Nov 3, 2013
sub ok, I thought this decision would be easier once I had the wife on board, which she finally is. I think once she said ok it became real to me and now I'm struggling with pulling the trigger. It has nothing to do with the car or the company, i'm a shareholder and a believer, it's how to justify the purchase price.
Here is our situation. My wife travels for work so she will be doing 1000+ miles per month and gets reimbursed for that mileage. Adding our gas usage, which we have looked at for the past 6 months, the car pencils out to costing us less than what we pay in just gas right now and most likely will save us hundreds vs current expenses monthly. I would be financing 75%, I do not want to use up more of my cash than that and with loans at ~3% I feel I can make more with my cash than that. So, financing appx 75k with above numbers we come pretty close to car costing us nothing on a monthly basis. Down payment is coming courtesy of TSLA also, beautiful.
We have been crunching the numbers and debating this purchase since our first test drive 6 months ago. Our big sticking point is we don't finance things anymore, we have paid cash for all our cars for the last 5 years. I don't even have a credit card in my name. I've tried to justify it looking at it as a "net worth" issue, meaning as long as the car has more value than what it's currently worth and I can sell it at anytime than it won't stress me out.
I posted a while back asking for help on how to convince my wife to get on board, a 2nd test drive took care of that. Our current traveling car is a money pit, sitting in the garage right now needing repairs that I don't want to make after already spending 3k+ in the last 3 months trying to keep it on the road. Our backup plan is to buy a 3-5 year old Ice car and drive that until we can justify the Tesla. Our current vehicles have a total value of about 10k together. We recently paid cash for an 8kw solar system for our house so we would have completely free driving. No doubt we would keep the car for a decade, that is how we are. We are not the type that have to have the latest and greatest every year, my current vehicle is a 1994.
Let me hear your thoughts.�
Nov 3, 2013
cantdecide Think of it not as a 95k car but a 65k car with a 30k battery (Which you can consider as a fuel prepayment)... Does that help?�
Nov 3, 2013
brandonmbeard I was able to justify the 40kWh when it was announced. By the time I got to take a test drive and place a reservation the 40kWh was gone and the 60kWh was the min. I almost had that justified, then I realized I wouldn't be happy unless I have 85kWh. End the end I had to justify $100K. I basically came the conclusion that buying a Tesla Model S is like buying a $50-$60K BMW, knowing that I would have spent that on a BMW it became easy. Plus nearly free $$$ financing made it really easy.�
Nov 3, 2013
bareyb 1. I hadn't had a new car in over ten years
2. It's a good cause
3. If I keep it ten years it would be like I bought two $50k cars in that time and would be more reasonable.
4. I get to have a much nicer car that I would ever have bought for myself had it not been electric. Win-win!
5. I no longer have to invest in the corrupt big oil money machine
6. I never have to go to Oil Changers or the Gas Station again
7. it's the nicest car I've ever driven.
How's that for a start?
�
Nov 3, 2013
ToddRLockwood When looking at the total cost of ownership of a Model S vs. a similar gas powered car, you really have to take fuel & maintenance costs into account. Even if the gas powered car costs $25K less than the Model S when new, the Model S will still come out ahead eventually. The Tesla's fuel cost per mile is roughly one-fifth as much as a 20MPG sedan that requires premium gasoline. But another huge difference will come in the form of repair costs, especially after the warranty has expired. The Model S drivetrain has six moving parts, compared with hundreds on a typical gas powered car. There's a lot less to break. As someone who's driven an Audi 40,000 miles beyond its warranty, I speak from experience.�
Nov 3, 2013
Vger All of this! ^^^
Plus we already owned a Roadster and had had lots of contact with Tesla from the earliest days, and believed that this would be the game-changer that it is now becoming!�
Nov 3, 2013
Doug_G There is no justification. Life is short.�
Nov 3, 2013
evme If your saying that the monthly costs cover themselves in your case. Then why not just go for the Tesla financing? Then you have 3 years to decide.
Also, why wouldn't you have a credit card to your name? credit cards are more than just financing, they offer convenience, rebates and protections.�
Nov 3, 2013
lolachampcar I drove the car.�
Nov 3, 2013
wormhole There is no justification other than you want it.�
Nov 3, 2013
Denarius Why drive anything else when you can drive the tesla virtually free? Pull the trigger!�
Nov 3, 2013
Michael2000 This must be "new math".:smile:
I've crunched the numbers, and even though there are gas savings, it doesn't make up for the extra depreciation of a more expensive car. It is in the same ballpark in costs per mile as other luxury cars.
Michael�
Nov 3, 2013
sub All good points that I have already considered, thanks everyone. Earlier on in life I had no problem financing things and being in debt but as time went on I started looking at things as "want" or "need". It's almost entertaining to me to drive around junky cars, I'm just into the "show" anymore. However, I want to get off gas/oil and we need a new car and the Tesla is the only car that will do what I want. The 60 is out of the question because I need all the range we can get. I do feel that I don't go some places because I don't want to add in the cost of the gas to whatever it is I want to go do.
As far as the credit card issue, I can see the advantage of using it to purchase things for protection, but I don't like using them at all. We don't live paycheck to paycheck so I don't need it for "emergencies" either.
The one last issue I didn't mention is I would be selling a small portion of my TSLA shares to make the down payment, hurts to do that.�
Nov 3, 2013
Jeeps17 +1000 to this.
I also agree with all the other responses :wink:�
Nov 3, 2013
Denarius OP stated
"My wife travels for work so she will be doing 1000+ miles per month and gets reimbursed for that mileage. Adding our gas usage, which we have looked at for the past 6 months, the car pencils out to costing us less than what we pay in just gas right now and most likely will save us hundreds vs current expenses monthly."
I don't see how that is "new math"�
Nov 3, 2013
leonari Gotta live today. Life is short and a car lime the Model S is pure emotion. Rare that you get some kind of emotional high (for a long time) from any other thing you spend money on. Only a very nice house comes to mind�
Nov 3, 2013
sub The "life is short" argument is the best one so far. I told my wife this exact same thing a few weeks ago when she was on a business trip, exhausted, that she needed a reward and something enjoyable that would also make her traveling easier. It's a big reason I want the car, I want her driving it and I want to feel she is safe. I'm not sure she will make it home in our current car, we have resorted to renting for her business trips.�
Nov 3, 2013
MikeC There's your justification. Also, as a shareholder you technically getting a cut of that 95k you dish out. Just wait until after 11/5 to sell, hopefully you'll need to part with fewer shares.�
Nov 3, 2013
Shumdit I agree that it can be hard to make the numbers work, but there have been some really good points made. Also, I am a believer in investing in products you use/believe in. Since you are already an investor it seems like being the the other sort of investor would be a easy jump (and a much more satisfying one!)�
Nov 3, 2013
gene Absolutely everything everyone says already
PLUS: I was tired of a military killing all over the world in the name of oil, I was tired of the Amazonian tribes dying of cancers and birthing defects due to poisoned rivers by Occidental petroleum, and mostly, after a year taking care of my wife in a cancer/leukemia ward I was determined to no longer be part of the problem but to be part of the solution.
