May 21, 2016
ReversePolarity This might be in the wrong forum (if so I apologize in advance). I've got two EV'a (P85D/500e). My garage is setup for 220V 30A charging for the Model S, but, for the 500e, it didn't make sense to put down $1k for a car that sees 3000-5000 miles a year... So I'm stuck with the 3 miles/hr charging with the 120V plug.
Knowing that Tesla has J1772 to Tesla adapter so you can charge the car at many charging stations out there, is there any Tesla to 1772 chargers so I can charge my other electric car with the HPWC?
Saw a video here: New EV charging adapter lets J1772 car owners use Tesla HPWC charging stations � cool? or theft?
But can't seem to find any pricing/purchase info. Now, obviously I won't be doing to charge an EV at Tesla, its just for my own home use. Any pointers? Thanks!�
May 21, 2016
TexasEV Not available. That was someone's hack.�
May 21, 2016
ReversePolarity I suspected that.... but someone out there *must* have commercialized it as I would buy one
�
May 21, 2016
davewill You can have a J1772 connector put on your HPWC over at QuickChargePower.com. they are supposedly planning an adapter, but it still isn't out.�
May 21, 2016
stopcrazypp We had a discussion on this before:
Concerns about Tesla to non-Tesla charging adapters
It would be a violation of Tesla's design patents to make such a product that uses Tesla's socket design. The homemade 3D printed examples Tesla probably won't take issue with, but a commercial product I think they will (and it will not be "good faith" since it would easily be used to circumvent their destination charger network).
However, adding a J1772 connector to the HPWC (or the mobile connector, as in the JESLA) doesn't fall into such legal complications. However, I don't believe QuickChargePower has that service for the HPWC yet (only the mobile connector).�
May 21, 2016
stopcrazypp Since you only have 30A charging, are you talking about UMC (the mobile connector that comes with your car) or the HPWC (the hardwired wall connector)? Quick charge power already has a service to convert a UMC to J1772 for $200 plus shipping:
UMC conversion to J1772 (JESLA)
They don't have anything for the HPWC yet though.
If you do this, you would have to use your J1772 adapter to charge your Model S however.
Or you can get another J1772 EVSE that plugs into your 14-50 socket, for example the 40A Juicebox for $500:
Amazon.com: JuiceBox 40A EV Charger / Home Level 2 Electric Vehicle Charging Station with 24' Cord: Automotive
Or a Clipper Creek Unit:
Level 2 Electric Vehicle Charging Stations: 240V EVSE from 12-80 Amp (19.2 kW max) | ClipperCreek
However, if you have only one 14-50 socket, it is not ideal, since the 14-50 socket is not designed for frequent unplugging.�
May 22, 2016
davewill They've done it for people, even though it isn't listed specifically. Folks have had no problems selling the Roadster adapters and i wouldn't expect a problem with adapters for the newer Tesla connector. Besides, it should fall under the patent release.
All Our Patent Are Belong To You�
May 22, 2016
ReversePolarity Thanks for the replies! So I guess the only commercial one would be the UMC to J1772 conversion service? Not sure if i'm mentally ready for that yet haha.... plus, it'd require me to use an adapter every day (since I drive the tesla more than other ev).
It almost seems trivial to manufacture a UMC to J1772 adapter cable, but I'm not sure how many Tesla owners would also own other non-tesla EV's.... I do imagine this to grow since EV's are pretty much everywhere now.�
May 22, 2016
stopcrazypp We have discussed this in the thread linked. The Roadster adapters clearly fall under "good faith" since they will never be able to circumvent the "Tesla only" destination charging spots (since the Roadster is a Tesla). However, the Tesla to J1772 adapters are not so clear. In the video showing the i3 charging, it shows it clearly charging at a spot marked as "Tesla only". This is not "good faith".�
May 22, 2016
freds I saw an adapter in use; but it was by a Tesla employee that had a leaf and inserted a recycled car outlet into a junction box. I image he is now on the waiting list for model III.�
May 23, 2016
davewill I consider that argument as silly now as i did then.
Unless Tesla themselves owns the location, I consider the"Tesla only" sign to just be marketing fluff in printing the signs. I'm unconvinced that site owners in general would actually make it a policy to exclude another EV. Plus it would be the site owner's prerogative to require and enforce that, not Tesla's.�
May 23, 2016
gavine I have a Model S and a BMW i3. I bought the Juicebox and plugged it into my 14-50 outlet. It does the trick for both vehicles,however, the J1772 adapter is kind of a pain to deal with. Also, the UMC has the button to open the charge door, whereas the J1772 doesn't.
I would much rather have a Tesla -to-J1772 adapter.....If so, I would sell my Juicebox because I wouldn't need it anymore.
I'm not sweating this too much because the i3 is a lease and will be replaced by a Model 3 so I will end-up selling the Juicebox as soon as I get the Model 3 and turn-in the i3.�
May 23, 2016
L-P-G If the business paid for the HPWC and the install then you're correct, they should be able to offer charging to whomever they wish. However if Tesla gave them the HPWC for free which they sometimes do (they've even been known to pay for installs) then I would be upset because in buying the car part of my dollars have gone towards paying to that infrastructure for Tesla owners to use, something that someone with an adapter didn't pay for.�
May 23, 2016
AWDtsla The real problem isn't that another brand may plug-in. The real problem is they hog the spot while they charge SUPER slowly. We already have this problem with free L2 chargers available at work. There's always a freakin leaf or a volt plugged into them for 10 hours straight. Those L2 chargers weren't exactly fast to begin with, but it sucks even more when there's someone plugged into it pulling 50% power of that. For an 80A HPWC, it's 20%.
