Aug 23, 2012
MikeK If the gap were an inch wide, but absolutely consistent to the micrometer, would you still say that the consistency of the gap was all that was important? I don't think you would. The gaps on the cars in Elon's photos may be absolutely perfectly consistent, but to my eye and from that angle, they are large enough that they make the trunk look misaligned. Illusion or no, it just doesn't look good.
In another thread, you challenged AnOutsider to look at other expensive cars on the road, and suggested that he was unfairly holding Tesla to a higher standard. I read your challenge yesterday and I took your suggestion to heart. I paid attention to the cars I saw on the road yesterday and today, especially the white and silver ones. What I found was that I do not see a gap as large as the ones I've seen on Model S on any other car, with the notable exception of a Karma I happened to come across. (On that particular Karma, the gaps were substantially larger and more uneven than those on the Model S.) I saw Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Toyota, Acura, etc.
I happened to end up at a light next to a white Lexus and it, like the other cars I had seen so far that day, had nice, consistent gaps around the trunk, so I snapped the photo. It seemed off topic to the Inside Tesla thread to post the photo there, so I posted it here instead. I'm absolutely not trying to hold Tesla to a higher standard than I would any other premium/luxury car maker, but I do expect the Model S to look as if it fits together as well as those other cars do.
A few weeks ago, I was thinking that perhaps the trunk gap was just an optical illusion -- an unfortunate manifestation of the particular choices made in where to put the trunk opening and how to place the seam. Something that was unavoidable, given the design, and I was thinking that I would just order the car in a dark color that would make gaps less apparent. Then I found that video that I posted earlier in this thread: Build quality: alignment of trunk - Page 10
Compare the cars in Elon's photo with the white Model S Beta that is in the video. The gaps on the car in the video are clearly substantially tighter than what's in Elon's photo. They look nice, and every bit as tight as that Lexus, despite the multiple shapings. The design prototype also showed very tight seams on the rear hatch. Tighter than the car in that video, in fact. It looked great in white and silver.
This is what I understood to be the design intent for the car, and is what I understood that Tesla intended to produce. Elon made his comments on the conference call about how seriously they were taking the fit of the body. I even arranged to go to the most recent Palo Alto "Get Amped" event to see how they were progressing, and I could clearly see that the newer cars had tighter gaps than the older ones. They were still a little uneven (the blue car's gap was wider on the right side of the car than on the left, and the black car's trunk wasn't flush at the rear), but things appeared to be improving. At least one Tesla person who had been to the factory said that things were even better in the week or so since those Get Amped cars were produced.
So, I was confident enough to order my car in white. But now I see Elon's photo. It's a photo that, from the tone of his tweet, he seems to be pleased with. But the gaps don't even look as tight as the cars I saw in Palo Alto, much less the car in that video. So, I'm concerned that Tesla's target is not what I understood it to be.�
Aug 23, 2012
Beavis Mike, I see your point but those photos are really not great evidence. I certainly don't feel that it is as obvious as you do. Let's wait for some better photos or vids before drawing a conclusion.�
Aug 23, 2012
contaygious I sure hope those photos were of unfinished cars. I too was at the event and asked many reps about the alignment and they all assured me the fit was the most important thing being worked on so I highly doubt they would ship something worse then they were showing. We'll just have to wait for more pictures and actual deliveries I guess. Crossing my fingers!!!!!!�
Aug 23, 2012
Robert.Boston Audi came up with an interesting solution to the challenge of getting the difficult seams on the hatch right: they've used the seam inherent in the window/metal gap:
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Aug 23, 2012
KBF To my eye the Audi looks just as "bad" as the Tesla, just at the bottom of the hatch instead of at the sides. That's a really thick black line under the brakelights to the license plate. I think that to non-obsessive people (I'm here obsessing too, so I'm intending to use that word in a non-derogatory way, though it sounds bad :wink, it just isn't a big deal. Of course, I'm getting red, so none of the lines are very noticeable...
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Aug 23, 2012
Norbert Yes, it looks consistent. A large hatch might need more spiel for the closing movement compared to a small trunk, which is more like the doors. The lines are also part of the design at least to some extent. I don't mean to say it's better than if it were more tight, though.
