Nov 17, 2012
rcc I live in the SF Bay Area and like many folks here, put stuff in the garage and park outside. Solar City is recommending a 14-50 outlet in an outdoor receptacle which seems reasonable to me. RV's hook up outside and get rained on all the time.�
Nov 18, 2012
xhawk101 Installed my 6-50 plug on 8awg wire and 50 amp breaker in my garage yesterday. Circuit has been set up for years on an extra dryer which I don't need.
Well I noticed my kitchen oven light blinking and sure enough the dryer line and oven are on the SAME BREAKER not on same wire though.
I understand the breaker may trip if I bake and charge at same time. But its not a fire risk to my knowledge.
My box is full and would need a new sub panel to ad separate breakers.
I am wondering if the s will detect this and cancel charge or limit ampacity?
Any comments suggestions are welcome.
from my Samsung galaxy s3�
Nov 18, 2012
JackA I am not an electrician: however, I watched an electrician yesterday as he installed a 100 Amp circuit to our detached garage. I am not visualizing how your oven and new outlet are not "sharing" some wire. The breakers I saw being used yesterday only have one set of connection lugs so the wire from the load center breaker must be split at some point, one to the oven one branch to the new outlet. I was told by the electrician that the ratings are based on one hour continuous use that is why the expected load should be no more than 80% of the rated capacity. This is to reduce the heat build up in the wire and connectors according to him. A few hundred dollars spent with an electrician might be much less costly than a fire loss.�
Nov 18, 2012
efusco I was warned that 8ga wire is not adequate for continuous 40amp draw and actually had my electrician change out to 6ga.�
Nov 18, 2012
xhawk101 I see.. well I guess I better reconsider my setup. Thanks for the advice.
from my Samsung galaxy s3�
Nov 18, 2012
FlasherZ 8 AWG can be used when the proper wire is used, all components are rated at 75 deg C or 90 deg C (breaker, wires, conduit, etc.) and you don't have to de-rate (either due to high temp attic runs or packed conduits, etc.) There is no easy guide for this because the NEC deals with different wire types. For example, if you used type NM cable (typical all-in-one black-sheathed Romex multi-wire cable, like 8/2) it isn't good for 50A with #8, but separate wires in conduit or type MC cable is ok. You have to check your wire / cable's ratings and types.
EDIT: Oh yes, and the length of the circuit. #8 for anything longer than a short garage run should probably be avoided.
- - - Updated - - -
A few things:
1. Since you added a new outlet, it must conform to code. An electric dryer and a range/oven may not share the same circuit.
2. When you say they're on the same breaker but not the same wire, and you installed this breaker, did you attach multiple wires to each screw terminal on the breaker, or are they pigtailed together inside the box? They must be the latter - even if it were legal to share the breaker, you cannot have two wires connected to a breaker screw, to be legal.
3. What breaker was formerly in the box? Wiring, receptacles / appliance nameplates, and OCP devices (breakers) must be matched. If your oven was a 30A oven on #10 wire it cannot be connected to a 50A breaker.
4. Given your location, I am assuming that your county / city subscribes to current code and requires inspections. Installing a new breaker and outlet will typically require a permit and inspection. If you didn't do this, selling your house later may create a problem -- in some jurisdictions, it can cause you to have to bring the ENTIRE HOUSE up to code at your expense before you may sell it. You should check with your city hall / county inspector.
What type of panel do you have? Some panel brands have compact breakers, 2 in one slot. You could combine 4 120V circuits into 2 slots to make room for a new double-pole breaker. Before you do this, you'll probably need to do a load calculation to make sure you're not going to oversubscribe your panel too much, since you're adding such a large load.�
Nov 18, 2012
brianman I was looking for a good consumer-friendly table with some web searching. Didn't find one I really like, but this one was interesting...
American wire gauge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The "NEC copper wire ampacity..." column seems to line up with what you're saying.
Does this imply 1 gauge for wiring to the HPWC?�
Nov 18, 2012
FlasherZ No. I don't have the HPWC final specs, but I'm assuming based on published information it requires a 100A circuit and wire for an 80A continuous load. Assuming 75 or 90 deg C ratings (and that you don't need de-rating), you're normally looking at #2 wire (115A/130A rating), although #3 would be good enough. It's much harder to find #3. Keep in mind this is for copper wire, usually THHN.
(#1 is hard to find too, you'd probably have to go up to 1/0 if you needed it.)�
Nov 18, 2012
brianman That was my understanding as well.
What leads to that assumption, as opposed to the 60 deg C?
Thanks for the info.�
Nov 18, 2012
FlasherZ Most wiring (especially current-generation individual conductors in conduit), breakers, conduit, and receptacles, etc., are now UL listed at 75 and 90 deg C. The only issue becomes if you have to de-rate because you have tight conduits, or hot attic runs, etc.�
Nov 18, 2012
brianman Got it. Thanks.
