Dec 6, 2014
uselesslogin To be clear I also expect all the window sticker values to be adjusted as well. I would think Tesla would want to do it just because they don't want people passing on a P85D because they think the range is worse. I see two possibilities myself. One is a blog post soon describing how the range is calculated under new rules and reducing the EPA range of all Model S variants. The other is that P85Ds start showing up with stickers that have a higher combined mileage on it because the EPA decided to allow it at the last minute (I think that is less likely). For me I am stuck on the combined MPGe being the same and the fact we can get 284 miles @65 mph from the math we tried with the 90% assumption. I'm sure there will be more info soon as people start taking deliveries.�
Dec 7, 2014
David_Cary +1
I believe the standard for retesting a car is substantial change in the car not model year. Of course P85D is a substantial change. I think it is possible that the performance emphasis, weight, and 21 in tires has made the difference. I also suspect that at 65 mph, the actual range is very close to (if not better than) a P85+.
In the Leaf world, the EPA numbers have been questioned since 2011. The numbers changed in 2013 both up and down - increased efficiency and rule change. The end result was exactly the same range at 65 mph. Forum members did the testing - it was the only way to get a real answer. If you compare model years, 2014 has the greatest range but will not travel further than any others at a steady state highway speed. In the Leaf case, MPGe went up like 10% but led to zero real world range increase. The range actually went up 15%. So it is funny to see us analyzing a much smaller change in MPGe and thinking it changes the true range. One of the Leaf issues was weight reduction but while that helped city MPGe, it did not change real world steady state range (in a measurable way).
Last comment - the EPA tests very few cars. Manufacturers test the cars. About 10-15% of new models are checked by the EPA as an audit. Hyundai was recently fined and I believe Ford got a pass but changed their numbers after fudging the tests. Not saying that Tesla did anything with the test. It should be noted that the testing conditions are up to interpretation and can be "wrong" with out true malice. Also the EV test is different but the fact is that conditions are up to interpretation. It is possible that testing conditions were different for the P85D even without a secret EPA rule change.�
Dec 7, 2014
Saghost I took a delta-variance approach that's much simpler than what you're doing, but still valid in this case I believe - there's no reason to think the charging losses will be any different on the P85D, so they don't matter in a delta analysis.
If the 265 number was based on pure city efficiency, then the P85D would be rated (86/88*265) = 259 miles with the same usable charge. If it was based on pure highway, it'd be (94/90*265) = 277 miles. With any ratio of the two driving types, you'd get a result between those two.
Thus my point - for the car to be rated 86/94 and 242 miles, the battery charge level *must* be different from the prior EPA testing. Any of the other factors folks are throwing out - 21" wheels, power biased efficiency, etc - would change the 86 and 94 MPGe numbers as well.
Walter�
Dec 7, 2014
felixtb +1!�
Dec 7, 2014
breser Problem solved. Tesla order page has been updated with EPA numbers.
S60: 208
S85: 265
S85D: 265
P85D (21" wheels): 242
P85D (19" wheels): 250
So the wheels were the big contributor to the 242 number. The weight, performance setup etc, is the reason for the 15 mile drop on the P85D.
There is a disclaimer saying the 85D and P85D is pending confirmation:
"Range shown for 85D and P85D is estimated, pending EPA confirmation. Range decreases when Model S is equipped with 21" wheels and summer sport tires."�
Dec 7, 2014
dennis Good find, and it is nice to know that it was not a change in the testing procedure or averaging 80% and 100% charges or ...
So 1/3 or the loss (8 miles) is due to the tires, and 2/3 (15 miles) to the dual motor config/weight. That means those of us trading up from P85/P85+ with 21's should see less of a decrease than originally indicated.�
Dec 7, 2014
darthy001 @Dennis but at the same time as this confirms that the sticker with 242miles of range is legit. That indirectly confirms that highway range is actually longer on the P85D than it was on the P85(+).
At least for me that is the important aspect. I never drive within the range limits in the city. Some extra highway-miles though that is very welcome:smile:�
Dec 7, 2014
vgrinshpun There was an email from Jerome Guillen implying that the difference in the EPA numbers is not due to change of EPA testing procedure (averaging range for 80% and 100% charge), but is due to different tuning of the two drive unit in P85D vs 85D.
Tesla Answers P85D Range Questions and Assesses Next Gen Seats Availability | Forums | Tesla Motors
�
Dec 7, 2014
gg_got_a_tesla The penny drops... I guess 250 miles (for my P85D with 19"s) is plenty good.�
Dec 7, 2014
dhanson865 How about we add back in all the numbers we know?
