Mar 6, 2012
3lectronica Model S Specs and Standard Features | Tesla Motors
Warranty
4 year or 50,000 mile, whichever comes first, new vehicle limited warranty
40 kWh battery has a 8 year or 100,000 mile, whichever comes first, warranty�
Mar 6, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Cool! Par for the course, I suppose, for the class.�
Mar 6, 2012
Trnsl8r Curious what level of battery degradation is considered "normal wear and tear" and what would be "failure" under the warranty. There must have some sort of line between the two?�
Mar 6, 2012
onlinespending Right. Would be nice to see the specifics of the battery warranty.�
Mar 6, 2012
Norbert Did it already show the "Tire pressure monitoring system" before?�
Mar 6, 2012
smoothoperator Warranty will probably only cover defects in the battery and not degradation at all....that is a slippery slope for Tesla if they start to warranty batteries due to degradation....�
Mar 6, 2012
NigelM Yes. Check here.�
Mar 6, 2012
Rifleman It is a slippery slope, but one that tesla needs to tread on. Right or wrong, most people are not convinced that EV batteries will be useful 5+ years after they rolled off the line. This will especially be critical on the 40kw, as it does not have the range to spare to loose 50% of its milage after a few years. Tesla needs to promise a certain optimal range for the 8 years, and if the Model S is unable to reach that target within the timeframe, the battery needs to be repaired or replaced. This is what it will take for the average joe to be willing to part with his ICE and go with a Tesla.�
Mar 6, 2012
smoothoperator That is true but Tesla has to be profitable with this vehicle....It is impossible for Tesla to promise an optimal range, because the degradation of these batteries depend heavily on factors that they cannot control.
For example if an individual were to run their roadster constantly in performance mode (not sure if there will be an equivalent for the Model S) should Tesla foot the bill for the battery degrading quicker than someone who never uses this mode? Its a highly subjective thing based on a bunch of factors that the manufacturer cannot control....If there is a defect in the battery that is causing it to lose charge then that is something different.�
Mar 6, 2012
dmckinstry I'm reasonably sure that they'll be able to examine charging history, etc. They should give specific information as to what is allowed for the warranty to be completely honored.�
Mar 6, 2012
Robert.Boston Agreed, @dmckinstry. The devil is in the fine print, for both the vehicle and the battery warranty.�
Mar 6, 2012
dsm363 I thought they promised something like 70% capacity at 7 years for the Roadster at least but not sure if that was in the warranty or just what they talked about in public as their goal.�
Mar 6, 2012
onlinespending Right, but then Tesla needs to come up with some number that they stand behind so that for anomalous cases, the battery would be covered by the warranty, even if it is slightly tilted to protect themselves. If they say that the battery capacity should be no less than 70% after 8 years, then good. Then I'll know if my battery degrades to say 50% after only 5 years, I'll be protected by the warranty.
This is a new technology with a lot of doubters about the battery tech. Tesla needs to be as clear and precise with the terms of the battery warranty so as to instill confidence in its prospective buyers. This actually only serves to benefit them as it would remove some of the uncertainty with the purchase and would promote more sales.�
Mar 6, 2012
stopcrazypp There is no battery warranty out there that covers degradation of capacity. This applies to the Leaf and Volt also. Therefore, it is unlikely that Tesla will cover it in the warranty. Companies may specify some targets publicly (for example the 70% capacity mentioned by dsm363), but the actual warranty terms don't cover it.
The Leaf warranty makes it very explicit:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/images/f/fe/2012-leaf-warranty-booklet.pdf
The only spec the battery warranty really covers is power. This is to guarantee the car can perform the same way it did from factory (for example for the Leaf, the battery must be able to provide enough power for the 80kW motor plus whatever accessories before the warranty is over).�
Mar 6, 2012
brianman "It's irrelevant on the Leaf though. 'Everybody says' you can just leave it unplugged for eternity and it will never become a brick."
/sarcasm�
Mar 7, 2012
Norbert Thanks!�
Mar 12, 2012
neroden So the battery warranty lasts twice as long as the car warranty?
Seriously, I'm much more likely to discover warrantied problems in other parts of the car (the air suspension? the brakes? the door handles? the charge port door?) than in the battery. I think it's time to start seeing what they charge for extended warranty.�
Mar 12, 2012
ckessel Many cars have a much longer power train warranty than the warranty on the rest of the car. The battery is essentially part of the power train if you want to think of it that way.�
Mar 12, 2012
smoothoperator Smart move with the labor rate Tesla charges ($175/hr) extended warranty may be almost essential for any Tesla vehicle.�
Mar 12, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla And from past experience with Acura, BMW and Mini, extending the 4 year warranty to 7 years would (should?) cost ~$2K.�
Mar 12, 2012
Trnsl8r Keep in mind that the battery is the most expensive part of the car to replace.�
Mar 12, 2012
neroden Lucky bastards. In germany you'll get 2 years warranty for your BMW no matter what. An pay 50% more. NOT including VAT.�
Mar 12, 2012
neroden Actually, if there are failures in the aluminum frame due to bad welds, that would be by *far* the most expensive part of the car to replace, due to labor costs alone. Remember the guy who had his Roadster front end completely replaced days before the warranty expired....�
Mar 12, 2012
dsm363 With labor and Ranger costs to consider, I'd pay that price for an extended warranty. Of course, knowing Tesla, they might charge an arm and a leg instead, but I hope not.�
Mar 12, 2012
Robert.Boston The Roadster extended warranty was $5,000 so hopefully it's less than that. $2,000 would definitely be worth it.�
Mar 12, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Hmm, extending the warranty on my wife's BMW 535 cost nearly $6k.�
Mar 12, 2012
tnawara Wow! Quite a ripoff; wouldn't it be cheaper to fix problems most of which would be minor? My experience was with a 2005 325i.�
Mar 12, 2012
Robert.Boston Of course, extended warranty cost depends on when you get it. Was the $6K right before the original warranty expired?�
Mar 13, 2012
Yggdrasill Yes -- it's comprehensive, bumper-to-bumper, doubling the original warranty. This car has had a lot of work done on it, and I'm not convinced we're done. And, every time BMW does anything meaningful, the bill seems to have 4 digits in it (which then go away). Parts and service is a huge money-maker for these dealerships -- no wonder they are uninterested in selling EVs!�
Aug 1, 2012
Robert.Boston Interesting. I think it's unfortunate that Tesla doesn't try to be better than the competition when it comes to the warranty terms. The way the warranties are phrased means that Tesla can argue that even if the battery is at 1% capacity and 1% power after 1 year, this wouldn't have occured if the battery hadn't been used, so it's not covered. I think Tesla really needs to show people that they actually stand by their product, and set firm limits based on their projections. Even a fairly minimal limit of 60% energy capacity/60% power would be better than nothing.
