Sep 13, 2012
contaygious Sorry couldn't find a recent answer. Do they always come on or just with big speed changes? Will it appear as if we are super brake pedal happy?
�
Sep 13, 2012
Doug_G They turn on when you reach a certain deceleration level (roughly half), and they also turn on immediately if you lift off the pedal quickly.
If you just lift a little they do not turn on.�
Sep 13, 2012
smorgasbord First, I wonder if the algorithm is the same as Roadster's.
Second, new Tesla drivers often look like they don't know what they want to do. The typical ICE style of lifting off the accelerator completely to coast is a hard habit to break, and on Roadster it causes super fast acceleration followed by brake lights. Even just in traffic on the freeway, some Roadster drivers will appear crazed.
With some practice, you learn not to lift off the accelerator completely. You learn to find that spot where the power output is zero, which is actual coasting. A side benefit of this is better efficiency.�
Sep 13, 2012
Raffy.Roma Nice....this system is really smart expecially when you think to the reduction of brake pads consumption.�
Sep 13, 2012
contaygious Ok thanks! I saw a test drive video a while back where the rep said it always comes in so wanted to double check. I'm one of those tip tronic drivers that usually downshifts to slow down instead if braking,�
Sep 13, 2012
Todd Burch My thinking was that any time the brake pedal's pressed, the lights come on (as in a conventional ICE vehicle). On the power pedal side, it's all accelerometer based. Is that correct?�
Sep 13, 2012
Doug_G It might be an accelerometer, but more likely they're using power from the motor (or a corresponding control system variable) to determine deceleration.
By the way when the creep starts to kick in the brake light goes out. If you want it to stay on for the last few feet of deceleration you should press the brake.�
Sep 13, 2012
Todd Burch I've heard a number of times from different Tesla employees that it uses an accelerometer for this...but as we know, that doesn't necessarily mean it's true.�
Sep 13, 2012
jerry33 We know that it's based on "braking force" and not just when you touch the brake pedal because it comes on when you use regenerative braking hard enough. I though that there was no question that it was using an accelerometer because that's what's been said for months. I suppose it could be done by monitoring the rate of deceleration though the speedometer mechanism but that seems complex compared to an accelerometer and more prone to problems.�
Sep 13, 2012
cinergi It has to be smarter than just accelerometer / deceleration: Imagine a steep downhill where there's significant regen required to keep the car at a constant speed. I'm pretty sure the brake lights are on in this condition.�
Sep 13, 2012
Todd Burch It's certainly feasible to set up that *either* deceleration above some threshold *or* use of the brake pedal lights the brake lights.
In that case, the car is pitched down and even though its speed may be constant, the gravity vector has enough forward component that the accelerometer would register an apparent braking force...lighting the brake lights.�
Sep 13, 2012
spatterso911 Heard the same thing.�
Sep 13, 2012
cinergi Curious to know if an accelerometer measures that? I figured it only would "see" vector changes. Still, how would it know the difference between 1 MPH downhill and 30 MPH downhill (the former would not light up the brakes)? I'm still convinced it's more complex than just an accelerometer (this is based on my observations in my Roadster; obviously may be different in Model S, but probably MORE advanced).�
Sep 13, 2012
Todd Burch Standing still on the earth we're at 1G of acceleration downward...the necessary centripetal acceleration to continue moving in an (approximate) circle as the earth rotates. So while we are apparently not accelerating from our own point of view, if viewed from space we in fact are. Accelerometers will measure that centripetal acceleration. (By the way, these are the kinds of initial thoughts that spurred Einstein's Theory of Relativity).
You're absolutely correct. Viewed from space, our vector is continuously changing in order to keep us on the surface of the earth, moving in an approximate circle.
How do you know it doesn't come on at 1 MPH downhill? Have you tried this in the Model S? If I'm in a conventional car going down a steep hill at 1 MPH (and remaining there) I must be on the brakes to prevent my car from speeding up.