This is likely our only opportunity to support change like this.�
Nov 3, 2013
sub Thanks Everyone. I will throw the "life is short" at my wife and see her reaction lol. Definitely not letting go of shares before the 5th, if the stock tanks (i'm confident it won't) I will hold off a little while longer. Plan is to pick up a P85 loaner before the end of the year so I can take advantage of the tax break this year, and it's the only way I will get a P85.�
Nov 3, 2013
SFOTurtle It might be sacrilege on this forum, but if you were straining at the cost, the S85 is plenty of car in every way, and would save you some cash. Does your wife really need the extra performance of the P85 to justify the extra expense? That would be the first place to think about it you really need to justify the decision.�
Nov 3, 2013
simplesolar YOLO! (you only live once)�
Nov 3, 2013
NuclearPowered Why is this even a debate? You said it yourself that you will get a better car for less money. Whats stopping you? Even if it is financed, it's saving money every month. Win win win...�
Nov 3, 2013
rcc Honestly, if $$ is an issue, I'd think really hard about saving $10K and dropping to the S85. I've driven both the P85 and S85. Unless you're really in love with violent acceleration, the S85 has plenty of power. In my experience, the instant torque and lack of gear-shifting means the S85 has usable, real-world power equivalent or better than Corvette's, Porsches and Ferrari's.�
Nov 3, 2013
sp4rk Just do it!
There's a reason for the Tesla GRIN!
Have yet to meet an owner that would part with their Model S. (well, maybe for another one!)
And I met 300 of them at Teslive. Never in my life met a group of enthusiasts more into a car brand than this one. And I drove a lot of "campy" cars ...�
Nov 3, 2013
Zextraterrestrial yes, and driving a Tesla in this life is really nice�
Nov 3, 2013
SwedishAdvocate One more way to perhaps get the cost down somewhat more, might be to choose the standard coil suspension. And since you'll be keeping the car for a long time, and as I understand it, the standard coil suspension reduces complexity. And also, and again, as I understand it, steel (or whatever the coils consist of) ages better than the rubber in the active air rubber bellows.�
Nov 3, 2013
liuping I was able to justify a S85 based on life's short (hey, I'm 48 and never owned a sports car), it incredibly fun to drive, and eco friendly to boot.
I was not able to justify the $10k jump to P85, or even some of the other extras like pano roof for $2500, or the 21" wheel for $4500 (+ yearly new tires).
As for as financing, Alliant still has 72 month financing at 1.49% for up to 95%. Any decent investment will return more than that, effectively lowering the costs further.�
Nov 3, 2013
evme Well you can think of it as leasing
As I mentioned, credit cards are more than just living pay check to pay check. That is what people do who don't understand how to manage their money. Credit cards have benefits for those that don't live paycheck to paycheck. Essentially you pay off the balance every single month on time. If your the forgetful type you can prepay or set it to auto pay whichever suites you. Benefits range from cash back on purchases to perks. For example, I have a Marriott card that gets me Marriott platinum and I get free room upgrades, free breakfast and free lounge access, free internet, free calls and early/late checkout. And I get this without paying any extra penny on purchases. Other cards give me other benefits such as extending warranties and increased cash back on purchases.
So while there are people using credit card to make purchases they can't afford, that doesn't speak for everyone. You just pay them off every month on time. The credit cards make their money on the merchant fees, not from you. (Though some of the credit cards end up losing money on me as well as I only use them when it is favorable to me and probably not them).
Of course if you have some personal reason you don't use them that is different and understandable.�
Nov 3, 2013
sub One way i'm justifying trying to buy the car now is if I can do it before the end of the year I can get the tax rebate back sooner. Most of the loaners are Performance, and the discount is big enough that it isn't much more than ordering a new non performance 85. I figure that little extra will make owning the car for 7-10 years easier, and will make resale easier if that were to ever be needed. The last test drive we did 2 weeks ago they were nice enough to pull the standard model out of the showroom so we could drive it back to back with a performance. Of course the standard is awesome and would be more than enough if that is what it came down to, but we can swing the P85 loaner no problem.
I would prefer coil suspension, and I have told the person I'm working with at Tesla I would prefer it, but it's more about the entire package + price. There are a few exterior colors I would be happy with, and 2 of the 3 interior. The only must have options are tech and panoramic roof. Most of the loaners come well optioned, but they are still a good deal and it's nice to get close to a used car price yet the car is still considered new with warranty.
I have thought about looking at the car as a lease, that does help. Really the sticking point is just knowing I have the debt even though I know it's not really costing me anything more than what I'm paying now for transportation (other than the down payment). I told my wife "you only live once" since my last post and she just laughed and shook her head, said she was coming to terms with driving a junker lol. She just rolled off in a rented Nissan sentra for a 2 day business trip, sad sight.
I see the points on the CC'd benefits, I just don't like dealing with stuff like that. My wife has a Hilton card so we get all those perks and free rooms etc.
If TSLA cooperates this next week I think you all have done a good job of getting me over my issues. Hopefully I can get the financing worked out tomorrow, waiting to hear back from alliance.�
Nov 3, 2013
yobigd20 8 months ownership. 29k miles. over $7000 saved in gas, oil changes, and ez-pass toll discounts compared to my previous ICE vehicle. without even going into a single tidbit of how awesome this car is, the money savings alone is enough justification for pulling that trigger.
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BTW, 5 years of driving like this ^^^^, and the total cost of ownership for my loaded P85 will be cheaper than had I purchased a Toyota Prius instead. Most people don't actually realize how much they spend on car maintenance and fuel every year...trust me, it adds up. It adds up more than a P85. So if you had the choice of owning a decked out P85 vs a Toyota Prius for the same price (actually even cheaper), which would you purchase?�
Nov 3, 2013
RoverS if you are asking yourself how can you afford a $95,000 car... then you can't afford a $95,000 car. get an Accord and save your money.