My prediction: Either Tesla will have to replace any battery significantly worse than 70% at the end of the warranty period, or, they need to set aside a good chunk of money for lawyers, to disprove that battery degredation for each specific battery was not a result of an inherent defect. Either way, Tesla will have to spend money on the issue, but the money isn't spent in a way that furthers EV adoption. Only firm limits can do that.�
Aug 2, 2012
Yggdrasill IANAL, but I believe that battery degradation that is markedly worse than standard profiles would, absent some proof of negligence to the battery, be covered under the warranty under normal interpretation of US law. The only way that a battery could degrade so much more quickly was because it was defective.�
Aug 2, 2012
bonnie The way the warranty is phrased is ambiguous enough that it's more likely than not that you will see court cases. If someone has 70% after 4 years/100 000 miles, that would be more degradation than one would expect, but is the battery defective?
What about the Model S taxis? A taxi can travel more than 500 000 miles in 8 years. If the battery dies before 8 years have passed, will Tesla say "The Battery, like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual energy or power loss with time and use. Loss of Battery energy or power over time or due to or resulting from Battery usage, is NOT covered". Technically, they're not saying that the battery must have any energy storage capacity left... I think Tesla has really dropped the ball on the battery warranty terms. Even if Tesla is the nicest company in the world and consideres basically everything a defect to be replaced under warranty, and there's not a single issue with a single Model S battery, anyway, the warranty terms are pretty bad. They will draw a lot of negative attention, just as the Nissan Leaf warranty has drawn a lot of negative attention. (The Nissan Leaf warranty has drawn a lot of negative publicity here in Norway, at least.)
If Tesla wants to replace every fossil car with an electric car, they need to be focusing on important stuff like battery degradation, not trivial stuff like rear seat lighting and whatnot. Actually, the way Tesla has (not) handled the warranty issue makes me nervous to buy a Tesla. It seems more and more like a conscious evasion, and that they're hoping no one will notice that the warranty terms are such that you will get a new battery under warranty if, and only if, Tesla is in the mood to give you a new battery. If battery degradation is for every Model S battery greater than expected over time (something you can't quickly replicate in a lab), Tesla will back slowly away from the Model S and say "battery degradation is to be expected", and then you're out of luck. If you thought you were investing in a car that would provide you for transportation for many years, well, you were wrong.�
Aug 2, 2012
Yggdrasill Roadster owners have not experienced a problem with Tesla regarding needed battery replacements. So while in theory, you have a point - in practice, it's not how they have operated. You forget they have a proven track record on this issue.�
Aug 2, 2012
jerry33 As tesla has a proven track record, why are they afraid to give firm numbers for battery capacity?
The question may or may not be valid, but it will certainly resonate with mainstream buyers.�
Aug 2, 2012
bonnie Presumably because battery degradation depends on usage and environment. I'm sure that someone who floors the car at every start is going to have a different battery degradation rate than someone who drives to the energy metre (to take two of the outlier cases).
I doubt it's because their afraid. More likely it's because for the numbers to be accurate they would have to provide a long list of conditions vs. warrantied battery life. This would probably turn more people off ("Oh, yeah, Tesla has a battery warranty but there are so many conditions attached that they might as well not have one") than the current ambiguous statements, which are similar to every other EV.�
Aug 2, 2012
SCW-Greg Why do you assume they are 'afraid'? As Jerry notes, there are plenty of reasons dependent upon driving record. How would you have them word something like that?�
Aug 2, 2012
AnOutsider Trying to warranty a specific level of wear on the battery, is like trying to warranty a specific level of wear on an engine, or a set of tires. Don't think I've ever seen that happen before.�
Aug 2, 2012
bonnie But... but... Tesla is supposed to be DIFFERENT!�
Aug 2, 2012
RubberToe Too subtle.�
1/1/2015
guest An observation concerning batteries and the travails of being an "early adopter". I purchased the 160th Honda Insight manufactured in January 2000. My first large battery died in early 2004, which Honda replaced free of charge, including both the battery control module and the motor control module. It was covered under warranty at the time. Speculation was that the software was depleting the battery down too far for increased performance (sticker said 70MPG highway!), which shortened the life. My second battery died in June 2011, so it lasted 7 years. Honda retails the battery for $2,700 and a private outfit in New Jersey will sell you a "BetterBattery" replacement for $1,800. Honda was gracious enough to sell me my 3rd battery for $900, not sure why, maybe cause I'm a good customer, maybe cause there were so few Insight's sold that it doesn't matter. The car has a total of 125,000 miles after 12+ years as of today.
My understanding is that the Prius line in general doesn't suffer from the same level of battery "required replacement" issues that Honda has, for whatever reason. Surely there are scholarly studies you could find on the web that go into detail. I realize that the Model S uses Lithium versus Nickel, so we are dealing with a different animal here. Having said that, batteries are a tough product to perfect, lots of variables go into what their lifetimes will be. If your cell phone runs longer than 2 years without serious degradation, you are on the higher end of the curve, at least thats my experience.
Moral of the story is that if you are an "early adopter", as all Model S buyers are, there are certain risks involved. The Roadster certainly "bought down" some level of risk concerning the batteries. I would agree with the previous poster who was looking for more clarity concerning the battery warranty. The Insight message boards (yes they existed back in the stone age) eventually turned into "battery warranty/replacement" discussion boards, and continue to this day as I found out when I had to discover the BetterBattery. Hopefully Tesla gets the battery "right", whatever that ends up meaning over time.
The other software stuff mentioned on the punch list I wouldn't be too worried about. As a software guy, I can tell you that software problems can be fixed with new revisions, as there will be many over time I'm sure with the Model S. I would love to get a Model S, and may do so if finances allow when my Insight finally dies. Until then, I just live vicariously through others on this forum. And as a Tesla investor I hope to see the company and it's customers do well. I suspect that you will be hearing/reading more about the battery and it's warranty over time, and I will certainly keep my fingers crossed that someone who can build spaceships can get a battery right.
