Chủ Nhật, 1 tháng 1, 2017

Model X vs Volvo XC90 part 2

  • Oct 4, 2015
    engle
    Parallel XC 90 T8 vs. X Thread Started in "Swedespeed.com" :)

    great write-up, AdamSM!

    I was bored late last night so I joined and posted my quick comparison in the Volvo forum to give the people who have been obsessed waiting for the XC 90 a chance to chime in from their perspective:

    http://forums.swedespeed.com/showthread.php?238403-XC-90-T8-vs-Tesla-Model-X-CUV-SUV

    So far, there are 42 responses. One wrote "best first post". Another, @goVolvo, said they thought I was "maybe a volunteer marketing person for Tesla". :biggrin: @P50GT, who claimed to have worked for TSLA, wrote: "They do not work for Tesla.", and made the ridiculous claim: "I am familiar with this person from my time at Tesla. They were a thorn in the Tesla's team's side as well." I really got a laugh out of that one!! Maybe canceling a $5K Model S reservation and reserving the X counts as "being a thorn"?? Posting 2D/3D walkaround videos of the Model X Prototype on Youtube must have really upset the "team", too, not to mention the 25+ videos from the Launch Event.

    Anyway, I did learn that Volvo has plans to build a US assembly plant, so they get points for that.
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  • Oct 4, 2015
    MorrisonHiker
    I used to be on SwedeSpeed all the time but quit cold turkey when the 70D was announced last April. I just checked out your thread and a few others and it's interesting how there is a former Tesla employee on there who owns a Volvo. He's posted several message over the past months about the X and I think some of them contain information that I don't think was available here yet. Interesting how I might be able to learn more about the X on a Volvo forum than I can on the Tesla forums!
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  • Oct 5, 2015
    sg021
    Just out of curiosity, has anyone here or on the Volvo site expressed concerns over the T8 engine reliability? It's pushing a lot of power out of a small displacement, and twin charging is obviously more complex to do than turbo or supercharging alone. Are there even any vehicles currently on the road that do this?
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  • Oct 5, 2015
    ankitmishra
    Wow!! Thanks. I really enjoyed reading that thread. @P50GT is a cool guy. He really worked hard to defend X there and I found his points logical.
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  • Oct 5, 2015
    X-Wing
    It is definitely a concern, but no worse than an out of warranty Tesla.

    First, addressing the displacement issue. Mistubishi Evo and Subaru STi (JDM spec) have been pushing 300hp out of a 2L for nearly a decade. GM, Hyundai and VW also have high output 2.0L engines making 275+ horsepower. Mercedes makes a 2.0L that is now pushing 375hp (up from 355hp) in the AMG 45 line.

    As to the supercharger (not the Tesla kinda) and turbo combination. The concept is very similar to sequential turbocharging that can be found in the Toyota Supra and Porsche 959. More recently BMW M550d xDrive uses a tri-turbo setup with 2 small turbos and 1 large turbo.

    What volvo did was to simply replace the small faster spooling turbo in the sequential setup with a supercharger. It's not that complicated, nor is it pushing the limit of current 2.0L displacement engines.
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  • Oct 5, 2015
    mnx
    I followed the XC90 really closely before it was unveiled. Then I saw the pitiful 10 cubic feet of cargo room behind the third row. It definitely won't work for our family of 7. Although I'm not sure the Model X is big enough either. (When is Tesla going to actually release the specs???) I think there is a bit more than 10 cu ft at the back especially since there is area that drops down. Our Sienna has 40cu ft behind the third row, the only thing that comes close to that in SUV land is a extended Yukon/Suburban/Escallade.

    Our Model S with the third row does just fine for trips around town etc. For our 2nd family vehicle I think I'll probably have to stick with minivans, or if we end up going on a lot of trips etc. a diesel Sprinter might end up being the vehicle of choice.
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  • Oct 5, 2015
    CarlK
    Did you forget the frunk?
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  • Oct 5, 2015
    mnx
    No, that's one reason why I'm still considering Model X.

    It is helpful to have a larger single storage area however, (ie. for a double stroller)
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  • Oct 5, 2015
    BoldSharpe
    This is what ultimately led us to place an order for a 2016 XC90 T6, which should be here in two to three weeks. The new XC90's technology features, while it doesn't have Tesla's all electric drivetrain, are just as good and arguably better in some instances. There were far too many compromises made in the T8 (and a LOT of extra complexity) to justify the significant price premium so I ruled out that option very quickly.

