Apr 8, 2015
TexasEV With the new 70D and new option configurations and pricing, Tesla is back to showing prices "after incentives and gas savings". In other words, low prices that don't actually exist. Yes a cash price is also shown on the page if you look for it, but the headline price under each configuration is in bold black and under that in faint gray print is the disclaimer "after incentives and gas savings". I understand subtracting the federal tax credit, that's an actual dollar figure that buyers are rebated-- but I think it's misleading to include estimated gas savings in the headline price. This reeks of car dealerism, if such a word exists. Tesla, you're better than that.�
Apr 8, 2015
AnOutsider 100% agreed on this. I was originally turned off by this when they did it in the past, and happy that they stopped. Now, here we go again. Show the price, then say something like XX,XXX after incentives, not this crap.
I guess they're at least not showing cost including what your "time at the pump" is worth per hour
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Apr 8, 2015
taurusking
I was definitely pissed when I saw the time at the pump to include that in the savings..:cursing:
I don't know why Tesla did that in the past...are they trying to attract new buyers by posting such statements....Tesla....please stop its not working....Like everyone says...you are better than that�
Apr 8, 2015
Longhorn92 I also don't like that you now have to order a $5,000 package, including the Alcantra headliner, just to get the power liftgate. This reminds me of normal car industry option packaging as well.�
Apr 8, 2015
scaesare Agreed. As I wrote earlier:
I agree with this. They did some of that sort of thing before when they attempted to also count the value of your time for refueling stops, etc... they got rid of it after they caught flack for it (here and elsewhere)
I think the data is useful, but they should include it in a "TCO" section along with the relative costs of charging vs. gasoline refueling, or similar, but not in the pricing data section.�
Apr 8, 2015
exLeaf so the price for base 70D is not 57,500
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Apr 8, 2015
MsElectric I don't understand why they are doing this nonsense playing around with prices as the 70D is a very compelling offering at its actual price. We drive only about 5-6K a year so the gasoline savings is irrelevant to us. They should just list the actual price of the car. By dressing up the prices with arbitrary gasoline savings they are doing the 70D and themselves a disservice.
As for the Power Liftgate now being bundled with Alcanntara I think sooner or later they will either have to move the Liftgate out of the Premium Package or charge something more reasonable for the Premium Interior Package. IMHO $2,500 would be a fair price for the Premium Interior. Especially considering that cars with the pano roof hardly have much surface area being covered by Alcantara anyway as the roof is all glass!�
Apr 8, 2015
liuping Attaching the power liftgate, which is a very useful feature, to a useless $5000 interior lighting and minor trim update package is incredibly lame.
I will absolutely not pay $5000 for a power liftgate. There is no way to justify that to myself (or my wife, upgrading to a p85D is already pushing it a bit :smile: )
Now my planned upgrade to a P85D will be a $118k car with a liftgate that belongs on a $15k Kia.
Edit: I just saw it also include Homelink in the "premium" package, so I basically am being forced to have to add the $5000 options. I an not driving around in $118k car with a garage down opener clipped to the visor. They should at least reduce the price by $1500 of P85D buyers, since the Alcantara headliner is already included in their car.�
Apr 8, 2015
patp I agree the power liftgate at $5000 is totally ridiculous. It's a must for us when we drop the kids at school. At least it should be a separate option.�
Apr 8, 2015
MsElectric I agree with you completely. If I were you, I'd wait a bit before finalizing your order. I think they will realize pretty soon it was a poor decision to move the power liftgate to a $5,000 package of random odds and ends of trim pieces that most consider to be overpriced. The Premium Interior IMHO has always been an overpriced option but now they've made it worse.
Tesla is very nimble with customer feedback. I remember when the P85D first came out with 21" wheels required there was a lot of flack from those of us living in states with badly maintained roads that make 21" wheels a horrible idea and they quickly changed the option packages to address that issue. I bet they will either make the power liftgate standard or offer the Premium Package at a more reasonable cost.
We are in the same situation as you with considering a P85D but like you, I don't see us wasting money for a $5,000 option package for the Alcantara to get the power liftgate. If that package was about $2,000, we'd go for it.�
Apr 8, 2015
mikeash Totally agreed. By all means, talk about the savings you get with an EV. That's a big part of the appeal! But do so honestly, by showing the up-front price and then talking about the long-term TCO separately.
Saying $57,500 up front may get people in the door, but you'll also piss them off when they see that the amount of money they have to actually fork over is $76,200. If you have a good product, you can sell it with honesty.