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gotta retire tomorrow. just sayin...
no it's not. life is LOOONG. especially if you make the wrong decisions...�
Nov 3, 2013
StephenM These are all great, but I don't think safety has been emphasized enough. The model S is undoubtedly the safest vehicle out there and with as much driving as your wife is doing I think you would have much more peace of mind knowing that if some idiot driver crosses her path that she will be better protected. Just one of many attributes.�
Nov 3, 2013
sub
Thanks for that, we need someone with some sanity here lol. I agree there are a lot of people that maybe can't "afford it" that have bought the model S. I have broken it down every way I can and It's not a question of can I afford it, it's more a question of do I need it and being ok with the fact that I don't "need it" but the math makes perfect sense. Not sure I am however. Yes, there is more to it than that for me, I wouldn't pay 95k for an ice, heck, I wouldn't pay 30k for an ice (helps that the math makes no sense compared to the model S).
To put your worries at rest, we could start with zero and pay for a model S in cash within a year from our income with "dispensable" cash. However, I like to look at things from the perspective of what would we do if our current income disappeared for some reason.�
Nov 3, 2013
Larry Sub
get the S85 to save the $10000 unless you or your wife are into the speed/sports car thrill. There is PLENTY of torque and speed in the S85. Bought mine as an everyday use commuter vehicle and its more then enough vehicle and its beyond fun to drive. Smile every time I get in it�
Nov 3, 2013
sub sitting here watching Sunday night football following the replies, thanks. Again, i'm not discounting the regular 85 at all, it was my intention to buy one instead of the p85 and without too many options. However, the price of a loaner P85 with many more options is barely more than the thinly optioned regular 85 I was planning to order, so it's a no brainer for me. Not to mention I've seen the list of loaners and there are no regular 85's on it currently that fit my base requirements (color, tech, panoramic). I can have my cake and eat it too with the insane acceleration. My other vehicle is a 94 Landcruiser, which takes about a day and a half to go from 0-60 but it's my snow/towing vehicle. A model S would also allow me to keep the Landcruiser another decade since I would only put 3-5k a year on it around town when the Model S is with my wife, I work from home.
edit - typo�
Nov 3, 2013
gameon Just wait for couple of years, and you have tons of options gen3 and upgraded battery in leaf or other EV making good progress...
In my mind next 2-3 years will be groundbreaking in terms of EV penetration level. Also Toyota & honda or GM will introduce more CNG or hydrogen cars (doubtful but as a consumer, multiple green option makes me feel better)
If you feel in the next couple of years, nothing looks exciting but model s you have cash and buy in no time...
If you never took a loan for something don't do it for car or any car unless it is MUST.�
Nov 3, 2013
sub
that's the problem, we are in a pickle with our car situation. We can't wait, either we buy another ice vehicle or a tesla. If we had a car that would work for another 1-2 years the decision would be a bit different. Every time I talk myself out of the Model S and into an Ice, I do the math and I get irritated. We like to have one nicer car, though I wouldn't call our 3 series wagon a luxury car, it's nicer than a civic. I tried to talk my wife into a civic for traveling today and she can't do it, and I really don't want to either. We prefer BMW/Audi type quality for our traveling car. I started this thread feeling 50/50 Model S but I would say everyone has done a good job of getting me to 75/25 model S. Looking forward to the Q3 ER report, a nice bump in the stock price will make this decision easier toward the Model S.�
Nov 3, 2013
Owner A huge reason for me in buying Tesla (started with the Roadster) was a way to help save the planet. Go solar too and your energy will eventually be free.
I'd get the S not the P if finances are an issue. After 4 years of driving the Roadster, I do not miss the acceleration with the S. If I lived in the boonies I might have a different take but could not justify the $ - especially since the P feels slow to me in comparison the the Roadster.
�
Nov 3, 2013
adiggs I'm a fan of the CC's that pay plain ol cash back. 1% is pretty typical and if you're paying them in full each month (auto-pay), then your purchases become a source of income. I never carry a balance either - I use them as a personal source of convenience, and a minor income source.�
Nov 3, 2013
Smop If you like the car just buy it. Life is too short to have a justification to buy something that you like. The pleasure/pride of ownership you get from the vehicle cannot be quantified by dollars an cents. These cars usually depreciate like a rock so just buy it and enjoy it.�
Nov 3, 2013
bsbomber Life is all about your mental health and outlook. The Tesla Model S is the best Therapy that money can buy. If you have a ****** day at work, just jump into your Model S and life will be all good once again! You can not put a price on safety and your mental health. With this in mind, if you will stress out on the cost or anything else about the purchase....I recommend to not buy it.:smile:�
Nov 3, 2013
gameon In that case nissan leaf is better option and you can lease it for 2 or 3 years (don't buy it)
If you can get $199 monthly with $1000 deposit make sense and wait for gen3 (should be around that time)�
Nov 4, 2013
SwedishAdvocate Given the following (post #13):
�I have a feeling a Leaf isn�t an option��
Nov 4, 2013
SwedishAdvocate I guess the thread title makes me disqualified to answer the question, since I�ve never been able to spend that amount of money on a car.
But if I may�
I�ve been trying to wrap my head around the Tesla financing reminder evme brought up in post #8, but it feels like there are to many unknowns for me to be able to comment on that one.
So that option aside: It seems the choice you two are facing boils down to:
Is the risk of financing about 75% of the car worth all the good things that come from buying a Model S, and as you yourself have stated (getting off gas/oil (in Post #13)). And also perhaps the P acceleration that you seem to be somewhat fond of, and which you also seem to be able to justify by going the used car route.
No matter how ethical and moral all the good things that come with getting of oil and gas in a Model S are � if they down the road somehow end up placing you in a financial pinch, then I can of course see how that can complicate things.
It seems to very much be a very personal decision that only the two of you can make.�
Nov 4, 2013
Cattledog sub - You are very rational in your process, now's the time to let that sit and trust your heart. If you trust your heart and buy the car and then something goes wrong that makes you need to get out of it, no worries, you are now selling the most desirable car on the market. You'll be buying way more than a car too, what price history? I seriously get joy thinking like that every day.�
Nov 4, 2013
scaesare This was one factor for me: MPGe -vs- MPD : The Real Figure of Merit�
Nov 4, 2013
loganss +1 I have a S85 and driven a P85 loaner. S85 is plenty fast for me and more efficient. Driving the P85 I was consistently getting 10Wh/mile higher or more energy usage over 30 miles than my S85.�
Nov 4, 2013
liuping Since the loaner discount is $1 per mile, a P85 loaner with many more options than an S85 would have to have well over 10000 miles on it, and loaner miles tend to be harder in the car the owner miles.
