact that Tesla doesn't live up to its own promises (or exaggerations if you will), especially to its most loyal customers - i.e. those willing enough to hand down 30K Euro to them years in advance in order to get the special Sig bonus, known as get your car significantly before general production in your country (of course not before US production, that should have been clear from the beginning)..
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AustinPowers said: ?

As Tesla doesn't seem to think communication with their customers is necessary, looking up info on the internet (especially this forum) often seems to be the only way to get the necessary information. Shame really.

And about "normal" customers. Any customer who expects to be treated the way the company makes him believe to be treated is a "normal" customer. Especially all those other thousands of Model S buyers on North American road who are not members on this forum.
Early adopter or not, it is not about that. It is about the simple fact that Tesla doesn't live up to its own promises (or exaggerations if you will), especially to its most loyal customers - i.e. those willing enough to hand down 30K Euro to them years in advance in order to get the special Sig bonus, known as get your car significantly before general production in your country (of course not before US production, that should have been clear from the beginning)..
Click to expand...

signature series has to do with resale value in my mind. having a signature will be more valuable only because it is a signature. I have bought quite a few signature cars and the resale is always better. however, the timing is always miserable because the early run is always delayed even with established car manufacturers. I tried to get a signature MS but was too late. so I was put on a Que. was this because I wanted the car early? not really. rather it was because I wanted a specific signature color and sticker to make the car more valuable in the long run. communication is a difficult thing and when you are trying to SUDDENLY satisfy 1000s of customers instead of a few it is a different ball game. yes GB comes from apple yes this and that but this situation is still new for all involved including us. give them a few years and then complain or give accolades but don't be overbearing now in the infancy. you will only get tired stressed and it will make zero difference. they hear you and they know but there are VERY many plates on the table at this point and they need to satisfy the larger group and not the smaller special group that will eventually reap benefits anyway. my two cents on this over the top debate.
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felixtb said: ?

seriously what does signature got really to do with time if delivery?
Click to expand...

It's part of Tesla's sales pitch.

From the Australia "RESERVE YOUR TESLA" page:

MODEL S SIGNATURE

BE THE FIRST TO OWN MODEL S
Wonderfully equipped
Exclusive options and colors
Deliveries begin this coming Summer
Click to expand...

Buy or Reserve a Tesla | Tesla Motors

When it's 1 of the 3 lines describing what Signature offers (in fact the first of them, and the only one bolded and in all caps), it's clearly a key component of the offering.

Furthermore, if you click the "MODEL X" link on the same page you can see they are making the same claims about it.
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brianman said: ?

It's part of Tesla's sales pitch.

From the Australia "RESERVE YOUR TESLA" page:

Buy or Reserve a Tesla | Tesla Motors

When it's 1 of the 3 lines describing what Signature offers (in fact the first of them, and the only one bolded and in all caps), it's clearly a key component of the offering.

Furthermore, if you click the "MODEL X" link on the same page you can see they are making the same claims about it.
Click to expand...

yes brainman and technically everybody is getting their signatures first in their respective LOCAL markets but since, as I eluded to, signature runs always are delayed they are getting bunched with the general production. AND if a sig holder delayed even by a week their finalization TESLA cannot be expected to hold up all the remainder of the ordered cars for that local market to satisfy the "singular" signature holder whom cannot decide........ or should they. I suggest not..... but then everyone has a right to their opinion.

considering a sig holder will reap the benefits of being just that at a later date anyway.........
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felixtb said: ?

yes brainman and technically everybody is getting their signatures first in their respective LOCAL markets but
Click to expand...

If you knew that, why did you ask this?

felixtb said: ?

seriously what does signature got really to do with time if delivery?
Click to expand...

/confused
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brianman said: ?

If you knew that, why did you ask this?

/confused
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guess it's late here (shanghai) and I'm tired of this really overbearing thread. I CERTAINLY KNOW I DO NOT HAVE TO READ IT. but you do get curious with the title and then you get tired of its persistence. I guess and again it's late..... . edited initial post...... to be more conciliatory......
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felixtb said: ?

guess it's late here (shanghai) and I'm tired of this really overbearing thread. I CERTAINLY KNOW I DO NOT HAVE TO READ IT. but you do get curious with the title and then you get tired of its persistence. I guess and again it's late..... . edited initial post...... to be more conciliatory......
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No worries. As I said, I think a more generic title (EU Signature Angst) is more appropriate and less whiny/demanding.
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Vger said: ?

Every Tesla employee I have encountered, especially the service managers. treat me like royalty because our car in an early Canadian Signature. To me, that, and the still classically gorgeous Signature Red are plenty value for the up-charge. Sure it was hard to wait while the first several hundred US "P's" got delivered ahead of us, while the bureaucratic gears in Ottawa ground, but half a year later. that means nothing to me.
Click to expand...

I am treated like royalty and I have a simple P85.
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I cannot be bothered reading every single post in this thread, but here's a detail that Signature reservation holders frequently seem to be missing: You are making a mistake when comparing your delivery date to the (presumed) delivery of the very first production cars. What you get for the extra money is you jumped the queue. How many reservations where there when you reserved and where would you be in the line had you not made a Signature reservation? It's easy to see how the Signature buys you an advantage of a few months.