RT�
Aug 2, 2012
stopcrazypp I think this is the best answer. Because wear is highly dependent on usage, it becomes an issue how you should design that warranty. Should you warranty for the average case and take the risk of lots of costly warranty replacements (even for those only slightly worse than average)? Or should you warranty only for the worse case and then be disadvantaged in advertising (people would assume that is the average case, naysayers would assume best case).
There's also two types of wear: calendar wear (dependent on storage temperature and SOC) and cycle wear (dependent on discharge/charge rates, temperature, and SOC window).�
Aug 2, 2012
Johan I agree with both of you, i.e. I too think the if the wording in the original post about battery warranty is supposed to be all that Tesla says about battery warranty then it seems weak. On the other hand it would seem from the experiences with Roadsters that have been driven both very long and hard (and experiencing less battery degradation than expected) implies that this should not be an issue. On the other hand, the cells in the Model S battery are newer and therefore an upgraded chemistry, and the battery pack as a whole with the cooling etc. is a new design. I expect it to work well for many years, but a warranty is for the unexpected, an insurance for the consumer. Bear in mind that we are paying a lot for this car, and a whole lot of that is the battery. I would think that Tesla would/should have a "fine print" regarding what is considered normal/acceptable battery usage. Maybe not of interest for the average consumer to read but nonetheless I feel it is something that you as a consumer should be able to know before your purchase. For example, where I live many cell phone operators have monthly packages with "Unlimited calls, SMS and data" but when you read the fine print there is a "fair usage policy" that says something like: not more than 4000 minutes of phonecalls, no more than 5000 SMS, if more than 10 Gb of data then speed is reduced to 128kb/s for the rest of the month. Tesla should create their own "fair usage policy" for the car and battery. For example:
- How much can you super-charge (we know this is more of a strain to the battery)?
- Unlimited miles with the 85kW battery ofcourse means unlimited miles, but something like a taxi might be excluded under the "fair usage policy" (maybe only for personal use?)
- What if you race the car on a race track 200 days a year - is that within "normal use" (you will have a lot of charge-decharge cycles but relatively few miles)?
- An even more extreme example of "unfair" battery usage: someone (through some contraption) makes a system where you charge the battery at night (low rate) and then feed it back during peak-hours, basically the cars just sits in the garage and makes money, 0 miles but a lot of charge-decharge cycles.
Maybe miles is not a very good variable for the warranty (for the 40kW and 65kW)? Perhaps the total ammount of kW charged-decharged is a better measure? Or simpler: total number of "full" recharges?
For me I think the most important question is: How much can you Supercharge (and/or other forms of quick charge) before it voids the warranty?�
Aug 2, 2012
pguerra Yes overall it's a little on the positive side. So what does "unlimited miles" mean on the 85kw battery warranty?�
Aug 2, 2012
brianman Upper limit calculation below.
Assuming your efficiency is identical to that of driving 55 mph steady, you eat+drink while driving, and you relieve+sleep while recharging...
Consumption
55.00
miles/hour
300.00
miles/charge
5.45
hours/charge
Charging
24.00
hours/day
4.72
hours/charge
Continuous Usage
10.17
hours/cycle
2.36
cycles/day
861.84
cycles/year
6,894.75
cycles/warranty
2,068,426.04
miles/warranty
�
Aug 2, 2012
CapitalistOppressor ^^ There is no court in the U.S. that would accept a massively degraded battery over the course of a year as anything less than a defect, unless Tesla could prove abuse. It's more of an open question as to what happens if you are at 60% in your 8th year.�
Aug 2, 2012
CapitalistOppressor Negative speculation, heaped on negative speculation. Battery technology is what it is. Nobody is going to warranty degradation until we have years of experience with it. But there are a large number of issues that can happen with a battery that have nothing to do with degradation, and that IS covered under the warranty.�
Aug 2, 2012
CapitalistOppressor Just what it means. I would presume that the warranty does not cover commercial use, but for personal use you can drive to the moon and back and still be in warranty.
The practical reason that Tesla can provide a better warranty for a larger battery is that you substantially reduce the number of required charge cycles to drive the same distance. That by itself extends the life of the battery substantially. And I am guessing that Tesla is getting the rest of the way to "unlimited" with the cynical realization that you likely can't drive a million miles in 8 years with charge times being what they are. Especially when you consider that extensive use of SuperCharging probably voids the warranty.�
Aug 2, 2012
CapitalistOppressor LOL. Yes, I suppose that since you avoided SuperCharging that would be covered
�
Aug 2, 2012
strider NO manufacturer warranties a specific battery capacity over time. There just isn't enough data and the variables are too many to do such a thing at this point. Remember people, warranties are to protect you against manufacturing defects, not deterioration due to use of the product. When your chainsaw or mower blade gets dull do you demand a new one under warranty? No. If the blade breaks while under normal use? Yes.
Second, we have experience with this via Roadster owners. The battery pack is divided into sheets and further into bricks of cells. The pack can only deliver as much as the weakest brick because when 1 brick hits its low limit the discharging must stop so as not to over-discharge that weak brick. So if 1 brick's capacity is dramatically less than the others your range will show lower. In this case Tesla will replace the battery as that brick is defective (with the Roadster you can see this when reading the log file - it will tell you which brick # is the weakest as well as how much capacity the weakest brick has and the average brick capacity. That weakest brick number will change every few days if everything is good. If it's the same brick number for a long time and there is a large difference between the weakest brick and average brick Tesla will replace the pack). However, if you range has dropped and all bricks have very similar capacity then they will not replace under warranty because the range drop has come from use of the battery and not a manufacturing defect.
There is a science to this and Tesla will take care of you if there's a problem with the battery. But as I tell people when they ask about my car, you should set aside some of the money from fuel savings as the battery is a consumable and will need to be replaced someday. I am confident I will save more in fuel costs than the battery will cost but this cost will come at some point.�
Aug 3, 2012
Yggdrasill Renault will give you a new battery if your battery drops below 75% capacity for the Zoe. It's a battery rental agreement, of course, but the principle is the same.
Tesla loads all the risk of battery degradation onto the customer. Renault takes all the risk onto themself. Why is that?
Does Renault have better batteries that they are sure will work as opposed to Tesla? If Tesla doesn't believe in their product, why should the customer?
