Thứ Bảy, 28 tháng 1, 2017

Model S catches fire in France-8/2016 part 1

  • Aug 15, 2016
    Az_Rael
    Tesla Model S catches on fire during a test drive in France

    During a test drive in a Model S 90D, the vehicle suddenly made a loud noise and sent a visual alert on the dashboard stating that there was a problem with �charging�. The Tesla employee giving the test drive made the driver park the car on the side of the road and all three (the driver, the Tesla employee and another passenger) exited the vehicle.

    The Tesla Model S caught on fire only a moment later (pictured above), according to witnesses.

    Electrek did note that electric car fires are no more common that ICE fires, but this one is notable, since as of right now, no impact or road damage was involved.

    Will be interesting to hear the details once Tesla investigates.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    BluestarE3
    It'll be interesting to find out what the "loud noise" was that preceded the warning... some type mechanical failure or damage that may have led to an electrical short? The fact that the car alerted the occupants of a potential hazard so they could exit the vehicle beforehand is a safety feature that should not be overlooked.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    CapeOne
    The warning was apparently some sort of 'charging problem' message but that alone wouldn't necessarily prompt someone to pull over and exit the car or assume a potential fire hazard.

    It will be interesting to see what the investigation determines.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    Matias
    So, did they buy the car?
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    int32_t
    Well, this sucks.

    If anybody out there is concerned their Model S will catch fire, I'll take it. Won't even charge you a dime! :D

    I'm tempted to think the "loud noise" was the sound of a thousand amps rushing somewhere they shouldn't, turning a few thick copper conductors into oven elements and starting a fire.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    W0QR
    Yea, my thoughts too. This could be a black swan. Something we (Tesla) hadn't thought of. I saw a picture of the flames and it appeared they were forward of the aft part of the vehicle. Quite a blaze. We don't need this right now.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    Canuck
    From the article: "It is important to note that while electric vehicle fires are widely reported, there�s no evidence that there are any more frequent than gas-powered car fires."

    In fact, there is evidence that they are less frequent:

    "The nationwide driving statistics make this very clear: there are 150,000 car fires per year according to the National Fire Protection Association, and Americans drive about 3 trillion miles per year according to the Department of Transportation. That equates to 1 vehicle fire for every 20 million miles driven, compared to 1 fire in over 100 million miles for Tesla. This means you are 5 times more likely to experience a fire in a conventional gasoline car than a Tesla!

    For consumers concerned about fire risk, there should be absolutely zero doubt that it is safer to power a car with a battery than a large tank of highly flammable liquid.

    � Elon"
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    stopcrazypp
    Someone in another article suggested it may be debris like the previous fires. The shield has help tremendously in reducing the likelihood of a puncture from debris, but that doesn't mean zero.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    S4WRXTTCS
    Surprisingly it really hasn't hit the news all that hard.

    Even in this forum there is hardly much discussion, and there has been plenty of time to talk about it. The supercharger fire had a lot more activity.

    Odd, considering that a fire while moving is something pretty fearful.

    At least the car is still really considerate in giving you ample warning to pull over and get out before it burns itself to the ground.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    CuriousG
    I heard it was a fire sale.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    BluestarE3
    The buyer will be joining these forums shortly to seek advice on how to rebuild this salvage Tesla. :)
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    brkaus
    This thread reminds me of something I had long forgot. Our family car caught fire in the garage when I was much younger. Fuel line burst. We didn't have a fire extinguisher, so pushed it out of the garage quickly. It did burn the garage door a bit, but not bad. Mostly discolored the paint. The car didn't do to well though.

    After that time, our garage always had a full sized fire extinguisher. Actually, two. A CO2 one and a chemical powder one.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    mkjayakumar
    Expect the usual trolls to have field day in this thread.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    ecarfan
    That is the first Tesla fire (not from a collision) story I can recall hearing about in over two years, with the single exception of the Model S charging at a Supercharger in Norway that caught on fire (did Tesla every release an explanation of that incident?).
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    Drivin
    Funny! Fun with silly math and stats!
    The above comparison that the multi billion dollar corp rationalized is only relevant if they are comparing new car fires to the Tesla new car fires.