Now if you reserved in 2009 then of course you'd be not too far from the front of the queue even if you reserved a regular production. Which was exactly the reason why I decided that the Signature is not worth it to me and went with regular. It's everybody's own call to make, obviously.
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Volker.Berlin said: ?

here's a detail that Signature reservation holders frequently seem to be missing: You are making a mistake when comparing your delivery date to the (presumed) delivery of the very first production cars.
Click to expand...

This is not a reservation holder's mistake. If there's a mistake, it's Tesla's:

MODEL X SIGNATURE
BE THE FIRST TO OWN MODEL X
Click to expand...

Buy or Reserve a Tesla | Tesla Motors

In markets where it's not sold out, the Model S Signature description includes a similar promise.
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brianman said: ?

This is not a reservation holder's mistake. If there's a mistake, it's Tesla's:
MODEL X SIGNATURE
BE THE FIRST TO OWN MODEL X
Buy or Reserve a Tesla | Tesla Motors
In markets where it's not sold out, the Model S Signature description includes a similar promise.
Click to expand...

Yes, of course. They should add "in your respective market" and a lot of other disclaimers and limitations. "Objects in the mirror may be closer than they appear." "Your mileage may vary." "Caution contents may be hot." "Tesla does not sell cars in markets where it does not sell cars. Tesla reserves the right to sell cars in markets where it sells cars. This applies to Signature reservations, too."
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brianman said: ?

This is not a reservation holder's mistake. If there's a mistake, it's Tesla's:

Buy or Reserve a Tesla | Tesla Motors

In markets where it's not sold out, the Model S Signature description includes a similar promise.
Click to expand...

That statement is on the Hong Kong site. I have no expectation that Hong Kong signature holders will get their Model S cars before US production. There is an expectation that they will get theirs before HK production.
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So getting an EU Sig is a bumpy ride and doesn't always meet expectations until you get the car and enjoy the air suspension:wink:
I went on the EU Sig wait list and was overjoyed to get a my Sig reservation. I know I am paying over the top and the car is not perfect but still I am very happy to be part of the revolution and if my few extra euros help everyone on the way then I am happy - a little poorer in money terms but far richer in terms that I think are important for us all.
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AustinPowers said: ?

... Early adopter or not, it is not about that. It is about the simple fact that Tesla doesn't live up to its own promises (or exaggerations if you will), especially to its most loyal customers - i.e. those willing enough to hand down 30K Euro to them years in advance in order to get the special Sig bonus, known as get your car significantly before general production in your country (of course not before US production, that should have been clear from the beginning)..
Click to expand...

We are debating a fine line, I suppose, but in my opinion it's rather obvious that EU customers would get their Sigs after US general production. Presuming otherwise would also presume a simultaneous, multi-national launch. Anyone who thought Tesla was capable of that was not really considering reality. This is no surprise to me, and quite expected. I don't know how this could be a surprise to anyone. If Sigs are arriving in EU ahead of general production EU cars, that's all that really matters and there is nothing to be upset about unless you are looking for something to be pissed off about.
�

I don't think anyone (except maybe the topic starter) expected European Sigs to be delivered before US general production. Tesla has never indicated this would happen, indeed because they didn't want to launch the car on two continents at the same time.

But there is definitely some frustration among European Signature-reservation holders about the fact that:

- Norwegian and Swiss cars are being produced first, amplifying the shorter delivery route. It would have made more sense to produce them a bit later, with the shorter delivery route then resulting in simultaneous delivery with Signatures in other European countries.
- The window between Signatures and P's is much smaller than was promised (nice for the P's, less so for the Sigs who plunked down much more money and helped Tesla through cash-strapped times).
- The Signatures per country are not being built/delivered on order of reservation date, but seemingly random. That is also a broken promise as on many occasions European Tesla-representatives assured that the reservation sequence would be respected.
- There is (was) no active communication from Tesla on the fact that delivery windows are going to be missed, some by a huge margin.

It's a pity, as it puts a damper on what should be a great experience.
�

I'm having a heavy Sig flashback...
�

Yeah, it's funny but this thread sounds about identical to US comments from about 8-10 months ago. I suppose people might have expected Tesla to have improved, but they should have felt warned.
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gregincal said: ?

Yeah, it's funny but this thread sounds about identical to US comments from about 8-10 months ago. I suppose people might have expected Tesla to have improved, but they should have felt warned.
Click to expand...

You have (had) folks saying "They're new, give them a break". Now you've got folks either still saying that, or saying "You should have known better". At what point does Tesla get held accountable?
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Volker.Berlin said: ?

Yes, of course. They should add "in your respective market" and a lot of other disclaimers and limitations. "Objects in the mirror may be closer than they appear." "Your mileage may vary." "Caution contents may be hot." "Tesla does not sell cars in markets where it does not sell cars. Tesla reserves the right to sell cars in markets where it sells cars. This applies to Signature reservations, too."
Click to expand...

You're misunderstanding me, I think. I'm not talking about the cross-market phenomenon. I'm talking about Signature vehicles delivered after GP vehicles in the same market. Should they hold up GP vehicle #1 in a market until the last Signature in the market is delivered? Damn straight they should have. Rally the whole freaking work force behind it if it's necessary. Keep your word. Retain customer trust. Show your backbone.

