Apr 25, 2014
JRP3 It need not power the car endlessly, just replace a portion of daily miles. I average less than 20 miles a day which means a significant portion of my driving could come from on board solar even with today's panels.�
Apr 25, 2014
Kitt I calculated for Germany. Assuming you drive 60km/day. Charging your car every weekend 2 full sun periods a 5kw peak PV could supply you for 6 months in the middle of the year 100%, but 50% the other darker months. 75% in total assuming you charge it every weekend ofr the whole sunlight period.
A 5 kw PV brings 5000-5800 kwh/year(west germany). Driving 10,000km/year means 2,1MWh for a Tesla, 1,5MWh for Model E perhaps. :love:
Apropos batteries. Here the latest scientific progress in nano silicon anodes for Li ion cells. :love:
�
Apr 29, 2014
Kitt HEy you BEV freaks.
Just wanted to share my new thoughts on solar PV for BEV in future.
Since on a BEV you have only 4m� of surface the best PV panels to put onto it woud be multi-jnuction solar cells in combination ultrathin meta-material lenses for concentrated PV
Only flaw i s PV cell use Indium, but you would only need 4m� and those layers are 500nm thick. So no worry about that even if one day 100million cars get produced anually.
So that way you could really expect to have real 2kw peak power in summer. Future BEV will weigh only half of Models S.
Lucky if you have a non shaded parking lot. :love:�
Apr 29, 2014
derekt75 The question I have is: why?
Why would you mount one on your car when you can mount one on your roof at home?
The fixed one can probably generate more power for less cost and therefore saves more CO2 emissions per dollar than the mobile one.
If you have a car-mounted one you can add an extra 1% to your range and you don't need to plug your car in when you go on a 4 month long vacation, but these seem like rather minor benefits compared to the improved kWh per dollar ratio of a fixed solution.�
Apr 29, 2014
Kitt If i could provide 2KW of PV on my car (50%efficiency,4m�) and i let it stand for 10h in the full bright sun and my car weighs only a ton i could drive 200kms(10kwh/100km)! I could travel whereever i want to without depending on a plug for the life of the battery/PV.
I could make an awesome roadtrip around the world.
Dont think in dollars, think about the value of such a car.
Imagine a self driving self sustained speaking BEV connected to the web giving you electricity also for VR or making coffee.
It searches on its own the best place to charge sun much like a horse that goes eating grass drinking water at a stop.
Its basically alive, a ****in robot.
�
Apr 29, 2014
dsm363 So you would only drive at night then if you had to let your car sit in the sun in ideal circumstances for 10 hours a day? The Model S weighs 4,600lbs too. Where would the 4m^2 square panel go with a pano roof? How good would it look? I think you are going off into areas that are beyond simply a solar panel on a Model S.�
Apr 30, 2014
Kitt Did i mention somewhere Model S? Guys you have no fantasy. You almost sound like ICE-heads. NO NO NO. AAAAAAAAAH!�
Apr 30, 2014
GSP This is not the optimum use of solar panels compared to putting them on your roof, I agree. But, like Kitt says, have some imagination. John Peterson keeps telling us that electric cars are not the optimum use of batteries. Stop-start systems and electric-assist bicycles are. He is right, but we do not live solely to use batteries in an optimum manner. Same for lots of other things, including solar cells.
Think what having another charging option would do for you. Not everyone would want it, but it could be a great thing for others. This is somewhat analogous to the dual charger option. Dual chargers are not needed for overnight charging, and supercharging can take care of most trips. But, for some owners, dual chargers can be very nice to have every now and then.
Also, 1.4 kW 120V charging is not so hot, but can be helpful in some situations. It is good to have the option. If you could automatically have 1.4 kW charging whenever the car is in the sun, it could be very handy.
GSP�
Apr 30, 2014
dsm363 Well the topic of this thread is 'Should Model S have a solar panel'. Should we moved your comments to its own off topic thread about future technologies and 50% efficient solar panels?
While it would be nice you'd have to have it cheap enough, efficient enough and make it look good for people to accept. You're probably better off taking that money and putting it on your house as said or building out the Supercharging network or hotel charging network instead.�
Apr 30, 2014
JRP3 The title of this thread did.�
Apr 30, 2014
JRP3 Elon has not yet put a solar panel on a Tesla, maybe you should chastise him as well for lack of vision
A 4 wheeled bicycle with a plastic body is not really a "car".�
Apr 30, 2014
Doug_G You're not taking account of the fact that the solar panels need to be aimed at the sun to achieve full output. A car is unlikely to provide such a platform. At best the panels will on average be facing straight up. There goes 30% of your power even at high noon.
