Thứ Tư, 4 tháng 1, 2017

Announcement of new Model S June 9th part 2

  • Jun 9, 2016
    RogerHScott
    Can you elaborate on what you see as the relevant distinction between "content" and "capability"?
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    X Yes?
    Wow, Big Brother really is here!
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    Ulmo
    Doesn't matter, that much; they already have a 300 mile version out there, which they never had in the S/X platform before. If you're looking for round numbers, let me suggest that a 325 mile range, 1000/3 mile range (333), 350 mile range, 375 mile range, or a 400 mile range are cooler "round numbers" than 100KWh battery pack (except when you're tailgating a Tesla and staring at the badge with jealousy), especially that 400 mile range point. Half a thousand miles will also be another cool number. Let's say they get that out of an 80KWh battery pack; will you be complaining? Or, from a 65KWh battery pack? (I know the physics doesn't work out, but I'm just asking from a perspective of marketing.)
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    Ulmo
    Hmm. The many "dislikes" on this poster made me afraid to post. I am also a pro-improved AP hardware opinion person as the right path for the company, so I appreciate some of Reeler's remarks, but the rebuttals also have merit. It's just one of those sucky things about life: what's available now is just what is available now, and at some point, now is good enough.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    DiamondDave
    So Tesla just beats the magic 200 mile range with the 60. That might tempt some Model 3 reservation holders who planned to add a lot of options.

    It may also entice people considering a Chevy Bolt. Its base price will be around $37,500 (Chevy says as low as $30k after tax credits) but once you add some options that make it more like the 60, how close will the price difference be?
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    travwill
    Perhaps slip someone with that database access a nice $100 or so to flip that DB entry to 75 instead of 60 ;-) is a better approach.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    TexasEV
    Tesla just beat the magic 200 mile range with the 60 in 2013. Nothing new here except the price is lower than when I bought my 60 three years ago.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    travwill
    True, but it is a pain and advised against charging to 100% so 90% which is typical really just nets a good 189 rated range miles?

    Someone needs to test these new batteries to see if they are sitting with the unactivated portion charged, or uncharged. If charged it should slow when charging to a crawl to 100%, but if the 15kWh difference is not being used, should get up to 100% quite easy/fast still and not be a big deal to charge to 100% on a regular basis, so you really can get that 200+ rated miles stated.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    Ulmo
    You carry around a higher margin product with you from time of purchase, that if you want to activate, you buy. For now, you have a lower margin product. Tesla marketing analytics figured out this will net Tesla a higher overall financially better position over time, regardless of the individual margin on the lower-end vehicles. They will recoup higher margins as people upgrade, either original owners or CPO, they are hoping, and/or, they are hoping, they will recoup higher margins overall through quantity, and/or this is some more complicated strategy that includes increasing the number of Tesla's in the marketplace that isn't just near term margin-specific. Or, as bears are pointing out, perhaps they're lowering their margin because of demand. I would hardly call this a huge lowering; Tesla has been increasing its prices for quite a while now. Also, perhaps they're lowering their margin from more than enough to enough --- their margin was too high, leaving too much business on the table. We're not in possession of the numbers, so it's hard to know if they're laughing all the way to the bank or just doing what they have to do to do very well.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    Pollux
    You, sir, are giving early adopters a good name!

    I admit that I'd like to squeeze more dollars out of the resale value of my '13 P85+, but when as you point out Tesla is reducing the cost on this model and building a better car as well... maybe they will do the same across the equivalent for the P/P+ line. That'd be great!

    Alan
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    FlatSix911
    This makes sense from a Sales and Marketing standpoint as Model S sales were actually starting to slip in 2Q16.

    upload_2016-6-9_14-3-19.png

    I agree :cool:
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    Saghost
    Well, we obviously won't know for certain until a new S60 gets out in the wild - but we know that the software locked S40s had the top portion locked off. I'd expect to see the same again - which would mean that 100% charging the new S60 would happen quickly and be perfectly safe for longevity.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    Rifleman
    As the owner of 2 "Classic" 60's, I am happy to see the 60 return. The new price point is great, and and I am happy to see that supercharging is included (even though I paid extra for it on mine). Hopefully this will get some Bolt and Model 3 buyers to make the leap to Model S.