It's especially ridiculous because "gas savings" makes tons of assumptions about long-term gas prices, driving habits, and alternative cars. If I'm driving 7,500 miles/year, assume gas prices hold steady at about $2.50/gallon, and my alternate choice is a Prius, that's way different from if I drive 30,000 miles a year, assume gas prices will hit $5/gallon soon, and my alternate choice is a V8 Camaro. Savings is essentially zero in the former case (about $1900 in gas over five years, which is similar to what electricity will cost for the Tesla), while in the latter case you save about $50,000.�
Apr 8, 2015
MsElectric Maybe they can offer it as a $750 retrofit option? Especially with the frunk lid still being fragile with the creasing issue I consider the power liftgate to be a must.�
Apr 8, 2015
AnOutsider Or at least come with the little "wave your foot under the back to open the hatch" thingy.�
Apr 8, 2015
ecarfan Tesla, stop acting like the car dealers you and we despise
I generally agree with the sentiments expressed in this thread so far and have posted similar complaints in another thread.
I thought Tesla had moved past the nonsense about factoring "gas savings" into the most prominently displayed price on the Design Studio page. But now it's back. Very disappointing.
And moving some of the now defunct Tech Package options into the Premium package option, including really useful stuff like the power lift gate is a bad idea. Many people don't care about the alcantara headliner and partial dash cover and should not be required to pay thousands for that just to get a few things they really want like the power lift gate and fog lights. That makes no sense.
I applaud the move of manyTech Package items to standard equipment. But Tesla seems to be struggling to figure out what the Premium Package option should include. I think they need to give in and make more individual line item options like most other manufacturers do so people can customize their car the way they want. I understand hat Tesla wants to simplify not only the ordering experience but also their manufacturing processes, but they have gone too far.
We know Tesla reads TMC. They do listen. So listen up Tesla!�
Apr 8, 2015
Gizmotoy Wow, that's incredible. Despite originally thinking it was silly, I'd now never buy a Model S without a power liftgate. That is, until it became a $5k option (I don't really care about any of the other stuff in that package). I expect you're going to start seeing a lot of buyers take the Autopilot package and leave off the Premium package.
Weren't lighted door handles standard across the entire line? The Fog/Cornering lights were an option/in technology package. The interior accents were an overpriced $1k option.
Essentially what was the old technology package went from an already-ridiculous $5k to $7.5k and now includes the relatively unpopular alcantara headliner and interior lighting packages.
On the plus side, it's nice that everyone gets navigation and Supercharger access now.�
Apr 8, 2015
Zextraterrestrial agree, crazy package for liftgate and led handles. Really glad options were combined like they were back in the 'year of Model S'�
Apr 8, 2015
MsElectric I think they should just make the Premium Interior a $2,000 option and call it a day. Many will order it at that point without any resentment for having to pay for the overpriced Alcantara. The only two features in the Premium Interior package that have any real value to me is the power liftgate, ambient lighting, and lighted door handles. We've owned too many European cars with ambient lighting to consider it a basic necessity for a car in this price range as it adds a nice ambient to the interior at night. This will then also end what has been a perpetually overpriced option with little value.
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Apr 8, 2015
Zaxxon It's a little ambiguous, as the premium package says 'GPS-enabled Homelink'. I agree that since there's no reference to Homelink in the standard features, it does appear that this was moved, as well. Totally ridiculous. This was included on my $23k Prius 8+ years ago. IMO, power liftgate and Homelink should either be standard or available at a reasonable cost. $5k is not reasonable, regardless of what else is in that package.�
Apr 8, 2015
EMP40 I completely agree on the power liftgate as I will want that, but will not order if I have to pay 5K for other stuff that I do not want. It should be available without the other "stuff".�
Apr 8, 2015
yobigd20 email and call Tesla and tell them that you are not ordering until they separate out these options or get rid of the premium package entirely and have it all standard. spending $5k just to get a power liftgate and homelink is downright unscrupulous.�
Apr 8, 2015
markb1 Are they still coating the windshield with something that blocks garage door openers?
Also, has any brought this up? In November, Tesla sent out an email about dual motors and autopilot. At the end, they included this sentence:
Is "lie" too strong a word?�
Apr 8, 2015
bonaire This isn't actually a significant platform change. There are some options pricing changes and a battery-size change.�
Apr 8, 2015
markb1 A battery size change is a significant platform change, in my opinion. If I had ordered an 85 after seeing this note, I would certainly be upset about the 70D.�
Apr 8, 2015
Zaxxon I sent an email to NASales urging them to reconsider the feature distribution.�
Apr 8, 2015
MsElectric I've already communicated this to our salesperson this morning�
Apr 8, 2015
bonaire Platform change might be longer wheelbase, more windows, T-Tops, etc. This is mainly a "fuel tank size" change, in my view. same car as the 85D with smaller fuel tank for less money. Are you saying that you didn't need 85D range and would be happy with 70D? I would expect there will be some buyers in that boat.�
Apr 8, 2015
gg_got_a_tesla Tesla, stop acting like the car dealers you and we despise
I ordered none of the premium stuff in the P85D in October. Power liftgate and Homelink - both are great features - would be tough to fork up $5k for; the rest is all fluff IMO.