    The average age of a car on the road is 11 years.
    This was a new car, so it is 11 times younger.
    So you aren't 5 times safer, you are less safe on a per mile/per month basis.

    You don't hear a lot about $100k new ICE cars that are on fire due to some new tech they are promoting. (Although you will see the occasional super car have a fire, but that is a different comparison)

    We have no idea whether when they are 11 years old if Tesla's will be more or less safe than the average car on the road.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    evp
    Battery fire in France. The reddit comments are hysterical.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    Drivin
    Yes.
    There was a fault in the car.
    You don't hear a lot about it here, since in the original threads here almost every theory but a fault was put forward. It was arson, etc. etc.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    BluestarE3
  • Aug 15, 2016
    Canuck
  • Aug 15, 2016
    malcolm
    And you've added your own. Kudos.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    Yggdrasill
    They never figures out the exact fault, but they were able to determine that there was a fault in the high voltage junction box that caused the fire. (Just like we were able to deduce here on the forum, I might add.)

    When it comes to this fire, my money is on road debris. The extent and intensity of the fire reminds me of the video of the first Tesla fire, though probably a few minutes later.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    deonb
    How do you know that the average of ICE cars on the road that catch on fire isn't 2 weeks old? If you have statistics to say otherwise, please back that up. Otherwise it's meaningless to compare car age.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    NikeWings
    Do you think Tesla does anything special for test drivers that incur incidents?
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    krazineurons
    What part of Tesla bodies are inflammable? Isn't it mostly aluminium on the structure? Or it is the battery that causes all the fire reaching to temperatures eventually making the structure burn as well?
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    Yggdrasill
    The parts that don't burn are the steel bumpers, steel B-columns, and a few other parts.

    The battery is well insulated from the rest of the car using aerofoam, so it can survive a fire where the battery hasn't been involved in starting the fire. In the fire in Norway, it burned itself out pretty fast, so I don't think the battery was involved, and the tires/rims will burn, but didn't. (The rims are pretty massive chunks of aluminium, so you need a lot of heat to get them to burn.)

    [?IMG]
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    Jin Kazama
    I'm not sure it's a problem with road debris this time. They talk (in French) about a possible single cell failure (the loud noise) propagating to the other cells... It might be some kind of rare catastrophic cell failure, given the number of cells in such a car and the number of teslas on the markets I'd say it insignificant...

    In the other hand, it's a good reminder of why the other EV manufacturers decided to go with lower capacity, larger, heavier cells. I've never heard of such a problem with EVs such as the nissan leaf or the renault zoe (which sells by truckloads here) (don't tell me the cars are not comparable, they are EVs...). (I specifically remember someone deliberately punctuating a leaf battery pouch trying & failing to set it on fire (they way you put lipo batteries on fire)).
    �
  • Aug 15, 2016
    Yggdrasill
    The pack is designed such that a cell failure won't propagate.

    If it wasn't road debris, my guess would be a short in the DC/DC converter. A short could make the main contactors break the current, which is known to be described as a pop or bang by those who experience it. And a fault there could engulf the front of the car in flames fairly quickly.
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    WannabeOwner
    Comment from Reddit:

    "go long on fire extinguishers and short tesla" :cool:
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    3Victoria
  • Aug 16, 2016
    Cobbler
    The message that was shown 'charging error' while driving should provide some diagnostic feedback for Tesla to determine the area where the cause is.
    Just wondering: doesn't the car immediately upload diagnostic alarms over the GPRS network to Tesla?
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    SwedishAdvocate
    It happens.

    http://jalopnik.com/dick-van-dykes-jag-burns-on-an-la-freeway-but-hes-okay-1169145256



    And it probably happens a lot. But since it's not a Tesla or owned by Dick van Dyke, it's not considered news. There may also be an element of self-censorship � who wants to upset a really big source of advertisement money/bite the hand that feeds you the most?
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    Yggdrasill
    If it had been a fossil car that had caught fire and not a Tesla, there might have been a small note in the local newspaper like "A car caught fire at 1 pm on road X, firefighters arrived quickly and at 3 pm the road was reopened. No one was harmed." I've seen that hundreds of times.