    We still have an X on order and plan on reevaluating once they hit showrooms but, as I currently see it, spending an extra 60% for the Model X will be very difficult to justify.
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  • Oct 5, 2015
    matbl
    The new XC90 have the capability to download new SW OTA. If Volvo ever does that? Noone knows...

    - - - Updated - - -


    If I'm not mistaken, the new XC90 is so far the only vehicle to get the new engine family from Volvo. The old ones sometimes have engines "inherited" from some Ford models (since Ford owned Volvo for a long time). Or some other older type engines.
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  • Oct 5, 2015
    JohnSnowNW
    It would come down to caring more about efficiency, performance, emissions, and safety (though the Volvo is going to be close enough). For us, the XC90 isn't efficient enough, full stop. Any other positives are rendered moot by that single point.

    I'm sure the Volvo will make a fine car for many, however.
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  • Oct 5, 2015
    X-Wing
    XC90 Up & Close

    So, I went to check out the XC90 and frankly was a bit let down by it. Don't get me wrong overall it is a good SUV, however...


    • The supposedly gorgeous leather wrapped keys doesn't seem to hold up well for daily wear and tear. There were already some cuts on the key they gave me.

    • The interior is comparable to Tesla, but the napa leather wasn't as soft or premium feel as I had expected.

    • The T6 non-hybrid driving experience was okay, pretty smooth for ICE. Decent power, but nothing insane or ludicrous.

    • The brake was shocking soft and was not confidence inspiring at all. Maybe just me not being used to the feel and modulation.

    • The advanced driving assistant functions do work but does not seem to integrate well with the Head Up Display

    • In the HUD, there is no BLIS information, no lane keeping assist status (as in whether the car detects/sees the lane marking lines)

    • The distance setting in the adaptive cruise is not constantly display in the HUD, a vital piece of information in my opinion.

    • The B&W sound system is crystal clear, but lacks a bit in the low end

    The Model X is still the top choice for me. Having said that, I am still disappointed at Telsa, but in a my kid brought home the gold medal but crazy parent is angry at her for not break the world record kinda way.
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  • Oct 5, 2015
    mspisars
    Made me laugh out loud in the office!
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  • Oct 5, 2015
    TexasEV
  • Oct 5, 2015
    lodenthal
    @texasev, l couldn't agree more. An ad for an ICE! What has happened here?
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  • Oct 5, 2015
    AudubonB
    To Swedish Advocate, Yggdrasil, and anyone else interested in Large Animal Collisions:

    From my own experience :eek: and that of many others in Moose Country, I have exactly ZERO confidence that there will be any statistical difference* between the effect of a moose collision with a vehicle that has the Model X windshield versus one with any other windshield. That just not the way things work, for better or worse.

    *Other than in the pocketbook. My, replacing that windshield is gonna hurt! But that's not the issue at hand.
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  • Oct 5, 2015
    Darren Donovan
    I didn't know about the underlined above.
    That, by itself, immediately crossed it off my list.
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  • Oct 5, 2015
    Watts Son
  • Oct 6, 2015
    SwedishAdvocate
    Yeah. I'm kind of surprised Volvo as a brand for cars isn't long dead in the US...
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  • Oct 6, 2015
    engle
  • Oct 7, 2015
    matbl

    Yes it's true. sometimes the center screen needs a reboot...

    Every car brand will always have a few cars do weird things. The more cars you produce, the more cars will behave weird problems or have a manufacturing fault.
    It doesn't matter if it's Tesla, BMW, Volvo, GM, Ford or whatever. But the better quality control you have (incl for software), the smaller the number in percent of produced cars will get.
    From reading here and other "brand boards" as well as my own experience both with Tesla and other brans, Tesla is actually somewhat lacking when it comes to quality control.
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  • Oct 31, 2015
    Drucifer
    Pasting my first post on the Volvo Forum. It seemed like a reasonable thing to cross post here.

    I currently drive a Tesla Model S. My wife is driving an aging Saab 9-5 wagon. We are square in the zone of consideration for these two vehicles, in the next 12-14 months (hopefully by the end of 2016)

    Budget is about $85k +/-

    Volvo XC90 T8 appears like it would be inscription trim (top of the line) with air suspension, B&W stereo, HUD and most of the options one might get.

    Tesla Model X appears like it will be a base X70D version, with a few carefully chosen options (metallic paint, autopilot, leather seats....oops, out of money).

    My wife is leaning Volvo, I am leaning Tesla, but neither of us is leaning too hard at this point.

    The buildout of the Tesla supercharger network over the next 9 months leading up to the decision will certainly be a factor. If we can't go where we want with Model X, that will kill it as my car is also a Tesla and we don't want to have to run to Hertz every time we take a trip to the mountains.