S60 208 miles EPA
S60D 225 miles (last number on US ordering website before they cancelled that model)
S85 265 miles EPA
P85 265 miles (last number on US ordering website before they cancelled that model)
P85+ ??? miles
S85 265 miles EPA
S85D 265 miles EPA (295 miles posted before EPA number)
P85D 19" 250 miles EPA (275 miles posted before EPA number)
P85D 21" 242 miles EPA
presumably if you hypermile the S85D you'll get more range than the S85 but YMMV.�
Dec 7, 2014
dennis Note that the 295 and 275 numbers were for a constant 65 mph, not for the EPA test cycle which varies speed and has a least 50% City driving profiles.�
Dec 7, 2014
darthy001 Didnt it actually say 285 for the P85D at the end?�
Dec 7, 2014
Rice390 This whole discussion is pretty disappointing to run through. While I have absolutely zero confidence the EPA can do anything right, we have to go by what has been posted because Tesla has given us nothing in return. Is 240 miles enough range for most of us? Sure. But that shouldn't be the focus. We all just dropped $120,000 on a 285 mile car, and the week of the first deliveries tesla says whoopsies, we meant 240. Are there any lawyers on this board that can clarify the legality of this?
That said - I'm going to give tesla the benefit of the doubt on these EPA numbers and I'll trust the actual reports from the customers when these get rolled out. If the customer numbers match up with the EPA, you can bet your bottom dollar there will be some legal ramifications if Tesla doesn't provide some discount to those who are getting something different than what we paid for. What a mess.�
Dec 7, 2014
Denarius All Tesla had in writing was that you could go 285 at 65 miles per hour. That has nothing to do with the EPA range.�
Dec 7, 2014
nolancn I can't quite make sense out of the EPA estimates for the P85D unless there is a different methodology in place for evaluating this vehicle relative to the S85. S85 has an overall MPGe of 89 as does the P85D. Highway/city efficiency for the S85 is 90 MPGe/88 MPGe while for the P85D highway/city efficiency is 94 MPGe/86 MPGe. P85D highway/city numbers were taken from a photograph of a P85D Monroney window sticker posted on the P85D delivery tread 12/4/2014. This would imply the P85D would be approximately 4.4% more efficient on the highway at whatever speed EPA highway numbers are derived and would travel further than the S85 at that speed. Tesla clearly stated that the D variants of the Model S would have greater efficiency (implying improved range) relative to the RWD variants. Given all of this I do not understand how the range for the P85D with 19" wheels would be 250 miles. Since both vehicles have the same battery this yields only two possibilities; Tesla was wrong about its initial statements, or there is a different methodology used to derive range for current models that was not in place when the S85 was originally tested. The latter seems to be more likely if the post showing the Moroney window sticker MPGe numbers are correct. Remember that the original stated range for the S85 was 300 miles only to be reduced to 265 miles as the EPA instituted a new 5 step testing procedure by the time the vehicle was actually being produced and delivered to customers.�
Dec 7, 2014
Saghost That's exactly the way I read the situation - which leaves me a little bit confused by the Jerome email.�
Dec 7, 2014
dennis The 300 number was an Ideal range at a constant 60 mph IIRC. When the EPA numbers came out at 265, Tesla added the Rated range setting and set the estimate for a full battery to 265 in that mode. You can still see 300 (on a new battery) if you switch the range display to Ideal in the control panel.�
Dec 7, 2014
breser That Jerome email isn't new I posted it many pages back. The only thing new is people are now reading more into it.�
Dec 7, 2014
wk057 Well, I for one am certainly disappointed in the drop in range estimate for the P85D. I don't care what they put behind the number on the page (65 MPH, EPA, whatever). Doesn't matter. It said "285 miles" for the P85D before. Now it says "242 miles." That's 38 miles lost between the time I placed my deposit and today with no compensation.
I have the P85. EPA miles of 265. On a 100% charge in good weather the best I've ever been able to do was 249 miles with 4 miles left, so, ~253 miles on a charge. I've never reached the 265 estimate even with very conservative driving. So, when it says 242 miles to me that means 225 as a top possible now since the estimates/rated/etc numbers are never right. When it said 285, I figured 260 would be pretty possible. With the 85D I was figuring 270 might be normal (295 estimate).
The range estimate makes no sense if the P85D and the P85 have the same combined MPGe, however, so something is definitely wrong with these numbers.�
Dec 7, 2014
PlanB Jerome has an Oregon cell number, that's cool.�
Dec 7, 2014
wk057 Just expanding on my example of what I posted above:
Glen Allen, VA supercharger, 100% charged at 267 rated miles. 78F outside, no extreme terrain in between (I-95 and I-295 in NJ, both pretty flat overall). No climate control on (was set to fan only at some point during the trip, no A/C). 9:53PM.