    A couple of examples in Norwegian from the last 24 hours:

    Rykket ut til bilbrann p� Tunejordet
    Bilbrann p� E18 i Lillesand
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    mkjayakumar
    Please don't feed the vultures. To maintain healthy discussions around the cause and the impact of this incident, we need to stay away and ignore a few folks. Otherwise this will disintegrate into yet another, Tesla is making killing machines and Eloon is a conman .
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    deonb
    I miss the heavy handed mods.
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    scaesare
    I'm not sure this is true. The cells are individually fused so an overloaded cell will be protected to avoid runaway, and the pack has features to help prevent runaway from occurring.. or doing so too quickly.

    But I don't know of anything that would prevent a defective (or otherwise compromised) cell that ended up in flames from spreading to the adjacent cells in the module. They are all packed together, and once you get 444 cells on one module burning, the others will go as well, albeit the dividers in the pack may slow that avalanche some.

    Tesla does have a patent for using an intumescent coating on individual that would act as a fire retardant, but it appears to not be in use within the current packs (or at least the earlier ones torn down and examined).

    This would be interesting. The one known pack puncture actually did so on the front face of the pack (I.e. on the side of the "hump" at the front of the pack), and not through the ballistic armor bottom plate. Subsequently cars are built with protection to avoid that same accident... similar to the titanium retrofit made available to existing cars.

    The other mechanically-induced fires have been accidents severe enough to compromise the integrity of the pack.. .in one case actually ripping the car in half.

    If this was a case of debris, I'd be interested in understanding how/where it would have managed to puncture the pack.

    I suspect electrical fault is more likely... contactor failure within the pack, or HVJB short of some sort, as apparently was the case with the Norwegian car fire...
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    Yggdrasill
    My understanding is that a single cell failure doesn't generate sufficient heat to set off the adjacent cells. I'm sure Tesla has done all the necessary calculations and testing to ensure this is the case. You need several cells to go off at the same time, or that the pack is deformed or punctured.

    Also, it's fairly unlikely that a fire inside an intact pack module would have sufficient intensity to affect the rest of the car in any appreciable way very fast. It would take a lot of time. Now, maybe the picture in the article was taken after 30-60 minutes, but I doubt it.

    HVJB can be ruled out, as well as the rear DU and charger. This is all at the rear of the car and the fire was at the front of the car.

    If we're not talking about debris, but an electrical fault, the likely culprits are the front DU, DC/DC converter, and 12V system. All these aren't contained in the fire-resistant metal box that is the battery pack, and they are at the front of the car.
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    habanero69
    My question would be, how many, if any, unattended fires have there been with Tesla cars. In other words, sitting in a garage on OR off the charger, how many fires have been reported?

    That said, what do owners do in their garages above and beyond what they would do with ICE vehicles stored? I currently have a CO monitor and a batt operated smoke detector in my garage. Whether or not I will hear it if it goes off in my bedroom half way across the house is another question. Is there a reasonably priced IOT device that could be deployed in the garage for such monitoring purposes? That would assume, I guess, no loss of power/internet for that to really be effective... Suggestions? :confused:

    M
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    ecarfan
    Get a Nest smoke detector. It will alert you via the phone app. Keep you phone by your bed with the volume turned up enough to wake you up.
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    Yggdrasill
    One. The fire in Norway. There have also been some near accidents, with incorrectly fitted adapters to the UMC, and some faulty wiring in peoples homes, used for charging. But only one actual fire.

    I personally have five optical smoke detectors that are linked in my home. If one goes off, they all go off. I don't have one in my garage, though. Just in two adjacent rooms. (In my experience, fire detectors don't like freezing temperatures, and in the middle of winter, the temperature will likely be freezing inside the garage.)
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    Yggdrasill
    No wait, there was another actual fire in Sweden. But I don't think the car was to blame.
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    habanero69
    I'm in a condo with no access to attic or currently wired smoke detectors between one another. Currently I have one Nest in the hallway next to Master BR. I have another non-Nest A/C power w/backup batt that has CO and fire w/voice in the main living area. The garage has standalone CO and Fire both battery only. I'd like something like the Nest in the garage that might do a better job than the cheap battery models I have there now. My concern is that in the garage if there is a fire, there may be no power/internet too; a so called smart device would prove useless. Don't get me wrong, I'm not overly paranoid that I will have an event/fire, but the first thing my neighbor said when I told them I was getting a Tesla was, "OH, you mean one of those EV cars that starts fires and burns down the house?" :mad: (BTW, they live above my garage :cool: )
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    WannabeOwner
    Me too