And, absolutely agree with the comments about the "after incentives and gas savings" nonsense. Please be upfront with the pricing. Make the incentives show up clearly in the price list afterwards. Don't bring gas savings into the equation at all; those can be discussed in a non-Design Studio page.�
Apr 8, 2015
outdoors Canceled my X to get an 85D for the wife. Power liftgate for 5k because they bought too much Alacantra. I can unlock my car with a phone, but have a garage door opener as well taped to the back of my Iphone. What an idea. I think someone just likes to move the options around. No order till this is fixed. She is 5' 4".�
Apr 8, 2015
Gizmotoy Bold part cracked me up.:biggrin: What does that have to do with anything? Random sentence at the end of my comment.�
Apr 8, 2015
outdoors Ahh Power liftgate. Wait. Should it now come with a TESLA stool to stand on to close liftgate? Please re read post. If that cracks you up you must be easily amused.�
Apr 8, 2015
markb1 I'm talking about a hypothetical. I've been happy with my 60 for over two years. But, yes, the 70D's range would probably be sufficient for a lot of people who ordered the 85.�
Apr 8, 2015
Gizmotoy It was not clear that you intended the height to mean she would be incapable of opening the liftgate. You didn't mention anything at all about that, and the random height thrown in was several sentences removed from the last time you even mentioned the liftgate. Perhaps you need to reread the post. :biggrin:
To address your concern, she will have no issue whatsoever closing the manual liftgate. My wife, also 5'4", easily reaches the liftgate handle, which is directly adjacent to the close button if you have the power liftgate.�
Apr 8, 2015
TexasEV No, GPS-enabled Homelink is listed as standard on all cars now.
But let's keep the focus of this thread on how the pricing is displayed deceptively, not how options are packaged. How Tesla is displaying the price now is like a parody of car dealers, only they're serious.�
Apr 8, 2015
lorih I understand that you have a preferred method of showing costs to customers, and I agree that most prefer your method, but perhaps the title of this thread should be changed. Dealerships do a lot of horrible things, and I think this title is a bit overzealous. I clicked thinking Tesla was doing something illegal, but this is merely a marketing decision. All facts are on the page in question, just not in the format you would like them presented.
Not the same level as traditional dealerships that are current federal investigation, with some dealers facing jail time.�
Apr 8, 2015
Zaxxon That was fast. This was not the case when I made my prior post.�
Apr 8, 2015
TexasEV "Acting like the car dealers you and we despise" does not imply Tesla is doing something illegal. Lots of things car dealers do are sleazy, deceptive, misleading, whatever other pejorative you want to use, but may not be illegal. Displaying a headline price for a car that takes into account presumed gas savings over years fits that description. I'm as big a fan of Tesla as anyone, but frankly this is embarrassing. I stand by my thread title.
edit- to understand the quote and response, the phrase in quotes was the title I gave this thread before a moderator changed it�
Apr 8, 2015
Max* They changed it on the design page, but not on the spec sheet Model S | Tesla Motors�
Apr 8, 2015
Seattle I don't like the somewhat confusing conflation of discounts and lifetime savings compared to the actual price that a new owner pays. I think the reason this happens is they hire auto industry people and they JUST CAN'T STOP DOING IT. As a car owner and shareholder, please make a more honest price listing.�
Apr 8, 2015
MsElectric I think it is a valid point and I'm about the same height and need the power lift gate. Hopefully not for $5,000! Or else I guess I can always get a Tesla stool
Returning back to the thread topic, I agree with the OP completely that it is beyond ridiculous that they are listing random gasoline savings in the main price listed for the car. What if you only drive 6000 miles a year or currently own a leaf? They should list the actual cost of the car without playing games with the cost of the car.�
Apr 8, 2015
lorih
I do not disagree with the concept. I agree the gas savings should not be included but rather be an option to click where you enter numbers for your actual gas usage. My comment was the thread title was evocative and inflammatory. I was suggesting changing title to something appropriately addressing content. Perhaps like a title like "Why has Tesla gone back to including gas savings in price calculator?" As a bonus makes it easier to find on searches.
Many thread authors choose to use titles expressing OP emotions (positive or negative)rather than one descriptive of discussion, and it means you have to 'click' just to find out what the person is so excited (positive or negative) about. In this case it was chosen to be very emotionally negative instead of just saying, clearly that Tesla made a bad decision to show calculator this way.
My guess is the pricing calculator will be changed very soon. Calculator (briefly) a year or so ago included gas savings, and Elon addressed it in a shareholders confernce call and said calculator was adjusted so you had to input a number to include gas mileage savings if you wanted to compare monthly costs, but it was removed from default.
Someone in marketing most likely made a poor decision and it will most likely be remedied shortly. Very different to dealers that have documented history of charging different prices based on the gender or race of the customer. (not to mention other sleazy and/or illegal practices).�
Apr 8, 2015
Max* I agree, the prices threw me off for a split second, and I'll wait on ordering till the power lift gate is detached from the $5k package...�
Apr 8, 2015
timf There are still inconsistencies with Homelink packaging. If you look at the Specs page, it lists Homelink under Premium Package. However, if you look at the Design Studio it lists it as standard equipment. I think it's been this way since the updates were made this morning. I would guess it's intended to be standard, as it's primarily a software feature and everything else in the Premium Package is hardware related.�
Apr 8, 2015
JakeP Totally agreed, they need transparency on the pricing, not this TCO fluff. Sure, put in an optional TCO tab, but just be straight with us...if we wanted otherwise, we have plenty of Dealerships for that.
And totally agreed on the bundling of the liftgate and lighting options with the alcantara. Break those up already. When I toured the factory, the big stress was how nimble the robots were, and how different configs could be done on the same line at the same time, even RHD cars interspersed. So you can't simultaneously tell me that the bundling is required to increase production efficiency. PS, I have a degree in Industrial Engineering, and I thought your production efficiency was pretty darned brilliant, and appreciated how it was being monitored in real time.�
Apr 8, 2015
bonaire Pre-installed or packaged option-sets are a dealership thing. Allowing the customer to choose an option like the liftgate for maybe $1500 or 2000 versus a packaged deal seems more appropriate. JakeP's response is pretty good.
Tesla also uses very round numbers for options. 2500, 3000, 5000 and so on. This make it easy to read but a little suspect in terms of "just how much value are we getting for these round numbers". It kind of says to me that the options are "rounded up for better profits" (on said options).�
Apr 8, 2015
Johan I agree With other posters here. These bundles need to go, or at least make it so that in addition to any bundles it's possible to order each single type of option on it's own. Sure, if you want to create a "premium package" for 5k then go ahead, but also please break it down and give med the option of buying powered lift gate without lighting, for example. This is silly. I believe Tesla will change it soon enough.�
Apr 8, 2015
dsm363 mod note: Updated title to be more descriptive of thread content�
Apr 8, 2015
flankspeed8 I tweeted EM and TM asked them where my gas savings are going to come from since I already drive and EV. Bogus amounts such as "Gas Savings" have no business being in the pricing scheme especially since they are so arbitrary. I honestly expect better from Tesla and hope they will change this.�
Apr 8, 2015
stealthnhawk I am having a hard time convincing myself that I would save $10k of gas over 5 years.. I did calculation for my honda odyssey and it comes out the followings..
Annual Milages 12000 miles
Car MPG 21 mpg
Annual Gas 571.43 gallons
Gas Price $3.50 per gallon
Total Annual Gas $2,000.00 dollars
For 5 years, I would save $10k, but how about electricity?
I guess I am in CA and using $0.04 per mile.
Electric Per Mile $0.04 per mile
Total Annual Electric $480.00 dollars
For years, it would cost me $2400.
So my net saving would be $7600.. hm..�
Apr 8, 2015
dsm363 Doesn't Tesla still list 'Cash Price' without gas savings and incentives to the right directly below that amount?�
Apr 8, 2015
markb1 Here are Tesla's assumptions:
In my case, I get a lot less than 10% of my power from superchargers, and my electricity costs 16-18 cents/kWh, depending on season (and those are the super off-peak rates on my time-of-use plan).
They don't say what Wh/mile they are using, but I suspect I use a lot more energy per mile, too.�
Apr 8, 2015
bonaire Yes, but people have to move their eyes to get there. Someone needs to implement a web site auto-pilot to push the eyes directly to the actual pricing.
- - - Updated - - -
Yes they do. Scroll down the page to the bottom of the Design Studio.
Look under "Gasoline Savings".
- based on $3.90/gallon in a 20mpg car for 15,000 miles a year
- based on .12/kWh delivered electricity (however, do they factor in charging-losses from the grid as well? Takes more than 95 kWh to refill an 85)
I personally have .17/kWh and premium here is $2.95 or lower.
1 year of 3.90 gas is $2,925 for 15,000 miles
15,000 miles on an EV at .12/kWh is about $600 (plus charging losses).
Annual savings $2,325. Five years is $11,625 or about 10,000
In my neighborhood, 2.90 gas and .17/kWh
$2175/yr gas
$850/yr elec.
$6625 savings over 5 yr
If you have solar and an EV - you are basically fueling at home and the ratio of savings grows, making ROI of a Solar PV array somewhat shorter.�
Apr 8, 2015
dsm363 The gas savings should be a user entered option only where you input average mpg and cost of gas.�
Apr 8, 2015
markb1 I quoted that section in my message. Where does is give their Wh/mile assumption? It only gives their price for energy assumption.�
Apr 8, 2015
bonaire There is very little "guidance" from any auto maker in terms of kWh per mile - but a rough number is either 3 miles per kWh or slightly less. For almost any EV driving in a steady-state. If you are doing green-light launches or going up steep hills, it is less. Some people have gotten 200 or less miles out of an 85 pack going, something like 85 mph, on the highway. Others going 40 mph down country roads - well over 260 miles.
The gas computation in the USA is not that strong. But in Europe, if a country has .20/kWh electric and $8.00 gallon gas, works out great. Even better in Quebec, about .07/kWh and $4.50 gasoline. Pretty good ratio. Live near a supercharger? Great compare.�
Apr 8, 2015
TexasEV Dave, maybe it's more descriptive but the point of my title was that Tesla is acting like a sleazy car dealer when they show the headline car price with "gas savings". It doesn't help when we're trying to differentiate the Tesla sales model from the franchised dealer model. Tesla needs to keep the high ground and not stoop to their level.�
Apr 8, 2015
Kbsilver Agree this is way too expensive for what you are getting unless it also included leather. The power liftgate should be included in the base price of the car for safety reasons. It should not cost $5000 to get this option which for shorter individuals may be a requirement not being able to reach the open hatch.�
Apr 8, 2015
ecarfan Yes but the default price shown and bolded/highlighted at the top of the box on the right is the "after incentives and gas savings". That is deceptive. It's just not right.�
Apr 8, 2015
dsm363 Agree. At least it's not listed at all like they used to do. They still shouldn't list gas savings.�
Apr 8, 2015
lorih
You can call me naive, but I do not think the intention was to mislead the way the franchise dealers do. I think they were attempting to reach non-EV owners and wanted them to consider that the upfront costs would be partially offset by the savings on gas. I think this was a poor assumption. many folks already own Ev's, and most folks consider both upfront costs and ongoing cost when making large purchases. I think this was just a poor business decision, which I would bet will be changed shortly. (Again, I point out they used this tool when they first released leasing program, then removed gas saving default in calculator, and Elon spoke about trejo ing this default during a quarterly conference call a while back).
It is actually the fact that I do hold Tesla to a higher standard and have followed them closely enough and long enough to know that they do make mistakes, but the also address those, and Elon does believe in putting customers first.
i think someone in product marketing made a bad business decision, but to me that does not justify calling them sleezy.
Perhaps it has something to do with world view. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt before jumping to conclusions. Mind you, I do have a temper, but I personally don't feel the need to equate one of the most customer centric car companies that produces one (and some would say arguably the best) car in the world with sleazy car dealers because of one poor decision on a webpage the first day of a product release.
as for the title of this thread, I hold that descriptive titles are in general better in all cases on this forum. It allows us to know in advance which threads we want to participate in.
I respect that you feel strongly, and I respect your right to discuss this here. Never intended any censorship. Just trying to point out how unhelpful any type of emotive titles are in the context of this forum. In fact, I support descriptive titles, with detailed (often emotional) discussions following, just not in the title.�
Apr 8, 2015
MsElectric For what it's worth I explained this to a couple of non EV enthusiasts this evening and they both used the word "sleazy" to express their opinion on this matter so I agree with the OP with how he named the thread. Something is wrong when you see a "teaser" price of $57,500 for the S70D but when you try to buy it, oh no, it is actually $75,000.
IMHO Tesla did themselves a huge disservice with the pricing that some people are calling sleazy and then then the whole mess with moving the lift gate closer to the "$5,000 Alcantara Package" was also a bad idea. The good thing is that they can both be fixed very quickly by listing the actual price of the car as they should have from the beginning and either reducing the cost of the Alcantara Package to something like $2,500 or moving the power lift gate out of that package.
�
Apr 8, 2015
RAW84 Just want to add that I agree with the sentiment of this thread.
Not only does including gas savings and other ancillary "savings" come off as sleezy to someone looking at the car for the first time, it becomes an annoyance to those seriously considering purchasing who are then running the financials for their own situation. At least that's how it was for me. I thought Tesla had heard this feedback before and moved away from this nonsense, it's a bit disheartening to see it's coming back.
I think it's fair to list the emboldened price including incentives with the appropriate asterisk, because that's a certain offset and easily added back in to the price. Other savings should be on a separate TCO tab.�
Apr 9, 2015
bob_p Concur with others on this thread.
Tesla has a reputation (confirmed by Consumer Reports) of building a great car with satisfied customers.
The latest website is a return to the unnecessarily deceptive advertising that appears to indicate that the entry level car cost $57,500 - when the cash price is actually $76,200 - almost $20,000 more.
If you display the "spec sheet" for the base 70D - it lists the car cost at $67,500 (including the $7500 federal tax credit) and does list the additional $1200 charges - so the spec sheet is more reasonable.
Admittedly (as per analysis in another thread), the Model S is still relatively expensive compared to competitive models in the same price class - and the tax credits help to bring the Model S in line with the other cars.
But adding the hypothetical savings - especially since gas prices have dropped considerably from the $3.90 per gallon listed on the page - is unrealistic and could be perceived as a deceptive trade practice.
And by going back to this unrealistic apparent "list price" for the cars, are they giving more ammunition to the dealers association in their battle against Tesla's ability to sell cars directly in each state?�
Apr 9, 2015
Zarwin There are plenty of deliberately misleading car advertising techniques, and I seriously doubt the intention is to mislead here, but... one technique I've seen referenced is to advertise an amazing price for a car and then in small print somewhere under the ad list "after $5,000 deposit". There are parallels to that deliberately sleazy and deceptive practice, intention or not.�
Apr 9, 2015
ToddRLockwood I don't have any problem with this. The Cash Price is right there, just below the price with incentives included. Most customers are first-time buyers, and they tend to use the incentives as a rationale for spending more than they normally would on an automobile. Didn't you?
An improvement is that now the the Cash Price is the default, rather than the monthly lease payment.�
Apr 9, 2015
smsprague I have to agree that this is very deceptive. Tesla is also hiding it's destination fees. Just for fun I went and did a build on a Cadillac. At the end you see all the pricing right in front of you including destination. Some non Tesla owners (work associates) and I where looking at the new models. They all got a big laugh at the assumption of a $10,000 gas savings. Granted everyone was an engineer so it turned into a great discussion of all the assumptions Tesla must be making and why it's a joke.�
Jul 25, 2015
yobigd20 Tesla is still up to their unscrupulous/deceptive advertising/prices with their "after gas savings" on their new home page:
�
Jul 25, 2015
jeffro01 I guess I'm in the minority on this one, I find that approach to be vital to how the car is presented past the early adopters and the EV fans. I think it's extremely important that Tesla keeps hammering home the fuel savings, even while gas is "cheap" again because we all know we're one middle eastern conflict away from $5+ per gallon gas.
Jeff�
Jul 25, 2015
AnOutsider Well at least it's big and clear that it's after gas savings.�
Jul 25, 2015
S'toon You don't see an ICE car as advertised as a price + gas, so it's deceptive to advertise as a price - gas. That's not what you're paying.�
Jul 25, 2015
mspisars I find it more annoying then deceptive, the text is pretty darn clear, it is just not what I am looking for when trying to get what it will cost me.�
Jul 25, 2015
jerry33 The problem is that people are not used to thinking in terms of total cost of ownership when purchasing a car. Price minus gas is probably the simplest way to accomplish that. (The other way would be to list comparable cars and add their fuel cost in a tabular format, but because the cost of a car depends on the options chosen and the discount given, there would be just as many complaints.)�
Jul 25, 2015
omarsultan I don't have a problem with them doing this--the caveat is clearly stated and you can back out the gas savings on the order page. As @jerry33 noted, part of driving EV adoption is to get folks to consider cost of ownership both total and monthly, not just the cost of acquisition. Granted I am a corner case in that I am a high milage driver but my fuel savings are significant. Between a TOU EV rate at home, free charging at work and Supercharging, it costs me about $50 of electricity to drive ~2500 miles per month. Meanwhile it costs me $70 to fill the tank on my wife's Jeep once.�
Jul 25, 2015
Chuq I'm not a fan of having a dollar amount in big numbers, followed by "after incentives and gas savings" - for the sole reason that it will destroy Tesla's reputation with the non-enthusiasts. Their non-dealership model and (from all reports) the way their sales staff treat potential customers has gone a long way to separate them from the "untrustworthy car salesmen" type. Include the "after gas savings" figure by all means, but the *actual* cost should be just as prominent.�
Jul 26, 2015
dsm363 Exactly. This is hardly deceptive. Sure you have to dig a little deeper to find out what they are assuming to get that value but that's not hard.�
Jul 26, 2015
dsm363 The price is clear if you spend a few minutes doing research and is on the order page before you reserve the car.�
Jul 26, 2015
yobigd20 lol if anyone's a corner case it's me - typically 4000+ miles/month and I came from a Range Rover �voque getting 19mpg on premium fuel. So far I've got 75k miles and I've probably saved about $20,000 between gas savings and green pass toll discounts so far. And I still don't agree with Tesla's deceptive advertising on cost. They need to show what somebody pays for the loan per month, not the loan minus fuel savings. The amount of money for the car itself doesn't go down. You're still paying the full amount for the car every month. If I could subtract my previous monthly gas payment out of what i per per month for the car that'd be great but it's fantasy la la land per tesla mindset. My loan doesn't magically go down. I'm not paying 575/month for the car. More like $1222.12/month. I'd love to just pay 575 a month but that's just pure Tesla BS.�
Jul 26, 2015
Matteo I think the problem has to do with how the information is displayed. There is a huge difference between these two:
Option A: Display actual price under car models. In addition, display price after savings in a smaller font.
Option B: Don't display actual price under car models. Just display the price after savings in bold font and make the fine print hard to read by making it lighter and smaller than other text.
It looks like the website is trying to trick you by not displaying actual price under car models and by making the fine print difficult to read.
There are other problems with the order page. For example look what it says here:
There are two problems with this statement:
1. The overall warranty on the car is 4 years and 50,000 miles. The buyer is eventually going to find out this information. When that happens this will be a little surprise moment for the buyer. These kind discovery moments are memorable. People don't forget these easily. They will remember this website as the misleading website where they had a bad discovery.
