Jun 23, 2012
Right_Said_Fred On several cars that were shown at yesterday's event I've noticed that the trunk does not completely align with the back of the car (see pictures below). On the brown car you can see that the lines of the right tail light are not completely aligned (on the left one they are). The blue car has the same problem, but less noticable.
I hope - and think - Tesla will fix this as they step up production.
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Jun 23, 2012
ElSupreme I think this has more to do with the 'slop' bolting on the plastic lamp housings, versus a real panel misallignment.
My GTI had/has this. I replaced all the rear lamp housings (to LEDs :smile: with amber turn signals, :biggrinand I fixed/changed the way the lamps align with the body panels and themselves. You could probably 'fix' this the way you want it to look with a socket set.
Also if there is any change in depth this will look bad in photos at most angles.�
Jun 29, 2012
MikeK I'm more concerned with the gap on the side of the trunk. Compared to the panel gaps on the doors, etc, that gap looks quite oversized. I'm also not very happy with how the bottom edge of the trunk aligns with the bumper below it. I had hoped for better panel fit by this point. My fingers are certainly crossed that we'll see an improvement by the time my car is built.
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Jun 29, 2012
medved Yeah, I noticed that too on many videos. Sometimes i think the trunk is not closed properly. And that is way i am considering black color. It shouldn't be that visible on black.�
Jun 29, 2012
MikeK It's definitely not as visible on the darker colors. Here's the blue:
And here's the Dolphin Grey:
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Jun 29, 2012
SoCalGuy The rear tire well looks like its very close to touching the tire - does anyone know what the GVWR is for the Model S? Curious what its payload capacity is. The Karma's is relatively low (800lbs) which I suppose is fine for 4 adults and a small trunk.�
Jun 29, 2012
Todd Burch You cannot look at a picture to determine gap and flush. The gap you are seeing is on a complex curved surface whose normal direction changes as you progress from the trim toward the taillight. Near the chrome trim, the normal direction points more toward the camera. Near the taillight, the normal direction points more straight up. This results in foreshortening that makes it appear as though there is a significant gap and flush problem.
For what it's worth, I am in the precision metrology field, and I daily work with precision measurement in manufacturing on anything from spacecraft and aircraft to automotive and particle accelerators.
What you are seeing is an optical illusion.�
Jun 29, 2012
Robert.Boston Further, if you get the air suspension, it auto-balances load, so you shouldn't have trouble carrying large or even unbalanced loads.�
Jun 29, 2012
Todd Burch It looks close because the air suspension is at its full lower limit. It's very likely not because there are a few people sitting in the back.�
Jun 29, 2012
ElSupreme THIS!�
Jun 29, 2012
medved Great, they should just type on the car next to it: "The gap you are seeing is just an optical illusion" :frown:
It should be done such way that you don't see an illusion like that. I checked other cars and they have that part hidden behind the pillar.
Like for example you can see here:
![[?IMG]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/blogger_img_proxy/AEn0k_smNko483w1GyOUvMwBcalIlUv9rCVgE1wNLW1MoaBmzoY0veLwSDFIAZXt9uPAF-K4o_242bw68nOiA1IsvR8-191hKZqiA8OMEhw1qG3yGjC4uTTYNWk2=s0-d)
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Jun 29, 2012
MikeK Yes, exactly. Optical illusion or not, it looks bad when you're looking at the car. I took two friends to the test drive, and they both said, "Ew, what's wrong with the trunk?"
Further, please click on the photo of the white car that I posted, and zoom it to full original resolution. Look at the fit of the bumper cover, the rear quarter panel, and the trunk lid in the area below the tail light. Whether or not the gap variation on the inclined portion is an optical illusion, the fit at that intersection below the tail light is not very tight.
This was the original design intent of how the trunk should fit:
Tesla Model S | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
(not my own photo; found via web search)
Now, obviously, there are constraints related to function and manufacturability, etc, and I do understand that. So maybe this is the best that could realistically be done. But aesthetically, the gap is a problem in my opinion, so I think Tesla will have to address it, perhaps with a subtle redesign of that area in a later model year. I'm still hoping that it can be tweaked for better aesthetics this year, though.�
Jun 29, 2012
MikeK PS: Perhaps part of the change from that design intent model to the production cars is due to the change in the design of the trunk. Have a look at this old photo (also found via Google), of one of the design prototypes. It uses a complex hinge system that lets the trunk lift up and over the roof as it opens, and probably affects clearances and tolerances of how the lid can come down.
