May 20, 2015
Jess I will begin by saying I've owned my Tesla almost 2 yrs now. I owned the stock, and have sung the praises of Tesla from day 1. As a matter of fact, I have sold a total of 6 new Teslas to friends and family in those 2 yrs. I have been a huge fan since before most people knew what Tesla was.
Today, I am pissed. I moved and had my HPWC reinstalled. It wouldn't work. So Tesla service came out. $1000 later, they charged me for a new HPWC. I think this is bull**** This HPWC was only a yr old because I think they came and changed a few months after I got my car because of heat issues. At any rate, something that is less than 2 yrs old should still work. Shame on you Tesla! Today, you lost a fan, supporter, and sales person. I also sold my stock.
For those new people considering buying one, don't forget to factor in the costs of replacing parts every couple of yrs I guess. I suppose the Elon vision of not making huge money off service has changed now that he needs funding for Gigfactory!�
May 20, 2015
ToddRLockwood Do you have the service plan?
A one-year warranty on parts is pretty typical in the industry.�
May 20, 2015
Zythryn I'm sorry that you ran into this and felt the need to vent.
Is there a two year warrantee on the HPWC? If so, you should pursue that.
If not, or if the breakage was not due to manufacturing, I'm not surprised they didn't cover it. As a stockholder myself I would be more ticked off if they started giving out free products.
If you wanted to vent, that's fine.
If you are looking for a solution, or discussion if others think this is justified, please share with us what happened to the HPWC.
Two, why did the replacement cost $1000? New HPWCs cost $750.
4 1/2 years of driving Teslas, we have had no out of pocket money for charge cables and units.�
May 20, 2015
skboston HWPC is covered under the car warranty for the first 4 years or 50k miles if it was purchased with the car.
I also agree with you about it's quality, it breaks far more often than people realize, mine was replaced right after one year and the new one appears it will need a replacement soon as the cable is starting to act weird when you plug it in the car.
I feel that parts like the on-board chargers and HWPC should be added to the 8 year warranty of the car as they are necessity in order the car to function properly, let alone that the HWPC is quite simply unit itself without many parts that can break easily.
Can you give us an idea what happened to your HWPC? IS the cost $1000 rather than $750, because of the extra electrician work?�
May 20, 2015
MorrisonHiker If the HPWC was purchased with the car, wouldn't it still be covered by the original 4 year warranty? If purchased separately (with a credit card), would your credit card cardmember benefits cover it? All of my credit cards double the original warranty on purchases.�
May 20, 2015
Racerx22b As others have said, the HPWC comes w a 4yr warranty IF purchased with your car build. I had my order altered just for this reason. I was going to just buy it separate but saw that the warranty was only 1yr when purchased a la carte.
I am so glad I setup my HPWC to just plug into my 14/50 outlet at 40amp instead of hard wiring for 80amp. I figured that if the HPWC ever broke I would have a backup by using the UMC and plugging it into the outlet.�
May 20, 2015
Rheazombi As someone without home charging, I find this statement a bit silly.�
May 20, 2015
skboston Why would it be silly, am I missing something?
Home charging is integral part and for example I wouldn't have bought the car if I couldn't charge it at home or had to rely on public chargers all the time, so yes for many if not most owners this is necessity.
I'm an owner for about 8 months now and have to say that replacement of a HWPC within 20k miles and 1 more soon shouldn't be normal so often and reading on the forums it appears it's not an isolated case.
My warranty will run out next year and if every year I have to spend $750 for a new one and hiring electrician to replace it kind of defeats the purpose of a low maintenance vehicle.
I'm well aware that there is a possibility for a HWPC to fail just as any other piece of electronics, however not so often and just as the drivetrain being covered for unlimited mileage, I consider UMC and HWPC an integral part of the car and should be covered as well.�
May 20, 2015
ItsNotAboutTheMoney Clipper Creek has a 3 year warranty on their EVSEs.
There's really no way they'd put a huge warranty on the UMC and HPWC because of the uncontrolled environment.
Tesla works on the cheap and deploys early so if you got something from them expect failures. They only have 3 years to change the culture before Model 3.�
May 20, 2015
mknox This applies to the original UMC that comes with the car as well. I'm on my third UMC, all replaced for free. Having said that, I'm a little distressed as how often it starts failing. Mine is carefully kept in my garage, and is not exposed to the elements at all. It seems to fail at the connector end that plugs into the car. At first, I will have to play around to get it to connect, it will get gradually worse over time, then just refuse to work at all.�
May 20, 2015
Alysashley79 You might not have home charging...BUT...you do have and or use a UMC (or maybe Jplug) regardless both the HPWC and the UMCs have a quite high failure rate. I've had 6 UMC's in my 18 months of ownership. And was told by two different service managers that the HPWC that they are no tougher or rugged than the UMC.�
May 20, 2015
Incredulocious Coincidentally, I just discovered yesterday that my UMC has failed and gone dead. (It's a unit modified to have a standard J1772 plug in place of the Tesla plug: the "JESLA" by QuickChargePower/Tony Williams. He's offered to take a look at it to see if it's repairable.)
Hearing how often these UMC's can fail, perhaps I'll go ahead and get some other manufacturer's wall unit and just keep the UMC for the rare need to carry it on trips where I'll need to use an outlet. An expensive backup-only EVSE though.