    Thanks for having me here. I look forward to reading up on this forum.
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  • Oct 31, 2015
    kf93
    I've been going back and forth for a while between the two vehicles also. The T8 is kind of an odd target. The T6 seems to be a much better road trip vehicle, bigger gas tank, the fact that it carries a spare, etc. The T8 gets worse mileage on the highway because of the weight of the battery as well as less range from the smaller tank. For around town when you can maximize the battery usage the T8 seems to be a good option. I miss my 9-5 wagon, it served us well for over 10 years before it got replaced with one of the last of the BMW 5 series wagons.
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  • Nov 1, 2015
    Drucifer
    My Model S is the road trip vehicle of choice to Asheville, Atlanta, Florida, Charleston/Wilmington/beach locations, Washington D.C. and points northeast. My wife's car will be the road trip vehicle for trips to the mountains (NC, WV) and skiing particularly (if Volvo), but if it is a Model X, it may be for all road trips (except my business trips). But, to do that, we need a supercharger in Hickory, NC, Wytheville, VA and destination charging at Snoeshoe, WV. I pretty much comes down to superchargers.
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  • Nov 2, 2015
    rogbmw
    I fully understand your concern with the supercharger network and the X. We had an X on reservation since the night of the reveal, and just cancelled ours in the past 2 weeks. We have driven our S since February of 2013 and love it. Our XC90 T8 is scheduled for delivery in December. We ordered our XC90 in June, and had both it and the X on order at the same time. For us, the supercharger network just did not work, as we take regular trips into the central states, and there are some big holes there. Had we lived in areas where there were lots of superchargers, the choice would have been the X all the way. For people living in areas of greater supercharger concentrations, I am sure this is not a consideration and may be hard to understand. I have charged the S at RV parks and other areas which are not convenient, and simply did not want to put the wife through that when she had to make trips without me, and we too did not want to have to rent a vehicle for trips without supercharger support.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    Vitold
    Since you mention skiing, are you aware that in AWD mode XC90 T8 will have to engage both motors (electric motor powers rear axle and ICE front axle)? Makes me wonder how well this hybrid AWD works in practice, so far reviews I've seen reported uneven transition from electric to ICE.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    1208
    Can't wait to compare the Euroncap ratings between the 2.
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  • Nov 3, 2015
    tander
    I was interested in the new hybrid xc90 until I saw the price, and for that price you might as well get a tesla.
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    tonyinc
    Not really, with every option except premium sound, the XC90 comes in at around $80k, it's about 60% more than that for the X fully loaded.


    • SRP$ 79,200
    • Destination Fee$ 995
    • Total MSRP (including destination fee)$ 80,195
    ?

    REQUEST A QUOTE
    PAYMENT ESTIMATOR



    PRINT/PDF






    Exterior


    • 20 x 9.0 - 10-Spoke Tinted Silver Diamond Cut Alloy Wheels

    Interior


    • Heated Steering Wheel
    • Linear Walnut Wood Inlays

    Powertrains


    • T8 Twin Engine Plug-in Hybrid
    $ 68,100?

    Trims


    • Inscription
    $ 3,500?

    Packages


    • Climate Package
    • Convenience Package
    • Vision Package
    $ 4,650?

    Options


    • 4-corner Air Suspension (Requires Convenience Pkg $1800)
    • Integrated, Center Booster Cushion, 2nd row
    • Graphical Head-up Display (HUD)
    $ 2,95?
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    sg021
    I am actually going to test drive an xc90 t6 soon. Pricing is all relative. Sure the T8 is cheaper than an MX90 by a good margin, but it's also 15-20k more than a normal T6 power train. For what the T8 is and the driving that I do, I just don't see enough added value to make the jump to the T8.
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  • Nov 4, 2015
    JohnSnowNW
    I get closer to $90k, when adding their styling package...and without HUD (since Tesla doesn't offer it).

    rHUi3u3.png
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  • Nov 6, 2015
    brandeeno
    How did you figure 10 cubic feet.? The Audi Q7 is 10. US news has the XC90 as 15.4, quoted below with link. 15.4 is on par if not better than most other 3 row SUV's in this same size grouping (toyota highlander, honda pilot, CX9, acura MDX, audi Q7, etc...)