    Mine are wired, but I think it is possible to get wireless ones that talk / link to each other. I guess? that if you had enough of them the distance between each would be close enough to "link". You might also want a sensor in the garage that detects heat rather than smoke (we have one like that in the boiler room and in the kitchen) in case the garage doors are open and smoke from the fire doesn't trigger a smoke-detector.
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    Yggdrasill
    Mine are battery only. There's a bit of work replacing the batteries each year (three AA and one 9V per detector) but they do the job. I've tested them with a smoke match (or whatever you call them), and they make *a lot* of noise.
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    scaesare
    Good point about the HVJB, that's actually in the passenger compartment... bad example on my part.

    I'm still not sure I've seen anything that says a single cell failure can't runaway. I think the pack safety designs reduce the likliehood, but I'd not conclude it can't happen.
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    bxr140
    Come on people, let's keep it 100 here.

    Just because you don't like the guy doesn't mean his point about about the lack of timescale in Elon's quote is wrong. It doesn't invalidate Elon's point, it just adds a little perspective.
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    Takumi
    I think it's because the Lambo made a more sensationalist headline:
    Heroes Rescue Driver from Lamborghini Huracan Moments Before it is Consumed by Fire - GTspirit
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    int32_t
    If you mean it's a situation Tesla didn't forsee during the design phase ... not a chance. How many billions of fire-free kilometres have been driven already? And how perfect is the rest of the car? I'd say it's very unlikely that something went overlooked. Much more likely to be a loose something-or-other or a strange one-off manufacturing error.

    But then, some things still get hot even after being designed, tested, and sold.
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    deonb
    Well, then same question back to you - where is your statistics to back up that vehicle fires are related to vehicle age?

    The highest risk I had from a fire wasn't on my older vehicles, it was my brand new 2015 GMC Denali, that spent a week in the shop twice in its first 6 months to replace the entire fuel system, because of a fuel leak. Twice.

    This is actually a known service bulletin from GMC on that model year but you have to ask for it, and you have to know how to look for the fuel leak. So how many of these are driving around leaking fuel all over, I'm not sure.

    Point is, manufacturer design defects also cause issues. I don't have any statistics to know what is the percentage of issues caused by that, vs. wear or maintenance issues down the line. Do you?
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    bxr140
    That's the point--there haven't been any represented either way. It's drawing a false positive conclusion to assume there's no correlation, and in fact logic suggests there's a significant time component one way or the other.

    Statistically/trending speaking, and like most products, there are new car failures and there are old car failures. The former is design/workmanship/process/vendor related. The later is wear/tear/maintenance related. Both have a VERY strong correlation to time, and no doubt there are many cases of vehicle fire in both. The question is which one is more likely.
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    KZKZ
    At least everyone was able to get out.

    I wonder what would happen if it was a fire in Model X and the power went out. Getting out of the third row seats would be extremely difficult as would opening the FWD.
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    deonb
    It doesn't have the escape handle like we do in the S?
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    Jlwine
    Yeah, garages general do not like smoke detectors because rapid swings in temperature can cause condensation and dust too can cause false alarm issues.
    I have always had a hard wired heat detector in my garage. That is connected to my central alarm system. A heat detector is of course primarily designed to save your life in the event of a fire, not respond quickly enough to save property, at least not in the immediate vicinity of the fire.
    �
  • Aug 16, 2016
    Blue heaven
    Since Elon released the above information back in 2013 the ratio has now changed to six model S fires covering close to 3 billion miles of driving, the average age of a model S may be younger than the average age of the majority of the ICE driving fleet but with odds 25 times in favour of a model S I'll stick with the EV.
    �
  • Aug 17, 2016
    KZKZ
    Unless you train your passengers how to use it in case of an emergency, I doubt anyone would figure it out during the panic of a car fire.

