Thứ Năm, 5 tháng 1, 2017

1.5 Roadster Tire Thread part 1

  • Jun 23, 2011
    vfx
    As not to highjack the 2.5 and Sport tire thread.

    With a 1.5 there is no "tire learning" mode so tire choices are limited as to diameter and other factors.

    What are you trying and how is it working?
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  • Jun 23, 2011
    vfx
    I recently tried Falken tires only on the rear. I needed rear tires real quick.
    $341 for both installed.

    The bad side:
    They are more squirrely than the stock tires that I had been exclusively using to date.

    The TC light does come on all the time on deceleration and basically there is no regen. Very interesting and I don't like it. If you release the accelerator at 55mph the regen kicks in when the car coasts down and hits 20mph.

    By the way. One guy at a shop told me my "Lotus" was required to have run flat tires and would not install anything but those.

    I have air settings at 30F 40R as Tesla recommends.
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  • Jun 24, 2011
    tennis_trs
    Does it make sense to have version 2.0 covered by this thread, or by the 2.5 thread, or is there any reason for it to be separated by itself?
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  • Jun 24, 2011
    ChargeIt!
    1. Garbage, of course, on the first item.
    2. Try reducing the delta between front/rear pressures. I am thinking 32-33 F and 35-36 R.
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  • Jun 24, 2011
    vfx
    Agreed if the 2.0 is different enough then it should have it's own thread.
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  • Jun 24, 2011
    tennis_trs
    My guess was that 2.0 and 2.5 should be included together. Are there any known tire related differences 2.0->2.5?
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  • Jun 24, 2011
    Doug_G
    I agree... I don't think there is any difference between 2.0 and 2.5 in terms of tires.
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  • Jun 25, 2011
    vfx
    I just don't know about 2.0 and 2.5 cars. I would imagine the issues related to tires are:
    Adjustable suspension (1.5 it was was not offered but I would guess you can now get it installed.)
    VDS firmware being able to "learn" new tires (not on a 1.5 screen)

    slightly tire related.
    mudflaps
    new wheelwell material

    Anything else? What applies to 2.0 cars?
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  • Jun 25, 2011
    Doug_G
    Well, the 2.0's have the learn tires feature. AFAIK the 2.5 changes are mostly cosmetic. (Aside from things like improved PEM, which some of the 2.0's have anyway.)
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  • Jun 25, 2011
    vfx
    At Charge It!s recommendation (thanks C.I) I adjusted the tires to 32F 36R [outside temp was 80] this morning. I drove 50 miles one way and notice little or no change. A bit less squirrley and maybe some regen but negligible.

    On the way home 3 hours later [out temp was 90], I was in classic LA stop and go traffic. Regen was working below 20 mph but as I went along I noticed it was working above 30 and then above 40. By the time I got home regen seemed to be back! TC light comes on very little (still more than stock tires) so everything seems back to normal (ish). Am I grateful for LA traffic here?

    I'm curious if it was the air adjustment or if it would have learned the Falkens in time. Thanks again to (C.I.)


    E2A:
    More on this saga below.
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  • Jun 26, 2011
    ChargeIt!
    Once the 1.5 gets "unhappy" with T/C during deceleration (regen) on non-standard (i.e. non-recommended) tires, it seems to never really get completely back to normal ... unless .... IOW, the loss of regen (T/C blinking) happens for at least a few miles each time after startup ... unless you intervene. That's where I think the air adjustment helps. You could go another +/-1 psi in each F/R to reduce the delta another 2 psi. Eventually you'll find your tires' and Roadster's personal "happy" spot :smile:

    (Welcome ...)

    Edit: The "squirreliness" may be due to inside edge wear (cupping) F or R, but more likely F. Or could happen if you have different brands (or just different tread patterns) on F versus R.
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  • Jun 26, 2011
    vfx
    Continuing saga. So the next morning at 7:00AM 16 mile drive everything was "broken" again. [outside temp was 60] The same no regen and TC light on all the time on deceleration. The next drive at 11:00 [temp at 80] 14 mile drive it did not get better. Another drive(s) at 3:00 [temp 90] 10 mile thenat 4:pM another 10 mile it never 'fixed' itself.

    bummed.

    E2A drive lengths above
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  • Jun 26, 2011
    ChargeIt!
    How many miles did you drive in each case ? Did you check tire pressures at each start-up ? Have you tried the 33F/35R setting yet, or even 35 all around ? (Naturally these are cold pressures ... up to 75F at the tires; but all four should move reasonably in sync. (Exception: LR might get a degree or three warmer due to removal of heat from PEM/Motor.))

    My theory: Yoko Advan Neova AD07 is a much softer compound. Lowering pressure on R (Falkens) makes up for it a little. Increasing pressure in F tires helps even-out the T/C's confusion of mismatched F/R speed sensors. None of this takes rpm (revs-per-mile) into account. I don't know how your Falkens compare to Yokos in that regard. You might want to post that data here.
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  • Jun 27, 2011
    vfx
    I added to the above post. I did not check pressures before any drive (I will from now till it's worked out) I always try to check tires after they have rested -hopefully cold.

    Have not tried any changes like 35FR yet. Will find and post tire data later.

    Why would it fix itself and then be "unfixed"? Temp was all I could think of but second day at 90 temp it did not fix again. Was it the stop and go traffic?

    Thanks for the input.
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  • Jun 27, 2011
    ChargeIt!
    Don't know the answer to that one. But the 1.5 never really learns (memorizes) the "fix" unless you help it along.
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  • Jun 28, 2011
    vfx
    Yesterday the tire pressure was where i had left it. 32F 36R
    I adjusted to 34F 36R and the day was in the mid to upper 80s. I drove about a 100 miles over the course of the day noon to 6PM with about 6 stops. On the trip home the car started to come back to working regen and less TC lights on deceleration never fully, but it was close.

    So now it seem that after considerable driving the car figures out the tires and the next day forgets and has to relearn the tires every time. Not sure why the Tesla is so stupid nor have I figured out how to help it learn other than CI's tire pressure suggestion. This is just lame. How about a button on the VDS that once the car has learned these tires after a long day of driving you push the button and it "remembers" the settings the car came up with for the tires instead of forgetting them overnight?
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  • Jun 28, 2011
    tennis_trs
    Do people believe that the 2.0/2.5s do a good job learning new types of tires? I've only used the AD07s so far.