- - - Updated - - -

AnOutsider said: ?

You have (had) folks saying "They're new, give them a break". Now you've got folks either still saying that, or saying "You should have known better". At what point does Tesla get held accountable?
Click to expand...

I swear you must be paraphrasing one of my old posts. Agree completely.
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gregincal said: ?

Yeah, it's funny but this thread sounds about identical to US comments from about 8-10 months ago. I suppose people might have expected Tesla to have improved, but they should have felt warned.
Click to expand...

AnOutsider said: ?

You have (had) folks saying "They're new, give them a break". Now you've got folks either still saying that, or saying "You should have known better". At what point does Tesla get held accountable?
Click to expand...

brianman said: ?

You're misunderstanding me, I think. I'm not talking about the cross-market phenomenon. I'm talking about Signature vehicles delivered after GP vehicles in the same market. Should they hold up GP vehicle #1 in a market until the last Signature in the market is delivered? Damn straight they should have. Rally the whole freaking work force behind it if it's necessary. Keep your word. Retain customer trust. Show your backbone.

- - - Updated - - -

I swear you must be paraphrasing one of my old posts. Agree completely.
Click to expand...

This is the US Signature thread all over again. Which is really very sad, because we should expect better now.

For the original poster who finalized in February and is looking at September delivery if he's lucky... I agree you should be able to drop back. Hmmm, I finalized in early June and got car in late October and that's before production really started rolling. February to September is even longer, so that seems very strange to me.

Give up on the whole thing? I wouldn't give up on the car, because it really is that good. You'll enjoy it quite a bit.
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brianman said: ?

You're misunderstanding me, I think. I'm not talking about the cross-market phenomenon. I'm talking about Signature vehicles delivered after GP vehicles in the same market. Should they hold up GP vehicle #1 in a market until the last Signature in the market is delivered? Damn straight they should have. Rally the whole freaking work force behind it if it's necessary. Keep your word. Retain customer trust. Show your backbone. (...)
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In Norway we now have GP vehicle customers with sequence numbers as high as 223 reporting that they have been contacted by Tesla for delivery between 22Aug and 5Sep. Me, as Sig#4 have a confirmed delivery date of 27Aug. Some sigs have not been contacted by Tesla at all yet. Seems arbitrary. Not sure what to think about that..
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Yagi said: ?

In Norway we now have GP vehicle customers with sequence numbers as high as 223 reporting that they have been contacted by Tesla for delivery between 22Aug and 5Sep. Me, as Sig#4 have a confirmed delivery date of 27Aug. Some sigs have not been contacted by Tesla at all yet. Seems arbitrary. Not sure what to think about that..
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If P's are actually being delivered ahead of Signatures, that's absolutely unacceptable, if you ask me. First delivery, that is what you paid the premium for!

On the Dutch-Belgian forum someone wrote a complaint letter to Tesla and the answer he received just now includes the following statement:

"Signature Model S will be delivered before General Production Model S in each country."

---

By the way, I will get my Sig in The Netherlands late September or early October, so more than a month later than Norwegians P's. There are people on this forum who say: but Norway is not The Netherlands (or France or Austria), and you should look at the delivery sequence per country (which, judging from your delivery window, is also no guarantee). But I disagree. Tesla promised that the 500 European Sigs would be the first cars delivered. It doesn't make sense to only apply that promise to each individual country, because then you might als well choose to do it per region, or per city, or per street. Europe is Europe.
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They absolutely should try and deliver all Sigs before production cars within a market but as we saw, this night lead to a multi week delay in deliveries if one of the later Sig cars has a production problem and needs to be rebuilt. People are really that upset if some early production cars get delivered first? Tesla shouldn't try to deliver production cars first and shouldn't even produce them until the Sigs are done but some overlap is going to happen. Early delivery was one of the big promises with Sigs but so was the custom red. If Tesla builds 1,000 production cars before they are even done with the Sigs and delivers all of those first then yes, that is a big issue. Will see if that happens I guess.
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dsm363 said: ?

People are really that upset if some early production cars get delivered first?
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With it front and center as the first of the 3 "values" of Signature when you choose your vehicle configuration, yes.

My beef has been and remains that they say something very explicit and then deliver a weasly or incomplete version of it. If you don't want to deliver on something, don't promise it. If the products don't stand on their own merits without language games and tricks, then you're building a company and a product line with an image problem that some will consider shady, some will call dishonest, and some might even yell fraud.

Others have similar complaints about the supercharger rollout. The language made promises about tripling by the end of July that some forum members believe were far from being met. Why make the promise? Why announce the loaner program with phrasing that "there will be cars at every SC to meet demand and only offered for sale to existing owners" and then immediately fail to meet both underlined portions?

It leaves many of us with a feeling of "I can believe them on the broad brush strokes, but can't trust them on details." And I hate having the feeling... repeatedly.
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I guess that the seemingly arbitrary delivery sequence that is now outlined is rooted in the distance from Fremont to Europe, and the nature of the transportation from Fremont to the different markets. But that does not mean that Tesla couldn't have handled the delivery process better.