    As for the third row passengers, they're pretty much stuck in that third row.
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    deonb
    Why would you not train your passengers to do this? This is the first thing I do when I ask someone to sit in the rear seats.
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    Caligula
    Human nature. Why would you think the average person would bother to do this when they are so blas� about more pressing safety issues? That said, why didn't the delivery specialist go over this when I took delivery of my vehicle? He made sure to tell me how to close the frunk so it wouldnt dent, and how to use the slacker app...
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    DFibRL8R
    Good point. I have shown my kids how to before but probably need to do a periodic refresher! I agree that it is not enough for the just driver to know how to do this since the driver may be incapacitated in an accident.
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    Cobbler
    A very wild assumption since this concerned a new MS: I read on elektro.co about newer electronics in the drivetrain/battery to be prepared for 100kwh and higher battery pack in recent P90D, hence the better performance of these cars.
    New components (capacitor?) in the electronics that failed and caused the fire?
    Again, pure wild assumption
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    green1
    There was also a fire in a garage in Toronto Canada, I never did hear any form of conclusion on it. At the time there was a lot of speculation that it might not have even been Tesla related despite all the media. (it was a RWD vehicle, and all the damage was right up near the front end, and the ?lexus? parked beside it looked to have at least as much (or more) damage.

    Basically though, Tesla fires get media attention because it's new and exciting. People are afraid of "different" and will always blow the risks way out of proportion. This isn't even a case of vehicle specific risk either. More people die in swimming pools than of shark attacks, but many people are more worried about the later than the former. We could also talk about the whole "terrorism" thing and how many people have died that way vs any number of other causes of death (and the resultant allocation of government resources)

    As for vehicle fires themselves and ICE vs EV. We do know that fire risk goes up with age and with lack of maintenance, we also know the current numbers are something like 5 times less likely in an EV. When you combine the two, I bet you'd find that over the long run the EVs end up only 2-3 times less likely to burn than an ICE vehicle. but those are still odds I'll happily be on the right side of.

    That said, it's inevitable. Moving a large heavy vehicle long distances takes a lot of energy, being able to accelerate in a reasonable amount of time, or charge in a reasonable amount of time, both require the ability to transfer large amounts of energy quickly, There is no possible way to have those abilities without some risk. (Despite various press releases to the contrary)

    Just be glad we're not talking HFCV... just wait until one of those levels a city block, then we can talk about how safe various technologies are.
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    KZKZ
    Sounds like a good question to ask Tesla sales people who don't train shoppers before a test drive.

    Maybe the center screen should play a short safety video each time you start the car with a flight attendant explaining the escape route procedures.
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    KZKZ
    What makes Tesla's more fire prone than other EVs on the market?

    Why don't other EVs have these fire problems?
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    Drivin
    I really doubt "it happens a lot" that brand new cars go on fire as they are being test driven.

    If it did, car salespeople would be demanding hazard pay or they would be wearing flame resistant clothing.

    Lastly, there is no evidence that this is a brand new Jag that he just drove off the lot, so the comparison is not relevant.
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    Drivin
    Seriously?
    Tesla is comparing their performance with the rest of the cars on the road.
    The average car on the road is 11 years old.
    This car wasn't even sold - it was being test driven.
    If you honestly believe that is a valid comparison and you believe that there is no correlation between the age of a car and the reliability of a car, then I have no more responses for you.

    Besides, if the average car fire on a new ICE happened when the car was 2 weeks old, people probably wouldn't buy cars and that would be all over the news: "Don't take a test drive in that new Ford, GM, Toyota, without wearing flame resistant clothing".
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    Yggdrasill
    Well, to start off, the Model S definitely isn't the worst when it comes to fires. For instance, the Renault Kangoos with NiCad batteries have regularly been going up in flames for years. Probably something like 80% of the BEV fires here in Norway have been the Kangoos.

    Now, when it comes to modern li-ion BEVs, the Model S ranks pretty high on the number of fires. There are three important reasons for this. One, the Model S is the second most sold BEV in the world. With more cars on the road, there will be more fires. Two, Tesla has placed the battery at the bottom of the car, for best utilization of the space, and a low center of gravity. The BMW i3 is the only other BEV with this today. With a more exposed pack, damage is more likely. Tree, Tesla uses the most energy dense batteries on the market, NCA. This is choice that's not without compromises - the batteries are more prone to fire than the chosen battery tech of the other car companies. (This has most significance in the event of damage to the battery pack.)