    Does anyone know why the 1.5s can't learn like the 2.0/2.5s (supposedly) do? Does anyone know what Tesla says about the 1.5s not being able to learn?

    Does anyone know if trouble dealing with different types of tires is a normal issue for other cars with TC? Is it mostly just due to TC+regen in the Roadster's case? I've had other cars with TC and had no TC issues, but I believe that I stuck with the original models of tires for them.
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  • Jun 28, 2011
    Doug_G
    Yes, it works very well. I've switched my 2.0 to Toyo Proxes T1R and am very happy with them.
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  • Jun 28, 2011
    vfx
    Grrrr.
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  • Jun 28, 2011
    Doug_G
    :redface:
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  • Jun 28, 2011
    TEG
    In case anyone missed it, I think he means that he is disappointed that his 1.5 Roadster doesn't learn to regen properly with his new tires, and then on top of that he finds out that 2.0 Roadsters seem to do just fine with them. Grrrr indeed.
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  • Jun 28, 2011
    SByer
    Could it be just better tolerance in the '10 firmware for the tire pressure difference between when driving leaves off and the now-cold tires the next morning? Or maybe there's some TPMS difference that allows for the extra dynamic?
    Hmm. I wonder if there's something the tattler could store/restore?
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  • Jul 5, 2011
    vfx
    Update.

    I did that original 50 mile freeway drive a few times last week. Twice at "off commute" high speed drive-time and once in the middle of LA traffic. The slow to medium speed stop and go (on and off the accelerator) does teach the car to learn the tires to make regen work. Problem is, the car is stupid enough to forget all it's education later on. For me it was a 14 hour work day later on. So I'm not sure if it is forgetting immediately at the key turn off or if the smarts seep out over the course of many hours like a slow leaky tire.

    On the good side, Falken says they will give me a full refund.

    Now, the question for the group is, which are the tires you are happy with that are the best price?
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  • Jul 5, 2011
    Jaff
    Eric,

    With respect to Falken tires in general, I've not found that a lot of folks are happy with them...from the few hours that I spent researching tire information last fall (for snows), I noticed that Falken had an inordinate amount of negative responses from those who had purchased them.

    I'm ok with the standard Yoko AD07's, but I would like more dry road traction...my TM ranger who has track experience, has suggested that I try the Bridgestone Potenza RE 11's...I might give them a try when my Yokos are spent.
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  • Aug 25, 2011
    vfx
    Ok,

    Falken gave me a full (pure?) refund on the rears. Replaced with the P4 Toyos. TC works most all of the time (Falkens almost never worked) Tire pressures are 34F 36R. Best of all regen is back!

    They are not as grippy and the stock Yokos and on turns it feels like the whole tire is bending over but at half the price they are certainly a good option.

    While my regen was off for the last 3K miles I wonder how much miles I lost...?
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  • Aug 25, 2011
    vfx
    Same here but Lotus owners were using them on track days. That's why i tried them when my tire shop said that's what they had. They just don't work on the Roadster. No Regen and nearly 1/2 the Traction Control.

    I learn and move on.
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  • Aug 25, 2011
    dhrivnak
    When my Neova 07 rears were worn out at 4500 miles I replaced them with Continental Extreme Contact DWS. For me they were 1/2 the cost of new Neova 07's and they have 3X the projected tire life. I only have 100 miles on them and have not been back to the track but I have had no issues with the TC light. So far I am pleased and have not been able to notice a downside.

    I just hated to take all the money and CO2 I am saving with the Tesla and spend it on repeated tire replacements.
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  • Aug 25, 2011
    Doug_G
    I'm with you on the sentiment, but I switched to tires with "280 tread wear" (versus 100 for stock Yokos) and got perhaps 20% more life out of them.
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  • Oct 4, 2011
    rugbymonk
    Sorry for the slow reply here, but I can tell you I am very satisfied with the Continental Extremes on the front. But the better news is that on the rears I have Michelin Pilot Sport A/S plus from Costco! Great tire and great price. Not only have I raced them in the 1/4 mile and beat a few Porsches, after the first 11K miles or so, when they wore down, the warranty kicked in and I got a replacement pair almost for free! Who can top that?
    So with 26K miles now (stock Yokos replaced after about 8K), I still have plenty of tread, as confirmed at my 24K "tune-up" last week. Tesla NYC staff is pretty impressed...
    Hope this helps.
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  • Apr 7, 2012
    Eric from NE
    Looking for a recommendation on an all-season "low maintenance" set of tires on a 1.5 non-sport.

    98% of my driving is done at highway speeds. I don't want to change tires three times a year for weather (we get everything but tsunamis here... so far). I'm not interested in scratching every last tenth of second out of the 0-60 tie. It's my daily driver, weather permitting.

    Also, anything I should be aware of / point out to the shop when taking it someplace that has never seen / heard of a Tesla? I see the jacking points in the manual but didn't see anything about going up on a lift, other than having to buy adapters from Tesla. Is this the only option?
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  • Apr 7, 2012
    pgwoosley
    You or the tire shop can change the rear tires by jacking up one side of the car at a time. (The front tires can be changed the same way, or the entire front end can be jacked up with two jacks at one time.) Just explain to the shop and point out the well-marked jacking points.
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  • Apr 7, 2012
    dsm363
    The only tired officially recommended that fits front and rear sizes exactly is the AD07s. That's really just a summer tire than does ok in rain as well. For heavy snow, they do sell a winter tire set. You'd have to change your tires twice a year though.

    See this for other recommendations:
    2.5 Roadster / Roadster Sport Tire Thread

    Be very careful about having them put your car on a lift. You're much better off using the jack points to do one tire at a time.
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  • Apr 7, 2012
    Doug_G
    Tip: if you use the rear jack point, the front wheel comes off the ground first. You don't need to jack four times - only twice.
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  • Apr 7, 2012
    Eric from NE
    So anyone have experience changing the tires themselves? If all we're talking about is buy a tire / swap a tire I can handle that. Is there any more fancy-schmancy calibration that needs to happen?

    Sometimes I think I'm talking myself into over-thinking Tesla ownership, but it could be kind of expensive to under-think it... know what I mean? :redface:

    Edit: pgwoosley: missed you post earlier. Looks like you answered this already, unless someone else has any further tidbits.
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  • Apr 7, 2012
    Doug_G
    You have to differentiate between changing the wheels and changing the tires. It's pretty easy to swap wheels (with tires attached). It will take half an hour once you're used to it. You just need a decent jack - one that goes low enough to fit under the Roadster - and a torque wrench with a 17 mm deep socket. Plus the adapters that are in the car's toolkit. I swapped winter tires on/off myself (didn't bother with the tire sensors - I just ignored the TMPS errors). I now have a set of wheels with Yokohama A048's to swap in whenever I do autocross.