You want to be "That guy" doing 50 in the passing lane of a 65 mph highway?�
May 23, 2016
stopcrazypp This is actually a workable solution. Using an off-the-shelf car socket from Tesla and just putting it into a junction box doesn't violate any patents. However, a 3D printed, molded, or machined adapter using the socket design (like with the Roadster adapters or Tesla's existing J1772 adapters) does involve the patents.�
May 23, 2016
stopcrazypp We had a long discussion on this already in the other thread. Basically my argument is given when Tesla installs their destination chargers they use a 2:1 HPWC to J1772 ratio, they do expect some degree of exclusivity/availability to Tesla owners for the chargers (and $1500 per charger installation costs) that they donate. This is largely done via the proprietary socket.
Tesla is not going to take issue with a handful of homemade sockets (just not worthwhile to pursue), but if someone profits off this commercially in a widespread way, that may not necessarily be the case.�
May 23, 2016
davewill I don't see it. If Tesla wants to control the use of the site, they need to explicitly require it up front, and they don't. As for the "concern" about someone else "hogging" the plug...a big raspberry on it. The rest of us need electrons, too, often worse than you do, and can't afford your expensive car.
Hell, I'm still a little pissed at Tesla for going with a proprietary plug in the first place.�
May 23, 2016
AWDtsla It is not. Unfortunately you've confused the economics of the present situation into this problem. There are plenty of L2 chargers around, why use up a space that someone else could use much more efficiently?
Going super slow in the ultra fast lane is a perfect analogy. It violates "don't be a dick", a rule if which followed solves many problems.�
May 23, 2016
davewill If there's a J1772 plug available I would, of course, use it. However I stayed at a hotel last week that had 6 Tesla plugs and two J1772 plugs...and one of them was L1. In short, there was only one plug out of eight I could use to get enough charge overnight for my return trip the next day. I called ahead and reserved it and was fine, but if it had been taken or broken, I would have had no shame about using one of the Tesla plugs, if I could...with the hotel management's permission of course.
Oh, BTW does it make you equally angry when a Tesla that can only use 40a "hogs" an 80a plug? Look, us EVers need to act a lot more like we're in this together...because we are. Luckily Elon sees this much better than some of the Tesla owners.�
May 23, 2016
AWDtsla Yes. Especially if there is a choice. Especially if the leaving it there all day. Of course it's unlikely for a Model S to need to be plugged in that long to get wherever they are going at 40A. I've seen 70D's around here plugged into free L2's for nearly 36 hours... and I had the logs to prove it.�
May 23, 2016
davewill So the solution is to outlaw an adapter in order to make sure nobody else can use "your" precious plugs? Must be nice to feel so entitled.�
May 23, 2016
AWDtsla No the solution is still "Don't be a dick".�
May 23, 2016
L-P-G You just made my point, we paid a premium to subsidize the cost of the infrastructure, you didn't. it'd be like me hooking up my water hose to your house just because we have the same fittings, you still pay the mortgage and the water bill but I'm using it for free.
Don't get me wrong if you're in a bind, if there's no other Teslas around or if you're not using the only available stall I care very little if you were to use an adapter and charge, we're trying to spread EVs after all. However when I (a paying customer) get blocked from using the service I paid for by someone who didn't pay for it then I care. Hell if there was a way to pay some small sum for non-Tesla owners for the use I wouldn't care at all, then you'd be helping to grow the infrastructure and you'd have equal rights as a Tesla owner to use the charger.�
May 23, 2016
davewill Tesla (and I guess you by extension?) aren't paying the mortgage or the energy bill. You want to make the rules, but you don't control the plug. If the site owner says, "don't use it", I'm all over that but the notion that an adapter can't be made is as silly as ever.�
May 23, 2016
aesculus Another angle that may need to be thought through: With the new WC that seems to have more logic in it with regard to the state of charge of the car, is it possible this solution will not work? Could the new WC basically refuse to charge a non Tesla on some handshake scenario?�
May 23, 2016
davewill Never say never I suppose, but, no, there's no handshake there that would make that possible. The wall connector has no clue what the state of charge of the car is. All it knows is that the car asked for power and isn't signalling an error.�
May 23, 2016
jgs I love how absolutely everybody on TMC is apparently a lawyer or at least an expert on the law. The original poster was talking about charging in their own garage, though, which makes the last 10 or 20 rants pretty much irrelevant. For what it's worth, I was also going to suggest installing a plain-vanilla J1772 EVSE. It seems like it'd be fine, given that the outlet is apparently only 30A anyway. Someone mentioned that the J1772 EVSE wouldn't be able to trigger the charge port door the way the UMC does, which is true, but is this really such a big deal for people other than the gee-whiz factor? Is poking the charge port door with your finger to make it pop open that onerous?�
May 23, 2016
L-P-G Do I pay 100% of it? No, but Tesla does make money by selling cars, and being that I bought a car in a way (as small as it may be) I do pay for it. Also Tesla states when you buy a car that it gives you the right to use the infrastructure. My point is I'm paying for the use of the charger via buying a car, you are not. I'm not making the rules, I'm simply stating that using the charger and electricity which you in no way contributed to is a dick move ergo my comment about a small fee for nonTesla owners would solve this whole issue.