That kind of mileage put the car pretty heavily in the used car category for me (even if legally it was never titled)�
Nov 4, 2013
RoverS buying THINGS, especially cars, does not help save the planet. there is an extraordinary amount of raw materials and energy that go into making a Tesla. 99% of the environmental impact of an ICE car.
please, people, larger picture --- you can never help the environment by BUYING THINGS. that's what companies try to get you to believe, but it is not true. the only way you can help the planet is to NOT BUY THINGS. walk or ride a bike to work. even riding a bus is many orders of magnitude better for the environment than buying a Tesla. or a Prius. or anything else.
yes, i'm saying this after buying two new cars in a year, one that gets 14mpg. however, i'm not claiming i'm saving the planet either. i bought the Tesla because it's a great car, period. nothing environmental about the decision at all.�
Nov 4, 2013
Owner I completely agree that buying less is the first thing for the environment. And in the US we buy far far too much stuff.
But in the US, we also live in a country that was built around the automobile. I do not live anywhere near public transportation, and in non-urban areas walking/biking everywhere are simply not viable all the time.
I had a 14 year old car that I needed to replace with I think 150K miles, so I did need a new car. And with solar panels an electric car really was an environmental choice. I put down my Roadster deposit gosh 8 years ago? in order to move this electric car technology forward.
�
Nov 4, 2013
SwedishAdvocate May I ask where you got that percentage?
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May I also ask: Specifically what make and model is that ICE car?�
Nov 4, 2013
Gizmotoy I'll probably be flamed, but IMO, there is no way for most people to justify the purchase of a $95k car. It's something you want, and you just accept you're paying a lot of money for something you want. Essentially $50k evaporates into the air over your first three years (offset slightly by reduced energy/maintenance costs).
Certainly there are some shining exceptions in this thread. If your household is 100% generated from renewable with enough headroom to charge the car, and you require the range/storage of the Model S, you can justify it for staying green. Or maybe you have an extreme hatred of oil and can't stand using gas for one more month, and require the range/storage of the Model S, maybe you can justify it. Maybe you were going to spend $100k on a car no matter what, then you could probably justify it.
Otherwise, in a year or two it would be much easier to justify a slightly used Model S (let someone else take the giant financial hit) or Model E.
Certainly there are many things that help soften the blow (great for families, great safety record, no more gas stations, always full, and so on), but I find it pretty hard to say that even when combined that they overcome that ~$40k loss.�
Nov 4, 2013
jerry33 No one seems to have to justify buying a Porsche, BMW, or Mercedes. No reason why they should have to justify a Tesla either.�
Nov 4, 2013
sub My intention was not to start arguments with this thread, nor have people make the decision for me. My question was how did you justify buying the car for yourself, hoping to get different perspectives from my own. Maybe using the word "justified" is the issue, maybe I should have said "thought process". I agree, there is no way to justify a 95k car. Of course there is a significant percentage of "want" in this decision. To try and answer some of the questions:
A leaf will not work, wife does trips of 300-500 miles over 1-2 days 3-4x a month. I live in the foothills of California, I couldn't even make it to the next closest town and back in a leaf. There is no public transportation here either, not an option. It's a 220 mile round trip to the nearest airport, I want her to be able to make that without charging.
Some people have not read the entire thread, I have solar that I paid cash for, 8kw system. I have had it for about 5 months and it took about 2 months for PG&E and my contractor to get all the paperwork done, so I lost some of my excess power. Since that has been completed, and correct me if i'm wrong please, I've turned the meter backwards about 2300 kwh? I think i'm producing more than enough to power a model S with my solar, I think I make enough to charge it from empty to full 2-3 times a week. When not using AC we use about 15kwh a day. Yes, I understand my power production will decrease through the winter, I will still have excess.
I'm looking at getting a loaner, Tesla is smart in that most loaners and marketing cars are PERFORMANCE. I know there are some standards, but not many. We need a car now, and by buying a loaner it brings the price down enough so I can get a performance. Yes, it's $1.00 per mile but it's also 1% a month from production (vins I have looked at range from 9,--- to 12,7--). The cars I had looked at on the list had approximately 5-6k miles on them. Think about it, if you have a performance and you have that many miles on it, how much could you sell it for right now? We know that as soon as you drive a new car off the lot the price drops significantly initially then it's a slow decline from there. Yes, the cars have taken some use, the loaners not as much as the marketing cars so I will try and get one of those if I decide to do it. To balance that, I'm not getting hit with that big depreciation the first week. Warranty is as new and probably a lot of the little issues have been taken care of, so there is some upside. Of course I would prefer to have a brand new car for the same price! If I buy an ICE it will also be used.
I hope this makes it more clear, but I think I've already made most of these points. There is no way to justify a car that costs more than the absolute minimum and gets you to where you need to be, so even a 10k car is unjustifiable when a 1k car will get you there. I hear this argument from people that can't afford a model S and are against the company and EV's, their comment is "it's a rich mans car". They for some reason think their 20k car makes them a better person, but not to the person that can barely afford a bus pass.
I call BS on the claims that a Tesla is harder on the environment including emissions, especially when powering from Solar. Yes, I get that i'm using the grid technically to charge the car at night but during the day someone else is using my excess solar, wash. My wife and I both work from home when she is not traveling so the car will be charged during the day if needed.�
Nov 4, 2013
Gizmotoy Pretty much exactly what I was saying, yes.�
Nov 4, 2013
Longhorn92 This is true, however, I think that many potential Tesla owners would never buy a Porsche, BMW, Audi, or Mercedes because they cannot justify the cost. Tesla is definitely drawing from a slightly different crowd, and some/many may need more justification than is typical in the high-end automotive space.�
Nov 4, 2013
Crispix Gizmotoy is absolutely correct. Buying a brand new car is a phenomenal money leak. I find the attempts to rationalize kind of funny. And yes, I'm guilty, too.�
Nov 4, 2013
dsm363 Basically this. A used car is really the way to go if just looking at numbers. Model S becomes more than just numbers. It is American made, safe , fast, cool looking and he future on top of being fun to drive and energy efficient. Total package. Not a perfect car but hits almost every category and scores well.�
Nov 4, 2013
dsm363 Yep. Sometimes a little rationalization is good though�
Nov 4, 2013
sub agreed. I would not spend anywhere near this on any other car. Not only do I think they are not worth it, but the math doesn't add up either. The more you drive, the more the Tesla makes sense. I think we will put about 20k on it a year, which is what we have been doing on our main car now, maybe a bit more. I will add additional mileage because I will make as many around town trips running my daughter to school and sports in the tesla rather than my Landcruiser at 9mpg.�
Nov 4, 2013
jerry33 That's certainly correct. I would never buy a Porsche, BMW, Audi, or Mercedes. The Tesla is different (obviously since I purchased one), but I don't know that it needs any more justification than one of the other choices. I guess the point is what is meant by justification. Many people equate justification with cost but that's just one kind of justification (and perhaps the only one if they see a particular choice as being sub-optimal).�
Nov 4, 2013
Merrill I agree with most of what has been said, no way to justify the cost and not necessary. For me I have been tinkering with cars since the age of 10 and was in the car business for my career. I have spent truck loads of money on cars and not worried about the depreciation, that goes with the territory. I just love driving them and at one time fixing them, but the Tesla is in another category. Have solar and love not buying gas, plus the car is amazing in many ways. Never thought I would have an all electric car that looks good and goes so far, so for me it is a win win.�
Nov 4, 2013
JeremiahJ My wife and I looked at it and figured it would cost us the same as a $50k BMW or Cadillac. We also looked at it as a hedge against gas prices which have been growing at a rate well above inflation.�
Nov 4, 2013
ecarfan Exactly. And many people buy houses that contain huge amounts of square footage that they don't "need", but they "want". And then they have to heat and cool and clean and maintain all that space.