    Now swapping a tire on a wheel is a different matter. You require a machine to do that, and they are found at auto shops. Once the tire has been changed the wheel needs to be rebalanced. The machine also helps with that.

    I've noticed that the fronts gradually go out of balance as they wear, and this eventually causes steering vibration. So I always have my fronts rebalanced whenever the rear tires are changed.
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  • Apr 7, 2012
    Eric from NE
    I'm talking about jack it up, five nuts, pull one off, put one on, five nuts, jack it down. Rinse. Repeat.

    Does it depend on what my definition of "is" is? :smile:
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  • Apr 7, 2012
    Doug_G
    Yeah, it's that easy. Steps are:
    1. You'll need a jack, torque wrench, and 17 mm deep socket driver. Also from the car's tookit you will need the bolt extension tool (for four bolts on each wheel) and the locking bolt adapter (for one bolt on each wheel).
    2. Remove the key and apply the hand brake.
    3. Pick a side of the car to start on.
    4. Loosen the five bolts on both wheels on that side - one turn at most. (Be a little careful when you use the locking bolt adapter; it would be a real pain if you were to break it!)
    5. Locate the rear jacking point - identified in the manual, but on my car there's a blue sticker under the car that precisely identifies the location.
    6. Lift the car. You'll see the front wheel come off the ground first, even though you're jacking the back.
    7. Undo the five bolts and swap the front wheel.
    8. Make sure you have the directional tread in the correct direction! If not you've got the wrong wheel.
    9. Put the five bolts back on, don't fully tighten yet (the wheel will spin)
    10. Repeat the replacement procedure for the rear wheel.
    11. Lower the car and remove the jack.
    12. Set the torque wrench to 77 ft lbs and tighten all five bolts on each wheel in an alternating pattern. Go around a second time to make sure all five bolts are tight; they might not be if the wheel was a little cocked the first time.
    13. Repeat for the other side of the car.
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  • Apr 7, 2012
    Eric from NE
    OK, now we're on the same page. :biggrin:

    So basically I can spend �$1300 on a new set of tires & wheels and do it myself, or have a chain shop that's never seen a Tesla replace the tires for me... Kind of feel like either way I'm taking a big leap of faith!
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  • Apr 7, 2012
    doug
    53042-fork-lift-ready-move-my-car-qballs-elise.jpg
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  • Apr 7, 2012
    Eric from NE
    Same color even...

    Eerie!
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  • Apr 7, 2012
    jerry33
    If you can get to the right people, Michelin makes a manual tire changing table and tire levers for passenger car tires. This is small and inexpensive (use the FUSIL, and FACE levers). Basically the stand clamps to the edges of the wheel and can be moved to various angles to allow the tire to be mounted easily. Sorry, I can't remember the part name of the of actual tire changing table--it's been a while since I used one.

    Note that tire mounting is something of an art, so you'll want to practice on some cheap tires and wheels to perfect your technique before tackling your Tesla wheels.
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  • Apr 7, 2012
    pgwoosley
    When I purchased my used roadster, the rears had to be replaced before I could get the car registered. I ordered tires from one of the mail order places, removed one rear wheel and tire and took it plus the new tire (in another car) to a small non-chain shop and had the new tire mounted and balanced. Then I repeated for the other side.

    Some time later, I ordered new front tires and drove them in the Tesla to the same shop and had the new tires installed. I watched closely.

    In this part of the country there are a lot of individually owned tire shops. The one I went to does not even have a lift. Having seen the picture of the Lotus above and read the story, I felt better that the shop did not even have a lift. In my mind, the key is to be sure the shop does not try to lift both sides of the rear at one time. The small shop did not try to keep me from supervising with an insurance excuse.

    We do not need to use Winter tires here, so I cannot comment on what I would do if I had to swap tires or tires and wheels two times a year.

    Be sure you guard the "key" for the locking wheel bolts. You will need to order a new one from Tesla for about $50 if you lose it.
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  • Apr 7, 2012
    Doug_G
    Just do it yourself. You know you'll take your time, double-check everything, and do it right. Once you've done it once you'll realize how easy it is.
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  • Apr 8, 2012
    dhrivnak
    I had a local tire shop replace my rears with the Continental DWS Extreme Contacts. They were a reasonable price, for a Roadster, about $350 for both which included the mouting and balancing. They were VERY careful with the car and were happy to let me watch. I have done business with these guys for over 25 years a nice family owned and operated place. They exist just ask around in your town.
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  • Apr 9, 2012
    Eric from NE
    Local tire guy recommended Michelin Pilot Sport A/S.

    Any thoughts?
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  • Jun 4, 2012
    btown
    I posted this over in the 2.5 thread and someone suggested I post it over here as well. Based on what I was seeing folks say over on the 2.0 thread I decided to give the Michelin Pilot Super Sports a shot this time around. Looks like this thread hasn't been active for almost a year, so we'll see if anyone is interested in discussing. I'm particularly interested in the traction control during regen issue. Here's my post from the 2.0 tire thread:

    I put a set of Michelin Pilot Super Sports on the rear last week based on the positive experience some other owners had expressed. I was looking for a bit better wear and better rain performance. Here's my experience so far:
    • They are much quieter
    • Haven't had any rain yet, but the tread pattern definitley looks like it should do very well
    • They are sticky enough to launch (full accelleration) on dry flat ground without any traction control. This does not of course mean they are as sticky as the Yokohoma, but the only way to know for sure would be in aggressive cornering at high speeds and/or acceleration, which I have not tested. Fortunately, I think I've gotten past the reckless point of testing such capabilities (like I did back when I first got the car).
    • Traction control comes on a lot during regen (steadily blinks), but only for the first 1-2 miles after each start