The problem here isn't lack of imagination; it's not facing up to reality. Solar panels on a car is a marginal application at best. You would be better of filling the trunk with panels and a fold-out truss to hold them. You park the car, deploy the array, and charge all day. That might actually produce some usable amount of power.�
Apr 30, 2014
dsm363 perpetual motion is the next step I guess.�
Apr 30, 2014
rlang59 Maybe a team up with the alternator guy from the other thread is in order.�
Apr 30, 2014
ZsoZso The tiny one on the Leaf spoiler is a gimmick for sure. On the other hand a flexible PV-cell covered hood+roof on the S would be able to provide enough power to combat the "vampire drain" when the car is parked on the sun. Sure not much, but I do not see the cost would be so high compared to the price of the vehicle.�
Apr 30, 2014
NigelM Mod Note: One post got moved to snippiness�
Apr 30, 2014
Kitt serious?�
Apr 30, 2014
brianman Note the title of the thread. Given that, most participants will naturally be discussing the topic in the context of Model S.
Now, if you want to open a wider discussion about "if I wanted to create a solar powered car using some inspiration and perhaps parts from Model S" that might be an interesting thread. But getting upset or annoyed because people stay on-topic seems silly.
- - - Updated - - -
Doug, I think you may be on to something...
A "portable, sun-powered tanning bed transport" might be an interesting kickstarter project to appeal to the crisp skin crowd. You just need a cart, panels, mirrors, a motor, and a willing tester. Right?
For those that have to go even farther distances, they could tan during a hyperloop journey.�
Apr 30, 2014
derekt75 I can fantasize about a lot.
I am an engineer, however, and I therefore consider dollars when evaluating a lot of fantastic possibilities.
With today's PV technology, a reasonably priced solar panel on the roof of a Model S will not affect driving habits. For $5k, you could generate a handful of miles (6?) in the summer. For $5k, you could generate nearly 10 kWh in the summer on a fixed roof angled toward the sun.
I do lack the imagination to understand why the former would be better.
I don't think that Elon would be disappointed in this attitude, either. It seems to me that Elon has done a very good job in pointing out how current technologies can be put together to create something incredibly useful. I don't think that Elon has really created dramatic improvements in any particular core technology. He hasn't invented a new battery chemistry, rocket fuel, or photovoltaic material. His magic is in a sensible combination of core technologies (e.g., how to wire up a bunch of Panasonic batteries into a kickass vehicle) rather than any breakthroughs in physics or chemistry.
In fact, I think he's been harshly critical of those that are expecting a miracle to happen in new technology. You might be able to imagine nuclear fusion providing cheap energy to electrolyze water into fuel cell fuel, but the technology isn't here today and Elon is calling them fool cells. You might be able to imagine a supercapacitor that has a large energy density, but the technology isn't here and Elon is investing heavily in a Li-ion gigafactory. The technology to generate a meaningful amount of power on your car's roof at a reasonable cost isn't here today, and Elon isn't going to waste his company's money by investing in something that simply doesn't make sense without some technology breakthrough.
Imagination is important, but a dose of realism is important as well.
my $0.02,
Derek�
Apr 30, 2014
Kitt you might have missed that i talked about future BEVs and PV technologies. Assuming what if......then...... what could be......
Reading carefully is equally important. :wink:
It wasnt my intention to piss people off. Sorry about that.�
Apr 30, 2014
dsm363 Are you searcher by any chance from Tesla forums?
I admire your enthusiasm but you have to understand where others are coming from too. We too can dream up wonderful uses of future technologies but this is the wrong thread for that. This is about putting solar panels that exist today in a Model S today.�
May 1, 2014
derekt75 Oh I'm not pissed off. Sorry if you got that impression. I should use more smileys. :smile:
It's just that while "what if" sorts of things can be interesting, they're not as useful to me. If you can assume anything, you can get any result. If you assume that you can find solar panels that can convert 50% of the incident solar radiation to electricity and that you can cover your entire car with them for not too much money, then yeah, it's probably a good idea. I've got no problems with dreams as long as they're identified as dreams.
Given the current state and expected near-term future of PV technology, solar panels don't make sense on a Model S. I think that's the point of many of us in this thread.