2. The infinite mile warranty does not include degradation. As long as the car drives, the warranty doesn't apply. In comparison both BMW and Nissan warranty includes degradation. Again this is a bad discovery. Also the warranty document is very hidden. To actually see it, you have to do the following:
1. Go to Tesla Motors | Premium Electric Vehicles
2. Click on "Model S"
3. Click on "Specs"
4. Scroll down and click on "All specifications"
5. Scroll down and click the link where it says "8 year, unlimited mile battery and drive unit warranty" and go to page 5
The problem is, in the order page it says "infinite mile warranty" implying that you can drive as much as you want for 8 years without worrying about the battery.�
Jul 26, 2015
dsm363 Every product has caveats to their warranty. That's why when you buy something this expensive you read and ask questions.
On the order page:
�
Jul 26, 2015
davidc18 +1 - these cute website tricks may be okay with the early adopter crowd, but I predict that they will NOT go over well the the general public that may be interested in the follow on vehicles. Actually, I find them pretty disappointing myself. My understanding is that the company has a history of over promising and under delivering which has been acceptable because the Service Centers have been delivering exceptional service to the current owners. Will this continue if the company gets anywhere near their stated sales goals??? I am worried (as an owner and tesla advocate) that they will not. I hope they can pull it off.�
Jul 26, 2015
TexasEV I don't agree with your statement that the company has a history of overpromising and under delivering. The product is even better than promised. The timelines aren't as fast as we're told but the product has always been worth the wait. Problems you read here about center consoles or lighted visors or whatever are trivial compared to what Tesla has accomplished.�
Jul 26, 2015
eye.surgeon The whole price after gas savings smacks of cheap car salesmanship. If they're really interested in presenting the actual cost of ownership, why not have a "price after gas savings + your insurance rate doubling + new 22 inches tires every year" price.
I'm a big boy. Tell me what the car costs and I can do my own math, thanks.�
Jul 26, 2015
dsm363 It's clear as day right below that disputed number and about an inch above the big red 'Order' button on the order page. Of all the controversies this really should be at the bottom of the list.�
Jul 26, 2015
eye.surgeon It's not that the price can't be seen. It's the perception, in my mind, that Tesla is playing the cheap price tricks of conventional auto manufacturers -- anybody up for a $99/month Jetta lease? What, the actual price is right there in the small print including the $6,000 due at signing.�
Jul 26, 2015
dsm363 If there was a * next to the price or you had to go to a different page where it was hidden in small print I'd agree. I'd hardly say that is the case here. As I posted in the images earlier in this thread it is in the exact same font size directly below this disputed number so no tricks. People can look down 2 inches and go "oh, I see the real price now" and do a little thinking. They may save more or less than Tesla's estimate.�
Jul 26, 2015
ViperDoc I don't really care if they advertise this way, but I have to chuckle. When I first put a deposit down on a Model S in late 2010 before they were released, they tried to convince me to just get a Roadster and then trade it in for the Model S. They guy on the phone seriously tried to sell me by pointing out the gas savings. I just laughed. At the monthly cost on the loan, the savings in gas would be a drop in the bucket. There were a lot of reasons to consider a Roadster, and about 7 months later, I did get a Roadster, but trying to claim I was "saving money on gas" was not a cogent argument!�
Jul 26, 2015
dsm363 They sold it to me because it's saves 50% on windshield wipers. 50%! How can you not jump at that deal�
Jul 26, 2015
evme As long as the final price is visible on the order page, which it is now. Tesla should continue doing what they are doing.
The importance of getting people to think about fuel costs is more important than a few blind people who can't read getting upset.
I will also disagree that this tactic is like a car salesman. Quite the opposite, how many car salesmen will give you the TCO of a car? I would argue the car salesman often times hides the true cost to own of a car and may make a gas guzzer seem cheap upfront but consumer will lose out on the gas.
Pushing people towards considering ownership cost is the right way to go. As long as they also list the actual price on the order page (which they do). There is also no pressure to buy so you have no excuse for not taking the time to read.�
Jul 26, 2015
dsm363 And it's not like when you order you get to write a check for $10,000 less than the cost of the car. Then Tesla delivers the car and asks for the $10,000 in savings you didn't know about. When you buy the car you pay the full cash amount. At that point I would hope 100% of people put 2 and 2 together.�
Jul 26, 2015
tkizzy I agree. In so many ways Tesla are a "glass of icewater in hell," but such gimmicks don't help their brand. As the company gets bigger, incumbent auto-industry execs come on board, and incumbent ooze starts seeping into Tesla's pores. Happens with all companies...Google, Apple, etc.
I understand options pricing comes from a business perspective and average margins etc, but it would be great if Tesla remained a product-focused company. Make the right product at the right price and demand/profit should follow. Why is autopilot 2500/3000 dollars when the hardware is clearly included, and the features it has are pretty prominently promoted as a "Tesla thing" not a "If you get this option thing." Someone who isn't knee deep in Tesla lore might be forgiven for thinking their car can park itself because of their over-zealous promises. Such over-promising is forgivable if, when the features are finally available, everyone with the necessary hardware gets them. If not it's a double-slap-in-the-face to their reputation.
How much can a power liftgate cost them anyway? Tesla should make as many of the cool features standard as possible at the current entry-level prices. If the entry price was significantly lower, such nickel and diming would be understandable but at a realistic entry level price of around 80,000 after all fees etc, it would be great if they just made every Tesla great. Especially software-limited features.
It would be awesome if options were more about aesthetic and material choices and priced accordingly - eg interior color/trim materials. The ideal is for every Tesla to have the same tech. That would be unique to the auto-industry, and Tesla is the perfect company to champion this approach.�
Jul 26, 2015
snooper77 It's definitely wrong to subtract gas price from the car price. Does a Tesla become cheaper just because another propelling mechanism, namely gas cars, are more expensive?
No. They might as well claim buying a Tesla *makes* you money just because flying an airplane for the same mileage is much more expensive.
What they really should do is tell us that owning a gas car for the same mileage costs xxx USD *more* than a Tesla. But not the other way around.�
Jul 26, 2015
stopcrazypp I think the current compromise is okay. Before, I believe you had to click another button to show the actual price. I don't think a person actually seriously ordering a car would be misled (because they will look more closely), but I have seen examples of people who took only a cursory glance think that the MSRP of the car is actually $10k lower than what it is because of the gas savings thing (although it might be during the previous design).
Elon however, has said the gas savings thing is staying.�
Jul 27, 2015
dsm363 The fact that people buy a 15mpg car and then freak out when gas prices spike proves that total cost of ownership is not a factor in their decision. If Tesla has to highlight this to get people to think about it then that's not a bad thing. As long as they are upfront what the actual cash price is (they are) then it's a non-issue.�
Jul 27, 2015
TomServo In the ICE world what would be the equivalent advertising, and how would that be viewed?�
Jul 27, 2015
Chuq In Australia car prices are advertised as "drive away no more to pay" - that is, the cost advertised includes the car, all taxes, registration, delivery fees, etc.�
Oct 19, 2015
Troy This seems to be fixed now. I think the change happened today. Maybe the topic title can be updated.�
Oct 19, 2015
OverZealous It's still showing at the top of the design studio for me:
�
Oct 19, 2015
Troy The right panel is fine. That was never the problem. The problem was when it used to show the low price under each model without showing the actual price. For example, 85D base price is $85,000 and it used to show $67,500. Notice how "After incentives and gas savings" had a lighter font color. It was very misleading and looked like a cheap bait and switch tactic.
�
Oct 19, 2015
jborak Yeah, I would've paid 1k just for black headliner, I didn't need all of the other premium interior packages features. A few other car companies do the same thing when it comes to black headliner. That's the only sore point I have. I also don't know why $2500 for next generation leather seats when BMW charges $1400 for their leather seats.
I think there's still an "early buyer" premium Tesla uses. But if you're enthusiastic about EVs and Tesla you'll pay it, like most of us did
�
Oct 19, 2015
OverZealous I'm not sure I see the difference: if you click between the main packages, the price on the right switches from $57K to $67K to $87K: the "gas savings and incentives" are still rolled into the first price you see. Then you finally scroll down and it's suddenly $17K more.
Just pointing out that they haven't really "fixed" it. Hell, I'd argue it's worse, because you can't even compare the difference in base price between the 3 major models.�
Oct 19, 2015
green1 The part that really confuses me, is that they don't build cars "on spec" like normal manufacturers, they wait until you order it. They also brag about how advanced and automated their factory is. As such, it should be dead simple for them to implement true choice of every individual option. A system as advanced as Tesla claims their production line to be, shouldn't care about groups of options, and should be able to make each car truly custom.�
Oct 19, 2015
jaguar36 Sure you can, just click between each model, very quick and easy.�
Oct 19, 2015
Troy The difference is best expressed here:
Source: http://teslaclubsweden.se/open-letter-to-mr-elon-musk/
The previous version was terribly misleading. Somebody who opened the page could easily think the base price of the 85D was $67,500 without any options. That's how configurators work. Each option that you select has a price tag. For example, autopilot price on the configurator is $2,500, dual motors is $5,000, base price of 85D is $67,500. That's how it was displayed. That's what it means when you put a price to selectable options. Anybody who has ever done online shopping would read the previous page like that. But then when people spent a little extra time to look around they would suddenly notice the $67,500 car is actually $85,000. They would have a poor impression of Tesla. They might even think Tesla is a dishonest company that likes to display one price and then charging another while using cheap tactics like faded fonts. People were ashamed to show the web page to friends. Now, it's fine because it shows the actual price more prominently.
One improvement they could make is to reduce the font size of low price. It shouldn't be same size as the actual price. The current version is not prefect but much better than before.�
Oct 19, 2015
redi Don't worry... At least they are consistent and continue to deduct these savings when they value your Model S as a trade-in.�
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