Anyway, color me disappointed to hear of (and this time encounter) another parts quality issue from Tesla. At least I haven't had to deal with the common need on our RAV4 EV's to replace the Tesla motor yet. (I'm at 16K miles.). As a fan and investor, here's wishing once again that Tesla can correct the sources of these reliability issues soon! And I note again that we LEAF owners did/do not generally have such issues. High reliability and low maintenance can be the norm, including with our Nissan-supplied Panasonic-made EVSE's. (Which were also modified by another active third-party in the EV community to make them plug universal � who has commented on how exceptionally well built they are, particularly when compared for example to those provided with GM's Volt.)�
May 20, 2015
techmaven How do you know if the de-installation, move, and re-install didn't damage the unit?
Now you have a both the new HPWC and the old one? I'm wondering if the damaged one has value. It might be easily fixable. The HPWC itself is $750, so did Tesla change you $250 for the service call, or did an electrician?�
May 20, 2015
efusco This is the sort of question I have.
While I can absolutely relate to the frustration of having an unexpected $1000 expense, it seems to me there are multiple unanswered questions here and while being frustrated may be a natural reaction, it does not mean that the charge wasn't reasonable and legitimate.
1)Who did the de-install? Did that person cause damage? If so, then that's the person you need to go after for reimbursement, particularly if it is a licensed electrician.
2)Who did the new install? Did that person do something wrong and cause damage and were they licensed...see above...
3)Was it damaged in transport--did you use a moving company who failed to take due care and caused the damage?
This doesn't sound likely to be a manufacturing defect or it would have failed prior to the move or would have worked after the move and then failed. Thus, it would not be a warranty issue, IMO.
There are very few facts given here from which any of us can draw reasonable conclusions. But I would conclude that unless this was clearly an issue that is/would be covered under warranty that the OP's reaction is a bit over the top.�
May 20, 2015
AmpedRealtor My HPWC was ordered with the car on June of 2013, and it was selected as an option on the order page. Yet my HPWC was billed to my credit card and was not included in the total purchase price of the vehicle. The documentation that came with the HPWC states a 1 year warranty. Am I covered by the 1 year warranty or the 4 year warranty?�
May 20, 2015
patrick40363 You don't have to buy a Tesla HPWC. There are other companies out there.I have a 40 amp Leviton that I charge my Tesla with. It also is nice to have if we add another vehicle that uses J1772 specs. The best part is the unit is on a slide out bracket and just plugs in.I will take it with me if I move.Very reliable unit that charged my Volt for 2 1/2 years before my Tesla arrived.�
May 20, 2015
Rheazombi I get what you're saying, but I've used the UMC maybe 3 times in 9 months? It was super helpful in those 3 scenarios tho. I just found the statement implying the car was basically useless without the HPWC and thus Tesla should have an EIGHT YEAR warranty on it absurd. It's not a Jansport backpack, guys.�
May 20, 2015
pimp-boy Even though it was purchased with the car, Tesla only warranties it for 1 year unfortunately. Mine had issues 2 weeks before the 1 year mark of purchasing the car, they stated that warranty is only covered for 1 year. Something like that shouldn't break in a short amount of time especially if you are heavily dependent on it. It would be nice to have the warranty for 4 yrs 50k miles too.
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May 20, 2015
BoldSharpe I had this exact discussion about the HPWC warranty when purchasing my car and actually took a screenshot from Tesla's website in January as the sales manager at the Chicago store wasn't familiar with the warranty details.
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May 20, 2015
efusco Good post, that is interesting and I'm glad you have that screen shot.
In the case of the OP, however, we still have no idea at all whether his was a defect or damaged, or if it was purchased with the car or otherwise. There enlies the key to the whole issue.�
May 20, 2015
Jess I had a certified electrician take it from my old location & install in new. It was working fine at old location. He could not get it to work upon installation. So Tesla sent out service ranger who installed new one for & $750, plus labor cost of $335. I paid the electrician to uninstall & reinstall as well.
I'm not merely venting. It is not unreasonable to expect people who own Teslas to move locations within the lifetime of the car. I feel a HPWC should last longer than a year. Tesla is all about qaulity, bragging they don't wat to make money off service, like traditional car companies. Then your quality of parts should reflect that. I feel the chargers are an extension of the car since most of us daily commuters need the HPWC to get from A to B.�
May 20, 2015
efusco Did you purchase with the car?
Did Tesla tell you what was wrong with the charger that caused it to fail?
And whether they're designed to last more than a year or not seems somewhat irrelevant. If you were covered under the one year warranty, that would extend only from date of purchase of the original, not the replacement (replacements are usually warrantied only 30-90 days).�
May 20, 2015
omarsultan Is that to code--I thought the HPWC had to be hard-wired?
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May 20, 2015
Jess I purchased it with the car.�
May 20, 2015
dhanson865 has to be hard wired if operating above 50 amps as there is not common 70 amp, 80 amp, or 90 amp wall socket. If you are willing to limit it to 50 amps you can use a 14-60 socket and if you limit it to 40 amps you can use a 14-50 socket.�
May 20, 2015
Thud If you bought it with Amex, you probably have an additional year of warranty (by Amex). Other credit cards might have the same benefit.�
May 20, 2015
Zythryn Thanks.