I certainly will demand a new blade if the blade costs $35,000 and dulled significantly faster than I could reasonably expect. (Of course, a dull blade is easily fixed by sharpening it. A degraded battery is garbage. So the situations aren't exactly analogous.)
In other words, if all Model S batteries degrade to 70% in 4 years, you're out of luck. They all degraded at the same rate and consequently the degredation is normal and expected.
Look, I can understand that Tesla is hesitant to warranty a specific capacity, I really can. If I had my own company, I would be hesitant to bet the company on our products working as intended. Tesla would be bankrupt if all Model S batteries degraded faster than expected and needed to be replaced under warranty. If that were to happen, it would be better for Tesla to write off all their customers up to that point, and try to instead win new customers with improved warranties and promises. The way the warranty is worded allows Tesla to do that. If all Model S batteries are at 70% after 4 years, Tesla has the option of telling all Model S customers to get lost. It wouldn't exactly be good PR for the company, but at least they wouldn't be bankrupt.
Even so, they should bet the company on the Model S working as intended. It is the only right thing to do when your customers are betting up to $100k on the Model S working as intended. The customers shouldn't be stuck with all the risk.�
Aug 3, 2012
Yggdrasill You wouldn't be disadvantaged in advertising by warranting the worst case battery capacity. If the battery capacity warranty is for 70% after 8 years/200 000 miles (and you have a defect warranty for unlimited miles/8 years), but the expected capacity is 80% at average use, you can use the 80% figure all you want in advertising, as long as the right disclaimers are added.
Right now electric car companies are at a disadvantage relative to fossil car manufacturers, because regular mainstream people who are considering buying a car will look at the battery warranties, see that there are no promises regarding durability, and think "I'll wait a few years until they are no longer experimental". Except Renault, who have done the sensible thing and put their money where their mouth is.�
Aug 3, 2012
Adm There is no such thing as a free lunch... With Renault you pay for the warrantee in the rental price. You pay $15000 for a battery of 22kWh over a period of 8 years and at the end you still don't own anything but a car* (* Batteries not included)
Now, should your 85kWh battery only have 50% left after 4 years and 50k mi without obvious abuse, do you really think Tesla would leave you hang out to dry? If that is the case I would strongly recommend you to cancel your reservation, because I would never do business with a company (or its technology) I don't trust.
Now, in case your battery would still have 70% left after 8 years it would be nearly as good as a 60kWh battery or at 50% as good as a 40kWh battery, in other words it has residual value (apart from scrap value)�
Aug 3, 2012
jkirkebo Why would they replace the whole battery pack and not just the weak brick ? I thought that was the point of a modular design like this ?�
Aug 3, 2012
Johan I agree, knowing what I know about Tesla I wouldn't worry. But the mainstream consumer has no knowledge of or relationship with Tesla. Nor the consumer media etc. They will be looking at the terms and conditions, believe me.
And as we can all agree Tesla's batteries will very likely hold up well and we can agree that Tesla will do right by their customers, why not put it into reassuring print?�
Aug 3, 2012
Yggdrasill You risk the exact same thing with the Model S. Owning a car with no battery.
This isn't so much about what I think. I would fall into the category of an early adopter, so I will tend to put up with more inconvenience than most other people.
This is about what the mainstream consumer will think. And they aren't going to want to carry all the risk. Maybe Tesla will do okay when it comes to the model S and X without changing the warranties, but not when you get into the bluestar-territory... They will need better warranties.
Going from 50% to 0% doesn't take long. On the cell level a 85 kWh battery at 50% capacity is not at all like a 40 kWh battery at 100% capacity. The margins before a cell reverses is minimal, and cell by cell, the battery will die. There is of course some residual value, but nowhere near 50%. Maybe 5-10% + recyclable materials - recycling cost.�
Aug 3, 2012
Bearman The ZOE warranty is all well and good but do not forget the fine print, the price with the specific warranty is only for 6000 miles/year and 36 months.
�
Aug 3, 2012
Yggdrasill Other distances/periods will be available, like with the Fluence. Link
And the �70 rental/month adds up to around $10,000, not $15,000. $15,000 is in all probability closer to the 8 year/100,000 miles cost.�
Aug 3, 2012
brianman Risking vs. gauranteeing...�
Aug 3, 2012
Yggdrasill You won't actually end up with no battery. The options are closer to being:
- Pay around $35,000 for a 300 mile battery for the model S, which might last 22 years/395,000 miles, but probably won't last much more than 15 years/200,000 miles, and could very well last a lot less than that.
- Pay around $35,000 for a 100 mile battery for a ZOE that is guaranteed to have a minium of 75% capacity for 22 years/395,000 miles. (Or pay less for less distance/fewer years.)
Tesla obviously has the advantage of the longer range, but when it comes to the warranty terms, Tesla is out-classed.�
Aug 3, 2012
Adm If you want to chose between a Zo� and a Model S, well they are both electric I guess.
In the Netherlands the battery of the Fluence cost �128 p.m. for 25k km's p.y. or about $150 and 15.6k mi. 22*12*150 = $39'600 for 343k mi
Assuming 5k km p.y. extra costs another �8 p.m. that makes $166 p.m. so 22*12*166 or $43824 for 412k mi.
Now you assume 395k mi in 22 years, so why wait until year 15? Why not swap after 11 years? Now in my turn to assume, I expect to be able to buy a new battery at that price. Now the choice is pay rent for a 100mi battery or buy a 300mi at the same price. I don�t have to think too long about that....�
Aug 3, 2012
Yggdrasill If you assume the battery prices go down (not unreasonable, of course), the battery leasing prices will go down as well. Or people will start buying third-party batteries at the end of their battery leases.
But we're getting a bit away from the issue. The issue is not the specifics of the comparison with Renault, the issue is that Renault can and does offer better terms for battery capacity.
The fact is that if the Model S 85 kWh battery can easily last 200,000 miles/8 years, like Elon Musk says (he's said the batteries are expected to last around twice what they are warrantied for), the additional cost of providing a specific warranty for 70% capacity at 8 year/200,000 miles is $0.00. As no battery will be replaced, there is no cost. Why wouldn't Tesla want to offer superior terms at no additional cost?