    That last item is an interesting one. At first I was concerned the tires were not sticky enough. However, the tires are proving capable of much larger Gs during acceleration than they are trying to inflict on the car during regenerative braking. That coupled with the fact the traction control during regen goes completely away after 1-2 miles makes me suspect this is possibly a minor issue related to the new tire diameter??? The new tires are 25", whereas the AD07s are 24.9". That doesn't seem like enough difference to be an issue, but I can't think of any other explanation. Here's my theory. The rear tires are larger and therefore spin slower than the "stock" tires. During regen, it appears to the car that the tires are slipping (ie. real slipping caused the rear tires to turn slower during regen). My guess is that the car monitors the speeds of the front vs rear tires during normal cruising (ie. not heavy accel or decel) and comes up with the proper ratio to base the traction control on. I'm guessing that when you start the car you are at a default ratio and the car is learns the real ratio after a mile or two? The only odd thing with this theory is the fact they wouldn't store the learned ratio for use on the next drive. However, doing so might cause some safety issues on the first mile or two after replacing tires. So perhaps they took the more conservative approach by always starting with a factory default which is over cautious (ie. more prone to throw on the traction control vs. less prone which would be less safe). I have NO idea whether this is really what is going on, so I'm all ears if anyone can come up with a better theory. Thankfully, the traction control during regen still allows probably about 50-60% of normal regen AND everything goes back to normal after a mile or two. I'm confident this will probably just go away once the tires have .1" of wear on them.

    All in all, I'm very happy with the tires so far and consider the traction control a minor issue. I wouldn't be saying that if it was coming on during acceleration of course!
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  • Jun 4, 2012
    frequencydip
    I have one set of rims with out TPMS and while the VDS complains it does not cause any issues with regen or traction control. I've also experienced the issue where a 25 inch diamater tire causes regen to be at 50% for the first few minuts of driving it always goes away and back to normal.
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  • Jun 4, 2012
    btown
    It sounds like I'm experiencing exactly what you have seen. I'd say traction control is right around 50% (steady rate of blinking, but doing some amount of regen) and it always goes away after a few minutes. I think the new tires are all of about .1" larger than the AD07s, so I suppose it will stop happening after some amount of wear.
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  • Jun 4, 2012
    doug
    I don't quite understand the division of these tire threads. Is 2.5 any different from 2.0? Perhaps one of these threads needs to be renamed.
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  • Jun 5, 2012
    Doug_G
    Yes, this should be the 1.5 thread. The 2.0 and 2.5 behave identically from a tire perspective.
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  • Jun 5, 2012
    doug
    And what's the difference between 1.5 and 2.x?
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  • Jun 5, 2012
    TEG
    I renamed the title, and removed reference to 2.0
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  • Jun 5, 2012
    Doug_G
    The substantive difference is the lack of an ability to "learn" new tires. That limits the choice of tires, in that some choices that work fine on the 2.0/2.5 reportedly don't work very well on the 1.5.
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  • Jun 5, 2012
    vfx
    And minorly 1.5's did not have the adjustable suspension offered.
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  • Jun 9, 2012
    frequencydip
    The tires I have are .1 inch larger and that translates to about 3/32 of tread depth or 33% has to wear off before its the same size as a new AD07, so in about 4,000 miles the problem should go away....
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  • Jun 9, 2012
    smorgasbord
    Did you consider tire warm-up? That is, that the tires have better traction after they've warmed up from the driving?
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  • Jun 9, 2012
    jerry33
    Also you need the RPMs of the tire rather than the overall diameter. Different tires with the same overall diameter can have different RPMs.
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  • Jun 9, 2012
    frequencydip
    It wouldn't have anything to do with warm up, even tires as hard as a rock wont slip at 15mph with regen as the only breaking. Its defiantly the oversized tire.
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  • Jun 9, 2012
    smorgasbord
    If it is the oversize, why would regen get better after a couple miles of driving?
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  • Jun 9, 2012
    frequencydip
    How could a tire with the same diameter have a different RPM assuming the tire is not slipping...
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  • Jun 9, 2012
    frequencydip
    The computer learns the rotational difference between front and back and learns it after a few minutes... I have not tried but a oversized tire in the front would likely also solve the problem. So far everyone with this issue has a 25 inch tire in the rear and either stock or same size as stock in the front.
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  • Jun 9, 2012
    smorgasbord
    And then forgets it for the next drive?
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  • Jun 10, 2012
    jerry33
    Different hysteresis, different crown radius, different belt construction, etc. A tire is not just round and black, it's a very complicated piece of technology. That's why most tire manufacturers list the RPM as one of the specs of the tire.
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  • Jun 10, 2012
    btown
    It's interesting how such minor differences make such a difference. I'd always heard the traction control allowed about a 2% slip before kicking in. Heres the rotations per mile for the three different rear tires I've used so far:

    AD07: 835
    AD08: 836
    MPSS: 833

    That's about a .24% difference between the MPSS and the stock tires. I wonder if TC kicks in at .2% instead of at 2%?? Regardless, I find this to be only a minor inconvenience since it goes away rather quickly during each drive.

    My math puts me wearing down to the match point at 2400 miles if the tires really go 15K (which is what the warranty is when running different tires in the front vs back). It's also possible the issue will go away earlier, as I would presume there is at least some fudge factor involved in the default ratio they use. I'll make sure I note how many miles I'm at when the issue clears.
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  • Jun 10, 2012
    smorgasbord
    Let's consider a rear stock AD08. It's diameter according to Yokomaha, at the 225/45R17 size is 24.8", with a tread depth of 9/32". The standard for tire life is remaining tread depth of 2/32". That means the tire diameter will change from 24.8" to 24.36". And that means the revs per mile changes from 836 to 857 or so.

    Thus, I find it really hard to believe that the traction differences being reported are mostly due to differences in "new" tire diameters. And remember, we can go through 3 or 4 rears before we replace the fronts.
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  • Jun 10, 2012
    jerry33
    New tires also have mold release on them, which makes them slipperier for the first 300 miles or so.
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  • Jun 10, 2012
    frequencydip
    The issue is the tire is over sized not just sized differently, the larger 25" tire is revolving at 833 rotations per mile in btowns example its just outside of the range that tesla designed the computer to handle. It makes perfect sense if the rear tire is revolving to slow compared to the front when regen is on that computer thinks the rear tire is slipping on something like ice, its spinning to slow and it reduces regen to compensate. There are no issues under acceleration only regen.