If you want to start off by assuming that your dreams are true (50% efficient inexpensive panels), well then yeah, you can get any result you want. Dreams can be useful. But for every 1 dream that pans out, 100 fizzle out.�
May 1, 2014
EVFest Sure - and at some point in the future when the 50% Efficient Solar Panels are available, flexible, and handy - you can get something of value from this small area. Gizmag suggests that time might not be so far in the future - "Four-junction, four-terminal stacked solar cell hits 43.9 percent efficiency" But - if you have a situation that only needs a mile or two a day - current panels could offer some value, and Panasonic Cells just announced their HIT Panels at something like 25.6% Efficient, a long way from the usual 12-14% Levels from a few decades back!�
May 1, 2014
JRP3 With apologies for being repetitive, allow me to stimulate your imagination. The panels on the car eliminate any vampire drain and enable a car to be parked indefinitely, say at an airport, while gaining range instead of losing it. The panels at home are worthless in that case. They are also worthless on my home, in the woods. And a solar panel option would be the only option you can choose, other than aero rims, that will actually provide you with any additional range. For example the pano roof option reduces range when open, and by increasing cooling or heating loads in extreme temperatures.
So no, solar panels on the car are not the most optimal use of solar panels on a cost per kWh basis, but I'd argue that they could be the most optimal use of your money when choosing options for the car.�
May 1, 2014
EarlyAdopter The pano roof also reduces range a tiny bit by weighing more than the standard aluminum roof.
Which brings up another point to consider when working out the break even point for solar panels on a Model S - energy loss from hauling XXlbs of extra weight in panels around all of the time in return for energy gain from the panels some of the time. Any gain you calculate out of the panels has to be reduced by the impact of the extra weight. Could be small, but so are the gains from car solar.�
May 1, 2014
dsm363 I could see it being an option someday. Add a few miles whole parked outside at work for example. They have many other things to work on for the Model S first though.�
May 2, 2014
JRP3 Weight is less of a concern in long distance steady state driving, where aero is the main factor, and thin film solar should weigh less than a pano roof, and not significantly more than the standard roof.�
May 2, 2014
brianman The title of the thread is "Should Model S have a solar panel". Assuming we want to keep it that broad...
Suppose security was not a concern. Perhaps a contraption that comes out the sunroof and unfolds a flower-like array of 40 panels might provide an interesting amount of power generation/capture.�
May 2, 2014
JRP3 That sounds like a rather expensive, complex, and possibly heavy, contraption.�
May 2, 2014
rlang59 I bet it would look cool when it is opening.�
May 2, 2014
roblab For that matter, *I* weigh more than the pano roof. Many of us, if we were all that worried about the energy cost of hauling around extra weight, might get a lot more serious about a diet. :smile:�
May 2, 2014
evme I don't think it will be worth it from a cost or efficiency point of view any time this decade.
And to power fully on solar you probably would need one of these:
�
May 2, 2014
EarlyAdopter Ha!
We jest, but drivers starving themselves has become a real problem in F1 racing.
Adrian Sutil: lighter Formula 1 drivers blocking weight rule change - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com
F1 Driver Jean-Éric Vergne Was Hospitalized After Starving Himself
F1 drivers dangerously losing weight to improve performance - Autoblog
When every pound counts and you've shaved off all you can from the car...
But back on topic, all I'm saying is when factoring "at what point would it be economical to add solar panels" you have to include the added weight.�
May 3, 2014
evme When solar paint becomes commercial viable.�
May 3, 2014
GSP I think this would be a useful option when PV technology will allow about 1,000 W from the area that can fit on the Model S roof, without optimum orientation to the sun.
Best left to the aftermarket however, Tesla needs to concentrate elsewhere.
GSP
PS. Checking the first solar panel that comes up on google, it would take about six 40" X 60" panels at about $300 each. Hard to fit on a car roof.�
May 3, 2014
JRP3 I agree, I don't think a solar panel will help sell any more cars so certainly not a priority.�
May 3, 2014
Kitt BEVs need to get lighter in general. I think for the future it would be possible by using more CFk that a car like a golf could weigh 500kg.
i hope that with the advent of the EC manufacturers will make cars lighter again. Concentrating more on driving properties.
Here a first good example for a BEV design. It uses only 50 parts for the chassis instead of 300 like for a normal ICE are used.
http://www.gizmag.com/ineco-ev-less-than-ton/29414/�
Apr 5, 2015
Rheazombi I actually quite like this idea, lol.
...
Sorry to necromance a year old thread, but I've always liked the idea of solar integrated with an EV.
I know the thread is mostly very negative toward the idea of solar panels, but I would love it.