So here's an example:
Cerrowire 1,000 ft. 2-Gauge Stranded Aluminum USE Cable - Home Depot
2 gauge wire. When you click the Specification link under MORE INFO, it includes:
�
Nov 18, 2012
FlasherZ You have to be careful with the wire types. Type USE is underground service entrance wire. Article 338 of the NEC covers its uses. Because USE is intended for underground service entrance, it is not required to have flame-retardant covering/insulation, and as a result 338.12(B) states that type USE may not be used for interior wiring at all.
Typically, for ampacity that big on an internal use, you'll use type THHN in conduit, it's much easier to work with.
Edit: The wire you linked is also AL wire, not CU, so its ampacity is much less.�
Nov 18, 2012
xhawk101 I did not actually add an outlet- it was in my home when I bought it- I just converted the outlet from dryer plug to the nema 6-50 as a solar city electrician said my outlet could do- the 8 gauge wires are individual copper and the run is very short- maybe 8 feet.
I did not add a breaker I am using a 50 amp breaker that was already installed- I dont know if the lines are pigtailed or what so that I need to investigate yes. I also do not yet know the amps required of my oven. Perhaps 50 is too high for typical oven.... I will have another electrician take a look at this point. Thanks for the advice.�
Nov 18, 2012
FlasherZ It depends upon your jurisdiction, but in most cases if you did anything other than replace a like-for-like receptacle (for example 10-30R with the same model) -- if you ran new wire, or changed breaker size, changed from NEMA 10 series to 6 or 14 series, or extended the circuit -- it's a permit-required change.
You mentioned a dryer outlet, those are usually 30A... what was the old receptacle? If it was a 30A outlet on the 50A breaker, that's dangerous. It's safer now, except for sharing the breaker with the range. If you converted from a NEMA 10 series to a NEMA 6 series, is your breaker in a sub-panel or the main service panel? If a sub-panel, you might need to move the wire from the neutral bus of the panel to the ground bus, as a NEMA 10 is a hot-hot-neutral and NEMA 6 is hot-hot-ground. In an older panel or a service panel, the two may be bonded so it won't make a difference. HOWEVER, sharing that oven then becomes problematic, as it may have need for 120V/240V, which would have return current flowing on the ground wire. That's why you need permits, this stuff gets complicated.
As for the oven, it really depends upon the nameplate -- whether it's a range, a single oven, a double oven, a combination microwave/oven, etc. The nameplate will tell you the minimum ampacity required and, if direct-wired, the maximum circuit size.
Finally, as to your question, no, the car will not sense and adjust based on other loads on the circuit -- your breaker will just trip if you run the oven and charge the car at the full 40A at the same time.
One final thing for you -- should you insist upon keeping the breaker-sharing arrangement (against code), please make sure you do not have a Federal-Pacific Stab-Lok panel (typically breakers are black numbers on an orange face on the end of the breaker) or a Zinsco panel. Those panels are notorious for failure to trip and will be a severe fire hazard on that circuit.�
Nov 19, 2012
spatterso911 I've got a quote from SC to do a short run (1 ft) of 100 A to HPWC and a long run (25 ft) to install a 14-50 (opposite side of a 2-car garage). $1650. Good deal??�
Nov 19, 2012
dflye We had two 14-50 plugs installed on opposite walls in our garage using conduit from an existing sub-panel in the garage, probably a bit over 50' of conduit involved, total cost was about half of what you were quoted. Not sure if the 100A HPWC run would increase the price that much, or if there are other challenges for your particular install.
The work we had done was through a company already on site doing a solar PV install, so not sure if we got a price break due to them already being on site for the larger project.�
Nov 19, 2012
FlasherZ Depends on the work required. If you have breaker space, room in the panels' edge for the cut-outs, and are going with surface-mount boxes, conduit, and receptacles, it seems rather high. If you need some circuits moved to make room in the panel, or the electrician will be digging in walls, running things in the attic, cutting boxes in, etc., you might be approaching that figure.�
Nov 19, 2012
spatterso911 I have a full size Square D surface mount panel inside the garage (200 A) with only 2 breakers in it for my PV system. The run would be about a foot to a surface mount box to manage the HPWC, and about 25-35' run from the panel, up the wall, across the ceiling, across the garage (2-car), down the wall again to mid point for the 14-50 plug. All surface mount. No need to hide the conduit. I'm surprised by the price, but it appears SC is using a standard price regardless of the run. I have thought about hiring an electrician to do this instead of them and see what price I get. I don't really believe that this install should cost $1650.�
Nov 19, 2012
FlasherZ Given what you have described, including parts it should be considerably less than that, perhaps a 1/3 of that.
