Sep 30, 2014
Pmacafee We have had our Model for about 18 months and have had four catastrophic failures. We are now on our fourth drive unit plus a failed battery unit and today Tesla gave us an estimate for replacing the failed on-board charge unit of $3,300. It failed about four weeks after they reinstalled the rebuilt battery.
We have just under 65K miles on the car.
I guess that the charge unit is not considered to be part of the drive unit?�
Sep 30, 2014
CHG-ON Sorry to hear you've had so many problems. Why wouldn't your warranty cover it?�
Sep 30, 2014
Vger I had a primary charger replaced at about 7 months of ownership fully under warranty, including the flatbed tow from my home to the service centre. I have no idea why yours would not b covered under warranty. Our car has 41k miles on it and we have had a number of issues (charger, HV junction box, windshield, door handles, drive unit), but every single one of them has been handled under warranty, with a smile and outstanding service.�
Sep 30, 2014
Pmacafee Vger; maybe the drive unit was not covered under the ulimited drive train warranty but under ther 50K general warranty.�
Sep 30, 2014
Science->Truth Something seems quite off with this story. Is there something important we are missing? Is this a crashed/salvage vehicle, in which case I can imagine the warranty no longer applies? What is the VIN (which tells us the production date)? Which service center is doing, and charging for the repairs? This is so inconsistant with many thousands of owners experience....�
Sep 30, 2014
Vger You mean the charger? If so, good point. You are now in the grey zone, being beyond 50k miles. I was wondering if they were going to cover the charger and HV junction as part of the unlimited miles/8 year "driverain" warranty, since they are just as essential to getting the car to move and also somewhat prone to failure. Perhaps not, which would be unfortunate, not just for you!�
Sep 30, 2014
tom66 Over 4yrs/50k miles, charger won't be covered.�
Sep 30, 2014
Science->Truth Or is the vehicle being used commercially, in very extreme circumstances, whic perhaps changes warranty coverage?�
Sep 30, 2014
TEG 65K miles in 18 months? That is a lot of driving.�
Sep 30, 2014
GaryREM Wow. Makes one think about the extended service agreement...�
Sep 30, 2014
Johan Please share more details.�
Sep 30, 2014
Canuck I don't how you can afford not to own a Model S with the price of gas and the amount of driving you do. You have driven on average over 115 miles a day since you got your car.
It's too bad if it's out of warranty and you have to pay for the part but parts do wear out and repair costs are to be expected, especially after a lot of use in a short time.�
Sep 30, 2014
Liz G Not really.
I'm over 61K in 20 months.
Of course the OP's situation is exactly why I bought the extended warranty. Anything fails on this baby and it's going to be costly. Just a fact with premium cars. Wonder if I"ll be able to find an extended, extended warranty for when I roll over 100K.�
Sep 30, 2014
tom66 Especially as Tesla won't sell parts to independent repair shops or distribute service information.
Only source of parts otherwise will be salvage, and who knows if they're good? Body parts you can see damage, but you can't easily check a charger.
I predict there will be a good market for repairing the parts in EVs like Tesla. Such parts will be repairable as Tesla uses off the shelf components for most parts.�
Sep 30, 2014
Pmacafee Car is being used commercially in a livery (limousine) business, and Tesla has actively solicites the livery industry, showing the car at limo conventions, etc. Other manufacturers offer livery industry programs with accessory packages, fixed pricing, and extended warranties, etc.
We were the first limo service to receive a Model S and prominently feature it on our website.
San Francisco Limousine Service_Quicksilver Town Car Service
After extended discussins with Tesla at the time of purchase, no option packages, no industry pricing, no extended warrantiy, no special consideration or industry support of any kind. Just mechanical failures with passengers on board and days with it in the shop rather than making money. Now this.�
Sep 30, 2014
Vger Yes, glad now I have it!�
Sep 30, 2014
ckessel Given the issues this fellow has had, I'd be quite nervous: 4 drive units, a battery, and now a charger all in 18 months. Granted, lots of miles, but there's not much reason for the OP to think the future will be different than the past. If the future holds the same failure rate, the OP is looking at some pretty monstrous maintenance costs. It's certainly one of my worries that the pitch of "low maintenance costs" isn't going to pan out if certain components end up prone to failure.
There will always be outliers that have things go terribly wrong though so there's not much to do but wait and see how things average out over time.�
Sep 30, 2014
TexasEV I think that's it. In an earlier thread the OP said he uses the car in a livery fleet. This is probably be the car that Tesla wouldn't cover under warranty because of commercial use.
(typed while the OP was explaining this above--posts crossed in the ether)�
Sep 30, 2014
sublimaze1 Yes really.�
Sep 30, 2014
apacheguy Sorry to hear of your troubles. $3300 for a failed on board charger seems a bit steep. After all, isn't that how much they charge to add a 2nd twin charger post-delivery? Seems like they should be able to give you a remanufacured unit for much less $$.�
Sep 30, 2014
Pmacafee The charge unit failed just four weeks after our failed-then-rebuilt battery was reinstalled. I can't help but wonder what damage the failed internal battery connections did to the charger.�
Sep 30, 2014
tom66 It is unlikely they did any damage - these types of chargers can withstand a short circuit on the output and will simply shut down until power-cycled.�
Sep 30, 2014
Gizmotoy I mean, I suppose it's relative (I have 7k miles in 11 months), but the nationwide average is in the 11-12k per year range. 43k miles in 12 months is quadruple the average. That's pretty clearly a substantial amount of driving. His "4 year/50k" warranty was exhausted in less than 14 months.
Further, the extended warranty is $4k for another 14 months of coverage. Best case he's covered for just over 2 years.�
Sep 30, 2014
tomas 4 drive train and/or battery failures is a concern. I'm sure they were handled under warranty, but repeated loss of use of vehicle would be frustrating for anyone.