For some reason they did not manage to put Sig#4 (well, not even Sig#1) on the first ship bound for Europe and Norway. Perhaps these first cars that will be delivered in the publicity event the 7th of August in Oslo are for high-profile customers that may attract even more attention to Tesla? I do not know? If that is the case, I do not like it. If the reason is simply that these few cars were built first due to production concerns - then so be it.

The second shipload (is that the correct term? - by the sound of it, it could be something else :tongue: ) seems to be much larger than the first. It probably contains ready-built cars for Switzerland and Norway. Perhaps also some "unfinished" cars that must be assembled in Tilburg? I do not know. At least when it comes to Norway, the shipment seems to be a mix of P and S cars. Tesla Norway has told me that they do not know the order of which the cars will be unloaded from the ship, and that they will try to expedite the delivery to the customers as soon as their car is ready. I guess that Tesla Norway does not have storage facilities suitable for holding several hundred cars back while the cars are delivered in sequence. (Although the Norwegian port of Drammen where the ship will arrive do have 200.000 sq.m of open storage and can store up to 10.000 cars)

This is indicates that the cars are shipped in containers and not on a ro-ro ship. But nevertheless, these containers must be marked somehow, and unloading should give ample opportunity for sorting out the order. (at least if not Sig#7 and P#239 are in the same container - which might complicate things a bit...)
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Again, some folks are making this thread a joke.

No, we are not talking about a single SIG being postponed and delayed behind a single P due to a production problem; beyond the Tesla's controle.

We are talking about systematically prioritizing large groups of customers over others - for reasons we do not know.

If Tesla should have good reasons for doing so; then share those with us !
Now, the deafening silence by Tesla leads -again- to frustration and unhappy customers.
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I got yesterday my acknowledge for delivery of 22nd August, but was called today, that there may be delays as late as 5th September. While i insisted on the first date, i was told they will do their very best to deliver as promised. EU Sig. #32 P85+
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Eberhard said: ?

I got yesterday my acknowledge for delivery of 22nd August, but was called today, that there may be delays as late as 5th September. While i insisted on the first date, i was told they will do their very best to deliver as promised. EU Sig. #32 P85+
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Let's hope you get your car on Aug 22nd and that the delay is nothing serious...

:tongue:
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Looking at the statuses in the (List of EU-reservations) I am starting to get more and more pissed off.

Why is Tesla already producing regular P's for not only Norway and Switzerland, but also for Germany and Denmark, while it is still 2-3 weeks before some Signatures from The Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, etc. will be built?! And not just some P's, but hundreds of P's, as far as P1718!! By the time they start building these Sigs (which are not even late Sigs!) they will have reached P2500 or so.

I know they promised first deliveries would be to Norway, because they are the most important European market, but is that a reason to have P's from Norway pass Sigs from other European countries by the hundreds? And for Switzerland (and Norway) the argument was that they could be delivered more swiftly. But I also see P's from Germany (381) and Denmark (553) under construction, and they take the slower route through Tilburg for sub-assembly just like other EU-cars. Why are those P's produced weeks before Sigs from other EU-countries??

This has nothing to do with batching, this is doling out favors, at the expense of others. I am very disappointed. I thought Tesla was about doing things right...
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Those P Models can be for Roadster owner but should be delivered after Sig. and before P

Looks like some Sig. are posted as P

Maybe also some originally Sig.reservation changed to P Models as well
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Right_Said_Fred said: ?

(...) Why is Tesla already producing regular P's for not only Norway and Switzerland, but also for Germany and Denmark, while it is still 2-3 weeks before some Signatures from The Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, etc. will be built?! And not just some P's, but hundreds of P's, as far as P1718!! By the time they start building these Sigs (which are not even late Sigs!) they will have reached P2500 or so. (...)
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I cannot see the rationale behind such a way of doing things. Who at TM can we address to raise our concern and perhaps get an explanation?
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This Thread....

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AmpedRealtor said: ?

We are debating a fine line, I suppose, but in my opinion it's rather obvious that EU customers would get their Sigs after US general production. Presuming otherwise would also presume a simultaneous, multi-national launch. Anyone who thought Tesla was capable of that was not really considering reality. This is no surprise to me, and quite expected. I don't know how this could be a surprise to anyone. If Sigs are arriving in EU ahead of general production EU cars, that's all that really matters and there is nothing to be upset about unless you are looking for something to be pissed off about.
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Like I said, no one (with a clear mind) should expect that Euro Sig cars would be shipped before US production cars, and I think no one, not even the OP, was talking about that.

What angers him (and I am sure many other Euro Sig buyers) is the fact that (even in their respective markets), the won't get their cars before general production cars in their markets, due to the fact that there are just not that many Euro Sigs at all (what was it, 500 Euro Sigs in total? That's one week of production!). So assuming that Tesla isn't totally stupid, they will ship as many cars as possible at the same time, so perhaps quite a few Euro Sigs will share the space on the transport ship with their Euro production cousins, being delivered then at about the same time in each respective market. Tesla certainly won't hold delivery of Euro production cars back until all Euro Sigs have been delivered. At least I can't imagine them doing that.