My wife and I live in a 1,600 sq. ft. house that we feel is plenty of space for us, but some look at it and wonder why we live in such a "small" house.
I have no problem feeling just fine about buying a $95K EV car that consumes far fewer resources to operate than an ICE.�
Nov 4, 2013
liuping I was under the impression tesla stopped doing the 1% per month and only did the $1 per mile now. If they still do 1% per month and you've found a 1 year old 5k mile loaner that gets the 1% and $1 discounts and still qualifies for all the federal and state rebates. I would think its a no brainer. Just buy it. If you do not like it you can sell it with relatively little loss�
Nov 4, 2013
Owner I somehow missed the part that you already have solar. Without an electric car and with 8Kwh of solar, you'll be throwing away money twice as you probably have too many panels and also you'll be paying the gas man. Or I would as I rarely use A/C (maybe 3 days per year) as it isn't that hot here and I have a well constructed home.
One thing to consider, the maintenance on an electric car should be lower long run than an equivalent ICE because of less moving greasy parts.
�
Nov 4, 2013
RoverS 1 - Carnegie Mellon
2 - see sig...
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You should only buy a $95k car if you
- have your retirement paid for already
-or-
- are ON TRACK to retire when you want
-and-
- have no debt
if you can't satisfy those conditions, you are conducting financial malpractice on yourself and you will hate yourself when you are 74 and still bagging groceries because your 35 year old self loved to go around saying things like "YOLO".�
Nov 4, 2013
sub I don't know how to do a multiple quote reply, so I'll try and answer here. Yes, they are still doing the 1% a month from production plus $1 per mile, that is why the Performance is a no brainer. If they had some more standard 85's with the same discount then it would definitely be a tough decision, but they don't.
I intentionally got the 8kw system with the plan to buy a tesla and drive for free. I have been fine with that plan right up until the moment it became real, then I got cold feet.
I would venture to guess that someone that is analyzing this as much as I am probably has a good hold on the rest of their financials and retirement, and I agree with the above statement. Way to many people live for today and forget about the future, the rest of us end up funding their golden years. Look at what happened in the financial crisis, people using gift money to buy toys and things they couldn't afford then when housing prices and the economy collapsed the tax payer was left holding the bag (summary of course).
I've looked at this a million ways, listened to all the opinions here and just spend a couple hours cycling thinking about it more. Crunching the numbers it breaks down to getting a 95k car for what should amount to about 12-15k out of my pocket vs driving our beat up old Junkers, most likely less. It gets more in favor of the Tesla if I throw in the purchase of a new (used) ice vehicle. All my analyzing is really based on the worst case scenario, and getting comfortable with that situation. This is a process I go through before any purchase big or small, but of course the big ones take longer to figure out.
Last thing I'm looking for is a little bump in the stock price this week, that will close the deal.�
Nov 4, 2013
YoteDown Sub,
Your situation is almost a mirror of mine! Scary close!
I have an 8K system on the house I am in. I work from my home office (IT work). I have a pool and with cali summers I can tell you I am not making close to enough on my panels. It helps for sure, but I end up paying in the hotter months. What I produce never matches what SCE sends out. Does not account for the energy loss and such. Plus I am an energy whore with all my computers running my work stuff. Plus I have to cool the house and my systems so I do get billed. I even hit tier 5 in the summer on occasion with solar. I also already had a welder 6-50 socket right where we would need to hook up the S so it just like it was meant to be, why fight it!
My wife works about 55 miles from our home. So 110 mile round trip commute. She has been doing this in our ML350 for 6 years now. We average $7500 a year in fuel and have had 2 major repairs on seals and power steering to add another say $5-6000 in repair costs already. Car now has 115,000 miles on it and I just know its going to get some more repairs soon! Our S can't get here fast enough! She though has free charging at work in all of her parking structures. They are company only chargers and she will be getting on the schedule as soon as we pick up our car 12/23. I plan on never charging our car at home in fact. Why would I when her work will pay for it
I too needed that tax credit by years end, it was a must for us. We had been looking at Focus EV (leaf is to fugly for me) and were even in the dealership to buy it before I got rubbed the wrong way. She then mentioned the range anxiety she would have, I was like you could not have mentioned that earlier! She was worried we would have an emergency right when she got to work and she would not have the juice to get home. With the S that should not happen and I had previously had it on my list but it was just so much more than I ever paid I just said no and shelved that thought. Glad she finally spoke up as it was a test drive and order the following week! Going from the ML to a focus in regards to safety was another factor for us. I want her in the safest car possible. We also took into account if GM or any manufacture does make a 150+ mile car that focus would be worth nothing. It just could be out done so easily while the S is a car of the future here today. I understand the loss in the S's value but in the end we would be paying that either to oil or losses on a lesser car so why not live and just spend the money up front and recoup it over the years.
I did tell her when she is home their is no fighting over who gets to drive. The S is mine as soon as she gets home! I wanted the P+ being an ex super bike racer. I though could not justify that extra cost when she is commuting in it mostly. I did get offered a sweet deal on a loaner P85, but still more than I had as we are paying cash for ours. Another dig at the man as I hate banks as much as oil companies, why reward any of them! I stuck with our S85 in the trim we wanted. I figure down the road I could change inverters possibly, or upgrade to a loaner a couple years after its been refined even more. We are even looking at the X already. You only live once right?�
Nov 4, 2013
gene +1,000!! I have no mortgages, I buy zero gasoline!�
Nov 4, 2013
drees One thought to add:
If it will be a requirement to make 220+mi trips without charging, while that may be easy to do while the Tesla is new, it will certainly get more difficult as time goes on and the battery slowly loses capacity. Also keep in mind that speed and weather can have a large effect on range. It may be useful to see what kind of range people regularly get - it seems that if you want to get 265 rated miles out of the Model S, you will have to keep speeds in the 65-70 mph max range in good weather. If you always obey the limit and are willing to do so for longer trips - this will be less of an issue.