And the question about what was wrong with the original?�
May 20, 2015
Thud Meaning it was included in your final purchase price of your car?�
May 20, 2015
Jess The service tech said he didn't know why it stopped working. He confirmed wiring was correct by electrician and that the problem was the wall connector. Possibly something in the circuit board, but there were no parts. Getting new HPWC was only choice.
- - - Updated - - -
Thanks everyone. I contacted my Tesla service dept. about the 4 yr warranty and they said they would investigate. I didn't purchase with a credit card separately so that extended cc coverage won't apply, but I really appreciate the idea. I forgot cc companies do that.�
May 20, 2015
efusco It sounds like this should be covered under the 4 year warranty to me, assuming all you say is accurate. I think that working through the right channels will get this worked out to your satisfaction...I certainly hope so.�
May 20, 2015
ecarfan In November 2013, just before taking delivery of my S, I had the HPWC hard wired into a 100A circuit. At the same time I had a new 240V/40A NEMA 14-50 installed as a back up against the HPWC failing.
In mid 2014 Tesla replaced the HPWC cable because it failed. They came to my house late on the same day I called about the problem.
Have yet to use my NEMA 14-50 but I like having it there.�
May 20, 2015
ecarfan So, in your OP you said you have owned your S for "almost two years now". It seems to me that since you purchased the HPWC "with the car" it should be covered by the same 4-year / 50,000 mile warranty as the car has.
How many miles on your car?
Maybe your Service Center simply does not understand that your HPWC is still under warranty, assuming your mileage is less than 50K.
I think if you pursue this with Tesla and press the issue up the chain of command they will make it right.�
May 20, 2015
evme I don't see any reason to accuse Tesla on trying to make a profit off the wall connector. Is there any other wall connector that can deliver 80A for even 2X the price? A Clipper Creek connector 80A costs $2200.
It would not be uncommon for Tesla to run into quality issues here and there as their goal is to lower prices while pushing the limit. As they sort through suppliers, quality issues will happen. Now obviously Tesla needs to handle these issues more appropriately. Such as maybe take people's old connector for refurbishment and offer a discount on a new one or etc.
Though speaking of the 4 year warranty with the car or 1 year warranty over the counter and the 80A stuff. I wonder if Tesla's decision to not bundle the connector with the car and make the 80A purchase optional have something to do with this.�
May 20, 2015
linkster I have only performed an 'install' of my HPWC. I was wondering if one needs to (again) follow the proper dip switch "test" and "reset" procedures for proper booting upon a removal/re-install installation.
bluetinc? Cott?�
May 20, 2015
Racerx22b I just bought a standard oven range plug at Home Depot and did the wiring inside the HPWC myself then set the dip switches to 40amps. Easy Peasy! I liked the look of the HPWC and got the impression from some veteran posters on this forum that the HPWC was "beefier" than the UMC. Considering that and the fact that I had a built in backup by having the option of using the UMC it seemed like a no brainer. My daily mileage requirements don't require 80amp charging so that wasn't an issue. I think it's to code. Don't really care, it works.
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May 20, 2015
scruzloose33 To clarify earlier posts, it is no longer possible to buy the HPWC with the car, right? I am awaiting the delivery of my 85D, but it is a little disheartening to hear all these stories of HPWC failures. A 4-year warranty would be great, but I am likely stuck with the 1-year warranty since the only option is to buy it separately.�
May 20, 2015
FlasherZ Technically, it's unclear whether you could consider it violating code or not. Tesla's instructions make reference to it being hardwired, and art 110 requires you follow manufacturer's instructions. However, call it a disconnect and you're good.
(Seriously, I don't think you'd get an inspector to reject it. Even then, call it an appliance.)�
May 20, 2015
brucet999 Looks like you have backup transportation there too, for a worst-case situation, of course.
�
May 20, 2015
radrick Would a surge protector at the 240 volt outlet help to prolong the life of the UMC or HPWC ?�
May 20, 2015
ohmman I had an issue with my HPWC where it would flick the charge relay on the car when I plugged it in (back and forth, not just the engaging "clunk", but "clunk-clunk-clunk..."), and I bought mine with a CC outside of the car purchase. I decided the issue was the car's charge port based on a thread I posted on this forum, so I figured I'd wait until my one year anniversary. See where this is going?
My charge handle was bad. The HPWC was the issue, not my car. Thankfully, Tesla checked their logs and saw issues charging at home starting from the time I got the HPWC. They were kind enough to replace the cable on it with a ranger visit, all under warranty/goodwill.
Good luck to OP with their issue.�
May 20, 2015
omarsultan Thanks to everyone for the clarification on "plug-in" HPWCs - may have to consider that approach for our MX.
O�
May 21, 2015
mknox My only concern there is that oven 14-50 outlets are often wired with 40 amp breakers and #8 wire. That cord you purchased might have #8 conductors when you should really use #6 for a 40 amp continuous load. I'm assuming your 14-50 outlet has been wired with a 50 amp breaker and #6 wire.�
May 21, 2015
Brass Guy Regarding the warranty, my paperwork from 2013 is clear that the UMC is covered under its own warranty which is one year. I think Tesla is replacing them under the new car warranty for those of us that purchased before the change. HPWC may be the same.