    There's also some other smaller reasons why the Model S is more likely to catch fire. The Model S is the only BEV that can output 500 kW and charge at 130 kW. More power means more heat, more heat mens greater risk of fire. Tesla is also really trying to push the limits when it comes to compactness of the drivetrain. Less room means greater risk of fire.

    Now, the Model S definitely isn't the only li-ion BEV that's caught fire. Here's an i-MiEV after it was hit by a train:

    [?IMG]
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    Jeff N
    The number one selling BEV is the Nissan LEAF with nearly twice as many cars sold than the Model S (228,000 vs 129,000 as of June 2016). The LEAF has its battery pack under the car but has been involved in almost no fires.
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    techmaven
    Who says they don't?

    BMW i3 fire in Poland:


    Nissan Leaf fire:


    Search Nissan Leaf fire and there are a bunch.

    Simply, Tesla news is big news. Other cars, not so much.
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    S'toon
    I know of the Toronto story because a troll on CBC posted it as "proof" that Teslas spontaneously catch on fire. Nowhere did it say that the Tesla was the cause of the fire.
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    deonb
    Do you have proof that says this, or are you just going by gut feel?
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    KZKZ
    I couldn't find one Nissan Leaf that burned during a test drive. Can you please post the link? If this is such a common issue, it should be easy to find.

    I couldn't find any Chevy Volt fires, other than the one used in crash testing. You would think an ICE + EV would be even more likely to have fires, but so far the Volt seems to be less fire prone than the Model-S despite having sold more than the Model S.
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    stopcrazypp
    I suspect there are plenty of Leaf fires that have happened, they just don't go reported. So far I am certain that every single Tesla fire had made headlines, but not so for other EVs. If I remember correctly two were from high speed accidents (a Leaf seems less likely to be involved in such crashes given the lack of sportiness).

    Also, two of the Tesla fires are from debris puncture and the ride height of the vehicle has a lot to do with that (Tesla issued a ride height update to address this as well as a new shield). Before the update I believe ground clearance was 5.2 inches (and 6 inches after). Leaf is 6.3 inches. Tesla's battery is not only under the car, but also swappable (which is unique other than the Better Place cars).
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    Grendal
    In general, I am not seeing this as anything other than what happens to all cars both ICE and EV. You are storing lots of energy in both and invariably something can happen to cause that energy to escape creating a fire. Some thought EVs would be immune and we are discovering that they are not. The main difference is that EVs allow enough time for the occupants to exit the vehicle before the fire becomes deadly. ICE's are well known to immolate very quickly, without enough warning and occupants are more likely killed as a result.
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    Jeff N
    Yes, the LEAF rides a little higher and drivers are apt to go slower.

    As of this November, 2015 article there was apparently only one suspicious Nissan LEAF fire widely known (the one in Texas that @techmaven embedded above):

    Nissan Leaf car fires

    How is that relevant?

    I'm not claiming that Tesla cars are an unusual fire hazard. I haven't seen evidence for that.
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    PRJIM
    how do you know that the fires are caused by the HV battery? Could have started from the lv battery systems. Most of the MS fires that we have seen have started from the HV battery pack.
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    CatB
    Wasn't that the fire that was caused by faulty wiring in the garage - and then Tesla released a software update to reduce amperage when it detects power fluctuations that indicate there might be danger? Iow, Tesla didn't cause it, wasn't responsible for it, but fixed it anyway.
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    2virgule5
    One would need to compare fire incidents to the number of a given car on the road weighted by their age and miles driven to make a valid conclusion on this, something that regulators and car safety agencies in many countries are actually doing. It is certainly impressive to watch but no more than the few cars or trucks burning on the side of the road that I see in a single year (I do have a long commute).

    Clearly, some are well known in TMC forums - including this thread - to stir up any possible negative news for Tesla and generate as many FUDs as possible, 'cause their agenda is to bring the share price down. Therefore it's unlikely that the best laid out argument will have any impact :rolleyes:
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    stopcrazypp
    I didn't even know that fire happened that the one was not reported on national news as far as I can tell.

    Googling, I found another Leaf fire that was later found to be from the external EVSE:
    Feds Probe 2013 Nissan Leaf Fire Traced to Charger | Edmunds.com

    The swappable point is a proxy to saying that the pack must be exposed to the outside and can't be behind a structural member or some other external sheet metal covering it up. That makes far more likely to be the point of first contact during a debris hit.
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    Az_Rael
    There was a Chevy Volt fire that was posted to the GM-Volt forums. The guy was rear-ended but the car was drivable, so he drove it home. The car later caught fire in his garage several hours after being parked. GM took possession of the totaled car for an investigation and determined the 12V battery (in the rear hatch) had been damaged in the crash, then sparked at some point and caught the cargo floor carpet on fire. There was then a recall issued to replace the cargo floor carpets with less flammable ones, as I recall.

    Edit, my memory was incorrect, the fire happened shortly after the accident. Old School Battery Tech Causes Chevrolet Volt Fire
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    efusco
    Like "during a test drive" is relevant? Did you check for Nissan Leafs that caught fire on a Monday? Or on the same stretch of road? These incidence are all very rare, I think we're up to a total of 2 Tesla's that have unexplained spontaneous fire issues--the one in Norway was it, and this most recent one. 3 others all involved collisions and 2 of those were to the underbody by road debris and a fix was found in a few weeks and there have been no recurrences.

    So, your premise is flawed, your bias is naked and exposed and you have no data to support your contention.
    �
  • Aug 18, 2016
    2virgule5
  • Aug 18, 2016
    mkjayakumar
    Some folks go to a great extent to throw FUD on Tesla.

    Otherwise why would KZKZ would mention 'fire on a test drive' ?

    While we are at it, why don't we throw an additional detail, 'fire on a test drive on a Monday'. Tesla loses hands down in that scenario.
    �
  • Aug 19, 2016
    CuriousG
    On top of that person limits what can be seen in their profile + relatively new user = most likely a shill.
    �
  • Aug 19, 2016
    NeverFollow
    Don't this electric fire has anything to do with the fact that in France about 75% of the electricity is produced from radio active nuclear plants?
    �
  • Aug 19, 2016
    2virgule5
    Yes, blame it on the French :D
    �
  • Aug 19, 2016
    efusco
    That part's probably true! ;-)
    �
  • Aug 19, 2016
    malcolm
    Hang on, where are we up to?

    Stats for a fire in a Tesla S during a test drive on a Monday involving the French.

    Ooo I'm calling Renault out on this one. Definitely a conspiracy. Or conspiration as they say in France.
    �
  • Aug 19, 2016
    mkjayakumar
    I will just leave this screen shot of one earlier my posts here, as a Friday humor :)



    Untitled.png
    �
  • Aug 19, 2016
    2virgule5
    I'd know, I was born there ;-)
    �
  • Aug 22, 2016
    hiroshiy
    Not trying to nitpick, I just wanted to check. Was this actually a VW e-Up fire?
    http://touch.moss-avis.no/nyheter/rade/jernbaneverket/christopher-lurte-doden-igjen/s/5-67-193647
    �
  • Aug 22, 2016
    jelloslug
    You get more residual radiation from coal ash than from a nuclear power plant.
    �
  • Aug 22, 2016
    jelloslug
    The Leaf has the battery on the bottom also.
    �
  • Aug 26, 2016
    Ciaopec
  • Sep 9, 2016
    Tam
    Bad electrical connection blamed for Tesla Model S fire in France

    The article seems to blame on the danger of employing human workers' inconsistency in manual work as opposed to reliable repetitive robotic consistency:

    �the fire was caused by a bolted electrical connection that had been improperly tightened.

    Usually, these electrical connections are installed by a robot, but for this car this connection was installed manually."
    �
  • Sep 9, 2016
    Yggdrasill
  • Sep 9, 2016
    Yggdrasill
    Probably something relating to the front DU.

    I know Elon has said that the Model S doesn't really have a front firewall. Anyone know if this is different on the D's?
    �
  • Sep 9, 2016
    Tam
    I would imagine there would be much more fire from 7,000 cell-battery-pack than from a Drive Unit.

    If a Drive Unit is overheated, its insulation materials may burn but I am not sure there's enough rubber to create a big fire.

    It's unlikely that a Drive Unit would start a fire because it's thermo-regulated so it would be shutdown when a certain high temperature is reached.
    �
  • Sep 9, 2016
    Yggdrasill
    I believe the drive unit temperature sensors are at the rotor, stator and the inverter. A hotspot at a connection point wouldn't necessarily be detected very fast. Enough time could easily pass to allow for a fire to start.

    I don't think the battery pack caught fire, given that there was no structural damage. The pack has quite good fire insulation.
    �
  • Sep 9, 2016
    Yggdrasill
  • Sep 9, 2016
    Tam
    Very good detective work,Yggdrasill. I assumed that it's a battery fire. But you now just gave me another perspective that it could start from the front Drive Unit.
    �
  • Sep 10, 2016
    Az_Rael

    I wonder if they will do an inspection on any other cars that were manually tightened vs machine tightened. (Assuming that car wasn't a one-off)
    �
  • Sep 10, 2016
    Modeler
    That's just so misleading. For gas cars, it's mostly the old clunkers that catch fire. The Tesla fleet, on the other hand, is probably no more than 3 years old on average.
    �
  • Sep 10, 2016
    mkjayakumar
    This is the one incident in which the fire happened outside of an accident. All other incidents have been around some accident or other. If you use that criteria then gas cars are incendiary devices aka fire bombs.
    �
  • Sep 10, 2016
    Canuck
    Right, no new ICE cars catch fire:

    Mercedes, a week off the dealer's lot, catches fire and explodes on I-205 (video)

    BMW burst into flames while sitting in St-Leonard driveway

    Honda City Catches Fire 10 Mins After Owner Left It. Thankfully, He Is Safe.

    Brand new Honda City mysteriously catches fire minutes after owner parks it

    Fire is a fact of life whether it be gas, batteries, an old cabin or a brand new home. The issue to me isn't the very low chance my ICE vehicle or Tesla will catch on fire, but the chance my family, and me, will walk away unharmed.

    What do you think those odds are? Tesla vs. a brand new ICE? Oh right, no Tesla has burned up and killed anyone. Sorry to say we can't say the same for new ICE vehicles.

    NFPA report - Vehicle fire trends and patterns
    �
  • Sep 10, 2016
    jelloslug
    There are new gas cars that catch on fire all the time. You just don't hear about it.
    �
  • Sep 10, 2016
    ggr
    The NFPA report you mention shows that the peak "catching fire" time for cars is at about 6 years old. They claim that the risk increases but the number of miles driven decreases faster after that. But there are certainly a large number of new car fires too.
    �
  • Sep 11, 2016
    dpeilow
    The story, assuming the translation is accurate, seems to imply it was a manual build/repair "so that's ok then".

    No it isn't. If these connections are not being torqued up to spec then it's a training or personnel issue, but that is no excuse for a catastrophic fire.

    At some point in their lives many of our cars will have to have high power connections changed and I'd hate to think people aren't following procedure.
    �
  • Sep 11, 2016
    Yggdrasill
    It's not ok, but it will happen. It's always happened, and it will continue to happen.

    It's like a fault my boss recently experienced. She had just picked up the car (BMW X3) from the BMW dealership after some repairs and drove 30 minutes to work. As she was pulling into the parking lot at work, the driveshaft came lose and smashed the oil pan. So, no power, road covered in oil, no oil in the engine. At the dealership, they'd forgotten to tighten the screws...

    If it had happened at 65 mph, a serious accident could have occured. And if she'd tried to start up the engine again, it probably would have seized, and the car would probably have been totaled. All because an employee at the BMW dealership didn't follow procedure.
    �
  • Sep 11, 2016
    EarlyAdopter
    Cars destined for Europe get built in Fremont, CA through a highly automated assembly line, then disassembled, shipped to Europe as parts, and then re-assembled in Tilburg, Netherlands through a less automated, more manual line. All because of bone-headed EU tariffs.

    The problem experienced by this car in France could be endemic of a problem in this process, not how Tesla builds cars in Fremont.
    �
    • Người đăng: vào lúc

    Không có nhận xét nào:

    Đăng nhận xét

    Đăng ký: Đăng Nhận xét (Atom)