Garage in NJ (skipped Woodbridge, VA and Newark, DE superchargers). 4 rated miles left, 249.0 miles traveled, 73.1 kWh used at 294 Wh/mi. 66F. 1:59AM. (non-stop, 4 hours 6 minutes of driving for an average speed of 60.73 MPH)
So with a speed average of around 61 MPH I couldn't even hit 265 miles...
On a side note, a confusing thing is that 0.294 kWh * 265 miles is still only 77.91kWh... which would leave ~8kWh (~9%) of the battery capacity unaccounted for... yet I was "dead" at just ~74kWh, 13% of the battery unused/unusable.
- - - Updated - - -
Suffice it to say, the range estimates are hogwash regardless. If the AWD is more efficient we should get more range. If it isn't, we won't. If we don't get more range, then the AWD is not actually more efficient as claimed. Period. Just give me a battery % meter or Wh remaining meter and do away with this estimated range nonsense for people who choose not to utilize it, like myself.�
Dec 7, 2014
uselesslogin Before I go on I have to say I have entered the camp of I have no clue at this point and really can't and won't argue against anyone's speculation. However one can keep the 90% theory is also that the regular RWD variants also have better range than they did in 2012. So in theory the "old formula" EPA range for the Model S could be like 280 instead of 265 but Tesla doesn't want to retest it because of the new formula. So then the "old formula" P85D 19" tires is 277 miles range which is still less than the current Model S variant. Anyway that is easily all crazy talk and grasping at straws but I wanted to throw it out there. I will be interested in owner's reports at this point and it would be nice if we got a blog post tomorrow providing more details. MPGe values are still confusing at this point. In a way I hope the stock tanks on Monday so that we can get an explanation faster. I suppose we'll get silence though if the news is Tesla misled tons of customers.�
Dec 7, 2014
wk057 I'd be pretty surprised if someone doesn't do an article along those lines... I personally, admittedly, share this view at the moment. I mean, it's almost bait and switch :-\
Yeah yeah! 285 miles!...... sike! 242!�
Dec 7, 2014
liuping Are you sure the heater did not turn on? if it 66F out, it might have kicked in with you realizing it. I know in some versions of the software (not sure if it's still true or not) climate control power is not included in the dash "Total Energy" display, so that may account for some of lost range.�
Dec 7, 2014
wk057 100% sure, no, but I never really used the climate control on that trip when it got cooler (< 70F). Just the fan for a bit after leaving Glen Allen to keep the cabin comfy, then nothing afterwards.�
Dec 7, 2014
dennis It is hard for me to be sympathetic with this issue when the ordering page clearly stated 285 miles range at a constant 65 mph, not an EPA range number. You can choose to ignore those words and compare apples with oranges if you wish, but that is not Tesla's doing.�
Dec 7, 2014
vgrinshpun Seriously?? Would you agree that range at steady highway speed of 65 mpg - 285 miles - could be true, while 242 miles range at different, EPA specified mixture of city, suburban and highway driving, could be also true?
What's misleading? Where is bait and switch? Didn't you know that range at steady highway speed CAN NOT be the same as for a mixture of city, suburban and highway driving?
This is the reason EPA sticker has three MPGe numbers: city, highway and combined.�
Dec 7, 2014
AlMc +1: Initially I was a little frustrated that the numbers did not match but I realized TM and the EPA numbers are obtained under different testing conditions. I have no problem with combined mileage of about 240 which would be my daily driving with even better highway mileage of the P85D over my P85+.�
Dec 7, 2014
nwdiver I wonder how much that range could be improved via software... no doubt there's a lot of tweaking they could do in terms of road conditions / regen / acceleration / speed in terms of which motor is getting more power.�
Dec 7, 2014
vgrinshpun I am thinking along the same lines. During the D presentation Elon mentioned three modes for the P85D: normal, sport and insane. Actual cars, however, so far, have only two settings: sport and insane. Elon also mentioned during the presentation that there will be some software tweaks to refine the coordination between the two driving units in D models. Based on this I believe that at some point in not too distant future P85D models will have additional mode added - normal. I suspect that actual range in this normal mode will be very close to the (higher) range of the 85D, because efficiency will be given first priority over the acceleration, unlike for the two other modes - sport and insane.