Trips longer than 220+ miles will almost certainly warrant some amount of charging, so make sure you know where Tesla plans on installing Superchargers along your most frequented routes.�
Nov 4, 2013
YoteDown Think about the same thing if you had a Focus or a leaf. They also will lose range over the years, and it will hurt even more on them since they were already limited to begin with. Yet another reason to get an S!�
Nov 4, 2013
towman26 I had a MB S550 that was $130 that i leased and I was happy when we took it back. We were going to buy the car out but the book value was 20k less than the cost they wanted. We gave the car back then that night we saw the Model S in a news article and my wife told me to find info on the car. After looking at it online we put the deposit on the car. To me it isn't about justifying it because there are millions of reasons you can bring up to not get it. So we got ours on our 25 anniversary and I can't wait till they come out with a pickup truck and if they don't do the pickup I will get the model x at a later date. They are that good�
Nov 4, 2013
drees I have a LEAF (and only dream of owning a Model S - could I afford it if I really wanted to? sure, but I don't drive enough to justify it or have enough spare cash), so I am well aware of EV range and capacity loss over time. The concept is the same, but with the OP using the Model S to regularly drive 200+ miles, capacity loss over time is definitely still a factor. By the time year 5 rolls around especially with the high amount of miles driven here, I fully expect about 80% capacity to remain which will probably require some charging on that airport round-trip even with a range charge. But the first couple years shouldn't be a problem at a standard 90% charge as long as speed limits are obeyed.
The real benefit here will be Supercharging - even on those trips that are slightly out of range, it should only require a 10 minute top-off to get enough range to get you back home - but you should expect to need it at some point in time especially considering that the OP seems to keep cars for a long time.�
Nov 4, 2013
sub
Thanks for the long reply, yes our situations are similar. Nice that you use to race superbikes, I'm a motorcycle guy also. I currently own a KTM 690 SMC that I put quite a few miles on and I get paid to do it, long story. I could just about pay cash for the model S I want right now but I would rather have that making money for me, 3% is cheap money and i'm putting down just enough so that it pencils out to even or better than where we are now with our junker ice vehicles. Listen to me, i'm talking like it's a done deal now.
As far as the mileage decreasing, I've taken that into account. The nice thing is that as the mileage on the earlier Model S decreases, there will be more supercharges so you will need less and less range for the longer trips. There is already a supercharger near enough to the Sacramento Airport (Folsom) and it's on our way home though technically it would take 10-15 minutes longer to go that way, it's a nicer drive than interstate 5. I've looked at the map and I can see where the planned superchargers are, one is supposedly under construction in Roseville, but we need one also around Stockton on I5 and some up in the Napa/Santa Rosa area as that is where my wife works a lot. For now we would have to look for hotels where she can charge over night, not to concerned about that issue.
Checked in on the loaners I was interested in, the 2 I'm considering are still available so I may be pulling the trigger later this week.�
Nov 4, 2013
Trnsl8r Same here. Had P85 loaners twice and never for a second regretted getting an S85. I just replaced my rear tires after 15k miles, and heard from the SC guy that the P burns through a set of rear tires in about 5-6k miles, because the 21" wears faster naturally (and presumably from... different driving habits). Not to mention those tires are more expensive too. So I'm not so sure the loaner P85 is a "no brainer".
That aside, there is no rationalizing this. You can spare the money without worrying about retirement and such, it's just a matter of going for it if you want it badly enough. I tried rationalizing it, but quickly gave up. It's a fool's errand.�
Nov 4, 2013
sub
we were typing at the same time I think, I answered your question before you asked it I think. I was in the same boat as you until my wife took her new position, I wanted a model S but we didn't drive anywhere near enough. Her commute was 1 mile, mine was zero, and my daughters school is 1 mile. Now with my wife working a new position covering 4 states (she fly's outside of California) her travel alone makes it work, I don't have to factor in much personal use at all. With my business I also get to write off miles, so I get the added benefit of tax breaks and no fuel costs on those trips as well.�
Nov 4, 2013
drees Sounds like you've got it all figured out - I don't think you could think this through too much more and it appears to make sense for you in all areas - so just do it already! :biggrin:�
Nov 4, 2013
YoteDown I have a KTM 530 now, scary similiar , are you my long lost brother or something :biggrin:.
I think mileage loss on the S if far more acceptable then the leaf/focus/fit's out there. Agree the superchargers and for that matter more public stations will exist down the road. I think gas stations in fact will start to install them in more places over time. The more the EV's come about the more they will have to do to retain customers in their establishments.�
Nov 4, 2013
artsci Not so for me. I just changed out the 21" wheels and Continental tires for the winter. 7,000 miles on them and about 7,000 miles left with rotation when they're put back on in the spring. And I'm a very aggressive driver.�
Nov 4, 2013
RoverS my situation is very similar.�
Nov 4, 2013
sub what's that saying, "below average minds think alike" or something like that. Anyways, yes love the KTM for it's light weight and 50-60 mpg yet still being able to out perform just about any motorcycle up to about 80 mph and embarrass superbikes in the corners. I had sport bikes in the past, still fun but I've out grown the scene and never liked it at the time.
I'm aware of the 21's abuse of tires, that is something I will be keeping an eye on if I end up with those. If I want to swap to 19's I think the 21's are easy to sell and should cover the cost of some 19's.
Had a talk with my wife this evening and we are in depending on stock movement this week. It's in Elon's hands now.�
Nov 4, 2013
rcc Sub,
Saw your post explaining what you want from us.
Ok, so here's how I justified an $85K purchase (S85 - before you could buy loaners).
I've been thinking for years about getting a car that could drive in the HOV lane. That would give me 30-60+ minutes a day more with my family. This is literally priceless time.
But I also can't stand driving cars that don't have power and handling. I come from driving 5 liter Mustang GT's, BMW 3-series (with sports package). So the plug-in Prius, Leafs, etc. don't cut it. Whereas the S85 accelerates faster and corners flatter than my old 330i sport.
I needed more range than a Leaf anyway. A real-world ~70 mile range doesn't work if I'm going to drive to work, take off in the afternoon for an event in SF/Berkeley/etc., then drive home in the evening. Whereas a real-world 200 mile range is sufficient for just about every day trip our family takes. The one exception being Napa Valley where you wind up driving there, then driving most of the day, then driving home. Napa's borderline without charging. But over time, I was confident this wouldn't be an issue and with the Fremont superchargers and more L2 chargers in Napa, it's not.