I can very easily go charge at a Nissan or Chevy dealership, however being that I didn't contribute to their infrastructure I don't do it, instead I go look for an SC or a public station.
As for making or not making the adapter I don't care about that, you should be allowed to make whatever you want with your 3D printer, how you use what you made that's another story.�
May 23, 2016
Skotty I'm pretty sure poking my charge port door doesn't make it open. However, I can just hold the trunk button on the fob for a couple of seconds and pop it that way, and that's fine. I use a J1772 at home to charge my Model S, and using the adapter is not that much trouble. However, if doing that, I do recommend ordering an extra adapter so you can keep 1 in the garage with the J1772 and 1 with the UMC (in the car or where ever you keep your UMC).�
May 23, 2016
jgs Oh, I hadn't realized this wasn't universal. I guess maybe it was introduced with the powered charge port door.�
May 23, 2016
MP3Mike Are you sure? I swear someone said that the new WC network would prioritize the available power to the car with the lowest charge first. It doesn't just split it equally.�
May 23, 2016
davewill Yeah, I'm sure.�
May 23, 2016
MP3Mike @FlasherZ disagrees with you. In one of his posts he says SOC is taken into account. FlasherZ have you gotten any more details about how the sharing works?�
May 23, 2016
Erandhawa Out of curiosity can you charge using a 240v? Might be cheaper to just get one of those installed. If you aren't using both at the same time there is no excess load on the electrical panel issue. I've got both a Nema 14-50 and a Tesla HPWC, I usually just leave the Nema 14-50 off but have used both late at night with my HPWC dialed down with no issues.�
May 23, 2016
Rocky_H I remember him saying that was something he had heard from some people, but people who have now gotten them installed and tested them have found that to not be the case. They do dynamically update, as one car will finish, it will then not be requesting power and the others will adjust and allocate that power elsewhere, but in people's actual testing so far, it splits the current evenly among all of the cars requesting power and does not relate to their state of charge.
If you look at this post from @sowbug on page 13 of that very same thread, he explains how it actually functions with his two HPWCs hooked together, and it does not seem to do anything related to the state of charge.
New Wall Connector :)�
May 23, 2016
bonnie Really wish you'd direct your anger at the manufacturer of your EV, for not actively putting in charging spots for the vehicle they sold you. Instead, you're coming off as demanding that Tesla give you those *free electrons*, when your own manufacturer did nothing.
Btw, Tesla has typically donated two HPWCs and also a J1772 at most destination charging spots. To take care of the people who bought a vehicle from a manufacturer who didn't seem to want to invest in the infrastructure.
You're welcome.�
May 23, 2016
bonnie And wouldn't it be great if ALL manufacturers did what Tesla was doing, building out the infrastructure? Then yes, we're all in this together and it would be fantastic to share that infrastructure. But right now, only Tesla is building it out.
Really really wish people would direct their anger at the right target.�
May 23, 2016
MP3Mike Actually that posts says "My next experiment will be to plug in a depleted car while a charged car is plugged in. In that case I want to see the depleted car charge at the full 72A/80A, just as if the charged car weren't plugged in at all. If that experiment is successful, then I'll be completely happy with the connector purchases."
So as far as I can tell he hasn't tested the situation we are talking about yet; or at least he hasn't let us know. (He tested with one car charging and the other charged, and it gave all the power to the charging car.) I just asked if he has tested to see what happens with different SOCs.�
May 23, 2016
davewill The only beef I have is at people who think that an adapter should be "illegal" because they somehow are paying for the spots when it's the site owners who pay the bills and own the spots and make the rules. Not you guys and not Tesla. It all started because the OP wanted an adapter to use his own HPWC with his i3. Folks immediately piled on about how nobody would be allowed to make one, which is a bunch of bunk.
For the record, I love my Tesla powered RAV4EV and probably wouldn't bother to buy such an adapter because I don't really ruin into all that many Tesla plugs in my travels. I'd rather let sites know they are missing the boat putting in proprietary plugs, instead.
Also, Nissan has certainly put in public charging, in fact they've sponsored a lot of public DC charging, something that Tesla hasn't done. They carefully locked theirs up tight... and Tesla didn't hesitate to make an adapter so that their cars could use Nissan's chargers. But that's cool because we're all on the same team and Tesla owners should be able to use the common infrastructure. Sometimes you guys get too big for your britches around here.�
May 23, 2016
Brass Guy If I recall, Tesla hesitated to the tune of a few "coming soon" years actually.�
May 23, 2016
FlasherZ I have not seen definitive evidence as to how multiple devices operate with regard to state of charge. But it's easy enough to find out. Take a car with 200 miles and another car with 100 miles. Plug the 200 miler in first, wait 10 minutes, then plug the 100 miler in. Observe.
Typically, I get the right scoop. There are times I have been wrong. I was told that it was reconfirmed with engineering that the current goes to the cars based on SOC (higher currents to lower SOC's).
I have seen the new wall adapters in person but don't have them to perform the test myself.�
May 23, 2016
stopcrazypp No, Nissan chose to use CHAdeMO, which is a IEC international standard (as is J1772) that multiple manufacturers chose to use and many charging networks adopted (esp. in Japan). It is not in any way "locked up". It used to be a proprietary standard, but Tesla waited until it became an international standard to release the adapter.�
May 23, 2016
FlasherZ If you could point me at the post where this is tested (a lower SOC car is connected while a higher SOC car is charging) along with the results (that it doesn't differentiate charging based on SOC), I would appreciate it.
I didn't hear it from "some people", I heard it from Tesla folks responsible for charging. I expressed my own concern that J1772 doesn't communicate SOC and was reassured that indeed it will go by SOC. Now, that said, I've been informed incorrectly previously (the 72A/48A charging fun with Model X), so I'm open to evidence that might contradict it.
As noted just above, I have seen the new connector but haven't seen the sharing with my own eyes quite yet and am awaiting someone's posts here to reflect it. My assumption is that Tesla has designed the HPWC with a more advanced controller that communicates similarly to the way the superchargers do it.
Note that he says both cars were at about 50% charge, so it would be expected to have a near-even split. He saw 38A/42A at one point with both charging which means it wasn't entirely even (40/40). Now we just have to wait to see whether it does more differentiation based on it.�
May 24, 2016
Rocky_H Sorry this is continuing a side conversation that's not quite relevant in this thread. Yes, I normally trust the information you get, @FlasherZ, but since it seemed to conflict with @sowbug's test, that seems more reliable. I was going by this part of his testing report:
"Plug in the second car, and each indicates 40A available."
So that seemed to be saying that from detecting two cars, the pilot signals were telling the cars they could only have a 40A/40A split. I did forget about the following line, where he did say it was later sending 38 and 42, and with both cars near 50% charge, that does seem to confirm what you were saying. Sorry to @MP3Mike as well.�
May 24, 2016
AWDtsla Funny that CHAdeMO was basically obsolete before it got any real use, which was from Model S's no less, and the amount of power they were drawing was killing the stations because they couldn't actually deliver the spec'd power. If Tesla waited for "standards" to make their cars they'd be out of business by now. Of course you could look at it form the other perspective as well, which is that the standards intentionally suck to make EV's suck. Sort of like fuel cells are always 10 years away, it seems that really good standard public charging is also always always 10 years away. We've had some paper launches like J1772-2009, but good luck finding one of those. I assume CCS is just as bad off, there's probably no real cars pulling the spec'd power and if Tesla ever makes an adapter those stations, we'll find that the actual power is either very low or it breaks the stations.
Any one of the auto behemoths could make a charging network with their "standard" charging that's multiple times the size of Tesla's network, probably only with the amount of money they spend on private jets for their executive teams. They aren't doing it and seem to have no real intention to.�
May 25, 2016
L-P-G On one of my previous replies I said that you should be allowed to print whatever you want but how you use what you print is another story, we've stated multiple times that taking part in an infrastructure you didn't help pay for nor are willing to contribute to (you've very conveniently ignored all comments stating that a small charge per use would alleviate non-Tesla owners charging) is a dick move, you're either choosing to only answer those responses that benefit you, you're too thick to understand the argument or you just want the free electrons regardless of what it took to get them to you.�
May 25, 2016
davewill I understand your argument, I just find it to be a bunch of malarkey. Tesla puts no restraints on the site owners, it's their call who can and cannot use their plugs. The electrons don't come from Tesla or YOU (BTW I'm pretty sure Tesla doesn't care, just you guys). All of this hand-wringing about an adapter commercial or not is silly. If the site owner says no, then I'll listen. I'd even be likely to ask them if it's all right. You guys, not so much.�
May 25, 2016
bonnie You don't know what is in the contract between Tesla and the site owner. You might be right, but the fact that there is a contract would indicate that there are some expectations and would lead me to believe you are wrong with this statement.
I get that you want full use of Tesla's infrastructure. I think it's great that Tesla not only has donated a large number of J1772s at destination charging sites, but in many cases, has paid for the installation. How would you feel if you pulled up to one of those sites and found the HPWCs unused and a Model S charging on the J1772? Probably not very happy & understandably so.
Tesla made adapters for the Model S to take advantage of two standardized protocols - J1772 and chademo. Not 'to take advantage of Nissan's chargers'. Many sites are pay for use, and an even larger number are nonoperational. Should we call Nissan about that?�
May 25, 2016
davewill Not really. I just like to point out that the self-appointed gatekeepers here don't know squat. If I ever got an adapter, I'd talk to the site owners...and I bet a hotel I'm staying at is going to say, "Yes, go right ahead and use our Tesla plug" every single time.
The "use the plug that natively fits first" is just common sense and has nothing to do with anything here.�
May 26, 2016
alevek Why would one be upset? When the second Model S pulled up, The HPWC was busy charging another Model S, so he naturally plugged in to the J1772. The first Model S finished charging and correctly vacated the HPWC.
BTW, I had QCP install an 80 amp J1772 on my HPWC cable so I can charge both the Model S and I3 with the HPWC. Was going to make an adapter box but Tesla wouldn't sell me an inlet charge port, which sort of pissed me off.�
May 28, 2016
AmpedRealtor I would love a Tesla to J1772 adapter as well so I can share my HPWC with all the i3s, Leafs, and other EVs of the world.
Whether or not that is a violation of Tesla's patents, etc., is not really my concern. Tesla can take care of itself.�
May 28, 2016
bonnie I think you lost the story line. We were talking about if there was both an HPWC and also a J1772 EVSE at a location & a Model S was charging on the J1772 ... when the other pulls up in a non-Tesla and cannot charge at either.
What you do at your place is your business. Obviously.�
May 28, 2016
AZ Desert Driver I did no know this - Really? HPWC and J1772 installed at most destinations? That is fantastic news.�
May 28, 2016
AZ Desert Driver Really? the 14-50 socket is not designed for frequent unplugging? That was going to be my main home connect. Are there various qualities of sockets with frequent/infrequent capabilities? Whats a fellow to do?�
May 28, 2016
bonnie I know that at the ones I helped move forward, Tesla would donate two HPWCs and one J1772. You can always look on the Plugshare app to see what is available at a location.
For instance, here's a location in my hometown where I talked to the hotel first & then Tesla a few years ago. Tesla donated all three EVSEs, one of which is a J1772. (Screenshot of the Plugshare page.)
�
May 28, 2016
stopcrazypp EV sockets like J1772 are rated for 10k plug/unplug cycles (which would last 27 years in daily unplugging). Typical NEMA sockets are rated for ~1000 (which for daily unplugging will last about 3 years). Most ideal is to have two sockets, but that is expensive and your panel might not have the space.
The other option is to buy a industrial style 14-50 (instead of a cheaper residential style) and hope it has better durability before it becomes loose. However, just be prepared that you might have to replace the socket as it becomes loose in around 3 years.
It helps to try to minimize the amount of times you unplug by scheduling how you do your charging.�
May 28, 2016
AZ Desert Driver
hmm- a cheap socket at $25 that lasts 3 years (or longer, depending on use/abuse), and gets replaced with another $25 socket...or a $80 socket that lasts "forever".
It just never occurred to me that plugs wear out. I've never changed a household 120 v socket (other than remodeling/painting) but never wear.
Thanks for confirming, and giving me some specs'.�
May 28, 2016
jgs You mean the UMC (plugged in to a 14-50) was to be your main connect? Unless you have unusual requirements I wouldn't think the duty cycle on the 14-50 would be an issue. Is there any reason you would unplug the UMC daily? (And if so, what is it?)
As a data point, I've had my S a little over a year and my 14-50 has probably had fewer than 10 insert/remove cycles. YMMV obviously, but I don't think I'm an outlier.�
May 28, 2016
davewill I certainly have. If a socket doesn't hold the plug firmly, you definitely want to replace it. It's very inexpensive.�
May 29, 2016
AZ Desert Driver I don't yet have a car to plug in, but my plan was to have an electrician install a new panel with a 50 amp breaker. Off that, install a 14-50 socket. Plug the car into that 14-50 socket every night. So, thats about 30 cycles per month?
Perhaps (the light just came on) you unplug the CAR side, and leave the wall side plugged until one declares "road trip". Now 10 plug cycles in a year seems like a lot of road trips.
If the light stays on - are you saying that I should buy another $500 device (Wall Charger) that plugs (hard wires) into the 14-50 breaker and so we never wear out the sockets ?�
May 29, 2016
jgs Exactly right.
I'm not saying that though some would give you that advice. My advice would be to use the UMC delivered with the car. If you find you're not satisfied with it, you can always spend the extra five hundred bucks in the future. Otherwise, keep it in your pocket.
By the way, you might take a look at FAQ: Home Tesla charging infrastructure Q&A�
May 29, 2016
stopcrazypp Yes, you would do your own cost benefit analysis. If you are comfortable changing your own socket when it gets loose (meaning you know how to do it safely/properly and don't have to hire a electrician to do it), then just going with a cheap socket might be the way to go. If you have to hire an electrician, then you need to factor in that into the costs vs getting a more durable socket.
Unfortunately however, spending more on a 14-50 socket doesn't necessarily guarantee you get a more durable socket. I did a little searching and it seems all 14-50 are already considered "industrial," so there really isn't the residential vs industrial designation as you get with 120V sockets.
As you already figured out, unplugging the car side is really the way it is designed for. The car side is designed for 10k+ cycles, so will last "forever". If you can leave the wall charger plugged-in until you need to bring it with you on a trip, that will drastically reduce the cycles on the 14-50 socket. Before your clarification, I was presuming you might have another EV that used the 14-50 socket, and you had to swap in between (which might require daily unplugging).�
May 29, 2016
L-P-G Once again you ignored the part where the business DOES NOT pay for the charger or its install, this means Tesla subsidized the cost and not the business itself, like I said for private use or if the business paid for both the device and the install then yes by all means they should be allowed to do whatever they wish. It's not about Tesla putting restraints on the site owners, it's about having common decency as a human being that if you didn't help subsidize the cost of the infrastructure you should at least be helping in for a small fee. Like I said previously I don't use Nissan chargers because I didn't help pay for them, if they allowed me to pay to charge then I'd use them. I guess some of us are perfectly fine with paying for service rather than finding ways to get things for free instead.�
May 29, 2016
AZ Desert Driver Yeah- sometimes I'm thick - and the obvious is not. The wire has TWO ends, and I was only thinking about the wall side. Duh - unplug the car!! and leave the wall plugged in. Seems so obvious now, but for months its only been the wall side in my thinking.�
May 30, 2016
davewill Let me get this straight, before you use a free J1772, you carefully find out who paid to put it in and if it happens to be another car manufacturer, you gallantly refuse to patronize it? ROTLMAO.
If a site wants to collect a fee, I'll happily pay it. I'm not all that concerned with whether it's free, I'm more concerned with getting to my next destination. If I'm patronizing a hotel or store and they are happy to let me use their free plug, whatever shape, I'll happily use it if I can. It's kind of sad. I think only on a Tesla forum would you see people going, "Mine! Mine! Mine!" like a little kid. The rest of us just want EVs, whoever made them, to be successful.�
May 30, 2016
stopcrazypp If a Nissan owner pulls into their dealership and finds a Tesla there charging (or they pull up at the same time), I find it reasonable that they feel they should have priority over the Tesla.
On the flip side of the coin, I don't find it unreasonable that a Tesla owner expects priority at EVSEs that Tesla paid for (EVSE+$1500 each for installation and also extra J1772s in a 2:1 ratio). This is especially true when Tesla deliberately made the proprietary connectors in a 2:1 ratio and put a "Tesla only" sign on the ones with the Tesla connectors, so it's not even a grey area how Tesla expects them to be used.
Your appeal to support of EVs as a justification for your position, reminds me of this incident where a person in a i3 charged at a CCS charger at a Kia dealership and then tried to shame the Kia dealer when they suggested he not charge there (original blog post was removed, but the dealer's short remains):
Op-Ed: The Other Side Of The Story � The KIA Dealer's Version
Basically he appealed to the same argument that the EV cause trumps everything and he should be entitled to charging there given there was a CCS plug. A lot of people seemed to have been the opposite opinion: he should be grateful that Kia had a CCS plug installed and should not expect by default he would be allowed to charge there. People seem to have the same opinion here: be grateful Tesla had the generosity to install J1772 EVSEs and don't expect for a matter of fact that they expect you to charge at the proprietary HPWCs.�
May 30, 2016
davewill Yawn. Tesla doesn't own the locations and doesn't get to make the rules. How hard is that to understand? I don't care that they donated the equipment and the install. The only one opinion I cars about is the site owner's and he is most unlikely to be such a Tesla fan as you are. He's just going to want his customers to be happy.
And I assure you that Tesla's choice of a proprietary plug makes me less inclined to respect their efforts, not more. If there's a J1772 plug available fine, I'll use it, but talking about "priority" is just dumb. If a Tesla owner is there first on the only J1772, I'm not going to whine that i should have got priority, maybe it was the only open plug when he pulled in. I don't know and you don't know.
As for the Kia dealer, HE actually owns the location and is free to be a dick if he wants. I won't argue with him. Similarly, I wouldn't dream of using the plug at a location that didn't want me to.
Waiting for the next entitled Tesla owner to post, "but I paid for it" in 3 2 ...�
May 30, 2016
Hengist Most of the time the UMC in your car will just be there for "in case" you need to plug in somewhere during travel, usually at your destination. You can leave it plugged into your garage the rest of the time. The trouble comes when you go on a trip and forget the UMC. After that happens you'll want either a second UMC, or an HPWC. Used to be that the HPWC cost three times as much as a UMC.�
May 30, 2016
TexasEV You seem angry that Tesla owners don't agree with your wanting to take advantage of a charging infrastructure that Tesla created.�
May 30, 2016
davewill No I'm amused that they think they own the plugs.�
May 30, 2016
bonnie For what it's worth, that's not how you're coming across. And I don't see anyone claiming they own the plugs.
I'm all for sharing. I've certainly charged a few Leafs. Volts, even a Coda here at the house. I am happy to see all the EVs on the road. I think a lot of people here feel the same way.
But this all really just theoretical at the moment.�
May 30, 2016
stopcrazypp Actually in the video posted by the OP, Tesla does own the location, the unit was right in front of a Tesla store. And back to the original topic at hand that started this, Tesla owns the patents that govern the use of their connector. So certainly they have a mechanism to enforce. I was merely speculating that Tesla would not think it would be "fair use" for someone making such an adapter to circumvent Tesla's destination charging network. Thus I see a low likelihood of a widespread commercial adapter being made by a third party or Tesla themselves.
Well, I guess I just don't understand your expectation that Tesla should install chargers to allow other EVs to charge (that seems more like the entitled attitude to me). Tesla had the generosity of adding J1772 units to accommodate non-Tesla EVs, but they made a large proportion of them proprietary, because ultimately the destination network is designed as a convenience to Tesla owners and comes out of their pocket. I'm not seeing how the Tesla owner is acting "entitled" given they paid for the equipment.
No other automaker is doing the same destination charging network (outside of dealership locations), otherwise you wouldn't be here talking about using Tesla's network.�
May 30, 2016
L-P-G No I don't carefully find out who paid for it because by not going to another manufacturers establishment (dealship/sponsored locations) I know I'm not being a self entitled asshole and using infrastructure I didn't contribute towards. if it's a paid J1772 then it doesn't matter who installed it because it's paid. If i pull up to a business and it says Nissan/BMW/Chevy charging only then I'm not going to use it because I don't drive one of those, regardless if my car has an adapter for it or not. It's called being a decent human being and not taking advantage of things I didn't pay for (which seems to be the thing you can't grasp here). You're choosing to ignore the posted rules AND go out of your way to make an adapter for your car didn't come with nor does Tesla offer (in a way stating that you're not supposed to use it).
Tesla's choice to use a proprietary plug was one of necessity, J1772 can only go up to 240V/80A, My last supercharge was at 370V/294A which is too high for J1772 to handle.
You're mixing apples and oranges, for Tesla J1772 is not the main standard, being that we can use both plugs we (Tesla owners) should always use the Tesla plugs leaving the J1772 open for everyone else. stopcrazypp said if it was to occur inside of a Nissan dealership then Nissan should have priority and vice versa (which again you decided to ignore and make a different point).
I'm tired of arguing the point of being a decent human being and not using something you didn't pay for (which is being an entitled ass, like you're behaving). I'll take it for what it is. You want squatters rights and don't care who pays for your services.
Don't bother answering me, your hypocrisy is gives me high blood pressure, I'm setting the ignore setting to your username so I don't have to see your fallacies anymore.�
May 30, 2016
davewill Sigh. Tesla released the patents, subject to "good will" and if an adapter is used on a private EVSE or with a site owner's OK, it's good will in my book. Simple.
And now I'll bow out. You guys will never agree, but luckily your agreement is completely unneeded.�
May 30, 2016
stopcrazypp Ok, we'll agree to disagree, but my point was ultimately Tesla's agreement is needed for a commercial application of their socket in this case, because of people who will use such an adapter regardless of the desires of Tesla or the site owner (basically people who ignore the "Tesla charging only" signs as in the video). The only way around is the junction box solution using a socket from a Tesla car (which steps around patent issues) or if it remains largely DIY (won't affect the destination network in any major way).
If we see only a handful of such adapters, it won't be worthwhile for Tesla to take issue with. If we see tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands (such that the probability of conflict between someone using this adapter and a Tesla owner is sufficiently high), then that's a different story. We'll see who's right.
And I believe previously we weren't talking about situations where the EVSE is private, but rather ones where Tesla paid for it for public use. I have no issues with people using such an adapter in their own home or for a HPWC that the site owner paid out of their own pocket.�
May 30, 2016
Canuck I agree with most of what you say but you lost me on this part. This is in no way limited to a Tesla forum but actually very common in a lot of places in today's society.�
May 30, 2016
SW2Fiddler Good faith, actually.�
May 30, 2016
bonnie No, they didn't release the patents subject to "good will". They clearly stated that they "would not initiate patent lawsuits against someone who uses Tesla's technology in good faith". World of difference.
You will not find the technical details of the proprietary Tesla plug in the patent application. For that, you need to work with Tesla or be prepared to tear some hair out while reverse engineering (and I know of one person who can attest to that).
I agree that this whole discussion is ridiculous, because that adapter is not out there in the wild.
I really wish you'd direct your obvious passion towards the manufacturers that are producing EVs & demand they help build the charging infrastructure, especially because their lower-range vehicles are more in need than those of us who can charge at home overnight & (most of the time) be good for the day (or more).
That would be fantastic.�
May 31, 2016
AZ Desert Driver On a 10,000 foot view - I thought the purpose of Tesla was to get the world into electric cars, and that charging stations sprinkled everywhere was a key factor for adoption. Why would Tesla want to put landmines in its wake? Let EVERY ev have access to every charger as a goal. (granted, some chargers are better than others and there needs to be a standard plug/current for charging) .
Now, into the weeds....mine,mine, yours, i paid- you did not...seems to be contrary to the purpose of sprinkled chargers.
Is it a common problem, or just a potential conflict?�
May 31, 2016
jerry33 1. Any adapter of this type would have to be able to reduce the power or the EV wouldn't be particularly happy. I'd guess this would make the adapter about the same cost as the CHAdeMO adapter.
2. The SCs are around 100 to 150 miles apart. How do you use the network with a 50 mile Leaf?
3. Tesla SCs are for trips, not local charging (except in some areas where no one has home charging).
4. Tesla has stated they are willing to open up SCs to any manufacturer that pays to use it.
5. Why should Tesla pay for other manufacturers' to charge?
6. It's really weird that this topic even has any traction. Tesla chargers are for Teslas and those other cars that buy into the system (none so far).
7. If you have home charging, your chances of using any other charger are small, except on trips. In general free non-Tesla chargers are there to promote the business they are at. This is up to the individual business.�
May 31, 2016
davewill This discussion has nothing to do with SuperCharging, and these points don't apply.�
May 31, 2016
pchilds We Rav4 EV owners did pay Tesla through Toyota. If Toyota and Tesla haven't made the Rav4 EV, the Model S and X might not exist today. Some peoples memories are very short.
When I look at the destination charging list, some stations say for customer use only and some say public. Meeting the conditions should be all I need.�
Jun 6, 2016
AmpedRealtor I agree with this. We should all have the ability to share our HPWCs with other EV drivers if that is what we want to do. If those other EV drivers start using HPWC destination chargers with their adapters, well then Tesla will need to find a way to address it. I doubt that will be the case, but Tesla can take care of itself without its owners trying to influence what is or isn't manufactured for the free market.
Obviously, because Tesla built out its own network. The reason Nissan did as you say is because it was the cheaper option. Tesla is the only company that is actually investing substantial sums of money to install a charging network to facilitate long distance transport. Nissan should not be commended, they should be criticized for doing the bare minimum.
You mean by offering to let other manufacturers share the network in exchange for paying into the network? Seems Tesla has offered...