It does seem that they don't want cover the HPWCs that long anymore since the order change.�
May 21, 2015
FlasherZ Just to be clear - it's perfectly legal and safe to run #8 in conduit at 40A charging (50A required circuit rating) and I wouldn't blink an eye if it were wired as such for permanent installs. If it's NM cable (Romex), it must be #6.
When you are talking flexible cord, there's a different table you have to use. NEC uses table 400.5, which requires #6 flexible cord for 55A with 2 current carrying conductors.�
May 22, 2015
mknox Right. Took a second look at the picture and it does show the 14-15 connected via conduit. It was really that stove cord I was concerned about. Products like these suggest they're rated for a 40 amp stove although don't show the conductor size. I've seen other stove cords (again, without specs) that say they're for 50 amp stoves and both have 14-50 plugs.�
May 28, 2015
Jess Tesla service said that even though I purchased the HPWC with the car, it is an accessory & has 1 yr warranty. Does anyone have documentation saying otherwise? I bought the car in July 2013.�
May 28, 2015
breser I never really understood how Tesla could deal with the warranty on the HPWC as being part of the car warranty. I bought my HPWC with my first car. I've sold that back to Tesla before I got my 85D. So how do we keep track of the mileage for the warranty? Is the warranty for the HPWC dependent on how many miles the new owner puts on the car?�
May 28, 2015
ohmman I just searched - I swear the Tesla Gear store showed the warranty differentiation between the two order types, but I don't see that anymore. My SC recently verified that the warranty is 4 years when bought with the car. Who is telling you this isn't the case? Do you have documentation showing that you purchased it tied to your VIN and not with a CC separately?�
May 28, 2015
Jess I thought so too. I have proof I bought it w/the car, but my SC guy said it's only 1 yr warranty. Can you get documentation from your SC?�
May 28, 2015
Jess Me again! I called Tesla Headquarters & they confirmed that back when I bought it, it WAS & IS covered under the 4 yr warranty. They said that policy is different now, but for early adopters, the warranty was different. So he will be calling my SC to inform them. Thanks everyone for the ideas & help.�
May 28, 2015
ohmman Great news, and I'm glad they made good on it. Good luck with the repair.�
May 28, 2015
AmpedRealtor That's awesome! I fall into the same category, so if I get push back I'll know what to do. Although my service center has never declined anything, they always bend over backwards to please.�
May 28, 2015
mibaro2 Nice to hear the problem has been solved.
Good to hear tesla is keeping its promises.�
May 28, 2015
Jess Tesla still continues to be a great company. Despite the initial trouble, they made good on their warranty & I am very pleased!�
Jul 24, 2015
S85D I just got my car on June 2, 2015 so I am reading the messages in TMC. I agree with earlier posts that it looks like the black wire in the HWPC was not tight enough and cause excess amps that caused the charger to fail.
Since I was worried about the HWPC failing and me not being able to charge my S85D, I installed a 14-50 receptacle with a 50 amp breaker along with the 100 amp breaker to handle the HWPC.
I just ordered the 2nd charger so I will be able to use 80 amps to charge my MS.
My HWPC in in the garage and I had thought about adding (drilling) some holes) on the top sides and the bottom of the charger to allow the heat to escape. I decided to not do that at least until the warranty expires in case the charger fails. Has anyone else considered doing this?�
Jul 24, 2015
Ingineer I haven't had my car long, but am on my second HPWC. The first one installed fine and worked on all settings EXCEPT 80A. On 80A it would generate 8 red flashes when connected to the car or when using an external J1772 tester. On all other settings it worked fine. My analysis of the failure was too much capacitance in the pilot line and too high of impedance in the pilot drive circuit such that on the very narrow pulse width for the 80A pilot, the EVSE couldn't reliably detect the resistance due to rounding of the square wave.
Tesla promptly sent me a new one, which didn't have the same issue, so I'm happy with service. However the HPWC in my opinion, and I have specific experience designing EV charging systems, is not engineered as well as I think it should be.
For starters, the wiring, fuses and mechanical connections for the 80A current are barely adequate, and embody a lot of resistive losses, so this is why there is a lot of heat generated. Also, the contactor has a 240VDC coil, but Tesla took no steps to reduce coil current after pull in which is customarily done on other large contactors. In fact, the manufacturer of the ones they use in the battery pack sells models with built-in "economizer" circuits, here is the circuit that is built in that performs this function:
Doesn't cost much to add, and drastically reduces the heat in the contactor. What's more, is Tesla could have added the economizer function in the HPWC's firmware without the need to add any circuitry! It's often used in EV's to reduce the overhead so you save precious watt-hours instead of wasting them as heat in your coil. In the HPWC, this isn't as important, but the heat component is. Add the heat from both the resistance losses in the high-current path and the coil and you have one hot unit! This thermal cycling is not good for reliability and can hasten oxidation and the loosening of mechanical connections, which causes the problem to spiral out of control and then something burns out. This has happened to many HPWC users!
When I purchased my MS, I tried to purchase the HPWC with the car, and was told by my adviser to just login to my Tesla and order it on the web site. Problem is, they explicitly state "The standard warranty for the Wall Connector is 1 year for over the counter and aftermarket online purchases." There was no option for me to do anything else.