PS: If you're going below the panel with the HPWC, leave yourself some room if you need additional exit from the box in the future - if you can go 18 or even 24 inches you'll be thankful later.�
Nov 19, 2012
Trnsl8r I had a quote from a local company that I've used several times before, including a discount for me as an existing customer to $1800 to install a 14-50. (I don't think they had done one before.) When it was all said and done, the bill came in at $1300 since the whole thing went a lot faster than they had expected. Stand-up guys. PM me if you're in the Silicon Valley area and want a referral.
Now I just need a car to try it with...�
Nov 19, 2012
mitch672 I found a source of #3 THHN, availble in different colors as well... .75 per foot, of course they only ship via FedEx, if you have a commercial address to send it to, FedEx ground isn't too pricey: 600 Volt THHN
BTW, I ordered 25' of #3 red, #3 black and #6 green from them, arrived no problem and is a major brand of wire (think it was Southwire)�
Nov 19, 2012
spatterso911 The HPWC would be just to the right of the panel, about a foot over, and about 5.5' high.�
Nov 19, 2012
FlasherZ Also, one thing that's worth noting - if you're using these wires in wet locations (for example, outdoors -- even the inside of conduits outdoors are considered wet), you'll need THWN wire (water-resistant jacketing).�
Nov 26, 2012
atsunset Temporary and future rough in completed
In case you are interested, here is what I have done.
I installed a new NEMA 14-50 wall outlet for use until our HPWC shows up.
And, installed a new 100 amp circuit breaker and junction box for the new HPWC.
(The small switch panel in the middle is a generator transfer switch)
We have a 400 amp service entrance with (2) 200 amp sub panels so this was an easy addition.
One of the TESLA Ownership Experience Advocates sent me information on the HPWC.
It is 20� tall and 5 �� wide
It was difficult finding a wall box to fit neatly behind the HPWC with enough volume to house the wiring.
I found a 1 �� �LB� pull box that measures 13 �� by 5�.
I blanked off the opening on the back and will either not use the cover or drill a hole in the cover when the HPWC shows up for final connection.�
Nov 26, 2012
FlasherZ Looks like a good rough-in -- a couple of questions for you:
1. Do you have a ground bonding your panel's ground bus to the future HPWC box? If you have any wires that run between the two, even if they aren't hooked up, you really need a #6 ground connecting the two for safety reasons.
2. I see white tape, is this temporary? The HPWC won't need neutral, and white tape on anything but a neutral is dangerous.
3. A comment: Some inspectors will fail your 14-50 installation because the NM-B cable isn't attached to the stud. It seems silly, but the code generally requires you secure cable to a framing member. (At least I'm assuming it's NM-B, it's not allowed to be cord-type.)
4. And, just checking -- you didn't connect the 14-50 to the 100A breaker, even temporarily? I hope it's connected to a 50A breaker.�
Nov 27, 2012
atsunset Looks like a good rough-in -- a couple of questions for you:
1. Do you have a ground bonding your panel's ground bus to the future HPWC box? If you have any wires that run between the two, even if they aren't hooked up, you really need a #6 ground connecting the two for safety reasons.
Yes, (3) #2 wires, one is grounded on the lower ground bus in the panel.
2. I see white tape, is this temporary? The HPWC won't need neutral, and white tape on anything but a neutral is dangerous.
Yes it is temporary, I did not have green tape in my tool box, so I used it to mark the ground for later.
3. A comment: Some inspectors will fail your 14-50 installation because the NM-B cable isn't attached to the stud. It seems silly, but the code generally requires you secure cable to a framing member. (At least I'm assuming it's NM-B, it's not allowed to be cord-type.)
Yes it is NM-B cable. And I understand the code to have been attaching to framing within 4" of the box unless a clamp was used at the box. I used clamps at both locations and the distance is right at 8".
4. And, just checking -- you didn't connect the 14-50 to the 100A breaker, even temporarily? I hope it's connected to a 50A breaker.[/QUOTE]
The 14-50 is connected to a 50 amp breaker and the future HPWC is connected to a new 100 amp breaker.
Thanks for the input, I'll make sure to properly mark the ground wire with green tape.
Mike�
Nov 27, 2012
wycolo [atsunset] rough in completed . . .
Aarrgh, where are those pesky huge images when we really need them!?
--�
Nov 27, 2012
AMPd Would 400 amp (2) 200 amp sub panels be enough for 2 HPWC? Charging 2 Model S vehicles at once, both at full 80amps?
Most of the time, they'll charge at 40amps but there may be times where one of us or even both of us will need a quicker charge.�
Nov 27, 2012
FlasherZ Most reasonable AHJ's will find no fault with your installation, but if they get picky, according to code it must be supported. NEC 334.30 requires that type NM cable must be supported and secured by staples, straps, hangers, etc., within 12 in of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting. 334.30(B) allows for unsupported cables only where it is fished between access points in concealed spaces ("old work") or some ceiling work. There is no exception for "short runs" and clamps are not considered as "supports" for that purpose.