I live in an apt with no covered parking and no access to a plug, it would be a nice, easy way for me to counteract vampire drain. I would only need the panels to provide maybe 5-10 miles a day and I'd be happy as a clam.
I've also been in a situation where I had to leave my ICE car in an airport for 6 months due to traveling abroad (yes, it needed a new 12V battery afterwards). There is literally nothing I could do, now that I have a Tesla. I simply can't go on a trip like that now that I have to babysit my car. You people in your nice houses with driveways/garages and your lovely solar panels!
I understand the thread is also mostly about if it's possible TODAY, but I couldn't find any other threads on TMC discussing it in any other broad sense, so this might as well be the thread to talk about hypotheticals as well.
I see this an an option that people could choose, like autopilot, fancy rims, dual chargers, etc. For many people, those things are a waste of money, and for others they are essential. Thus, many people would see no point in paying $2000-5000 for a solar roof, but I WOULD. It would have to have a certain level of ability though, I don't think Fisker's roof would be worth it for me if 200 miles a year is true. Again, my threshold would be 5-10 miles a day.
Fantasy time:
* Best option: Translucent cells that go beneath the pano glass and run along the entire pano, and down the rear window as well. Since my side windows are also tinted, maybe those could be translucent solar cells instead of tint as well. This would be a nice amount of surface area, IMO.
* Good option: Would also settle for non-translucent cells that are an option INSTEAD of a pano roof. Not see through, look like regular panels, only cover the same area that a standard roof would. Seamless, non-raised integration.
* Comedy option: I would even appreciate a ridiculous fold out solar canopy that pops out of the frunk/trunk/roof. The aesthetics would be ridiculous though and you couldn't park next to anyone. This option would be awesome in an apocalypse scenario though! I just want to see some crazy prepper guy make this as a proof of concept. I'm sure he could sell a few.
* All options should actually top off the main battery and not just power some dinky fan/help the 12V.
* All options should cost maybe $2500-5000. The lower/higher cost should be directly related to how advanced and efficient the cells are, not just cus the expensive one was marked way up.
I'm aware any of these options would involve some serious R&D, and I know Tesla is already overwhelmed by the task of integrating an AUX jack�
Apr 5, 2015
Johan Whaddayoumean comedy? You didn't get that option for your Roadster???
Lotus Mobile - Portable Solar Charging System - Electric Cars Report
Edit: Sorry, didn't see the link posted earlier in the thread.�
Apr 5, 2015
Rheazombi That image is inherently hilarious. What I don't get about that thing is... where does it go when it's folded up? It's not something you can take with you, therefore, I don't get why it needs to fold up at all. In any case, the Model S has much more room to hide foldable panels than the Roadster. No need for some wacky pole either!
On a more serious note: The trunk well (under the floor in the back) is a really nice size and I can imagine fitting a dozen or so panels in there. Some nice system that integrates the panels together, with a way to charge the battery directly, with the panels maybe propped up on foldable c-stands and you could power the car if you ever ran out of juice in the middle of nowhere! (Yes, this is slightly absurd, but I believe it is possible with TODAY'S technology)�
Apr 5, 2015
aaronw The Fisker Karma has a large solar panel on the roof. I follow the forums there and for the amount of power generated and the cost of the panel it is estimated that the return on investment is around 500 years. The amount of power produced by the large panel on the roof is negligible compared to the amount of power the car draws. Plus, it would negate being able to have the panoramic roof. I would much rather have the panoramic roof than a useless solar panel.
Having fold-out panels from the trunk is just asking for trouble and would be a reliability nightmare and would certainly not be worth the excess cost and complexity. Translucent panels also are typically fairly inefficient as well.�
Apr 5, 2015
JRP3 Useless?
I'd say a car you can't leave unattended for extended periods is far more "useless" than a pano roof which serves little practical purpose, (and also reduces range when actually in use). Just because the Karma panel is over priced doesn't mean a Tesla panel needs to be.�
Apr 5, 2015
Raffy.Roma This Lotus Mobile looks cool. Think to get it one day for my future electric car.�
Apr 5, 2015
aaronw Making a curved panel like that is quite expensive and I certainly would not consider the pano roof useless, especially when it increases the head room, plus it is just nice to open it on a nice day. Leaving a car at an airport for 6 months is downright dumb when it is far less expensive to take a shuttle to the airport (for a lot less money) without having to worry about a car getting broken into or vandalism. As it is, more and more airports have spots with 110v outlets where EVs can remain plugged in. I certainly wouldn't want to leave my model S parked out in the weather like that for six months.�
Apr 5, 2015
JRP3 It need not be.