You could very well be correct that it's more advanced...I guess that's what this thread is about!�
Sep 13, 2012
Timothy The way to get a feel for when the stop lights come on is to drive at night and practice decelerating at different rates. You can see the red glow reflection from the wind wing in your rear view mirror when the stop lights come on , and will learn how quickly you can decelerate without activating the stop lights. You can't tell this in the daytime, unfortunately, as the red stop light reflection isn't bright enough. I wish there were a light on the console so you could tell when the stop lights come on in the daytime.
Kind of like double clutching when you downshift a non syncro ICE. A skill you learn with practice. At least this one doesn't grind the gears!�
Sep 13, 2012
cinergi Not in the Model S -- just in the Roadster. And the Roadster's definitely not just measuring deceleration. It would be too inaccurate to do so. I assume (yes, I know -- assume) the Model S is at least as intelligent, if not more. Which means it's more than just the accelerometer. I think it should be enough to just measure regen capture in relation to your current speed.
I definitely take the "they said it has an accelerometer" with a grain of salt because a lot of long-time, well-known, respectable Tesla employees STILL say stuff like "This box up front in the Roadster is a 400 -> 12V converter" when it's in fact a controller (at least on the newer Roadsters).
Interesting way to think about it. So, on a horizontal surface, it would be indicated/measured as 1G (standard gravitational pull) "straight down" (towards the center of the earth)? In a parked car on a downward incline, the vector would be down-and-forward relative to the car. This would be the same for a car moving, but holding speed via regen. A car that was freely accelerating downward would have ... a vector that's perpendicular to the car? Do I have all this right? haha my brain hurts. :smile: I can at least now see the vector's still useful in my downward holding-speed regen scenario.�
Sep 13, 2012
aviators99 IMO, its actual performance is consistent with a simple accelerometer, as Tesla has stated in several interviews.�
Sep 13, 2012
strider Though note for some European countries there is a rule that says the brake lights may only be activated by the brake pedal so in those places the brake light on regen is disabled. You can search around the Roadster forum for more info.�
Sep 13, 2012
jkirkebo Why would you want them to be on ? In an ICE car I just downshift to the appropriate gear for the downhill, and the brake lights never come on unless it is so steep that I have to brake occasionally. If I have to, I brake hard and for a short time so the brakes can cool off in between. People who have their brake lights on all the time coming down a mountain pass come off like driving amateurs and their brakes end up smoking hot and sometimes failing.
I certainly don't want my brake lights being on when keeping constant speed on a steep downhill.�
Sep 14, 2012
Doug_G The Roadster regen is significantly stronger than downshifting an ICE. You'd have cars up your ass without the brake lights.�
Sep 14, 2012
markwj Note that in some countries, this feature (brake lights on during regen) is not enabled. Seems the local regs say that brake lights can only be activated when the driver presses the brake pedal.�
Sep 14, 2012
Robert.Boston So that other drivers realize that I'm slowing down and don't run into me.
Agreed; if the rationale for having brake lights is to warn other drivers of one's rapid deceleration, then there's no reason to have them on when you're travelling at a constant speed.�
Sep 14, 2012
Todd Burch Depends on whether they're trying to imitate the behavior of a conventional automatic drivetrain, I guess. Maybe it's all actually even simpler than all of the Tesla reps have indicated. Maybe they were "close" when they said it uses an accelerometer. It would probably be easiest to just look at rate of change of the speedometer and use that. If speed is decreasing at a rate above some threshold, the brake lights come on. (That in addition to the use of the brake pedal).
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Correct.
Correct.
In the extreme case (falling straight down with no air resistance) the accelerometer would register 0 Gs (think astronauts floating around in orbit, or a free-fall ride at a theme park). The reason astronauts float around in orbit is because they are travelling at an orbital speed such that they are continuously "falling" toward the earth (0 G environment)...but are traveling fast enough in a forward direction that this falling results in their orbital path. They are literally in continuous free fall around the earth. (Insert SpaceX reference here).
Regardless of how the car is moving (level on the ground, down a steep hill, or falling straight down) the gravity force itself of course doesn't change. But if the car is accelerating on a steep downward incline, it would register less acceleration (in the forward direction) than if it were traveling at constant speed (or sitting still).
The vector direction of the acceleration is always the same (toward the center of the earth)...but as the incline becomes steeper and steeper, due to the nose down pitch of the car that vector has an increasing forward component...until the car is facing straight down, in which the forward component IS the gravity vector.
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By the way, this is how the accelerometer in the iPhone/iPad determines screen orientation. Even though the iPad isn't moving (relative to us on the Earth), the accelerometer registers the 1G acceleration downward and therefore knows which way is "down".�
Sep 14, 2012
Raffy.Roma If the brake lights are driven by an accelerometer I think that there is no risk of having them on at constant speed even though the car is in a regeneration phase.
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In my opinion this is not fair. I hope that in Europe the brake lights will activate also during regen.�
Sep 14, 2012
aviators99 This would be bad, and less safe. Hopefully Tesla is trying to get a waiver (or modified legislation) for this.�
Sep 14, 2012
Raffy.Roma Good to know it�
Sep 14, 2012
aviators99 I said "hopefully", which means "I hope". Google translate: mi auguro che�
Sep 14, 2012
Raffy.Roma Thank you. In autumn Tesla will state the features of Model S for EU deliveries. I hope that the brake lights of Model S will work as in the USA.�
Sep 14, 2012
markwj There's a thread on this here somewhere.
For my first couple of months, the regen brake lights were off. It was very scary. Continually getting tailgated as I slowed down. Tesla, at owners urging, re-evaluated the regs here and determined it was ok to have regen brake lights turned on here. It is just a (protected) software setting. I'm guessing UK is where this came from, as our regs here are based on UK, but not sure.�
Sep 15, 2012
Raffy.Roma This is exactly what I wanted to know. So it's only a matter of software. Good to know it.�
Sep 15, 2012
goyogi It would be simple to add a little software feature to add to one of the displays to let you know the brake lights are on. Alternatively it would be easy to program in software to regen the max possible without the brake lights coming on. My Volt regens on the go pedal but the brake lights don't come on. It's not as aggressive as the S and I don't think the S is that aggressive. I can live easily if the S slows down like the Volt. I barely touch the brake pedal under normal driving conditions in it as I plan ahead.�
Sep 17, 2012
olanmills I fail to see why you would need to see brake lights on a car going downhill, just because that's what normal ICE cars would do, even if they're going a steady speed or even actually positively accelerating.
I think it makes sense if the brake lights come on whenever you press the brake pedal or whenever the computer thinks it's necessary given the feedback from the accelerometer.
If you are going downhill at a steady speed, and you're not using the brakes, but the regen is holding you down from going faster, I don't think the brake lights should come on in this scenario. They should only come on when you're going downhill if you're actually slowing down, or if you are physically pushing the brake pedal.�
Sep 17, 2012
Raffy.Roma You are right. As far as I know this is exactly how it works for Model S now.�
Sep 17, 2012
cinergi It's not how it works in the Roadster. Would be good to verify in the Model S.
I think it's useful for them to show in this scenario. Not all cars coast the same way, and not everyone rides their brakes downhill. I'd rather have the indication. Really, just better safe than sorry. Without the lights, I'm not sure what's going on. With them on, I know what's going on, but I can make a choice about how to process that information.�
Sep 17, 2012
aviators99 I can't source it at the moment, but Tesla announced early on that the brake lights will work differently on the Model S than the Roadster. It's all about the gyroscope!�
Sep 19, 2012
Todd Burch With all this talk, we're glossing over why there's a need for an accelerometer at all. All of the vehicle speed information is digital already...why would an accelerometer be needed? I wonder why they couldn't just measure the change in the speedometer value over a brief time and use that as an accelerometer. That instantly eliminates a piece of hardware, drops cost, and is more reliable (both mechanically and because you don't have to worry about issues like going down a steep hill in which the forward component of the gravity vector needs to be subtracted out).
Am I missing something obvious? Obviously if your wheels are spinning this isn't an accurate technique, but with the Model S traction control, when are your wheels spinning?�
Sep 19, 2012
mnx If that brief time is say, 1/2 second then they'd be a 1/2 second lag on your bake lights turning on. It needs to be instantaneous.
�
Sep 19, 2012
jkirkebo I think it is unsafe for the car to light up the brake lights if all you are doing is holding steady speed downhill. If you then suddenly mash on the brakes, no additional lights are show to indicate you started to slow down, and you risk getting hit from behind.
I definately want my brake lights to only light up when I'm slowing down at a significant rate using regen or using the brake pedal.�
Sep 19, 2012
Todd Burch Agree...but it would be easy to check the acceleration every 100 ms, 50 ms, or even faster. Perhaps they don't want such a safety item to be based on software? (This reminds me of my initial concern over fly-by-wire technology, where flight control surfaces are controlled via wiring instead of a physical connection--until you really think about it and recognize that a physical connection is more unreliable).�
Sep 19, 2012
mnx Agree, I guess you could check the speed 100 times or more a second, a 10ms lag wouldn't cause an issue i wouldn't think... (especially since regen isn't that heavy on the Model S to begin with).�
Sep 19, 2012
Doug_G How is this different from an automatic ICE? Many drivers simply use the brakes to control their speed on a long downhill. Of course it's better to kick the transmission down but many drivers don't do that. So their brake lights are on for extended periods of time.�
Sep 19, 2012
jkirkebo Riding brakes is also unsafe. Done over a long time, the brakes will overheat and fade. We also have a VW TDI with the DSG gearbox, I always downshift on long downhills. If for example 3rd is a bit too high and 2nd is too low, I will let the car gain some speed in 3rd, then downshift to 2nd to bleed off some, then back to 3rd. If I'm braking (like before tights turns) it is hard and briefly.�
Sep 19, 2012
jerry33 Many drivers still believe in the myth that using lower gears will wear out either the transmission, the engine, or both. I always wonder why they aren't afraid to drive forward for fear of wearing out these parts. They always fall back on the "brakes are cheap to replace and designed to wear out" argument.�
Sep 19, 2012
contaygious So true. I know mechanics that don't like driving down big hills for fear of messing with their transmission. Most people don't even think to downshift and just brake all the time. Hopefully when everyone converts to EV then we will all regen!�
Sep 19, 2012
jerry33 One of the things driving a Land Rover Series III or earlier teaches you is "You don't use the brakes unless it's absolutely necessary". If you've ever watched the movie The Gods Must Be Crazy you'll learn that the screenwriters had first-hand familiarity with them.�
Sep 19, 2012
Doug_G :biggrin: "Don't worry! It'll come back!" "What???"�
Sep 19, 2012
jkirkebo I can say that this also holds true for a '87 VW Jetta 1.8�
Oct 31, 2012
wycolo > the second I take my foot off the accelerator and regen starts, the brake lights go on, even at high (coasting) speeds on the highway. I noticed cars behind me getting slightly annoyed, but I didn't mind because it keeps them from tailgating, I guess.
Another goofball who rides the brake pedal. I'm tempted to switch that wire over to the ambers. Assuming *that* wire can be isolated from the rest of the red feeds.
--�
Oct 31, 2012
sublimaze1 Does that get lessened if you decrease the setting on the regen? Or can you not?�
Oct 31, 2012
Zextraterrestrial Tesla really needs to lower the sensitivity of the regen/ make it adjustable. I find it unacceptable for the lights to come on under regen deceleration of the S, even full regen at slower speeds (which isn't that strong due to the cars weight IMO).�
Oct 31, 2012
aviators99 It is based on the Rearward G-force, so if it's done correctly, they should turn on at the same level as a normal car without regen when you use the brakes.�
Oct 31, 2012
hcsharp Much more complicated than that. The brake light actuator takes input from multiple sources including an accelerometer, speed, power or rate of regen and more. This has been discussed at length wrt the Roadster and the software was tweaked a few times.�
Oct 31, 2012
pete8314 This probably needs a new thread, so mods, feel free to move this...
I agree that having the brake lights come on as soon as you lift the accelerator pedal is weird. Nothing (well, almost nothing) annoys me more than people dabbing the brakes at speed when it's completely unnecessary.
Back in the day, I used to have an Astra GTE (manual/stick) that had an LCD dash (ooooh!), and a few lights to check various functions, including brake lights. The warning light would stay lit until the first brake, where it would acknowledge the lights were working, and extinguish. My big challenge every day was to get to the office without braking (~10 miles, light traffic), and I used to manage it every now and then. My point being, the regen is generally 'sold' as being a bit like a manual, when if you drop a gear, the car will slow. In that case, the brake lights don't come on, and people behind don't get stressed by it. I'm sure the logic for the Model S is complicated, and I've no idea how a Volt (for example) does it, but the current set up seems flawed. If I know that I 'brake' as soon as I lift off, I'll be overly-conscious of managing the accelerator pedal, which is a little distracting.
Of course, I say all of this based on this thread and a couple of test drives, so actual owners may have a more relevant point of view.�
Oct 31, 2012
weccman I would not do this. I love the regen and I'm glad that the drivers behind me are warned when my vehicle will start slowing down. In two weeks, I have gotten so used to simply squeezing off the accelerator slowly so that there is minimal "down-shifting-like" jerkiness that you get if you just treat the vehicle like an ICE car, that I normally don't even apply the brakes until we are going about 7 mph. If folks are unhappy that my brake lights come on when I start to decelerate, I don't care. We'd all be much worse off if they did not come on and they rear-ended my car not realizing I was slowing down.�
Oct 31, 2012
v12 to 12v You are right. This is unnerving. In some areas at night on a winding or hilly road, any hint of brake lights means immediate action is necessary. i.e. Both feet in, standing on the brake and clutch, because a solid immovable object or a massive animal is on the road. :scared:
I hope a sensitivity adjustment on the update list.�
Oct 31, 2012
weccman Maybe if people just backed off a bit and allowed a car length for every 10 mph as we were taught in driver training, this would not pose such a problem. Okay, I guess I am being unreasonable again. That won't happen. But it sure is a better option to not giving warning when the car will be slowing as it does during regen.�
Oct 31, 2012
v12 to 12v I guess the thinking is different when you don't have to deal with a herd of elk leaping onto a highway at night. Sometimes a huge following distance isn't enough on a rural highway and you have to trust the brake lights down the road to advise you of the situation. I always hang way, way back on those roads and I know that brake light without a turn signal means something is seriously wrong. I still have had some close calls, especially this time of year. I don't follow close enough for there to be a need for a brake light during regen.�
Oct 31, 2012
aviators99 In a "normal car", if you press the brake lightly, the brake light will come on. In the Model S, if you take your foot completely off the accelerator, the physics of the car are the same as if you touch the brake on a normal car, so therefore the brake lights come on. It's the same.�
Oct 31, 2012
strider The Roadster also takes into account the "rate" at which you let off the accelerator. If you jump off the pedal the brake lights will fire immediately as the assumption is that you want to slow quickly and others should be warned of this. If you ease off but still go to full regen the lights will not come on until you're near full regen (depending on the other factors like hcsharp noted). As you get used to the car you won't be jumping on and off the accelerator as quickly and this behavior will smooth out.
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You obviously have a higher class of idiot drivers where you live. Around here cars ride their brakes all the way down hills and brake before every curve in the road. This renders their brake lights useless for anyone behind them. I like that my Roadster lights the brake lights on regen as the car slows more quickly than downshifting my Corvette - some warning is required. I don't have my S yet so have to see if my thoughts change.�
Oct 31, 2012
Doug_G The Roadster doesn't turn on the brake lights unless you (a) go to about 1/2 regen power, or (b) lift off the pedal quickly. A light throttle lift doesn't do it. Can you check how much of a lift is required before the Model S lights up?
(Also probably this discussion should be broken out from the Delivery Update thread.)�
Oct 31, 2012
ohh In a normal car, if you use the gear-shift and hence the engine to make the car go somewhat slower, the break lights do not come on. I have not (yet) driven a Tesla, so I do not know this, but I have always compared taking your foot off the accellerator to what i described above; using the engine to slow down the car. Hence; IMO there is still not any use for the break lights to come on. Au contraire; I would find it disturbing.�
Oct 31, 2012
ElSupreme It is much like downshifting (a perfectly smooth engine speed matched one) with no throttle. It is much more severe that just letting off of the throttle.
Or just letting off the throttle while in 2nd gear, and driving 55mph.�
Oct 31, 2012
ohh Thanks ElSupreme - downshifting is the word I was looking for, and what I tried to compare to taking your foot off the accelerator.
MODS: I now see that this topic has been moved to another thread - please move my 2 posts.�
Oct 31, 2012
v12 to 12v That would drive me nuts!
A flash of brake lights hasn't saved me on a rural highway every time. One time I chose to disregard it. The brake light flash was very brief so I figured the vehicle way in front of me just turned off their cruise control or something as we started to decend down the other side of the pass. A few moments later I found myself airborne. Apparently it was a truck in front of me and he had just hit a black bear. He just kept going and didn't do anything to warn me. (We have idiots that are the inverse of yours, I suppose.) My car smelled soooo bad after that. I felt sorry for the service guy that got the job of cleaning and inspecting the underside of my car.
That experience just reinforced my aversion to turning off the cruise control by tapping the brake.
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Speak of the devil... A bear just wandered into my back yard and it isn't even garbage day.�
Oct 31, 2012
ChadS If it's the SAME bear, run!�
Oct 31, 2012
spatterso911 Hilarious that you allude to that on Halloween!!
�
Oct 31, 2012
jerry33 Except that everyone's car length is different and people can't judge how far 1960 inches is anyway. They now teach to use seconds: The car ahead passes some fixed mark and you count the seconds until you pass the same mark. Depending upon the school, some teach three and some teach four seconds.�
Oct 31, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Anything more than 2 sec doesn't last long as someone attempts to squeeze into the gap!�
Oct 31, 2012
AnOutsider I LOLd!�
Oct 31, 2012
ElSupreme Yeah around here you get about three or four tenths of a second headway if you are lucky.
�
Oct 31, 2012
v12 to 12v
This was a young one. The momma bear that moved into our neighborhood a couple years ago had two cubs this spring.
The old guy that was on the Olympic Peninsula was toast.�
Oct 31, 2012
Norbert If regen on the Model S is strong enough to replace braking (except when coming to a complete stop), then I don't see why lifting the foot off the accelerator (completely) should *not* trigger the brake lights that very second. It's not like they are for emergencies only. That's what that other button is for.�
Oct 31, 2012
Tesla229 After just a few days of driving my Model S, I find that I adapted fairly quickly to "managing" the accelerator pedal. You develop the feel fairly quickly, and after a while, it becomes second nature, and you'll find that you rarely have to actually use the brake pedal, except to avoid creep when at a stop. It's actually most efficient that way, since any application of the brakes during forward motion wastes energy that could be used for regen.�
Oct 31, 2012
v12 to 12v The eject button?�
Oct 31, 2012
Norbert The air suspension's "jump" button, for managing bears and other obstacles on the road...�
Oct 31, 2012
jerry33 That function saved me big-time once in the DS-21.�
Oct 31, 2012
dsmith2189 Just to point out... Technically regenerative braking IS braking (hence the name) and the brake lights indicate that.�
Oct 31, 2012
Timothy I just wish you could tell when the brake lights are on. At night, no problem as you can see the red glow. In the daytime, though, no way to tell that I have figured out. I widh there were a light on the dasy or something to let you know.
Does anyone know if the situation is similar on the Model S?�
Nov 1, 2012
v12 to 12v Ah yes, I remember Speed Racer had one of those. I didn't realize that the Model S was THAT sophisticated.
Now we only need the "Ohh, ohh, oohh!" and the "Oh, Speedie!" sound effects.�
Nov 1, 2012
Doug_G At night I can see the red glow in my rear view mirror on my Roadster (easy to see on my Fusion Red, also any light colored car). During the day there is no way to tell... but that said, I've had enough night driving experience to have a pretty good idea of when it turns on and when it does not.
It would be nice to have a little glowing "brake light" dot somewhere on the instrument cluster, though.�
Nov 1, 2012
Lloyd Toyota has done this a little different than Tesla. (Let me know if you get tired if me putting Rav stuff in the threads). When you let off the accelerator you get a modest amount of regen, either in the D, (lower regen) or B (more agressive regen with zero throttle). Then when you put on the brake, it adds more regen for about the first 3/4 inch or so of brake travel, and thats when the brake lights come on. Additional brake pressure then causes the calipers to engage. I like the way they did this! Very smooth, and well thought out.
I can get off the freeway, and using light brake pressure, allmost all of the braking is done by the regen. I can get out of the car and touch the rotors, and they are barely warm. Amazing!!�
Nov 1, 2012
Doug_G Personally I don't mind the Rav4 comparisons.
Most cars that have regen on the brake pedal do it the same way - partial on the accelerator and the rest on the brake. The problem has always been making the transition smooth, and it sounds like they have solved that.
On the other hand, I still prefer it on the accelerator. In traffic you are mostly doing one-foot driving, which is smooth and natural. They're just trying to make an EV feel like an ICE car. I can see the reasoning there but IMHO the EV experience is better.�
Nov 1, 2012
Babylonfive The comparisons are apt, and especially so because of how good a job Toyota has done on their version. +1�
Nov 1, 2012
v12 to 12v If there was selection that you could choose so that the regen "brake" light sensitivity is appropriate for the conditions you are operating under, that would be optimal.
Maybe a a city setting for dense traffic conditons, and an open highway setting for sparse traffic conditions would be adequate.
After all, these are some of the very first cars that will be able to travel beyond city limits.�
Nov 1, 2012
Doug_G I don't really see why I would ever prefer regen-on-brake, personally. I love the Roadster driving experience.�
Nov 1, 2012
Lloyd I've driven both, and I know what you mean, I like the Roadster experience, but this is better!! In the 'B' mode, you get the best of the Roadster experience, but more regen when you start braking. It would be too much to put it all on the accelerator. If you are in my area, stop by and you can take it for a spin!!�
Nov 1, 2012
v12 to 12v It definitely isn't just bear that we need to jump over.
Video: Why did the salmon cross the road? | Offbeat | Seattle News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | KOMO News�
Nov 1, 2012
FlasherZ There is another reason to keep brake lights from turning on during regen -- some police officers use your brake lights as a subconscious factor in determining whether he should come after you or not. If you come screaming toward the officer, see him, then lift from the accelerator as you pass him, you don't want the brake lights coming on. That gives him the idea that you knew you were speeding and were slowing down to become compliant. This is why the best of the best in ticket avoidance don't use their brakes (that nasty downward pitch of the nose also is a tell-tale) but rather use a bit of engine braking in the next lower gear while lifting from the accelerator.
While it will take years to retrain officers when it comes to brake-lights-on-regen, today we have to live within their tendencies.�
Nov 1, 2012
Norbert That means the lights come on depending on the power of regen used, whereas what I've heard from the Model S is that it measures actual slow down, and the lights come on only if slow down is more than a certain amount. To me that sounds like it makes more sense for cars following you..
Though perhaps you might want a different threshold depending on where it currently is, but the post we are responding to, didn't describe where the threshold is.�
Nov 1, 2012
ElSupreme Yeah that is what a parking brake is ... hmm!
My regular downshift 2 gears, and parking brake (if necessary) system is foiled!�
Nov 1, 2012
v12 to 12v I shift my transmission from Economy mode to Sport mode and that slows me right down.�
Nov 1, 2012
Timothy I agree 100%�
Nov 1, 2012
strider I would hate having a light on the dash to tell me when my brake lights are on. There's enough crap flying around and flashing at me while driving these days, I don't want to add anything else.
I've driven a Roadster for 2 years. My wife has followed me in her car. I've followed my wife driving the Roadster. No one has ever complained that the brake lights come on too often nor have I ever been rear-ended. The brake lights work - just let them do their thing and you concentrate on what's in front of you.�
Nov 1, 2012
Lloyd Exactly, you want a dark dash (no warning lights) unless there is something that needs your attention.�
Nov 2, 2012
Velo1 Well, this is where in an innovative car like the S there should be an option for the user to have a brake-light indicator or not. Just like user preferences for many other features on any computer, mobile devices, Tesla S Touchscreen, etc.
Incidentally, nobody has mentioned it or asked, but is their industry standards that have criteria for when brakes lights must come on, with any vehicle? Seems if there are, then that is what the S should follow. Maybe this question is too logical.:wink:�
Nov 2, 2012
ElSupreme I don't think so. I can downshift to 2nd and pull a parking brake and stop pretty quickly without lights kicking on.�
Nov 2, 2012
markb1 When I drove the Model S, I noticed that when there was an image of the car on the touch screen, the image mimicked the turn signals, but not the brake lights.
Edit: Now that I think about it, maybe it was just the headlights that were mimicked.�
Nov 2, 2012
Vger And that is why Tesla's solution of actually measuring the deceleration of the car is the better solution. If I just touch the brake pedal in an ICE car, I am actually giving a false alarm to the car behind me. When a Tesla's brake lights come on, it is because the car is actually decelerating, and hence becoming a potential hazard to the car following.�
Nov 2, 2012
markwj I think the issue is that this feature is controlled by each country's regulations, not driver preference.
Think about it for an ICE car - would it be ok to have a switch to control whether the brake lights come on or not? Or less extreme how far you have to depress the pedal before they come on? I think not - because this is a safety issue,
In at least one country the regulations state the brake lights can only come on when the brake pedal is depressed. Tesla has to disable the deceleration brake light switch to meet those regulations.�
Nov 2, 2012
brianman Would an indicator on the 17" be enough for your purposes, Velo1? If so, perhaps an app could be written at some point.�
Nov 2, 2012
Velo1 Absolutely. There are a lot of aftermarket app opportunities with this car. This is what makes it unique. ICE cars are relatively a fixed product with a few aftermarket upgrades, but the Model S is like owning an iPad or MacBook Pro where it is a dynamic prodcut (vehicle) with software and app updates, and add-os features or functions. Got to love it's long-term potential.�
Nov 2, 2012
brianman Good, that sounds like the way to make everybody happy (no dash distractions, but availability of the indicator).�
Nov 2, 2012
Velo1 OT: how does one become a Senior Member? Just curious.�
Nov 2, 2012
brianman Babble a lot, I think. (Number of posts.)�
Nov 2, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Or, get #cranky a lot
You can enter anything you want in Settings (top-right corner), Edit Profile, Custom User Title.�
Nov 5, 2012
Robert.Boston Email a scan of your AARP membership card to one of the mods.�
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