I love my MS, but I must say this is a chicken-**** move on Tesla's part. Clearly they are having a lot of warranty claims. It's also clear to even a layman that the unit gets overly hot, and most people know that heat is the enemy of electronics. I could care less about the warranty if it was superbly engineered, or at least engineered to standard automotive specs for a high-current appliance that is expected to be used daily. In my professional opinion it is not.
My solution is to modify (band-aid) the system as well as practical to ensure it is reliable. There's almost as nothing as frustrating as unreliable transportation, and the HPWC is an integral part of the car's operation.
There's a lot at risk to Tesla right now at this phase in their growth. You wouldn't think they'd be willing to gamble with something as critical and so full of latent liability as a high-power electrical appliance.�
Jul 24, 2015
qwk It is no secret that Tesla's HPWC, and UMC are not engineered well enough to run at their full capacity, 20kw, amd 10kw, respectively. I have said this from the very beginning. You would think that such a crucial part of the cars functionality would be more reliable, and better engineered, but it's not. I have yet to have a UMC last a year(have been through 7 or 8). I don't see that changing, because the fixes have been patches that don't fully address the real issues. It's really painful and sad to watch.�
Jul 24, 2015
rxlawdude Evan, I remember you from the early 2nd gen Prius days! Glad to be joining the Tesla community now.�
Jul 24, 2015
Ingineer Agreed. I don't want to drag this too far off topic, but Tesla really needs to step up, and soon, on these issues if they want to be better than other automakers and continue to hold on to their world-class image.
The 3 biggest things making me uneasy about my MS (and Tesla) are, in order:
1. The drive unit problems. What's going to happen after the warranty?
2. Tesla's failure to give owners basic service info and make parts available for reasonable prices (or at all)!
3. The 12V "Vampire" fiasco. Again, Am I to buy a 12V battery every 18 months and pay for all that wasted electricity?
I have a lot more than those, but those are the biggies. I'll stop now before I get too far OT.�
Jul 24, 2015
qwk 1. The Drive Unit problems are probably not that big of a worry, as most of the issues are just noisy DU's due to very wide manufacturing and assembly tolerances. The drive units are also plentiful and cheap used, because Tesla is hostile to owners of salvage(and non-salvage for that matter) cars.
2. Working on the Model S is pretty easy for people experienced in that field. The big snag is getting parts, and access to firmware/diagnostic menu. This will change in time, as I can't see this monopoly lasting long.
3. The vampire load is due to connectivity/BMS. It doesn't have to be that way(Rav4 EV isn't), but it's a decision Tesla has made most likely due to information gathering(the car uploads the logs every couple of weeks).�
Jul 24, 2015
Ingineer These are worries because to me the future is unknown and they are unsolved.
Noise? I don't know, when I read the reports I see a lot of dead drives with cars needing towing. Noise is unacceptable too in any event. I can understand a 250k mile unit maybe being a little noisy, but the expectation is that this just shouldn't happen. Elon has thrown around his "Million mile" drivetrain thing more than once, and most recently during the Ludicrous announcement, I might add. Drive unit failures for other EV makes don't seem to be statistically relevant. (except for those w/ Tesla DT's!) Even on systems as complex as the Prius and the Volt with all the extra mechanical systems, they seem solid.
Yes, I've been able to get into my car easily. It's built using methods common to other cars. But ALL those other cars also have manuals! How do you know it will change in time? Yes, the monopoly could even end with Tesla going under, then still no parts! Not a comfort to me!
I know exactly what's causing the Vampire load, and it isn't the logging. That's done by a separate system (The Gateway). The RAV4 EV has almost the same gateway and almost identical BMS. What it doesn't have is the big touchscreen that is kept constantly powered to some degree all the time. Tablets using the Tegra3 can idle on tiny internal Lithium-Polymer cells, why can't Tesla's? (And I know the answer to this too, which is why I'm worried)
Don't take this as Tesla bashing. I support Tesla fully, but there are definitely areas needing improvements!�
Jul 25, 2015
omarsultan I rarely use my UMC, but I do use my HPWC every day, running at 80A for the last two years with no issues, so that statement seems awfully broad.
- - - Updated - - -
Also seems a bit broad--it seems there are very few cases of actual drive unit failures, and if a Tesla needs towing, its more likely because the 12V battery dies. I have had a 12V go south on me, but the car was kind enough to warn me a few days ahead of time and a ranger showed up to do a swap with no drama. Since almost all cars are still under warranty, I am not sure you will see Tesla devote resources to building out a "parts department" or addressing the 12V issue for a while. On a happy note, as has been posted elsewhere on this site, the the price of parts seems to be coming down significantly.�
Jul 25, 2015
AmpedRealtor Well don't hold back now! What is your answer to the above and why are you worried?�
Jul 25, 2015
Ingineer Just because it hasn't failed yet doesn't mean it's well engineered. Look a the loss alone. The extra money you are paying to your utility company to add heat to the garage could have been spent on better engineering. You are also here in NorCal where extra heat is maybe even welcome. Checkout the guys with HPWC's in Arizona or Texas and ask them if they can even touch the thing on the outside after an 80A session. Imagine how hot the inside is!