    I do feel that including the unlimited mile warranty on the new 60, when the classic 60 only has a 125,000 mile warranty does really hurt our resale value though. It sends a message that Tesla does not have the same faith in the classic 60's that is has in the rest of the Model S line. It would be great it Tesla would extend all model S power train warranty's to 8 years/unlimited miles. It would be a great way to help the 40/60 owners keep their resale value up, and would in reality cost Tesla very little. Of course, I doubt that would ever happen.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    X Yes?
  • Jun 9, 2016
    newtman
    Considering they were retooling the factory for the refresh for a good chunk of Q2, not too surprising.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    3mp_kwh
    Pretty sure this is incorrect. I agree with others. I think it was 75,XXX, and defaulted to the D model. Selecting RWD, or -$5,000, dropped to $70,XXX, or $71,XXX. This is for the refreshed version, during June. Maybe someone has a cashed page, someplace? The point is, most of us recognize a price increase for the 75kwh car (66k + 8.5k, for RWD).
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    xav-
    Still twice as much as a model 3, and now range is worse. I am not sure many will be willing to spend $9,000 for upgrade, especially once the $35k model 3 comes out.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    xav-
    I saw a $5200 saving for the 60 over the 70. Then they want $9000 extrA for the 75. It used to be $3k extra to upgrade to the 75. I agree with you they raised the price. This is all good stuff for Teslas bottom line, but as a prospecting buyer of a 70 I am not sure I find the savings worth it.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    p85lover/owner
    How much do you think you want to get for it? I might be interested in buying.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    PeterB
    This announcement certainly explains all the 60kW CPO cars that turned up a couple months ago. Definitely best to clear out that inventory ahead of the new model.

    As for the Model S demand comments a few posts ago, keep in mind the North American deliveries are always softer in the first couple months of the quarter as Tesla builds cars for other markets to allow for shipping lead time. The last month of every quarter sees huge increases in US deliveries.

    My store is between the freeway exit and Tesla's Seattle delivery center and there have been a steady stream of trucks delivery new cars all week and their lot is jammed packed with cars awaiting delivery.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    bucksport
    in a discussion with tesla sales, they indicate that always charging @100% will affect your warranty if you should have early battery degradation. I guess big brother is watching how often to charge and at what percentage. Hope I'm wrong.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    Oyinko
    I'm wondering what will happen if you run out of battery with this new 60KW? Because the pack is a 75KW, maybe the S will go into a degraded mode and limit the speed to 20mph until you deplete the remaining 15KW portion of the pack?
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    Saghost
    Was that in connection with the new 60 specifically?

    For 99% of the cars they've delivered, that makes perfect sense. The available evidence suggests it won't make sense for the refreshed S60.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    Reeler
    Margin is on top not bottom. Might be nice to put a little on the bottom for this feature.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    brkaus
    What happens with insurance? Car value jumps up with the incremental purchase?
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    kmtl
    Sure, the D has specific content (parts and software) that does not exist in the rear motor only car...and is more capable because of that content. In that case the value associated with the additional cost is evident. Additionally, the car costs more to produce, so it makes sense that it costs more to buy.
    I understand the market position of the 60, but it's got a whiff of b.s. to it.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    xav-
    Because the 70 is gone.. yes I save 5 grand but the range is significantly impacted. The 9 grand upgrade also is too expensive, and will definitely seems way too expensive once the $35k before tax incentive model 3 with better range hits the road!
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    xav-
    I am impatient but I hope something better. I can't imagine how much this is going to be worth once the model 3 hits the road. I know some say "it's not the same car", "it's luxury" etc but we are not talking about a high end model S with ludicrous mode here, we are talking of the lowest end mode with a range lower than the model 3.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    xav-
    I guess at some point we will be able to jailbreak it but then what will happen to battery warranty?
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    neroden
    I think that's how Tesla's going to collect the 'upgrade fees' -- some people will jailbreak their batteries but it'll void the warranty, and most people won't want to void the warranty. Lots of people will probably jailbreak the cars after the 8 year warranty is up, but does Tesla really care at that point? Probably not.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    FlatSix911
    I think you answered your question ... the jailbreak will be common after the warranty expires.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    e-FTW
    I am a huge AWD fan (from decades of driving in Canada), but frankly, I don't get why more people don't get the "non-D" base models. Why not use that money for a few other goodies? Cool color, wheels, pano roof, etc...
    Rear-wheel drive cars are pretty good in 2016. Especially this one!