Great, that's why it's an option. I have no use for sun roofs, moon roofs, or pano roofs.
Sometimes things happen which may require such. I've left ICE's sitting for longer than that for various reasons with little concern.�
Apr 5, 2015
aaronw I have left an ICE sitting for 6 months also and ended up with a dead battery (and it was charged and desulfated monthly). I still say one would be crazy to leave any 70K car sitting in an airport parking lot under the weather for six months is idiotic. That's why there's these things called shuttles, which are a lot cheaper as well for that length of time. Besides, given the power draw of the Tesla I doubt an inexpensive solar solution would keep the 12v battery charged, and the 12v battery only lasts 12-16 months anyway due to how much power is drawn. I'm on my 3rd battery in 2 years already.�
Apr 5, 2015
dhanson865 Yes the Model S should have a solar panel, when they refresh it in 2020 with the Model S 2.0 rev.
Maybe an expensive option for the mid cycle refresh in 2017 and standard on the 2020 full refresh?
Or maybe an expensive option on the 2020 and a standard feature on the 2023?�
Apr 5, 2015
Rheazombi Wow, way to judge without knowing my situation whatsoever. I have no dedicated parking at home. Pray tell, how can I leave my car unattended on a street in Boston for 6 months when I would have to move my car every 2 weeks for street sweeping?
Also, your last sentence is absurd, as I park her outside every day of her life (again, I have no garage). She's doing fine.�
Apr 6, 2015
caddieo I once had an Audi A8 with a solar panel in the sun roof. Functionally, it wasn't worth spit so I didn't have it repaired when it conked out.�
Apr 6, 2015
JRP3 That doesn't make any sense. A healthy lead acid battery with no load on it should easily hold a charge for 6 months, even more so if it's being charged regularly. I'd suspect your equipment may have been over charging it or something.�
Apr 6, 2015
Electric700 I like the 2017 option idea/standard on 2020, though perhaps even by 2017 it will be much more economical. Solar panel costs are coming down.�
Apr 6, 2015
Doug_G It's still a silly idea. Even if the solar panels come way down in price, can be formed to the shape of the car, and don't weigh much... many people aren't going to want a black car with funny silver stripes on it. And it's still not going to produce usable amounts of energy - sunlight isn't that power dense. You're far better off mounting the solar cells on your garage.�
Apr 6, 2015
dhanson865 Your garage isn't at your work. If you have no control over your work installing solar. Adding a small panel to the car is better than nothing. Presumably if you live in the right parts of the country your house, shed, yard are all chock full of solar panels before you get a Tesla with a solar panel on it.
I totally agree put in more solar PV at your house before you worry about your car. I also think it's OK for this thread to look forward and ask the question how many years from now before Tesla offers a solar panel on any of their cars.�
Apr 6, 2015
JRP3 Done
Done
Done
I don't know why people think solar panels are so expensive, heavy, and can't be formed into a mild curve. Tesla might even know a company from which to get cells at a discount...
That's why it would be an option, and frankly I thought the panel on the Karma looked quite nice. I'd be happy to have something like that on the hood of the car as well for even more power delivery. Also, I'm not sure the "silver stripes" have to be silver in color.
Preventing the car from vampiring away into uselessness is a usable amount of energy. It would also take some of the load off the 12V battery, prolonging it's life, and possibly avoiding being stuck by a bad 12V battery.
Except as has been pointed out repeatedly when you aren't at your garage and/or don't have a garage.�
Apr 7, 2015
Electric700 Great responses JRP3. I saw that in good sunlight, the Fisker Karma could deliver an extra 5 miles of EV range a week just from the solar panels. With more efficient panels that they have now, the Tesla Model S might get even more EV mileage back. That could translate to 260+ EV miles a year just from one solar panel on the car!