All I can say is that this seems extremely rare for MS. Vast majority of owners have had no such failures. Some people have had one, MAYBE two.
Replacement of a $3,300 part on a $100k car after using up the warranty milage in such a short period? Totally to be expected, and no right to complain. My guess: if the car had not had the other failures, you would write a check with a smile... this has to do with the warranty problems.�
Sep 30, 2014
skboston On-board chargers shouldn't be failing at all, the cost to replace them seems very steep and I hope this vehicle seems to be made on Friday afternoon with so many repairs in it's first 18 months.
Tesla or any other car manufacturer can't void the warranty, because the vehicle is used for commercial purposes, 65000 miles isn't much for a car that is used on a daily bases. I usually put about 30-35000 miles a year on the cars I drive. It's sad to hear you've gone through 4 drive trains and a batter pack and now a on-board charger.
It makes perfect sense to use the Model S in a livery service at it should be saving you a ton of money.
@tomas
I don't think it's normal after just 65000 miles to have to replace an on-board charger. I understand it's a $80k+ car, but it's supposed to be reliable and not having to replace major components every 60-70k miles. If you have to shed out $3-4000 every 60k miles for major repairs, then the whole argument of no moving parts and less breakdowns, just evaporates.�
Sep 30, 2014
Pmacafee I just heard from the Burlingame service center. The can't fit the car in until next Monday, so at least 7 days out of service. Going to be some PO'd customers, not good. Not good for Tesla either when we explain why either.�
Sep 30, 2014
Gizmotoy To be fair, I can think of exactly zero situations where I'd write a car repair check for $3.3k and be happy about it, even after years of trouble-free driving.
That sucks. Hope they got you a loaner, at least. Did the slave or master fail? Presumably you have dual chargers and the slave failed? Tesla is usually really good about getting cars unable to charge high priority treatment.
There are a couple other service centers nearby. I'd call one of them.�
Sep 30, 2014
skboston He won't get a loaner, the car is out of warranty, so that ship is sailed.�
Sep 30, 2014
AmpedRealtor Have you heard of Goldie Bhullar? He is the owner of Angel Worldwide Transportation. He posted in the TM forums months ago that Tesla charged him $15,000 for a new drive unit and $6,000 for failed "supercharging hardware". He was also not allowed to purchase an extended warranty due to the commercial use.�
Sep 30, 2014
tomas Lemme guess, you are probably also miserable about paying taxes?:biggrin::wink:
Just saying... limo in service for 65k miles made owner a pretty good buck, maintenance is to be expected and bills for out of warranty luxury car maintenance are not cheap!�
Sep 30, 2014
Gizmotoy Is that right? First time I heard that. I thought it was included with service, not via warranty. Interesting.
There's a crucial difference between being happy about something (writing a check and smiling about it), and deciding the cost is acceptable (just handing over a check). :smile: I'm not whistling a tune as I send a giant check to the IRS, but I'm not complaining about it, either.�
Sep 30, 2014
skboston Actually, the reason he purchased the vehicles for the livery industry is to reduce the maintenance bill even out of warranty, but it turned out the exact opposite. If this issue starts happening in a year or 2 after lots of the 2012/13 models start running out of warranty, this would be a big concern for the value of the car. You're not buying the car as a toy, but also for it's reliability and expectation to last longer than 60k miles for repairs as there is nothing but the battery and drive train in it.
I wouldn't be happy either if my car turns 50k miles, my warranty expires and next day my HWPC, on-board charger fails or the unimaginable - the battery pack fails.�
Sep 30, 2014
William13 I have had two slave chargers fail. One at 10,000 miles, the second at 20,000 miles. Luckily the master did not fail. The price is fair for the current situation. New, premium $100,000 car without a secondary market. Soon (2-8 years) there will be salvaged chargers, motors, and inverters available or a few people who can repair/replace electrical parts on our Teslas at a lower price point.�
Sep 30, 2014
tomas I call BS. I'd suggest he bought the car for livery because it is sexy, au courant, green, and commands a premium. Makes his company sexy and cool, too. And, I'm sure he charged a premium.
PS, if your car turns 50k miles, you should have bought the extended warranty. Plus, everybody should know that the battery pack warranty is NOT limited at 50k miles. Check the website @skboston!�
Sep 30, 2014
AmpedRealtor Drive unit, battery, charging and electrical systems are supposed to be Tesla's core strength and competency.�
Sep 30, 2014
skboston @tomas
He did that too of course, I doubt the premium is much more compared to a conventional car, what he does is win repeat business easier with Tesla vehicles in his fleet, however the maintenance factor is also huge one. I'm very familiar with limo business and I'm as well in the transportation business and I know how people make their fleet purchases.
As for the battery you're right, it's 8 years - this slipped through my mind. I agree here with AR - the battery system (including chargers) is one of Tesla's strengths. None of their main components should be failing just after 65k miles on them, period.
Model S is an expensive car, but in 3 years with Model 3 things change and if their chargers start to fail out of warranty prematurely, the issue will be much deeper then.�
Sep 30, 2014
rcc <shrug>
Practice is different from theory, Tesla's a startup, this is an early VIN car, one data point doesn't make a curve and sometimes you just get unlucky.
I also have an early VIN car - 1 3/4 years old. The quality of the cars produced at that time may be higher since mine was built towards the tail end of the initial 3-month-long production ramp-up instead of a few months after the ramp-up.
I've had a few minor problems but nothing major. Well within the range of a high-quality but complex car made by a BMW, Mercedes, etc.
And boy did I ever buy the extended warranty. New car put out by a startup ramping production? Sign me up...�
Sep 30, 2014
Canuck
Why? It seems to me that anything electrical in nature is prone to failure.