    Yes the new tire mold issue can cause lower traction but thats only the tire needs to break in before it reaches its maximum potential the tire still has tons of grip when brand new.
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  • Jun 11, 2012
    btown
    I've had the tires and characterized the behavior enough to say I am absolutely sure it's not mold release or tire temperature. It is too consistent on hot or cold days (we're seeing pretty wild swings in temperatures this year). A couple minutes/miles into each drive and the problem disappears. I'm confident it's the tire diamater.
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  • Jun 11, 2012
    jerry33
    The one other suggestion I have is that those tires have a nylon cap ply which can take a set overnight--especially if the temperature varies considerably from day to night. This will work itself out after a few miles. It's minor enough that you won't feel it, but the traction control might.
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  • Jun 14, 2012
    frequencydip
    The only issue is the diameter, no one with normal diamater tires has ever reported the issue. Also occasionally when I leave in the morning the car has not finished charging, and the issue does not exist because the car never went to sleep after completing a charge. It only forgets about the new tire size when it enters sleep mode.
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  • Jun 14, 2012
    vfx
    This is an import observation. Is it a bug?
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  • Jun 14, 2012
    TEG
    Could this be related to regen braking? When you do a full charge the pack isn't ready to accept more energy so the regen is disabled until you drive for a little while and "bleed off" some power until it is ready to start doing regen again.
    �
  • Jun 14, 2012
    TEG
    Another sign it might be related to the pack not being fully charged on that drive...
    �
  • Jun 15, 2012
    frequencydip
    We'll if its a bug, its a bug that the car forgets the tire size when going into sleep mode.

    This is the second set of tires I've put on the car, no problem previously with the AD07, problem with new 25 inch tire. I also have a second set of rims with Kumho ECSTA V710s and they have no problem as they are normal sized tires.
    �
  • Aug 17, 2012
    btown
    I'm cross posting this from the Roadster 2.5 tire tread thread which I've been discussing this issue on as well since I think tire issues are pretty similar between the Roadster versions:

    I put Michelin Pilot Super Sports on the rear a while back, so I figure it's time to give an update. Please see my previous posts in this thread regarding traction control so you'll understand what I have to say next. I'm still running the original Yokos on the front, so the rear tires are .1" larger than they should be. I ran the calculations to determine what amount of tread wear would be required to get to the point where the rear tire size was what the Roadster expected (again, read up on my previous posts regarding TC). According to my calculations, that point would be 20% tread wear. So I've been watching for the startup TC issue to go away, because it will be a decent indicator of 20% tread wear. So far I've put about 4500 miles on these tires and the startup TC issue is still present, but just marginally. So I am confident that I'm just starting to get closer to the 20% wear point. At this rate, I'm estimating these tires may last as long as 25,000 miles (5X the point where the TC issue totally disappears).

    Overall I continue to be pleased with these tires. They are sticky enough to launch without TC in most reasonably flat dry pavement situations. I would NOT be willing to give that up! Where I notice the biggest difference is in cornering. The AD07s and AD08s rarely broke loose and even when they did, they didn't really squeal and tended to grab again fairly quickly. The Michelins will squeal on fairly aggressive cornering and definitely break out much sooner than the Yokos. Fortunately, after putting over 13K miles on the Roadster, my juvenile desires to push corners really hard have faded and I've settled down into a more reasonable driving manner. I still do full on launches regularly, but I just don't try to nail the corners... especially now that I'm not running the Yokos. I don't track the car, so I feel very comfortable with the new limits I have on cornering. It's a small sacrifice for not having to replace the rear tires every 6-7K miles and in the end, I may actually be safer than before. Now I know fairly well where the cornering limit is. With the Yokos, I tended to be way overconfident because it took so much to break them loose.

    Then after posting this, I actually measured my tire tread and posted the following revised update:

    Ok, I don't have a gauge yet but I did take a quick measurement of the tread depth which I think is about as accurate as I can get without having a gauge in hand at the moment. It turns out I'm at about the 50% point rather than the 20% wear point which I had hoped. I also checked my actual miles on these tires and it's 4,600 miles (I was only off by 100 miles).

    So I would like to officially restate my estimate for the Michelin Pilot Super Sports to be around 9,200 miles. I'm sure I'll run them down until all wear bands are hit all the way across, so I'm now estimating I may be able to get somewhere around 10K miles. The warranty will help in that regard, so I'm still pleases with the tires overall.

    Now.... Anyone have any theories on why I still have a slight startup (first few minutes of drive) TC issue??? The tires were supposed to be just .1" larger in diameter than the stock tires. With 1/4" of wear so far, the tires now have 1/2" trimmed off the original diameter. So these tires (in theory) are now 24.5" diameter vs the stock tires which start out at 24.9". Yet I still see a slight startup TC issue. Hmmmm.....
    �
  • Aug 17, 2012
    wiztecy
    Thanks for the writeup! I've got 8,500 miles on my Rear AD07's and just getting ready to hit the wear band on the right rear tire. Contemplating about the AD08 vs. the Michelin Sports. Good to know about that stickiness on corners, makes sense since the wear is longer on the Sports. I think I'll be running the AD08's next, my commute is through twisty turns that go up and down a mountain where an accident can appear at any last second. One thing I know is that I feel the Tesla has the majority of its weigh in the back, once that back end breaks free its very difficult to return it. Similar issues with the Porsche 911 design, its like giant pendulum when the weight is focused in the back. I may move to the Sports after I wear the fronts out and do a full swap. I don't want my front to be sticky and my back to be less sticky. Would rather match the tires in terms of traction and have the front plow when I know I'm pushing it too hard.

    Possibly someone can chime in on their experience when the backend has broken free.... if its recoverable and also how far it got away.

    I also hope your TC blues go away!
    �
  • Aug 17, 2012
    Doug_G
    I've spun my Roadster 2.0 a couple of times in autocross. Yeah, it can happen very quickly, and once it goes you're just along for the rides - get on the brakes!

    Last year I was running Toyo T1Rs (not quite as sticky as AD07), TC off, and sway bars loose front, middle rear. Here's a newbie mistake caused by snap oversteer. I got distracted and momentarily lifted in a fast corner. Just for fun here's the video:



    More recently I've been running A048's for autocross, and I've yet to spin it. Part of that might be that I'm more experienced, but the A048's are kick-ass. They just don't last very long.

    For the street I run AD07 front and AD08 rear. The AD08 characteristics are very similar in to the AD07's so I don't think there is any greater risk of breaking the rear loose. Certainly if you've got the TC on then I wouldn't be concerned at all.