Link
Perhaps when they switched to a more conventional hinge, they had to modify the clearances and/or fit of the door. But by keeping the parting line in the same place, they end up in a situation where, from the side, the gap looks quite large.
[edited to fix the link]�
Jun 29, 2012
brianman @MikeK - Link no worky.�
Jun 29, 2012
Todd Burch I agree with you there. That is definitely a fit issue. I think that should be worked out in fairly short order. I was referring to the apparent gap issue on the hatchback when I was mentioning the optical illusion.
I think those sorts of things will get more refined with every additional build. I see the taillight issue. That should be fixable in fairly short order.
I guess the panel gap on the hatch is a personal thing...it doesn't bother me. I don't see them redesigning the hatch area so that the gap is hidden behind a pillar anytime soon...but Tesla is small, nimble, and does a lot of in-house work, so we'll have to see.�
Jun 29, 2012
doug This is the image that stuck out to me:
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Jun 29, 2012
medved That's a good one. You can even see the panel on the hatch casting a shadow. So it doesn't look to me as an optical illusion.�
Jun 29, 2012
Denis Vinnie "Design is not just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works." Steve Jobs.... I still think he is turning over in his grave!�
Jun 29, 2012
Todd Burch No doubt that's a flush issue on the dolphin. But I don't think you can draw the same conclusion for the other cars with pictures taken a long way from the car.�
Jun 29, 2012
MikeK Linky fixy!
http://calacanis.joshontheweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/img00093-20090326-1310-scaled-1000.jpg
Sorry about that.�
Jun 29, 2012
MikeK I'll tell you what gives me hope (besides the fact that Tesla really does seem to be full of people who are committed to excellence!): I noticed in one of our forum members' photo albums on Flickr that they are doing what I interpret to be conformance checks of the stampings coming off the line. Rear quarter panels clamped into jigs and extensively marked up with the deviations from the intended tolerances.
So, this tells me that they are still dialing things in, and that we may see improvements before the line starts to accelerate.�
Jun 29, 2012
MikeK Indeed! That one is quite dramatic, isn't it? I'll tell you what it suggests to me. It suggests that a slight re-shaping of that hatch stamping could bring the edge inwards (towards the center) and downwards (toward the ground) by a few fractions of an inch, and that would probably nail both that shadow and the perceived gap from my photo.�
Jul 1, 2012
kave Long time reader, first time poster. Had my test drive in LA yesterday and loved the car. Having said that, the "gap" near the top of the trunk looks astonishingly bad. I had noted that same gap in a beta and was told "it's a result of the fact that the Betas were hand built". I really hope they do something to remedy this. If they don't, I am certain it will be something that the auto reviewers will point out as its too drastic to go un-noticed.�
Jul 1, 2012
cinergi Looks like the shadow to me is NOT cast by an alignment issue, but rather because the left pillar of the trunk lid is rounded -- it protrudes towards the sky.�
Jul 1, 2012
DrDave Do you think these were hand-built as well since the gap is still there?�
Jul 1, 2012
stopcrazypp That design doesn't work as well with the Model S (with the curves on the rear panel vs a more sedan-like break in the flow where the rear window meets the trunk lid). It'll also result in a much smaller trunk opening and rear window. Hopefully it's a fixable issue with the current design.�
Jul 1, 2012
doug This discussion reminds me of this commercial.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AktHnnA9QIM�
Jul 1, 2012
MikeK Was there a Tesla staffer asking for feedback at the end of your drive? There was in Fremont, and I told him I found the trunk fit disappointing. I hope other future owners who are bothered by this will be sure to tell Tesla directly. If Tesla hears this feedback from many drivers, it's bound to increase in importance.�
Jul 1, 2012
kave No one at the event asked for my feedback post mortem.
I did ask in advance if these were handmade cars or "full production" cars and was told they were early full production cars. I noted the Beta and the Crash Test car that were not available for test drive had the same issue (the Beta had several other fit issues as well likely from being hand assembled).�
Jul 1, 2012
MikeK FWIW, the feedback guy in Fremont was at the station where they did the photo printouts.�
Jul 2, 2012
dtich i had read this thread some days before my drive yesterday, but wasn't even looking for it, forgot all about the trunk thing.. and on the day it really stood out on many cars. my brother noticed it without prompting. definitely NOT an optical illusion. and definitely something they should tweak as soon as they can. i would say most of the cars had ill fitting trunk seams. and others. i do not want my car looking like that. i assume it's very fixable with a slight adjustment to the stamping.. but maybe not. it's pretty obvious and i wouldn't think quality control missed it. hopefully they're working on it.�
Jul 2, 2012
Right_Said_Fred If quality control missed this, then there isn't much quality control! The gaps around trunk and frunk are huge. I cannot imagine Franz von Holzhausen finds these kind of misalignments on his design acceptable.