What is being lost in all this storm of opinions on EPA vs non-EPA range numbers at various conditions is what Elon actually said during the presentation and some press appearances after the D event: that peak efficiency of the front and rear drive units are appearing at different speeds. Based on this allocation of varying split between the front and rear drive units can allow for optimization of the efficiency for various driving conditions.�
Dec 7, 2014
wk057 According to the windows sticker postings, the combined MPGe is the same for the P85D and the P85 (89 MPGe). I would say the EPA "mixture of city, suburban and highway driving" would be this combined number, no? So a combined city/hwy drive by the EPA should yield the same range number as the P85 at the very least?
The point is that Tesla specifically said it was more efficient. Then they went and posted outrageous range numbers to support this. Then they pulled them back and replaced them with the EPA numbers that were worse than the original P85.�
Dec 7, 2014
liuping The P85D is more efficient on the highway.
In my experience, range has never been an issue when doing local/city driving, only on long distance highway driving. Regardless of the EPA range number, the P85D will have better range than the S85 or the P85 when traveling long distances.�
Dec 7, 2014
dennis Or Tesla posted the steady 65mph numbers because they didn't have EPA numbers at the time of the announcement . And the P85D does worse in the EPA test because it is heavier and that test includes acceleration and city type driving that are not present in the steady 65 mph case. And it does even worse with 21" wheels, while all of the other EPA numbers have been done with 19" wheels.
I'd also like to point out that while there are a few people who have ordered the P85D that are upset by the lower number, there are a larger number on this forum who are not, including me. I'm not worried about the EPA combined number because I see that the P85D has better MPGe in the highway test and that is where I am concerned about range. Plus I am trading up from my P+ for better performance, better handling and AWD. I can live with an EPA number that is 8% less in exchange for a 0-60 time that is the same as a McLaren 12C.�
Dec 7, 2014
breser I'm sure some people are wondering why the P85D has separate EPA numbers for 21" wheels while other vehicles do not. I spent some time digging into what they have to test and when. In the process I came across regulations that say they must include options if the manufacturer expects more than 33% of the vehicles made to include them. I'd guess that Tesla had to do the 21" wheels for the P85D as a result. The 85 kWh RWD vehicles could all be classified together because the vehicle configurations (according to the things the regulations care about) are the same. It lists off things like the Engine, Transmission, etc... As far as I can tell the vehicle configuration code isn't oriented towards electric vehicles and as such doesn't mention the inverter. So as far as the regulations are concerned the S85, P85, P85+ are all the same vehicle. Since most of the 85 kWh vehicles weren't ordered as P85, P85+ or with 21" wheels, Tesla didn't have to include that in the configuration they tested.
Also as far as I can tell there is no regulation requiring Tesla to retest every model year. Only when the vehicle configuration changes is retesting required. So I believe that the 85D and P85D are the first times Tesla has had to retest since the Model S first was tested in 2012.�
Dec 7, 2014
vgrinshpun Tesla said that D models are more efficient that RWD models at highway speed (65mph), and it is correct, as proven by the information included on EPA sticker. It shows 90MPGe on hwy for RWD models and 94MPGe for P85D. So here you have it - P85D is 4.4% more efficient than RWD models. Why do you think that Tesla misled you??�
Dec 7, 2014
dennis Great explanation! Thank you for researching this and presenting us with facts.�
Dec 7, 2014
wk057 I've already explained why.
Ah well, to each their own.
When I unplug my car after a 100% charge, immediately jump on the highway, set the cruise to 65 MPH, the dash will show the advertised 285 miles remaining right?�
Dec 7, 2014
vgrinshpun Yes, if you drive under the same conditions (temperature, humidity, elevation change, etc.) as Tesla tested it.�
Dec 7, 2014
liuping There is an extremely high probability that you will go further than you are able to in a S85 or P85.�
Dec 7, 2014
gg_got_a_tesla +1. Thanks, @breser; it all seems to make sense now.�
Dec 7, 2014
wk057 I guess we'll see. I've made a 600 mile trip to/from the same destination with my P85 about 14 times now (each eay). I'm pretty comfortable with how range behaves on the P85 under various conditions and I'll be able to easily tell if the P85D is more or less efficient. And yes, I've driven the P85 with 21's on this trip also...�
Dec 7, 2014
bluenation the thing is, tesla said AWD would make things more efficient, and therefore slightly more range. Now, unless EPA testing process changed between the old S85 and the new 85D, AND assuming EPA indeed ends up rating the 85D as 265 , that means tesla was lying, or at least, guilty of exagerration.