- - - Updated - - -
Makes sense but looking back investing in the stock instead of the warranty would likely have paid back more. But, as they say, hindsight is 20/20.�
Sep 30, 2014
Pmacafee I did not get the extended warranty. We usually put about 100K miles each year on a Lincoln Towncar. So i guessed that i would be out of even the extended warranty pretty quick. But we only put 50K miles on in the first year. I also thought that most of the serious problems would be covered by the drivetrain warranty or the battery would be the problem but had a long warranty by itself.�
Sep 30, 2014
mkjayakumar Just curious, what's your range after 65k miles ?�
Sep 30, 2014
Chris TX This is a commercial vehicle. My neighbor runs a town car service and seems to have one of his two cars perpetually in the shop. It's just part of doing business and he charges a premium that easily covers this AND the gasoline. Does the OP really think he's going to find a better car to do the job? $3300 to get the car back in the fleet making money sounds pretty damn cheap to me. Could you do the same thing with the business lease that TM offers?�
Sep 30, 2014
Pmacafee Still show about 280 on a full charge.�
Sep 30, 2014
ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well, $3300 and a week in the shop.
I hope Tesla's keeping a keen eye on these commercially-used vehicles because there will be a significant market available to long-range BEVs that can handle the taxi grind.�
Sep 30, 2014
mejojo And the $3300 is a deductible business expense......so not as big a hit as we would take.�
Sep 30, 2014
skboston Is that on an ideal mileage shown?
Well, certainly not after 65000 miles. It's not a lot of miles put in an year, so break. I hope it's just an isolated incident or one of the very few out there, because judging by your post I should be replacing my PC, laptop, phone and bunch of other electronics at home every couple of years, especially the ones I use heavily like my PC.
Just because it's a business expense, it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt the business. I see the argument it's a new technology, but it's in Tesla's interest to make things last longer and not break as often, especially on electronic equipment.
�
Sep 30, 2014
Canuck Possibly one of those items would need replacing after a couple of years of heavy use. That's just the law of averages, especially with electronics. That's why warranties run out after a period of time. You only get unlimited warranties for things that are not prone to failure such as knives, cookware, hammers and similar types of tools.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that it shouldn't fail with only 65k miles on your charger (and most probably don't) but I was simply responding to your comment that they shouldn't be failing at all:
Originally Posted by skboston
On-board chargers shouldn't be failing at all,...�
Sep 30, 2014
skboston I'm on of those people that don't like to replace their stuff every year and I make educated purchases for my business and for myself at home.
I expect things to eventually fail and perhaps "shouldn't be failing at all" was improperly used, I think just because the car is used for commercial purposes, shouldn't have any effect on the chargers, as a matter of fact Tesla should be looking at what causes the failure on a slightly heavier used one and make adjustments, so others don't fail.
We're only going to see more and more Tesla's used as a business, hey they even have Business lease program.�
Sep 30, 2014
invisik Lets not forget that Elon said many of the drive replacements were actually the fault of an intermittent wire short. Some, if not potentially all, of those drivetrain replacements we're not actually busted drivetrains.
I don't know what to expect after 60k miles, that's mostly uncharted territory.
Sucks they can't get it in sooner... Can you charge at all (just off a single charger?) depending on your stops for the day I'd think it wouldn't have to be totally out of commission.....
Good luck...
-m�
Sep 30, 2014
Pmacafee We have an HPWC at our garage and it does not work at all. We tried the HPWC at the service center which was actually set at 22 amps andit kicked that one out too.
-P�
Sep 30, 2014
brianman Grumble.�
Sep 30, 2014
islandbayy I wonder.... If a on-board charger fails.... Can the vehicle still be supercharged? Since the shunt to link directly to the pack via DC is separate from the on-board chargers.
And while I now have 40,000 miles on my car, I've had 1 battery replacement at 34,000 miles due to contactor failure, I do currently have concerns over my drive train due to a ever increasing CLUNK noise when going from stop to drive, F to R, and Drive to Regen. And it's getting worse despite re greasing and re-torquing things down by service center. It still runs though, so as long as it's covered, I will still drive it. I am still very nervous though. The battery failure has gotten me scared, as up to that point, problems were always MINOR MINOR MINOR stuff, that was no big deal. While the battery warranty and power train warranty are still in effect, now to 125,000 miles for me, Those failures have me scared crap-less. And the quoted cost to repair some of these things out of warranty....... I've said it before, while this is a premium vehicle, electric should be low maintenance and low failure rate, that is the exact opposite of what is happening. I am kicking myself for not getting the 85 for the 8 year unlimited mileage warranty, and kicking myself harder for not getting the extended agreement when it was only $2,500. If I get a major failure that is not covered under warranty, or happens after my warranty is expired, I will have a HUGE 4,600 Lbs paperweight sitting in my driveway for quite a while, while I go back to driving my busted old truck that has been through 2 major accidents that "totaled" it, all the while requiring nothing more then routine oil changes.
And while I have been, and still am a huge tesla fanboy, and will continue to grow in being a tesla fanboy, I hate to say it, but once again, I am scared of the reliability, and am seriously getting turned off by this and high cost of potential repairs. Especially with my factory warranty running out in less then 10,000 miles.
Right now, everything is "Running fine". Drivetrain clunk getting worse though.... covered under warranty. At this point, I do know it's just WHEN, not IF it will get replaced. As for the new battery, the B pack that I got as a replacement started off amazing, with 3 miles more range then my original when new (211 compared to 209), though within 3,000 miles it dropped to 205-207, though holding there. It took nearly 20,000 miles for my original to drop that much. At least it's a B pack instead of a A pack. We'll see what happenes with that.
Sorry to thread crap
�
Sep 30, 2014
AmpedRealtor The above post makes me sad. I've watched your battery videos and have followed your trials and tribulations through your battery replacement. I'm sad that what we see happening is dampening our enthusiasm for this brand and potentially over the longevity of our vehicles. I would be lying to say that I'm not concerned. Everyone is in Happyville while under warranty and under Tesla's great customer service umbrella. But look... My Prius went 7 years before I sold it and racked up 122,000 miles. I replaced the 12v battery once and that was it! I bought the 100,000 mile warranty and ended up regretting it. My VW Jetta before that was also pretty reliable, although it did have more than its share of warranty issues. But I did not keep it far beyond the warranty before I sold that one. Acura Integra before that, went over 160,000 miles and blew a hose pipe once.