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Yagi said: ?

In Norway we now have GP vehicle customers with sequence numbers as high as 223 reporting that they have been contacted by Tesla for delivery between 22Aug and 5Sep. Me, as Sig#4 have a confirmed delivery date of 27Aug. Some sigs have not been contacted by Tesla at all yet. Seems arbitrary. Not sure what to think about that..
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That's what I am talking about.

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dsm363 said: ?

People are really that upset if some early production cars get delivered first?
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Of course, because they paid an absurd amount of money for that priviledge, some years in advance!

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EU-P1422 said: ?

If Tesla should have good reasons for doing so; then share those with us !
Now, the deafening silence by Tesla leads -again- to frustration and unhappy customers.
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Which seems to become a recurring motive.
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What I don't understand at all is they are doing approx 400 Cars a week, why they can't do 200 US and 200 EU Cars for 2 1/2 weeks then at least all Sig's would be ready at the same time. While mine, a Signature, is still sourcing parts with no change since the beginning of July some of the production cars have the state that they are ready for delivery. That's the awful thing on it. And all production's have not paid 30k � upfront.
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AustinPowers said: ?

Like I said, no one (with a clear mind) should expect that Euro Sig cars would be shipped before US production cars, and I think no one, not even the OP, was talking about that.

What angers him (and I am sure many other Euro Sig buyers) is the fact that (even in their respective markets), the won't get their cars before general production cars in their markets, due to the fact that there are just not that many Euro Sigs at all (what was it, 500 Euro Sigs in total? That's one week of production!). So assuming that Tesla isn't totally stupid, they will ship as many cars as possible at the same time, so perhaps quite a few Euro Sigs will share the space on the transport ship with their Euro production cousins, being delivered then at about the same time in each respective market. Tesla certainly won't hold delivery of Euro production cars back until all Euro Sigs have been delivered. At least I can't imagine them doing that.

- - - Updated - - -

That's what I am talking about.

- - - Updated - - -

Of course, because they paid an absurd amount of money for that priviledge, some years in advance!

- - - Updated - - -

Which seems to become a recurring motive.
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I'm not saying you said this but did Tesla ever say 'we will hold all deliveries for 3 months in order to give you time to savor your Signature experience and ensure not a single production car gets delivered before a Sig in all of Europe?' or something to that effect? They did promise the car 'first' which in most cases is meaning little to no time difference which I understand is frustrating. Ordering a Sig (I waited 3.5 years) got me in front of the line but was less than two months if I had just kept my original production slot. I and others had plenty of time to move back to the production line (with a possible delay of course but if the $5,000 extra no longer seemed worth it no one was forced to sign the paperwork). I realize it might be frustrating that they are batched so close together but what I still don't understand is does someone else's enjoyment at getting their Model S production car make the enjoyment of your Signature Model S any less?
There are 1,000 EU Sigs I believe (500 LHD and 500 RHD).
I realize it is a much larger deposit for not a lot of benefit but you still get the car promised and generally before the production cars in your market. The EU market is so vast that there will be obviously some production cars in one country getting their car at around the same time as some Sigs in another country.
Should I be angry that as a Signature customer for 3.5 years Tesla didn't hold off until mid 2014 on the P85+ or the cold weather package, parking sensors and other options that EU Sigs had the option to order that I didn't even though some waited a year or more less than I did? There are some advantages to having the EU rollout a year later too.
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dsm363 said: ?

I'm not saying you said this but did Tesla ever say 'we will hold all deliveries for 3 months in order to give you time to savor your Signature experience and ensure not a single production car gets delivered before a Sig in all of Europe?' or something to that effect? They did promise the car 'first' which in most cases is meaning little to no time difference which I understand is frustrating. Ordering a Sig (I waited 3.5 years) got me in front of the line but was less than two months if I had just kept my original production slot. I and others had plenty of time to move back to the production line (with a possible delay of course but if the $5,000 extra no longer seemed worth it no one was forced to sign the paperwork). I realize it might be frustrating that they are batched so close together but what I still don't understand is does someone else's enjoyment at getting their Model S production car make the enjoyment of your Signature Model S any less?
There are 1,000 EU Sigs I believe (500 LHD and 500 RHD).
I realize it is a much larger deposit for not a lot of benefit but you still get the car promised and generally before the production cars in your market. The EU market is so vast that there will be obviously some production cars in one country getting their car at around the same time as some Sigs in another country.
Should I be angry that as a Signature customer for 3.5 years Tesla didn't hold off until mid 2014 on the P85+ or the cold weather package, parking sensors and other options that EU Sigs had the option to order that I didn't even though some waited a year or more less than I did? There are some advantages to having the EU rollout a year later too.
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Well the options on the Euro cars apply to all Model S's, not just the Sigs. And of course one could have stepped back to production almost anytime in the process. But is that what this is about?

I think the main reason why people are angry is because Tesla promised (or made one believe) that someone who ordered a Sig and paid a very large amount of money up front (goodwill so to speak), would benefit in a certain (and not too small) way. One of the main promises was that Sig buyers would get their vehicle first (implying significantly before general production in their respective market), which now on the whole doesn't seem to be the case. Apart from that, a Sig didn't mean much extra value. On the contrary, at least in the US for example some options that general production cars offered were not available for Sigs. Not sure if that was the case in Europe either, but I think it was.