    As it happens I've got Michelin Pilot Super Sports on my Infiniti. They're not quite as sticky as AD07 but pretty darn good, and are quite good in the rain. I haven't tried them on the Roadster but can give a general thumbs up based on their performance on my Infiniti. That said, I think AD07/AD08 is a great combination for the street, and I bet they'd work just as well on a 1.5.
    �
  • Aug 18, 2012
    wiztecy
    Thanks Doug! Very helpful insight on the tires as well as the video. Great visualization seeing that backend break free, and like you said you're there just for the ride! Looks like lots of fun doing the autocross, a true way to test and see what your car can do!
    �
  • Aug 18, 2012
    vfx
    Just put the MPSS on my rears (now 300 miles). Great price. So far it takes about 12 miles before the car learns them and the TC and regen return. Not happy about using the brakes to slow during a largely downhill 10 mile trip. I look forward to honing in on the "miles traveled" to wear point that everything is normal.

    Can't Tesla widen the tire diameter tolerances on the car's software? Or add a learning feature like the 2.0'shave?
    �
  • Nov 10, 2012
    Pantera Dude
    Here's a thought on the rear tire diameter issue. If the tire diameter is too large, how about just lowering the pressure? Seems like that would reduce the effective diameter? And since the problem seems not to extist during acceleration, perhaps that is due to the car squating which should again reduce the rear tire diameter?
    �
  • Nov 10, 2012
    jerry33
    Nope, won't work. The revolutions per mile of a tire (which is what we're concerned about here) are dictated by the steel belts. Even at extremely low pressures (example 10 psi vs. 40 psi) the revs per mile won't vary enough to matter (probably less than 0.5% depending on tread depth and hysteresis). That would have worked with bias-ply tires because the revs per mile varied greatly with the pressure (30% to 40% was not uncommon). And there are a lot of other reasons to not lower the pressure.

    VXF's solution of software change is the correct answer.
    �
  • Nov 10, 2012
    Doug_G
    Could always do what the racers do for best grip - shave your tires!

    (I guess that might undermine the whole idea of getting less expensive performance tires...)

    Have you tried the AD08's? That's what I run on my 2.0's rears. They're a lot less expensive than the AD07's and they work very well.
    �
  • Nov 11, 2012
    vfx
    Not ruled them out. Will upgrade if I'm ultimately not happy. So far they are a solid O,K.
    �
  • Nov 16, 2012
    dhrivnak
    I have the Continental DWS extreme contact tires on my Roadster. At less than half the price and 2X the tread life, actual not rating, and I have been pleased. I get some T/C on deceleration when new for about the first mile of driving, once the tires heat up a little the T/C stays off. Launches are just fine and on a clean dry road no T/C light. Since the car has significant understeer to me the car is slightly better balanced with the Yokohama AD07 on the front and the Continentals on the rear. The tires are also rated for snow which I hope to try out this year.
    �
  • Nov 24, 2012
    j-g
    Anyone look at or install Bridgestone Potenza RE 970 AS Pole position tires on the rear? According to specs, they are identical size to the AD07's with 835 revs/mile and come with a tread life warranty. Test results on Tire Rak look good too.
    �
  • Jan 20, 2013
    wiztecy
    Switched over to the AD08s from the AD07s and they look, feel, and work great. Got 14,200 miles out of the AD07s, will see how far the AD08s will last. You can burn the AD07s on the wear bars for a long time, just keep an eye on it. I wore them down to the last rubber layer right before the belts on the inner (not outer) side of tires. Note the inside of the tires will wear allot more than the outside!! Make sure to be careful in the rain and turns. I was amazed the Roadster didn't show any signs of Hydroplaning, I'm sure its due to weight favored towards the rear. I know if you hit a patch hard and fast enough (around a turn for the most part) it will, just physics. I also heard the AD08s go a little further than the AD07s. I had no issues with TC with hard launching or hard regen. What was odd was that the Tesla Service Manager recommended to get new front AD07s, he said if the TC light came on that would fix it due to the wear differences. I was confident it wouldn't and told him I highly doubt it will since the AD07s have the same rev's as the AD08s. Love the tread pattern of the AD08s. My neighbor saw them and said they looked very racy!
    �
  • Jan 20, 2013
    smorgasbord
    I just want to urge people to be careful driving Roadsters in the rain with tires that have less than 3/32" of tread remaining (wear bars at at 2/32", btw). Despite TC, people have lost control of their Roadster in rain and on freeways. I saw a car in Menlo Park that had fishtailed out and smashed into the center rail. It had worn tires.

    Yes, you can push the tread depth safety margin if it's dry. While on the East Coast it can rain anytime of the year, here in CA it's typically dry from May through August. So, if you're lucky enough to be wearing out your tires in the Spring, you can probably get through the summer before needing to replace them before the first rain.

    Without enough tread depth there's nowhere for the water to do, so your car can hydroplane. Here's a good article on it from Tire Rack.

    If you feel you must drive on worn out tires in the rain, putting the car in range mode will prevent you from applying maximum torque. But, really, replace your tires when they're worn.
    �
  • Jan 20, 2013
    Doug_G
    Totally agree. The tread does nothing on dry pavement - there's a reason racing slicks exist. But in wet conditions the tread is there to channel the water away. I have experienced hydroplaning at highway speeds in the Roadster (new tires were already on order but the tread was thinner than I realized). I got off the highway immediately as it is much less likely to happen at lower speeds. Standing water is especially dangerous. Don't take a chance with this!
    �
  • Jan 20, 2013
    jerry33
    Hydroplaning happens when the wedge of water that builds up in front of the tires is equal to or greater than the air pressure of the tires. Tread reduces this pressure raising the speed at which a given tread width tire will hydroplane (given the same inflation pressure).
    �
  • Jan 21, 2013
    wiztecy
    100% agree on the hydroplaning warnings, and if its raining people should swap out their tires at those wear marks. Not much to channel at those wear marks (so be cautions there as well) but its some small place for water to go and every bit helps. Was lucky that we didn't get any serious consecutive rains here in Cali this winter. When I did drive the roadster I was driving very conservative, also I wouldn't push the fronts that far in a million years since that's disaster brewing.

    One thing to note, when you hydroplane its essentially as if your wheels are on ice and where your inertia is focused is where you and your car will eventually end up.

    Highway 17 is hell for driving in the rain, I'd push the roadster to its limit on the worn tires heading up the hill and on straits but never down the hill nor on turns and not over 50. I also was very cautious of others around me which is a big thing when being on the road and knowing you, your car, and its current driving limits.
    �
  • Mar 5, 2013
    Jackyche
    I'm about to change my first set of rears. After reading this thread and other 2.5 threads on tires, here's what I summarized for a 1.5

    3 choices in addition to stock that will not have any significant loss of regen or resulting in traction control coming on:

    Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus - possible tread life warranty
    Continental Extreme Contact DWS
    Yokohama AD08

    Unverified 4th choice but with identical rev/mile as stock:
    Bridgestone Potenza RE 970 AS Pole Position

    Anything else anyone would like to add?
    �
  • Mar 5, 2013
    tomsax
    We recently put Continental Extreme Contact DWS all around on our v1.5 as Seattle "winter" tires. So far, they seem great, quieter, no traction control issues, and the efficiency seems at least as good at the originals. We also bought a second set of rims, which was more of an ordeal that I expected especially considering we ended up buying wheels from Tesla. I can write up what we learned, or PM me if you're looking to purchase a second set of wheels.
    �
  • May 2, 2013
    Pantera Dude
    My rear Yoko AD07's are worn out so I'm doing a little tire research. The Kumho's worked for Frequencydip which surprises me a bit. The rpm's for that tire are shown as 830 where some folks have had slight regen/TC problems with tires that are closer to the Yoko's 835 rpm. I don't understand why, any ideas?
    �
  • May 2, 2013
    Pantera Dude
    For example: Btown's Michelin's gave him a slight problem and their rpm is 833, very close it seems? The rpm ratio of the stock AD07's rear to front is .946 to 1. The ratio of the Michelin rear to the AD07 front is .944 to 1. Two thousandth's difference, hard to believe that would have any effect? Tom Saxton's Continental Extreme Contact DWS have a ratio of .958 for a difference of twelve thousandth's over stock, assuming he is running the 195/50-16's on front. How can that be?

    - - - Updated - - -

    I've found a promising option for the 1.5. It is the Dunlop Direzza DZ101 at Tirerack. The 225/45-17 has an rpm of 837, the front would be the 195/50-16 which has the identical 882 rpm of the AD07 175/55-16. The rear to front ratio is .948 as opposed to the Yoko's .946. What might help here is that the rear Dunlop is slightly smaller than the stock tire unlike the other slightly larger rear tires that have caused problems. You also have to love the price of the Dunlops, $76 for the fronts and $92 for the rears! :biggrin:
    �
  • May 2, 2013
    bart513
    Do you save any significant money buying tires/wheels outside of Tesla?
    �
  • May 2, 2013
    Doug_G
    Yes, last time I changed tires I found the stock AD07's were cheaper at Tire Rack.
    �
  • May 2, 2013
    Pantera Dude
    Have any of you tried the Dunlops?
    �
  • May 2, 2013
    strider
  • May 2, 2013
    Pantera Dude
  • May 2, 2013
    Jackyche
    The 2.5 thread doesn't really apply to us 1.5 owners because their car has a learn tire feature.

    I'll be changing my rear to Bridgestone in a month or two at discount tires. They gave a 30 day thing so if its no good, ill just go with the continental extreme contact (which they have in stock).
    �
  • May 2, 2013
    Pantera Dude
    Will you be running the AD07's on the front?
    �
  • May 3, 2013
    tomsax
    That's correct, Continental Extreme Contact DWS, 225/45ZR17 on the rear and 195/50ZR16 on the front. They worked out very well, seemed to have good energy efficiency and also seemed quieter than the AD07's. I didn't get to drive them in deep snow, but they performed well in heavy rain, slush and some ice.

    I've been a long-time fan of Discount Tire. They had always been great for us, right up until I took our Roadster there.

    We were still looking for options for other wheels and they wanted to measure them. I pulled it into the bay and showed them the owners manual with the lift point. They couldn't be bothered and the young guy was ready to start jacking one side up on the wrong place. I had to physically stop him, and get a different guy to look at the diagram and figure it out. I decided that was the last time the Roadster would be in their hands.

    They couldn't find any options for wheels that looked good and matched front and rear, so we bought a set of the base Roadster wheels and a set of TPMS sensors from Tesla.

    Since I ordered tires that aren't on Tesla's recommended list (although they acknowledged that owners have had good results), they declined to mount the tires. So, I took the wheels and TPMS sensors to Discount Tire to mount them. They said they knew how to mount the sensors. I then took the mounted tires, swapped them onto the car myself, and the TPMS sensors didn't work. I would get an alert after driving for a few minutes. I double-checked with Discount Tire to make sure they had installed the right sensors (they also sell TPMS sensors that aren't compatible). They said they did. So I called up Tesla and told them the story.

    Tesla sent two techs out to our house, and they drove the Roadster back to the Seattle service center. They found that the TPMS sensors weren't mounted correctly. They key is to make sure the sensors are in contact with the wheel, and torqued to 4 nm on the stem side. Here's a picture of what the sensor should look like when mounted.

    tpms-sensor.jpg

    Tesla also claimed that the wheels weren't balanced properly, the tech noticed a vibration on the drive to the service center at freeway speeds. (I hadn't driven it above 30 mph when testing the TPMS.) So, they rebalanced the wheels, and said it drove much better on the way back. The tires and TPMS sensors worked flawlessly through the winter. When I switched back to the summer wheels/tires, the car picked up the other sensors without a single alert.

    Amazingly, Tesla didn't charge me anything for fixing Discount Tires' mistakes.
    �
  • May 3, 2013
    Pantera Dude
    Good info, thanks Tom!
    �
  • May 3, 2013
    Pantera Dude
    I just ordered a set of four of the Dunlops for $395 including shipping from Tirerack, I'm stoked! :biggrin: I'll keep you all posted on the results.
    �
  • May 6, 2013
    btown

    Sorry for the late replay on this, but better late than never...
    I'm running the Bridgestone Potenza RE970AS Pole Position tires on the rear right now (still original AD07s on the front). I bought these before I figured out how badly my Roadster's rear alignment was and was trying to find something that would give me more than 6-7K miles. Well, these were a BIG mistake. Although they seem to be a good match in terms of size (ie. no regen TC issues), they just aren't soft/grippy enough. I cannot take off on a straight line on flat dry pavement without TC kicking in because they just don't have the grip. I found the previous Continental ExtremeContact DWS and the Michelan Pilot Super Sports to both provide enough grip for hard takeoffs, but the Protenzas are just not up to the task.

    Next change (which may be long before these Potenzas wear out) will be back to the Michelan Pilot Super Sports, unless the fronts are ready to be replaced, in which case I'll consider moving all 4 to the Continental ExtremeContact DWS. Did I read Tom right, in that the Continentals performed well (in terms of TC issues) when pairing them on the fronts as well?
    �
  • May 6, 2013
    tomsax
    Thanks for the update on the Bridgestones. It's good to know what doesn't work to save others from doing the same experiment!

    Yes, that's correct. I didn't do any two-footed drag race launches, but I didn't notice any more TC flickers than with the AD07s.
    �
  • May 6, 2013
    Pantera Dude
    I usually drive with the TC off so that I can "light em up" when I get the chance.

    To clarify, I can't light them up from a standing start but they will spin on a low speed right turn.
    �
  • May 18, 2013
    Pantera Dude
    I put the new Dunlops on yesterday and boy are they quiet! What a difference! I imagine any new tires would have been quieter than my old "AD07"s? The rears were worn thru and were cupped on the insides. No TC problems with the Dunlops. One significant difference is that they squeal when lit up as opposed to the Yokos. I don't know why that is? Maybe it's because of the Dunlop's harder compound? I was expecting more wheel spin with the new tires but it doesn't look that way so far, more testing required! :biggrin:
    �
  • May 18, 2013
    Jackyche
    Which model of Dunlop did you use Pantera?


    �
  • May 28, 2013
    Jackyche
    I got a week of driving in with the Continental ExtremeContact DWS paired with stock fronts.

    First, the Continentals are waaaay more quiet than AD07's. I'm talking big time difference here, night and day. Second, they ride way nicer too. Going over bumps and stuff is much more refined now.

    However, I am getting TC light coming on during city driving. Usually on the final 20mph and below. So during city driving, I would accelerate on green light, and during slow down for the next set of traffic lights, TC would come on for a second or so. Not a big deal but I'm so used to aggressive regen, I expect a certain amount of deceleration and when its not there, I gotta use the brakes. A little surprising at the beginning but used to it now.

    Overall, with the cheaper price, improved noise, improved ride, longer treadlife, I'm very happy with these.
    �
  • May 28, 2013
    Pantera Dude
    Sorry I didn't respond sooner, I just saw this tonight. The Dunlop is the Direzza 101. Fronts are 195/50R16 and the rears are 225/45/R17.
    �
  • May 29, 2013
    ChadS
    You're getting TC on slowdown with the DWS? I have those (paired with AD07 on the fronts at first; now all four tires are DWSs) and I haven't run in to that. Perhaps it's just that your tires are new and the mold release hasn't all come off. Or perhaps our tire management firmware is different...I have a 2.0, and this is the 1.5 thread, and I've heard the two differ, though I'm not sure just how.

    In any event, I'm happy with the DWSs for around town. The only issue is that I sometimes get TC on acceleration (more often on dry pavement than wet, which I've never understood). They also seemed a bit squirmy when I tried emergency braking on a track once.
    �
  • Jun 19, 2013
    ChargeIt!
    Try reducing the difference of rear versus front psi. In other words, where Tesla recommends 30F/40R reduce that 10psi difference to 7 psi, thus using (for example) 31F/38R. See what happens and report back. HTH.

    The 2.0+ has a "Tire Learning" mode that does not exist on the 1.5. Also the 1.5 is less tolerant to a change in rpm (Revs-per-mile, or (basically) tire diameter).
    �
  • Jun 19, 2013
    Jackyche
    Sorry, can't report back because I actually returned them. The DWS tires started out great, but as time went by, the TC came on more and more. It got to basically no traction control happens at 30mph deceleration.

    I have since switched to Dunlop Direzza (sp?) as reported by Pantera Dude. It started out great. After 100 miles now or so, I'm getting just a hint of TC on inconsistent speed zones. If this doesn't work out, I'll just go with changing all 4 tires either with DWS or Dunlop.

    �
  • Jun 19, 2013
    Pantera Dude
    I probably should have mentioned this but it just dawned on me, that the only time I use the TC is if the road is wet. Other than that, I drive without it. When I fire the car up for a drive, I turn the headlights on, reset the odometer and turn off the TC. So it is possible that I could experience a problem using the TC. I'm not sure I've even driven the car with the TC engaged on the Dunlops? I'm sorry if my recommendation has caused you or anyone else a problem.
    �
  • Nov 21, 2013
    asgard
    After reading this entire thread, I can't figure out if there is any tire besides the AD07 that runs on the 1.5 without TC or regen problems.

    It's a shame Tesla did not add the firmware code for tire learning to the 1.5. That seems to be a cheap solution and easy too.

    Are we stuck with the AD07s for ever?
    �
  • Nov 21, 2013
    Jackyche
    Not true. The Continentals didn't work for me because I only changed out the rear and not the fronts. Tom and others had great experiences with the Continentals when all 4's are changed.

    I'm currently using Pantera's Dunlop Direzza. It has very minimal TC issues (only the first couple of times of regen occurance per trip, remainder of the trip is just fine.). Pantera drives with TC off so I kinda jumped the gun on it but its working fine. Very happy with them.

    �
  • Nov 21, 2013
    wiztecy
    Talk to Rob Dietsch, I discussed this with him and we spent some time talking about the revolutions matching the AD07's. He has a few tires that he says will last longer and be stickier than the Yoko's. I'm running the AD08's in the rear, cheaper and better than the AD07s. Same rev's as the AD07 so no TC issue. I may move up to the 195 fronts to make things work out better. I have 23k on the Roadster now, went through 1 set of rears around 12.5k, the AD08s appear to be holding up longer. My fronts are wearing on the inner like the rears due to the camber. So I'm about due on the next round for a full 4 tire swap.

    I think a firmware change was incompatible with the 1.5 for some reason or else they'd have done it. Although many hardware issues can be resolved via software so I would think it is do-able. The 1.5 has a totally different TPMS system which I think might be the limitation as well as Tesla resources / focus at the time.
    �
  • Nov 22, 2013
    asgard
    I will talk to Rob. I am surprised the Continentals worked. The rev/mile for the fronts are off 864 vs 882 for stock.
    This will likely confuse the TC since relative rpm is one of the variables in determining slip.
    I worry about TC coming on continuously for any length of time greater than a few seconds. The impact on the braking system is high and then there's the wear on the pads.
    �
  • Nov 22, 2013
    tomsax
    I have the Continental DWS Extremes all around and ran them for five months last winter on our v1.5 without any unusual TCS activity. I recently put them on for this winter and drove them on a 360-mile round trip to Portland without any issue.

    It's great to have the quieter tires back on the car.
    �
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