I do not accept the argument that other premium vehicles in this price range also require service and suffer from component failures. That's not the point. Tesla says it is doing better. It has like an order of magnitude fewer moving parts than an ICE car and Elon says in front of hundreds of people that their drivetrain is nearly indestructible. He recently said they have one back in their labs with over 500,000 miles on it. So why isn't that experience resonating throughout these threads?
Islandbay, can you still buy the extended warranty? I believe you are still inside of your warranty period and are eligible to purchase it. Even at $4,000, it's still a heck of a lot less expensive than a failed supercharging unit. And it should also help you with resale potential down the road. If these failure reports keep up, I don't see a very prolific used market for Model S vehicles that aren't still under a warranty of some kind.�
Sep 30, 2014
timpoo I feel so sorry for the OP, and as a buyer waiting for my car I'm very concerned as well, especially since we're in Australia and will probably have to wait longer for parts etc.
I can't believe that even for a commercial vehicle the OP had so many things go wrong! Saying it's covered under warranty is great, but that doesn't negate the fact that these failures happened in the first place, which means a lot of inconvenience to the owner. No doubt it's also bad for Tesla because its warranty costs will start getting out of control if these issues aren't brought under control.�
Sep 30, 2014
TurboFroggy Lincoln Town Cars are averaging 18.8 mpg. Average gas prices in the Bay Area $4.50/gallon, that is a savings of $15K at least in just fuel alone. This doesn't take into account oil changes and other maintenance items on the Lincoln. $3K for a charger in 65K miles? I would say your still coming out WAY ahead.�
Sep 30, 2014
skboston Extended warranty can only be purchased within 30 days of delivery of new Model S.
I don't doubt that they have 500k mile drivetrain in at their lab, but do they have chargers that has gone through the similar tests and not failing?
It is a serious concern and I'd wish we could get some numbers on what parts fail the most in our cars. I doubt Tesla will release such information, but it would be nice for us to know what we can expect.
I drove my 2006 C Class for almost 6 years, 140 000 miles and the only thing I really changed was 1 alternator for $200, oil and breaks. I expect Tesla to do better in the "failing parts department after 65k miles".
@Turbo
Those calculations are irrelevant, if a main component of an EV breaks shy above 65k miles, then we have a major problem. Part of the decision of buying an EV for commercial purposes is to save on those expenses you mentioned and it's reliability it provides.�
Sep 30, 2014
bhuwan Within 30 days of expiration of the factory warranty.
Tesla�s extended service program covers the repair or replacement of Model S parts due to defects in materials or workmanship provided by Tesla. Coverage lasts for four years or 50,000 miles (whichever comes first) and begins on the date your warranty expires, as long as you purchase this service within 30 days of your warranty�s expiration.�
Sep 30, 2014
Chris TX Nope:
EXTENDED SERVICE AGREEMENT
Tesla�s extended service program covers the repair or replacement of Model S parts due to defects in materials or workmanship provided by Tesla. Coverage lasts for four years or 50,000 miles (whichever comes first) and begins on the date your warranty expires, as long as you purchase this service within 30 days of your warranty�s expiration.
The OP's issues is that this was used for commercial purposes, which puts a higher-than-usual amount of wear and tear on all parts. That's one of the reasons Tesla didn't offer them extended warranty, from what he's saying. That charger was used at least 550 times to do probably over 40kWh worth of work each time, or more. However, like others have stated, I do wonder if the previously failed contactors could have placed some unpleasant conditions for the charger. This would be a good test case for Tesla to look into for RCA. If the OP pays for the replacement of the part, PLEASE retain the old one! Myself and other EE types would love to crack it open and see how/why it failed. If Tesla wants to keep the part, there's no reason the OP should pay for replacement.�
Sep 30, 2014
skboston Oh, great!
I need to take some reading lessons, I've must have read that part more than 10 times and still left with the wrong impression about the extended warranty.�
Sep 30, 2014
tomas Yes hasty on both extended warranty and previously on battery warranty. Plz be careful, especially on a doomsday thread like this. Unfortunate that some are having repeated failures but important to accurately note long battery and drivetrain warranties as well as availability of extended warranty. I know it is little comfort for the few affected but it's pretty clear by their words and actions that tesla intends to do right - they increased scope of battery warranty and added drivetrain warranty voluntarily.�
Sep 30, 2014
invisik Bummer. Ok I would be pissed if the Service Center couldn't get me in for a week when the car can't charge at all.
Maybe the $58k salvage guy will want to part his? I'd ask the Service Center first if you brought them a used charger if they'll still install and program it.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/36214-San-Diego-Man-s-58-000-Nightmare-with-a-(Salvage-Title)-Tesla-Model-S
Other salvages out there that might part out? Can't hurt to ask I suppose. (never dealt with one before myself).. Googled and found this one:
http://erepairables.com/salvage-cars-auction/tesla
Nothing on eBay of interest..... Sorry, feel for ya. May have to spend the cash. Cost of business I guess.
Oh, did they hard reboot the car by pulling whatever fuse it is from the fusebox? Couldn't hurt.
-m�
Sep 30, 2014
mkjayakumar For those that keep pointing out that OP's car was used for commercial purposes, how is that situation different if someone had simply driven that many miles in that period for personal use ?
Also Any car driven for 65k miles, irrespective of the duration would have exercised the charger the same number of times. So this should only be seen as a failure at 65k miles�
Sep 30, 2014
skboston Yeah, I'm hoping it's just an early production unit that failed and they've made improvements on the newer ones, but it's still a concern if major component fails like that.