- - - Updated - - -
I don't understand what you mean by "400 amp (2) 200 amp sub panels" - can you explain a bit more? I'm going to take my best guess in that you're saying you have a 400A service from the PoCo with 2 service panels, each connected to separate lugs on the meter base with a 200A main breaker. Most larger houses are now served this way.
In that case, it will depend upon other loads in the panels. If the circuits have been evenly distributed, you'll want 1 100A circuit for HPWC1 coming from panel 1, and another 100A circuit for HPWC2 coming from panel 2. If they haven't been distributed evenly, your electrician will likely take them from the same panel - but keep in mind you have a potential to draw 160A. Your third option is for your electrician or PoCo (depending upon who does this in your area) to upgrade your wiring and meter base, add a third set of lugs to your meter base and install a 3rd service panel in your garage, with a 200A main and 2 100A circuits for the HPWC. This is likely not the best option though because of its cost. Chances are you have room in your panels and you don't draw that much.�
Nov 27, 2012
AMPd Thank you Flasher, that's what I means and thank you for the answer!�
Nov 30, 2012
mnx So I've decided I don't need the HPWC at this time but would like to have an easy upgrade path if I change my mind in the future.
The main panel is ~20ft away from the wall of the garage where I will likely put a 14-50. Would it make sense to run heavier gauge wire now (enough to support a HPWC) and connect it to my 14-50?
The other option is that I have an unused dryer circuit in my laundry room which is adjacent to the garage. It has never been used since the house is new and I had a gas line/gas dryer installed. Would it make sense to extended this circuit and charge the car from a 14-30?
FWIW My father in law is going to be doing the work.
Thoughts?�
Nov 30, 2012
FlasherZ It depends on what your confidence level will be that you'll need >40A charging.
First, I'd forego the idea of using a 14-30 unless you're only going to do overnight charging and you don't anticipate starting your charges with anything less than 50% SOC.
For any needs > 50A (HPWC or 70A J1772 EVSE), you'll need to run conduit and use because you can't get NM-B cable in gauges greater than #6 AWG. C&W2G sells 160' of #3 for $185.60 (assuming 4 wires @ 40 ft each), plus the conduit (1 1/2") and fittings. You're probably looking at roughly $250-300.
Compare this to a 14-50 install... at Home Depot, a 50' roll of NM-B 6/3 runs $118.
Hope this helps make a decision.
Both wire sizes can be used in most 50 amp breakers, so if you install the #3 you can upgrade the breaker and receptacle later.�
Dec 1, 2012
derekt75 SolarCity is quoting me $650 for an outlet within 40 feet of the main breaker. I live in San Jose, CA. Can I do better? I tried to ask details from SolarCity, but they told me I'd get details from them after I signed. I asked if they were using conduit or bare Romex inside the garage. What's better? I think bare Romex along a garage wall probably looks better than conduit?
I also asked if they were going to run a wire from the main panel outside into the subpanel in the garage using existing conduit, or if they were going to run new conduit from the main panel outside directly to the outlet. Again, no answer.
Lastly, I asked about getting a 2nd outlet in the garage in case I wind up with two electric vehicles at some point. They didn't seem that interested, and said the price would be double for two outlets. How much more do you think it should cost to add a 2nd outlet?
How long does the install take? If parts are less than $200, I'm wondering how the price gets up to $650. I was thinking the work could be done in less than 3 hours.
Lastly, should I put the outlet on the door side of the garage or the house side of the garage? I think it's common to put it on the house side, but if the charge port is at the back of the car, wouldn't it be better to put the outlet next to the garage door?
thoughts?
Derek�
Dec 1, 2012
FlasherZ Here are my thoughts, in the order that they came to me:
I'm assuming you're talking about a NEMA 14-50R.
NM-B cable ("Romex") may be used where it is suitably protected from damage (methods in NEC article 334) but exposed Romex cannot be used where it is subject to physical damage. In general, most inspectors will call out exposed Romex below 7' as a safety concern. It should either be within a wall or a suitable conduit if it terminates below 7' above the floor.
As to whether they'd feed this circuit from the main or the subpanel in the garage, it would depend upon the size of the feeder and the current loads on the subpanel. It's much easier for a shorter run.
As for what looks better, my garage wall is a chipboard surface with schedule 40 PVC surface mounted and it looks fine. If you have drywall in the garage, PVC conduit on the surface looks fine, especially if you paint the conduit hold-downs. It's all subjective.
For 2 outlets, if you want the full current, nothing can be shared -- you'll need a new breaker, new wiring, new outlet, and new conduit (unless you want to run extremely large conduit to run 2 sets of wires). So 2x cost is appropriate.
My outlet is mounted on the door-side, to the left of the bay it is intended to service, because that's where many of the ports are being placed. The Leaf uses the front, though. So basically, "it depends."
Finally, as for $650 for a 40' circuit length: I believe that to be a reasonable price, whether Romex or THHN, because it'll either be labor costs (fishing through a wall to protect it) or conduit & fittings.�
Dec 1, 2012
derekt75 Yes, 14-50.
I guess I see the point about exposed Romex. Oh well. I can see how adding conduit would more time than just stapling down some wire.
The subpanel is pretty well used by the house. It doesn't contain the pool, air conditioners, or ovens, but the rest of the house is all run through the subpanel. I'd be surprised if they could add on 50A more off of that. Still, I'm hoping that they can run the new wire from the main panel to the subpanel through the existing channel (about ten feet long, inside the garage wall), rather than run conduit on the outside of my house. I'd pay extra for them to not need to run exposed conduit into the garage.
...
I'm surprised that the standard sized (3/4"?) electrical conduit would struggle to fit two 6/3 wires inside, but I've never played with 6 gauge wire before. (Does SolarCity use 8 gauge or 6 gauge? Another question left unanswered.)�
Dec 1, 2012
FlasherZ 6/3 is pretty large, it's about a 3/4" diameter.
Well, you're limited by two things: there is a maximum number of conductors permitted in a raceway before you must de-rate due to temperature concerns. It's not a matter of making them fit, but also dealing with temp rise and such. When you de-rate, you effectively have to bump up the wire size, which defeats the purpose of fitting them.
As a result, individual conduits are generally run.�
Dec 16, 2012
Babylonfive Well, finally did the install of 14-50 in my garage - was unsure about the extra distribution box and all the rules, so I paid to have it installed.
Included:
- extra dist. panel on power ingress side of the house next to main cut off
- 50A breakers in that panel
- conduit run up that side, through brick to attic, through attic to other side (garage side)
- punch thru brick to garage
- 14-50 plug install, flush
One question : is this install 'right side up' for the tesla plug?
�
Dec 16, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Uh oh... Unless the forum s/w flipped your image upside down (as seems to happen at times), you have it the wrong way around.
http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/downloads/universalmobileconnector_nema_14-50.pdf�
Dec 16, 2012
FlasherZ Yup, upside down. It's a simple fix, just take the screws out and turn it upside down.
Ground should be up.�
Dec 16, 2012
jerry33 The normal way to install a 14-50 is with the "round" hole up. I'd be kind of nervous about the rest of the set up if the electrician mounted it upside down.�
Dec 16, 2012
Darmok Turning it over may be easier said than done. The wire is very thick and difficult to bend, and if the wire comes in the box from the bottom it won't be just a matter of flipping the outlet over. I would think that the electrician should come back and handle that. If the homeowner does pull off the cover, at least make sure the circuit is off at the box.
P5265 Grey/Grey 60 kWH supercharging, air suspension, sound and tech packages
XP2065�
Dec 16, 2012
FlasherZ I'm not that concerned/nervous. Outlet orientation over the years has changed and has been the preference of the electrician. Personally, I mount outlets so that the safety ground pin is at the top -- that way if the plug gets pried out top-to-bottom, the hot terminals aren't exposed before the plug is nearly out. My machine shop was installed this way. However, my home was built with the ground pin down.
There is no code that defines this, and it is really up to the electrician. I wouldn't worry.�
Dec 16, 2012
jerry33 Okay, All the diagrams I have seen show the round hole up, so I thought that was the standard way.�
Dec 16, 2012
FlasherZ For what it's worth, while #6 is thick, I wouldn't call it "difficult" to bend. As to wiring coming into the box from the bottom vs. the top, if there isn't enough wiring to flip the receptacle, then your electrician isn't qualified. The code requires a reasonable wiring slack, and as wiring is inserted into the back of the receptacle, the maximum difference in length will be about 1.5 to 2 inches. 9 times out of 10, garage wiring will come from the top because the garage is a slab (and the OP noted a run through the attic).
I would feel confident telling the OP (or any reasonable homeowner) to turn the breaker off, take the screws out, and reorient the outlet. Of course, if they're nervous, and the electrician will come out to do it for free, by all means have them do it.
- - - Updated - - -
Surface-mount NEMA 14-50's generally have the conduit break-out on the ground-pin side. If your conduit comes from the bottom, you have to mount it ground-pin-down:
Surface-mount 14-50 receptacle�
Dec 16, 2012
Babylonfive Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'll swap it myself, and if its too tight I'll get them back. Great to have experts on here!�
Dec 16, 2012
FlasherZ By the way, if I weren't able to invert the outlet for any reason I'd consider using 16-penny nails to support the UMC above the outlet, I'd drive two nails at a downward angle, just far enough apart to fit the cable through, so that the UMC unit can rest on them, then I'd drive two nails above it to hold the long portion of the cable exiting the UMC unit in place; maintain a good bend radius in the cable and use two more nails as stress relief to get the cord pointed downward again.
Given the diameter of the UMC cable, those spring clips that hold brooms would also work to secure the UMC in place above the outlet too, observe the same bend radius to get the cord pointed downward again.�
Dec 19, 2012
pete8314 Just had 2 calls from Solarcity (having finalized yesterday). first call was to confirm basic details, and to arrange a longer call for a remote estimate. Second call was to say 'Sorry, we are no longer able to do any installs in Texas, so we'll send your details on to our partner, Mr Electric'.
I'm starting to feel that anyone in Texas that manages to take delivery of a Model S needs a special perseverance prize.�
Dec 21, 2012
mnx followup
Is there any reason I would want to do a 14-50 over a 6-50? It seems I could save a bit by having 1 less wire (since the HPWC only requires 2 wires + ground as well).
I figure putting in 3ga now while more expensive is a good idea incase i decide I need/want the HPWC later.
Thanks!
�
Dec 21, 2012
FlasherZ If you would ever figure on powering an RV from this outlet, or you might find yourself wanting to plug an electric stove/range into this at some point, you want a 14-50 because you'd require 120/240v. (I have acquaintances who plug in an electric range to their RV outlet during holiday seasons because they need extra cooking/baking power.)
Otherwise, a 6-50 is sufficient for most EV charging needs (just make sure if you buy an EVSE that you purchase a 240V one).
Given a small cost difference, I'll install 14-50's over 6-50's any day of the week and use legal adapter cords to create a 6-50 if I need one. Legal adapter cords don't exist in the opposite direction.
Given the cost of wire, I might suggest this: size your conduit (1.25") for #3 wire now but install only #6 in it. If you want the HPWC or a high-power EVSE in the future, use your old #6 to pull #3 wires.�
Dec 21, 2012
efusco Since I was running the wire, I had both the 14-50 and the set up for the HPWC placed at the same time. I hope that someday we'll acquire a Model X or some other EV and anticipate needing to have 2 cars plugged in at once. My original plan, actually, was to have a single 100amp subpanel and a switch to go b/w the HPWC and the 14-50, but my electrician just did both with negligible increase in cost.�
Dec 21, 2012
markb1 It seems to me the more likely benefit is you can charge your car at RV parks with the same adapter as you use to charge at home. This is important because Tesla generally only includes one 240V adapter with the car.�
Dec 21, 2012
FlasherZ Evan, that's what I'm recommending to most. Run a 125A feeder to your garage, put up a small 4-pole subpanel, and then you can have up to an HPWC + 14-50 there. This is what I did in my garage.�
Dec 21, 2012
gregincal Interestingly, here is the picture from the Tesla Mobile Connector Owners manual:
�
Dec 21, 2012
spleen I think that's just to show you what a 14-50 plug looks like. But the document from Tesla on preparation of your home for charging and installing the UMC / 14-50 outlet shows this:
�
Dec 21, 2012
Johan OK, some European perspective (if anyone is interested). I just finished the build of a new 2 car garage. I dug down (in a protective 50mm plastic tube) a wire called PFSP with 4 wires, each 10 mm2 diameter (a robust, well insulated cabel that cost me 8000 NOK = $1400 for 50 meters). It's rated at 40A at up to 500V. My grid connection is the "old style" EU 3-phase meaning 230Vx3, no ground (the more modern being 400V 3 legs/phases + ground). So my cable is future proof. I'm hoping to be able to charge at 230Vx3x32A (if Tesla will support this) which would give me something like 12.7 kW which is probably more than needed.
�
Dec 21, 2012
artsci Signed a contract with Solar City today for installation of solar panels on my townhouse in March. The installation will likely be complete by the time my Model S is delivered so I'll be running on sunshine from day one. That makes me very happy.�
Dec 21, 2012
xhawk101 Good taste, multicoat red now solar here too
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD�
Dec 22, 2012
Princeton96 For those of you that need to install an outlet outside or in a carport, here are some pictures and a description of my installation. I only have access to a carport and the outlet needed to be attached to a fence that is not under the carport roof. Based on a recommendation I received from a member of this forum, I purchased a Midwest Electric model U054 outdoor 15-40 receptacle. I had my electrician install it and it was a fairly simple process.
The door of the receptacle doesn't close all the way with the connector plugged in. That didn't surprise me, because the adaptor is pretty huge. However, we had a huge rain storm here last night and the outlet and the plug remained completely dry. The cover acts as a rain shield, even when it's not closed all the way. No issues at all with having the cord in the elements. The car and the charge port on the car are fully covered by the roof, so only the receptacle is out in the open.
Here are a couple of pictures. I did the painting and added the decal.
�
Dec 22, 2012
aaron.s Thanks for posting this!
I purchased this same outdoor outlet a week ago and will be having a friend install it in early January.
I've never seen a picture of it with the UMC plugged in and was wondering about how good it would protect against the rain. Glad to see that it acts as a rain shield since it is able to come down a bit from the fully open position.
By the way -- love your nice touch of painting it green and putting a Tesla decal on it!
Aaron�
Dec 22, 2012
Al Sherman Ok all you smart people. I don't know anything about, or ever mess with anything that can electrocute me or burn down the house. I'm getting the HPWC and twin chargers. I want to be able to get the max performance (miles of charge per hour) from the system. My electrician is going to stop by thi week for a heads up planning session. I know nothing.
What specifically do I tell him I need (when all is said and done) for my HPWC? Thanks in advance. I'm gonna print out what yo tell me.�
Dec 22, 2012
jerry33 Download this file and give it to your electrician.�
Dec 22, 2012
FlasherZ That will give him everything he needs to know.�
Dec 22, 2012
Princeton96 Glad you like my set up. I must admit, I was pretty nervous about the outlet staying dry in the rain. It rained and blew a gale here last night. When I went outside this morning and looked under the cover, it was bone dry. Lost a little sleep over it, however...
I added a cord hanging strap today to keep the excess cord out of the dirt. Here's an updated pic. The hanging strap was found at Home Depot with the bike hooks.
�
Dec 22, 2012
Darmok That is a very handsome install, @Princeton. And a handsome car as well!�
Dec 23, 2012
Al Sherman
Thanks as always and again Jerry. Thanks to Flasher also for confirming.
One more question (for now I guess): As long as the electrician will be doing the work are there any reasons I should also put in the NEMA outlet? Or is that just overkill? Would you do anything else specifically if the wife will eventually be getting an X on the other side of the two car garage? Oops I guess that's two questions.�
Dec 23, 2012
jerry33 Most Roadster owners indicate that a 14-50 is all most people normally need. The reasons to put in both are:
1. Charging a second car. Chances are very low that both will require a quick charge at the same time.
2. UMCs have been known to fail (there are a lot of posts about bad UMCs). Having both kinds means a failed UMC or HPWC won't prevent you from having a charged car.
3. It's likely to cost less than getting both done at separate times.
Unless there is something unforeseen that occurs, I intend to get both an HPWC and a 14-50.
Note that with the Roadster, it's more efficient to charge at 30-40 amps than 70 amps. If this remains true for the Model S (I don't think anyone has done the studies yet), then you'll likely set your HPWC to 40 amps as well. So when you get your Model X, one will be plugged into the 14-50 and one into the HPWC.�
Dec 23, 2012
sp4rk Solar panels on a townhouse?
Lucky you.
I tried that on my townhouse ... well, I tried to get permission from my board ... Illinois mandates they say yes. But they did a "clever". They refused to "sell" me or let me "manage" my shingles. So, any time after I installed the panels, they could have me take them down to "replace" their shingles.
You gotta love HOA's.
So I am now selling in Spring so I can go "independent" and solar.�
Dec 23, 2012
jerry33 HOAs are something to be avoided at all costs. I never understood why anyone would purchase a house that was under one, because there is always a you-know-what, on the committee.�
Dec 23, 2012
goaliemanshark Large HOAs suck. My 10 unit complex which in president of... Isn't a problem.
They are beneficial due to limited maintenance.
Also you could threaten to sue your HOA about that BS solar shingle ordeal. That's just silly.�
Dec 23, 2012
Fedderman I had Solar City install my 14-50 on Friday. My minor contribution was the hook to coil up the charging cable.�
Dec 23, 2012
montgom626 Nice setup. Can you put a simple cover over the entire assembly? to keep the majority of the rain off the plug?�
Dec 23, 2012
artsci Don't have permission yet but SolarCity is handling it. I own the house and the shingles to they can't play that game with me.�
Dec 23, 2012
Princeton96 Thought about doing that, but it doesn't seem necessary at this point. The plug and outlet have remained dry. Rain is all on the exterior. We don't get much rain here and never any snow. If I was in an area with worse weather, I probably would look in to a different or additional cover.�
Dec 27, 2012
ModelS8794 I have a ~90 foot total run from my main panel in the basement to where I'd like the receptacle (either 14-50 or 6-50) in the garage. Currently I have a ~65 foot run of 8/3 NM-B copper hooked up to a 50 Amp breaker. This was for an electric range that we don't use and it's like 90% of the basement run, so I thought I'd reroute it to the garage making the rest of the run only 25 ft or so. Electrician came out, said the 8/3 wiring was improperly installed b/c it should never have been on the 50 amp circuit in the first place, and he'd insist on running #6 wiring on that 50 amp circuit for a 14-50 plug.
Does that sound right to the electricians on the forum here? I was surprised to hear the kitchen range wiring would not be to code, the house was built in 2002 and everything else I have seen looks to be installed in tip-top shape.
I'm also wondering if there's any difference in the wiring I would need for a 14-50 vs a 6-50, specifically whether the 8/3 wiring already in place would be ok for one if not for both. My understanding is even though I have a single charger and need a 40 amp continuous draw, I still need to use a 50 amp circuit breaker. But does that also mean I can't use the 8/3 wiring already in place?