Bread is that neither of the things should be happening in cars this young in statistically significant numbers! If they were properly constructed to even any other major automakers standard, this would not be happening. I expect my 12v battery to go like clockwork in about 16 months, as it's being abused after all. I assume they are going to fix this at some point in software to reduce the standby load. If they don't, they will probably get nailed with a class-action and it will cost them way more than hiring more engineers to fix the problem in the first place. If my DU goes, I'm going to be livid. What's more, it worries me that it may happen at an inopportune time, which isn't a good feeling to have in the back of your mind. Mind you, I *love* my Model S, It's the best car I've ever owned. I just want it to be even better; I want Tesla to be world-class and stay world-class so the can fulfill their mission and I can buy more cars from them in the future. Even GM can build an EV that doesn't lose it's gearbox or inverter this often. I don't want Tesla to just catch up to GM's quality, I want it to surpass Toyota's! The cool thing is that they are almost there, and building en EV is overall way less complex mechanically. Let alone the ICE, have you ever taken an automatic transmission apart? Why after ~3 years are Tesla's simple one speed gear reduction units still wearing out?
Elon is right, with modern techniques, it should be possible to build an EV DU that does a million miles without incident. They've replaced enough DU's now to be able to perform proper failure mode analysis on the system. This should have been enough time to enable them to put the changes into production that fix the problem once and for all. I waited a long time to get my MS, one reason was because I thought by now these issues would be dead and buried. Since I've got my MS, I've counted 8 DU failures reported here on cars with under 2500 miles. For every report here that we hear about, There's probably at least 4x that we don't. Only a small percentage of MS owners participate here. Broad enough?�
Jul 25, 2015
AmpedRealtor With respect, I've had only two issues with my HPWC and each time it was the same problem - the button on the handle/nozzle was activating on its own, thereby disconnecting my car. My 2nd replacement was a "C" revision of that part which had a new button design. Since then, I've had no issues with my HPWC at 80A other than heat. My heat issues are particular to where I live. During the summer months, when it is above 105 most days and over 110 on some days, it is difficult to hold the handle due to heat after charging at 80A for some time. Heat is additive. During the fall and spring, when temps are in the 80s, I have no heat issues with the HPWC. It's still quite warm, but nowhere near as hot as it gets in the summer.�
Jul 25, 2015
Ingineer The center display (MCU in Tesla's parlance) is an egregious offender. I haven't yet had the time to properly instrument my car, but a few simple experiments have yielded enough data to convince me of this.
So the only logical conclusion I can make is:
1. Tesla engineering is stretched to the limits and wants to fix this issue, but doesn't have the resources.
-or-
2. Tesla management doesn't care about this issue, so hasn't directed any engineering resources at the problem.
Question is, are they going to do it before everyone's 4-year warranty runs out? Little things like this, and especially the DU problem, could be the death by a thousand cuts of Tesla. You know some of the owners out there with 3 or more DU failures are pissed. What happens if someone brings a class action? Something like that could really take a hit on sales and the stock value. It's simple; I want Tesla to fulfill it's mission, and I see these issues as dangerous to that mission.�
Jul 25, 2015
AmpedRealtor Thank you for providing the above, useful information. This gives me hope that it is a solvable problem, it just needs to be taken seriously. I would encourage folks to ask Tesla to tame the vampire:
Contact | Tesla Motors�
Jul 25, 2015
Ingineer My point is that there shouldn't be that much heat in the first place. I would have paid 2X the cost of the HPWC to get it with more copper and better engineering. The lack of coil power management in the firmware is seriously novice. I'd fix this for Tesla for free. (and in fact, I already have in my unit) I spent less than a day with my unit, and I've improved the efficiency by around 40%. Note that when it's on their dime, (superchargers) they are more careful about this.�
Jul 25, 2015
omarsultan Going to respectfully disagree with you here. Just because its warm (hot, whatever) does not mean its poorly engineered. As an engineer you know every project has a design envelope that involves things like costs, duty cycle, etc and engineering beyond the envelope is not always desirable--for instance, it may add unnecessary cost or provide unneeded longevity (for example, I don't need an iPhone designed to last 10 years as it will be technically obsolete long before that).
Remember, the original price on the HPWC was $1,200 plus another $1,500 for dual chargers, so I am sure value engineering was a concern--while you might be willing to pay another $1,200 I am not sure how many other folks will to d that as long the the HPWC operates as designed. Having said that, I would fully expect HPWC 2.0 to be improved on a number of fronts as Tesla now has a few years of operational data under its collective belt.
BTW, I live in the part of NorCal that regularly sees triple digit temps in the summer, so those guys and gals in AZ and TX got nothing on me.�
Jul 25, 2015
ohmman Having moved from Texas to NorCal, I can tell you that triple digits here doesn't generally equal triple digits there. Mainly, my garage there stayed in the triple digits at night, despite being ventilated. Depending on where you live in NorCal, you are less likely to see midnight temperatures in the mid-90s than in Texas, which is the summertime norm.�
Jul 25, 2015
Ingineer That's fine. Yes I understand the cost issue, but some of it, such as the lack of coil power control would not have added any hardware costs. Maybe a few embedded programming man-hours. What's the excuse for leaving the coil at full power for no good reason?�
Jul 26, 2015
omarsultan I'll bow down to your EE guru-ness on this, not my area of expertise. On the "a few embedded programming man-hours", my experience is it never ends up being just a few hours.