I do sympathize with customers who are disappointed. Hopefully these issues will get sorted out in the coming...months. or years.�
Dec 7, 2014
breser Lying? I don't think so. Maybe they didn't explain all the nuances of the situation. But I don't think they were lying. When people are concerned about range they are typically doing highway miles. Is anyone here really concerned about losing some range when doing all city driving? I haven't seen anyone here seriously concerned about that. The only people that I can think of that would be seriously impacted by lower city range would be people using the Model S as a taxi or livery vehicle. I can't imagine anyone would order a P85D for that purpose. I would imagine that if someone was ordering an 85D for that purpose Tesla would warn them that they would want the S85 instead, provided that the sales people knew (they may not have).
What I have seen is a lot of people complaining based purely based on numbers. A number that in actuality doesn't really mean anything. The 265 on the S85 didn't mean you could do 265 miles in all circumstances. I never got close to it, not that I really tried in the 2 months I had my S85. Given the fact that the AWD vehicles perform so much better on the highway I'd expect it'd be much easier to get the rated range on the highway.
So before we start jumping on Tesla and tossing around things about lying, deception, or even threatening to law suits. Let's just wait for people to get their cars and find out if the highway mileage is actually there. wk057 says he will be able to find out rather easily, assuming he doesn't cancel his order.
If you have P85D order and you're really bothered by this I suggest that you talk to Tesla. Don't start accusing them of being deceptive, just have a conversation like a reasonable adult. If after you have that conversation you're still not satisfied then I suggest you refuse delivery. Given the change in mileage I think you'd have a reasonable case to justify getting your deposit back, but you're not necessarily guaranteed to get that. But you're going to get a lot farther with Tesla by being reasonable.�
Dec 7, 2014
SteveG3 I agree with Breser... I see no indication Tesla lied.
The constant 65 mph range numbers indicate that the dual motor version of the cars are more efficient at highway driving, which is where range is far more often important than city driving.
That said, I don't remember whether Tesla said more efficient or more efficient in highway driving. I would have preferred that they would have said the latter... just as I'd prefer all the ICE makers who now have various modes ("Eco", "Sport", etc) quote me mpgs and 0-60 times for each mode, but they don't. I find this to be a case where Tesla presented the information in a manner similar to other automakers. I think Tesla handles many things better than other automakers, but some things about the same as the rest.�
Dec 7, 2014
breser Here's where he talks about efficiency and range (link goes right to the part of presentation talking about efficiency):
Tesla Unveils Dual Motor and Autopilot - YouTube
No he doesn't say it's only highway, but in the case of the 85D, I'd say it has to be more efficient because you have more weight and the range is the same. The P85D is obviously setup for performance. It's important to remember he's talking about the AWD vehicles in general during this and not just the P85D.�
Dec 8, 2014
gpetti In the case of the 85D all indications are that his statements are true or at least they looked true based on the original range statements. The Canadian site still shows 460KM for regular S85 versus 475Km for S85D (based on 105Kph). The S85D also performs slightly better than the 85. I think Elon uses the term slightly which clearly doesn't describe the P85D.
I think that based on constant speed highway driving, all of Elon's claims are true for both of the 85D cars. The difficulty seems to be that with the 85D combined start/stop type driving minimizes the improvement enough that the EPA rating doesn't really show any improvement. With the P85D it appears that this type of stop and start driving may negate the AWD benefit to the extent that the benefit doesn't compensate for the weight etc.
As with many other P85D owners (owners to be that is) I'm happy so long as the highway numbers are accurate - i.e. as good as or better than current. At the end of the day the EPA numbers don't really matter as long as the practical range we get out of the car on the highway is the same or better than my last car. The problem as expressed in questions elsewhere is that if we are using the EPA number to define rated range - e.g. a full battery will only show 242 miles range, that is not going to be very accurate, similarly if I wanted to do 200 miles of stop and start driving it might actually be too high. Perhaps the car keeps adjusting based on driving style etc. but that could be very clunky. As someone else pointed out, the cars probably need to have new software versions downloaded once the final EPA results come out.�
Dec 8, 2014
jweinstein Tesla Model S P85D Gets Rated At 242 Miles* Of Range�
Dec 8, 2014
stopcrazypp There's some speculation that this is the EPA test method of ~90% range to account for Tesla's "default" range. The evidence is that the combined MPGe is the same 89MPGe for both P85D and previous P85, so they should have the same range given the same battery, but somehow they don't. The small difference in the 86MPGe vs 88MPGe city rating is not enough to account for the large gap between 242 miles vs 265 miles (and throw in the fact that the P85D actually has better highway efficiency).