It might not mean that much to some, but for me that's close to a full charge (over a year), so I would definitely like to see it as an option.�
Apr 7, 2015
aaronw The Fisker solar panel also cost around $5,000 to make due to it being curved the way it is (which they also patented). It would be far more economical to use that money to install fixed panels on the home which will provide well over 260+ EV miles per year. I'm having solar installed on my house right now. Each panel retails for around $250 online and doesn't have to deal with curved surfaces. Each Enphase inverter is around $140 and a trunk cable isn't all that expensive. Also, the solar on the house doesn't care if you're parked in the shade or not. The solar panels on the Karma are a gimmick that looks cool but from a practical and financial point of view it's rather pointless. The ROI for the Fisker solar panel is around 500 years whereas the ROI on home solar is more like 6-7 years where I live.�
Apr 7, 2015
JRP3 Sigh...comparisons with conventional panels at home are irrelevant. It's like arguing that a skylight at home would get more use and is cheaper than the pano roof on the car. Additionally, what Fisker spent on making the roof panel has little bearing on the actual costs for Tesla. Tesla already designed a glass roof with a retractable section, no way would making that a single piece with solar panels cost all that much more. They could integrate two of these or something similar, though as I mentioned I'm quite sure Tesla could get something even better, at a better price http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IK19VF6?psc=1
- - - Updated - - -
There was also an aftermarket solar roof kit developed for the Prius back around 2008, and it retailed for $3.5K http://www.wired.com/2008/12/the-solar-prius/�
Apr 7, 2015
aaronw The cost will still be high. For one thing there are a lot of differences between the panoramic roof and solar. For one thing, you would need a totally different type of glass that lets through as much light as possible which means it will also let through a lot more heat. Then comes the problem of keeping the solar cells and the interior of the car from getting too hot. It is not a simple or cheap solution, and the solar cells would be only a small part of the cost. You also need to design the solar system so that it can stand up to the vibration and weather encountered when driving. The panoramic roof is a much simpler problem to solve. In any event, it will be quite costly to implement for a marginal benefit. Stationary panels don't have to worry so much about heat since the glass covering the cells is often a lot thinner and the there is plenty of ventilation behind the panels. High temperatures reduce panel efficiency and reliability. Solar cells age more rapidly when hot, roughly doubling the speed at which they age for every 18F so heat buildup is a major problem when integrating solar cells into a vehicle roof.�
Apr 8, 2015
Kilowatt I'm hope Tesla and Solarcity will offer panels and home batteries to buffer daytime sun for nighttime charge?�
Apr 8, 2015
Rheazombi I'm fine with the price being high as long as you get what you pay for. People spend thousands of bucks already just for some fancy rims that do nothing (no offense), it would just be cool to have the option for a solar power roof (my threshold for usefulness is 5-10 miles a day. I ain't asking for a personal fusion reactor).
Comparisons with the Fisker are interesting but not necessarily relevant. That car is quite old now, and since it failed as a company I don't know how wise it is to compare something Tesla would R&D vs something by Fisker.�
Apr 8, 2015
JRP3 That may be the first legitimate issue anyone has brought up, though I'm not sure it's a major problem. Stationary panels are expected to operate for 30+ years, vehicles typically for half as long.
Which will still do nothing for you when you are away from home or can't put solar on your apartment.�
Apr 8, 2015
Danal Avoiding long-term-vampire-when-parked syndrome is a quite nice use case for solar. If you already have a Pano roof, adding solar to the back half seems fairly easy. Google shows TONS of flex panels, ranging from pre-made kits (which would probably not work) to OEM stuff. Here is one of many examples: PowerFilm They may or may not have exactly what should go on a Tesla roof; there are plenty of others if they don't.
That leaves a couple of questions:
1) Is there enough area to actually gather enough solar to indefinitely offset vampire?
2) Exactly how should the power be injected back into the car? Directly at the battery? There are a ton of "solar panel>controller>12V Lead-Acid battery" available off the shelf. Any of them suitable?�
Apr 8, 2015
tga Admittedly, "downright dumb" is a bit extreme, but even "economy" parking at Logan will run you ~$500/month. If you don't have to fly out right now and can plan ahead, you should be able to store the car, indoors, on a 120V maintenance charge, for a lot less.
I know people in the greater Boston area who store cars over the winter for a lot less. If you ever need to head out for that length of time, PM me and I'll try to put you in touch with some more reasonable storage options.�
Apr 8, 2015
Rheazombi Some clarifications I would like to make regarding this scenario:
Thanks for the idea of using a storage facility, I'll have to look into that. How much cheaper would it actually be though? The Logan price sucked, but I was able to get them to cut it in half once I explained my scenario to the garage manager. It ended up being a drop in the bucket compared to the rent I paid on an empty Boston Back Bay apt for 6 months, not to mention the cost of the trip itself.
In my scenario, I DID have to fly out within 3 days and storing the car was the furthest thing from my mind. Was far more concerned with packing, setting up hotels, etc.
In my case I didn't know how long I would be gone. It was supposed to be 3 weeks but became 6 months. Again, storing the car would have been pointless for all I knew.