Back in the day, I would often have customers tell me: "design a network that will never go down". Inevitably, after seeing the price tag of that kind of design, they would come back and ask what they could accomplish for half that amount of money--and these were Fortune 500 companies which presumably could make the investments if they could justify them. I used to warn my new-hired engineers that customers will ask for unicorn and are only prepared to pay for a plough horse, so show them the former (since its fund to design unicorns) and deliver the latter (since I actually find that more of a challenge).�
Jul 26, 2015
Ingineer PWM on one 1 pin of a micro takes me about 5 minutes. Add in a few hours for testing with the hardware and prove-out. The firmware in an EVSE is really simple, there are only a few states, and only a few inputs.
Also note that according to the sticker on my unit, looks like they recently released revision "E". The ones many people are still getting are "D". This means they have at least done another round of engineering review. Why no coil PWM?�
Jul 26, 2015
sorka Nobody will have to worry about 1 until their MS is 8 years old.
I too worry about #2.
I've come to just realize that #3 is probably a fact of life. Fortunately, the accessory battery is an off the shelf unit even if it's rare and can be installed by a DIY although it's not as trivial a regular car battery. But it doesn't look any more difficult than doing a Prius.
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Can you clarify what you mean by this exactly?�
Jul 26, 2015
Arvind Originally Posted by Ingineer
I spent less than a day with my unit, and I've improved the efficiency by around 40%.
---------
Is there a third party solution for a 240 v 40 amp charger that is more efficient and reliable that can be used on a Tesla or does their proprietary socket preclude that?�
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Jul 26, 2015
DoctorJJ Would you be willing to start a thread about how you improved the efficiency of your HPWC? Thanks.�
Jul 26, 2015
Canuck There's many EVSE makers. Clipper Creek makes good ones. But you have to use the J1772 adapter and you can't pop the charge port door open with the plug, like you can with a UMC or HPWC. Plus, with the new low price of the HPWC it's really the best solution out there for a Tesla.�
Jul 26, 2015
breser Except for 40 and 60 owners who's warranty isn't unlimited miles. I'd guess there are cars that are fully out of warranty already. Maybe not very many but some.�
Jul 27, 2015
mknox I currently have my HPWC connected temporarily to a 20 amp circuit (charging the car at 16 amps). I am surprised at how warm it gets. Not hot, but very warm when I put my hand on the chrome cover. It seems warmer at the top. There is even a bit of warmth on the cable as it comes out the bottom, but quickly cools down as I slide my hand along it further away from the HPWC. And this is only at 16 amps.�
Jul 27, 2015
mknox I think the risk of dust and debris getting in outweighs any advantage of letting heat out. Further, I think that heat from the HPWC is dissipated by conduction, not convection anyway.�
Jul 27, 2015
ohmman If so, I suppose one (Tesla?) could fashion some sort of heat sink to aid in dissipation, if indeed the heat is detrimental to the lifespan on the unit.
Also, count me in as another user interested in Ingineer's 40% solution. I'm not seeing a 40% loss (more like 16% when comparing energy expended to energy delivered), but I'm assuming he means something different by that efficiency number. Definitely interested in slimming any losses en route to the car.�
Jul 27, 2015
AmpedRealtor +1!�
Jul 27, 2015
Ingineer Let me think about it. I already had my first HPWC essentially be broken right out of the box. I'm hesitant to "void my warranty" (and yours!) before my year is up.
Adding heat sinks and turning the housing into Swiss cheese is not a good idea. The right thing to do is fix the problems that are causing the heat in the first place! You can't fix all, such as the #6 AWG charge cable, as least not easily, but there are definitely improvements that can be made.
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Also all the people using Model S for things like fleet use that instantly voids the warranty, such as Taxi companies. People that buy salvage cars and want to get them back on the road. All this Tesla resistance is really going to massively drive up insurance costs and make TCO numbers stink. Not good for Tesla's mission!�
Jul 27, 2015
dgpcolorado He can correct me if I've got it wrong, but I think Ingineer meant a 40% reduction in energy lost/wasted in the HPWC (which is what is causing the heat in the unit).
Energy lost when comparing wall numbers to energy that makes it to the battery includes losses from cooling, the car's electronics, and the like. Reducing energy wasted in the HPWC seems like low-hanging fruit when it comes to charging efficiency improvements. And it should improve the life of the unit as well as safety.�
Jul 27, 2015
Arvind Thanks, I guess since I only have the UMC and it's covered it's mainly an inconvenience rather than a cost...I won't worry about it for now.�
Jul 27, 2015
Uncle Paul Very interesting thread, however I am a bit surprised at all the emotionality that it contains.
I come from the medical field, where some highly engineered product are placed in the marketplace. Without fail, someone will come along and find a way to make them even better. They are usually a bit condescending and often even arrogant at someone putting out a product that has areas of improvement. What they do not often consider is that someone was tasked with putting out a product to specs, including costs and availability of parts and the ability to produce it, and get it out into the marketplace where it will be implemented and reimagined for the next generation. They are never perfect, even though people's live will be dependent on their operation.
Sometimes this is just the way it is. Tesla says them make over 20 running improvements and changes every week. They seem to be tireless in their dedication to make these cars better in most every respect, however there are most always ways to make things better and more efficient. If a talented and gifted individual goes on a quest, focused upon a single part of a device, they often can come up with something even better.
The opportunity then presents itself. Will that person follow up with his better mousetrap by putting it into production and reaping the benefits, or...