Add to that the sometimes lousy communications policy and you get quite frustrated buyers. Especially in a demanding market like Europe, where Tesla is still very unknown, having negative word of mouth propaganda could be disastrous. Because if there is one thing that buyers over here don't like it's when companies don't keep their promises.
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AustinPowers said: ?

Well the options on the Euro cars apply to all Model S's, not just the Sigs. And of course one could have stepped back to production almost anytime in the process. But is that what this is about?

I think the main reason why people are angry is because Tesla promised (or made one believe) that someone who ordered a Sig and paid a very large amount of money up front (goodwill so to speak), would benefit in a certain (and not too small) way. One of the main promises was that Sig buyers would get their vehicle first (implying significantly before general production an their respective market), which now on the whole doesn't seem to be the case. Apart from that, a Sig didn't mean much extra value. On the contrary, at least in the US for example some options that general production cars offered were not available for Sigs. Not sure if that was the case in Europe either, but I think it was.

Add to that the sometimes lousy communications policy and you get quite frustrated buyers. Especially in a demanding market like Europe, where Tesla is still very unknown, having negative word of mouth propaganda could be disastrous. Because if there is one thing that buyers over here don't like it's when companies don't keep their promises.
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That is correct that the options are available for Sig and non-sig cars. Just trying to point out that if people want to be angry about the entire Sig issue that US owners who waited a long time as well paid the same big deposit but got a much earlier version of the car.

I agree Tesla's communication had not been great. Tesla never implied that the Sigs would be delivered 'significantly' ahead of the production cars, just that they would be first. That could mean a day or a week. There is some overlap with the production cars due to various countries it looks like and Tesla should absolutely have been more clear on this but in the end, everyone ordering a Sig car is getting a Sig car with optional Sig red (really only compelling reason to get it), more interior leather and optional white leather. Delivery 'first' or up front also happens but Tesla overplayed this advantage especially for early reservation holders. For someone coming late to the game the Sig tax for early delivery is much more valuable.

People with early Sig reservations like myself should get their car very early in the delivery process for their respective markets and emails from Tesla should go out if there are delays. There never was any understanding on my part that there would be some long pause after Signature production should I could enjoy the exclusivity of the Model S while the early production people had to wait even longer. We've all been waiting or waited a long time. We should all be happy that they are rolling out the cars so quickly. Does it suck that the voluntary Signature car you signed up for didn't get you a much earlier delivery that people who put down less money? Maybe but you still get the car that was promised to you with the above mentioned paint, leather options and the Sig badging.
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No one expects Tesla to pause production, no one expects Tesla to hold up production of P's because not all Sigs have been built.

What we do expect - and were led to believe - is that Sigs would be delivered first, not just per country but for Europe as a whole. Ofcourse it's not possible to deliver all Signatures at the same time to all the far corners of Europe, and because of that there could have been some overlap in the delivery of late Sigs and early P's. But delivery is not the problem here! The problem is that Tesla has stretched out production of Sigs over a period of 1,5 month or more.

They could have produced all Signatures in 1-2 weeks time, and immediately moved on to P's. But they didn't do that. They stretched out production of all Sigs, from early July to mid/late August, and put approx. 1,000 P's in between. This way some P's are being produced one month ahead of Sigs!!

To me this is unacceptable. Tesla hasn't even tried to keep its promise of first delivery for Sigs. It went right out the door once the orders were signed. They put all the Sigs and P's in a big bag and pulled out numbers.
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I'm a little confused. I just looked through the EUDeliveryStatus sheet. Obviously the Pre-MVPA dates are pretty useless at this stage and it's clear that Tesla is no longer manufacturing in VIN order, so I looked at the currently estimated deliveries. I saw exactly one P with an estimated delivery before october. Am I missing something? I'm sure there must be other evidence that a ton of P's are coming sooner, but I'm not sure where it is. Given the constraints of manufacturing it's obviously impossible to guaranty that all sigs will be delivered before productions, but certainly at least 95% of them should be, I agree. This was the case in North America.
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gregincal said: ?

I'm a little confused. I just looked through the EUDeliveryStatus sheet. Obviously the Pre-MVPA dates are pretty useless at this stage and it's clear that Tesla is no longer manufacturing in VIN order, so I looked at the currently estimated deliveries. I saw exactly one P with an estimated delivery before october. Am I missing something? I'm sure there must be other evidence that a ton of P's are coming sooner, but I'm not sure where it is. Given the constraints of manufacturing it's obviously impossible to guaranty that all sigs will be delivered before productions, but certainly at least 95% of them should be, I agree. This was the case in North America.
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The current estimated deliveries are not much to go by anymore; those dates are often not up-to-date.

It's better to look at the status of a car, and then you will see that there are already a lot of P's under construction (from Norway, Switzerland, Germany and Denmark). I cannot imagine those cars are going to be parked in Freemont for a few weeks to wait until all Signatures have rolled off the production line (Sigs are being built until at least Mid-August), before they get shipped. That would be too expensive and senseless.