I used 6 months as an example because it had just happened to me and so I could relate a specific experience and give a real world example about how things aren't always so easy. But by no means would a solar roof only have helped MY weird situation. People park for 1-2 months all the time in long term parking at the airport. Storing their car in a facility miles out of town would be a needless hassle to them. These people would benefit greatly having a solar roof of some kind.
Not to mention, the vampire drain I dealt with this winter was bonkers. Even a little bit would have helped.
In any case, aaronw was being unnecessarily rude and condescending especially since he doesn't know me from Adam. In fact, there is way too many assumptions in this thread about people's lifestyles. Some people would find this feature incredibly useful and some would find it incredibly redundant.
Sorry if this post is slightly derailing.�
Aug 17, 2015
omgwtfbyobbq I don't think it's a huge issue, especially since the flexible CIGS panels seem to be in the ~$.50c-$.75c/W range. Even if they go kaput after ~15 years, that's still 2c/kWh, which is great for charging on the go. At the same time, stationary panels are usually warrantied for output at 30 years, not functionality. They'll produce power for decades after that, just at reduced levels. Granted, the advantage for smaller more efficient cars is better. Probably something like 10-miles of range per day for a Leaf/i/etc... But every little bit helps even for larger vehicles.�
Aug 18, 2015
Khatsalano I just wouldn't want one ... why would I ever park my Tesla outside, under the hot sun and in the elements, unless I had no other choice?
- K�
Aug 19, 2015
smilepak If a Prius and a Leaf can have solar power, why not on a Tesla....�
Nov 18, 2015
Beckler The more I think of this, I think it should be an option in the future. With solar city now claiming 22% efficiency and if we imagine the entire car covered (hood, roof, maybe even rear window option too - have a rear view camera only...is that legal?�
Nov 18, 2015
aaronw Putting that much solar on a car will be hideously expensive since unlike rooftop panels the car is curved. Add to it the fact that it needs to stand up to hail and the elements. Additionally, car mounted solar is far from optimal. Rooftop solar is typically pointed towards the sun, i.e. south in the US. It has been estimated that the solar installed on the Fisker Karma cost around $5000 and that's just in the roof. It only provides around 100 watts of power. I read the ROI is around 500 years and it adds at most around 1/2 a mile of range per day. Adding it to the hood would be a problem since you don't want it to crack when hit by rocks and whatnot. I don't think it even charges the main battery. It just keeps the 12v battery topped off and helps cool the interior of the car.
For the amount of money it would cost to add it to the car you could buy quite a few panels and microinverters.�
Nov 18, 2015
Rocky_H Apples and oranges. Solar panels are in two different categories: rigid flat silicon panels or thin film solar.
Flat panels: high energy efficiency, but heavy and not flexible, so limited installation conditions
Thin film: low energy efficiency, but thin and flexible, so mountable on many types of surfaces.
That 22% you�re quoting is for rigid rooftop panels. Thin film solar, like you would have to use on curved surfaces of a car, is nowhere near that efficient.�
Nov 19, 2015
JRP3 You mean just like the pano roof?
I wouldn't use anything done by Fisker as an example of what something might cost or how it would perform.
If you are encountering rocks and whatnot that could crack a solar panel those rocks would be denting your aluminum hood quite severely.
And that helps the vampire drain when not plugged in how?�
Nov 19, 2015
brkaus Once the self parking/driving on private property is working... The car can realign itself to the sun through the day.�
Nov 19, 2015
MorrisonHiker Perhaps the air suspension could be used to tilt the car towards the sun as well. :wink:�
Nov 19, 2015
aaronw Unless you're using the inefficient thin-film solar cells, normal solar cells are extremely brittle, unlike aluminum which will deform and return to its original shape (unless deformed too much). I've already had my windshield cracked by a rock and my replacement windshield required repair a year later (same drive to Reno). Replacing the hood would be far more expensive. The panoramic roof is far less likely to be damaged by rocks, but that also happens.
If you're frequently leaving your car unplugged for extended amounts of time then an EV is probably not the right car for you. The vampire drain has been reduced quite a bit and I'm sure there's plenty of room to further reduce it. If you're in an area that gets snow solar will be useless, especially since the batteries must be heated and solar will do little to help there, especially if covered by snow.�
Nov 20, 2015
Candleflame Regarding the effectiveness. My parents have got a few solar panels on their boat. One is 1m x 30cm (with some soft enclosure around it) and one of these panels produces about 180w when the sun shines. You could probably easily fit about 4 of those on the car roof, and maybe a few more on the car if its propery enclosed in the aluminium chassis. On the grand scheme of things thats not an aweful lot really...