I imagine Tesla is all over this issue, and would welcome any constructive improvements.
There are competitive charging systems in the marketplace. People can purchase the ones that serve them best.�
Jul 28, 2015
kennybobby Yes folks tend to get all fired up when they have insulation melting on the wires of the EVSE in their attached garage.�
Jul 28, 2015
AmpedRealtor By "folks", you mean that one person out of tens of thousands? Yah, let's focus on that.�
Jul 28, 2015
omarsultan IIRC, if you buy your HPWC with your car (i.e. its on the sales order), then it carries the same warranty as the car. If you purchase it later, then its carries a one year warranty. Its been a while, so perhaps this has changed?�
Jul 28, 2015
breser And now we've circled around. The thread was started because someone who bought an HPWC with the car was being denied warranty because it'd been more than a year. After complaining to HQ, this was resolved and they warrantied his HPWC.
At this point it's unclear when the HPWC changed to being just a year warranty even with the car (based on the experience this person posted that seems to have happened). However, you can't even order it with the car at all now.�
Jul 28, 2015
omarsultan That is a bit of bummer, did not realize that.�
Jul 28, 2015
beeeerock That bothered me when I was told to order my HPWC directly from the service center, before my car was even built. Clearly it was a purchase made necessary by the car, so not allowing me to order it *with* the car seemed odd. I wasn't aware of all the history to push it though. Having it installed before the car arrived was their logic and seemed like a good argument at the time...
However, this pattern is repeated with the second on-board charger. Bad enough that I couldn't order it as factory-installed, worse that the price is much higher as an accessory! It isn't readily apparent on the Shop Tesla site, but I'll wager it'll come with a one year warranty. Factory-installed would presumably have meant coverage under the car warranty. I won't be buying one unless I become desperate to have one.�
Jul 28, 2015
2fast2 I can assure you that is no longer the case, and I was the person responsible for getting Tesla to remove that suggestion that the HPWC purchased "with" the car would have a 4 year warranty. That is history, you can't order "with" the car and all HPWCs have only 1 year warranty. I bought mine on a VISA card with buyer protection features that supposedly can extend warranty an additional year. Hope I don't need to find out.
The Tesla Store people tell me the HPWC has undergone revisions and is more reliable than previously. Mine has worked fine (in the one week I've had the 85D, haha.)�
Jul 28, 2015
S85D Ingineer, if you ever decide to make additional circuit boards to implement the 40% heat reduction solution I would be interested in one.
I agree that Tesla should change the design to make the the HPWC run cooler but I have thought about adding vents to the bottom and on both sides at the top of the case to make it run cooler. My HPWC is installed in my garage so there will not be any issues with rain, etc. I will wait to do this until after the warranty expires.�
Jul 28, 2015
cwerdna Is there some clause in the warranty terms/booklet that states this?
I didn't notice anything like that in https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/model_s_new_vehicle_limited_warranty_2.1.pdf.
Model S Not Ready For Commercial Use Prime Time. Can I afford to own this car? uses a Model S in a livery service: Model S Not Ready For Commercial Use Prime Time. Can I afford to own this car? - Page 2.�
Jul 30, 2015
Ingineer Hmm. I read the warranty cover to cover before I purchased my car, and I vividly remember a "Fleet, Commercial, Taxi, or For Hire" exclusion. I definitely don't see it in there now! So either I am mistaken, or they took it out.�
Jul 31, 2015
Andyw2100 What do you mean when you say you were the person responsible for getting Tesla to remove that suggestion?�
Aug 2, 2015
breser I assume they got Tesla to remove the comment to that effect from the online store.
Tesla Accessories and Charging Adapters Wall Connector
That page used to say something about 4 years when purchased with the car.
Here is the evolution of the text.
July 2013: 1 year warranty regardless: Shop Tesla Gear High Power Wall Connector
September 2014: 4 year warranty with car, 1 year otherwise: Shop Tesla Gear Wall Connector
August 2015: 1 year warranty for over the counter and aftermarket online purchases: Tesla Accessories and Charging Adapters Wall Connector
Not sure when that last change happened since the wayback machine doesn't have any 2015 captures of the page. The new text is vague but probably means 1 year only for everyone now since they don't sell it with the cars anymore.�
Aug 2, 2015
Andyw2100 Ah, OK.
So you think he got Tesla to correct the website to be consistent with the policy that they had recently changed to. That makes sense.
I was reading it like somehow Tesla changed their policy based on something that had happened with him, but your interpretation seems more likely.�
Aug 2, 2015
ohmman I read it the same way but agree, this makes more sense. I couldn't figure out why someone would argue for less warranty.�
Aug 2, 2015
Andyw2100 Thanks.
I didn't think he had necessarily argued for less warranty, but rather that somehow some situation that he was involved in caused Tesla to change their policy, and he was just taking responsibility.�
May 26, 2016
AZCowboy Sorry to bump an old thread, however, many comments in this thread surround concern with the quality, design, reliability, and warranty associated with the Wall Connector. I simply wanted to point out some new information that may be relevant to anyone else that digs up this thread up through the search engine and reads through it.
I have no idea if the "redesign" addressed any of the issues in this thread, but I thought it might be good to know. FYI - when purchased separately, the warranty remains 1 year.
P.S. My first post, just confirmed today, and hope to be part of the family sometime in July or early August.�
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