    "The 2016 Volvo XC90 has 85.7 cubic feet of cargo space behind the first row, 41.8 cubic feet behind the second row and 15.4 cubic feet behind the third row." http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Volvo_XC90/Interior/
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  • Nov 6, 2015
    Rockster
    I note this on the Volvo European delivery site:

    Overseas Delivery XC90 T8 and other models sold out for Model Year 2016
    October 7, 2015 - All Model Year 2016 XC90 T8 Plug-in Hybrid models allocated to the Overseas Delivery program have been sold out. The XC90 T6 is still available. If you would like to order an XC90 T8 via Overseas Delivery you will have to wait until details are released for the 2017 Volvo XC90 next spring. Deliveries should begin at the factory in the summer of 2016.
    These Volvo models are also sold out for the 2016 Model Year via Overseas Delivery: S60 T6 AWD R-Design, V60 T6 AWD R-Design, XC60 T6 AWD and XC60 T6 AWD R-Design. The 2016 S60 T5, V60 T5, and XC60 T5 models are still available.

    Link
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  • Nov 6, 2015
    tander
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  • Nov 6, 2015
    electracity
    The T6 version is a much more attractive deal. These "add a battery to an ICE car" setups are really pricey for what you get. If purchasing, I expect the resale will be terrible.

    I do think the XC90 is great and the minimalist interior is well done. As a full EV I would prefer it to the MX.
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  • Nov 6, 2015
    peteyswift
    Can someone who owns or has driven the T6 comment on the power and acceleration, maybe compared to an X5 35?
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  • Nov 6, 2015
    tander
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  • Nov 7, 2015
    Zybane
    I've been thinking about a XC90 T8 versus a Tesla but decided against it. The XC90 has a great look (better than Model-X IMO), really nice interior but it's still an ICE. Tiny 87 HP electric motor that maxes out at 50MPH and takes forever getting you there with 16 mile range isn't really comparable to a Tesla. IMO if you go electric, go all the way.
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  • Nov 8, 2015
    rogbmw
    When considering price, don't forget that the XC90 T8 has a Federal Tax Credit of just under $5000.
    The Model X is $7500.

    Individual states may also have incentives...but unfortunately none here in Florida.
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  • Nov 8, 2015
    TexasEV
    This shows how misguided the tax credit law is. It only takes a few electrons to qualify for the base credit, and it rapidly increases to maxing out at the size of the original Volt battery. GM lobbying was responsible for that of course, so a real EV with a larger battery wouldn't be eligible for a larger credit than the Volt.
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  • Nov 8, 2015
    Drucifer
    Well, my wife said she wanted to wait an additional year, so instead of 2016, we will be replacing her car in the 2nd half of 2017. That will likely make Model X an easier choice as the superchargers should be everywhere we want to go by then.
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  • Nov 9, 2015
    rogbmw
    The charging holes for the next few years in the map is why we are going to wait on an X for now too. But our Pilot is now 12 years old so we are going to replace it, then re-evaluate the X in a couple of years.
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  • Nov 9, 2015
    Drucifer
    My wife's Saab 9-5 Wagon is a 2004 model, about the same vintage, but has only about 110k miles on it and is in pretty good shape. I will probably get the car a deep detailing to make the wait less painful.
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  • Nov 9, 2015
    DougH
  • Nov 9, 2015
    Zybane
    Every Volvo dealer I've spoke to said they wouldn't do A plan pricing on the T8.
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  • Nov 13, 2015
    3mp_kwh
    This also gets into the �EREV� debate, where full electric performance is more the goal. Along the same lines as this A3 e-tron test drive experience, I wonder what reports would be like if Audi�s Q7 PHEV ever shows up (2.0ltr gas + electric)? It has about the same battery size as the Volt. Relative to the OP�s XC90, that�s almost twice the storage. So, it should do well in comparison, but not necessarily because of the extra weight and appetite VWG�s electric drive trains have on batteries (tending toward low AER/KWH).

    If I had to come up with one, just one, thing VWG could do to demonstrate turning a new leaf, it would be to release the Q7 PHEV. It may have happened to little fanfare, but I don�t think they had anything closer in the pipeline that could have been accelerated. This car, and perhaps GM�s CT6 PHEV, could be getting a delay on cheap gas..
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  • Nov 13, 2015
    gjunky
    I asked VW if they are going to release the eGolf in the US for the same reason. I think it would be good PR for them right now. The answer was "no plans at this time"
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  • Nov 13, 2015
    Drucifer
    Well for now. That tune will change over time. Give it a year or two.
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  • Nov 13, 2015
    mcmcmc
    Just to say thanks to the OP of this thread and others pitching in with facts - was seriously considering XC90 T8 (fantastic car, looks great, super comfortable, full of tech... test drove the top spec Diesel) but coming from a 4WD TDI SUV with a 100 litre tank (ca 26 US gallons), the XC90 with duo 2WD (electric back, petrol front) and a 50 litre petrol tank (HALF, "to make space for the battery") just doesn't cut it for me. So I too put a deposit down to join the X queue.
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  • Nov 14, 2015
    Zybane
    Ya, the XC90 is a great looking vehicle. If the X would have had the space and looked like the XC90, I probably would have went into the X queue instead of having a S on order.
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  • Nov 14, 2015
    sg021
    I recently cancelled my MX reservation and have looked into the XC90. It is free to sign up for A plan pricing, but the XC90 is not eligible at this time. Volvo seems a little stingy with what models are included.

    Cancellation want really anything specific, it's just my commute is a lot shorter than it used to be, and the supercharger build out in my area is a little slow. I really hope we will eventually be Tesla owners.
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  • Nov 14, 2015
    Refie
    I went the order way around, cancelled XC90 (due to taxes, and no delivery in 2015) Now inline for MX
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  • Nov 16, 2015
    tenstringer009
    Just finished watching the MotorTrend live stream of the 2016 'of the Year' awards (don't get me started on how bad Adam Carolla was as the host), and the XC90 took the golden calipers home for the SUV category (Colorado for the Truck and Camaro for the Car in case anyone was wondering).

    Nice write-up on the XC90...I'm sure once journalists get their hands on the X, they'll be formal comparison tests between the two (this award was based primarily on the T6 variation rather than the T8 plug-in hybrid). It also seems like Volvo came close to Tesla's interface with the new Sensus system.

    2016 Volvo XC90 is the 2016 Motor Trend SUV of the Year
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  • Nov 16, 2015
    kf93
    I think it's well deserving of the award. The X will be in competition for next year. The T6 is a great vehicle for an ICE SUV.
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  • Nov 16, 2015
    Vitold
    Here's what MT said about XC90:

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  • Nov 17, 2015
    peteyswift
    Just got a T6 over the weekend. Couldn't justify paying double for a Model X and already have a Model S. In 3 years when the lease is done, maybe things will be different.

    The XC90 replaces the minivan, so it is a huge improvement there. Without getting into a full review, I got the ICE T6 instead of the T8 for the reasons already stated above as to how the electrical power is being apportioned, extra weight, price, etc. The styling inside and out, I find, is ultra sophisticated and modern. Interior space is pretty huge, which you can't tell from the outside. I have the coil suspension and think it does just fine in suburban roads with great comfort and handling. Because of the small 4-cylinder engine (super and turbo-charged), this is a light SUV and find the lack of huge weight transfer on cornering to be refreshing compared even to my Model S. Of course, performance of the T6 is good compared to even V6s, but cannot be in any conversation with a Tesla. The Sensus system is a nice second best to Tesla's.

    Overall, I'm happy: we have a stylish, capable, family hauler; the wife and kids are cocooned. I stopped short of going full-on green again, but hey, I gained about 3 mpg compared to the minivan [emoji12].
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  • Nov 17, 2015
    Blastphemy
    One thing my wife pointed out to me: if you're in California, the XC90 T8 might not be eligible for green carpool lane stickers (if any are even left), whereas the Model X will be eligible for the white carpool lane stickers (which will still be available). One more small bit of data to consider...
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  • Nov 18, 2015
    rogbmw
    The XC90 just was awarded Motor Trend SUV of the year. The X was not considered this year, but hopefully for next year it will be in the running and give Tesla another MT award! As stated previously, we cancelled our X reservation due to the current and projected lack of superchargers in certain areas in the middle of the US, and our XC90 T8 is scheduled for delivery in December. But, as the supercharger network is built out over the next few years, we will again look at an X.
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  • Nov 18, 2015
    brandeeno
    I canceled my X reservation last week. I have come to terms that spending ~100k is just too crazy for a middle class person like my self. I'll be getting the XC90 most likely. I'll be putting down 2k for the overseas delivery program, and will get the car in about 6 months. For those of you who don't know... you can get most Volvo's at a discount, get two free round trip tickets, 1 night free hotel stay, a few weeks of international insurance, pickup the car in Sweden and free delivery back home. It is a fantastic offer and I will have plenty of money leftover for all the hotel stays during the euroean roadtrip.
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  • Nov 19, 2015
    Zybane
    The XC90 is a nice vehicle. But once you drive electric, it's almost impossible to go back. Every time I drive my gas powered vehicles it's so apparent how archaic using fossil fuel exploding mechanical pistons up and down and shifting up and down gears is..
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    aija SigX 649
    +1 ..completely agree. The gasoline engine will go the way of the steam engine, that went the way of the horse and buggy ..a lot quicker than most folks think today. It's already outstayed it's welcome IMHO - thanks to some very powerful special interests that care very little about the bigger picture. I'd like to think that we've hit an inflection point with those that know better now!
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    brandeeno
    I imagine our car after this purchase will be electric... about 7 years out, to replace our 2012 CRV
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    JohnSnowNW
    Just to be clear, ~$100k is too much, but ~$80k you're comfortable with? Serious question actually, as we're in the same boat in our decision going forward on the X. We feel that there isn't THAT great a difference in price, and the benefits outweigh the added cost. Personal choice, I know.
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    TexasEV
    Don't forget the $20,000 difference is made much smaller by not buying gas. Home charging costs about 1/3 of gas for similar mileage, and long distance travel will be free with superchargers.
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    brandeeno
    I am not getting the Hybrid T8. I would be getting the base Momentum model T6, with add ons I am looking at somewhere around 56k. So that is actually 44k difference. I don't expect that to ever be made up in gas. I am all ears if you could convince me otherwise! It wasn't easy canceling my reservation, but it was simply me coming back to earth (and nagging from wife).
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    JohnSnowNW
    Gotcha, that makes more sense.

    Honestly, if there was a cheaper option to the Model X (without auto-pilot, and some of the luxury accessories) and still had similar functionality (access to 3rd row with car seats, 200+ mile range, Supercharger-esque network) and similar safety numbers we would probably cancel our X reservation too. $100k is a great deal of money, and while we want to support Tesla...we're having to make some sacrifices to do so.
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    Drucifer
    After going in a circle from keeping our paid off Saab Wagon a while longer, to getting a used Mercedes R Class diesel (4-6 years old) to bridge the gap, to getting Model X after the queue clears, to getting an XC-90 T8 sooner, when it comes out, we are back full circle.

    Keeping the Saab Wagon for 2-3 more years until we can get the X, with Gen 2 autopilot hardware - probably in late 2017 or 2018.

    Here is to hoping our 11 year old wagon holds up well for a bit longer.
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    vandacca
    That's a very personal decision and mostly depends on how long you would be happy owning your next vehicle. For example, if you were satisfied owning your vehicle for 20 years, and you calculate the savings in gas, maintenance and time, the total cost of ownership may be less with the Model-X. The Model-X has a high up-front cost, but once owned, is very economical to run and maintain.

    Alternatively, if you typically own cars for 5 years before a refresh, then there is no way a Model-X will be cost effective, although it may still have pretty good resale value.

    Another factor that is difficult to calculate and rarely gets thought about is the cost of pollution.
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    brandeeno
    I plan to own my car's 10'ish years. Have not done so yet, as I am not that old and was living in new york city for 8 years. My CRV is 3 years old. While the idea to keep the model X for 20 years sounds great, I am not sure how likely this would be for me... I understand Tesla is at the forefront of upgrading cars, software, process, even hardware... but I image a whole slew new tech and needs in the 10 years. Sure its possible as I dont have to have the latest and greatest all the time, but I can't guess what new tech we will have in 10 years. I would also need to factor in a new battery pack after maybe every 8 years?... right now the new roadster battery pack upgrade costs 29k.
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    Drucifer
    The battery loses less than 1% a year. In 16 years your Model X 90D will be a Model X "77D" or your Model X 70D will be a Model X "60D". By then there will be Superchargers every 50 miles on most major routes and you can just keep going OR batteries will be less than half the cost of what they are today OR you get a new one.
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    vandacca
    Battery pack upgrade is definitely going to be the biggest maintenance cost for an EV. There are a lot of unknowns, but battery prices are expected to continue to fall and capacity is expected to increase. Battery pack upgrades will also be a personal thing. In 15 years, you would likely still have 80% capacity and that may be fine for some (it's rare for a battery pack to completely fail, but it is more likely to slowly degrade over time). And if you do decide to upgrade in 10-20 years, you'll likely be upgrading from a 250 mile range to a 300+ mile range. This is unchartered territory, but I believe that battery technology will only get better and cheaper, which is a good thing since it should be a trivial upgrade on a Tesla.
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    brandeeno
    The comments to the battery percentage degradation don't line up to what I recall reading 6-12 months ago. Does anybody have any links regarding this? Tesla/Elon quotes of course (not other batteries).
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    MrBoylan
    I believe the longevity of the battery packs depends more on mileage driven than on time. The study of Model S battery capacity done in the Netherlands showed that the Model S battery lost about 6% capacity after 50,000 miles (on average) but the range loss slows to about 1% per 30,000 miles thereafter. The US average mileage driven per driver is about 11,244 miles per year (though some drive much more, and city-dwellers like me actually drive much less).

    So based on this rate and the assumption of 11,244 miles driven per year and similar performance of the Model X batteries to the Model S batteries, after 10 years of "average" use, the Model X 90D should still have about 234 miles of range (EPA) or 91% of capacity. After 20 years, it should have about 225 miles of range (88%). I'm OK with that.

    I'd imagine with the gigafactory in operation and advances in battery technology, I'd probably be able to trade in the battery in 15 years at a relatively affordable cost for a new pack with potentially even greater range than the original pack. And at that point my pack could be recycled into a few PowerWalls. But even if I don't keep mine that long, the resale value of a Model X after 15 years with around 90% of its original range should be pretty good.

    Netherlands battery study: Tesla Model S battery degradation data | Steinbuch
    Average vehicle driving data: Alternative Fuels Data Center: Maps and Data
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    peteyswift
    +1 here. I got the XC90 T6 Momentum Plus with some, but not all, goodies. Total was $57,600. It is a 3 year lease and at least gets better gas mileage and is safer than the old minivan. I also think it will take about 3 years to make buying a second Tesla a no-brainer whereas now I'd still have to consider reliability, Supercharger access, communication issues, and other things in purchasing a Model X.

    I don't believe an $80k T8 hybrid would be worth it over the Model X factoring in gas and tax savings along with production pricing probably being less.

    I hear what everyone is saying about not being able to go back to ICE, but is Tesla giving these things away? Do you also have a Model S (maybe more than one) and solar panels? As already stated above, it's not so simple for 99.9% of people to have $100k cars x 2. Sorry, just a reality check [emoji6].
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    Drucifer
    Yes - this. I paid off the solar panels and then got the S. I need to get the S paid down at least most of the way before getting X. I can only swallow paying for one Tesla at a time. Throw two Toyotas or Buicks at me, no problem.
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    peteyswift
    Lol!!!
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    Drucifer
    OK, don't literally throw two Buicks at me...I meant the payment books. ;)
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    Tgibson
    We are considering the T8 but will likely end up with the Model X. My take on T8 vs. T6 is the opposite of yours. The T8 costs $18,300. However, the Inscription package is $2,100 lower on the T8, federal tax credit $4,585, CO state credit of $6,000, gas savings, plus higher residual value upon sale all lead me to the T8. Perhaps the difference in our thinking is the state credit of $6,000. Or I am looking at it wrong. Help me if I am missing something.
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  • Nov 21, 2015
    Anzir
    Former Sig X reservation holder, just received my $40k refund last week. Just purchased a T6 XC90 Inscription for $800 over invoice, totaling $61k before tax/tag. For us, the X wasn't worth the >$70k price delta, especially considering my wife did not like the X styling in the front.
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  • Nov 21, 2015
    peteyswift
    This is ICE, but I think it's nice.
    9dffe594896491601fd86f6e66f28803.jpg
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  • Nov 23, 2015
    sg021
    If I had a 6k tax credit I would seriously consider the T8. That is a big chunk of the price difference right there. It's hard for me to gauge the gas savings from the T6 though. The T8 isn't going to be in EV mode ever, at least the way I drive. I'll be curious to see what the real world numbers come in at once people start getting there's.
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  • Nov 23, 2015
    Vitold
    One thing to keep in mind is that T8 is not a real AWD and I bet it handles worse in slippery conditions than T6, not to mention Model X.
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  • Nov 23, 2015
    sg021
    Given the sheer power of even a non performance Tesla at each axle and the car's significant weight I am sure its awd is better than any xc90. However, I live on a fairly steep hill. I have yet to see any awd vehicle not make it up. Minivans and rwd are the only things I've seen get stuck in the snow, so even if the xc90 t6 or t8 is not the best I'm confident it will do the job for me.

    Some awd systems like Lexus can't divert a huge amount of power to the rear, but I've never seen one have trouble where I live.
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    mcmcmc
    This is actually one of the reasons why I was put off by the T8. Think it's a brilliant car (technology wise, it even has some advantages over the X!) but going from 4WD to 2x2WD is just a no (if the electricity motor is empty you'll be stuck with 2WD). Plus the range is highly questionable (tiny fuel tank). Yes, it's a little cheaper but sticking with my X reservation for those main reasons!
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    sg021
    Not that I'm trying to be Mr. XC90, but it's not like after a little bit of driving you lose AWD. The engine can maintain available power for the rear. Lexus has even started doing this with their mild hybrids.
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    rogbmw
    If you itemize deductions, and end up with payable taxes of over $4585 in the Volvo's instance, or $7500 in the Tesla's instance, then that comes right off the taxes that you owe. It is not a deduction, but rather a credit applied to the total taxes you owe. At least that is how it worked on our Model S. So, for example if you paid $10,000 in taxes for the year, purchase the Tesla, then you get to deduct the $7500 from the $10,000, and only owe $2500. Same applies for the Volvo T8 - you paid $10,000 in taxes for the year, purchase the Volvo, then you get to deduct the $4585 from the $10,000 you owe, and then only owe $5415.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The X has a front electric motor, and a rear electric motor, and the two are not connected via a drive shaft. The XC90 T8 has a front gas/electric motor and a rear electric motor, and the two are not connected via a drive shaft. Similar design layouts, except the XC90 has more "stuff", and the Tesla is more "simple" with less "stuff".

    Here is the government link to credits: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxphevb.shtml

    Regarding the XC90 T8, one of the members on the Volvo forums from the Netherlands who has already taken delivery of his T8 last month is averaging over 42.5 mpg in the Save mode when not driving on pure battery power and using gasoline.
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    Drucifer
    My understanding is if you run the battery all the way down in Model X, you also lose 4WD - but you don' t get to keep 2WD.
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    Blastphemy
    I'd probably cancel our Model X reservation today and order an XC90 T8 if not for the fact that I'd be getting gas every two weeks (which we don't get at all now because we drive a Toyota Rav4 EV). With a 60-mile round trip commute, only 15-20 miles of EV range, and the XC90 only getting 22 mpg on a 13 gallon tank, there's no way that vehicle works for us despite how nice it looks and all the desirous features it comes with.
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    sg021
    For a long time I had a 70 mike round trip commute, but worked at home a couple days a week. Personally I thought that was the edge of the sweet spot for a Tesla. I changed to an every day 94 mile commute, which was for me a Tesla required kind of commute. No good places to stop for gas until I was close to home, I was experiencing take anxiety since I couldn't make it through a full work week on a tank.

    Whether or not I would choose T8 vs T6 will probably come down to real world numbers in the US. It's hard to make a good conversion of those crazy euro numbers.
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    peteyswift
    Saw someone post in an XC90 forum his first 600 miles mpg was 40.5mpg for his T8.
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    Vitold
    UK gallons?
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    peteyswift
    My bad, he's in the Netherlands. Carry on [emoji4].
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  • Nov 25, 2015
    hill
    U.S. built versus China built?
    .
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  • Nov 25, 2015
    rogbmw
    US built vs Sweedish built.
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  • Nov 25, 2015
    mcmcmc
    If you run down the battery, wouldn't you be able to drive at all then? :)
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  • Nov 25, 2015
    hill
  • Nov 25, 2015
    Drucifer
    Volvo XC90 is made in Sweden by a Chinese owned company. Volvo was previously owned by Ford Motor Company of the USA.

    Volvo will make future vehicles in China and in the USA in South Carolina, in addition to Sweden, having manufacturing on 3 continents.

    Tesla will likely make future vehicles in China and The Netherlands in addition to in the USA in California, having manufacturing on 3 continents.
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  • Nov 25, 2015
    peteyswift
    I will tell you one thing we should all be grateful for - software download so far is way smoother with Tesla (not a surprise). There was a major update to the XC's Sensus, bug fixes and Apple CarPlay, to be released this Monday. You have to go to the dealer to get it downloaded. Some dealers didn't even know about it, or what to do with it, and the few that downloaded to cars led to new bugs. Volvo ultimately told dealers to halt the downloads until further notice. Evidently, direct to owner downloads is coming in the future, but a lot of things seemingly need to be worked out before then...
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  • Nov 25, 2015
    sg021
    Supposedly OTA updates are part of this release. Volvo seems to be more than willing to imitate some of the innovations Tesla pioneered, more than I can say of other makers. OTA software and a big center touchscreen are just such superior choices when compared to dealer visits and crummy joysticks and knobs operating tiny screens.

    I think every maker will go through growing pains while transitioning to a more software centric user experience. Volvo is definitely having problems with the xc90, but should get things in order 'soon'
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  • Nov 25, 2015
    peteyswift
    You're right, @sg021!
    4c08fd88eb3d7c14a4634ca844c87107.jpg
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