I am driving one of the early Fisker Karma's and the trunk lid sticks out by about 0.5 inch, which is unacceptable for that price (but unfortunately cannot be changed anymore). I do not want the Tesla that will replace it to have the same kind of issues. If you have your own factory like Tesla has (Fikser does not) with your own machinery like Tesla has (Fisker has supplier A for the bumper, supplier B for the trunk lid, supplier C for the light casings), then all parts should fit perfectly. You cannot deliver cars with misaligned panels to paying customers.
* Edit: inch = 0.5 inch�
Jul 2, 2012
dtich well, that was exactly my point. i doubt that qc missed it, it is probably a more involved fix than we suppose.. so i'm being patient to see what gives. as you say, i wouldn't think fvh would sign off on a gap like that either...�
Jul 2, 2012
tdelta1000 I do not think TM is lacking in the QC department at all because TM has taken inventory of several items that will be fixed by the time the paying public get there cars.
Model S 001 and 002 were used as the yard stick going forward and small changes are foot. So, let's wait and see if TM really stand by the claim of having the best car in the world.�
Jul 2, 2012
kevincwelch I'm a little concerned about this quality control.
What do we know about the cars people have been test driving at the Amped Events? Are they full production models made with the robots in the plants and inspected? Were they made before or after the first ten cars released during the 6/22 kick off event?
If they are full production and made after the cars released on 6/22, then that suggests the cars released on 6/22 probably have these same defects in quality. Does Elon's car or Steve Jurvetson's car look like this?
Take a look at VIN #10 in http://www.youtube.com/embed/R0CBJQw5rvw. Pause at 34 seconds. Does this trunk look off? It's hard to tell.
So, in my opinion, this is a quality control issue. Now, perhaps it is just this one thing, but this one thing is very obvious. What other (hidden) things are not measured properly? What other unseen things will become seen?�
Jul 2, 2012
markb1 It looks pretty bad in this frame IMO:
I didn't notice this until this thread, but now I cannot unsee it. It really stood out on every car at the LA event yesterday.�
Jul 2, 2012
medved 
Way off, IMO.�
Jul 2, 2012
Todd Burch Complex manufacturing is an evolutionary process. Even if they were all produced on the line by production processes, there is going to be continual refinement (adjustment of robot positioning, modification of dies/molds, tweaking of processes, etc.). As we saw a dramatic improvement from betas to VIN #1, there will be a noticeable improvement from VIN #10 and beyond. That's just the way it is.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if the founder's cars had issues with gap and flush. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the founders knew their cars had these issues. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if they didn't care. Remember, they're all significantly vested in the company's success (and quite wealthy). I think of them almost as helping to test out the car for the rest of us. That's why I continue to believe that the ceremony for the handover of the cars was primarily symbolic. It's when the "regular" owners start getting their cars that these sorts of things will *really* matter.
My 2 cents.�
Jul 2, 2012
kevincwelch Comparing the two sides:
Harder to tell on the right side, but it looks better aligned. Plus, the pointed chrome window trim looks like it falls in the center of the joint on the left side and is more centered on the right.�
Jul 2, 2012
kevincwelch I understand your point, but you have to sell cars to regular owners first. I'm not saying this one issue is something that is going to stop me from purchasing a Model S, and I realize that production is an evolution, but we're not talking about a couple of stitches on the leather seats coming undone. This is the integrity of the fascia here.�
Jul 2, 2012
Todd Burch I'm not sure what you're saying here. The first cars were sold to founders--major investors in the company. How is it that cars have to be sold to regular owners first?
I agree there are definitely build quality issues. The reality is that we're also dealing with a new car company, a new factory, a new product, and a new line. You can't expect high end build quality right out of the gate. We'd all like that to be true, but it's just not going to happen.
Some ways back (maybe a year or two ago) someone posted here on TM Club that typically the first few hundred cars coming off the line have fairly visible issues like this--but most punch list items (the significant ones, at least) get worked out after that. I don't know what the actual numbers are, but that seems about right. That's why the initial rampup is so slow. For those first several hundred owners, if fit and finish issues are found, I would expect that Tesla will work those out individually (manually tweaking the fit or replacing parts as necessary). Obviously, it's not a viable business practice to have to make manual adjustments to every car that comes off the line, and as they evolve the cars will ween themselves off of the need for such a thing.
Will the first several hundred owners likely have a bit of an additional headache having adjustments made to fit and finish? Likely. But that's the cost of being the "pioneers".�
Jul 2, 2012
kevincwelch Good post.
I was basically implying that if the regular buyers see problems with the cars, they may not in fact buy the cars. (not that they should get them first in line)
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2�
Jul 2, 2012
Todd Burch Absolutely agree with you. Perception is important. After a while, it becomes extremely important. (Look at Toyota's reputation for manufacturing quality, for instance).
We just have to hope that people are understanding that this is still very early on in the production process.
Now if cars are rolling off the line a few months from now with issues like that, we ought to be really concerned. I expect Tesla's following this thread, acknowledging the issues, and attacking them hard (I sure hope so at least). So it may be that the bulk of these issues will be mostly improved even before Sig #1 rolls out the door.
After all, we know they're doing a lot of rework on the cupholders!�
Jul 2, 2012
CapitalistOppressor Personally, I think the gap in the trunk lid is a minor issue that wouldn't even get into my top 20 list of reasons for or against buying the car.
But there has been some question in the thread about what point the demo cars were manufactured and whether delivered cars have a gap or not. This video has a nice clip at the 30 second mark that shows both sides of the trunk and clearly shows a gap on the driver side of the car. This is an actual MS in the wild so I think its safe to assume that its a current build issue as of June 22, which also will include all of the demo cars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0CBJQw5rvw
It might be fixable on an existing car, or it might not. Saying it will be fixed during the low production QA phase and that cars in general production wont have this issue is just speculation. If the problem is in the stamping itself its probably not going to be fixed anytime soon, unlike issues with opportunity consoles which are basically molded plastic which are easy to rapidly change. Once you press metal you are basically stuck with what you got.
Stampings are a function of the dies used to stamp them. Tesla has expressed a surprising degree of interest in learning to make their own dies, but they do not have that capability as yet. So for now they have to rely on a supplier to provide dies and they don't have much control over how quickly they could obtain a new die or over the quality of the new die they order. The desire of Tesla to be able to make their own dies seems odd and uncommon for a car maker like Tesla, but issues like this show why they want to be even more vertically integrated. Tesla just can't count on suppliers who have existing customers and who likely don't see Tesla as a priority.
So anyone making a buy decision shouldn't count on this issue being fixed (though it might be). Whether an issue like that turns the car into a piece of garbage not worthy of being in your driveway is a personal decision.�
Jul 2, 2012
Tommy Keep in mind, Elon himself publicly stated a "perfectionist", his words not mine, would be pleased with the car's fit and finish. Is it not only fair that we keep our end of the bargain? :wink:�
Jul 2, 2012
kevincwelch I don't see anyone making any statements remotely this extreme. I simply state that some things can be the tip of the iceberg.�
Jul 2, 2012
sp4rk Well, lovely video ... I had not see it yet ... but I have to thank you for the "introduction" to Julia Othmer. Never heard of her but wow, what a voice and sound. Add her to my mpeg player list. Not often that I hear something I like that much ... last was UK newcomer Emeli Sande ... ok, completely off topic!�
Jul 2, 2012
jomo25 I'll want to see it myself. But its not on my top 10 either. Even if it was, I'm sure its fixable. My guess is they'll address it on future builds on the line (this among other minor things may be why there is a pause between the founder's and rest of sig/prod units) and also offer to do some sort of fix/replacement on any that are/were built prior to the line fix.
If they can/will retroactively install motorized folding mirrors, I would think this is as simple or a simpler fix/replacement.�
Jul 2, 2012
Robert.Boston This is the "must-see / show-to-friends" video for now. I especially love the fifteen seconds starting at 1:32.�
Jul 3, 2012
VolkerP I think this thread is starting to talk things way out of proportion.
Tesla has a pretty advanced milling machine on site to do minor adjustments to the stamping dies. And all car manufacturers that produce high quality car bodies with nice panel gaps have manual steps in the process. Gotta find a video of these body experts as they treat a painted car body with foam-wrapped hammers: Bang here, ding there, door is flush. Awesome!
If a car fails panel fitting QC, there are several ways to go on. a) scrap it. Waste of money. b) fix it. Time consuming. c) finish the car to earn feedback on the whole production process. Remember, this is the most crucial thing to do for Tesla right now.
If Tesla chose c), they have a drivable car that might not be sell-able to signature or general production customers. They can use it to train their production and sales team, use it in customer/press test drives, or sell it to the founders.
All these decisions are in the best way of Tesla's financial and production interests and suit me fine. Well, I'm not a Founder :wink:�
Jul 3, 2012
tdelta1000 This photo is evident that there is a misalignment of the rear deck.�
Jul 3, 2012
spatterso911 I think this more than adequately explains the disparity. I'm sure Tesla is all over it, and may have let these slide as tester cars. I am still surprised, however, that the Founder cars slipped through their QC process with this...�
Jul 3, 2012
W8MM You don't think the Founders can get their cars fixed at a later date for free?�
Jul 3, 2012
Beavis That assumes that it was closed all the way. Recall that his mother in law was in there and it may not have been fully latched. Use a different pic for evidence, like the many pics of Jurvison's car, which also show a gap that is wider than it should be but not as pronounced to my eye.�
Jul 3, 2012
AnOutsider Or the many taken at the test drive events, or, even the ones way back in this thread: Panel Lines/Gaps on White Silver Model S's�
Jul 3, 2012
MikeK I'm willing to believe (c) above, but the thing is, the cars that are at the test drives are also future owners' first experiences with "production" vehicles.
Tesla has been forthcoming about the consoles, acknowledged that they're working on something new, and asked for feedback. That forthrightness has the effect of allaying concerns about interior utility among customers.
If Tesla does consider the trunk fit an issue that they intend to address, then it would be in their interests to do the same: acknowledge that the fit is not as it should be, and is being worked on.
I did ask a Tesla person at the Fremont event about the fit, and their comment was, essentially, that they didn't know anything specific about it, but that there was certainly tweaking and adjustment happening during the initial ramp. It would be nice to hear something more direct than that, though.�
Jul 3, 2012
Todd Burch Clearly we can understand why most (if not all) other car companies keep the cars under wraps or tight supervision until they're going to "reg'lar payin' folk".
Frankly, I'm glad that Tesla is transparent enough to let us see the car before it's going to regular customers. It's refreshing.
Now Tesla, go tighten up those gaps and flush out those panels!�
Jul 3, 2012
brianman This is the kind of thing that can be calmed significantly with a two sentence mention in one of the Inside blog posts. Something I hope they do, so the forum can find something else to nitpick.�
Jul 3, 2012
Beavis My point was that the those other cars are betas or RCs. The only pics I've seen of a customer's car with a verifiable gap (where there is no other explanation than it's a fit & finish issue) is Jurvison's.�
Jul 3, 2012
MikeK The test drive cars were supposed to be production, no?�
Jul 3, 2012
spatterso911 I think they absolutely will, and are likely participating in a usage and quality survey to improve the cars coming down the line.�
Jul 3, 2012
Beavis Made on the production line, yes. Final representation of exactly what the Sig's will get? No.�
Jul 3, 2012
Todd Burch "Production" can mean "made on the production line", but it can also mean "final design".
As kroneal pointed out, Production car #1 and production car #100 are typically noticably different with regard to fit and finish.�
Jul 3, 2012
MikeK Fingers crossed! Hey, Todd, what color is the Model S in your avatar? Looks like a sort of light blue. I wish Tesla would do a color like that. I've seen photos of an Aston Martin Rapide in a bright blue and it was really pretty.�
Jul 4, 2012
Todd Burch It's actually a Photoshop job from their gray (silver?) gallery pic from before I saw the real blue in pictures...and back when I wanted the blue. Now it's gray or black for me.�
Jul 4, 2012
jerry33 I like that bright blue too. I'd much rather have that or a bright green then the starlight silver.�
Jul 4, 2012
KBF I recall reading that Musk and Jurvetson were going over their cars to find every little problem, even the ones that "the average customer wouldn't notice". They had mentioned that they already had a lengthy list. I read this shortly after their cars were delivered, but can't recall the source. Paging TEG... or other search engine wizards!�
Jul 4, 2012
AnOutsider I believe it was in the vin #1 thread.�
Jul 4, 2012
MikeK Excellent. That's just what they should do. Happy to hear it!�
Jul 4, 2012
dsm363 Looks like you are correct. engle references that thread with this post.
Random Model S sightings
�
Jul 4, 2012
MikeK Well, given that a fair number of normal customers and guests noticed the trunk fit, here's hoping it's already being refined!�
Jul 4, 2012
brianman For those that want a link to the actual post...
�
Jul 4, 2012
Todd Burch Good point. The test drive cars were probably built around the same time as Musk/Jurvetson's cars. This means the 100 or so punch list items were likely not fixed by the time the test drive cars were manufactured...which means we can be fairly confident many of the issues we saw in the test drive cars won't be in Sig #1.
In fact, I think that's the main reason for this delay between the founder deliveries and the first sig delivery.�
Jul 4, 2012
AnOutsider Yup, though we know at least the interiors were revamped with the opportunity consoles�
Jul 4, 2012
malcolm While we're waiting for a fix for this, here's a little light reading on the subject of Aluminium Pressing
http://www.ijest.info/docs/IJEST10-02-10-104.pdf�
Jul 5, 2012
medved Interesting. So maybe the wrong alignment of trunk is cased by spring back effect of aluminium sheet?�
Jul 5, 2012
W8MM Quite likely. Here's hoping that after it's tuned in, it doesn't drift with tool wear or change batch-to-batch as different lots of aluminum sheet are delivered.�
Jul 5, 2012
KBF Thanks for the paper, Malcolm. I didn't realize working with aluminum was so complicated!�
Jul 6, 2012
malcolm Are panel problems more prevalent on Aluminium vehicles? I have no idea if Tesla has recruited/is recruiting specific expertise in this area.
Didn't Chrysler use aluminium for the Plymouth Prowler?�
Jul 6, 2012
Sig698 Both the Mitsubishi Evo and Acura NSX came with aluminum body panels and neither of them were known to have any sort of body panel fitment problems at all. Not sure about the prowler, but I wouldn't expect any Chrysler product to rate very well in the build quality dept.�
Jul 6, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Both the Evo and the previous NSX are relatively boxy, aren't they? Lots of straight lines, atleast where panels meet. Might be easier than the super curvy S?!�
Jul 6, 2012
Denis Vinnie Audi A8 are built of aluminum...fit and finish is outstanding!�
Jul 6, 2012
Johann Koeber Yes, and Audi has plenty years experience with aluminium (please excuse my british accent)�
Jul 7, 2012
WhiteKnight This is the wrong thread (sorry I don't know how to cross-post) but those cars "appeared" to have the same panel gap issues as the other cars. I say "appeared" because it's hard to tell anything without seeing it in person.�
Jul 7, 2012
spatterso911 I don't see the famed rear-hatch fit issue though...�
Jul 7, 2012
jerry33 The video doesn't really show the hatch panel lines all that much. The longest section at about 35-40 seconds doesn't show the gap at all. The one at 13 seconds might show it a bit but it's very quick and after watching it repeatedly I can see it a bit--but it might be the camera angle/illusion. Someone needs to do a video covering just that aspect.�
Jul 8, 2012
Robert.Boston {OT aside: a contestant on Jeopardy once lost a pile of money when she gave as her question, "Aluminium Company of America". ALCOA was indeed correct, but she lost because it's a company name and not the name of the metal (which they would have accepted in either the British or American variant).}�
Jul 8, 2012
FlasherZ When I looked at the back ends of the cars at Seattle, I can say there were no obvious alignment issues that I could see. I was looking for them but didn't see anything. Maybe I'm not as much of a perfectionist, or they've tightened them up a bit...�
Jul 9, 2012
EarlyAdopter I noticed it a bit on the blue car today, but only because I was explicitly looking for it. Even with it a bit off, it really wasn't a big deal. I don't think you'd notice it unless someone pointed it out, and even then it wasn't like "oh, that looks terrible."
Once I saw it and thought no big deal, I didn't even bother to look for it on the other cars.
This is really much ado about nothing, in my book, as they will no doubt get this dialed in and taken care of in short order (if not already as we speak).�
Jul 16, 2012
MikeK Two conflicting comments from me on this issue.
1) I was at the Palo Alto event this weekend, and the panel fit on the cars that were there (which I think were a subset of the cars we saw in Fremont) were pretty good. I noticed some fit issues with the rear passenger door of the Catalina White car, and a slight trunk misalignment on the blue car, but they were "okay".
Here are two photos of the Catalina White door to illustrate my point. In the first photo, notice how the gap appears uneven. In the second photo, you can see that the gap is much wider at the top of the door, as the door curves back towards the window. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that the door is slightly lower than it should be, which makes the top gap wider while squeezing the gap too close on the lower part of the door.
2) On my drive to work today, I passed a Porsche Panamera. I noticed that it has a rear lift very similar to the Model S, including having a visible seam with a complex curve in it. The fit was outstanding, with no "optical illusion" weird gapping depending upon your viewing angle. It's clearly possible to do this really well. I hope Tesla is continuing to work on it. Here's a photo I found on Autoblogcar.com:
�
Jul 16, 2012
VolkerP Yes but it has 4 gaping holes below the rear bumper - I find these really offending.�
Jul 16, 2012
MikeK �
Jul 16, 2012
brianman In the Panamera picture, what's the purpose of the seam coming out of the tail lights?�
Jul 16, 2012
MikeK If you mean the one going towards the wheel well, I think that's the separation between sheet metal and the plastic bumper cover.�
Jul 25, 2012
medved Tesla Motors' CEO Discusses Q2 2012 Results - Earnings Call Transcript
Now I am more at ease.�
Jul 25, 2012
AustinPowers I see I have something in common with Elon after all. I'm a perfectionist too, and if Tesla really manages to build the Model S to the standards that Elon has specified here (and I'm sure, in his mind he has compared the Model S to the Audi in his garage in terms of fit and finish), then I am VERY at ease.
Especially if after eliminating the exterior fit and finish issues Tesla also manages to achieve a similar level of quality on the interior (missing options / strange mandatory combinations are a different issue though).�
Jul 25, 2012
malcolm Thanks for this quote Medved. Glad to know that Tenacious E is focussed on it.�
Jul 26, 2012
tray loader Elon seems on track:
2012/07/25 Q2 2012 QA Conf Call notes�
Jul 26, 2012
MikeK Well, that quote is just excellent.�
Jul 27, 2012
MikeK Just stumbled across something interesting completely by accident. Have a look at this video and skip to 3:46. This is a beta car at Santana Row back in October, apparently. Look how much tighter the tolerances are on the trunk of this car, compared to all the cars we're seeing today! This is how the trunk should look, I think, and I hope this is what Elon is talking about when he says that they're working to improve the fit. Hopefully by the time we see Signatures rolling off the line, this is what we'll be seeing.
This video is also fascinating if you ever wondered how in the heck they get the cars into the tight spaces in a showroom.
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Jul 27, 2012
AnOutsider Weren't these still hand built back then? I agree though, I'd like to see those lines back (heck, I even notice the body lines less)�
Jul 27, 2012
contaygious Yeah looks great and the lines on the side are more pronounced, hope they can pull it off!�
Jul 27, 2012
MikeK In fairness to Tesla, look how far we've come since the early Beta prototypes:
(This was at the Model X & Signature Colors event at Santana Row in March.)�
Jul 30, 2012
MikeK I made an inquiry with one of the Tesla product specialists, and passed along some screen shots from that Santana row video, along with my photos from Palo Alto, and asked whether the customer-delivered cars will be more like the Santana Row video, or more like the Get Amped cars. Here's his response, which he said I was welcome to share:
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Jul 30, 2012
contaygious Thanks for checking! Crossing my fingers...�
Jul 30, 2012
theganjaguru Greetings. Longtime reader.
My 2cents... After glancing through this thread no one has measured the tolerance of the alleged gaps between panels with any scientific instrument, or even a piece of paper for that matter.... Everything I've read thus far is subjective to interpretations as you are all relying on your easily fooled eyes.... What you guys are noticing as "poor alignment" is most likely an optical illusion.. I was talking with an older friend last night about this and he explained a similar thing with the Ford Edsel. While the panels of the car were engineered within acceptable tolerances, many critics of the vehicle "thought" it was poorly put together due to optical illusions... I think that is what people are seeing.. I think it would be best to hold off assumptions of build quality until someone can actually measure tolerances with a real measuring device...�
Jul 30, 2012
Robert.Boston Good advice. Maybe bring a largish (~8mm) ball bearing and replicate the original Lexus commercials, rolling the bearing down the seams (which would only work for the trunk and frunk seams, but that's where we have the greatest concerns).�
Jul 30, 2012
cinergi Some of the complaints *absolutely* are optical illusions. Some are not. Both types are quite visible in the videos of me walking around the cars during the NY event.�
Jul 30, 2012
MikeK I agree with you that some of what we've seen is optical illusion. For example, the somewhat odd-looking gap on the sloped section of the C pillar has a lot to do with the way that surface twists from a primarily vertical orientation to a largely horizontal orientation. That means that the gap itself is seen "face on" on the sloped section, but "edge on" on the back section, when viewing the car from the side. Fair enough.
But I would encourage you to view that Santana Row video, and then look at any photo of a white Model S from any of the Get Amped events. It's trivially easy to see without any measuring equipment whatsoever that the gaps around the trunk are substantially larger on the Get Amped cars than in the video. That's not an optical illusion. At all.
As well, if you look at this photo I took in Palo Alto, under the left tail light, you can clearly see that the panel isn't flush to the adjacent panel (look at the shadow). That's not an optical illusion. It's a real alignment problem, although I think the angle of the light is accentuating it. That problem is one that I'm certain they'll fix, so it doesn't really concern me -- my point is just that not everything that is being discussed here is so subjective that we need measuring tools to be sure it's real.
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Jul 30, 2012
MikeK One thing to add: I think some of the optical illusions are likely to improve when the real issues are addressed. For example, if the gap around the trunk were a bit tighter, I suspect that the illusion on the sloping C pillar will be diminished, since the appearance of the "face on" gap will be closer to the appearance of the "edge on" gap.�
Jul 30, 2012
Tommy And regarding optical illusions: No matter what an instrument says regarding tolerances/alignment, it is the eye that must be satisfied. Case in point, if you have ever wall papered, you learn pretty quickly to lay the vertical lines parallel to door jams irregardless if the door jams are perfectly plum or not. To do otherwise,(perfectly plum wall paper, slightly out of plum door jam), the eye will quickly see the job as poorly done.�
Jul 30, 2012
cinergi Agreed on last two posts -- but I will say that photos and videos make the illusions look worse than in person. Of course, there's still a perception issue if the photos look bad (which people are using to evaluate the car).�
Jul 31, 2012
brianman If it looks great IRL and bad in photos, then just retouch the photos and call it a day. Works for models...�
Aug 23, 2012
MikeK Elon's most recent tweet photo has me a bit anxious. Note the two silver cars:
I saw this Lexus randomly on the road last night. I was hoping we'd be more like the trunk gaps on this car by now:
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![[?IMG]](https://p.twimg.com/A06kBYpCYAIlMH-.jpg:large)
Aug 23, 2012
hvb Are you worried that the gaps are too large or are misaligned? They look fine to me.�
Aug 23, 2012
onlinespending I'd say too large. Notice how much more noticeable they are vs. the door gaps? Of course the angle isn't entirely fair, since it'd be harder to recognize the door gaps anyways. But they could certainly be improved upon.�
Aug 23, 2012
MikeK The gap appears to me to be disproportionately large. Certainly on some of the earlier Get Amped cars, it was much larger than any of the other door or hood gaps on the car.�
Aug 23, 2012
SwedishAdvocate I don't claim to be an expert in any way, but it seems to me that the photo of the Lexus is kind of a lot more high quality than the photo of those Teslas. Couldn't it in this case with regards to the photo of the Teslas, just be an unfortunate combination of blurredness/lack of focus and also perhaps a less than optimal jpeg (or what not) algorithm?
I'm not trying to suggest that the gap* around the trunk of those Teslas are as small as the gap* of that Lexus, just that the difference perhaps isn't as big as these two photos seem to suggest.
*When I originally posted I used the word alignment which probably was a mistake on my part. Sorry for that. (I'm only Swedish)... :redface:�
Aug 23, 2012
MikeK I don't think it's the photographic process. It may, however, be a particularly unflattering angle. I notice in reviewing my own videos from the recent Palo Alto event that a rear-quarter view seems to make the gap look its largest. Here are two shots of the same car to illustrate. I think on the angle, you maybe see more deeply into the seam, so it looks darker. These two pictures aren't the best, and you really sort of have to see them full size rather than the scaled-down version inlined here.
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Aug 23, 2012
Krugerrand You guys have no idea what you're talking about. There are three shapings in the Tesla hatch vs a straight Lexus trunk. The gapping is consistent through the entire seam, which is the important point. If you prefer tight gapping, then go ahead and buy the shapeless rear-ended Lexus.�
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