I don't consider this a doomsday thread, it points very valid concerns over using the car for commercial purposes and if Tesla is not allowing to purchase extended warranty on commercial cars it's a sign for trouble.�
Sep 30, 2014
Chris TX It's because a commercial vehicle is almost certain to be used like the OP's. Non-commercial use would typically be much less (yes, you'll always find a non-commercial owner whose driving habits would mimic the OP's). This is similar to most anything and is not unique to Tesla Motors nor automobiles in general. Ever come across a usage contract with a checkbox for "Is this used for commercial purposes?"�
Sep 30, 2014
skboston Commercial vehicle or not, the part that broke it's pretty new and in this hopefully rare occasion it did and it's a good chunk of money to replace at such young age.�
Sep 30, 2014
ecarfan Hmm.. So far no one has questioned that statement.
I assume you have an 85. When new a full charge would be no more than 265 rated miles, the number shown in the center display.
Where in the display does the car "show about 280 on a full charge"?�
Sep 30, 2014
skboston If you change the rated miles in the control panel to ideal miles, it should be about 300.�
Sep 30, 2014
CHG-ON Yes, I am getting the extended warranty. It's new tech.�
Sep 30, 2014
islandbayy I hear ya. Trust me, I'm still chugging along. Tesla service has been great, and above and beyond what was expected or required. I just feel that, even while having what I would consider a earlier VIN (09846), that some of these problems should have been foreseen. My worries are what happens after warranty is up. I was told by the service center that my pack (The contactor) could have been repaired on site at a much lower cost out of warranty (No one has gotten to that point of being out of warranty for that type of repair, so no known cost at this time), however, they wanted the quickest turn around (Appreciated), and to send mine back for analysis. I just think that contactors, especially with how many have reported that failure, should not happen.
Just, so many things that should be so much better, have so much more reliability. I really hope they will pull through this. I can also say, with the last Model S loaner I had in the late 40,000's VIN, over 4th of July weekend while mine was getting the Titanium armor and some other minor stuff taken care of, the quality level has improved drastically in terms of Fit and Finish (accept for the Frunk latch bend that seems to plague newer cars), cant speak for battery or drivetrain reliability, as I was only able to put about 1,000 miles on that loaner before returning it the following Monday.
I know things will improve over time, and in just 1 short year, they did make those Leaps and Bounds improvements. Unfortunately, some of us early guys are going to end up taking it in the rear (my opinion) after our warranties run out.
Amped, yes, I can still get the extended at the $4,000 price tag. Still a lot harder to swallow given that it was $2,500 if I got that when I ordered my car, and even more so given that the Extended warranty would be expired by the end of next year due to mileage. That $4,000 could so much better be spent for 6 more car payments, potential upgrades, or even a upgrade to a 85kWh battery if they'd ever let me, or even a awesome vacation for my lil guys.
I am/was Wisconsin's first electric car dealer of full street legal EV's (Full Size conversions, not NEV's or Golf Carts), and I also sold the Zap Cars for a while (which were complete and utter CRAP). I've done 26 conversions to date. I have never had a car come back due to a major failure. Some have 40-50,000 miles using Lead Acid batteries, and being used just as short range commuter cars and food deliver (pizza and chinese take out). The worst I have had to do was change out a lead acid battery pack. that was only his second pack at about 45,000 miles, and only required a $1,000 check and a trip to Walmart for another set of 10 Everstart Deep Cycle MAXX batteries. The only motor failure I've had was my first conversion, where I pushed a small 72v D&D motor at 800 amps at about 80mph in 5th gear on a old Alfa Romeo Spider, that one went POP then Sizzle
Sorry, off topic again. I'm highly Caffeinated right now and accidentally slipped into Keyboard Commando mode.
I will close my post with this.
I KNOW Tesla is working their butts off to Improve things. I have and will continue to give my full support. I want, No, NEED Tesla to Succeed. They have done on a massive scale what no one else has, and that is bring Long Range electric travel to the masses, and so far, have done it better then everyone else has. Better doesn't mean perfect.
I want to see Tesla GET IT PERFECT, and I KNOW they can achieve, or nearly achieve Perfect. As you did Tesla with the Drivetrain Warranty. Please don't leave us early guys behind. We're here pushing and selling these vehicles for you, as well as being Ginny pigs in the mean time. On top of that, my Respect for the Roadster Owners is Astronomical for undertaking Tesla's "Alpha" experiment.
/Caffeine High Curved�
Sep 30, 2014
brianman Incorrect.
�
Sep 30, 2014
Pmacafee The figure is rated miles, and is in the center of the speedo. So far so good on charge rating, though I thought that I saw on other posts that the depletion curve might have got steeper on older batteries so that the actual driven miles were less than the rated figure.
- - - Updated - - -
The Tesla lease cost twice as much as a Lincoln Towncar lease, so offset that with gas and maybe maintenance. I was hoping to break even.
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So we are a mom and pop business, charges like this are not just a journal entry, this comes right off the top, is our food and rent. Whether the business pays taxes on it as profit (elusive) or whether she and I can put this in our bank account at the end of the year, it just plain hurts.�
Sep 30, 2014
apacheguy Refurbished parts out of warranty?
So this thread has me thinking. What does Tesla do with most failed parts such as on board chargers, battery packs, consoles, etc.? They refurbish them, right? Isn't that what we've learned from all the pack failures?
If the on board chargers are refurbishable then why would it cost $3300 out of warranty? The part itself, brand new, only costs $1500 according to a new vehicle config. Refurb should be 1/2 that amount. Am I the only one wondering why Tesla charges $3300 to replace a failed master charger? It shouldn't be that way.�
Sep 30, 2014
Gizmotoy A new charger for a car that's never had one is $3600. So you'd expect the replacement of a charger with a new part would be in that ballpark. Based on the price, I'd say he should be getting a new part, not a refurbished one.�
Oct 1, 2014
tom66 Just because Tesla charge $1,500 for the option doesn't mean it costs them that much. They could be selling it at a loss to encourage other options.
It certainly is odd that dual chargers - a genuinely useful feature - costs $1,500, whereas fancy interior lighting costs $1,000.�
Oct 1, 2014
mkjayakumar 280 rated range? I know the battery was changed but even new ones don't have that much right ?�
Oct 1, 2014
landover No you're right, My car new had 272 at max charge. Now at 15,000 miles I'm getting 263 rated range. Im guessing the OP does not drive the car, someone else drives it, he just owns it. Sense this car is driven daily you would think he would know exactly how many more miles he could drive. Unless tesla has improved his new battery by 8 miles? idk?�
Oct 1, 2014
rlang59 He is probably just using Ideal miles.�
Oct 1, 2014
tomas installation during production costs FAR less. No disassembly/reassembly. Lower inventory and logistics costs too.�
Oct 1, 2014
scaesare 
�
Oct 1, 2014
apacheguy
Well, that's labor costs you're including. I want to know the price for an actual refurbed unit. I'd love to see the invoice when the car is returned from service.�
Oct 1, 2014
tomas OP says estimate was "to replace". That would typically be parts and labor. So, we do not know part price, or if that estimate assumed new or refurbished.�
Oct 1, 2014
Gizmotoy Well, yes, clearly. Is there some assumption he's getting the labor for free?
I'd be surprised if they used a refurb part for out of warranty work. Sometimes OEMs use refurbs while in warranty to cut costs, but rarely do the same after expiration.
Either way, I agree the part cost would be interesting to learn.�
Oct 1, 2014
ckessel I feel bad for the OP. Aside from the expense, he's out the use of the car which is how they make their living. And he's been out that use several times. That's expensive.
Gas cars have a hell of a lot more moving parts, but the technology has gotten so refined it's typically incredibly reliable. Tesla (and EVs in general) needs to not just have great service, they need their cars to blow gas cars away in terms of reliability.�
Oct 1, 2014
apacheguy Yes, we do. It should be on the invoice. They bill parts and labor separately.�
Oct 1, 2014
tomas My point was that people acting as if part price was $3300 are assuming estimate included no labor, which I doubt. True, repair invoices are itemized, but who knows if estimate was? When/if OP posts invoice, then we would know.�
Oct 1, 2014
rcc That would be a reasonable assumption if you were buying a car from an established auto manufacturer with a track record of turning out high quality mid or high volume vehicles.
What we had in this case though was a startup company with a no track record of anything but boutique assembly, totally new car, totally new production line. In a case like that, the extended warranty seemed like a reasonable decision. Heck, the only reason I bought the car at all was because they'd hired industry manufacturing veterans from big companies like Ford.
And yes, after a test drive, I bought stock too�
Oct 1, 2014
ckessel Warranties are a function of both time and miles, so if you're vastly under on one of them you lose a decent chunk of the warranty value. Some of the items that fail have little or nothing to do with miles driven. For example, if you're putting 100k a year on a car, you're probably not opening and closing the sun roof nearly as many times as someone that puts 100k miles on over 8 years.
I can fully understand not getting the extended warranty in that situation.�
Oct 1, 2014
Electric700 Pmacafee, can Tesla just repair the charger, especially for over $3,000? We might just be talking about a $3 wire that needs to be replaced. Tesla should use this as an opportunity to improve their design so that these types of failures can be prevented. Also, contact [email�protected].�
Oct 1, 2014
skboston There is no possible way that the charger costs so much money including labor, parts are just another way of making money and Tesla and it's approved body shops are no different, opinion I've formed over the topics I've read on these forums.
$2000+ for a charger sounds a bit steep, perhaps there are people our here that have made their own chargers I'm sure, so they can chime in on the subject of cost. I met a Canadian guy on an electric motorcycle couple weeks ago that had replaced the 1kW charger on his bike with a 13kW charger built on his own to charge the fast on the road, I should have asked him how much it costed him to put it together.
You can't possibly convince me that it would take 10 hours of labor to replace the charger(assuming $100 per hour labor rate and $2000 cost for a charger), Tesla is well designed vehicle with fairly easy to reach components and I'm sure the access to the charger won't be hard, but I could be wrong, really have no clue where it is, just my thought.�
Oct 1, 2014
Gizmotoy The chargers are relatively easy to access under the rear seats. The seats are kind of a pain to remove, but not 10 hours worth.�
Oct 1, 2014
Pmacafee Good point. If Musk says the drive unit problems came down to a single wire, then maybe the same for the charge unit.
About contacting ownership, tell me more about this.
-P�
Oct 1, 2014
skboston @Gizmotoy
Thanks! You learn new things everyday.
Essentially the charger should be something similar to what the HPWC looks inside, control board, fuse and solid wire connectors, maybe it's an issue that could be repaired, but Tesla so far insists of replacing everything that breaks, so I'd be pleasantly surprised if the SC takes the unit out and try to find out what's wrong with it and if something simple, just repair and put back on.�
Oct 1, 2014
Chris TX Keep in mind these things are water cooled. When you R&R then, you're opening up the cooling system and they might need to drain it and refill. It's not just pop the seat up and swap.�
Oct 1, 2014
Canuck Will you continue to use the car in your business when you get it back from service?�
Oct 1, 2014
skboston I tried doing a search to find out if the on-board chargers are liquid cooled or not, but couldn't find anything definitive. If they are liquid cooled, then things might be a bit more sophisticated, but still not ~10 hours worth.�
Oct 1, 2014
islandbayy
The cooling system has a automatic bleed function. Tech plugs laptop in, tells the car to bleed the system, and the car does. Takes about 30 minutes. If the coolant level gets low during this time, tech tops coolant off.
