Dec 13, 2013
lolachampcar Updated with Request for Bids
I would like to start by thanking everyone that took time to give me feedback on selling my wife�s S85. That information, combined with some valuable cost data on a similar repair, has provided a clear and compelling case for selling the car as is.
The car is now available for sale and delivery. I would like to solicit bids by email for the next four days at the close of which I will sit down with my wife and examine all of them in an attempt to pick the best buyer. This will be Tuesday afternoon. I prefer email over PM as I seem unable to manage the volume in my PM account. As mentioned earlier, it is my intention to to be fair throughout this process and disadvantage no one. I will make the car available for inspection throughout this process.
Information from seller:
The car has clear title without lien holder, is in our possession and is in my wife�s name.
The car can be delivered to the buyer as early as two days after the close of bidding and selection of a winning bid.
A successful bid should include a non-refundable deposit that (1) allows the buyer to rely on the purchase of the car and (2) allow the seller to rely on the sale so that the car can be removed from the market. It has been my past experience that these types of deposit are typically made within a few days of the successful bid and are routinely in the 10% range.
I would prefer all payments be made via wire transfer to Tesla referencing the order number for my wife�s replacement car.
Although not a mandatory requirement, it would be very helpful if the successful bidder would allow for my wife to remain in the car until the replacement arrives. If the buyer is kind enough to allow this, I would anticipate protections for the buyer such that the car remains in my wife�s name, on our insurance policy and there is a clear zero cost exit for the buyer should anything happen to the car during this time (like another accident ). Again, this is desirable for obvious reasons but is by no means a requirement of a successful bid.
My primary goals are to meet the buyer�s needs for value while fetching the best possible price for the car as is. I am open to any approach that helps to achieve both goals.
Thank You,
Bill Hart
bill
at
lolachampcar
with the obligatory dot com
Original Post
I tried to put this in the "classifieds" section but apparently that is being handled by a different mechanism which requires a PayPal account (which I no longer have - Spam).
My wife was hit yesterday (Dec. 12th) by an SUV pulling out of a parking lot. It was a glancing "Tbone" in that my wife was going about 20 mph and the SUV's plastic bumper smeared the aluminum on my wife's car from the passenger door mirror all the way back to the quarter panel just before the rear wheel. There was one small scratch on the rear wheel but nothing significant enough to have caused any damage to the wheel or the suspension. Both doors open and close, are sealed against the door seal, the windows go up and down and there is no additional wind noise in the car. In short, the damage is mostly cosmetic in nature and the car is perfectly drivable.
The car was a September delivery and has 3500 miles on it. I am considering placing an order for a replacement car and selling this car as is. It will come with a clean car fax and obvious accident damage. I would think at diminished value it would make for a very good project car. If you have a NASCAR bent to you and are only seen from the driver's side, you may well just leave the damage be as the car is perfectly functional as is.
Please contact me if you have any interest in the car as I would like to establish a baseline value for it as input to a buy new versus repair calculation.
Thanks,
Bill�
Dec 13, 2013
SamGarber Bill, sorry to hear about the accident. Hope your wife is okay!�
Dec 13, 2013
lolachampcar The car performed flawlessly with only a little lower back soreness.�
Dec 13, 2013
Langzaiguy About what price were you thinking?�
Dec 13, 2013
lolachampcar You can find a bunch of pics here-
2013 Tesla Model S85
I would think it would have to be North of $40K to make sense. That should be possible given an 85 KW/Hr battery is $40K referb and $50K new.�
Dec 13, 2013
SamGarber Seems like a small amount of damage to have 50% off or more from sticker price. Unless I am just not seeing it right in pictures.�
Dec 13, 2013
Langzaiguy Does it need a new battery then? Is it road worthy?�
Dec 13, 2013
nrcooled If my wife didn't just buy her car I would be all over this.
Good luck with the sale.�
Dec 13, 2013
mnx Did you read the first post?
�
Dec 13, 2013
SamGarber Seems like a lot of discount for not that much damage. Maybe I just can't appreciate how expensive it is to fix from the pictures.�
Dec 13, 2013
lolachampcar Here is what I've gathered so far-
Recent right rear quarter panel replacement and door touch up was $22K and the owner was offered $8K in diminished value (which he has rejected as estimates put the number more like $18K). I will be dealing with the same insurance company and the same body shop if I have it repaired. The car is basically $82K when you subtract the Federal Tax Credit. My damage is as above plus two doors so let's use $25K as a conservative number. 82-25-8=49K and those are very conservative numbers. Something North of $40K, which should be do-able, combined with a modest increase in both the repair and diminished value numbers and I can eat the rest as depreciation and the cost of driving on the road with other people. Think of it as a Stuff Happens tax. It sucks but it happens.
This only works if there is a home for the car. A do it yourself type or one with a friend at a body shop can replace the doors and work the rear quarter cost effectively. Sure, the repair will not be Tesla certified but then you will not have to pay $82K for the car.
This is the reason for posting, to see if my logic makes sense.�
Dec 13, 2013
jonjiv I'm interested. PM sent.�
Dec 14, 2013
lolachampcar For any interested party, I would be more than happy to make the car available to an independent appraiser should you have interest and want a better level of comfort in the car's condition.�
Dec 14, 2013
Alysashley79 Just out of curiosity....since it was the other persons fault for hitting your wife..why not allow their insurance to fix the car and then sell it as is. Yes I understand it would still be after accident diminished value etc but at least you'd get a little more out of it and it would look nice again to the buyer�
Dec 15, 2013
lolachampcar (1) I have spoken with the body shop that just completed a similar repair (rear quarter replace and minor door repair for $23K) and they described in detail how hard both the body shop and the owner had to work on State Farm to get the work completed correctly. I have no interest in spending six to eight weeks doing this. If I am going to spend my time working with State Farm, I prefer to do so in a way that has my wife exactly where she was the morning of the 12th, driving a new S85.
(2) The value equation consists of the car as it is now, the cost to repair, the diminished value and depreciation. My discussion with the insurance company will effectively be reduced to depreciation if I sell the car as is given that the insurance company is responsible for the repair and the diminished value. They can apportion between those two any way they see fit as I am only concerned about the total. I would prefer to reduce the conversation to depreciation where Tesla has defined the extreme ($1K/month $1/mile) then fight to get a reasonable repair then argue for diminished value based on "expert's opinion". Why would I want to put the effort into repairing the car if it is going to be sold?
Lastly, I suspect the overall value equation is better selling as is. I may be wrong here, but I suspect someone will buy this car and do something less than a full on Tesla certified repair or, for that matter, not repair it at all. If I do the repair, it will be north of $25K. A new buyer that chooses not to replace the rear quarter will not be anywhere near that number and will also benefit from the diminished value. Theoretically this increases the retail sale number as is plus the State Farm property damage element over a repaired car retail sale number.
I'm curious enough to test this theory as it seems the smartest overall way to minimize everyone's loss in both time and money. It is better for me as I do not have to spend my time on the repair tread mill, it is better for the buyer as they get the best possible value and ability to control repair costs and it is best for State Farm as it minimizes the combined PD and diminished value claim total. Regretfully, it would take a very forward thinking and capable State Farm adjuster to realize this and I do not think such a person exists in this day in age. Competence is a very rare quality.
A thought occurred to me at breakfast. As a potential buyer, would you prefer to buy a damaged car in the $45Kish range or the very same car repaired in the $70Kish range?�
Dec 15, 2013
Alysashley79 Lolachampcar. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of something like this.....would you allow....I'm asking because my husband is interested in your car. He's not to worried about the quarter panel more about the two doors.
Would you you allow someone to work with the insurance company on your behalf from a different state say we purchase the car from you move the car to a different state but don't transfer title until after the car is fixed (put something in writing etc) get the insurance to fix I'm only like I said the two doors couldn't really care less about the quarter panel just looks cosmetic and as long as that's truly all it is that's all I'd be after would you allow someone else to fight the insurance company on your behalf and you wouldn't have to? Then once it's done we transfer title but you'd be paid in full from the get go?�
Dec 15, 2013
lolachampcar I'm afraid that, if I am going to have success here, I will need to keep things as uncomplicated as possible.
Plus, I would think it would make more sense to pick up the car minus depreciation, diminished value and damage allowance and then mange the damage repair to the level and quality you require.�
Dec 15, 2013
David_Cary I think you have the right idea. I'd buy it and put the least into to make it acceptable. My problem is figuring out from a distance what it takes to fix the doors. I'd certainly pay north of $40k, I just can't tell how much based on pics.
This might shock people, but I'd probably get someone to massage the doors as best as possible. I'd live with an imperfect car if the discount is significant enough.
Logistically, I'd fly to WPB and drive it back. I guess I need to check the I-95 SC map.... I'm guessing that it is drivable for the ride home? Is there any extra noise from the doors?
I do have a relative in Wellington who could go check it out�
Dec 15, 2013
lolachampcar Wellington is close so that would work. I'm going to stop by the WPB Tesla Service Center to have them confirm there is only cosmetic damage (for the insurance company and my responsibility to mitigate additional loss).
If you were not going to put door shells on the car, I'd leave them exactly as they are
The SC map going up the East Coast sucks from Daytona (last SC) to something like North Carolina. There are a couple of threads about people making the trip and how they managed to charge. I do lament the lack of East Coast corridor coverage as originally promised "by the end of the year"
Lastly, there is no extra wind noise at all and the doors close soundly. I've run the windows up and down as a quick test and will repeat that in detail when I go by the Service Center.�
Dec 15, 2013
aznt1217 This is going to sell fast�
Dec 15, 2013
jeremy-s At that price, it's tempting just to have it for bad weather, driving to NYC, giving it to valets, letting people test drive�
Dec 15, 2013
qwk I can't believe this car is not sold yet. I wouldn't hesitate driving it as is. Too bad I have no need for a 2nd Model S.�
Dec 15, 2013
772 Hm, considering this. Do you plan to keep the car until your replacement MS arrives? Would love to see anything the SC gives you, to make sure battery/electronics are working fine (if they test that stuff).�
Dec 16, 2013
lolachampcar My wife and I start the conversation with State Farm (the at fault's insured) today. It will likely take through the holidays to have them examine the car sufficiently that I can sell it.
As for timing from that point on, it would make sense to keep it until the replacement car arrives in February (quoted delivery for the new car) EXCEPT for the impact that might have on diminished value. Specifically, Florida law states that damages be determined by the value of the car before and then directly after the damage; if repaired, then directly before the accident to after the repair. The absolute reference for pre-accident value is Tesla's demo sales model of $1K per month and $1/mile.
There is nothing I can do about the three months we have owned the car and 3500 miles she drove it up to the accident. That ship has sailed. I am simply exposed to that depreciation even though I had no intentions of selling the car prior to the accident. I will argue that I normally keep cars for four to five years and the depreciation I experience is typically $1/mile. I'm just not sure that will fly. What I do not want to do is pay $1K/month and $1/mile for the next few months while the new car comes in. If that were the case, I would sell the car now to control the accelerated depreciation and use a rental (which I would likely charge back to the insurance company). This will likely be the first topic of discussion thus I should know more soon.
An alternative would be to negotiate and close the sale with delivery in two months and an allowance back for mileage between now and then.�
Dec 16, 2013
lolachampcar Robert Tigmmell in the West Palm Beach Service Center took a look at the car a few minutes ago and agreed that there is no structural damage. PM me if you want his contact information.
Some video of windows and doors operating
�
Dec 16, 2013
drbobchen I'm interested. Private message sent. Thanks!�
Dec 16, 2013
lolachampcar I got my first call from State Farm today. Hopefully we can get an adjuster out to confirm the damage this week.
The math for sell damaged versus fix then sell is in favor of sell damaged. All I need to do is get SF to understand that.�
Dec 16, 2013
NotARichMan Bill,
From the title, it looks like this is pretty much a base S85. Are there any options added to the base package?
- - - Updated - - -
I just noticed the window sticker in the last picture... ignore my previous post.�
Dec 17, 2013
AnOutsider FL is a long trek sans-SC, but sent ya a PM�
Dec 17, 2013
lolachampcar One interested party got a local appraisal firm scheduled to look at the car. I'd be happy to make it available for independent appraisal so people are not just taking my word for it.
- - - Updated - - -
I have started a storm of interest in the car and fear I have not put enough thought into how to manage a fair and proper sale. I need help.
As it stands today, I have received enough documentation to be comfortable with my estimates on the �Tesla Certified� repair costs. This is the single largest unknown in the process. If I say it is $25K and State Farm says it is $7K then we have a fight on our hands. Luckily for me (and not necessarily the other MS owner) another forum member has just gone through a right rear quarter panel replacement to Tesla�s specifications. This damage was a sub-set of that on my wife�s car and was in excess of $22K. That is close enough to my estimate to make a convincing argument for State Farm saving well over $5K if I sell the car as is. Put differently, I am confident enough that the car can be sold as is to try to figure out just how to sell it.
I�ve gone back to my original post and reread it. Thank you to all that have contacted me with interest and aided in my establishing a baseline value or interest in the car. Contrary to my first post, I now believe the car�s CARFAX will indicate the payout by State Farm as they will likely report it. Apart from that, the remainder of the initial post has proven to be accurate. I will update that assessment with any information from independent appraisals.
With respect to the sale, there are a large number of interested parties. As the seller, I want to acknowledge the time and effort that many interest parties have put into looking at the car. I also want to conduct a fair sale that disadvantages no one. My original thought was to �Ebay it� but I think the interest is high enough here on TMC to keep it in the family. I would also prefer to deal with and sell to people I know. This is one of those rare opportunities where everyone can do well.
As the seller, I am interested the sale of the car plus the potential to continue to use the car until my wife�s replacement comes in. The use of the car is a consideration but is by no means controlling should the buyer need the car straight away. Is there a way to do a completely open and above board disposal of the car through this thread such that everyone is treated fairly? The last thing I want is anyone feeling slighted and there is enough interest in the car that, although not my intent, this is a real possibility.
Thanks in advance for your help. Bill�
Dec 17, 2013
AnOutsider Bill,
Thanks for how you've handled it. I did indicate interest, but as we're winding down on a lease, you don't have to put me at the top of the list. We also have to wait until the East Coast SC network is a tad more flushed out (the coming soon part of their map) to make the trip up north without trailering it. I'm not sure in which order I contacted you, but if you have an "easier" sale, no hard feelings here.�
Dec 17, 2013
jonjiv The shipping rate for cars is generally about $1 a mile. I had a friend purchase an out-of-state DeLorean recently and that's about what he paid for a flatbed.
And Bill - It looks like I will have to rescind my offer as my spouse doesn't look to be on the same page as me. I'm sure someone else would pay more than I offered anyway.
I think once you get a check from State Farm, you should just do a request for bids through PM. Personally, if I didn't get any offers in the price range I was looking for, I'd then post to Ebay with a reserve, taking into account, of course, their cut of the sale.�
Dec 17, 2013
772 lolachampcar,
I also expressed interest and I would have no issue waiting until your replacement MS arrives. It would give me time to work out a number of issues related to financing/insurance/DMV taxes, not to mention (hopefully) better weather up here in case we want to make a roadtrip out of it. Haven't sent you a PM offer yet because I'm still working on those issues as well as discussing the purchase with my SO. Will update if anything changes.�
Dec 17, 2013
NotARichMan I would say that once you have done the math and have a price set that you start working through your PMs until you find the right buyer. That seems fair and simple enough (but stinks for me as I'm sure I PM'd late in the game).�
Dec 17, 2013
abasile You do not need to put me on the list of interested parties, but when I am ready to purchase, something like this would be perfect. If the damage is merely cosmetic, then I would do only the minimum to address it. As an outdoor-oriented family with kids, we are admittedly not that great at keeping our cars clean and free of dings. Starting with a Tesla vehicle that already has some cosmetic damage (of course at a discount) would help put us at ease.�
Dec 18, 2013
CJS2 Bill,
I will give you 35000 cash for the car today as it sits sight unseen.
89000
-7500 tax rebate
-30000 to fix
-6600 depreciation per tesla
-12000 diminished value
-1500 another month+miles
=31,400
You can keep it until your new car arrives assuming
you don't put too many miles on it in the mean time
Jack�
Dec 18, 2013
lolachampcar I am meeting with the State Farm appraiser at two today. I will send them a note later today with my assessment of the situation and notice of intent to sell. I'll need to give them a reasonable amount of time to respond (a few days?) then I should be free to dispose of the car.
I met with the State Farm adjuster at the Tesla Service Center. He had a good look at the car then tried to get pricing for the door shells and rear quarter panel. Apparently this was not possible as body parts have, up until now, only been available through Tesla Authorized Body Shops. This policy has now been amended and the adjuster should have his pricing by now.
I followed up with a letter to SF claims detailing the cost savings by doing a retail sale. I gave them a few days to respond. With luck, the car will be freed up for sale shortly.�
Dec 18, 2013
KalOrtPor If it would be helpful, maybe I can ask my shop for a writeup of what they are doing and estimated cost of repair since I also have cosmetic rear quarter panel damage (I think it was close to $20,000 last time I checked without any additional items), as further evidence that $7k is nowhere near reality in terms of repairing this car. I'm sorry to hear State Farm trying to lowball you on the repair, that just makes this whole unpleasant process that much more :cursing:.....Progressive has been cooperative in my case, they did not argue where to take the car to, and they have green-lit all the body shop told them without question (I'm glad the claims people I've been dealing with are local and reasonable). That's about the only good part though! I thought about selling mine as well but there would be no diminished value benefit and the car sustained suspension and axle damage that made it non-driveable (it just dragged onto the flatbed going CLUNK CLUNK....lol). I'm thinking that once the repairs are done I may try to sell it as close to pre-accident value as possible since the shop is one of the top places you can take a car to anywhere (They primarily do exotics, I mentioned another time some would argue they could paint better than Tesla can....People bring their Enzos there, and they do so many Ferraris they have a whole room that's always full of nothing but Ferraris.....maybe I should have them do the whole car ha), but there would be at least some discount to a car that would look and drive as new. I would only sell it not because I wouldn't be satisfied with the repair (which from these guys is known to come out flawless), but because with only a few hundred miles, that would be my best shot to recoup as much value as I could assuming any resale, otherwise I'd likely need to keep it basically forever as I'd probably be hosed at any other point down the road. So I may be going through the same process as you in a few months, and if my case can help make it easier for you to get your due from State Farm then I'm more than happy to help.�
Dec 19, 2013
Baker I will give you $40,000 for it as soon as you get it cleared with your insurance.�
Dec 19, 2013
Martini Can't beat a sealed-bid auction for fairness and speed. There are some fancy variations like selling to the highest bidder at the value of the bid offered by the second-highest bidder, but these are for experienced buyers and sellers only.�
Dec 20, 2013
lolachampcar An interested party asked me to video the right rear quarter panel damage. Please find the following link-
Tesla model S right rear quarter panel - YouTube
I have yet to hear from State Farm today and do not anticipate hearing from them. I am composing a request for bids to be posted tomorrow morning. As it stands now, I will be asking for email bids over a four day period of time then comparing the bids and trying to choose one in a single sitting at the end of those four days. This makes the bidding process a one time best offer bid which seems to be the most fair way to do this.
One alternative that has been suggested is to update a post with the current high bid number and no other details (about the bidder). This approach seems very "Ebayish" and thus I am avoiding it. Thoughts?�
Dec 20, 2013
steve841 That's because you didnt chant, "Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there ..."�
Dec 20, 2013
NotARichMan Thanks for posting the video. I think you are right on with your method of e-mail bidding. It's much simpler and it gives you the opportunity to pick the offer that suits you the best.�
Dec 20, 2013
drees As an interested party, I personally don't have a preference on how you do it - it's your car - sell it any way you deem suitable.
From your perspective, I do think you'll get more money from holding an "eBay" style auction as people would be more likely to up their bid if they are losing. I do like the fact that bids would be visible. Heck, auctioning it on eBay itself may get you the best price.
From a potential buyer's perspective, I suspect that the single best offer bid may net a better price - especially since it's likely to restrict potential buyers. Someone's earlier suggestion to go through potential buyers in order that they PMd you seems best for the buyer, but I suspect you would end up with less money.
Or I could be wrong.�
Dec 20, 2013
ChadS Like drees, it's your car, sell it how you want.
The only thing I'd note is that you'd previously mentioned some preferences, such as when to transfer the car - you would rather not do that immediately. So in your bid process you may want to take flexibility on transfer dates, rather than simply price. You might also want to consider simplicity of the sale - a local buyer with a cashier's check from a local bank is better than a remote buyer that needs to get a loan, wants to write a personal check after getting the car, etc. But then again, maybe all that just makes it more complicated...�
Dec 20, 2013
Gizmotoy I agree with ChadS. I'm not in the running here, but either of your two options seems fine, though I suspect you'll get a better price conducting a public highest-bid auction.
One thing you might want to consider is reserving the right to select a bid other than the highest. As Chad mentioned, you have some other things you're looking for in addition to price, so it only makes sense to allow yourself the ability to factor in how much those are worth to you.�
Dec 20, 2013
lolachampcar I would like to start by thanking everyone that took time to give me feedback on selling my wife�s S85. That information, combined with some valuable cost data on a similar repair, has provided a clear and compelling case for selling the car as is.
The car is now available for sale and delivery. I would like to solicit bids by email for the next four days at the close of which I will sit down with my wife and examine all of them in an attempt to pick the best buyer. This will be Tuesday afternoon. I prefer email over PM as I seem unable to manage the volume in my PM account. As mentioned earlier, it is my intention to to be fair throughout this process and disadvantage no one. I will make the car available for inspection throughout this process.
Information from seller:
The car has clear title without lien holder, is in our possession and is in my wife�s name.
The car can be delivered to the buyer as early as two days after the close of bidding and selection of a winning bid.
A successful bid should include a non-refundable deposit that (1) allows the buyer to rely on the purchase of the car and (2) allow the seller to rely on the sale so that the car can be removed from the market. It has been my past experience that these types of deposit are typically made within a few days of the successful bid and are routinely in the 10% range.
I would prefer all payments be made via wire transfer to Tesla referencing the order number for my wife�s replacement car.
Although not a mandatory requirement, it would be very helpful if the successful bidder would allow for my wife to remain in the car until the replacement arrives. If the buyer is kind enough to allow this, I would anticipate protections for the buyer such that the car remains in my wife�s name, on our insurance policy and there is a clear zero cost exit for the buyer should anything happen to the car during this time (like another accident ). Again, this is desirable for obvious reasons but is by no means a requirement of a successful bid.
My primary goals are to meet the buyer�s needs for value while fetching the best possible price for the car as is. I am open to any approach that helps to achieve both goals.
Thank You,
Bill Hart
bill
at
lolachampcar
with the obligatory dot com�
Dec 20, 2013
jai9001 Bill,
I don't understand why you are selling.
Why wouldn't you let State Farm pay for the repairs then sell?
Aren't you losing twice as much?�
Dec 20, 2013
Seven7 I might get my car back this Monday, three months in the body shop... Can't wait :smile:�
Dec 21, 2013
lolachampcar jai,
The math is clear. The car is worth more as is than it is "Tesla Certified Repaired" with the associated costs of those repairs. I compared selling as is to having it repaired then trading it in on the new car. This path costs less for whoever pays the bill (State Farm or Me).�
Dec 21, 2013
772 Did State Farm "clear" the vehicle for sale? Is there anything they could do at this point that would stop the sale?�
Dec 21, 2013
lolachampcar I detailed the two paths for SF and gave them time to respond before I put the car up for sale. They did not respond so the car is for sale. I would not have put the car up for bid if I were not willing/able to deliver the car within the minimum of two days from the close of bidding.
The process is real and the car will sell if I get a good enough bid.�
Dec 21, 2013
andrewket I'm not participating. Just had one comment: For documentation purposes to establish value, using eBay may be better. It removes several "claims" SF could make that the process was deficient in some way.
My .02. Good luck.
A�
Dec 21, 2013
lolachampcar You are correct but I would prefer to sell the car to people I know from the TMC community. The sleaze factor on EBay can be high, especially when selling cars. Often you will have winning bids that do not perform. Couple this with the fact that members here are the most knowledgeable about the car and I think it is reasonable to believe that TMC will provide an equal or better yield from the sale.
In addition, I gave SF plenty of notice of my intent to sell as is. If they object to any part, they were free to take responsibility for the effort. It is not my choice to spend my time on this and I would have been perfectly happy to turn the whole project over to them. They did not respond thus they waive their right to object.�
Dec 21, 2013
GlennAlanBerry @lolachampcar I really hope you have gotten at least one repair estimate from a reputable shop. As I stated on your accident thread, I think State Farm's position is going to be that your PD claim against them is going to primarily be based on the cost to repair the car (plus car rental during the repairs). You would be better off negotiating down from a shop estimate rather than negotiating up from their adjuster's estimate.
I know you are determined to do the whole car swap thing, which is certainly your right, but at the end of the day, you either have to make a PD settlement with State Farm or sue them to get any money from them. The unfortunate reality is that State Farm has more experience, knowledge, money, and power than you do in this area. To quote George Costanza from Seinfield, "You have no hand". This seems to be a matter of principle for you, but I fear that sticking to your principles here will end up costing you probably $10-15K. In my nearly five years as a claims adjuster for CSAA in San Francisco (working several thousand claims), I never once had a PD claimant do what you are trying to do. I never heard of a similar case from any of my coworkers or through the grapevine either.
The State Farm adjuster handling your PD claim just wants you to settle, so he/she can close your file and reduce their claims backlog. If that adjuster thinks your claim (based on repair cost) is worth $20K, and you ask for $40K (based on the car swap), he cannot just give you $40K. If he did, he would either get in big trouble or be demoted or fired. Even a $20K claim is likely above the average material damage claims adjuster's signing authority, so you can bet higher levels of management will be involved in reviewing/settling the claim.
You need to come up with tangible arguments for why what you are doing is financially justified. Your arguments about the time and hassle of dealing with State Farm and the repair process, etc. are not going to be very persuasive to them or to a court.
As I said before, I am on your side (as a fellow Tesla owner), and I am just trying to give you some insight to how they are probably thinking about this. Good luck, and please let me know how it turns out!�
Dec 21, 2013
AudubonB I hope I'm not mucking up a very interesting development within the Tesla community with this post; it definitely is not my intention. As someone potentially but very peripherally interested in Bill's car, it is in my best interest to have the Sale price as low as possible. As someone who values lolachampcar's input in this forum very highly, I'd like to see him get the highest price possible.
And as someone who is right now negotiating for another car - not a Tesla - I really need to get my fingers in this as much as I need them in a closing car window....
That out of the way, a thought has occurred to me. As much as I truly look forward to being the first to drive a Model S to Alaska - our plan is to do this once the RV sites that service all those tourists making the trek to AK open up in May (only source to charge for a goodly number of thousands of miles) - I can make the argument that a far less insane answer would be to keep the P85 at our winter home and buy Bill's (sorry: Mrs. Lolachamp's) car, as it now has nicely been pre-Alaskanized, and have him throw it in a connex and shipped to Valdez. We'd be able to showcase it in our off-grid, all-solar tourist accommodations (something in our plans for our current Model S), and not worry that much about what Alaska's roads - esp. those in our specific region - will do to it. I wonder how much the shipping would be?�
Dec 21, 2013
lolachampcar Glenn,
Again, you are spot on point. My comments about my time and hassle are personal in nature only. My time only comes into play if an action is required at which point I will bill for that time.
I think it is your assessment of insurance companies that interests me the most. They do have all the power, are used to this and act accordingly. I already have a credible and verifiable argument for an as is sale being the more cost effective path. I also agree with you that I will need more should SF choose to be uncooperative. Although I really hate to waste Tesla's time, I am moving forward with a complete repair and trade in quotation from the local SC to support my other documentation.
I would not be remotely surprised if I find myself $45K out of pocket for nine to twelve months while an attorney sorts this out. That being said, I do not accept the status quo where the person/entity responsible for the damage dictates how things will be done and does so with a heavy hand. I am more than willing to work with any reasonable party and equally willing to take responsibility for doing things the hard way when working with unreasonable people.
I most certainly will be detailing the complete process as, if successful, I think this will aid others in dealing with damage and diminished value claims on the Model S. There is even knowledge to be had if I get my clock cleaned
Lastly, there is never any need to cradle your comments in an "I am on your side" way. All of your posts have been helpful and informative. You have been kind enough to share your unique experience and this has aided me in navigating the road I have chosen. Thank You.
AB,
My past experience is between $1800 and $2200 to ship race cars to Europe from Florida but then those data points are four years or more old.�
Dec 21, 2013
GlennAlanBerry @772 State Farm cannot tell Bill whether or not to sell the car. That is 100% Bill's decision. The only point of contention is going to be how much State Farm thinks his property damage (PD) claim is worth and whether Bill accepts that or not, at some point in the future. In the meantime, Bill can do anything he wants with the car.�
Dec 21, 2013
lolachampcar Duplicate Post to Keep the Request for Bids in an Obvious Place
I would like to start by thanking everyone that took time to give me feedback on selling my wife�s S85. That information, combined with some valuable cost data on a similar repair, has provided a clear and compelling case for selling the car as is.
The car is now available for sale and delivery. I would like to solicit bids by email for the next four days at the close of which I will sit down with my wife and examine all of them in an attempt to pick the best buyer. This will be Tuesday afternoon. I prefer email over PM as I seem unable to manage the volume in my PM account. As mentioned earlier, it is my intention to to be fair throughout this process and disadvantage no one. I will make the car available for inspection throughout this process.
Information from seller:
The car has clear title without lien holder, is in our possession and is in my wife�s name.
The car can be delivered to the buyer as early as two days after the close of bidding and selection of a winning bid.
A successful bid should include a non-refundable deposit that (1) allows the buyer to rely on the purchase of the car and (2) allow the seller to rely on the sale so that the car can be removed from the market. It has been my past experience that these types of deposit are typically made within a few days of the successful bid and are routinely in the 10% range.
I would prefer all payments be made via wire transfer to Tesla referencing the order number for my wife�s replacement car.
Although not a mandatory requirement, it would be very helpful if the successful bidder would allow for my wife to remain in the car until the replacement arrives. If the buyer is kind enough to allow this, I would anticipate protections for the buyer such that the car remains in my wife�s name, on our insurance policy and there is a clear zero cost exit for the buyer should anything happen to the car during this time (like another accident ). Again, this is desirable for obvious reasons but is by no means a requirement of a successful bid.
My primary goals are to meet the buyer�s needs for value while fetching the best possible price for the car as is. I am open to any approach that helps to achieve both goals.
Thank You,
Bill Hart
bill
at
lolachampcar
with the obligatory dot com�
Dec 21, 2013
lolachampcar A potential bidder asked me to bracket the quarter panel damage and shoot a picture to better define the size of the damaged area.�
Dec 21, 2013
Hart Hi Bill,
can an I have your email address? I gave you mine, plus my phone number. I have your phone number, but calling is more disruptive for you than an email.
Hart
�
Dec 21, 2013
AlMc Bill and GlennAlan: Probably more to GlennAlan: This may be totally na�ve of me: It is not possible to purchase two white doors and a quarter panel for less than 20K from TM? They know Bill and 'lolahcampcar' is probably one of the most respected members of this and TMs own forum. Surely these three parts of a 90K car (whose battery represents 40K of the car) can't be worth 20+K?
As some others have mentioned: This car is a 'steal' at 40-45K. If I did not already have an S and was waiting for an X this would be a 'no brainer'
On a personal note: Glad you wife is OK Bill.�
Dec 22, 2013
lolachampcar The doors are $950 and $975 from Tesla (complete shells) while the quarter panel is $900. It is still unclear if a non-certified Tesla body shop can buy the quarter panel.
I did a good bit of research on the costs of repair which led me to the conclusion that an as is sale is the most cost effective way to address the problem. You can do a search on TMC and find many a QP replacement in the $17K to $22.5K area depending upon other adjacent damage that was fixed. The panels are welded and bonded in place which makes them very expensive to R&R. I believe one TMC member posed that a RR quarter panel replacement with wheel, door and bumper touch up took more than 130 hours of labor at $110/hr and seven weeks to complete. It is also interesting to note that the insurance company's original assessment of that repair was $7700 which, of course, was WAY off.
In my view, there are two extremes for this car. The first is the full and correct Tesla certified repair using a certified repair shop. The second is to replace the two door shells and body work the rear quarter panel. The second allows an owner to have the least possible $ amount in the car and, assuming they keep the car for 50 to 75K miles, the penalty for a non-certified repair when they go to sell a highly depreciated MS will be peanuts in comparison to the money they saved getting into the car (and they will not have had that extra money tied up for three or four years). Of course, there is always the third option where someone does not even bother to repair the damage. I guess that is the least expensive from a $/mile for the buyer.
Hart,
bill
at
lolachampcar
with the obligatory dot
com�
Dec 22, 2013
GlennAlanBerry The average insurance adjuster (with no knowledge of how a Tesla is made of aluminum) is probably going to initially write an estimate for XX hours to repair both doors and the quarter panel, based on the size and severity of the damage. As in the body shop pulls and hammers out the dents and uses body filler to smooth out the remaining minor imperfections. A good shop can do an amazing job (with conventional steel body panels), where the amount of filler is very tiny. Of course, this would be more of a problem with aluminum body panels, so I am betting the adjuster can be convinced to replace all three panels.
Back in the 1990's, body shops and insurance companies used the Mitchell guide for book times for how many hours to allow for R&I, R&R, paint times, parts prices, etc. I have no idea if Mitchell covers a Tesla Model S yet, but they probably do by now.
For the DIYer out there, another possible source for parts would be salvage yards. If you can find a Model S that took a good front-end or driver's side hit and was totaled, you might be able to buy some parts from it.
I agree with Bill that replacing the door shells and repairing the quarter panel damage probably makes the most sense for a buyer who plans to keep the vehicle.�
Dec 22, 2013
bazer I did send you an email. Let me know if you did NOT get it.
i appreciate your detailed analysis of the situation. I know it will help many in years to come.
Shane�
Dec 22, 2013
swegman Bill,
When a deer hit the side of my car, I took it to the authorized Tesla shop in Annapolis, MD for repair. This was in April, 2013. Their labor rate was $28/hr, not $110.00, and Gieco objected to that rate, arguing it was above the authorized rate they allow. Check what the labor rates are in your area. If you are basing your arguments with SF on a $110/hr labor rate and they submit that the rate is much less, that may impact your strategy.
Watching for the outcome with great interest.�
Dec 22, 2013
Sancann I agree with AIMc, at 40K - 45K this car is a steal. We have never seen a Model S offered at a fifty percent discount or more without a salvage title and we probably will not again. I think that explains the tremendous response he has received.�
Dec 22, 2013
lolachampcar sweg,
I'm basing my comments on a recent repair where SF paid for a RR quarter panel replacement. The labor rate for that shop was $110. I know the dealers locally are getting $150/hr for mechanical work. I believe Tesla's rate is near that as well.
I'm not saying it is right, but it seems the insurance companies are paying that much.�
Dec 22, 2013
JohnQ Did you transpose the numbers in the $28/hr labor rate? I don't know anyone who works for that rate.�
Dec 22, 2013
swegman No I did not transpose the numbers; it was $28/hr for body work from the Tesla approved shop in Annapolis MD. And Gieco refused to pay that rate, saying it was higher than what they pay repair shops in the Washington, DC area.�
Dec 22, 2013
David_Cary
Come on $28? I am used to body shop labor being a little less than typical mechanic labor. A quick look puts NC average at $90 or so (not much different than MD). I am used to body work at 10% less so $82 makes a lot of sense.
I would expect $100 for Tesla approved in S. Fl.
Just as aside, but if everyone seems to think that $40-45k is a steal, the car is not likely to sell at $40-45k.�
Dec 22, 2013
Lessmog Did the Geico adjusters by any chance have their total previous business experience flipping burgers? Or having their cars serviced by such qualified personnel? Annapolis doesn't sound like extremely low wage territory for expertise. Thanks for the warning though ;-) however not needed for me.�
Dec 22, 2013
AlMc For Lolas sake I hope he gets more. Think about it everyone....A person waiting for a 'E' (40K) car is getting a car 2-3 years before the E is available with an 85KW battery for a very similar price. If you look at the photos the damage is all minor cosmetics.
I hope my car never gets damages. If it does I am heading to Annapolis ($28/hour at a body shop)...Sign me up.�
Dec 22, 2013
lolachampcar I'm not sure where it will sell. The reason for the original thread was to make sure there was enough interest such that I could prove to the insurance company that an as is sale is more cost effective then repair and trade. Put differently, the as is price plus an estimate for a Tesla certified repair had to approach the price of depreciated new.
If the car fetches $50K as is, it would be insane for an insurance company to expose itself to a potential $25K repair and $5-$7K in rental car (Florida requires a like replacement for Loss of Use) before even having a discussion about diminished value. Let's say diminished value is on the low side at 10% which is (0.1 * (89,750 - $3000 for three months of ownership and $3500 for miles driven using Tesla's demo/loaner model)) or $8325. That number is conservative as (1) no MS owner would agree to just 10% and (2) the DM should be applied to the after tax number as that is the true cost of the vehicle to the owner. Add the as is value to the repair and diminished value (low ball) number and you get just over $88K!!! As I said, going that way would be insane.
Nothing in the above should be construed as a comment on the current bidding.�
Dec 22, 2013
drees Are you saying that you've got offers for $50k on the car? :wink:
I think a local buyer will have a distinct advantage as then they don't have to factor in travel/appraiser costs or shipping costs. Still trying to figure out a good number!�
Dec 22, 2013
swegman Gieco refused to pay the $28/hr repair rate for the Tesla authorized shop, saying I could have taken the shop to a Gieco approved repair shop, which gets paid (if I remember correctly $24/hr for body work). Gieco took the position that replacing body panels (there was no structural damage) could be done by any body shop, and not just an approved Tesla shop. I argued the rate was more than reasonable for the type of vehicle. I refused to accept no as an answer and kept going to higher ups in the company. I spoke to 6 higher ups in the company and they all said no. Finally, I spoke to the VP of the DC region, told him I would post my experience with Gieco on the Tesla Motors forum and TMC forum, and he agreed to reimburse me for the additional labor rate. That is, they would not pay the body shop the higher rate, as (according to the VP) if Gieco did that for me, they would have to do it for everyone. However, if I paid the Tesla body shop the disallowed amount, and sent them proof that I paid it, Gieco would reimburse me, as a curtesy, which they did.
At least in the DC area, Gieco uses body shops that have agreed to certain reimbursement rates, and if you do to a non-Gieco shop, you are on the hook for whatever amount the labor reate of that shop exceeds the Gieco "rate".�
Dec 22, 2013
Lessmog Thanks, swegman. That implies a distinctive YES to me. I could be wrong, but I am sure glad not to be one of their customers. Those who are, prepare to get your car grilled-in-a-bun. Ketchup? Big fry-up? (However that's spelled)�
Dec 22, 2013
lolachampcar Reposting to make sure the request for bids can be found easily by newcomers to the thread.
I would like to start by thanking everyone that took time to give me feedback on selling my wife�s S85. That information, combined with some valuable cost data on a similar repair, has provided a clear and compelling case for selling the car as is.
The car is now available for sale and delivery. I would like to solicit bids by email for the next four days at the close of which I will sit down with my wife and examine all of them in an attempt to pick the best buyer. This will be Tuesday afternoon. I prefer email over PM as I seem unable to manage the volume in my PM account. As mentioned earlier, it is my intention to to be fair throughout this process and disadvantage no one. I will make the car available for inspection throughout this process.
Information from seller:
The car has clear title without lien holder, is in our possession and is in my wife�s name.
The car can be delivered to the buyer as early as two days after the close of bidding and selection of a winning bid.
A successful bid should include a non-refundable deposit that (1) allows the buyer to rely on the purchase of the car and (2) allow the seller to rely on the sale so that the car can be removed from the market. It has been my past experience that these types of deposit are typically made within a few days of the successful bid and are routinely in the 10% range.
I would prefer all payments be made via wire transfer to Tesla referencing the order number for my wife�s replacement car.
Although not a mandatory requirement, it would be very helpful if the successful bidder would allow for my wife to remain in the car until the replacement arrives. If the buyer is kind enough to allow this, I would anticipate protections for the buyer such that the car remains in my wife�s name, on our insurance policy and there is a clear zero cost exit for the buyer should anything happen to the car during this time (like another accident ). Again, this is desirable for obvious reasons but is by no means a requirement of a successful bid.
My primary goals are to meet the buyer�s needs for value while fetching the best possible price for the car as is. I am open to any approach that helps to achieve both goals.
Thank You,
Bill Hart
bill
at
lolachampcar
with the obligatory dot com�
Dec 22, 2013
swegman Leesmog, not sure what you mean by YES. Other than the labor reimbursement rate, Gieco was easy to deal with. The initial estimate for the damage was $800. When the Tesla approved body shop started work, they determined that a clip on the headlight and a clip on the fender cover had broken. Normally, they would repair the clips. Since the car was only 3 weeks old at the time, they recommended replacing these parts, as repairing the clips would likely result in some minor non-alignment issues. This increased the repair costs to over $5,200.00. Gieco approved these items without any question, which surprised me. The only issue they had was the higher body shop labor rates, for using a non-Gieco approved body shop. Also, when my renewal came up (6 months coverage), my premium actually decreased, as the repair was covered under the comprehensive section of my plan.�
Dec 22, 2013
AudubonB Have sent a long PM plus an even longer email (as latter contains pic!!). Have fun!�
Dec 22, 2013
772 lolachampcar,
I've sent you an essay, er, I mean, an e-mail. :redface:�
Dec 23, 2013
eAdopter @lola
Help me understand something.
If you are correct regarding diminished value (and I think you are)...
82-25-18= $39k
Given t-bone impact you described, it's very likely some unseen damage exists to other parts, or even structural misalignment which could add thousands to the repair cost or result in a total loss. In the future, Tesla could also refuse to repair or replace things (such as electronics or battery) under warranty because they could have been damaged during the accident. It's very difficult to prove otherwise, and Tesla is in the position to decide.
All considered, isn't this closer to a $30k car to anyone else?
Because...
You are in a unique position to force an insurance company to cover these potential circumstances. No other owner will have the same leverage with the insurance company.�
Dec 23, 2013
lolachampcar e,
Starting from the end and working backwards, I'm not sure I have any leverage at all. I'm just hard headed and refuse to spend money that does not need to be spent. It does not matter who's money it is (mine, my insurance company or their insurance company). It just plain makes more sense to do an as is sale for all the reasons I have outlined.
WRT damage, the very first thing I did was examine the car for signs of structural damage. The first obligation you have as an owner is to mitigate further damage. I washed all the black bumper rubber off the car and wheel. The right rear wheel had a small scratch that resembles very minor wheel rash. There was no water intrusion, the doors opened and closed well and there was no increase in wind noise at highway speeds. I also checked the lower kick panel to see if there was any damage there. There were no indications of damage on the kick panel or anywhere towards the underneath of the car (battery). I followed this up by taking the car to the local Tesla Service Center and asked one of their techs to make sure I was not missing something. We even put it up on the lift and the whole underside of the car was perfect. Lastly, traffic had just begun to flow so my wife was under the 35 mph speed limit traveling in a straight line. The Lexus SuV that hit her was pulling out from a stop sign in a parking lot to merge with my wife's lane. She misjudged her entry and hit my wife with that huge plastic bumper cover at what I guess to be about a 65 degree angle. The bumper cover just "smeared" the aluminum panels against the substructure in part of the doors like a hot butter knife spreads butter. The term T bone really does not apply as there was little T bone velocity. The damage came mostly from my wife "driving by" the lady's bumper.
The above being said, you are absolutely right in that there could very well be (1) some damaged door protection structures or (2) damage to the inner fender wall behind the quarter panel. This can only been seen by removing the quarter panel or disassembling the doors. I think this is why several bidders have had independent appraisers asses the car. Both State Farm and the independent appraisers did not think there was any such hidden or structural damage. But, that does not mean we are not all wrong and that there is some hidden damage.
As for your $30K number, the market (and I) would seem to disagree with you.�
Dec 23, 2013
shn I PM'D you Lolachamp!
: D�
Dec 23, 2013
ayub98516 I am interested in your car.
Plz call me at 360-489-2830 or send me your # to call you.
I am serious.
Respectfully,
Ayub, the DOLPHIN
Cell - 360-489-2830.
�Adversity is the state in which man most easily becomes acquainted with himself, being especially free of admirers then.� � Samuel Johnson. Most of us like smooth sailing when all is going our way. But if this quote is correct, and I suspect it is, then it is in the challenges and adversities of life that we really discover ourselves.
�
Dec 23, 2013
lolachampcar I have been absolutely buried and would like to apologize to all for not being more responsive.
I stopped by Fantastic Finishes in West Palm Beach this morning and started the Tesla Certified Repair Facility appraisal process. I will post the results but do not expect anything until after Christmas.
I also stopped by Tesla to start the trade in quotation process (I'll need this for the insurance company).
I then met with some bidders at the Port St. Lucie Super Charger station.
I got home to a full inbox. I have now sent out a form response to every bidder who has sent me a bid. I wish I had the time to respond to each one individually but had to use a form response. My family is beginning to wonder what has happened to me so I had to cut that corner.�
Dec 23, 2013
lifesaver Hi Bill,
I sent you a private message but have not received your form for bidding. Can you please send me your email address or reply to my private message.
Thank you,�
Dec 24, 2013
aaron.s Guys -
Bill asked in a previous post that you all contact him via his email rather than here or via private message.... See his posting here:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/25050-S85-For-Sale-White-Tan-Gloss-Wood-No-Pano-3500-miles-ACCIDENT-DAMAGE/page8?p=531241&viewfull=1#post531241
Aaron�
Dec 24, 2013
lolachampcar To clarify, when I said I sent out a form response I was trying to say that I wrote up a generic non-personalized response and replied to all birders with the same note.
It was a bad choice of words as it was confusing. There is no "form" to fill out to bid. Each buyers needs are different so a form really does not make sense.�
Dec 24, 2013
lolachampcar The bidding time has expired and the bidding is closed.
Amy and I are sitting down now to go over the bids. Thanks again to everyone that took the time to consider the car and place a bid. There is no doubt that there are a lot of nice, friendly intelligent people on TMC. Some have a healthy sense of humor as well. It was a pleasure reading though the bids as they came in.
Thank You!
Bill�
Dec 29, 2013
mcornwell And...
Are you accepting any of the bids?�
Dec 29, 2013
lolachampcar I had multiple bids that exceeded my expectations. The winning bidder's deposit should be here tomorrow.
Bill�
Dec 29, 2013
AlMc Good to hear. Win-win situations are the best!�
Dec 29, 2013
swegman How are negotiations with the insurance company going?�
Dec 29, 2013
772 Did you end up selling it to a forum member or was it a local? Or perhaps a local forum member?�
Dec 29, 2013
lolachampcar It was a forum member from Ca.
WRT the insurance company, I'm going to keep the original thread updated. There's been no real movement yet.�
Dec 30, 2013
lolachampcar The winning bidder's deposit has been received. Thank you to all that participated and a special thanks to those that let me extend their bid for a few more days.
Bill Hart�
Jan 1, 2014
archibaldcrane Well, we're all on the edge of our seats, what did it go for?�
Jan 1, 2014
lolachampcar There was a group of bids in the 53 range with a couple including the winning one in the high 50s.�
Jan 1, 2014
drees Well done! Glad you did well on the car and hope the insurance process goes smoothly for you.
When does your replacement car arrive?�
Jan 1, 2014
lolachampcar It seems like everyone else that has ordered recently that I too have an end of Feb. delivery date. I suspect that may change radically when they spool back up this week.�
Jan 3, 2014
lorih Congrats on the very lucky future owner with the winning bid. Wishing you many happy, safe and of course fun miles in your Model S!
Bill, I hope your next car stays ding-free. (Of course if a small ding means another great buying opportunity.... :wink�
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