    One often reads that "luxury-car buyers expect to have all-wheel drive". I am the bargain basement guy around here I guess!
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    BEEZR
    It's been called Autopilot Convenience Features for some time -- several months since I've been tracking.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    xav-
    In 8 years? :)
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    BEEZR
    Well, in any product line you always pay more for additional features. They have R&D costs to develop the battery technology and they have a pricepoint to protect. They're not in the business to give you something for nothing.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    omarsultan
    If you are looking at pure performance, sure, but with a 0-60 of 5.5 sec and a 210 mile range, its pretty close to the Model 3 specs, with more room and a hatchback, which might be more important to some folks. Until the Model 3 pricing is out, its going to be hard to tell what the true pricing delta between cars is.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    RogerHScott
    If you're including software in "content" then the upgrades -- which involve changing the software -- are content as well as capability.
    If it turns out to be more cost-effective (in some weird, complicated way) for Tesla to physically deliver unused content to you before
    you choose to pay to realize the capability it enables, why does that bother you?
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    Cstreet
    I just finishing ordering my 60 just now! I was actually planning on getting a loaded Bolt later this year but I started looking at some MS CPOs. This change got me off the fence and into a MS. Now I just have to wait for my car!
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    RogerHScott
    New or CPO?
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    BEEZR
    So now do I have a dilemma? Put a $1000 deposit on a CPO S60 last month but still awaiting delivery. Car has been shipped so I'm obligated to pay the $1500 shipping if I decide to walk away or move my deposit to another car... Do I stay the course on the 2-year-old 60 or consider ordering a new one?

    CPO (P34xxx), built 3/2014, 51K miles, $89,520 new; priced at $51,800 plus $1500 shipping is $53,300 plus tax.
    Blue Metallic Paint (darker, discontinued), Pano, Tan Nappa, Premium Interior Lighting, Parking Sensors, Fog Lamps, 19", Obeche, Tech Pkg, UHFS, Smart Air, Supercharging, Paint Armor

    Building a 60 outfitted similarly is $77,250 plus tax. Minus $7500 tax credit, so roughly $70,000 net.
    60 RWD, Multi-Pattern Seats, Premium Upgrades ($3000), Smart Air ($2500), UHFS ($2500),

    Nice to have:
    Add $2500 for Next Gen seats
    Add $2500 for Autopilot Convenience Features

    I could forego air suspension (subtract $2500), so nets at $73,500.

    The AP is very nice, no doubt, but I don't know if that plus the unlimited mileage battery warranty and a few other upgrades are worth $20,000 to me. And when my Model 3 reservation comes up I may trade/sell the S at that time... If I buy the new car and then move to the 3 in two years I'll take a huge hit on depreciation, much less on the CPO car.

    I think I answered my own question, but always interested to hear the collective wisdom of this board.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    RogerHScott
    BEEZR, how sure are you that you'll want to go from an S to a 3? If you're fairly sure you'll want to do that, you could go the
    lease route (rather than the path of lease resistance? ;)) Other than that, it sounds like you've got a pretty sweet (CPO) 60 coming
    your way. If it were me, I think it would drive me crazy to be tooling around in a new 60 that could have AP but didn't, so I'd have
    to build the AP-enablement price into the cost of the new 60, but YMMV. I can tell you that the next-gen seats are fabulous, but I
    know nothing about the alternative.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    mshuang
    I made a spreadsheet of the prices and options. During post-facelift:

    Upgrade to 75 kWh - 3250 (OTA) or 3,000 at Purchase. AWD add 5000.

    70 (RWD) $71,500.
    70D (AWD) $76,500
    75 (RWD) 74,500
    75D (AWD) 79,500

    Today's Pricing changes the upgrade from 60 to 75, but the overall pricing remains the same.
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    xav-
    Are premium sound system and premium package really worth it? Then did you take into consideration the $1,000 referral credit?