- - - Updated - - -
Maybe it's just me, but to me *this* Audi from *this* angle doesn't look half as good, hatch and otherwise.�
Aug 23, 2012
Krugerrand MikeK: Take a closer look at all those cars you're comparing to S. How shaped (or in most cases, how NOT shaped, but flat they are) compared to ALL the panels on the S. Look at how the Manufacturers 'cheat' so that they specifically do NOT have to put shaped panel beside shaped panel. Like the Audi pictured above. It's a cheat the way that hatch is designed so that making the panels and fitting them together are easy. And lets be honest...the gapping looks as wide as it does on the S. The Lexus trunk is flat all the way around, fitted to a side panel that is flat where they meet. There's all of one bend in it, matched to all of one bend in the panel. Easy peasy by comparison.
Every shape/bend/curve in that Tesla hatch is going in a different direction and then having to butt up against another panel with shaping going in yet other directions. Unless you've actually tried to fit that kind of panelling together, you have no idea how exponentially harder it becomes with every additional shape/bend/curve. And that's why manufacturers of most other vehicles design their vehicles to have flat surface beside flat surface. There are few models out there that don't shy away from shaping, look at those vehicles and compare to the S to get apple to apple.
Another thing that has to be considered is if panels are flush...meaning, if you run your fingers over the seam, is one panel higher than the other. That happens a lot on cars. I've got a Cobalt sitting in the parking lot that I can read brail off of for the poor flush fitting. The gapping is good, but then it's a pretty flat panelled car.
At this point, I'm saying, considering the aggressive shaping in the S, they're doing a very good job with gapping and they've made steps along the way to improve it. That's got to be a serious plus to consider, rather than a negative in my books.�
Aug 23, 2012
AnOutsider Ah, that explains it.�
Aug 24, 2012
MikeK I absolutely agree that the Model S is not a straightforward shape to build. I am not in any way unsympathetic to the efforts that I'm certain Tesla's manufacturing folks are making. It has clearly gotten better, just since the initial Get Amped cars were built. I also have heard that aluminum is harder to form precisely than steel, so that's another challenge they face.
In one of the test drive photo sets that have been posted in the last couple of months, there was a shot of a Model S body panel fitted into a jig, with carefully hand-written figures all along the joint noting (I presume) deviations from the design fit. I'm an engineer, although I do software and not hardware. I appreciate how hard it is to get things right, especially when you're not content to settle for "ordinary". I'm certain that they're busting ass, and I can't even picture how you go about debugging panel fit like this on a car!
For better or for worse, what I do for a living is that I design high-definition user interfaces for consumer electronics devices. I deal in pixels all day long. I'm *extremely* sensitive to symmetry, alignment, and so forth. My house remodeling contractors have told me they're surprised that I can usually estimate the size of something by eye to high precision (usually 1/16" or so for smallish objects). I also have 20/13 vision. I'm probably going to be among the most sensitive customers Tesla has on this issue.
So, do I disagree that they're doing well considering that it's a new and ambitious design, on new tooling, in a new factory? No I do not. Does that background and context mean that I think that photo looks good? No, it does not.
I think the Model S trunk can look good if it's really nailed. The white car in that YouTube clip looks good around the trunk. It has some minor fit issues visible, but the trunk looks, for lack of a better word, as if it "belongs" with the rest of the car. When the gap gets as big as I've seen at some of the Get Amped events, the trunk looks like it's sitting on the car, but doesn't belong there.
The cars in Elon's photo appear to be right on the ragged edge between looking good and looking not so good, and I agree with others that it's hard to make a call from the photo. I bet if that gap were about 3/32" tighter, it would totally "click" visually, and photo or not there would be no question that the fit was good. We're not talking big changes here. There are 1,000 cars to build before mine, at least. If Tesla is continuing to refine, I bet it will end up looking great. If they're satisfied with what's in that photo, though...�
Aug 24, 2012
MikeK For what it's worth. I just showed Elon's photo to a friend who knows next to nothing about Model S, and asked her, "Does anything in this picture look at all odd to you?" Her response: "Well, the trunk seems a little weird."�
Aug 24, 2012
contaygious 
?�
Aug 24, 2012
ckessel The Model S seems to have more noticeable gaps in the entire car than some other cars. I figured that was part of the look that was intended.�
Aug 24, 2012
NigelM An out of focus camera phone picture of unreleased cars awaiting inspection.....Maybe worth waiting until we see some proper photos of released cars? Just sayin'�
Aug 24, 2012
4sevens.com I doubt it's intended... bigger gaps = more aero drag.�
Aug 24, 2012
Krugerrand And as I already explained...flat panel fitted to flat panel on both the Porsche and the CT200 vs highly shaped panel fitted to highly shaped panel on the S. Apples to oranges.�
Aug 24, 2012
MikeK You are explaining why a tight gap is difficult to achieve. We understand. The issue is not that it's difficult to achieve a tighter gap given the shape of the Model S. The issue is that the gap is unsightly, and it in no way resembles the look of the original design:
Clearly, the car was not originally intended to have such a large gap. It was intended to have tight-fitting panels, and so far that fit has not been achieved at the trunk. It may be that the gap will get tighter as manufacturing is refined, or it may be that they have reached the limits of what they can do. In the latter case, I suspect that a later iteration of the car will change the design so that the gap is treated differently, so as to minimize the visual artifacts. Far too many disinterested parties have seen the Get Amped cars either in person or in photos and remarked to me that the trunk looks weird. I'm sure Tesla is hearing the same thing. They will not want that issue to persist.