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They are Liquid Cooled. I've seen them in person.�
Oct 1, 2014
Pmacafee In the process of Shopping the car 2 years ago, and then driving the Model S, I have become a huge fan of electric cars, and the future of EVs. I and all my drivers certified to drive the Model S absolutely love the car. Man passengers do too. Others still prefer the roomier soft ride of a Lincoln Towncar while they are still around. I will have to see how much we are upside down on our lease and make a business decision for our company. Maybe we are just a little too early in adopting these vehicles for the rigors of commercial use.�
Oct 1, 2014
ckessel Out of curiosity, why did you lease a car that you'd put so many miles on? A lease usually has penalties for excess mileage and with your usage you would be way, way beyond normal.�
Oct 1, 2014
SarahsDad 280 rated miles is certainly on the high side even for a new car but OP says he got a "rebuilt" battery just 4 wks ago. So essentially new.�
Oct 2, 2014
Electric700 That e-mail address is good to report suggestions and issues that you're having. So, you can put in an e-mail to [email�protected] this charger problem that you're having and request the unit be repaired (e.g. let's say hypothetically that all it requires is a $3 wire replacement). Also I'd mention that this is not the first issue you're having in a little over one year since you got the car new.
I hope it works out in your favor!�
Oct 2, 2014
tomas I'd add that ownership@ has recently kicked emails to local service center and response comes from them. Not sure how to play this. If service center has been less than helpful then it might make sense to mention in email. Of course they may send that along too!�
Oct 2, 2014
AmpedRealtor I was told the new email address is [email�protected].�
Oct 2, 2014
twinklejet you know, despite the fact that this was a commercial use case, it's still scary for people who plan on keeping the car long-term.. it's like IKEA testing their rocking chairs with a machine to rock it back and forth 1,000,000 times to simulate years of use... pmacafee has been putting the miles on his model s, giving it accelerated aging so we can see what our personal model s(es) will be like after 50k miles or more.. I'm really hoping it's just because his model is an early vin because if the 2014 vins coming out of the factory are exhibiting these issues after 50k miles regardless of warranty coverage, it's really scary to be an owner..�
Oct 2, 2014
glhs272 The onboard charger is nothing like the HPWC. The HPWC is not a charger really, it is an EVSE (Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment), a glorified switch and extention cable really. The HPWC just turns A/C power on and off. The onboard charger converts A/C 120-240 volts to DC 300-400 volts. Entirely different. The onboard charger is more like a 1/12th of a supercharger.
I was hoping to see that Tesla would honor Elon's comment about not trying to make money off of service visits. Labor aside, I sincerely doubt it cost's Tesla $3600 for each charger unit. So I see this as Tesla failing to live up to Elon's stated vision.
I hope this improves. My experience so far with my car, is it just works. I have seen none of these teething problems that some have had. Maybe I am lucky. Or maybe these issues are really rare, but we hear about them on this site, which sorta amplifies it. Either way, going forward it is the out-of-warrenty repairs that have me most worried. It is a bit frustrating because it seems the car itself is easy to repair, compared to some of the work I have done with my ICE vehicles. A lot of stuff on this car is just unplug said bad module and replace with new. The diagnostics would be far simpler if Tesla would just allow us access to those tools. A bit of caution needs to be exercised when working on the high voltage stuff, but this is not unheard of situation.�
Oct 2, 2014
Pmacafee We are always upside down in the middle of a lease, no matter what the vehicle is. We keep the vehicle for the entire period of the lease. We use a lease structure because the accounting is much easier, no guessing about depreciation, etc. At the end of the lease, we assign a small value $5k or so. The cars always turn to someone else in the livery business a little further down the food chain. There is a risk if the car is totaled in the middle of the lease and we have to write a check to square with the leasing company.
-P�
Oct 2, 2014
Electric700 That address replaces [email�protected]?�
Oct 2, 2014
rlang59 Probably replaces service@�
Oct 2, 2014
AmpedRealtor I was told that it did, but probably best to send to both. My original email to Ownership went without response for two days, but when I sent email a 2nd time I was told that ServiceNA is the correct email address.�
Oct 2, 2014
Luclyluciano
Very well put. My sentiments exactly and sure many many other's.
Been reading these forums. Very close to deciding on my next car but the reliability scares me. I don't care about the warrantee. I'd rather not have to use it ever. That's what I prefer.
Aldo read about the many who have had zero issues but have to admit, I don't get it. Consistency doesn't se there yet.
A local owner recommended I wait a few years.�
Oct 3, 2014
Pmacafee
Electirc700 and others that made helpful suggestions;
Late last night (Thursday), I sent off the following message:
Hello;
I received my Model S in April of 2013, vin 5YJSA1DN6DFP05782.
We are now on our 4[SUP]th[/SUP] drive unit this year and then the battery failed had to be rebuilt in Fremont last month. On Monday of this week, the car would not charge and the Burlingame service center said the onboard charge unit had failed and it would cost $3300 to replace it. I am alarmed about the repeated failures in the car�s drive system and am especially concerned if Tesla does not consider the onboard charge unit to be part of the drive train. There is also a nagging concern that last month�s battery failure in some way affected the charge unit. The car could not be scheduled for repair until next Monday, leaving it unusable for a week before repairs could begin.
(+contact info including my cell#)
My cell rang very early this morning with a call from the Burlingame service center to let me know that a time slot had opened up for today, and could I bring the car right over.
This afternoon, they called back to say they were making good progress on replacing the charge units and the cost would be covered under "goodwill". In doing their normal complete inspection of a car under service, they discovered that the baffle plates over the radiator had failed and they would replace those also under "goodwill". About 2 hours later my cellphone rang with a call from the Fleet Sales Manager to see how things were. I was not able to take the call at the time and will call him back early next week.
Needless to say, much relieved. Thanks very much to all for passing along the Tesla Service "acupuncture point".�
Oct 3, 2014
invisik Awesome!�
Oct 3, 2014
russman Glad to see they are going to take care of you.
For those of you who are not concerned that a car with these few miles having this many issues should really think again. This is possibly your car in 3-5 years and I'm sure you'd be pissed if you had this problem. Also, Tesla's extended warranty, which requires a deductible for each out of warranty issue is not the right answer, but may be the only answer. For those of us who drive high miles, makes it very much not worth it. I'm going at a rate of 21k miles a year which makes the extended warranty void in less than 5 years. If I have to pay a deductible for each item, that can get more expensive quickly, thus defeating the so called benefit of low maintenance EV car.�
Oct 4, 2014
bullgates Hello All,
First post so please be gentle. I have followed Tesla with great enthusiasm over the years as they are challenging the system which can only be helpful especially to a stagnant industry. NOTE to ICE manufacturers (adding media options in car is not innovation). Changing driving habits is innovation. I was skeptical when my brother put a deposit down on a Roadster and did my best to talk him out of it. (My brother was always a trendsetter/innovator, I am a skeptical early adopter (<-----OXYMORON). He eventually cancelled his deposit on the Roadster not because of what I said but his financial situation called for it. The funny thing is that his resolve and interest in tesla, spacex, and Elon only continued to grow. I started doing my research and was genuinely impressed because of the concept of challenging the system in these different industries. Through change and destruction we should build better and more capable systems. This of course needs to be ongoing or you will have stagnation. This thread has these concepts present.
I think what is happening in this thread is great for the most part if you choose to see it.
You have someone that is using the car in way that creates an outlier in the system. This is a perfect example for the general audience to see what can happen. I stress CAN ; not WILL. NO reason to get bent out of shape and act like this guy should eat it because he has a business. The things is that he is doing all current,future owners, and Tesla a great service.
In this example we can see warranty/reliability anxiety from current and potential owners. Some animosity (improperly placed). Also we see how Tesla responds (maybe somewhat inorganically but consistent based on past performance). This is real world application. If I were Tesla I would be paying people to test drive cars cross country and in city each day. I hear they make great use of the data they collect but I don't know if they subject these cars to real world conditions.
Also there seem to be some speculation that the price is too high for this service when have no real world numbers other than new build (unless I am missing something). From past readings and experience I can hope with great certainty that the Service Centers are truly a zero profit area. Based on what people have seen and experienced would it not be best to trust that they honor that commitment as it is very integral to growth and education of the public about the value of Tesla and EV.
I have to commend all early adopters and investors that took the risk to build/buy such a concept car. It's a concept car not because of the look but because of what it stands for.
Have a good night all...
PS I do have a tendency to ramble but eventually I will make a point.�
Oct 4, 2014
UberEV1 @bullgates - welcome to the forum! Agree with your first paragraph, but not 100% aligned on last. I think the roadster was more of the concept car, while Model S represents crossing the chasm, albeit setting a new bar for innovation and driving experience. Nonetheless, you raise some good questions about reasonable expectations. e.g. What should the Model S cost to maintain (post warranty)?
I did a quick Google search and found this article, which summarizes maintenance and repair costs for a variety of 2008 model year cars. As expected, the luxury cars cost more to maintain, with the BMW 750Li having a 5-year maintenance and repair cost of just under $17K ($3,400 per year avg). Lexus, a common industry benchmark, shows $9,000 over 5 years (IS350), which is $1,800 per year. If Model S were just another luxury vehicle, which it most certainly is not, but if, then maybe we would think $3,400 to say $5000 per year would be expected. However, as Elon is striving for a truly lower cost of ownership form of transportation (another aspect of the company's "innovation"), then maybe we should expect something closer to the Lexus or even lower.
So what should we expect as a truly innovative annual maintenance cost for the Model S? Let me start the bidding at <$2500 per year..??..�
Oct 4, 2014
bullgates I should have been more clear about my commendations for investors and purchasers. It extends to both the Roadster and the Model S. Both are concept cars but the MS is certainly a more challenging car based on it being a daily driver for a family. It just has so much more utility and (mass) appeal than the Roadster.�
Oct 4, 2014
Electric700 Wow, that's awesome! Glad I could help and I hope that the car works perfectly from now on�
Oct 4, 2014
mkjayakumar Tesla can do this one off 'Goodwill' service for free but it cannot be a sustainable service model, even for a nonprofit service center.�
Oct 4, 2014
glhs272 Kudos to Tesla for doing this as "goodwill". Until we have more alternative service options, us owners will be relying on Tesla's goodwill.�
Oct 4, 2014
AmpedRealtor Great result!�
Oct 4, 2014
Chris TX Congrats, and may your Model S keep making your company money! If I was in the area and needed a lift, I would look your company up!
Interesting that Tesla just announced 100 Model S taxis at Schiphol airport!
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152727364472801&set=vb.18790602800&type=2&theater�
Dec 21, 2014
cwerdna Agreed.
Yep. Does anyone have a pointer to details on that 500K mile Model S? What did they fix? How many drive units and battery packs did they go through or how many fixes did they have to make that were drive unit related? It's great if it was 0. If so, they need to be able to consistently deliver that a very high % of their customers.
On the note of Prius, as I posted at Highest Mileage - Page 3
Unfortunately, the above Prius v from January 2012 didn't hold up as well.
He ended up replacing the engine at 365K miles (Prius v: 300,000 miles club | Page 8 | PriusChat) in November 2014. Then he developed some other costly problems so he called it quits at 369K miles around mid-December 2014: Prius v: 300,000 miles club | Page 10 | PriusChat. He replaced it with a '14 Prius v wagon.
Since someone else mentioned IKEA testing rocking chairs, there are some comments to a post I made at My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Official Tesla Model S thread (video at Nissan Proves Commercial Vehicle Toughness in Extreme Arizona Desert - YouTube) w/Nissan having a company test their NV 3500 van, where they put on over 1/2 million miles in 32 months. And, as I posted there they mentioned 7500 miles/week, 80K miles in 3 months. They showed a van w/557K miles.�
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