TIA, and apologies if i screwed up terminology asking the above questions�
Dec 27, 2012
mnx I found some 3/3 NMD90 (same as NM-B I believe) locally (home hardware) It's 7$ per foot.
A little pricey, but I don't have to mess around with conduit this way. Makes the upgrade future proof (to upgrade to HPWC) also.
�
Dec 27, 2012
markb1 I know that for short distances, 8 AWG is fine, but for long distances, you need 6 AWG. I'm not sure where the cutoff is, but I suspect your electrician is correct.
The only difference in wiring between 14-50 and 6-50 is that there is no neutral wire (the Model S doesn't require neutral) so you could use 6/2 instead of 6/3. If your run of 8/3 is too long for a 14-50, it's too long for a 6-50, as well.�
Dec 27, 2012
FlasherZ You can use 3/3 because you're in Canada. Those in the US cannot use it.
3/3 NMD90 cable is allowed to be used according to the Canadian Electrical Code, but not the NEC. NEC 334.80 requires that type NM cable -- regardless of its rating -- be used at the 60 degree rating. For #3, that's only 85A, not 100A. "The allowable ampacity shall not exceed that of a 60degC (140degF) rated conductor. The 90degC rating shall be permitted to be used for ampacity adjustment and correction, provided the final derated ampacity does not exceed that of a 60degC rated conductor."
Also, keep in mind that NM cable requires protection, so as long as you keep it in a wall, you're fine. It won't pass inspection if it's exposed below 7' above the floor. Generally, I've found that NM cable bigger than AWG #6 is more costly than running conduit and using THHN anyway.
- - - Updated - - -
NM-B cable must be used at the 60 degree rating (despite containing 90 degree conductors), and NM-B 8/3 is only good to 40A circuit rating at 60 degrees C. You can use 3 #8 THHN conductors in conduit up to 200' for 50A, but not NM-B. #8 leaves very little room for de-rating (e.g., a hot attic), so most electricians just use #6.
As for 6-50 vs. 14-50, it won't matter. You just need one more conductor for the 14-50 (neutral).�
Dec 27, 2012
dbullard I'm upgrading my breaker panel next week (old Federal Pacific Electric), as well as adding the 14-50 plug, and I'd thought I'd share the costs to those who were interested.
The breaker panel replacement will be about $1500. That's on the opposite side of the door where I want the plug to be (the plug will be about 4 ft from the car), so the lines has to run up through the attic over and then back down - that's $290 total (breaker, wiring, plug, labor).
Three contractors bid on it, Solar City was by far the highest. I have other items being done as well (since they're out here), and only one contractor broke everything down into units of work, so it's hard to tell - but both contractors bid about about $2500 and Solar City was $2900.
It should be noted that Solar City didn't come out to inspect the property - it was all done by phone and emailing pictures. I'm in Portland, OR, in case you were wondering.
FYI, it really, really pays to check Angie's List for this kind of stuff (you can now pay for just a month's membership). The first contractor seemed more professional (better web site, nicer truck, uniforms, etc), but checking ratings on Angie's List showed the other contractor to have far better satisfaction and fewer complaints.
Worth knowing.
Only a month or two left to go...�
Dec 27, 2012
GDH I'm in Portland. Which electrician are you using?�
Dec 27, 2012
dbullard Mike's Electric. Among other things, they quoted an expected low and high end for each part of job, while stating that it could vary based on actual work. Reviews on Angie's List showed that they will sometimes charge less than estimated.
Also, very, very few bad reviews, while they have more total than the other contractor, so it's not just statistical noise.�
Dec 27, 2012
GDH Thanks, I will call him for a quote as well. I knew Solar City would be high so I wasn't going to even waste my time calling them.�
Dec 28, 2012
Larry Hutchinson Your situation sounds very similar to mine. I don't have any free breakers with the possible exception of a range that is unused since we switched to a gas stove. Perhaps that can be used to save the cost of a new panel.
I'll have to give Mike's a call when the time comes (April, I think.)�
Jan 1, 2013
GDH Does anyone know if you can pick a time for your MS to automatically start charging, like between 10pm and 6am?...does the MS have this option?�
Jan 1, 2013
efusco Not yet, but it was an advertised feature that we expect with future updates and the app.�
Jan 1, 2013
GDH Sweet!�
Jan 8, 2013
mnx Just picked up 125' of 3ga teck cable yesterday.
�
Jan 8, 2013
mitch672 Delayed start/stop was recently added to the OpenEVSE project, so if you had built one of those, adding an inexpensive $9-$15 I2C date module and reprogramming the chip gets you delayed start/stop capability. Handy until Tesla releases the timers built into the Model S... 75A OpenEVSE I built: http://code.google.com/p/open-evse/wiki/75AOpenEVSE�
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét