Dec 11, 2014
standardcode I am a long-time lurker, first-time poster so please forgive me if this is in the wrong place or something.
I picked up my baby (Silver S85, VIN P26783) on 12/14/13. It's been almost a year of stellar driving and mostly stellar service experience while I racked up 21,000 miles on my baby I named Cassie. Until last week. I got into a small accident... It all went downhill from there....
The accident happened in Midtown Manhattan. I called 911, and then immediately called Tesla Roadside. Since the S has no spare tire I had to wait for the tow truck Tesla arranged. It took more than 90 minutes for the tow truck to arrive to take my baby to the Tesla-authorized body shop.
So the Tesla-certified body shop takes apart my car to check for the damage and meets the appraiser sent by my insurance (Ameriprise) to discuss the repair. A day later it turns out that Ameriprise is declaring my baby a total loss!! Why you ask? Apparently Tesla-certified body shops aren't cheap. In addition to the $10,000 in parts there's $20,000 in labor. Ameriprise decided they'd rather declare the car a total loss than pay $30k+tax for repair. Why you ask? Well here goes...
Since there's no KBB value for the S, apparently the insurance company can just arbitrarily decide the value! As it stands right now they estimate the value of my <1 year old perfectly maintained $90,000 baby at $70,000! (I owe $70k to US Bank on the car!) When I tried reaching Tesla to get a value so I can argue with the insurance company they first promised callbacks that never came and are now saying they don't know if they can give me a value at all.
Has anyone else had any such an experience before? Any advice on how to proceed with Ameriprise, the body shop and/or Tesla?�
Dec 11, 2014
Dwdnjck Maybe. Ameriprise thinks that they can repair and sell your car with a lower loss than having it repaired by the approved body shop. You might try to get a second opinion on repair cost if your car is drivable. Tesla approved body shops often take advantage of their "status."�
Dec 11, 2014
JST So...have you looked around to see what similar cars are selling for?�
Dec 11, 2014
standardcode I tried but I couldn't find anything! It's a silver S85 with parking sensors, black leather seats, Tech package, smart air suspension and center console. Picked up 12/14/14 and has approximately 21,000 miles. Perfect condition (before the accident) with just a few minor paint stains. How would I find a value?�
Dec 11, 2014
Kbsilver I am not currently a Tesla Owner. I am very interested, but the INSANE repair costs of these vehicles may be the reason I do not become an owner (along with the resulting increasing Tesla insurance rates because of these costs). Not long ago I had a BMW that needed a fender and door, not too much different in damage than this (but not a wheel & tire). Repair costs were under $5K done at a BMW authorized repair center (in NJ). Tesla either needs to smack these "authorized" body shops around, or really ramp up the certification program to get some cost leveling competition going.�
Dec 11, 2014
breser I presume you mean December 14th, 2013? Assuming that the $90k number you posted above was what you paid for it new, $70k sounds about right for it on the used market. It might actually even be rather generous.�
Dec 11, 2014
andrewket Use ebay and auction house data to establish the value. Present it and tell them you want $x. They'll likely negotiate. However, $70k might in fact be FMV.�
Dec 11, 2014
ZBB That's what I was thinking...�
Dec 11, 2014
standardcode I did mean 12/14/13. Sorry. So assume that $70k is a fair value, I am still losing a ton of money because of the huge repair costs! I agree with Kbsilver that Tesla need to put pressure on these certified facilities to be more reasonable. This is experience is the opposite of my Tesla experience so far and the opposite of what they say they want (like not making money on service etc.)
Before this I didn't for a second doubt buying another Tesla as my next car in two years. Now that I may be forced to buy a new car after just a year, I simply can't justify getting another Tesla. Essentially I paid my monthly finance payments PLUS all of my down payment, for just one year of driving! I'd love a nice new 85D but the numbers just don't make sense if the smallest accident = a total loss.�
Dec 11, 2014
ZBB Why are you losing money in repair costs?
If the insurance declared it a loss, they should pay you the $70k less your deductible. Use that to pay out a loan and you are only "out" depreciation -- but you were out that anyway. You order a new Tesla and move on.
If they didn't declare it a loss, they pay to repair it. You pay your deductible. Car gets fixed and you still have it. BUT -- the car was damaged and repaired -- so will take a further depreciation hit.
Sounds like you are coming out ahead by them totaling it...�
Dec 11, 2014
breser You say you couldn't find any comparables but in just a few minutes I found three just in the for sale section of this site.
A 2013 S85 with 22,000 miles on it for $79,000:
2013 Model S 85kWh $79,000
Another one with 12,700 for $72,000:
2013 Tesla Model S 85, Black, seats 7, $12,700miles
Another with 10,000 miles for $74,900:
2013 Model S 85 blue/ tan interior
Those are just on this site and are of course just the asking price. I can see them being talked down from those numbers.�
Dec 11, 2014
lolachampcar I replaced my wife's car at 3500 miles when it was hit from the side. Damage was RR quarter plus two right door shells and, given a similar repair here in Florida, was likely going to be $25K. I was also looking at $15K in diminished value for the car having been in a major accident.
$30K for yours with more (deeper) damage sounds consistent.
The issue becomes what you could sell your car for as is combined with a negotiated settlement with your insurance against what it cost you to replace it.
90K new minus 7.5 in Fed Tax Rebate yields 82.5K
I use $1/mile as this has been my depreciation experience with similar price range BMWs which takes you to 61.5K. This is only my number and is based on trade in value when I pick up the next car (typically 3yrs/40K miles).
At 61.5k, the insurance company can sell the car at auction for 40K thus being out of pocket 21.5K. A shop will pull a quarter from another wreck and replace it on the cheap and turn around and sell the car coming out of a salvage title for $55K retail.
If you take the cash from your insurance company and find someone trading in a MS for a new one (and accepting Tesla's trade in value) offering them a few thousand extra, you may be able to pick up a replacement for $65K. The alternative is to negotiate a number they will pay without totaling your car then sell your car yourself (has the benefit of not being a salvage title which adds value) as is then pick up a replacement.
It sucks no matter what you do. It is the nature of the game.
Also, I find insurance companies use wholesale numbers to determine the value of your car when they total it which, obviously, is not how you would value it.�
Dec 11, 2014
Xenoilphobe Sounds like a great excuse to get a "D".�
Dec 11, 2014
mitch672 I think you meant to say "12/14/13", since 12/14/14 is in the future by a few days.
I received a trade-in offer from Tesla on my DEC 2012 Model S, picked up in early January 2013 of $55K, I have similar equipment, no parking sensors or power folding mirrors, but every other option they had at the time, was $90K originally.
has 22,000 miles on it, so similar mileage as well. They could probably sel my car for about $62K or so.
welcome to the world of high depreciation luxury cars.�
Dec 11, 2014
andrewket By the way, several insurance companies offer replacement value policies. It costs more, but I think that's what I'm going to do for the first/second year of the P85D.�
Dec 11, 2014
lolachampcar ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes!!! What he said.�
Dec 11, 2014
apacheguy I know that's what people say, but it never makes sense to me how we all assume a linear scale. At $1 per mile, my MS will be worthless at 90 K. I've still made a decent amount off of selling my previous ICEs that have had more miles than that. And this is an EV, which should depreciate less than an ICE.�
Dec 11, 2014
sickfox that sucks! i hope everything gets ironed out!�
Dec 11, 2014
Jaff Standardcode...I am not familiar with U.S. insurance policies...but, many insurance companies offer a guaranteed value or a replacement cost endorsement that can be added to your auto policy when you buy a new car.
In my jurisdiction, if you have this endorsement on your policy, if your car is a w/o, then the settlement amount is not depreciated.
You should check your policy to see if it contains this endorsement...if not, you should check with your insurance company to see if they sell such an endorsement. ..if so, was it offered to you by your sales agent?�
Dec 11, 2014
breser I'd say most insurance companies do not offer this in the US. It's certainly available, but the majority of companies don't offer it. If he had it he'd know for sure that he bought it.�
Dec 11, 2014
lolachampcar apacheguy
I was very careful to say that I use this number based on my purchase patterns (trade in on new when my car is typically 3yrs/40K miles). This is only a snapshot in time. Trade in a year earlier and the depreciation per mile is more, trade a year later and it will be less. I just need a number that sets my own expectations so that I properly discount the accident damaged car for the milage on it when I replace it.
I do not expect my number to work for everyone.�
Dec 11, 2014
Jaff Wow...the overwhelming majority of insurers in Canada offer it...when you do replace your vehicle, if you are able, you should look to switch to a company that offers said coverage...�
Dec 11, 2014
ecarfan In the US there are "agreed value" policies and "stated value" policies. They are very different, they cost more, and they are both different from what almost everyone typically has. They are often used by vintage/classic car owners and may have annual mileage restrictions. So they don't really apply to this discussion.
I too am concerned about Tesla repair costs. But I think if your insurers is offering you $70K for the car that sounds reasonable based on the current market.�
Dec 11, 2014
Jaff They are offered by virtually all major insurance companies in Canada...on any new car, not just on antique or classic cars...you guys have it tough I guess...�
Dec 11, 2014
callmesam Let me correct one slight misunderstanding. Insurance rates are a function of INJURIES not property damage, in general. Which is why current Tesla Model S premiums are much lower than similar performance vehicles. If you don't believe, go price out insurance for a Mercedes S550 or Porsche Panamera. The Model S protects occupants very well, resulting in low injury rates and low premiums.�
Dec 11, 2014
JST If the car were cheaper to fix, it wouldn't be so readily totaled. The high repair costs are thus forcing him to eat the depreciation more quickly than anticipated. That's a real loss in value.
Yes, he is "made whole" in the sense that he is getting the value of the car today, but the depreciation curve on cars means that his cost per mile is going to be higher than if he'd been able to keep the car for XX years.
Edit--I also think that $70 is probably a pretty fair offer at this point, given the glut of used cars on the market in the wake of the D intro. The good news is that this means you might be able to find a used car for not significantly more than your payout.
If I were you, I'd look around for a '13 P85. It's a nice upgrade, but won't require the big outlay a new one would. Plus, they aren't making any more of those.�
Dec 11, 2014
andrewket Allstate offers replacement value in the US. It's part of their "new car program". Comes with some other perks, like accident forgiveness (which I've always thought was silly. You're basically pre-paying for an accident that you may not have.)�
Dec 11, 2014
drsaab They will pay off your loan. You can get another same car used or better for 70k in the current market, and get a new loan. Better than driving a tesla around with an accident and a bad carfax. They are doing you a favor by totalling it.�
Dec 11, 2014
yobigd20 Keep telling yourself that until you get your next bill. Many of us (I won't say ALL of us), including me, have just got our next 6mo bill and it's gone up about ~$200/yr. the increase was mostly in collision and liability. I have a perfect driving record, so nothing to do with me personally. many of us thus asked our insurance companies "why the raise?!?!" ALL of us got the same response from different insurance companies: the Tesla Model S has the highest accident rates and the highest cost of repairs and the highest rate of total loss valuations. So, they have to raise rates to make money or else they'll need to stop insuring Tesla vehicles. It has nothing to do with injuries. It is 100% due to the price gouging at the certified repair shops and Tesla's refusal to sell parts to independent shops. THIS HAS GOT TO STOP AND MUST BE ESCALATED UP TO JEROME/ELON.�
Dec 11, 2014
Brightonuk Sorry to hear mate don't care what these guys say it was your baby and now the insurance company is shafting you, it don't matter the going rate the thought of owing $70K to the bank and now after 1 year you just spent $20k on a rental
I just had a scrape and the Tesla appointed body shop told me to contact this lawyer they always use and sue for "depreciation" and "loss of use" whatever that means.