There have also been reports of some P's getting a firm delivery date in August, with some Signatures getting a firm delivery date in September. So it's very unfortunate that Tesla decided not to respect the one thing that really separated the Sigs from the P's (besides the color Sig Red, which is now becoming pretty expensive).
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And the increased interior leather and Sig badging. Other very minor differences. One year on connectivity included in the US. There are minor differences. A few weeks difference is very minor. You might even have people who reserved over two years before a later sig getting their car around the same time or a week or two before.
Is every market in the EU not different with their rules and regulations? You say Tesla shouldn't hold up production as that would be expensive but do they have room in Europe to store a few hundred cars until every last Sig is delivered? What is someone goes on vacation for a few weeks as a Sig customer and doesn't accept delivery right away. Should that halt the entire process?
I understand the desire to get the car right away as almost everyone who has it loves driving it. I don't see how a few weeks difference diminishes the value of your car or your enjoyment.
Tesla should definitely be more clear about how the rollout is happening among the various markets but unless hundreds of production cars are getting delivered before Sigs in the same market, we should probably wait to see what actually happens. The delivery status on Tesla's website has historically been very inaccurate so using that as a definitive guide might lead to false conclusions.
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Right_Said_Fred said: ?

No one expects Tesla to pause production, no one expects Tesla to hold up production of P's because not all Sigs have been built.

What we do expect - and were led to believe - is that Sigs would be delivered first, not just per country but for Europe as a whole.
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I am sorry to repeat this but there never was anything from Tesla making me to assume "first delivery" for the EU signatures. The term "introduced to markets first" really can mean anything. I closely followed the first months of U.S. production. It became rather clear to me that Tesla did what they stated: reservation sequence number is your slot number for being asked to finalize. After that came the drama of batching for production and geographic delivery, which certainly stirred up things further.
Then Elon visited Norway this spring, and stated that Norway would receive the first cars in Europe. I don't remember if a reason was given. easier tax/toll regime, tremendous support there? If the latter, what's wrong with delivering the car to your biggest fans?

What completely escapes my mind is to complain that some general production cars might be delivered to Norway, while someone in central Europe is still waiting for their signature. As if that taints your car? That is a far-fetched, very strange concept to me. Nota bene, this is speculation and far from happening. Even the first Sig cars haven't been delivered yet.
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Well, there are lots of valid arguments. I really don't care much if some Ps get their cars sooner and for sure I don't want to have anybody to wait longer for no reason. We're all in the same boat here in Europe we just want to get our cars. I notice myself that I slowly really getting impatient. In the grand scheme a couple of weeks don't mean much. However I have to say that Tesla really has actively market the Signature models in a way that empasized the fact that you'll get Sigs significantly earlier. I remember that I was considering a non Sig color in January and I was told if I change to Production I will get the car late summer instead of spring.
Now it turns out that I get my Sig end of August instead of probably September if I'd ordered a Production. And that just doesn't feel ok for me. Don't now what the cure is, probably I'll don't care anymore once I have the car
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dsm363 said: ?

What is someone goes on vacation for a few weeks as a Sig customer and doesn't accept delivery right away.
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For scenarios like this, the customer chose a delay. That's quite a different situation.
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brianman said: ?

For scenarios like this, the customer chose a delay. That's quite a different situation.
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Not necessarily. People plan vacations way in advance and the delivery dates are a shifting target. People don't seem to care why a production car is delivered before a Signature, just that it happens. For every single Sig to be delivered before any production car in all of Europe gets delivered, even odd scenarios like this would need to be cleared up or explained to everyone with a blog post to make sure they are not upset. After all, a dilution of the Signature brand by any amount upsets some people even if it isn't their car.
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dsm363 said: ?

People plan vacations way in advance and the delivery dates are a shifting target.
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That's a shared responsibility issue with Tesla. Tesla for having shifting dates is sometimes the root cause, sometimes not.

My point was that many (most? all?) of those complaining aren't talking about situations where the owner deferred the delivery date (for whatever reason).
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brianman said: ?

That's a shared responsibility issue with Tesla. Tesla for having shifting dates is sometimes the root cause, sometimes not.

My point was that many (most? all?) of those complaining aren't talking about situations where the owner deferred the delivery date (for whatever reason).
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I agree with you. I'm talking about a situation where the owner can't accept delivery because they are not in the country. Others have said that even a single production car being delivered before a Sig is a violation of their trust and is to not be tolerated. That's a tall order is all I'm saying. There will invariably be some overlap and someone will get upset. Tesla should try and minimize the overlap as much as possible.
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VolkerP said: ?

I am sorry to repeat this but there never was anything from Tesla making me to assume "first delivery" for the EU signatures. The term "introduced to markets first" really can mean anything. I closely followed the first months of U.S. production. It became rather clear to me that Tesla did what they stated: reservation sequence number is your slot number for being asked to finalize. After that came the drama of batching for production and geographic delivery, which certainly stirred up things further.
Then Elon visited Norway this spring, and stated that Norway would receive the first cars in Europe. I don't remember if a reason was given. easier tax/toll regime, tremendous support there? If the latter, what's wrong with delivering the car to your biggest fans?

What completely escapes my mind is to complain that some general production cars might be delivered to Norway, while someone in central Europe is still waiting for their signature. As if that taints your car? That is a far-fetched, very strange concept to me. Nota bene, this is speculation and far from happening. Even the first Sig cars haven't been delivered yet.
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Why are you constantly finding excuses for Tesla? I know you're a big fan. But I'm a fan too; I walk around with a Tesla cap and jacket. But I'm not providing them with excuses, like I did with Fisker when they announced delay after delay and kept me waiting for four years. How will a company improve if it its customers give it a free pass every time?

Elon said they would deliver the first cars to Norway, as a thank you, because they are the biggest market in Europe (not necessarily the biggest fans. Norway simply has the best fiscal policies for EV's which make the Model S popular, followed by The Netherlands). But Tesla could have settled for delivering several dozen cars first. It doesn't mean you have to build many hundreds of Norwegian P's, at least up till P1718, weeks before you build Sigs!!

You're right in observing that it doesn't taint your car if someone gets his P before your Sig. But it does mean that Sigs get built and delivered later than they could have been, since hundreds of P's are taking up spots on the production line. They could have used the European spots to build the 500 Sigs in 2 weeks, they chose to use many of those spots for P's and spread out the building of the Sigs over a period of at least 6 weeks. That doesn't make sense. You take away the one advantage of ordering a Sig. If you ordered a Sig two years ago and chose black, silver or white and it gets delivered at the same time or even later than a P (which is actually happening in Norway!), what do you get for putting up �30,000 upfront (money Tesla badly needed during those years) and paying a few thousand euro's extra: an inscription and maybe a few months of 3G. That is just plain wrong.
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Some possible good news that might make some feel better

toms said: ?

Yet another statement from Tesla Switzerland (but this time I got the feeling that it might be correct - note that I didn't get a phonecall last week as promised, so I was calling them today):

The Signatures for Switzerland are on their way. They will not be shipped via the Netherlands or Norway. Instead they will come straight to Switzerland (of course via a port in the Netherlands, but without formally entering the EU). I didn't get an exact delivery date yet, because they only have 2 DS and 2 technicians staffed and all of them are very busy with events and getting ready for delivery (and of course there is the Swiss national day tomorrow and I guess there will not be much activity between the national day and the weekend).

My delivery window is between Aug. 13th and 27th. This is supposed to be the delivery window for all Swiss Signatures!
Tesla is planning to have a delivery event, where a few Signatures will be handed over to the customers, but no details are available yet.
I hope I reproduced the information correctly from my short term memory
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Right_Said_Fred said: ?

Why are you constantly finding excuses for Tesla? I know you're a big fan. But I'm a fan too; I walk around with a Tesla cap and jacket. But I'm not providing them with excuses, like I did with Fisker when they announced delay after delay and kept me waiting for four years. How will a company improve if it its customers give it a free pass every time?

Elon said they would deliver the first cars to Norway, as a thank you, because they are the biggest market in Europe (not necessarily the biggest fans. Norway simply has the best fiscal policies for EV's which make the Model S popular, followed by The Netherlands). But Tesla could have settled for delivering several dozen cars first. It doesn't mean you have to build many hundreds of Norwegian P's, at least up till P1718, weeks before you build Sigs!!

You're right in observing that it doesn't taint your car if someone gets his P before your Sig. But it does mean that Sigs get built and delivered later than they could have been, since hundreds of P's are taking up spots on the production line. They could have used the European spots to build the 500 Sigs in 2 weeks, they chose to use many of those spots for P's and spread out the building of the Sigs over a period of at least 6 weeks. That doesn't make sense. You take away the one advantage of ordering a Sig. If you ordered a Sig two years ago and chose black, silver or white and it gets delivered at the same time or even later than a P (which is actually happening in Norway!), what do you get for putting up �30,000 upfront (money Tesla badly needed during those years) and paying a few thousand euro's extra: an inscription and maybe a few months of 3G. That is just plain wrong.
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I second that.
- SIGS have paid a huge deposit, most of them when the future looked uncertain.
- SIGS have paid a premium.

IMHO Tesla should honor that - they could have easily done so by not producing all these european P's but after the 'small' quantity of 500 SIGS
(again, let's no talk about exceptions ! )

I don't think the X-reservations will benefit from Tesla's policy.
�

I ordered my Sig 2 1/2 years ago. When I finalized 28th Jan, i got the delivery date for Jun/July. Later Elon stated, that production for Europe will start June. Then I expected to get my Model S not later then 31st. July being my birthday. Also my wife holidays starts, she is a schoolteacher. The only reason if can prove was, that production in June may hurt the 2nd quarter results, while > 500 Model S may be in transit to Europe. Now I got notification, that i will get my car 22nd August, but next day, i was pushed back by me DS for 4th of September. Close to my wife end of holidays.
All my birthday pleasure were destroyed, now i will suffer the lost of my holiday joy as well. Only because someone very high up wanted to shine 2nd quartes results. Being a long term invester i am not interested in short term pushing of share prices but getting my Model S as soon as possible.
�

teslamotorclub

Thứ Ba, 24 tháng 1, 2017

EU Signature Angst part 1

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