This doesn't make sense unless you believe the guys at Tesla to be utter morons, or, that you accept that they assess the added sales due to the better terms doesn't outweigh the risks/costs of having to replace X batteries. This means that you have absolutely no guarantees that the battery you buy will last 200,000 miles with at least 70% capacity. In fact, Tesla expects that there's a significant chance that a significant amount of batteries won't last that long. That is what their actions are saying, at least.�
Aug 3, 2012
Bearman Ygg: The zoe will cost you 36,500 usd for 8 years and 96,000 miles with the (75%) warranty and a 12,000 mile yearly range.
[21,000 usd upfront and 1,918 usd per year (12,000 mile/year milage) x8 years for the battery lease, uk prices]
I think that's all good.
Renault have said that they expect the usable battery life to be 8-10 years, also there are many constraints in the actual contract
4.2.1 No amendment may extend the Maximum Contractual Mileage beyond 120,000 miles.
4.2.2 No amendment may extend the Period of Hire beyond 72 months.
http://www.renault.co.uk/Resources/PDF/batteryterms.pdf
Another thing to contemplate is what if Renault would have the same apply for a 85 kwh battery, what would they charge?
Assuming a battery twice as large would cost about twice as much and hence the lease cost would be doubled as well, would it be (85/24)*[lease cost of the 24kwh battery]?
Lets see, if we use the 18,000 yearly mile number from your link that's 2,477 usd/year (133 GBP/month* exchange rate(1.55)*12) . Multiplied by (85/24), times 8 years = 70,195 usd.
Added to that you have the cost of the car itself.
Battery lease is a good option and the warranty is reassuring but it's not without constraints, there is no free lunch.�
Aug 3, 2012
VolkerP I beg to disagree. This is not a zero cost option. Tesla's actions say, "TM doesn't bear the risk to warrant any remaining battery capacity in all and every car, since we would have to deal with many warranty claims in cases of battery neglect or [inadvertent] battery abuse." I support that. There would be considerable amount of money involved in that and I don't want to have that added to my Model S purchase price.�
Aug 3, 2012
Adm Warranties cost money, period. Every warranty is backed by an insurer as no new, small business can take that kind of risk. Tesla would have to add the premium to the price.�
Aug 3, 2012
VolkerP BTW we are far off topic. The battery lease thread is here: A Battery is Expensive - so, Lease
I searched for a thread dedicated to the Model S battery warranty, but there appears to be none.
Mods, care to move posts / spawn new thread?�
Aug 3, 2012
Yggdrasill There's nothing to stop Tesla for adding a few reasonable demands to avoid abuse. For instance:
- Usage of supercharger for no more than 10 times a week.
- No longer than one week between being plugged into a socket with at least 1 kW output for at least 10 hours.
- Battery left at greater than 90% charge for no more than 10% of the time.
- Battery left at less than 10% charge at no more than 10% of the time.
- Battery never left at more than 40C or less than -20C for longer than 72 hours with the thermal management system off.
- etc.
This is a lot better for everyone, as everyone knows the rules. Not like now where Tesla decides if something is a defect or not, and replaces/repairs the battery only if they are in the mood to do so.�
Aug 3, 2012
VolkerP You get more battery capacity loss from sitting 5x at 39C than once at 40C. You get even more loss from sitting frequently at 35C. It is nearly impossible to state the harmful combinations of time, SOC, temperature, and charge/discharge current in a warranty. If stated, it would be hard for a consumer to adhere.
The technical stopgaps, if implemented to the full extend of degradation-denying battery states, would severely cut operational windows for discharge currents (good bye Performance Model S), temperatures (good bye AZ, TX), and SOC (good bye 265 EPA range) and leave you with a rather impractical EV.�
Aug 3, 2012
JRP3 How so? An 85kWh pack at 50% capacity is a 40kWh pack. Most cells degrade fastest in the first 20-30% of capacity and then stabilize, so a 50% 85kWh pack may actually drop capacity more slowly than an actual 40kWh pack at 100% capacity.�
Aug 3, 2012
brianman 10 times seems way high for weekly supercharger use�
Aug 3, 2012
strider They do that to get your car back on the road quicker. What they actually do is give you a replacement battery that has the same or more capacity [discounting the bad brick(s)] then take your battery and replace the bad brick(s) and use that for the next customer who has a battery problem.�
Aug 3, 2012
strider No, this is WAY too complicated. People will not buy EV's because "they have too many rules". It's much better to leave it as it is, let the early adopters take some risk, and then when Tesla has more data they could add language. But it's not that much of a risk - again, we have Roadster experience here. My car is 20 months old with 20,300 miles on it driven every day. I have 96% battery capacity. I have no worries at all about buying a Model S.�
Aug 3, 2012
kevincwelch Strider,
How different is the Model S battery from that of the Roadster? If it is similar, I would reluctantly agree. If substantially different, I'm not sure I would agree until more data is out there.
How do you drive 20300 miles daily? ? ?? ? ?
Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk 2�
Aug 3, 2012
qwk What you fail to realize is that the battery cells are made by Panasonic, and are the latest and most energy dense available at this time. The roadster cells are outdated in comparison. Now if the cells were some cheap Chinese knockoffs, then there would be reason to worry. Just look at the battery warranty of the Roadster vs the Model S. it's better for a reason.�
Aug 3, 2012
kevincwelch I'm impressed you could infer that from my question...so thanks.
Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk 2�
Aug 3, 2012
qwk Seriously, why would Tesla change the battery management significantly from the roadster if it works so well? The change from the 2.2 mah computer grade cells to the 3.1mah automotive grade cells is definately significant, but Panasonic has decades of experience with li-ion battery tech. If anybody can make a great cylinder format cell, it's Panasonic.
Most of your tech questions can be answered by reading this site. Whining without doing research is nonsense, plain and simple.�
Aug 3, 2012
kevincwelch Thanks for the information.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2�
Aug 3, 2012
dmckinstry Well, they could say as long as the car is driven and charged within specified guidelines. Those guidelines are net yet available, but could be specified in the owners guide.
The owner would then have to permit Tesla to have access to charging and driving records via onboard computer(s). I certainly wouldn't be adverse to that. We already know some of the practices that would cause premature degradation of the battery pack. Certainly it would be adversely affected by trying to do 0-60 mph as fast as possible every time we entered an on ramp.�
Aug 3, 2012
strider Sorry, poor grammar. Meant to say that it's a daily driver, depended upon to get me to work and back each and every day, that it's charged every night and used in the same was that my Corvette was used when I had it.�
Aug 3, 2012
kevincwelch I know what you meant...:smile:�
Aug 4, 2012
stopcrazypp The worse case is definitely not 70% after 8 years/200k miles. That's actually the average case. At ~500 cycles to 70% in the average case (standard cycle testing), it's 150k, 120k, 80k miles respectively for the 300, 240, 160 mile packs respectively (assuming you get that much range from those packs on a full charge). At a 40-60% SOC storage at 25 degrees C, a laptop battery loses about 4% per year and will last ~7.5 years to 70%.
Tesla offers 8 year and similar mileage coverage for their defect warranty specifically because this represents the average case life.
Worse case is this:
The lower bound for a laptop cell is typically 300 cycles to 70%. Add the fact you likely won't get the advertised 300 miles range in a full pack (real world esp. worse case would be closer to 265 miles or under) and you get the following numbers: 79.5k, 63.6k, 42.4k for the 300, 240, 160 mile packs respectively.
In terms of calendar life, laptop cell stored near 100% SOC loses about 20% capacity per year, so in about 1.5 years your battery pack can be at 70% in the worse case. The Tesla BMS likely won't let you store at 100% SOC so let's assume worse case is 2-3x better (3-5 years like a typical laptop battery used in a laptop).
How receptive would the public be to a 3-5 year 40k/60k/80k mile warranty to cover the worse case 70% degradation? And I bet most competitors will trash this in advertising.
And in advertising you put the terms of your warranty (and if you don't, your competitors will do so for you like GM did when comparing to the Leaf's warranty), not the average use case (there may be regulations against this given I have never seen a car manufacturer do so).
As for your suggestion for all kind of restrictions on the battery usage, that's way too complicated for your average buyer.
The Renault situation is different because you don't own the battery (and as others pointed out they priced that warranty into the rental price plus they have the standard leasing restrictions to help them). Given the 36 month and 18k mile max terms on the Fluence, that's equivalent to a 3 year/54k mile warranty (you can compare to my worse case warranty and see it's quite similar).
Realistically, I don't see battery wear warranties happening for purchased batteries until the worse case degradation of typical batteries reaches 8 year/150k miles (not just the average case). This is not unobtainable given the SCiB and a123 cells.�
Aug 4, 2012
Adm The German Roadster driver Hans-J�rg von Gemmingen has used and abused his Roadster for 4 years, driving over 125k mi and has 70% left.
Assuming Model S has better BMS and no abuse (racing and running the battery to 0%) I'd like to believe things can only improve over his numbers.�
Aug 5, 2012
jerry33 If I had my Model S and if there were superchargers along the route, I would have used one ten times this week:
Two trips from Texas to Nebraska times two supercharges each way + one supercharge at the Nebraska end for each trip (Didn't stay overnight, just there and back).�
Aug 6, 2012
Lyon Do you make trips like this often? I might be concerned about the longevity of your battery if that's the case. However, if that trip is the exception as opposed to the rule you should be fine, right?�
Aug 6, 2012
CapitalistOppressor No, it's not. One is a lease, one is a warranty.
Because Renault is shafting it's customers with it's lease.
No, they don't. Which is why they are leasing them instead of selling them.
Tesla believes in it's product enough to provide an 8 year unlimited mileage warranty on it's 85kWh battery. Renault is providing a lease that costs $1,320/year and limits you to 7,500 miles/year. Over 8 years the lease costs you $10,560.
On a per kWh basis (Zoe is 22kWh) that works out to $40,800 to lease Tesla's 85kWh battery, and you are limited to 60,000 miles of use. You have to be both naturally foolish, and smoking crack, to think that Renault is offering a better deal than Tesla. Consider also, that at the end of the 8 years you still own the Tesla battery. If at any point you fail to pay your Renault lease, they will remotely brick your car until you pay up. Which you will have to do, month after month and year after money losing year.
The real risk to me would be if I were foolish enough to sign the Renault battery lease agreement for the tiny, short ranged, low performance Zoe in lieu of purchasing a Tesla Model S.�
Aug 6, 2012
CapitalistOppressor At some point, actually performing some math might be helpful to illustrate your argument. 22 YEARS of the Zoe lease costs ~$113,000 dollars on a per kWh comparison with the Tesla 85kWh battery. Which doesn't come with those ridiculously low 7,500 mile/year limits. That is enough to pay for 3 Tesla 85kWh batteries outright, each with an 8 year unlimited mileage warranty.�
Aug 6, 2012
CapitalistOppressor No. It. Does. Not.
Renault is offering a terrible deal in comparison to Tesla. They are really ripping off their customers IMHO.�
Aug 6, 2012
CapitalistOppressor Yay, actual maths. And of course, if you fail to pay your lease at any time you are insta-bricked. I disagree that the lease is a good option though. Renault is really shafting its customers.�
Aug 6, 2012
Yggdrasill When the Tesla warranty doesn't cover anything Tesla considers "normal" degredation, it's a worthless warranty. The laws over here are such that it is legally iffy for Tesla to even call it a warranty, because a "warranty" must have better terms than you already have under consumer laws.
If you leased 85 kWh, you would also get the added range associated with the kWh. So, you would get 232,000 miles on 85 kWh worth of Zoe batteries. ((60k/22)*85)
Of course, this doesn't compare the higher mileage leases, which are cheaper per mile.�
Aug 6, 2012
Yggdrasill 22 years of leasing 85 kWh of Zoe batteries would imply a driven distance of 637,500 miles. Although it would cost around $113k, how many Model S batteries would one need for that distance? Three? Four? The cost would be about the same...
And if you use the higher mileage leases that I linked to above, you'd get around 1,526,000 miles, for around $135k. How many Model S batteries would that take? Seven? Eight?�
Aug 6, 2012
PeterW Going by Elon's comment that they actually expect the batteries to have a usable life of twice the warranty period, then the answer is 2. Sorry, I mean one and a half.�
Aug 6, 2012
Yggdrasill And how has he defined "useable life"? More than 10% battery capacity? 70%?