I don't know if that is even an option for you I am sure there are a couple of briefs on the forum can chime in.
Good luck�
Dec 11, 2014
EarlyAdopter And yet many of us, myself included, haven't seen any increases in our premiums, in my case in nearly 2 years. In fact, mine has gone down slightly. How do you explain that?�
Dec 11, 2014
SBR What insurance company? I just got a quote and it's costing me more to insure my p85d than our flying spur speed. Now THAT is insane. I have geico.�
Dec 11, 2014
yobigd20 Initially mine was much cheaper too but it's gone up on every renewal with the most significant increase (much higher than the previous two smaller increases) just a few weeks ago. Initially they had no data to compare it to. But now they are well seasoned into knowing MS price premiums for repairs and they just shot their rates up for Tesla's significantly.�
Dec 11, 2014
EarlyAdopter Progressive.�
Dec 11, 2014
100thMonkey hate to admit it, if my insurance company would total out my car and give me roughly 75% of it's value after a year and 21,000, i'd consider that a pretty sweet deal! every one of us with a vehicle before the D has lost way more than that in basic depreciation, my P85+ now has the proud distinction of being a discontinued vehicle. Don't get me wrong, I love my + but I'd be grateful I didn't get hurt in the accident, I'd take the money and leverage the value by ordering a D, then I'd call all my friends and throw a party!�
Dec 11, 2014
SBR I'm going to give progressive a call tomorrow for all our cars... Thanks for the tip�
Dec 12, 2014
callmesam Over 17 months and my premiums are now less than my 10 year old BMW. No increases. Yet.
But I'm confident they will be rising Tesla "soon". :biggrin:�
Dec 12, 2014
RobStark Tesla is asking their certified shops to buy all new equipment to work on aluminum including expensive frame machines.
Frame machines made to work on Audi A8 and Jaguar XJ are not good enough for Tesla.
These repair shops don't see many Teslas so they charge high rates for repair. But if everything gets totaled then these repair shops are not making any money on Tesla repairs.
Further, if Tesla starts declaring these vehicles inoperable then individual buyers in the salvage market will avoid these vehicles and only junk yards will buy these totaled Teslas for dismantling. This greatly depresses prices for totaled Teslas and monies recovered by insurance companies. Further increasing the cost to insurance companies for Tesla vehicles relative to BMW MB and AUDI. Further increasing insurance rates to Tesla owners.�
Dec 12, 2014
JST Why aren't the existing frame machines good enough?�
Dec 12, 2014
dougkkk Sorry about what happened to you man. And your car too. Of course, maybe next time you will be more careful. Hope you get well soon. Same goes for your ride.�
Dec 12, 2014
lolachampcar Rob,
Less residual means fewer totaled cars......... If the insurance company goes from getting $40K for this car at auction to $20K, the math to total looks significantly less attractive.�
Dec 12, 2014
standardcode It seems the board is split. There are some of you who (like me until last week) will rationalize anything Tesla and some who realize that there's something seriously wrong here. For the former, please help me rationalize this:
I paid $17,000 as a down payment for the car (this includes about $8000 in sales tax I will never see back and will pay again on the next car).
I paid $2400 for 4 years of service three of which I'll never see.
Over the past year I paid $15,000 in principal and interest.
Assuming I do get $70k from Ameriprise to pay off my loan I essentially paid $34,000 (or $2800+/month!) to drive a S85 for 12 months!
That's simply insane.
Tesla may be the best car ever produced but it's not worth $34k a year!�
Dec 12, 2014
yobigd20 Progressive has been known to be a problem when it comes to tesla repairs. There are several incidents on these forums of Progressive giving a very low valuation and deeming total losses and not giving any diminished value. This example is just another one of those 100% cosmetic , non-structural incidents where a perfectly good Tesla is going to be sent to the junkyard. And of course since Tesla won't touch salvage and won't sell parts to anyone, it makes me want to cry.
Unfortunately for me, I'm also with Progressive. I plan on switching next year. Problem for me is that with 60k+ miles now, it doesn't matter who I go with. It'll get such a low valuation from anyone that if I get a scratch they all will declare it a total loss. Good thing I got GAP insurance.�
Dec 12, 2014
RobStark Ask Tesla.
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In theory. In practice insurance adjusters and their supervisors do what is best for them not necessarily what is best financially for the company as a whole.
Adjusters are scared of new technology and the possibility of never ending supplemental repairs. Where additional damage is found after repairs commence and are authorized. Or battery is found to be damaged after initial body repairs were made. Or where the owner complains that the car is not the same after the accident .
Unlike inspecting an engine block for cracks adjusters don't know if the battery is OK or if the adjustable suspension is OK. Maybe they can't truly know until Model S is repaired and taken for a test drive.
From the adjusters POV, just total it and get rid of potential headache. Exaggerate your estimate if you have to.
Edit: Cool, 1000th post for me on TMC.�
Dec 12, 2014
NigelM Ummm, you put the statement out there without source or quotes. If it's just an opinion then please say so.�
Dec 12, 2014
RobStark Umm. I read articles that Tesla requires a different frame machine for aluminum frames from those required from Audi and Jaguar. In those articles they did not say why.
Also read that a certified aluminum welder for Audi and Jaguar is not automatically certified to work on Tesla vehicles. Must go through Tesla training too.
* Read these articles several months ago after salvage Tesla problems made the news. Did not save links nor will I go googling to find them. AFAIK TMC is not a peered reviewed journal where all one's statements must be referenced.�
Dec 12, 2014
JST That sucks. The service thing especially is annoying--it really should be transferable in the event the car is totaled.
But the real problem here isn't the insurance. It's the depreciation, which is precipitous. Tesla's policies on body shops aren't helping, but given the lost value you'd have with a repair you probably really are better off taking the money and looking for a (used) replacement car.�
Dec 12, 2014
standardcode My plan was to drive it for 3 years and then use Tesla's guaranteed buyback. Considering the car has no structural damage and would have been repaired with Tesla authorized body parts at a Tesla authorized facility why would the accident affect that?�
Dec 12, 2014
NigelM This situation where the car gets totaled after a minor accident is ridiculous which ever way one looks at it. You're understandably looking at your financial impact a certain way but that not directly the fault of either the insurance company nor Tesla.
Taxes are taxes, no matter what car. Your real down payment was $9,000.
You choose to take the risk on a pre-paid service contract; most people don't view service agreements as having any risk but paid upfront money can be lost if an unfortunate accident occurs.
Taking a loan to buy the car was also personal choice; interest paid on any loan is always sunk money that isn't coming back, it's no worse because the loan agreement ends abruptly.
I sympathize with your position but the real issue is the high cost of repair and it would be better for Tesla if they looked at the situation again to recognize that the current repair and parts supply policies are probably going to be detrimental to long-term business. That's probably not very helpful to you right now; the only suggestion I have is to push it up the chain at Tesla.�
Dec 12, 2014
standardcode However you choose to phrase it, the economics of buying a Tesla vs. say a Lexus are such that a minor accident will double your cost of ownership. So much for the "true cost of ownership" calculators...�
Dec 12, 2014
NigelM Statements don't need to be referenced but when another member asked it would have been helpful to reply so we'd know if your statement was fact or just opinion. It's odd to participate in a forum but be dismissive about engaging; still, that's your prerogative.
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True, there's no disagreement that a minor scrape shouldn't cause a car to be totaled and that getting into a scrape can make a horrible mess of the ownership economics.�
Dec 12, 2014
Mnlevin I didn't read the whole thread, but there are a lot of opinions on this topic. Simply I would check to see if your policy has REPLACMENT COST as an option. You could find a nice used MS and purchase it (Insurance Co would have to pay the cost less deductible) and you can do a Collateral Assignment with the bank and continue your excellent journey. There are plenty of nice MS on the market right now, seems like a great solution with little down time or money out of pocket�
Dec 12, 2014
Kbsilver Guess I'm still missing something. In my experience insurance companies would not total a car until the repairs exceeded 80% of current (pre-accident) value. I know I might be math challenged, but a $30K repair is no where near, not even close, to 80% of the cars' $70K value.�
Dec 12, 2014
standardcode You and me both my friend.�
Dec 12, 2014
voidptr Is there any damage other than what's in the photo? It looks like you trashed the rear door, quarter panel, and wheel.
Granted, I don't live in NYC and I'm not an insurance adjuster, but I had a deer crumple the front quarter panel and both driver's side doors a year ago, and it was just under $10k for repair. IIRC, it was about a 40/60 split between parts and labor. $30k seems excessively high even after the Tesla repair tax.�
Dec 12, 2014
standardcode That's the extent of the damage.
I am shopping around for a Lexus. I don't have time to deal with this anymore. It was an expensive lesson but I think I am moving on.�
Dec 12, 2014
drsaab Your math is off. You paid 104k. You get 7500 back from govt. Ins company will give you sales tax. So that's 5000. So you get 75000. You paid 97000. So your losing 22000. That's normal for a 100k car in 1st year. You can buy another for 75000 with tax so your net no loss at all. You just have to compromise color etc if you need one asap. There's many out for sale now with similar specs and price. Hence a big hassle. But no loss except your prepaid service. And some used have that plus the 100k wtty.�
Dec 12, 2014
ecarfan That is an unfortunate outcome to this sad story. I think the OP got screwed on the repair cost. Of course, he is in NYC where costs are high It seems that others have not had to pay nearly as much to repair more damage.
I think @drsaab analysis is correct. It should be possible to buy a similar used S with the insurance payout, there are plenty available. I would urge the OP to reconsider buying an ICE replacement. After driving a Tesla an ICE is a big letdown.�
Dec 12, 2014
stevezzzz When I had to have body work done after a piece of truck tire tread got kicked up by another car and hit my S on the hood and fender, my insurance company never mentioned diminished value. What's the story there? It makes sense that the car is worth less with a damage history (even though it's strictly cosmetic and the repair is perfect), but I didn't know you could claim it as an insurable loss.
As another data point in the high-cost-of-repairs saga, the work at a Tesla Certified shop came in at $10K, which is nearly 4x what the adjuster initially estimated. I had tried to have another high-end shop do the work, but Tesla gave them such a hard time over parts that they ultimately declined to take the job.�
Dec 12, 2014
3mp_kwh FWIW, I'd negotiate with your insurance and plan to go to a non-approved facility. This isn't major, and while you may need OE panels, these things are out there in the salvage market, most likely as OE anyway. This would seem least painful. You may still end up with a tainted carfax, autocheck, etc, but you can have something cosmetic, like this, taken care of and be on your way. There can be huge difference between walking in with an "insurance repair" and "out of pocket" request. Totally different transactions.
Car insurance is less, and less, worth it. The lost value of destroying your car's "record" pays for the repair. And the insurance co. helps destroy the record (everyone low-balls an "accident" car). Your's is the outcome that sucks. In a similar sitch, I settled with a guy who hit me, no lawyers, or insurance co's, and with a different car. He was going to have a claim on his record. I was going to see damage on mine. Your's is more involved. Good luck.
[Keep that pic of your car, and maybe another of the VIN. Critical if you sell privately, and cheap "insurance" to have them even if you don't plan on going this way.]�
Dec 12, 2014
JohnQ It may be too late, and you may not want to tow the car to another facility if it's not drivable, but get another estimate from another certified body shop. I don't know about Long Island but there are two in Westchester (Mt Kisco and Mt Vernon). It's not unheard of for a body shop to inflate the repair charges.�
Dec 12, 2014
Mike_Schlechter If you haven't already, reach out to Omar in LI or Alan in CT and talk to them. Both are fantastically helpful and I'm sure can push for the valuation as well as potentially talking to the body shop / recommending another one.
Good luck and glad you were uninjured!!�
Dec 12, 2014
stevej119 I would flip this around and look at the "glass half full" side of this. If you haven't done it yet, immediately request a list of "inventory cars" from Tesla. I recently purchased an S85 MC red, tech, obeche wood, matching yacht floor, Nappa leather, parking sensors, 6856 miles for $71,800. This car does not have the new Autopilot sensors, but has everything else. Does New York have a state incentive? In CA, my price drops 10k including federal and state incentives bringing the price to under $62k (plus sales tax on $72k) for a car with full warranty (4 years, to 56,856 on the odometer).
You can look at it as having paid $34,000 to have owned your car for one year, or you can look at it as an opportunity to reset your warranty period to day one, and get a newer more updated car with far fewer miles than you had driven. Granted, you won't get an autopilot demo with the 2% per month in service discount offered on non-autopilot cars (you'll get 1% per month in service, $1 per mile driven), but I would personally be thrilled to be able to update to the latest features and new full warranty and resetting the odometer to a lower number for a few thousand dollars.
I could be wrong, but I'd also have a very hard time imagining that Tesla would not transfer your service agreement to another car you purchase from them.�
Dec 12, 2014
Zextraterrestrial mash the aluminum back in place a little bondo and a new wheel, some paint and call it good!�
Dec 12, 2014
stevej119 Please forgive my ignorance on this one as I've never gone through the exprerience of replacing a "totaled" car, but are you certain $70,000 is the total amount they'll be giving you and that sales tax won't be added to that? If they're valuing the replacement price of your car at $70k before tax, your cost is higher than that by the amount of the sales tax and it would seem logical that the sales tax would be included. I work in a different industry, but I've found that the difference between getting the sales tax included in the payment and not getting the sales tax included is simply a matter of knowing to ask for it.�
Dec 12, 2014
skilly Moreover, the MS is a completely different animal altogether. The $1 per mile ^might^ be somewhat effective in determining the cost for a ICE powered car (its still very high) due to the wear part and unknown status thereof. That said the MS has very little unknown provided the battery has warranty or a clean bill of heath youre talking about a car that breaks all of the rules in determining used value. People are simply applying market elements to a car that doesnt fit them...sorry to hear about your loss!�
Dec 12, 2014
Brass Guy Sounds pretty good - take the (insurance) money and run. The insurance company will come up with a lesser payout where you keep the car. Repair it and the insurance company will look at it to re-insure it.
From other threads I've read I'm getting the impression that Tesla shuts down cars declared "total loss." Just contact Tesla before going this route and be sure of how they will treat the situation - probably an inspection followed by re-enabling the car.�
Dec 12, 2014
rlang59 The $1/mile is what Tesla has been using which is why it keeps getting referenced.�
Dec 12, 2014
TexasEV �
Dec 12, 2014
drsaab If you really want to keep the car. I would get a second estimate at any high end aluminum shop. It is laughable that the minimal damage would salvage that car. you can throw a wheel and tire on for $250 for now and drive it for a few estimates. The hard part is its the quarter panel which needs to be welded.
A salvage shop would fix this car for like 3-5k max!
Ameriprise might pay you a check for the repair at $30k.
Then you drove the car almost free for a year.
there are lots of options open to you.�
Dec 12, 2014
breser Other similarly situated people were not able to do so. The contract explicitly says it cannot be transferred to another vehicle.
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The wheel/tire estimate is a little low. A tire is probably about $250 (Primacy tires are currently $263 a piece on tire rack, but you certainly could put something cheaper on). If the wheel is still drivable that would be fine. But if the wheel is damaged such that you shouldn't drive on it you'll need a $300 wheel (Tesla's new price, might be able to find one cheaper that's used).�
Dec 12, 2014
rlang59 I believe that they have given a prorated refund to at least one person in the past when their car got totaled.
Here is the thread:
Resolved: Prepaid Service Plan Initially Not Transferable (now prorated)�
Dec 12, 2014
standardcode I was wrong and you are right! They are saying they will refund me for tax as well. This does change the numbers a bit and I am considering an inventory car now especially if I can transfer my ranger service. Obviously I am going to go for replacement value insurance or maybe even one of those "one model year newer" options if I get another S.�
Dec 12, 2014
breser I stand corrected. I must have missed the resolution to that thread.�
Dec 12, 2014
drsaab When I said 250 for a wheel I meant any compatible 19" wheel off tire rack with the cheapest tire. It would get you anywhere you need to get the estimates/info and buy you time till a replacement car or decision is made.�
Dec 12, 2014
stevej119 When you factor in the tax credit, you probably are faring better with the Tesla than you would have with any other car. Granted, an ICE luxury brand may not have been "totaled," but you get to upgrade to the new features! I'm very happy for you that this seems to be turning out well.�
Dec 12, 2014
shadowinstallz Sorry bout the accident, but given the 70k from insurance that is a very fair deal. You shouldn't look at what you initially paid w/taxes and interest because that really has nothing to do with the vehicle value itself. 70k for 1 year old 20+k mileage is market value imho�
Dec 12, 2014
Aljohn Oddly, it is not limited to Tesla. Any premium vehicle will most likely be totaled. It is because the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. It is more profitable to sell the components of the car: Battery, finders, rims, etc. I had a similar incident with my Audi A8. It was totaled for minor front end damage. Fortunately, it did have a KBB, so the fair market value could be determined.
Since it's appears minor body damage, there are many body shops who are certified to repair Aluminum bodies. Audi A8s are also Aluminum. I would search for other repair resources. Also, you could counter with the insurance company's offer -- Use the resale value of the demo, less the repair cost. (do the math first). Just a couple of alternatives that came to mind. Hope it works out.�
Dec 12, 2014
Todd Burch I also witnessed first-hand how seemingly relatively minor damage can end up totalling this car, and lost about $12K in depreciation as a result. Would be nice if Tesla tried to get this under control.�
Dec 12, 2014
stopcrazypp Well, the Tesla is an aluminum vehicle (which shrinks the number of shops that can work on it) and currently it's still a relatively low volume make (which shrinks it down further).
As for Tesla selling parts to non-certified shops, they don't have enough volume for that to make sense yet. It probably costs them a lot less to deal with things on a case-by-case basis (as there isn't that many totaled Tesla's out there and they have done so in the past: http://www.teslamotors.com/it_IT/forum/forums/no-tesla-certified-body-shop-hawaii) than to deal with any issues with independent shops buying parts from them and improperly installing them.�
Dec 13, 2014
Martini Why not buy a used Tesla with a value near your insurance payout? It seems like cars comparable to yours are available at the price you are getting from your insurer. That makes it a zero-cost experience. If you want to get a newer car, then you are basically going out of pocket for an upgrade.
- - - Updated - - -
But depreciation cuts both ways--you have access to cheaper cars on the used market.�
Dec 13, 2014
smsprague Check out the brown one for $64,500 on this forum - sounds pretty similar
2013 Tesla S85, brown, tan interior 2013 Tesla S85, brown, tan interior�
Dec 13, 2014
MsElectric First of all, so sorry for your loss but there are two parts to your post...
I actually think the $70K valuation of your 1 year old S85 is reasonable and inline with what others have bought S85s for. Some have actually bought inventory cars that are essentially brand new for around that after factoring in the $7,500 rebate. A few S85s have actually sold for the 60s so you can't fault the insurance company on the valuation.
However I think you are absolutely right in the price gouging and insanely high and unreasonable fees charged by Tesla Authorized Repair shops. We hear it all the time on the forums. It's an outrageous racket where they charge 10s and thousands for moderate repairs that would have cost a fraction of that if the car was a another high end car.
Tesla really needs to get a handle on this or insurance rates will be absurdly high for these cars and any small fender bender will essentially total a Model S that is more than 3-4 years old.
If nothing else this is such an environmental waste to throw away a perfectly fine car because the Tesla Certified Shops have figured out that they can rape customers because they have nowhere else to go.�
Dec 13, 2014
Cebe This is consistent with my experience. I'm currently paying more for the 2009 Mini convertible than on the Model S...�
Dec 13, 2014
wycolo I'm with drsaab on this one. Just put on a new tire and drive home. Put out junkyard request for needed replacement panel(s) or else have aluminum shop weld back to original using sheet alum. You can do this out of pocket cash, no need to call in the mounties.
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Dec 13, 2014
HyperMiler Wait a second
Before jumping to conclusions on the oh so minor damage, is it known whether suspension, alignment, subframe, drivetrain are unaffected by this accident? A good axial whack ionto the side of the wheel can do some serious damage, including distorting the entire body substructure to the point where it cannot be bent back into its original configuration.�
Dec 14, 2014
wycolo I think you would find out on the drive home. :wink:
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Dec 14, 2014
nwdiver Thanks to the new F-150; Aluminum will soon be a MUCH MUCH less exotic material in cars... so hopefully (fingers crossed) the cost of repair will start to fall as the # of people able to work it increase...�
Dec 14, 2014
HankLloydRight Everyone keeps saying to take the $70k from the insurance offer (which does seem pretty reasonable) and go buy a used P85 replacement car. But the OP stated he also has a $70k loan on the car, and the bank likely has a lien on the car, so they'd be first in line to get the $70k to pay off the loan..so the OP would be left with $0 to go buy a replacement. It's not as easy as it sounds if he has to now go find another car, scrape together another down payment, and apply for, and get approved for, another loan. If he does take that route, getting an inventory car would be a good idea in order to take another $7500 (or more depending on state) tax credit.
Also, when talking about insurance companies--- my insurance company is Chubb, and I have an agreed value of $125k on my p85+.. costs me about $1500 per year with a $500 deductible.. (I'm 50 with a perfect driving record, no kids). So if the car is totaled, they write a check for $125k, no questions asked.�
Dec 15, 2014
Scotty I feel for you. Sure, you can buy another one, but your equity vanished when the accident occurred.
As the owner of a 12 week old S85 that currently hasabout 8800 miles on it, and was delivered with autopilot feature, an additional question comes up for me. Should I get in an accident with it, assuming the exact same type and extent of damage as the OP experienced, and assuming a very high repair estimate that influences my insurance company to issue a similar edict, what might the hit be on mine? Certainly,I would expect the total loss value for a 2014 autopilot-equipped 85S should be higher than the ~$70K value cited by the OP, but I'm not going to be satisfied at buying one of the non-autopilot equipped vehicles. Again, I'm raising the question and it currently is not my situation, but it sure makes one think.
I don't think Elon Musk wants to be standing up at a 2015 press conference or shareholders meeting stating that new car sales have plummeted, and Tesla stock is 'correcting' itself. I don't think Tesla is that concerned about this issue of the absurdly inflated repair estimates by their authorized body shops and costs associated with a MS involved in an accident. Probably they would recommend buying a loaner or place an order for a new one. Sure, it's remarkable at the number of MS that are listed on eBay right now, and in almost all listings, the owner id ordering a new 85D or P85D. Sure follows the Consumer Reports about 98% of owners would buy another. Sure, if you don't have to blink when writing the check, a total loss might not worry you. But, if the luster goes off the car, both by returning MS owners, media, naysayer analysts, ICE enthusiasts, and even Consumer Reports when next years customer / owner satisfaction survey results come out, and the owner satisfaction plummets, every news agency will report on it, probably with the words of 'falling from grace', 'too good to last' and 'market correction'.
I also wonder if this would or could be affected by Tesla doing the work, particularly at the factory. Since I live relatively close to the factory, would the factory SC have a different cost estimate? If so, I'm not advocating shipping the patient back to the mothership, but I might have to stop in and talk with them, butg wonder if I would get a conclusive answer. They might not want to be quoted, citing a hypothetical situation, but I still wonder. If Tesla SC comes back with an absurdly high estimate, there at the factory, that would be an eye opener.
Scotty�
Dec 15, 2014
sublimaze1 Two friends ... both to remain anonymous ... have had events occur (both in November, early Dec)
(1) Valet side swiped a truck bringing the car back to the restaurant. Certain damage to the right front quarter panel, wheel scuffs ... but the suspension (air) was damaged.
$38,000
(2) Man versus curb at a decent clip of speed, certainly not Marc Marquez or Kimi, but another where the wheel was bent and tire deflated, etc. But, again, suspension.
$32,000
(3) spouse versus re-bar sticking out of top of concrete wheel stop (y'all probably remember this one) ... ripped off the PLASTIC part of the front bumper. No aluminum damage. No electronics in the cone or suspension. Just the plastic
$2,580
Yes.
I concur.
Please review your auto insurance policy (on the phone with them if you have to) as this car is Ferrari / Lambo type of repair costs.�
Dec 15, 2014
lolachampcar Tesla authorizes repair facilities and, I would think, charges for this service.
Repair shops recoup their costs.
Closed loop feedback.
Tesla is fully aware of the costs to repair the car and has made a conscious decision to pull cars out of service instead of providing any information/documentation or support for "salvage" vehicles. It is going to take a lot more pain for Tesla to even consider moving on this position. The next discontinuity that may drive a change is cars coming off warranty where right to repair may force Tesla's hand on documentation and parts availability. I say might because Tesla can be very stubborn in a Silicon Valley tech company "my way or the highway" kinda way. Take heart though; even Ferrari was forced to document their product and provide support for third party repairs and they are one of the worst when it comes to being hard headed.�
Dec 15, 2014
JST I have my doubts that anything will be forced by a right to repair, at least in a legal sense. I don't think any such right exists outside MA, and there the obligations are phrased in the language of equal access to materials given to franchised dealers.
The national commitment made by manufacturers based on the MA law a) wasn't signed by Tesla, as far as I could tell, and b) has basically the same kind of obligations.�
Dec 15, 2014
lolachampcar I too do not think there will be a legal mechanism. However, once the car is out of warranty there will be people that either want to service the car themselves or have their local shop (that does not charge $150/hr) fix it.
Tesla can push the idea today that everything is in warranty so you do not need independent capability. That argument will go away in a bit thus bringing more sunlight on the issue.�
Dec 15, 2014
EarlyAdopter Right, but assuming the replacement car cost $70k, which people are pointing out many comparable used or loaner used-but-new cars that are $70k or less, he will be right back in the same situation as he was before the accident - having a car that's worth $70k and owing $70k on it.�
Dec 15, 2014
HankLloydRight Right,but that's not as easy as "take the $70k from insurance and buy a replacement" that people are constantly saying to do. He doesn't have $70k, he has $0k.
Also, it's likely he wouldn't get a 100% LTV used car loan with zero down payment, so he would have to cough up another down payment, which may or may not be possible or easy for him after taking the real depreciation hit (i.e. initial down payment plus 1 year of P+I+taxes on the totaled car).�
Dec 15, 2014
EdA Any comment on repair prices/experiences with aluminum Audi's?