    My understanding is that the smart air suspension is not worth it especially with the 19 inch wheels but could be mistaken.

    Personally especially after reading some of the really bad reviews on reliability and the high cost of repairs I would feel much better buying something brand new and potentially consider buying an extended warranty (and having the piece of mind for 5 or 6 years)

    I am not sure depreciation will be worse. I would expect tesla to give you a lot more money on a 2016 model s with a 75 KW battery / hardware autopilot than a 2013 60 KW with many many miles.

    Personally looking into 70 or 60 rwd as well.. Facing the same challenges as you do.. good luck
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  • Jun 9, 2016
    Cstreet
    New! I love the new front. I went with the next gen seats, autopilot, and upgraded paint.

    I rented a 2015 a few weeks ago with autopilot and it was great. I was just going back and forth on the seats but after trying both prefer the next gen ones.
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    modamoda
    Release of 60kWh model is brilliant idea! I think it is Tesla's strategy for oversea sales. Some countries have tough tax incentive qualifications.
    For example, South Korea government do not offer tax incentive for high-capacity-battery models like 90D while Toyota Prius and BMW i3 can get incentive. Why? because EV over 70 kWh is not incentive-qualified. (kinda stupid regulation)

    They will be able to buy* Model S 60 with tax incentive(up to 20k USD equivalent), and can unlock 75kWh upgrade after purchase.


    * Tesla Korea does not sell cars currently, but they are in process of certification.
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    ggnykk
    I thought Tesla slowed down deliveries of cars in April and May coz of the Model X issues. I remember reading somewhere that Model S deliveries was slowed down as well somehow. Remember this table is NOT showing number of orders, just deliveries.
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    ggnykk
    If you get the 75kwh battery upgrade, you are charging to 80% or 90% most of the time anyway in order to supercharge faster as well as protecting the battery. If you charge 80%, that means you use 60kwh of the battery, which obviously mean it bring you back down to the 60 Model S.

    In other words, Tesla's latest move basically allow customers to buy a 75kwh cars for $8500 USD less money. The user isn't losing anything here.
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    ggnykk
    The "legacy" 60 Model S supercharge a LOT slower than this new 60 Model S for sure. The new 60 car actually has 75kwh battery software limited to 60 kwh. If you use a lot of supercharger, it is a massive difference.
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    AustinPowers
    Has anyone got this data for Gemany?
    I can't remember exactly, but it looks as if the new 60 base model is more expensive than the old 70 base model? Doesn't seem to make sense.

    Current numbers:

    60 (RWD) 76,600 Euro (~86,500 USD)
    60D (AWD) 82,100 Euro (~92,500 USD)
    75 (RWD) 86,000 Euro (~97,000 USD)
    75D (AWD) 91,500 Euro (~103,500 USD)

    Those are really hefty prices imho. Especially considering they are for the "naked" bare bones base model with absolutely no options.
    I remember when you could get a well equipped 85 for less than 100k Euro. And I thought falling battery prices were supposed to make EV prices cheaper over time. Confused.
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    deonb
    Assuming Tesla use same implementation for the 60/75 is as the 40/60 (which of course they might not, but this is the only precedent we have right now to look at):

    a) The battery slider will show the full layout of the 75 battery, but you won't be able to move it past the 80% mark.
    b) You'll never see a 100% charged (all green) battery indicator - the top 20% will always be black
    c) Charging to max on the new 60 would be at same curve as charging to 80% on the 75. So, significantly faster than charging to 100% on the old 60.
    d) You have a 20% battery degradation buffer - BUT you'll see something that looks like degradation:

    There is this still unsettled issue that if you keep charging a battery to mid ranges, it will start showing a phantom range loss. You can "fix" this by doing an empty to 100% charge for the battery for a day or so long, and it will regain those lost miles. You can attribute this to battery balancing, or simply the software having to re-calibrate, but point is, it requires an occasional 0% -> 100% charge to fix. Now, of course, in a 60/75 you won't be able to do a charge to 100% so it may actually show MORE losses than a 75 charged to 90%. However, the service center will do a 100% fix-up charge for you once a year during service if you ask them to.