Nissan chargers happen to use CHAdeMO, which is a standard used by many public charging locations that have nothing to do with Nissan. Tesla's adapter enables use of CHAdeMO public charging stations throughout the country, some of which happen to be at Nissan dealerships. I don't know of any Tesla owners who helped themselves to a Nissan CHAdeMO charger without first asking for permission.�
Jun 6, 2016
Mark Vallaster What I would do is take down the tesla HPWC and put up a more standard plug connection (i.e. NEMA 14-50) that you could adapt both the model S mobile connector and the 500e connector to. You can sell the HPWC on ebay. You could then plug a single extension cord into the NEMA plug and then change what its plugged into (i.e. the 500e adapter or the MS Mobile Connector). I had always planned to upgrade my Nema 14-50 to a telsa HPWC but I haven't found the need to do it. The HPWC is much fancier but does the same thing as a regular NEMA plug.�
Jun 6, 2016
L-P-G Nema 14-50 can only go up to 50A, the HPWC can go up to 100A�
Jun 6, 2016
David99 Excellent, so you can install two 14-50 instead of one HPWC.�
Jun 6, 2016
AmpedRealtor How do you know that Tesla doesn't put conditions and requirements on how destination chargers are used? Tesla donates these chargers, therefore Tesla can require the site owner to agree to stipulations as a condition of the donation. I think that's common sense.
Tesla donates the chargers and can stipulate the conditions under which those donations are made. How hard is THAT to understand?
�
Jun 7, 2016
MorrisonHiker That's what I did. Of course they just came out with the updated HPWCs that can balance the load. If those had been available last year, I would've had things wired differently. Doh!�
Jun 7, 2016
Tree95 You're lucky. I've replaced every outlet in a house I bought because every one would barely hold a plug. Lots of hotels (admittedly mid to lower mid-range) have outlets so worn that even the tiny cube iPhone charger won't stay plugged in and falls out from its own weight.�
Jun 8, 2016
AZ Desert Driver I travel with a short power strip. My cubes and camera chargers always fit into my strip sockets. When US motels have soggy sockets, I just pinch my strips blades a bit, and now I have solid contact. I use foreign adapters as needed. I've been to 50 countries in the last 3 years - jungles/yachts/Antarctic research camps/airplanes/safari/5 star and 1 star accommodations - and this has yet to fail.�
Aug 28, 2016
RBowen Getting back to the original post, I just want to use my Tesla UMC to also charge a Chevy Volt in my own garage. Where can I buy a UMC to J1772 adapter? I only have one nema 14-50 outlet. Thanks.�
Aug 28, 2016
GSP Quick Charge Powe was developing a TS02 to J1772 adapter. I don't know if they still are or not, but perhaps they may offer one in the future.
It would come in handy for my Chevy Volt, since I now have two HPWC and a UMC. I plan to get the UMC cord extended to 45 feet by QCP. It would be extra useful if it also could charge J1772 cars.
GSP�
Aug 29, 2016
Rocky_H If you are already getting QCP to extend your UMC, why don't you just have them convert it to a J1772? that's also something they do. They call it the "Jesla".�
Aug 29, 2016
davewill That's really the only solution available at this time. You can then easily use Tesla'a J1772 adapter to charge Tesla cars. Also, by all means ask Tony at QCP about the other adapter, he might be getting closer.�
Aug 29, 2016
GSP I prefer to keep the Tesla plug for two reasons:
1) I will use the UMC with the Tesla, except in rare cases. The tesla plug is nicer, with a button to open the charge port, and no adapter to fiddle with.
2) An adapter would also let me use either one of my two HPWCs with the Volt or a visitors car.
GSP�
Sep 2, 2016
Rush www.TucsonEV.com will also convert your UMC into a J1772 EVSE, they charger only $90 for the J1772 Plug, $20 to make the crimped connections and shipping back to you.�
Sep 10, 2016
David99 It's happening!
JDapter by Quick Charge Power LLC�
Sep 11, 2016
AmpedRealtor @David99 Such wonderful news! Now I can put my HPWC back on Plugshare and make it available to Leaf owners!�
Sep 11, 2016
David99 So far it's just an announcement to a Kickstarter project. It will probably several months before they are available. As a Tesla owner I don't really need this adapter, but It will be useful to every other EV.�
Sep 11, 2016
pchilds I will be getting two, one for home, now I can share the circuit between the model S and the RAV4 EV, using the new HPWC, and one to keep in the RAV4 EV for destination charging. I can boost the 200 volts, at most destination charging locations, up to 250 volts and get the full 10kW charge rate. 40 amps at 250 volts = 50 amps at 200 volts.�
Sep 11, 2016
hcsharp How are you going to boost the volts from 200 to 250?�
Sep 11, 2016
pchilds I have a autotransformer, in a box.�
Sep 12, 2016
Rocky_H Talk about "padding your resume"! They have a bullet point list of the types of charging hardware this will work with. It lists 5 items, but they are just different names for 2 items.�
1/1/2015
guest OK, but you can't use a transformer to boost the output voltage 25% without also boosting the input amperage by 25% (assuming 100% efficiency, which it won't be). For example if you try to pull 40A into your car at 250v with your transformer, then the primary side at 200v will pull over 50A. That would be fine on EVSEs setup for greater than 50A charging. Otherwise you would either trip a breaker or cause the wall connector to stop charging or some other problem. It sounds like you already know this and will be pulling 50A into your transformer only with EVSEs that are set up for over 50A? I'd like to see pictures of this setup when/if you do it. A 40A transformer is quite large and heavy.�
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