My kids were getting older and the teenager was starting to complain about the back of the 3-series getting cramped. The new 3-series was probably borderline. Our "day-trip" car probably needed to be a 5-series equivalent family sedan or bigger. Again, none of the EV's or plug-in hybrids fit the bill. But the Model S is a superbly comfortable family sedan.
And the S carries an enormous amount of cargo.
From a purchase cost perspective: the Model S was about $30K more than the comparable 3-series. I could justify the additional cost based on HOV privileges and cost savings from going solar and not buying premium CA-priced (expensive) gas.
But if I recall correctly, the Model S was at most $10K more than the equivalent 5-series. Actually, when I priced a 5-series GT (hatchback), the S wound up about the same.
Given the above, for me the S was a no-brainer from a financial standpoint.
The only real worries were the quality of the car, safety and whether the car would have any fundamental defects that would cripple the company. I was comfortable taking the risk because the powertrain was the highest risk area and the S has a 2.0 powertrain. 1.0 was the Roadster. I judged that rest of the car had about the same risk as any new model car since Tesla hired some pretty sharp auto veterans to oversee the design. I think that's been proven out. The quality has been fine - just the typical teething pains you'd expect from a new car model and the odds of a nasty fundamental issue drop every quarter.
From a safety perspective, I know that what counts is caring about it and getting enough supercomputer modeling time. Given Tesla's relationship with Daimler, I figured they could get access there if they couldn't buy it on the open market. And I figured Elon had a personal stake in making the car safe because he was going to be driving his family in it. I think the safety test results and accident reports we've seen speak for themselves on that one.
Knock on wood but the family and I have been thrilled with the car. We took three day trips and put >1000 miles on the car in the first couple of weeks. The S is the primary family car and day-trip car. It's a blast to drive and I get to commute in the HOV lanes. And our 9.4KWH solar install was sized to include the Model S draw.
All is well ...�
Nov 4, 2013
DIL @RCC if you're not in marketing, you may have missed your calling.�
Nov 5, 2013
bareyb I'll admit to feeling a little guilty sometimes� It's a lot to pay for a car, and it doesn't help that virtually everyone seems to know what these cost.�
Nov 5, 2013
Shumdit Yes, that is something I think about also. That being said, if it were a Mercedes or BMW (both of which are in the same price realm as the tesla) I am not sure if would feel the same way since they are so ubiquitous by comparison.�
Nov 5, 2013
PhilBa Here's how I justified my purchase:
"Self, that's an awesome car."�
Nov 5, 2013
sub Hard to argue with yourself.�
Nov 5, 2013
Longhorn92 I do it all the time.�
Nov 5, 2013
SwedishAdvocate Could you be a little more specific?�
Nov 5, 2013
JST My logic was very similar to rcc's, above. I drove the Tesla and was smitten, but the cost seemed like an insurmountable hurdle--it was roughly 35K more than I'd ever spent on a car, and even that particular car (an E90 M3) I ended up getting rid of because I didn't drive it enough to justify the cost.
But I kept thinking about it.
Our current family car is a 535 wagon, which has plenty of space for our daily needs but cannot accommodate 3 kid seats. When we need to carpool with another kid for whatever reason, we are SOL. So, I started making a list of all of the cars that would give us that ability.
What I came up with was: 1) a faceless army of soul-destroying 3 row vehicles based on domestic or Japanese FWD sedans, like the Honda Odyssey/Pilot/MDX, the Ford Flex/Explorer, and Toyota Sienna/RAV4, or 2) Brobdingnagian European 3-rowers whose girth was matched only by their thirst and price, like the X5, Q7, LR4, etc, or 3) full-size domestic sedans like the Taurus SHO or Dodge Charger that might fit three seats across the back.
None of these vehicles, with the potential exception of the SHO and maybe the SRT-8, had even the slightest sporting pretensions. All of them cost a minimum of 40K (optioned as I'd want), on up to 70+ for some of the European SUVs. None of them inspired even the slightest interest in me.
So, armed with the conclusion that there really isn't anything else out there that both does what I need to do AND would put anything other than a grimace on my face every time I saw it in the street, I revisited the Tesla.
I don't drive as much as some on the board, but even compared to our current car my gas savings are going to be 150+ per month. Compare it to the M3 I used to have, and the gas savings jump past 200 (that car drank fuel like it had been designed by Saudi royalty). If you do the math on cost of ownership with the RVG, the high retail price is offset somewhat by the tax credit--the car "leases" for a lot less than you might think given the kind of crappy residual and the high retail cost. At the end of the day, the total per monthly cost for the 95K S should be about the same as what I spent every month on my 60K M3.
That was the moment it really "clicked" for me--I think I submitted my down payment the next day.�
Nov 5, 2013
Dukecat OP, I saw a reference somewhere in the thread that you're looking for a car for your wife to drive 300-500 miles over 1-2 days a few times a month. Will this essentially be the same drive (one that you're comfortable with based on current charging infrastructure), or different ones? Are you comfortable that every trip can be planned so that non-SC charge locations will only be needed for night stops? Personally, I would not want to have to do the "flight planning" as frequently as she would with the current SC infrastructure. As I'm sure you know, there's a reason why everyone is clamoring for updates on SC builds, permit approvals, construction pictures, etc., and that is the critical importance of them for those long drives.
Hopefully the conversation is not moot because of the hit TSLA is taking right now after-hours, but in any event, before buying and if you haven't done so already, I would take a hard look at the driving your wife will be doing and how that will work with the current SC infrastructure. I would also not go any further than those sites that have already been fully confirmed for completion in the short-term when making any assumptions.
Good luck with your decision!�
Nov 5, 2013
sub Already had all her routes figured out, there are either superchargers on the way or she would be staying where she could charge over night. There would still possibly be the occasional trip where it wouldn't work until SC build out. It is all Moot however, with TSLA plunging I'm not selling any shares. Told the wife we will continue to drive our old cars and rent, doesn't look like that will work either. I may be forced into buying a car I don't want short term, ugh.�
Nov 5, 2013
shark Early in 2012 it looked like we would spend <$50K for a (40 kWh) Model S (after federal rebate and state refund). We ended up getting a not fully loaded 60 kWh because we couldn't justify $95K for a car.�
Nov 5, 2013
ssq This is a great thread for an on-the-fence buyer like me�
Nov 5, 2013
YoteDown Bummer on the stock.