    Again, even though I wrote the above in the tense of "this is how the 60/75 will work", it is really based on the 40/60. So this might end up being different in one or more ways.
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    dfluker
    I received my 75D two weeks ago. The upgrade from the 70D was a total waste.

    They tell you to limit the charge to 90% for the "health of the battery" which is basically the equivalent of charging the 70D to 100%

    I can't believe they haven't increased the performance of the 75D, it should absolutely be marginally faster than the 60D or 70D.

    I feel like I was totally ripped off but very happy with the car other than this.

    I think everyone with a 75D would feel better about paying for the upgrade if it also came with a slight increase to the 0 to 60.... Something just below 5 seconds which we know is possible if the 85D could do 4.4 seconds with same motors.
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    RogerHScott
    You are sure to love it.
    Living in Palo Alto, you'll no longer be the oddball on your block not driving a Tesla ;)
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    thx1139
    Cant agree. Drove from Chicago to Florida and back at the end of December. 95% of the time on Auto-Pilot. Was so much easier and less stressful. I also find it a god send in bumper to bumper highway traffic during Chicago rush hours. My legs feel much better at the end of the commute and my mind is not nearly as stressed. That isnt a gimmick that is something that really works.
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    xav-
    congrats, I have such a hard time doing like you. I don't think the bolt is worth it, too expensive for what it really is.. Maybe as a lease. It will likely be day and night with your model s.
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    boofagle
    My gut tells me they'll eventually allow you to have "temporary unlocks" on a pay-per-use basis and this might be the pilot program for the same situation with the Model 3. It allows buy in at a lower price and the ability to "unlock" extra watts for the occasional long trip which could allow a person to skip a supercharger or 2. It would be well worth it for Tesla in order to ease SC congestion once they start making 500k+ cars a year vs having a bunch of lower kWh cars that need to hit each SC on a trip in order to get to where they're planning on going.
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    RogerHScott
    As nice as that sounds (from the perspective of a Tesla customer), I can't see a business reason for them to do that.
    Pay-for-use rarely generates as much revenue as pay-just-in-case-you-might-use.
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    boofagle
    True, but they're putting the 75s in anyway which may never be unlocked to their full potential. I believe people on the fence about purchasing an EV due to "range anxiety" and the expense of more range would more than likely still purchase one knowing that if they ever needed the extra kWh they have them as opposed to not buying at all and sticking with gas. More car sales > a possible upgrade purchase.

    Also, there's still the issue of SC congestion and the possible relief this could bring. It gets bad press when it happens and that alone might be worth doing this from a business perspective.
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    FlatSix911
    Perfect... as my wife and friends say, Tesla is the Palo Alto Camry! :cool:
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    modamoda
    Some countries do not offer tax-incentive for high-battery-capacity EVs. But with 60, customers in such country are now able to buy with tax incentive and unlock later. Which is cheaper then buying 75 without incentive.
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    ggnykk
    Not really true. The top 10 to 20% of the battery charge extremely slow, very very few people wait for that. When you buy the new 60 kwh Model S. It is basically a software limited 75 kwh at 80%. Getting the new 60 vs the 75 essentially make no difference for people in 95% of the real world use case, especially considering the ever expanding supercharger network.
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    ggnykk
    I always wonder why the Tesla European pricing are so much higher than in US. I do notice that some European price listed at Tesla website does include VAT tax, while US pricing doesn't include tax. But still doesn't account for the big difference. Maybe there are other incentive in Europe to bring the cost down?
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    xav-
    Actually it appears that excluding taxes the model s is significantly cheaper in France than in the US. Base Car is 71k euros out the door. Sales tax is 13k! That is 58k euros before any tax incentives, or taxes. Here it's $66k.

    To that you add $8 gallon of gas..... I think model s would make more sense back home than here in CA :)
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    xav-
    I also forgot to add cheaper electricity to the list.. At least cheaper than SoCal
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    heysteveh
    If the following posts are correct then I don't see much advantage to upgrading from the 60 to the 75 battery option for most people, myself included. For my everyday around town driving, the 60 would have more than enough range. And when I go on vacation and need the extra range of the 75... well these posts seem to say that you if had the 75 you would only charge it at the SC's to 80% which would give you the equivalent of the 60 battery. And if you have the 60 battery you can charge it just as quickly to the same amount. So why would anyone buy/upgrade to the 75?

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  • Jun 10, 2016
    RogerHScott
    For the ability to charge it to 100% and get that additional range. That said, you'd want to be really sure you needed
    that before you paid the substantial premium. As I think someone already pointed out, many SCs are now less than a
    60's range apart, so you don't need that extra range for most SC-supported travel. There are still some larger gaps, but
    we all hope those will be filled before too long (e.g., western NY, north-central PA).
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    heysteveh
    This was my first thought as well about the advantage of the upgrade to the 75 over the 60. But what many other posters are saying is that on a long trip you will realistically only be charging the 75 to 80% capacity which would be the same range as the 60. And since the 60 is in reality a locked 75 you can charge it to it's full 60kw capacity in the same short amount of time thereby negating any advantage of the 75 on a long trip (except if you have the 75 charged to 100% to START your trip... but after that you would only be charging it to 80% at the SC's). So if the 60 has enough range for you for your normal everyday driving needs, and if there is really no advantage to the 75's higher range realistically speaking on a longer trip, I ask again: WHY WOULD YOU PAY THE EXTRA FOR A 75 OVER A 60?
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    Cstreet
    We are all just supporting the local car company :).
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  • Jun 10, 2016
    GoTslaGo
    Here's a crazy thought.

    Tesla went from 85-->90, 3k IIRC. 70-->75, 3k too... so we all got used to a $3k or so battery upgrade uption.

    Now:

    60-->75; 8.5-9k.

    So, let's just say

    90-->105; 9k?

    Maybe marketing is trying to get us used to a larger price point for a larger battery upgrade? Testing the waters with 60?;)

    Here's to hoping that those newer 90s out there are limited 100 or 105s...:D
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  • Jun 11, 2016
    TorqueIt
    The best thing about the 60/60D announcement is that buyers have more choice.

    Want a lower point of entry price to get into an S? Get the 60/60D.
    Want a solid car with solid performance, but don't want to shell out for a 90/90D? Get the 75/75D.
    Undecided if you can live with the range of a 60 kWh or not for your specific driving patterns and want to drive it for a few months before deciding? Get the 60/60D.

    There are some buyers who don't mind doing more planning to live with a smaller 60kWh battery, and there are others who don't mind stepping up to 75kWh to alleviate some of that planning/hassle. Everyone wins!

    To those who are peeved that a 75kWh is like unlockable "DLC", you buy and receive exactly what you pay for, a 60kWh battery (along with some fringe benefits of battery charging speed and longevity), and have an option to upgrade for a reasonable price if you decide you want more range. Would you rather receive ONLY a 60kWh battery and not have any options?

    Personally I purchased a pre-refresh 2016 70D and would be thrilled if I found out I really had an 85kWh or 90wWh pack.
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  • Jun 11, 2016
    RogerHScott
    As I said, although the SC network covers most long-distance travel even with a 60, there are larger gaps where a 75 would either get you there or at least significantly reduce range anxiety along the way. Realistically, I think the number of people for whom it would really be worth it is small -- and shrinking, as the SC network gets filled in.
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  • Jun 11, 2016
    mshuang
    I think I read somewhere that someone asked Tesla how much it'd cost to change out the 85 battery for the 90, and the price he was quoted was on the order of 22k. Elon has been quoted as saying that present Model S owners should probably wait until a more significant bump in battery capacity before upgrading.

    90 to 105 being 9k doesn't sound unreasonable, but with an ever growing Supercharger network covering most long distance travel needs, is there really any additional benefit to keep raising the battery capacity? You're just dragging along more weight. I'm guessing they're going to take a look at the numbers of people upgrading from 60 to 75, and see how that compares to the numbers of people purchasing 90s.

    When I was first looking at the Model S and deciding between the 60 and the 85, the Supercharger network wasn't as built out as it is now. These days I'd just recommend to people that they get the 60, and get the 60D if they need AWD.

    Compare to costs of the upgrades:
    60: 210 miles range / 75: 249 miles -- 39 miles for 9k ($231 per mile/$600 per kWh).
    60D: 218 miles range / 75D: 259 miles -- 41 miles for 9k ($220 per mile / $600 per kWh).