Do other manufacturers make aluminum bodies?�
Dec 15, 2014
scottf200 F150
2015 Ford F-150: How Much More Will the Aluminum Truck Cost to Insure and Repair? – News – Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog�
Dec 15, 2014
Gizmotoy I have a Mitsubishi where the front half of the car and the roof are all aluminum. There the replacement of the aluminum components commands a 20% premium over their steel counterparts. The car has a lesser variant with steel components, so it's easy to make such comparisons. For example, the steel front left quarter panel on the base model is $460, while the aluminum version is $560, and the aluminum version has venting cutouts the steel version doesn't making it a slightly more complex part. There's a similar premium on the aluminum substructure components that lie beneath the skin.
And before we go into arguments of economies of scale, note that the aluminum variant of this vehicle ships fewer than 10k units per year worldwide, making its components rarer than the Model S components.
So I think aluminum is definitely more expensive, but that we're also in a unique position of having our body parts be particularly expensive, even given their aluminum construction. On top of that we have sky-high labor costs at the authorized repair centers. The combination of the two providing a perfect storm that results in a Model S being totaled if you even sneeze in its general direction.�
Dec 15, 2014
liuping The insurance will include sales tax on the $70k, so that is covered for the replacement. Some credit Unions will do 100% loans, or at least 95% (making the down payment $3500.) I would think most people driving a Model S can probably swing a $3500 down payment...�
Dec 15, 2014
stevej119 ...and as I mentioned before, if you replace with an inventory car you also get the $7500 federal tax credit plus whatever your state offers plus you're resetting your warranty at day 1 and zero miles (odometer reading when you take delivery plus 50,000) PLUS you're getting the updated features.�
Dec 15, 2014
Victory ^ this right here. Seriously�
Dec 15, 2014
green1 As long as Tesla is selling $100K cars, they aren't going to worry about $30K repair bills. But this won't fly in the market segment they want to compete in for Model 3. I suspect things will eventually have to change, the question is, when? and that's much harder to guess.�
Dec 15, 2014
RiverBrick Can you explain the + 50,000 part? I understand the rest.�
Dec 15, 2014
breser There's some people that believe the warranty on the inventory cars is 50,000 miles on top of whatever mileage the car already has.�
Dec 15, 2014
RiverBrick Well, that would be 80,000 km for me, as I have an inventory car, but it seems too good to be true.�
Dec 15, 2014
HankLloydRight That's what they told me when I bought my inventory car. I don't know what the "believe" part of that is, it's in writing.�
Dec 15, 2014
robby I agree but if the Model 3 is steel, it may be that the S and X continue to get stiffed with these sorts of repair bills while the 3 is more widely serviceable.�
Dec 15, 2014
stevej119 That's because "some people" were specifically told by more than one person at Tesla before and while taking delivery that where the "Tesla Service Loaner and Demonstration Vehicle Sales" document states "Warranty coverage spans 4 years / 50,000 miles (whichever comes first) beginning with the first owner", it means exactly that. 50,000 miles from the time the first owner takes possession of the car.�
Dec 15, 2014
RiverBrick OK, you're covered for the normal 50,000 miles of use, hence the "reset" of the mileage to zero. I was misreading as if the the 50,000 mile extended warranty was included (minus the deductible).�
Dec 15, 2014
breser I've seen people say that it's both ways. If you have something more definitive in writing then that settles that.�
Dec 15, 2014
HankLloydRight Even though I did not buy the extended warranty, yes, I was one of the fools that bought the 8 year "service" plan.�
Dec 15, 2014
Just a Reader Sure. Don't we all know that a S-Class comes with the Grim Reaper as a standard accessory? Do you have any figures at all to back up this claim? And please don't come up with injuries suffered by passengers of S-Classes that were built at some time in the 1980s.�
Dec 16, 2014
Adrian But that's what insurance companies does.�
Dec 16, 2014
swegman I can confirm that when my insurance came up for renewal, the cost went up significantly, even though I had no accidents or tickets. It was not the liability portion that went up, but the collision and comprehensive portion that increased. When I asked the insurance company why the rate increased, they told me their claim history for the car in my area (Washington, DC area, which includes DC, VA and MD) was much higher than they had anticipated, and that even though I was accident free/ticket free, the risk gets spread among all the owners.�
Dec 16, 2014
yobigd20 maybe we can get the media to start picking up on this. that'll escalate the problem. you'll want to read this: Testing Tesla Certification - FenderBender - March 2014
- his shop has seen four or five Tesla vehicles each week
- these are high-ticket jobs
- average ticket has been roughly $10,000 per Tesla vehicle (and Peotter says he has yet to have a �hard hit� on one yet)
- �I mean, you put a quarter panel on a Model S, and that�s going to be an $18,000 job, compared to, what, $5,000 for the average [domestic] vehicle?
That just proves these shops are making a killing with the insane prices. $10k for little dings and scratches. "lucrative investment" BS - it's lucrative because YOU ARE PRICE GOUGING OWNERS.�
Dec 16, 2014
Luclyluciano Sure, casualty/safety ratings affect premiums but so do claims history for theft, sportiness of the vehicle, and cost to repair.�
Dec 16, 2014
themacs I bought an inventory car last month. I have it in writing that the warrantee is 50,000 miles AND 4 years from the day I took delivery. My car had about 7,200 miles so the warrantee is 57,200 miles and 11/7/2018.�
Dec 16, 2014
zwede This is correct. Same deal on my inventory car bought in January '14.�
Dec 16, 2014
wycolo Just renewing with State Farm: Over past 12 months increases are:
1. $2000 Deductible Collision = up 9.8%
2. $2000 Deductible Comprehensive = up 5.5%
FWIW.
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