If the latter, why not simply warranty battery degradation? If you have someone who absuses their battery and halves their battery life, they'd still not need a replacement under a 70%/200,000 miles warranty. As Tesla does not offer this warranty, I would expect that Elon is not talking about 70%, at least.�
Aug 6, 2012
Yggdrasill The more I think about this issue, the more my enthusiasm for Tesla is cooling off. I won't be cancelling my reservation, but I can't see that I'll be advocating EVs, either. If Tesla can't warranty battery degradation, EVs just aren't ready for mass adoption. Maybe they will be in a few years.�
Aug 6, 2012
PeterW To me, anything below 2/3 of the original capacity would be below "usable life", so I would hope he is talking 70%. But lets say 50% after 16 years and I replaced my battery at 70% after 12 years. The answer is still 2.�
Aug 6, 2012
Yggdrasill Still, looking at the higher mileage lease calculations, assuming 300,000 miles before replacement would mean that you'd need 5 Model S batteries for 1.5 million miles. That would cost something like $175k today, compared to $135k for the battery lease today.
Using the low mileage leases will be a bit misleading, because the base (non-mileage) costs will be the same for a high and a low-mileage lease. This includes breakdown assistance, administration, etc.�
Aug 6, 2012
Adm The highest quoted mileage for the Renault battery rental is 18k mi/yr. 8 years is $19790(UK prices) for a warranteed 70% battery that has 24kWh
The total mileage for that contract is 144k mi.
Now please tell me you assume that the 85kWh won't last that many miles and that many years and we can stop the discussion right here right now. I still believe it's an insurance issue for Tesla and nothing else.
Now let's assume degradation for the Model S is below expectation at that point (after 8 years) and you need to buy a new one. You think a 85kWh costs �35k, so there is a price difference of about $15k.
For this $15k you get about 150mi (conservatively) extra mi range and it's attached to a car that is about double the size. Whether or not that is worth $15k to you is a matter of personal preference. It would be to me.
Now, should Renault decide to make a car similar in size as the Tesla Model S, the battery would have to increase in capacity to keep the same range as the Zo�. This would imply that the rental price would go up and the difference in price would become smaller.
Sorry, I like the fact that Renault takes a more affordable car to the market, but the battery plan is hardly a steal. It will however probably help some people take the decision to go electric and that's good which ever way you see it. As more competion comes, the prices will become more competitive and so will Renault's.
A special note to the Dutch market: As I check the Dutch prices, I noticed that on top of the battery rental there is an obligatory insurance to be paid for the battery. I called a dealer, as there was no price on the website. Of course I got the rookie salesman/boy and he was pretty sure he saw � 7/$8.60 per month somewhere. He tried to find the exact number and as I was fed up with him after 5 min he mentioned between 7 and 9 euro's before I ended the call. Now battery rental in the Netherlands is cheaper than in the UK, so the insurance may be included there.�
Aug 6, 2012
jerry33 Two or three times a year.�
Aug 6, 2012
smorgasbord That's what airplanes are for.
Austin to Omaha, for instance, is something like 750 miles. Even with multiple drivers, I can't imagine not having an overnight somewhere in the middle of 20-24 hours of driving.�
Aug 6, 2012
ckessel Does any battery manufacturer warranty degradation? I'm not talking just EV, but any battery at all?�
Aug 6, 2012
Mycroft Or Skype.
Seriously, I agree. It might be more time/cost effective to fly if no overnights are involved.�
Aug 6, 2012
jerry33 Cost of airfare+inconvenience+cost of rental car+rental car inconvenience=I don't fly unless there is a significant body of water between where I am and the destination.�
Aug 6, 2012
Tommy Automotive batteries (the common 12v to start car) usually come with a prorated warranty where, as an example, the first 3 years from date of purchase the battery is replaced free of charge and the remainder of the warranty period (2 to 7 years) the battery is prorated to the replacement cost of the new battery.
This is the similarity I see: Tesla's 8 year warranty and the automotive battery 3 year free replacement portion of the warranty differ only in the length of the free replacement time period; both are basically replaced for defects in manufacturing or materials. In the case of the automotive battery, you know it's defective when the battery won't hold a charge or the car won't start (the degradation of the battery). However, the automotive battery has a prorated time period that Tesla does not have. Perhaps if Tesla prorated the replacement cost of the new battery for the timeframe between the 8th year to the 15th year that would mitigate some of the concerns being expressed about the battery warranty.�
Aug 6, 2012
stopcrazypp Assuming 300k miles before replacement is the wrong assumption. Renault will not allow you to extend a lease beyond 6 years (72 months) and 120k miles. That means they don't expect their batteries to last much beyond that. In this case the time limit on the lease is a bigger limitation than your limit on miles (18k max per year, let's say you can get a 10 year lease, would give you 180k miles and that would not scale with battery size because that is a calendar life limitation).
Those terms are more worrying to me than Tesla's terms because it becomes a question of do you even have a battery anymore after 6 years/120k miles (and what kind of new terms would you have to agree with if you signed a new contract). You may be owning a car without a battery and be SOL at that point, whereas with the Tesla you still have your battery (albeit with lower capacity).�
Aug 6, 2012
stopcrazypp That's not degradation, that's outright failure (the battery can't even operate the car), which would be covered by Tesla's warranty also. In the degradation case, the battery would be able to hold a charge and start/run the car, but will just have less capacity. Renault's example is the only one that is close to a degradation warranty, except it's for a leased battery that you don't own.�
Aug 6, 2012
Tommy As you know batteries loose capacity as the temperature gets colder. One measurement of a batteries capacity is it's Cold Cranking Amperes (CCA). A battery that can start a car in warm weather as it deteriorates (the degradation) will be unable to start the same car in colder weather. That is exactly what happen to me and I was able to replace the battery under warranty. So it is not that the battery failed, it lost enough of its capacity that it could not start the car in cold weather and meet its CCA rating.
In reading these posts regarding the warranty, what has become clear to me is purchasers are really looking for Peace Of Mind. No one wants to have an unexpected expense, and in the case of the battery, a financially strapping expense. Anything Tesla can do to mitigate that concern is a plus.�
Aug 6, 2012
PeterW I can understand that.
What I can say is that, based on the experience of Roadster owners, I am confidant that any genuine issues with a battery will be promptly dealt with by Tesla.
Also, based on recent comments by Elon, I have no worry that my battery will last 8 years before any significant degradation.�
Aug 6, 2012
jerry33 One of the advantages of previously having had another large-battery car, such as a Prius or a Roadster, is that you realize that the battery is mostly a non-issue. Certainly it's less of an issue than automatic transmission failure in a typical car. Battery failure rate is low and the few infant mortality cases that occur are taken care of.