I'll wait for something more official about the reasons for the difference before drawing too many conclusions.�
Dec 8, 2014
dennis The valid comparison is between 265 and 250, where both the 85 and the P85D are on the same 19" wheels/tires. The 242 is for 21" wheels and summer performance tires.�
Dec 8, 2014
breser Most of that started with people on the TM forums saying that. Everyone took it as gospel and ran with it. Between my reserach, further back in the thread, and Tesla's own updated numbers those people are now saying that the theory is not true. Meanwhile, lots of people are still running around repeating this theory as if it s a proven fact.
I'll admit it's still possible, but I find it highly unlikely. In my personal opinion it's a bogus theory.�
Dec 9, 2014
stopcrazypp The math doesn't work out even if you use 250 vs 265 (which is a 6% difference). 86MPGe vs 88 MPGe is only 2.3% difference. Either Tesla changed the "usable" capacity, or this has to do with the EPA test procedure (where EPA takes the average of the "default" range mode and the max range mode).�
Dec 9, 2014
breser Or they took the average of the insane and sport modes (something that we have reason to believe the EPA would require since they supposedly do so for other cars with driving modes), no other Tesla has driving modes. Or the firmware on the test cars have a larger reserve that the won't let you touch before shutting down.
There are other explanations than the 90% charge theory.
But we'll have an answer because that theory will be proven or debunked as soon as a car is delivered and we know what the range says at 100% charge.
Whoever, takes the first delivery of a P85D, please take a picture of your charge state as soon as you get the car at 100%. You'll resolve this debate in a single post.�
Dec 9, 2014
SteveG3 fwiw, Tesla may want to have three choices for the rated range that's displayed... one based on highway rating, one based on city rating, and one based on combined.
It would not only be in Tesla's interest in demonstrating the validity of their earlier statements about the dual motor improving efficiency and range, it would seem more useful to owners to be able to choose the range indication relevant to circumstances of a given trip.�
Dec 9, 2014
bonaire If you get into city/hwy/combined - what about 80*F, 40*F, 0*F temperature ranges in a 3 by 3 Hollywood Squares type of number layout?�
Dec 9, 2014
SteveG3 bonaire, I'm talking about rated miles, which is based on EPA numbers. this would offer three choices.
I think it's a separate question whether Tesla add on some new sort of estimate that pulls in all those other variables. If they do, I doubt they'd use the word "rated," in Tesla lingo rated implies EPA rated.�
Dec 9, 2014
wk057 So, found a shot of a P85D speedo finally, showing the 480kW limit. Also showed rated range. I extracted an annotated that part:
Looks like about 67% to me. 161 / 0.67 = 240.3 miles at 100% charge. (244 if it's 66%)
- - - Updated - - -
Original pic posted here: P85D sighting / test drives - Page 24
Edit: Note: I notice the rated Wh/mi line on the energy graph on the right of the original pic is slightly higher also...
�
Dec 9, 2014
breser Thanks wk057 I wanted to do this last night but couldn't find a shot that was for sure the new vehicle. I think that settles it, 244 is at 100% charge.�
Dec 9, 2014
vgrinshpun Note that according to the pictures in the OP the car was in INSANE mode. I bet that range will be more than 244 in the SPORT mode, as it is most likely is biased to efficiency more than INSANE mode.
As an example, my car in RANGE hvac mode shows about 3 miles more than when this mode is off.�
Dec 9, 2014
jpet I am wondering what happened to the NORMAL mode Elon spoke about during the announcement event. He clearly stated there would be 3 modes: NORMAL, SPORT and INSANE. I'm hoping a NORMAL mode, that is more efficient, might still pop up in the future.
There's also something else :smile:, I was told that it would become possible to switch from AWD to RWD (or even FWD). Running the car on only the 221 hp front motor might consume less energy as well (or am I mistaken assuming this)? Just noticed that on the Belgian order site, some numbers have changed. In the US, total hp is 691 (221 + 470). In Belgium, total hp is 700 (224 + 476). IMO, one of these is incorrect.�
Dec 10, 2014
xa20es I believe they use metric hp (hp(M) = 735.49875W) in Europe and mechanical (hp(I) = 745.69W) or electric (hp(E) = 746W) hp in the US.
If you take these numbers, power in kW amounts to about 515 for both.�
Dec 10, 2014
jpet Thanks for clarifying! I learned something today. :biggrin:�
Dec 10, 2014
vgrinshpun This is exactly what I am thinking going to happen as well. Elon mentioned that there will be tweaks to the D operation - the NORMAL mode will probably be coming in future software updates. I believe that range for the NORMAL mode will be the same as for non-performance 85D models. Hopefully this will help with all the unhappiness about the range issue with the P85D.�
Dec 10, 2014
Andyw2100 That would be great, and would make a lot of people very happy.
But if that is really the case (and I'm certainly hoping it is), why not do whatever it takes to be able to release the car that way and never have to go through "this" and never have to show the lower EPA numbers? It seems like this was a huge hit to take just for not being able to get something that should have been relatively simple done in time.
I understand the delay with the autopilot features. That's some pretty complicated stuff, and much of it is brand-spanking new. But one additional driving mode, that is going to be the most mellow, most efficient mode--that should have been pretty straight-forward. If it was delayed because they were trying to eke out every last bit of efficiency, release it, get the EPA numbers to be based on the current version of it, and then continue to improve it. That would have been far better than having the EPA numbers based on the other two modes.
Again, I really hope you are correct, but I have to wonder, because it just really seems that if Tesla has that planned, they wouldn't have sat on it.�
Dec 10, 2014
uselesslogin Besides my confusion over the combined MPGe being the same (unless MPGe shown on sticker is for 85D for some reason) I am also confused by the fact that if you go to this page:
Your Questions Answered | Tesla Motors
And go down to the "how far will you go?" section it says that you go 261 miles @65mph in the RWD variant. Recently they were saying 285 on the order page. So how did the Model S RWD gain 24 miles in range @65 mph? You do get that 283 miles of range @60 mph. It is like someone took the 283 miles and converted it to metric and then back to imperial and went 60 mph->100 kph->65mph. And then they rounded up to 285. At the end of the day it is obvious the P85D is still worth it, but I think Tesla needs to be a lot more careful with the claims they make on their website especially if it leads people to the wrong impression. Certainly I think people should be able to get their deposits back on the P85D because of this if it keeps them from buying. Of course I don't think that many people will cancel...�
Dec 10, 2014
SteveG3 That would be nice. Who knows, but I see the choice of the word "Normal" as consistent with the idea you are suggesting. When there's multiple driving modes the EPA here in the U.S. will rate on the Normal mode the car defaults back to (link below of an article another member posted that discusses this policy). Hopefully Tesla's choice to not go with the common "Eco", "Normal", "Sport" trio of modes in many other cars is a hint that you are on to something.
Do All Those Driving Modes Affect a Car's EPA Gas Mileage? - KickingTires�
Dec 10, 2014
ecarfan You were "told" that by whom? I doubt that is correct. Better to let the car manage the dual motor drivetrain on its own to maximize efficiency and traction. It's smart enough to figure out which wheels should be driven depending on conditions.�
Dec 10, 2014
wycolo Assuming RiverBrick's reported conversation with TM engineer is correct, it appears that the 85D will NOT be offered with differing gear ratios front to back. The possibility of extra range is being sacrificed for the increased reliability of using today's final-drive units (with same ratio) for both the front and rear. :crying:
--�
Dec 10, 2014
uselesslogin How much extra range though? There is so much we don't know about what they are doing. I assume though what they are saying that there will be 2 drive units and the gearbox will be the same. The larger and smaller one.�
Dec 10, 2014
Andyw2100 Who is RiverBrick? What conversation are you referring to? Is this a reference to something talked about in a different thread? Thanks.�
Dec 10, 2014
jpet My Tesla sales told me this over the phone a couple of weeks ago. I did not specifically ask about this but he said there would be a way to switch off AWD and switch to FWD or RWD. In case one of the drive units fails e.g., this would allow to continue driving until the time of repair.�
Dec 10, 2014
NigelM Running on the smaller front motor only (assuming that's possible) would restrict both acceleration and speed so theoretically you could get greater range. If you adopt a sedate driving style you'll get the same effect without having to turn off the rear motor. The question for most of us is do we have the willpower to drive more slowly and get better mileage? ;-)�
Dec 10, 2014
jpet Maybe Tesla could come up with a "Granny" mode
You are right that someone ordering a P85D is looking for performance and it is only logic that performance comes at the expense of reduced range.�
Dec 10, 2014
NigelM Hehe, that would make for some amusing marketing:
"This car has 4 driving modes...Granny, Normal, Sport and INSANE!!"
:-D�
Dec 10, 2014
Andyw2100
And them just wait until people start combing them. Do you really want to see "Insane Granny" mode?�
Dec 10, 2014
Cottonwood A friend of mine who test drove a P85, ordered an X, and is requesting a Granny mode after his P85 ride.�
Dec 10, 2014
yobigd20 The only reason I would want a granny mode is to limit my kW power usage , especially during acceleration, so I can actually get the rated range shown. I tend to only get like 60-70% of the rated range due to my lead foot. So if it says 250 miles I want to get 250 actual miles, not 160 miles before I reach 0.
60k miles later I still haven't learned how to get anything near 300Wh/mi, let alone below it so I can actually get like 250 miles range during road trips.
�
Dec 10, 2014
wk057 I'm not *that* bad. I have the lead foot issue around town, but, my life average is around 320 Wh/mi.�
Dec 10, 2014
ecarfan I'm not convinced. Seems to me the car is able to detect a front or rear drive unit failure and can immediately take steps to deal with that. I don't know why Tesla would need to add functionality to the UI so the driver could manually select which of the two drive units to use. If a drive unit failed, the driver may not even be able to tell right away if it is the front or the rear unit that has failed. But of course the car can tell instantly.�
Dec 10, 2014
jpet From the UI screenshots we've seen so far, this feature indeed does not seem to be available. If it's not there, it will be for good reason. The car is probably smart enough to handle a drive unit failure without user intervention.�
Dec 12, 2014
yobigd20 I would guess that from a cold stop it might be too much of a strain on the FWD smaller motor to pull a 5000lb car? If you drive around on that 24/7 maybe it prematurely wears it out. Total guessing out of my butt.�
Dec 12, 2014
breser MarcG over in the P85D tracking thread took delivery of a P85D on 19" wheels. It shows 242 miles of range, as I predicted from my research into the regulations (not sure if I posted that prediction in this thread but I did over at TM forums when asked).
�
Dec 12, 2014
RAW84 Is there a P85 and/or P85+ window sticker available for comparisons?
Edit: from what I can tell, the 85 kWh was tested with no separate test for P85
Compare Side-by-Side
The 85 gets:
89 MPGe combined
88 MPGe city
90 MPGe highway.
So the P85D is worse in the city, but better in the more important highway driving. I know this was pointed out in here before, but I just wanted to reiterate.
�
Dec 12, 2014
TexasEV The EPA sticker is misleading for charging time. It says "Charge time: 12 hours (240V)". This assumes a 30A circuit as Leaf or Volt uses. If charging time is going to be included at all on the EPA sticker, and I don't know why it should be, at least it should be specific to the charger in the car which is 40A. Not that anyone charges from 0 routinely, but if they did at 40A it would take 8.3 hours, not 12 hours.�
Dec 12, 2014
Cottonwood On top of that, the buyer of this car very intelligently got the twin charger option, and can charge at 80 Amps.�
Dec 12, 2014
breser As I mentioned before the Model S 85, P85 and P85+ are all the same car as far as the vehicle configuration is defined by the regulations. The P85D since it has a different motor configuration than any other Model S is a separate vehicle as far as the regulations are concerned. Since the P and P+ are just options, Tesla only needs to include options that more than 33% of a vehicle configuration will be delivered with.
Yeah the charge time has always been peculiar.
One thing I'd like to point out is that today the order form for the P85D updated and the 242 number has disappeared. Only the 250 number remains. Given that cars are being delivered with the 242 sticker, this certainly is interesting.�
Dec 12, 2014
RiverBrick This also makes it misleading for MPGe, since 30A charging is less efficient and leads to more kWh consumed, wall to wheels, than readily available faster charging alternatives.�
Dec 12, 2014
randompersonx It does say underneath:
*Range decreases 3% when equipped with 21-inch wheels.�
Dec 12, 2014
breser Yeah but just removing the 242 number as a listed number when that's what's on the window sticker seems, weird to me.�
Dec 12, 2014
stopcrazypp The "When fully charged, vehicle can travel about..." is also misleading. It said that also for the 2013 Leaf with 75 miles on the sticker (which is not the range when "fully charged"; range fully charged is actually 84 miles). So the sticker still doesn't tell us whether any range averaging happened for the modes.
http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/2013-Nissan-LEAF-sticker.jpg�
Dec 15, 2014
shadowinstallz interesting to see what the 85d will be....�
Dec 17, 2014
DJ Frustration By the way, can a brotha get some reputation points for starting this thread way back in November before any speculation of a reduced EPA rating for the P85D?
First Post:
Range Reduced on Dual Motor Configs?�
Feb 4, 2015
breser Green Car Reports published an article on the EPA testing now. It includes quotes from the EPA. If there was still any doubt (after the range blog) that EPA numbers for the 85D/P85D are at 100% SOC that should be settled by this article and in particular the following quote.
Tesla P85D Highlights Why EPA Range Ratings Are Inconsistent Confusing For Electric Cars�
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