    I'm extrapolating for the 90D ($89,500) vs 60D ($71,000) -- cost for the additional range is $18,500

    90D: 294 miles range -- 76 miles range for $18,500 ($243 per mile / $617 per kWh)
    P90D: 270 miles range -- 52 miles range for $18,500 ($356 per mile / $617 per kWh)

    If there was a 90 to 105 upgrade, it probably would cost 9-10k -- you'd probably get another 38 miles on the 105D, and 26 additional miles on the P105D.

    I'd argue that the 60/60D range is good enough for most people -- the 90D is really only when you do a lot of road trips/driving where superchargers / EV charging stations aren't as commonplace/available.
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  • Jun 11, 2016
    mshuang
    I think I'd rather not have Tesla giving them more battery capacity that the owner wouldn't upgrade for. I suppose if Tesla gets the car back as a lease return, they can resell it as a 75, but having the extra capacity in there does have a cost too, especially if the owner never upgrades the capacity , that's just extra dead weight they're driving around for the lifetime of the car.
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  • Jun 11, 2016
    Snerruc
    Checked Evtripplanner for long beach to tampa. Classic 60 takes 4 hours longer charging than 70. Every thing else close to same except one leg. If you assume that new 60 charges at the same rate as a 70, you can use the 70 chart. Ev never charges more than 90% ,which is the range charge for new 60. You just have 2 range charges which should not take more time than 90% on the 70. At worst you take 4 hours longer
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  • Jun 11, 2016
    mshuang
    I don't mind the extra time charging -- I think the stopovers at Superchargers are some of the most relaxing parts of road trips.
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  • Jun 11, 2016
    Snerruc
    Agree. It does show that there is little real bang for the buck going to the 75. The 90d is another matter. Fewer stops, higher speeds, no range anxiety. However, it costs one third more. If you aren't interested in the extra performance, the people who really need the extra range are fairly small.
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  • Jun 11, 2016
    ggnykk
    The new 60 should supercharge a bit faster than the old 70 kwh car. Remember the new 60 is a software limited 75kwh car. Higher battery capacity means slower tapering in supercharging, which means less charge time.
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  • Jun 11, 2016
    KJD
    I am not so sure about that. If you look back at when the choices were the original 60 and 85, the 85 outsold the 60 by about 3 to 1.

    It will be interesting and I am very curious how the sales numbers will split between the 60, the 75 and the 90 in the current lineup.
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  • Jun 11, 2016
    BEEZR
    Not sure you can directly correlate sales numbers of 85 vs 60 to those who need the additional range. Some people will just buy the "best" one. And in this price category there may be fewer buyers who are price sensitive. Also, when the choices were 60 or 85, what was the state of the supercharger network? There's also the perception of what you need and the reality of what you need. I would expect most buyers do not need greater range -- but many think they do. (Or can afford to not really think about it too much...)
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  • Jun 13, 2016
    AustinPowers
    But don't forget, 58K Euro is 66K USD. Where's the difference?

    And yes, the German prices I listed include 19% VAT, but even so, the net base price of a naked unoptioned S 60 is still 64,300 Euro (~72,500 USD), way above the limit for the German EV incentive program (at which Tesla doesn't participate anyway). Plus, for the private customer the net price is of no relevance as he has to pay the full taxes.

    And what the hell - the base price for an S 60 in France including VAT is only 70,800 Euro, versus 76,600 Euro in Germany? Even though the VAT rate in France is higher than in Germany?
    Has the French incentive of 10,000 Euro been factored in into that price already? If not, how come a French Model S is so much cheaper than a German one? I thought we had a common European market. So much for that. If that price relationship is the same for Model 3, I might actually buy mine in France and brush up my language skills to be able to read the manual and the screens :p

    Plus, wait a minute, are you saying that from that base price of 70,800 Euro you could deduct the 10K Euro incentive to only have to pay 60,800 Euro effectively? That would be truly something.

    At least it is another reason why the Model S is not the "German Camry" (which would be a wrong analogy anyway as there is no such thing as a Camry sold over here - actually there used to be, but it didn't sell so they stopped importing them more than ten years ago). And the latest price increase won't help either. Model 3 can't come soon enough!
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