As an example in the 2001-2003 Prius, where the battery is long out of warranty and is of the older style:
1. Less than half have replaced a battery based on the number of posts in the Prius groups so battery life isn't a problem.
2. Those that have replaced the battery have several choices: New battery from the dealer (and the cost isn't particularly high), rebuilt battery from third party (not much difference in cost but the newer cells are used), or salvage battery from a wreck.
Yes, the chemistry is different in the Tesla, but based on the reported Roadster experience, I don't expect to see any different behaviour as far as battery life is concerned. It's too bad the nay-sayers have repeated their FUD so often that those who have the various cars spend most of their time saying "It isn't so" or "No, you don't replace the battery every three to five years", etc. Even those who are interested in EVs have to get over the energy gradient that the nay-sayers have put up.�
Aug 6, 2012
CapitalistOppressor Doesn't change the brutal fact that the price Renault is charging for their lease is only reasonable if you assume total battery failure (i.e. a completely non-functioning battery with no salvage value) after 8 years and 60,000 miles. Thats pretty flippin far from "standing behind their product".�
Aug 6, 2012
CapitalistOppressor More to the point, there are huge and ongoing savings that come from reduced fuel and maintenance costs. That largely balances even relatively poor battery reliability. The average customer will almost certainly come out ahead (or very far ahead), though some will likely be faced with a battery replacement decision in the 8-10 year time frame and potentially lose some money if they have to pay current prices for a new battery.�
Aug 6, 2012
Yggdrasill I would assess the situation as such that Renault doesn't want to plan too far ahead. They don't know the situation in the EV market 10 years from now. In any case, even if Renault decided to eliminate it's electric car program and stop making batteries, which would be the absolute worst case scenario, there will still be options.
1. Renault wouldn't want to be stuck with the batteries, so they'd sell them off to Zoe owners.
2. If Renault decided to screw their customers and take back the batteries and crush them, a third party will make new Zoe batteries. There would be tens of thousands of Zoes on the roads, and all of them would be willing to buy new batteries, at maybe $15,000, so there'd definitely be an opportunity for profit.�
Aug 6, 2012
Yggdrasill The cost per km is about the same as Tesla. How is that unreasonable?�
Aug 7, 2012
Yggdrasill I investigated the issue a bit further, and here, at least, the following producers hava a warrantied minimum capacity:
Citroen C-Zero: A minimum of 80% at 5 years / 50,000 km.
Mitsubishi i-MiEV: A minimum of 80% at 5 years/ 100,000 km.
Buddy, lead-acid: A minimum of 60% at 2 years/ 20,000 km.
Buddy, NiMH: A minimum of 80% at 10 years/ 100,000 km.
Tazzari Zero: A minimum of 70% at 5 years/ 50,000 km.
Ford/Azure Transit: A minimum of 80% at 5 years/ 100,000 km.
Enviro Bil, MIA Electric: A minimum of 80% at 5 years/ 80,000 km.
eCar Norge/Classic Electrics ecar 500 EV: A minimum of 80% at 5 years/ 100,000 km.
If these companies can do it, why can't Tesla?�
Aug 7, 2012
bonnie This one is pretty simple.
If the Model S battery doesn't hold up during real world conditions, warranty or no, there isn't a company. I suspect that Tesla mgmt has thought thru this far more obsessively than even we can do (though we're pretty good at the whole obsessive thing). They also have real world battery data from Roadster owners.
On my list of things to worry about, this one is pretty far down at the bottom.�
Aug 7, 2012
jerry33 Umm, the highest number there is 100,000 km (63,000 miles). The car is still practically new at that point (or should be). Not much of a warranty risk for the vehicle manufacturer. If Tesla put out warranty numbers like that they would be laughed at. 63,000 miles is not even four years' driving unless you're using it as a weekend-only car.�
Aug 7, 2012
VolkerP The outstanding pair are the Buddy warranty values:
=> with a well-tested, expensive chemistry that is known to last (NiMH) you get good values. With a chemistry that is known to suck (Pb-Acid) you get poor values.
Tesla chose a chemistry that is very dependent on being treated well so they warrant no capacity.�
Aug 7, 2012
jerry33 Agreed, but for only 100,000 km you might as well not have a warranty.�
Aug 7, 2012
Tommy Very true, any warranty language really does become moot if there is no company to honor it. Intended or not, one of the functions of a warranty is to build trust within a brand and that results in more sales due to confidence in the brand or what I refer to as peace of mind in the car purchase. Newcomer Hyundai successfully built up their brand and sales by offering a 10 year/100k mile warranty which was unheard of in the industry. They followed that up with a guaranteed trade in valve for repeat customers at the time of a new car purchase. Both are unique to the industry; Hyundai's brand enhanced.
With only 2.5k in Roadster sales, Tesla faces a much more difficult task of getting the word out about how stellar their warranty track record is. While I am convinced, based on your first hand experience reports, that Tesla will do right by their customer, Tesla needs to convince the mass market and word of mouth will only take you so far. Many posters have expressed that Tesla's battery warranty does not address their concerns, are they the outliers or the voice of the typical purchaser? In either case, Tesla offering a battery warranty that addresses their concern will position Tesla to both draw in new customers and enhance their brand image.�
Aug 7, 2012
bonnie Good points. And when I bought my Roadster, I was one of the few that pre-purchased a Roadster battery replacement option. My understanding is that Tesla offered that for precisely what you say -- to address potential concerns regarding the battery life.�
Aug 7, 2012
brianman I had hoped we'd see a similar replacement offering for the Model S, but I suspect we've passed the point of no return (beyond the point where they would have said something if they plan to offer it).�
Aug 7, 2012
bonnie There's now also more information about this battery technology than there was then. Lots more uncertainty existed before.
And now they're getting ready to offer Roadster extended warranties (vehicle and/or battery). I suspect you'll be able to get the same for Model S.�
Aug 7, 2012
stopcrazypp That's like the warranty that the Leaf provides on battery power (the battery must be able to provide the power to run the car at maximum demand). The degradation of capacity is still not covered in that case (neither is it for your lead acid battery). In the power case, there is a clear point of failure (the battery can't run the car). In the capacity there is no clear point of failure (the car runs perfectly fine, it just has less capacity).
Side note: Tesla apparently doesn't cover the power either, reading their warranty.�
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