To double-check myself, I showed Elon's tweet photo along with my own photos from the Get Amped events to a prominent industrial designer today (I happened to be in a meeting). He agreed that it didn't look great. His opinion was that Model S looked better in a dark color because the dark color hides all of the body seams, but he simultaneously admitted that he wasn't crazy about owning a dark car because of the constant struggle keeping it looking its best. He thought the gap was something that an owner would get used to. Interestingly, his partner liked the white better because of how the nose cone and other elements "pop" against the white (this is also what I like about the white).
So, it's not a show-stopper, but gosh it would be great if they could tighten that gap up. I really don't think it would take much more to get it really great.�
Aug 24, 2012
Todd Burch Keep in mind, MikeK, that while it looks realistic, that may be a computer rendering.
While I think those gaps could be closed up some, they don't bother me in their current state. I guess I'm not super picky about that kind of stuff.�
Aug 24, 2012
jerry33 i guess the thing to do is to talk to your insurance company about gap coverage.�
Aug 24, 2012
Johan +1 this. Great stuff. $2000 a tear?�
Aug 24, 2012
MikeK True enough, but the drivable prototype was the same:
:biggrin:�
Aug 24, 2012
Robert.Boston Notice, too, how sleek the mid-line bar is on the pano roof. I'd give up the larger panel gaps to get such a sleek implementation of the pano!�
Aug 24, 2012
J in MN The paint finish on the Model S, particularly on the dark colours, is so incredibly reflective that I don't think it does anything at all to hide the seams.
I'm afraid it might take new stamping dies. That sounds like a very expensive proposition.�
Aug 24, 2012
MikeK J, I disagree. I've seen the dark colors in person, and on the blue, green and black, the seams are definitely minimized. You do see them especially if the car is in bright sun, but the contrast is lower so they don't jump out as much. They don't grab your attention.
Regarding the dies, my understanding is that it's possible to modify them, at least to an extent, to refine them. I am certainly not an expert.
One more example of a good fit. This is Tesla's video of the test drives at the October launch event. This URL should jump you to 10 seconds, but if not, just go ahead to 10 seconds and look at the white car pulling away. I think that's probably the same car that they ended up putting into Santana Row, and which is in that other video I posted. The gaps at the trunk are tight and the car looks great.
I really hope this is what they're working towards. Time will tell.�
Aug 24, 2012
jerry33 I looked carefully at the cars in the Dallas Get Amped and I didn't see any problems with the gap. They looked even and not noticeably wider than those on other cars. The cars were silver, white, blue, and brown(s).
I don't think we'll really know what the gap is like until production reaches full speed.�
Aug 24, 2012
contaygious Now that pic just makes me even more mad about the ugo pano bar!�
Aug 24, 2012
ddruz 80% of people voted for a slimmer aesthetic pano roof bar over a bigger bar that accommodates a sunshade in the poll we ran a few weeks back: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/9455-Would-you-buy-the-panoramic-roof-without-a-sunshade
Contact your Tesla rep and request it. Maybe they will change it if structurally possible and enough people raise their voices. Same thing with the trunk alignment. Tesla seems to listen to sincere and constructive feedback.�
Aug 24, 2012
contaygious Yeah but when I asked about it I was told safety and sunshade reasons. Not much luck�
Aug 25, 2012
Brian H I think it's secretly a rollbar.�
Aug 25, 2012
jerry33 Now there's a gap:
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Aug 25, 2012
AnOutsider That was my thought too.. something with them going for that 5 star rating�
Aug 25, 2012
EarlyAdopter Unless you're looking at photos taken by the same camera from the same angle in the same light, you can't make a comparison. All three of those factors have a huge impact on shadow detail.
Better to look at videos that will show a continuous sweep through many angles.�
Aug 25, 2012
MikeK In general, I agree with you. And in that video I linked above, there is just such a sweep as the white car pulls away.
I do think that this gap thing with the trunk is at least partially dependent on the angle from which you are looking at the car, as I said above. But the root of it is that the gap is comparatively large, so that there does exist an angle where it is really prominent. With a smaller gap, you don't get the same effect. It's pretty clear that the cars on the Get Amped tour, even the most recent ones, don't match the October event's white beta in terms of that fit.
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Aug 26, 2012
chmod a+wrx Just a thought here.......
....any chance that the gap in the hatch is related to the automated nature of opening and closing it? ? ? ?�
Aug 26, 2012
AnOutsider Possibly. We've seen at least one photo where the gap is better than those seen in the twitter picture. So I guess the question is why.... And your theory could be an answer... Could also be that the one we saw was manually adjusted too and/or the ones in the pic had not been�
Aug 26, 2012
WarpedOne I bet most of this "problem" is due to bad photography.
Just look at this ghastly gap:
Lexus RX450gh�
Aug 26, 2012
MikeK It's possible that that's the case with Elon's tweet photo. It's not true generally, though, because I've seen the gap very obviously on cars that I've seen in person.
One thing I did notice with my own iPhone photos is that shooting HDR, the gap looks wider than shooting without HDR turned on. Something about how it stacks the multiple exposures, perhaps.
Regarding the door mechanism, as I was trolling the Internet looking for photos of the early prototype, I came across a photo that reminded me that the original hatch design used a complex linkage that allowed the hatch to actually pivot forward slightly over the roofline. Perhaps that linkage also allowed the hatch to close in a way that allowed for super tight gaps. But, the car in the photo above (with Elon, from the October event) has the shipping configuration, and it was operable and has reasonably tight gaps.
Here's that prototype linkage:
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Aug 26, 2012
pete8314 Because of this thread, I've been obsessively trying to find other cars with similarly complicated panels on the trunk. The result? Nada. It seems most fastbacks/hatchbacks (whatever you want to call them) get some straight close lines by using the rear window. Other cars in the same segment seem to have vastly simpler lines where panels meet. It leads me to wonder if someone in the Tesla design shop isn't kicking themselves for creating something that's clearly fairly troubling. I'm sure they'll fix it, but it must be consuming time they'd rather spend elsewhere. My view is that the trunk panel shape is unecessarily complicated, and while it adds to the uniqueness of the car, it clearly has some downsides.�
Aug 26, 2012
MikeK I would bet you that if they had it to do over again, they'd revise where the trunk seam falls.�
Aug 27, 2012
ddenboer Some gap pics from today at Santana Row. Not as good as some, but better than the ones that were there in March.
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Aug 28, 2012
MikeK Did you happen to catch the VIN on that car? If it was 115, it was the same one that was at Palo Alto earlier this month, and is actually not all that recent. (I do recall that this car looked pretty decent.)�
Aug 28, 2012
contaygious Well even if that one is bad at least it seems to match the door gaps�
Aug 28, 2012
mulder1231 Maserati GranTourismo has some similar curvy panel lines for the hood, doors, and trunk. Although it's not a hatchback. But the gaps look really tight, even on white.
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Aug 28, 2012
Adm �
Aug 28, 2012
mulder1231 To me it looks like the same trajectory on the trunk, just a smaller size trunk. This may be a better picture for comparison:
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Aug 28, 2012
brianman @mulder1231 - In you first picture, I didn't see any gaps along the curves but I'm not sure I saw a car in that picture.�
Aug 28, 2012
pete8314 The second picture helps, but to me that now just looks like basically the same truck design as many other modern sedans (and my current A5, for that matter). There's no matching from the roof down the C pillar, which seems to be the main challenge on the S.�
Aug 28, 2012
MikeK Yes, I'd say we've clearly discovered an effective way to not see any panel alignment issues...�
Aug 28, 2012
onlinespending haha...yes. gaps? what gaps? And you can't include that second Maserati pic. It's clearly rendered�
Aug 28, 2012
Robert.Boston Hmm, does that mean they're shipping each Model S with its own gap-distracter?�
Aug 28, 2012
brianman Hah. Personal delivery indeed.�
Aug 28, 2012
stopcrazypp Agreed. That design is used in most sedans and in some sedan-like hatchbacks (where the "gap" is integrated into the rear window glass and there is no body colored strip surrounding the rear windows). The job of the Model S is a lot harder. Maybe the next version they will use a more "conventional" design.�
Aug 28, 2012
mulder1231 Ok, I get it. But I see much more curviness, especially the back view, and around the hips--gorgeous all around! (I'm talking about the car ;-))�
Aug 28, 2012
dmetcalf Not sure my wife will like her new title of gap distracter�
Aug 29, 2012
jerry33 There was a car in the picture?�
Sep 2, 2012
MikeK For what it's worth, as I was driving around yesterday, I actually saw two cars on the road whose rear hatch gaps were as wide as the ones we've seen on some Model S. An Audi Q7, and an Infiniti FX35.
As with the Model S, the gaps are most visible from certain angles. The Q7's most-visible angle is similar to Model S. I notice that the Infiniti in the photo also seems to have a misaligned hatch, or maybe the camera is slightly off center.
Anyway, I still hope that we will see tighter gaps on the Model S. The car looks much better when the gaps are tighter, as the photos earlier in this thread show, on the design prototype and the hand-built betas that were at the October Fremont event.
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Sep 2, 2012
contaygious My hatch is a lot cleaner on my 03 fx
2003 Infiniti FX - San Francisco, CA owned by contaygious23
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Sep 18, 2012
4sevens.com I'm very concerned about gaps and fitment... My pearl white is scheduled to be delivered before the end of the year and I absolutely will not accept deliver on something close to this....
or this
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Sep 18, 2012
bonnie Would you accept something like this?
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Sep 18, 2012
4sevens.com Of course not! I'm not buying THAT ^^!
I'm just saying I will not accept delivery of a defective or poorly made product. I will be spending 6 figures for a product that should be perfect.
And to quote Elon, �We will never make a bad product. Tesla will never ship a product unless that product is very compelling,�
Anything close to these pictures I will be refusing delivery.
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Sep 18, 2012
bonnie As should anyone. But we've already seen that the cars delivered are substantially different than the beta pictures you've posted. So I think you're going to be fine.�
Sep 18, 2012
4sevens.com I got caught up in the hype during their driving event in Dallas I didn't observe the list of things I intended to (including the folding rear seats).
I'm just concerned that with their intention to ramp up production geometrically that stuff will be missed or compromised. Even Elon mentioned something to that effect on the earlier production models.
I wonder if I should request a change from white to another color since white really brings out the gaps - it's truly a risking color regarding this issue.
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Here's the quote... "In the beginning, we have to be slightly imperfect because we don't have everything completely dialed but our aspiration is to get to cars that are accurate to the limit of reasonable physics." - Elon (source http://www.autoblog.com/2012/09/07/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-q-and-a/)
Since cars are already being delivered - that means there are imperfection compromises made for the early deliveries.
Yes he aspires to perfection and there are some laser calibration devices on order - but thats for future cars - cars that are delivered or are in production right now may have these compromises until they are fixed. I hope they resolve that before I get mine which I'm told is by the end of the year.�
Sep 18, 2012
Krugerrand Your idea of imperfection, I believe, is quite a bit different than Mr. Musk's idea of imperfection. I wouldn't sweat it.�
Sep 18, 2012
contaygious With all the deliveries taking place what are people's thoughts in the alignment now? Or Are we all waiting to see White production s to make the call?�
Sep 18, 2012
MikeK NEWDL has just posted photos of his white Model S!
Our Model S is home...
Not a lot of pictures, but it looks pretty sharp.�
Sep 18, 2012
AnOutsider Indeed, the panels on his car look very good. Thumbs up to Tesla there.�
Jun 29, 2015
jacobp Resurrecting an old thread. I have a late 2013 P85. At delivery, the trunk and frunk alignment were excellent. Now, about 18 months after delivery, i noticed that the trunk alignment is way off. I took it to the SC and they agreed and had a body shop realign the trunk. I also had them check the frunk alignment and the SC said it was within specification. Now, a week after getting the car back from the trunk realignment, I've noticed that the frunk alignment seems way off and i never even open the frunk. I've not been in any accidents or hit any potholes, etc. This is very weird and was wondering if the community might have any thoughts about what might be happening.�
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