One of those panels is about 200 euros or so.�
Nov 20, 2015
techmaven I think we should not talk about a solar panel option as actually charging the high voltage traction battery. That ends up being silly.
Instead, there is a very real problem with the load on the 12v battery. The BMS is running all the time. The infotainment stack with the cell stack is running, either some of time or all the time in order to communicate with Tesla and the smartphone apps. This amounts to about 40 watts. Given the relatively small 12v lead acid battery, this is a big drain and periodically, the car has to switch on the high voltage battery to charge the 12v battery. I think solar panel option would help this issue tremendously. Then "always connected" cell option + BMS might be say, 50 watts. That's easily doable. We already have a glass roof with the panoramic roof option - so the major expense of the glass is already done in that option. We just need about a 100-150 watt panel at STD which means it can realistically pull in 50 watts in all sorts of conditions.�
Nov 27, 2015
bxr140 Silly depends on context. Current and near term technology certainly doesn't make sense, but with 1kw per square meter (more or less) of solar energy hitting the earth, at some point we'll end up with the ability to harvest several kWh a day through our cars. Especially as vehicle efficiencies increase, that could be enough to cover many peoples' daily commute.�
Nov 28, 2015
Discoducky
Hmm, that option has been removed from the site...�
Nov 28, 2015
roblab Interesting how this discussion never seems to go away. After years of rehashing, it always ends up: It won't work.
Any of you that want solar on your car, hey, go get a small panel at an RV shop and tape it to your roof (like they do on the Red Green Show) and wire it up. You'll figure it out pretty quick.
The reason you won't find one built that way by Tesla is because it's DUMB and Tesla doesn't do dumb.�
Nov 28, 2015
JRP3 Tesla does do "dumb", like a car that will discharge itself into oblivion if left unplugged. A solar panel would prevent that. That's not dumb.�
Nov 28, 2015
SW2Fiddler Answer: Yes.
Lots of them.
On the carport or roof of the house.�
Nov 28, 2015
JRP3 Different topic, and does nothing for vampire load when the car is not at home.�
Nov 28, 2015
jcaspar I agree. I think the only reason to do this currently is marketing and a coolness factor for those unaware of how little power it develops, particularly in a underground garage.
If we are talking possible future technology, I will take a fusion reactor before high efficiency flexible solar panels!�
Nov 28, 2015
dhanson865 Sure, if you don't mind getting a new 12v battery installed every year or two.
Personally I'd rather there be a small unoticable section of the pano roof with solar built in or if you choose the body colored roof put a small section of cells in the least noticeable position on top of the car. Use it to feed the 12v battery and let the main pack feed the 12v any time the solar isn't doing it.
I don't have any illusion that it'll extend my usable range driving. I just want a more reliable car that I don't have to disassemble or take the effort to hook up a desulfating battery charger several times a year.�
Nov 28, 2015
jcaspar My care just turned 2 years on original 12v battery. How many have you been through??
�
Nov 28, 2015
dhanson865 Here is a nice 200 post thread for you to read for starters
Near annual replacement of 12V battery is typical according to Tesla Service Tech�
Nov 29, 2015
JRP3 You mean like a pano roof, which delivers zero power, and in fact can cost additional power from extra loads on the HVAC, and increased wind resistance when open? Many options are simply marketing and a coolness factor that provide no real tangible benefit.
I don't think the panel needs to be flexible, just molded in the proper shape. Tesla may even know of a solar panel manufacturing plant with close ties that could make them cheaply...�
Nov 29, 2015
Johan But I so love looking up at the blue sky while driving. How dare you insult my precious and practical pano roof. In the summer the opening is so large that it's like having a light version of a convertible.
Also, if solar panels do get light, cheap and flexible enough to be on a car roof they're going to be mostly everywhere anyway and when that happens wireless charging in parking spots for trickle and maintain charges will make more sense.�
Nov 29, 2015
JRP3 Again, it doesn't need to be flexible if it's built specifically for the car, they are already light enough, (probably lighter than your pano roof), they are already cheap enough, (probably cheaper than your pano roof), and they exist now, unlike the wireless charging trickle parking spots that will probably not be ubiquitous in our lifetimes. The vehicle mounted solar panel will always be right where you need it, on the car, killing the vampire when no other power is available. Plus it's a safety feature to prevent people from staring at the sky while driving :wink:�
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét