Thứ Sáu, 27 tháng 1, 2017

Elon: Autopilot, new constraints on when it can be used part 1

  • Nov 3, 2015
    andrewket
    Elon just stated that they're concerned with some of the youtube videos showing customers using AP in an unsafe way. Elon said they are planning on constraining where/when AP can be engaged as a result (I assume via a software update.)

    <sigh>

    My car just got an upgrade today at a service center.

    A
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    Zaxxon
    Can't say that was unexpected...

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  • Nov 3, 2015
    Chasedrgc1223
    Where did he state this
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    Zextraterrestrial
    conference call...california?
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    eclipxe
    Pretty sure it will involve seat-weight sensor to stop activation when you lift your butt.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    andrewket
  • Nov 3, 2015
    Lanny
    Andrew,

    Did you notice any apparent change or limits in AP functionality? What is the version that you got today?

    As for Elon's statement about getting the AP enabled after delivery, we got that done today. However, not via OTA, had to take it to SC.

    -Lanny
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    Robbo
    From the call:

    "Almost a million a day of cars that are -- have Autopilot hardware. So, I mean, but the early data, this is early data, emphasize, is that it's very positive. So we're aware of many accidents that were prevented from Autopilot and we're not aware of any that were caused by Autopilot. That's -- but this is still -- this is still early and -- but it's a good indication. So it appears to be quite beneficial from a safety standpoint and I believe some of our customers have posted videos to this respect.


    <A>: But I do want to emphasize we've discouraged -- there are fairly crazy videos on YouTube, we are -- this is not good. And we will be putting some additional constraints on when Autopilot can be activated to minimize the possibility of people doing crazy things with it."
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    Gizmotoy
    I think we all saw this coming. A lot of people used it in dangerous or scary ways and that brought a lot of negative press. Their hand was forced. They pretty much have to do something now or *when* (to be clear, there will be one eventually) there is an Autopilot accident the plaintiff will point to all these videos and say "You knew this was going on and you did nothing."
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    Canuck
    Once again, our society is brought down by the lowest common denominator.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    sillydriver
    Maybe I'm an optimist, but the way he said it on the call (which just ended) didn't sound like it was going to be a huge loss of usability.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    yobigd20
    If only the car had ejection seats to expel those stupid drivers. Or it auto stop and tell them to get out and then it tricks them and locks them out for being dumbasses and not worthy.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    Cosmacelf
    Yeah, I'm hopeful it is only something like a seat weight sensor lockout. MAYBE geo restrictions to disallow use in downtown areas.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    Gizmotoy
    Hmm. I'm not looking forward to a future where, should I insult my vehicle, it boots me out and drives away.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    jhm
    TACC became unavailable to me today. My normal commute is stop and go surface streets.

    If this feature has become depriciated for me, I will be quite disappointed. I paid good money for this feature just so it would improve the drudgery of my commute.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    andrewket
    Don't know yet. I'm currently 2300 miles away from my car. I'll know on Thursday.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    AllenWong
    Can't we just block the update? I don't think the car can update itself without us manually updating it, right? I know some people who are still on firmware 6.x

    I guess my dreams of taking a nap in the trunk while the car drives me down the highway are over. I imagine someone dropping something in the passenger seat and trying to pick it up. He lifts his butt for a bit to reach it and then car disengages AP in the middle of a curved road.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    mobe
    I really hope they don't constrain it. I will sign an agreement either electronically or on paper that I will abide by the agreement that I accepted prior to activating autopilot if it would prevent this from happening. I use my autopilot as intended and I would be greatly disappointed if what I paid for and now have, was downgraded due to foolish behavior by some drivers. I think a better idea is to identify, deactivate and refund the money to folks who are not going to bide by the agreement they electronically signed.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    cgiGuy
    Not paying attention and having your hands ready to take the wheel (especially around a curved road) would be the first and most important mistake.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    jerry33
    So what happens if you use it on surface streets (responsibly) and the agreement says not to use it on surface streets at all?
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    strider
    Tesla can force and update if they want. They did that after the fires from people hitting foreign objects in the road. They forced an update that eliminated the car shifting to low suspension setting at speed.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    jerry33
    No, they didn't force it. I kept the original on until about two weeks before the upgrade that allowed low again was out. Of course, I had to decline it daily, but they didn't force the upgrade. They do have the technical capability to do so but I don't know of any instance where they did without the owner's permission.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    Soolim
    Geo-fencing might be the answer if Tesla mean the AP to be used on freeways.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    mobe
    Then that'd be on me and if something went wrong I would be responsible, not Tesla, and I'm good with that.
    I think that if you are using it outside of the agreement that you already signed electronically by accepting restrictions prior to activating, then you are doing so at your own risk and Tesla would not be held liable.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    BobtheV
    Actually the lowest uncommon outlier.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    Jool
    I'm pretty sure the big change will be a seat weight sensor to make sure there's someone sitting in the driver's seat. Kinda surprised they didn't use that already.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    Twiglett
    why not just remove AP from anyone posting a stupid video?
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    mobe
    If so I hope it has a delay so if I fidget in the seat it won't shut off. If I had to remain still that would decrease its usability.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    Max*
    If they geofence it, I'm not taking any updates
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    donv
    To Elon and Tesla's credit, they generally have a history of being pretty good about this stuff and not being annoying. I'm guessing that will continue, so I'm not too worried about it.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    Caligula
    I'd be perfectly okay with this.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    sillydriver
    I think it would be against their interest to geofence it to freeways only because it already works very well on freeways: they would get no further useful learning / beta-testing / real-world experience. Also, if they really wanted to keep it off of, say, well-engineered suburban two-lane roads, they wouldn't have equipped it (as they have) with the ability to learn and adapt to turn lanes, intersections, etc.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    Soolim
    Are you saying that learning is not happening if the AP is not active?
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    sillydriver
    Not to the extent I originally thought. Please look at my post here:

    #249
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    anxman
    Yeah, I think this is the solution too.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    hockeythug
    The car already has this seat sensor correct?
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    Caligula
    Basically all cars do now-a-days, as its related to SRS/airbag deployment.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    Rockster

    This. I somehow expected people who had the class/money/foresight to buy a Tesla to show a modicum of common sense. Silly me.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    MsElectric
    This is what we get for people making videos doing stupid things. We all end up paying by having nice things taken away from us.

    I really hope it is not much more than the occupant sensor.

    If they add nagging or limit greatly when Autopilot can be activated it would be a real shame and I suppose we can then thank all those people who made stupid videos.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    CHG-ON
    Thanks to the idiot and selfish bunch, that have to exercise their egos and show off, who have just ruined it for the rest of us. Now Tesla will clamp the feature down. I can't blame them. I'd clamp it down too because of that behavior. What choice does Tesla have?

    Very, very unfortunate for those of us who are mature and responsible. It will end up stifling innovation.


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  • Nov 3, 2015
    EMP40
    It should be simple, turn it off for the irresponsible and not remove freedom to use it from the rest.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    supratachophobia
    Don't worry, it's just going to be weight detection and seat-belt detection. You know how the car automatically goes into P when reversing if you lift your bottom out of the seat? Same qualifications.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    stopcrazypp
    I wonder if it has to do with the incident in Hong Kong where the government forced them to pull autopilot by rolling back the update until further notice. I think it was because an owner went to the media and showed how it was "dangerous" by using it in city limits (including through a construction zone) and the media took it to the government.
    http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/56532-Tesla-gets-warning-letter-from-Transport-Department-for-auto-pilot

    Tesla will have to make some kind of change there anyways before it'll be allowed.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    J1mbo
    This. Plus "hands on the wheel", like most other auto manufacturers force you to do with lane holding.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    stopcrazypp
    I'm pretty sure it won't be "hands on the wheel" as that would be a major step backwards (that was a major differentiator for autopilot). The Q50 also doesn't have a timer based nag, so it's not unprecedented to not have it.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    brianman
    They've done it once that I recall. It wasn't the suspension change though.
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    grahamsimmonds
    In the UK we already have a restriction that you in the US do not have. Namely, if we wish to change lane we have to have our hands on the wheel and we have to use full indicator not the "press down" three flashes indicator. This update is in 2.7.77. I suspect you may get this update in the US. I do not find this restrictive as it is not a smooth lane change, particularly on curves and I keep my hands on the wheel throughout.

    I am certain that the vast majority of TMC members use AP with the caution it requires. Those YouTube idiots post those videos for the purposes of self publicity alone and action needs to be taken against them. So if anyone knows who these people are, they should report them firstly to Tesla and to the appropriate authority if the law has been broken in that particular state.
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    1208
    This might have something to do with it...
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    deonb
    Soooo....

    I'm not following the logic here (put forth by many - I'm not picking on your post in particular, MsElectric).

    a) People do stupid things! They're going to ruin it for all of us.
    b) Elon: We're going to restricts people's ability to do stupid things.
    c) See!! They ruined it for all of us.

    Uhhh... so what exactly is the argument? Are you saying that the "stupid things" weren't so stupid in the first place and you feel people should be able to continue doing it? Or are you just upset that you didn't have the time to do the "stupid things" yourself before it got taken away from you?


    PS: I'm just pointing out the logical fallacy with the argument - I'm all for people doing whatever they want with and on private property. The wzkid57 driver-free video that likely prompted this response was in a controlled environment on a closed road, and probably safer than general driving with autopilot on the best public highway on the best day.

    Maybe the Model S should follow the lead of the Bugatti Veyron and hide all of the "stupid" features behind a second key. Can also bring back the 0.75" of suspension that we lost during fire-gate.
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    Freudianly
    Exactly what I was going to write. This thread is so full of illogical statements it is funny.
    It is the same debate we see when people argue that they should be allowed to drive faster than the currents speed limits because they are responsible drivers and know exactly what they are doing when driving fast and no they are not endangering anybody's life, and their freedom should not be restricted because irresponsible people drive really too fast or do not know how to safely drive faster than the speed limits. That is quite narcissistic.
    Basically, as I predicted, Google was right. People, when presented with the opportunity of using an evolved semi-autopilot, will want to use it even on roads and in conditions where it is not 100% ready to be used safely because the hardware and the software are not sophisticated enough, thus endangering the lives of other drivers and pedestrians. It is the natural tendency of the brain to save energy that is responsible for this behavior. Also, the modern human brain cannot stand boredom, and driving a car everyday on the same road on the way to work is a drudgery for many people, and of course they want their Model S to relieve them from that tedious task...NOW, not in 10 or 20 years; they do not want to wait for the fully autonomous Google car, beta autopilot is good enough for them, they want to fully live their lives and not wait wisely. And there is also the excitement associated with new technology: many people here are like kids who want to play with their new Xmas present all the time. They want to be free to ignore the restrictions clearly written on the screen of their Model S...on public roads !
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    sillydriver
    I think there is an additional tacit premise in the argument:

    b2) Authorities that put on restrictions in response to certain behavior tend to overreact by putting on excessive restrictions.
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    cytranic
    I cant wait for the video of the Tesla driving itself with a rock in the seat.
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    malcolm
    "a common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."

    -Douglas Adams

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  • Nov 4, 2015
    Vitold
    Drivers do not realize that they are not in control when Autopilot is engaged. They don't realize that Autopilot is not in full control either. It works very well, better than other systems but it's just still beta. There's a rumor that Tesla is working on system five times as powerful, with 8 cameras instead of currently one in Model S. Do you think that new hardware is just a bonus? Technology is in it's infancy and Tesla would be right to restrict it's use where technology is close to it's limit or will be abused.

    Probably the best summary of current state of Autopilot technology can be found in the article reporting on cross country record attempt with AP:


    Those who worry about restrictions, remember that Tesla is of the few manufacturers allowing full time rear view camera and can be trusted to implement restrictions only when necessary. It would be wise to put in restrictions before accidents happen so they will not be forced to overreact.
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    chriSharek
    This is a real shame. Reminds me of the note I just got from my son's teacher earlier this week.

    "Someone cheated on the test, and now the entire class will have to retake the exam."
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    Max*
    I understand your argument, it's the whole "Let's get to autonomous (Level 3) by skipping autopilot (Level 2)" argument that many manufacturers are making. They say that AP is dangerous and people are stupid (which they are), so let's avoid people making any mistakes.

    There was a good podcast about this topic (Big red button, planet money) about Googles self driving car, and going straight to autonomous because people are stupid. It also brought up the example of the plane crash that was on autopilot, and then when the AP kicked off, the pilot panicked, over-reacted, and crashed the plane.

    While I can see that perspective, I completely disagree with it. AP will save lives, if it hasn't already. You have to weigh if it saved more lives than it cost? I would bet the answer is yes.

    I don't think restricting it to where it's close to it's limit is the proper solution.
    -There are speed limits in texas with 85mph, so having AP going at 90mph isn't excessive speeding. Having AP set the speed limit for a driver is a nanny control. How many people actually go by the speed limit (assuming they have enough charge)?
    -Having AP only engage only on divided highways isn't ideal. I use AP on non-divided highways often enough, but I know it's limitations, and I typically use it in bumper to bumper traffic to just relax and not have to steer the 6" the car in front of me moved forward.
    -Having an occupancy sensor is a must, I can agree with this.
    -Where else can you limit AP?
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    Soolim
    Don't have to wait long. The same reason why we have hackers that want to challenge the internet security.
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    sillydriver
    I just hope it won't nag 'hands on the wheel' every two minutes on a timer. That's my worst fear.
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    lolachampcar
    I freaked out when I heard the hands on wheel stuff prior to my V7 update. I was wrong to do so.

    Elon is less tolerant of BS then we are and knows well that a lane keeping function that requires your hands on the wheel is near useless. Likewise, I suspect he wants people to expand the use of Tesla's AP in a responsible way and will likely continue to enable people to do so.

    I'm tempering my response until I see exactly what is changed. Adding a butt in seat requirement sounds perfectly reasonable and will have zero affect on the responsible use of AP.
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    tstafford
    It seemed strange to me that the current release of AP Lane Keeping didn't have a lock out in the event the driver isn't in the seat. Maybe that was actually intentional. By not having it now, they can do a simple (and non-intrusive) safety enhancement to pacify the media.
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    scottm
    What if it's not just a person doing "crazy things" on youtube, but a corporation (behind that person) who is trying to harm Tesla?

    Negative marketing.

    However, it's Tesla getting the airtime in the end. So it may not be effective marketing.
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    mobe
    It does make sure that a driver is in the drivers seat.
    It won't work unless the seatbelt is buckled.
    That safeguard was simply bypassed.
    I think that the seatbelt lockout is perfectly acceptable. I don't see a need to add a seat weight sensor.
    If they do then some moron will simply place weight in the seat, buckle the seatbelt and bypass both safety systems.
    Meanwhile it will be a pain in the ass, literally, because every time you try to adjust your position in the seat it will disengage the autopilot.
    Do folks really believe that the software development team simply forgot to add in the seat sensor? We all know that it was discussed and not implemented because it would not allow folks to be comfortable by adjusting position during trips. These folks are not idiots.
    Please Elon, don't put additional restrictions on the system because of the moronic behavior of the 1%.
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    roblab
    Seems to me that the whole problem started when people took insane videos of what AP could do. Perfectly normal. Yes. Must find out AP's abilities and limitations. I think most of us have done similar. Personally, I need to know what this little eight year old nearsighted child assistant is able to do.

    BUT, then everyone gets excited, start to predict doom, restrictions, etc. Elon mentions the videos during the ER. Immediately the forum decides that Tesla will take away AP.

    I think the perfect solution is apparent.

    Stop taking videos. Everybody's happy. :rolleyes:
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    strider
    But if that person then kills someone Tesla can say that they went through the trouble of bypassing *2* safety systems and that Tesla did everything it could and that the person is at fault, not Tesla.

    It would be trivial to give you like 10 seconds or something to lift your butt and pull your shirt down or whatever before it disengages. It's not an all or nothing thing. The car will already drop into park if you lift your butt when the car is barely moving so there is precedent for this kind of check.
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    mitch672
    The solution is to install a camera looking at the driver. If the autopilot doesn't detect they are looking forward it disengages. This may be one of the cameras in the new 8 camera system mentioned above... it could allow some grace period, before disengaging. It could also detect a "sleepy" driver via head nods, and suggest you pull over and get some rest (eventually it will pull the car over by itself). Extreme driver fatigue/falling asleep at the wheel is a major cause of accidents.
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    Andyw2100
    With all the discussion of the "crazy videos" I'm surprised no one has posted this one:

    [video]http://video.foxnews.com/v/4583711790001/testing-teslas-self-driving-cars/[/video]

    It opens with the Fox reporter pretending to read a book while driving, with a Tesla employee in the passenger seat. While I recognize that the Tesla employee was put in a really difficult position once on the air, and honestly have no idea what I might have done if put in that position, the clip does not help the whole "use autopilot responsibly" message Tesla is attempting to send out. This aired on broadcast television. I expect the number of people that saw this dwarfs the number of people exposed to most of the "crazy videos." And there's a huge and dangerous distinction: with those crazy videos it's pretty clear to people watching that the behavior is not appropriate and certainly not sanctioned by Tesla, but with the Fox video a Tesla employee was sitting in the passenger seat as the driver pretended to be reading a book while operating the car. That's a not so subtle message that Tesla must approve of that behavior.

    Viewers may realize that the book reading was an exaggeration, but the message that the driver doesn't need to be paying strict attention because the car is in control probably came through loud and clear. That's a dangerous message.
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    eloder
    My guesses:

    1) Autopilot won't let you go more than 5 mph above speed limit. If you're driving illegally (even when the flow of traffic is illegal), autopilot will have no part in assisting you. TACC I'm sure will still be fine. It doesn't make sense that you can autosteer at +35 above the speed limit and this also perhaps has the most liability in causing an accident in curves.
    2) "Hold the wheel" indicators much more often or even continuously when autopilot is used in situations it's not meant to be in only. So for example, when there is no divider on the road and on tight curves--by far among the most dangerous autopilot failures out there. I'm guessing this restriction won't impact stop and go traffic, or "not designed for use" situations where you have heavy traffic and/or a front-tracking car, as in these situations autopilot has amazingly high confidence.
    3) Seat weight sensor integration.

    I don't think people should overreact, Tesla is quite proud about how advanced their autopilot is, and they want to enhance public perception of autopilot for the eventual regulatory battle that Musk will need public support on. Constant nagging won't allow confidence building. The system also has highly advanced learning it appears, and Tesla would be shooting themselves in the foot by not getting a several billion mile head start on data for their super detailed autopilot and future autonomous maps over competitors. Thus, I feel that geofencing is a 100% non-starter as a restriction.
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    mobe
    How about 3 safety systems, how about 4? Where do they stop?
    Have you ever been backing up, twisted to look back over the seat and thought you just slammed into some unseen object because the car slammed into park. I have. I hate it because now I'm afraid to turn and look over my shoulder when backing for fear of trashing the drive unit. ( just an example of good intention gone bad )
    Seat sensors were designed to detect a person in the seat for airbag deployment. While I appreciate the out of the box use of them. I personally don't see the need.

    - - - Updated - - -

    If they implemented number one it would be worthless on most interstates. The flow here is right at ten over.
    I don't know how they would know where to enable the hold the wheel indicators for situations where it's not meant to be used.
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  • Nov 5, 2015
    Ingineer
    FYI: This does not hurt the drive unit at all. "Park" is effected by the rear electric calipers being applied. You can apply these at any speed without any stress on the drive unit. They were built for both parking and emergency use in the event the main hydraulic system fails.

    However it is definitely annoying! If your seat belt is on, it will not do this.
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  • Nov 5, 2015
    strider
    Well, they stop when the lawyers and/or regulators tell them to. Why do we need warnings on chainsaws and lawnmowers?
    No. That has never happened to me. I have a backup camera and mirrors. If I do turn my head I am able to do so without lifting off the seat. Maybe call it one of the small joys of being of completely average size for an Anglo-Saxon male (5'9", 32" inseam). I have no trouble seeing out as well as all of the instruments in my Roadster, Model S, and any other car I've driven. So in my case there is no downside and there is a potential upside as I have small children and I like that the car won't move for them if they're "helping" me while I'm washing the car or cleaning out the inside. You may be shaped differently and/or have a different process for backing up so it causes a problem for you. I'm on board with having something like a 5-second delay for the <5mph slam into Park scenario as well as the autopilot scenario I described above.
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  • Nov 5, 2015
    CanadaEV
    I think that by far the best constraint they could make would be to require hands on the wheel more often. At first I didn't think it mattered as long as my hands were at least near the wheel, and ready to take control. Now I see that hands on the wheel is the really safe option. It's a matter of your whole body responses. When you have your hands on the wheel, your body, conditioned for years to have that state coupled with attention to the road, is focused on driving. Hands off the wheel, and you lose connection with the car. Your attention does wander. If something happens, it takes time to regain focus, and that is dangerous. If your hands are loosely on the wheel, you have focus, and all that is needed is a fraction of a second to tighten your grip. People who don't understand this also don't understand what Autopilot is. They think it is closer to autonomous than it really is. Let's be responsible about this, and keep safe, and look after the interests of Tesla as well.



    - - - Updated - - -

    Many people say Tesla only requires hands on the wheel because they want to limit their legal liability. That is the way every other company operates, but Tesla, not so much. Sure, they have a legal department. But their advice is not self-serving. It is good, honest advice. The car is not ready for hands off the wheel. That's what they say, and that's what they mean, and it is not based on legalities. It is based on safety.
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  • Nov 5, 2015
    sillydriver
    I suppose it's a matter of personal opinion, and the TAAC part of autopilot would be very useful with hands on the wheel, but it seems to me that having hands on the wheel, as opposed to prudently near the wheel, renders the autosteer part absolutely, completely and utterly pointless.
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  • Nov 5, 2015
    Max*
    I'm not watching 14 minutes of your video, is there a particular part in the clip you'd like to point out where having your hands ON the wheel vs. NEAR the wheel saved you from an accident?
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  • Nov 5, 2015
    CanadaEV
    Sillydriver, have you tried that advice as intended? Hands on the wheel does not mean interfering with Autopilot steering. I agree that if you did it that way, it would be pointless. No, it is loosely keeping your hands on the wheel, so the wheel slips almost frictionlessly through your fingers. 'Almost', I say, because the tiniest amount of friction is picked up by the wheel-motion sensors, and assures AP that you are there. Doing it this way is certainly not pointless. When you have your hands there it connects you to the car. When you are connected your focus is automatically engaged. Otherwise, after a very short period of time, your attention cannot help but wander. Sure, some people will say, 'Oh, I can keep my attention riveted to anything any time I want.' But that is only pride, not reality.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Max, I'm glad you say Autopilot isn't the same as autonomous. We are in agreement. No, this isn't a video about a near miss. It is a video about why you should keep your hands on the wheel. It is for your safety, for the sake of your comfort, and at least as much about real respect for Tesla, which deserves your respect.
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  • Nov 5, 2015
    Max*
    I've done a lot of miles on AP already. I have a general feeling of when it's about to act up, and when it seems that it's doing OK. Sometimes I keep my hands loosely on the wheel, just because it feels weird keeping them in my lap (I don't know where else to put them?). Sometimes I keep them on my lap. Sometimes I keep them on my lap with my thumb on the wheel.

    If you factor in reaction time, and are paying attention, having hands on the wheel will always be better, but I don't think having hands near the wheel is going to increase the number of crashes by a significant amount. Not paying attention, regardless if your hands are on the wheel or not, will cause many more crashes.
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  • Nov 5, 2015
    CanadaEV
    Max, I think that is a fair assessment. I'm not promoting inflexible rules, and I doubt that Tesla will. 'Thumb on the wheel' still gives a connection to your driving. The key, as you say, is where your attention is. I do think that we have to find some way to keep our attention on the road. As a passenger, we don't do that. Autopilot does tend to give us an impression of being a passenger when we don't have our hands on the wheel past a few moments.
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  • Nov 5, 2015
    lolachampcar
    I keep hearing that AP makes you less attentive. I must be strange (actually, I know I am but that is a different subject) as I find myself seeing more when AP is on. It seems I use the extra bandwidth freed up from lane keeping to actually better understand what is in front of me.

    I also have a very good feel for what I can and can not do with my hands a given distance away from the wheel. If I have a high threat situation, a hand goes on the wheel. For instance, going around a curve with a bicycle on the outside of me will cause me to put my hand on the wheel. I would need it there to prevent a problem. Once past the bike, the hand is back on my lap. I think the system is excellent as is and actually treats customers like they are adults.
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  • Nov 5, 2015
    Max*
    Have you tried using AP on city curves? It has a high pucker factor, and I can tell you with 100% certainty my hands are on the wheel.

    I agree, it lets you concentrate more on the bigger picture.
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  • Nov 5, 2015
    lolachampcar
    This bit of technology has the capability to allow me to kill someone if I do not manage it so, yes, it is absolutely something to come to terms with. I stay within my comfort zone with respect to hands on/near the wheel then evaluate the experience to see if it adds or distracts from the total system performance. I am reasonably sure it adds a significant element of improvement in my case. I continue to do all the things I used to do while driving yet have the ability to use lane keeping as a few extra mips to improve safety.
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  • Nov 5, 2015
    sillydriver
    The autopilot, its behavior and learning fascinate me. When I have it on I sit there scanning the view, focusing on trying to think like the autopilot, or rather I try to anticipate situations of road configuration, lighting (e.g. striped shading from sun through trees), positions of stopped cars, etc., that would give it trouble. If I see potential trouble coming up I have one or both hands hovering a half an inch off the wheel, ready to grab it. Otherwise I have my right elbow on the arm rest and my hand open a few inches away from the wheel ready to grab it. Sometimes, when it gets through a tricky spot without a hitch, I tell it 'good job' (when I'm alone in the car). What I have said applies best when I'm on a good two lane road (federal highway). I don't use it on the narrower, shoulderless country roads where I live, because I know my reflexes aren't quick enough to catch the wheel safely before it sends me into a ditch. Interstates, on the other hand, are clearly within its design parameters, so I tend to have my hands in front of me, but not hovering by the wheel. But I still spend my time trying to think of what I am seeing in terms of how the autopilot is likely to process the scene.

    I don't want to have my hands on the wheel in part because I don't want to give the system unconscious directional cues that would invalidate my observations of how it's doing. It would also, in my opinion, destroy the fun of using the technology. I would probably just drive the car myself and stop posting reports (in other threads) about specific problem instances, cases of learning, etc., although for all I know, other participants in those threads would rather have me put my hands on the wheel, turn the system off and stop boring them with those posts.:smile:
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  • Nov 5, 2015
    CanadaEV
    Max, here is a very short - 15 seconds video of AP losing the markings because of a combination of a widening road to prepare for an additional lane, happening on a curve.

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  • Nov 5, 2015
    ecarfan
    Interesting video. At the beginning AP is tracking the painted lines on the sides of the single lane road. As the lane widens, even though the lines are still present AP stopped tacking both the lines even though the lane appeared to be only about a third to a half again wider than at the beginning of the video. Then at the end of the video when the center dashed line appears AP starts tracking it after starting to again track the right side line just a second earlier.
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  • Nov 5, 2015
    Max*

    You didn't grab the wheel? I would have...

    I've had that happen to me also, but I stand by my point (and I know we're in agreement), plenty of time to react if you're paying attention. Attention is key, hand placement is secondary.
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  • Nov 5, 2015
    sillydriver
    @CanadaEV, just to amplify my answer to you above, this is exactly the kind problem case I am scanning for and aware of whenever I have the autopilot on, even with hands a half an inch off the wheel, but not touching it.
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  • Nov 5, 2015
    scottm

    This video timebase seems altered, not realtime is it?

    Hmm. trying to guess where on Hwy 1 that video was taken?
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  • Nov 5, 2015
    CanadaEV
    ecarfan, yes, exactly right. I have been shooting video like this, (side by side) to enable the analysis you make here. It really helps me understand how the Autopilot works, and when it is more or less likely to behave well. It will improve as it learns, for sure. I have a lot of respect for the work that has gone into it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The time of both video streams is identical, in real time. I match the streams to the same 1/30th of a second of the video frame rate. It was taken north of Victoria BC, south of Duncan.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Actually, I did react in that situation, almost instantly, as my hands were already on the wheel, so I simply tightened my grip. As you can see, I turned my signal on to indicate I would be choosing the right lane if there was someone behind me. And yes, I believe you would not have had a problem if your hands were close to the wheel and you were watching carefully.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Scott, by 'timebase' you might be referring to the speed of the clip. Yes, it is slowed down so you can see the relationship between the two clips a little more easily.
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  • Nov 5, 2015
    MikeBur
    If you look at this in grayscale, at just after the divergence point, you likely get a better determination of why this was the case for the camera
    image.jpeg
    That central divider change, the leaves obscuring the line and oncoming traffic angle would be my guesstimate why.

    again, reinforces why we should continue to reinforce use as a driver aid, not a driver replacement ;-)
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  • Nov 5, 2015
    CanadaEV
    Having people with your level of interest in the Autopilot as beta testers will contribute a lot to its success. I think there are many others on these forums that are equally avid fans of this technology, and of course most of what Tesla is doing. It's unfortunate that the bell curve has to include people who don't have the respect for these things that they deserve. They make it difficult for everyone. I can completely relate to what you say - I have talked to mine at times too, because you get the sense that it embodies so much intelligence from its designers that you appreciate its accomplishments. And it learns! It's quite amazing.

    That's an interesting idea about giving it directional cues. The same idea occurred to me, but I thought it was not possible. I tend to think that it is either on or off, and not susceptible to other real time input. But it may be possible, and even a real benefit. At this time, I speculate that if we correct a wrong AP decision such as trying to exit a freeway when we don't want to, - that set of actions is probably information that is transmitted to Tesla. If Tesla gets repeats of that wrong AP decision through other similar corrections, they then issue a fleet wide instruction to curtail that decision at that location.

    Your idea of real time directional cues could be a much more sophisticated and quicker learning method. It's possible, but I don't think they have anything like that in the AP, at least not yet.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I've noticed that it is a regular thing for AP to lose one marking when the lane width exceeds a certain amount. It usually tries to find the right side lane marking, which is a lot smarter than trying to find the marking on the oncoming traffic side. After finding the right side marking, it continues driving, and usually either a new left lane marking will appear, as in this case, (but here, after it turned itself off), or the right marking will close with the left marking, and it will pick it up. That is most common in the reverse of this example. When two lanes narrow into one lane, first the center line disappears, but when that happens the road remains wider than one lane. AP finds the right side marking and hugs it. It is then shepherded by that marking to the left as the road narrows to one lane, until it picks up the left boundary marking of the one remaining lane.
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  • Nov 6, 2015
    sillydriver
    It's an interesting and unsettled question. There were at least two occasions when I experimentally tugged the wheel at points where it had not yet learned, and it seemed to accept the cue and move into the correct lane (once where a single traffic lane widened to two, once where a right exit lane came off a left hand curve in the road). However, on a couple other occasions in other locations it resisted the cue, so the times it seemed to have taken the cue might have been coincidental independent decisions on its part to go that same way. On the other hand I have seen a couple posts by others saying they could teach it the correct way to go by tugging the wheel. Unfortunately I can't recall which thread.

    Relatedly, I had originally thought learning was all either fleet learning or occurred while AP was not engaged, where it compared the driver's steering with it's calculated path and flagged differences. But now I'm not do sure. Please see my post here:

    #249

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yes! But in my experience AP did not initially hug the right line when gaining or losing a lane. When I used it for the first time at locations where the road gains a lane it would either wander in the middle and jerk to the right when it was about to overrun the new dashed line that appears in front of it, or it would just shut off. By the third try it would hug the right side. Maybe the fleet has now learned to hug the right line when the car comes across a new location for the first time. I haven't been able to test this because I tend to drive the same roads, and AP has now learned all the lane pick-ups and drops on those roads. I need to try new roads.
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  • Nov 6, 2015
    Discoducky
  • Nov 6, 2015
    Gizmotoy
    I don't know if it's just my computer or what, but that looks much slower than real-time. You're going ~50mph there, and yet trees and cars appear to be passing at walking speed.
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  • Nov 6, 2015
    Haggy
    That's partly true. They allow the rear camera to stay on. They don't have a nag screen. They don't allow video in the browser. They said on their web page that it's for legal reasons. (i.e. it's not legal to do so) Other manufacturers (such as Infiniti) allow video in the front as long as the car is in park and the parking brake is on. Not only did they implement a restriction even when it's not necessary, they outright told people a reason for it that wasn't true.

    - - - Updated - - -

    While some manufacturers want to switch it off if they don't detect hands on the wheel, Tesla should do the opposite. If they detect hands off the wheel, they should turn it on. They should call that a safety feature and tell you not to rely on it any more than you'd rely on active emergency braking to stop the car instead of using the brake pedal.
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  • Nov 6, 2015
    1208
    Agreed. It's appearing in slow motion on my computer. Even the noise is slower.
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  • Nov 6, 2015
    Haggy
    What happens when the car gets the speed limit wrong? It happens a fair amount. If the car misreads a "55 MPH -- Trucks" and tells me that I need to go 55 mph (60 with margin) then what should the car do when I'm going 70 in a 65 zone?

    Item two seems reasonable. I already expect that behavior, and if they tune it, so much the better. Let the warnings go away when the car is sure.

    If they integrate the seat weight, then what should they do? If a person is out of the seat and facing the wrong way, obviously disabling the system would make it worse. So designing it so that it can't be used under that circumstance won't work. Perhaps a flashing and beeping "sit your ass down" message while the car gradually slows down would be in order, but it's not something Tesla can simply decide on a whim. No matter what they do, it will have consequences. Since a driver has the option of taking over and using the pedals, it might be justifiable to do things that would be reasonable with a person in the seat who can take over.
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  • Nov 6, 2015
    bonnie
    As soon as the car is stopped, the driver is unable to use AP again. Poof. Gone.

    That's what I'd do. 'Abuse AP & lose it.' :)
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  • Nov 6, 2015
    Soolim
    In addition, report to authorities in real time so that a police officer can enforce the law, including impounding the car for a month?:mad:
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  • Nov 6, 2015
    bonnie
    Nah. Losing AP would be a huge punishment. Let's not get crazy here.

    :)
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  • Nov 6, 2015
    CanadaEV
    For sure it is slow motion, because it all happens a little fast to switch your focus back and forth between the AP view and the driver view. What I meant was that the two video streams were synchronized correctly in real time. After edited into one stream, it was slowed down for convenience.
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  • Nov 7, 2015
    Reeler
    Is this the AP video Elon was talking about?
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  • Nov 8, 2015
    neroden
    I tend to agree with Douglas Adams -- never underestimate the ingenuity of fools.

    I don't think there's any way to make this foolproof. They don't even have proper sensors to tell whether your hands are on the wheel. Detecting whether someone is looking forward is... error-prone, particularly with sunglasses. Et cetera.

    I think that YouTube video is the problem. Tesla should probably mail it to her insurance company and see what happens next. That might be the best move. :)
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  • Nov 9, 2015
    Soolim
    I don't think that will work for the community, because I don't think the insurance will be selective. Likely, it will be to the detriment of all. :eek:
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  • Nov 9, 2015
    TMS
    So here is Volvo's approach to autopilot (to be implemented sometime in 2016/2017): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K1mya0yRsU
    Their system will only allow AP on certain roads/highways, and as discussed earlier in this thread, this is a possible constraint that Tesla might be thinking about (personally, I don't like this nanny approach!). As you can see in the video, autopilot for Volvo means "hands free" driving, and this how it should be, at least on "approved" roads, otherwise, AP would be meaningless. Volvo by the way uses 4 cameras, 4 radars, 12 sonar sensors (like Tesla) and a laser scanner, but still doesn't offer more functions than Tesla's AP!
    They even advertise AP on their website as "Autonomous driving"! see here:
    volovap.JPG
    Tesla has done an incredible job with the current AP hardware, and will probably add even more features in the next software version. I personally support Elon in pushing the technology forward, but without putting too many constraints that render the system useless.
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  • Nov 9, 2015
    snellenr
    Speaking as a shareholder, I really hope that Tesla is capturing and downloading some telemetry (including video) any time a collision occurs.
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  • Nov 9, 2015
    sillydriver
    I think this is a very interesting point. However, because it is safer if the driver has to positively engage AP for normal automated driving, I think the 'safety feature' mode should turn on if hands are off the wheel for more than a second, but should go into 'hands on wheel' nag mode after 5 - 10 seconds, and then gradually slow and pull to the side with blinkers flashing if the nag is ignored. Positively-engaged normal AP mode should be without timed nags, the same as it is now.
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  • Nov 10, 2015
    m6bigdog
    I couldn't disagree more, Autopilot as implemented will not save lives if the driver expects more from the Autopilot system than it is capable of delivering.
    It is a tool, an aid, for the attentive driver not a replacement for your full attention; eyes on the road, hands on the wheel and foot positioned to brake!!

    That is, a camera and radar data fed into a computer running an artificial intelligence algorithm is no substitute for the full time human eyes and a brain assessing the near and far field activities to avoiding the perils that constantly crisscross in front of a vehicle traveling at speed.

    An inattentive driver with poor driving habits will always cause accidents!
    The same inattentive driver that uses Autopilot beyond its capability will continue to cause accidents!
    The only difference is whether the inattentive driver will blame Tesla Autopilot for the accident.

    So how would Autopilot save lives? I anticipate autopilot just gets the inattentive driver a few miles further down the road before the accident.

    I anticipate Tesla doesn't need the bad publicity, hits to their safety image, so drivers can blame Tesla for their inattentiveness and poor driving habits.

    So guess what, they will turn it off if Tesla owners can't adjust to the Autopilot concept and rules without causing Tesla a lot of grief.

    Even an airplane with autopilot in the hands of a instrument rated pilot will cause crashes that an attentive pilot knowledgeable in autopilot limitations will avoided.
    The difference is airplane pilots using autopilot are highly trained!!
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  • Nov 10, 2015
    Max*
    So you're arguing with me on a statement that you preface with if? OK. If the sun were closer, we'd all be dead. What's your point, again?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Care to show me where I said that it was a replacement for your full attention? Or even part of your attention? Show me just one time, in context, where I said that. Don't think you can.

    1. It's not AI. It's machine learning. There is a huge difference.
    2. A computer can and will react a faster than an attentive driver. It will also react MUCH faster than an inattentive driver. And if you're going to tell me that you are 100% attentive 100% of the time,I will call you a lair. Everyone's eyes wander for that split second to <fill in the blank> and guess what, that's exactly when accidents happen.

    No argument here.

    There you go again, adding stipulations to MY argument. I never said anything about using AP beyond it's capabilities.

    If I drive the Tesla at 155mph into a 90 degree turn, I will cause an accident! I'm using the car beyond it's capabilities. Let's pull Tesla's and all cars off the market. :huh:

    What's with you and inattentive driving?

    Because the car will drive safer, keep the center of the lane, not drift out of lane, not spend too much time looking out the window when you should be looking forward, it will keep a safe following distance, etc.

    Yes, you can attribute some of these to TACC (Level 1 autonomous), and some of these to AP (Level 2 autonomous), but they apply to both the attentive driver and inattentive driver. You could be the most attentive driver ever, but I guarantee you've swerved over a double solid line at least once in your life. Did it cause an accident? No, good, but with AP it'll be even less likely to cause an accident and kill someone.

    AP isn't a tool to let you drive exhausted. AP is a tool to let you concentrate on the bigger picture of the road, look around you at cars and their behavior, while your car keeps it's lane and a safe following distance from the car in front of it.

    I'm glad you know exactly what Tesla is thinking.

    Did you listen to the podcast I linked above? It discussed this exact situation.
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