EM did note the demand is there, but the supply of cells is not. He said get an order in now as the wait is going to grow. I think the more of the cars out there the more they get noticed and wanted by others just adds to it. Tesla owners are the best salesman Tesla has.�
Nov 5, 2013
brianman I've never had difficulty doing this.�
Nov 5, 2013
DIL This is GOLD for me. Bravo.�
Nov 5, 2013
gene Me, I drove the car, loved it. It was $75K more than I had ever spent. Tossed and turned in bed a few weeks, finally pushed that finalize button. From the first hour I owned my Model S I asked myself "why did I even doubt this purchase!" Now 7 months and 15,000 miles later, I can't wait for Gen III to buy one for my wife and another one for my son!�
Nov 5, 2013
YoteDown Hearing this is definitely helping me while I wait on my pick up date. I can feel the Tesla grin on my face already!�
Nov 6, 2013
bareyb That's sounds so familiar. I had all but decided to either get another of what I had or a Jeep Grand Cherokee. I kept putting it off because the car I had while ten years old still ran well and I just didn't care enough about the choices I had to bother. So I drove around in a dinged up 2004 SUV and decided to just keep it and save the money. When I saw my first Model S in the wild it was love at first sight. This makes up for not having new Wheels for ten years. I tell myself it's the same as if I'd bought one $50k car every five years.�
Nov 6, 2013
DIL Again, yes! I'm coming out of an 11 year old car with >175K miles, so I've been good till now.�
Nov 6, 2013
Nathan Smith Ok,
Not to highjack the thread... But I saw this statement and couldn't wrap my head around it. So I crunched some numbers - assuming a fully loaded prius (about $39K), 3625 miles per month, $3.232/gal (today's national average), and over 5 years. Total gas cost is about $14,059 added to the $39K and we get $53,059. Assuming Toyota gives a standard 4 year warranty (didn't look that part up), 1 years maintenance cost would be in the order of $35K. This doesn't add in the cost of oil changes - depending on you area could be between every 3 - 10K miles. Assuming every 3K, that would be 72.5 oil changes. Assuming $50 per oil change and we can add another 3,625 to the overall cost. We may have some arguement about the cost of gas going up, but our government does a lot to keep the price of gas down and I don't see that changing any time soon.
Since I drive my S about the same, I would LOVE to be able to say what yobigd20 is saying -- I just don't see how he came up with that.�
Nov 6, 2013
Lloyd Umm.... 39 + 14 is 53!�
Nov 6, 2013
Nathan Smith :redface:�
Nov 6, 2013
Grendal My intent is to make enough on the stock market to buy the Model S free and clear while still having more in my account than what I started with. So far I have made half and I've still got a year and a half to go. No options, just straight buying and selling.�
Nov 7, 2013
neroden *waves* That was me. My quality of life went up substantially by not going to the gas station. I was cursing and swearing and.... anyway. I've used the range and I've used the storage.
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Your wife probably drives enough that the economics actually do favor a Tesla Model S, though it's really on the edge. Most people don't drive enough. The person in the ideal economic position for a Model S drives an enormous number of miles per month, but not more than ~200 miles per day. For someone who drives 200 miles every single day, the economics are highly favorable. For someone driving 110 miles per day, it's still close to favorable. Since you already have the solar panels, that makes it more favorable.
With your wife driving that much, the safety issue should also be high in your mind. Driving a lot is a good way to get killed (the rate of injury and death by auto accidents is much higher than most people think), and you want a very safe car.
Never ever think about stocks that way if you're a long term investor. It'll just give you pain.
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If you can't bring yourself to buy the Model S now, lease a car. This is when you actually want to lease a car. Leasing cars long-term is not usually sensible, but if you're just trying to get a car for a year or two until you can buy the car you really want, that's when you lease.
The one advantage of delaying your purchase is that next year's model will be even better than this year's. I have sometimes regretted getting a model from the first six months of production (though I really could not delay any longer).�
Nov 7, 2013
sub I think this last couple of days has been painful for anyone in TSLA regardless of their plans. I will have to say that I did alter my ER strategy because I was planning to sell some of the shares. If I had stuck to my original plan this drop wouldn't have affected me, I would actually be ahead. Lesson learned.�
Nov 7, 2013
neroden National averages are misleading. Try running with $4/gallon, which is going to be a roughly correct average for the next few years in the more expensive parts of the country.
I still don't get to "pays for itself" with $4 gas, but it is closer.�
Nov 8, 2013
digitaltim Ditto here - I got about 15k out of the original Contis.�
Nov 8, 2013
Denarius I've got 9.2k on my PS2s and based off of current wear it looks like I'll get 14k out of them.�
Nov 8, 2013
RoverS what is an "ER strategy"?�
Nov 8, 2013
ssq Are there any indications when the model S design refresh would happen ?�
Nov 8, 2013
Shumdit Early Retirement? Emergency Room, Equity Retention, Extended Range, Equity Ratio, Emergency Rations
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I heard 6 years mentioned, but also a refresh possibly at 4 (meaning bumper covers, taillights, etc, but not body changes usually)�
Nov 9, 2013
David_Cary I am guessing ER is Early retirement.
Changing oil every 3k miles is something rational people only do when they are trying to justify an EV purchase. There is no 2013 car that I know of that gets 3k miles on an oil change. My last 2 cars were well over 10k miles (545 and Civic).
It should be noted that the majority of the population lives where gas is well below $4 a gallon and will likely stay that way (although who the heck knows). And where gas is $4 a gallon, electricity is rarely $.10 a kwh.
In my local area, the pump says $3.17. My TOU rate is $.05 kwh. We have 2 new regional superchargers and we have Tesla's all over (store and SC 15 miles away for me).
Financial justification is almost never possible - except in Norway. Doesn't mean it isn't a fantastic car.�
Nov 9, 2013
YoteDown ER is Earnings Report. Think he was talking about his strategy around earnings, sell before, or after report was released.�
Nov 9, 2013
Chickenlittle What a strange topic, how do I justify a 95 k car purchase....easy I am an adult with the means to and don't have to justify it to anyone. I had reasons to buy it but I will not justify it to others. I enjoy not gassing it up. I enjoy not smelling the fumes and hope others will buy so I don't smell theirs. I enjoy the performance (which of course does not mean being irresponsible). I enjoy being a part of change and hoping for a better future. I enjoy low maintenance. I enjoy the safety factor�
Nov 9, 2013
neroden They just keep changing things continuously, believe it or not.
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Regular gas is averaging $3.60 where I am, which means that premium (which is what you'd use for a comparably luxurious sedan) is more like $3.80. Electricity is running $0.10, and dropping.
Your numbers will vary wildly depending on where you live, but when I set up a spreadsheet, it made it very clear that the people who gain the most financially from an electric car are people who drive a great deal, but never go very far from home. (Limo services are an ideal market for the Model S financially.)�
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