Jul 19, 2012
Yggdrasill What the car companies much more often do here is reduce the horsepower on the motors.
So, they sell the identical car with slightly different software with fewer horsepower. This reduces the taxes enough to get the price low enough to be not completely unaffordable.�
Jul 20, 2012
Robert.Boston Audi A7 base price in the US is $59,250. Of course, that's before dealer prep charges, delivery, taxes, title, etc.�
Jul 20, 2012
Larry Chanin Hi Alex,
Welcome to the forum.
This is the price of a game changing catalyst.
Somebody has to be first to move away from fossil fuels to demonstrate to others why electric vehicles, in the bigger scheme of things, are a much better alternative. I�m gratified that I�m in that stage of my life where I have the financial resources to do this, while having fun in the process.
I believe that the introduction of the Model S is a historic turning point for electric vehicles and it is exactly the same as when Henry Ford introduced the game changing Model T. In 1908 when it was introduced a Model T cost $850 and the average annual salary was $327. So at 2.6 times the average annual salary it�s fair to say that this car was a luxury that only a few people at the time could afford. Likewise, the most expensive Model S costs about $109,000 (without considering the federal tax credit) and the average annual salary at the end of 2011 was $51,413, so the Model S represents about 2.1 times the average annual salary. Therefore, even the most expensive Model S is still more affordable than the Model T was when it was introduced.
So in summary, I see it as history repeating itself. That is, it requires financially comfortable early adopters to get the ball rolling on these disruptive pivotal technologies. If you don't have the temperment, or don't have a high pain threshold to be an early adopter, its okay to back away.
Larry�
Jul 20, 2012
jerry33 Actually, I've done pretty well with early adopting. A few things that come to mind. (Can't count Tesla because I don't actually have it yet)
ATAS metal roof (8 years ago)
Takagi tankless water heater (10 years ago)
iPhone (first day of the original)
Prius (2001)
Prius (2004, on the first bunch of cars in Texas)
SGI Indy
2 drawer dishwasher (12 years ago)
Washer dryer combo (that is the washer and the dryer are the same system)�
Jul 20, 2012
smoothoperator I saw one of these at Fry's electronics I think LG made it and I was going to get one for my summer home. The salesman told me these were a waste of money and it would take something like 12 hours to dry clothes. What is your experience?
The good thing about Tesla is that the Model S is the second EV they have produced with a much more robust warranty vs the roadster. First time EV owners should not be concerned at all about the technology, if anything goes wrong it will be the peripheral stuff.�
Jul 20, 2012
jerry33 1. You put the clothes in before you go to work and they are ready to hang when you come home. If you want to hang around and watch them dry then you won't be happy (I'm not sure why you'd want to do this though).
2. There is no vent so you won't burn down your house.
3. The 110V uses far less energy than a normal dryer (the washing cycle is about the same).
4. It takes up less space (There is a place for a UPS now).
5. Should you require service, LG service is really bad. (I've needed service once in ten years)
The peripheral stuff breaks in every car. No difference there.�
Jul 20, 2012
brianman Doing multiple loads on "laundry day".�
Jul 20, 2012
jerry33 Just like with an electric car, you have to change your routine a bit. There is no laundry day, you just throw the clothes in and retrieve them later.�
Jul 20, 2012
brianman @jerry33 - I was answering the bolded part, and I think my answer was reasonable.
"Why would anyone do X?"
"Some people do X in scenario Y."
"Well, you should learn to do Z; I don't believe in scenario Y."
I don't follow the logic.�
Jul 20, 2012
bonnie Just a reminder ... this is what started this thread:
�
Jul 20, 2012
Robert.Boston So I think we've come down to some good answers to the OP:
- Very large batteries are expensive
- The motor and associated electronics are the result of expensive and patented research
- Aluminum frame and panels are expensive
- High-end interior materials
- High gross margin to cover fixed start-up costs
- Pricing for value, rather than cost+
�
Jul 20, 2012
smoothoperator Not 100% sure of this just yet. The interior materials are not high end for a 100k car and adequate for a 57k car�
Jul 20, 2012
richkae Don't forget that Tesla does not have the economy of scale that BMW or Mercedes or Lexus has.
Even if Tesla built the exact same car as one of those, it would cost Tesla more to build.
You are paying a premium to buy a car from a small manufacturer, but you have to if you want one because those guys can not or will not build a car like this.�
Jul 20, 2012
smoothoperator #5 covers that?�
Jul 20, 2012
ian201 I tend to agree that the Tesla Model S may fall short as a luxury sedan when compared to Audi, BMW or Lexus luxury models, but I think there is a more interesting comparison. As a sport sedan, compared to a Honda Accord EX or equivalent in the $35000 price range, the Tesla Model S is quite a lot of car for your dollar.
Consider the 160 mile base version of the Model S. This is basically the same car the Signature and Performance buyers are getting, albeit without the range or thoroughbred powertrain. Statically on the street, or even dynamically when driving the wife and cubs around town, it has the same head turning style and coolness, and all the same technology appointments in terms of EV powertrain, dashboard and remote access.
As far as EVs go, a 160 mile battery vs 85-100 miles of range of other models is really quite decent, and just enough to perform useful medium single day trips. While there is increased range anxiety vs the very comfortable 265-300 miles, a 160 mile battery has enough range for a 200 mile roundtrip with minor planning/inconvenience. That is, 100 miles to destination charger, taking the bus to CBD or catching a ride or charge with friends, then 100 miles back.
Regarding thoughts about simplicity-of-interior, for the most part I think buttons in cars are overused as a form of interior styling. In terms of exposing functionality, I find having many buttons decreases accessibility. I tend not to interact with modern dashes as the climate control generally manages things well, windows have dedicated buttons, and the sunroof is moved at the start & end of trips. The main thing I do interact with is the GPS (while juggling the iPhone for traffic info), and the Model S 17" screen looks to be game changing. If we follow the technology trends, the future of car interiors is minimalist wrt buttons, replaced by large displays and voice control as we see more ubiquitous car 'intelligence'.
Back to points about getting a lot of car for your dollar. Consider for $58000 you can get a 160 mile battery with pano roof, leather interior, air suspension and a 17" touch panel with technology package. 6.5s 0-60 is very competitive in this space. The price can be arbitrarily broken down to: $38000 car, $10000 prepaid gas, and $10000 early adopter tax which is funding battery research and bootstrapping a silicon valley auto company (awesome).
Even the Performance option is pretty good value. Consider for a moment that we remove the 300 mile battery requirement for the Performance model. Think a Gen3 with 160 mile range with performance option for an additional $15000. That's really not that unreasonable compared to what you pay when bumping the horsepower specs on a base Lexus, for a car with sub-5s 0-60! I think we'd see people splurging on Performance with 160 mile batteries, because there is value in what is being offered. The value is just less once you have to eat +$20000 for 300 miles of battery research, and there is a line somewhere in the $50k-$70k range that causes many to fail the reality check when considering the utility vs luxury features of a car.
So, for those of us tippy toeing into the "driver's car" culture, who are considering foregoing an upgrade to a low/mid-spec'ed BMW or Lexus from our Fords and Toyotas. Going EV with Tesla Model S - there is a lot to be excited about
�
Jul 20, 2012
smoothoperator Do you feel that the 100k+ Performance version is a good value? I mean value is subjective there is no car with the Model S' EV Range that currently exists, I am talking about when compared to other 100k sedans.
Simplicity & sparse are two different concepts. Regardless of what Tesla says about open consoles etc, I am not so sure if customers spending 100k on a car want an interior that looks like it was out of Pimp My Ride. In order for the Model S to be taken seriously in the Premium category it has to offer a richer looking interior. Better materials;from my interaction with the Model S, I felt that the door panels & door switch gear, arm rest, and seat adjustments did not feel substantial and (dare I use the word) cheap.
Lets be honest here the 85kwh Model S Performance is not worth 50k more than the 40kwh (with regards to value as you alluded to, you get way more car for your money buying a 57k Model S vs a 100k+ Model S Performance, more so than any other auto manufacturer that offers a significant price gradient between two models built on the same platform). Tesla is in a pool where they are the only swimmer. To put it plainly and bluntly, it is very likely that the Model S will not stand the test of time. What I am saying is, if Model S proves to be successful, I think it would be relatively forward to a large auto manufacturer to come in and replicate the best features of the Model S but also infuse it with interior equipment that is more befitting for a 100k sedan.
The Model S Performance costs more than E63 AMG"s M5's etc...the cost is now on par with S550's, BMW 7's etc
The enthusiasts, tree huggers etc will all stand in line for a Model S, but that just plays into the hands of what big auto manufacturers have been saying the whole time (Tesla is a niche brand not a mainstream brand). In order for the Model S to be a mainstream success they are going to have to conform and include a more feature rich and luxurious interior.
The Model S is a great first car, but if Tesla is going to play this minimalist angle, and open console nonsense I really do not think they can be taken seriously as a mainstream player.�
Jul 20, 2012
Larry Chanin Hi Jerry,
My point was that maybe Alex thinks that the Model S is unduly expensive because he doesn't think like an early adopter. That is, he may not ascribe the same level of importance to certain key aspects of owning a Model S that many early adopters do. For instance, maybe getting off fossil fuels is simply not important to him, but the interior really bugs him. So whereas an early adopter might be bugged by the interior, nevertheless his/her greater tolerance permits other key factors to outweigh the concern. If Alex doesn't share that perspective, then the Model S is probably not a good fit for him.
Larry�
Jul 20, 2012
ian201 Let's make up some arbitrary numbers to perform a value comparison.
160 version is a $38000 car with $10000 early adopter tax.
300 Performance version is a $59000 car with $35000 early adopter tax.
As a $38000 car I think it is pretty competitive.
As a $59000 car it's probably a stretch. Lacking Adaptive Cruise Control and Lane Assistant, it's a bit light on luxury features for me.
Separately, 300 model is just out of the question for me based purely on absolute price, as are all the cars you mention. Then knowing a good chunk of that price is battery tax makes it that much more unpalatable.
As a 'Model T' for those with some disposable income, the Model S 160 is worth consideration.�
Jul 20, 2012
richkae The Model S is a sedan with the cargo space of a small SUV.
There is nothing else on the market with that utility.
That utility is worth a lot of money if you need it.
Here's another perspective:
The 160 mile version is a $38000 car with $20000 worth of gasoline prepaid.
The 300 mile version is a $59000 car with $30000 worth of gas prepaid.�
Jul 20, 2012
Todd Burch Thank you Rich. You get it.�
Jul 20, 2012
smoothoperator Interesting comparison, but I would consider the Model S to be a hatchback (nomenclature taboo in the USA) and a closer comparison to a station wagon than a sedan.
The problem with your comparison is from an interior features standpoint they are both $38000 cars (40kwh & 85kwh).
You are basically paying more for power and range. I understand that and that is not my quam.
My problem is when you get to the Signatures & performance versions, you are left with something that is closer to a 38k vehicle rather than a 100k vehicle.
My question is why couldn't they have differentiated the higher end versions a bit more rather than the lipstick on a 38k car route? .If they need 5-10k more to make a 100k Performance Sig competitive with other cars at that price range, people would have paid it.
My problem is not the cost of the batteries/powertrain but rather the lipstick on a pig route they went with the top of the line Model S'.
The value may be there for the 40kwh, but it definitely is not there from a features/quality of materials standpoint the further up you go.�
Jul 20, 2012
richkae I think station wagons are fugley. It has greater utility than a station wagon but doesn't look like one. That has a lot of value.
You focus on the interior features and I will focus on the 5.6 second 0-60 of the 85kW version, the super quiet ride and the fantastic handling. You can't find a $38000 car that performs and functions like the 85kW version.
I don't have a problem with the interior and the power, ride, handling, utility, quietness and not burning gas are important to me.
I can understand that some people have greater expectations of the interior than I do. I want comfortable seats, I don't care how much stuff is wrapped in leather and wood.
I don't understand the lipstick comment, interior changes are all lipstick, what interior features do you want?�
Jul 20, 2012
spatterso911 Is it at all possible that the $38k car has risen in available features and luxury as to rival many of the 50k cars? My twin brother has a Sonata, it has more standard features than my bimmer. His car has leather, Bluetooth, sophisticated navigation, USB connectivity, moonroof, keyless entry, and telematics to his smartphone. Lane departure and ACC are features on many cars in that price range as well. Heated and cooled seats can be had on many 38k cars. I'm not sure that the presence or absence makes them "luxury" anymore. They are either there or not. I've personally never considered adaptive cruise (only makes you a less attentive driver) or cooled seats to be must-haves on any car at any price. I guess if Tesla had them as options available at an extra price some may be happy, others feel that they should be standard on a 100K car. Perhaps if you are buying a Kia. But not necessarily if buying a Bentley.
On a $200k+ Bentley Continental GT, 21" wheels are $3500 (per PAIR), ACC is $2500, upgraded sound is $8000, heated wheel around $600, rear camera around $1200, and that is for the W12 version, not the V8. They do through in a power trunk closer for free, but if you can only spring $192k for the V8, it'll cost you about a grand more to get that feature.
As early adopters, we have to accept that some things will need to be smoothed out before they can be implemented on the car. Perhaps they will be standard features in a future generation, perhaps retrofitted to our cars at a later time, but we shouldn't presume that all luxury cars must have these things as requisite features or else.
Thankfully, those who want absolutely no compromises can consider a 2 or 3 year lease and reach nirvana at a later time.�
Jul 20, 2012
smoothoperator
From your statements it sounds like you are getting a P85kw Model S?
Fact of the matter is we are early adopters and will probably buy anything Tesla will sell us (regardless of what the interior appointments look like).
The features I want are probably best suited for another thread....
IMO the Model S interior looks like a west coast customs job and not something one would expect factory in a 100k car. Is it functional? yes...
The current interior reminds me of a mid 80s caprice. I loved the prototype dash, materials & interior, very smart looking. Looked very modern, sleek, sexy and befitting for a 100k car. The new dash and interior looks like Tesla spent all their R&D on the powertrain. If Tesla wants to charge a few k more to put in something like that, I will gladly pay an extra fee on top of my Sig Performance. I will enjoy the car a lot more. I am not alone here, a lot of reviews I have read has some critique about how the dash looks like "insert late 70's mid 80's family travel vehicle here."
Looking at that dash makes me get flashbacks of going on 14 hour roadtrips in the family station wagon. Not what I expect in a 100k car
The pull handles and quality of materials are not very good...The interior door handles feel like they are chromed plastic, and feel flimsy. The arm rest feels so cheap, usually automotive manufacturers use a plastic that has a satin type feel, apparently the Model S uses a different type of plastic that feels like a travel toothbrush handle. I could go on and on about the skimping but I do not want to hijack this thread.�
Jul 21, 2012
jerry33 I agree with you. My point was that it's usually not all that painful to be an early adopter.�
Jul 21, 2012
richkae I'm getting a Signature Performance model...
I must admit now that I have lost all my objectivity, which is why I want to understand other points of view.
9 years ago the first Prius entered my garage. 4 years ago the last Porsche left my garage. I loved my Porsches, they were joy to drive. However over time I drove them less and less because while I enjoyed driving them, I loathed the gas station.
The Roadster has rekindled my joy of driving. However it is not practical and I am forced to use the Prius quite often. I was satisfied with the Prius until I got the Roadster, sometimes I just get in the passenger seat of the Prius and allow myself to be conveyed.
The Model S is pure driving joy with no downside. I can attack an offramp, enjoy a twisty road, and never visit a gas station. We won't have to choose between the baby stroller and the ability to buy groceries. An extra passenger isn't a packaging nightmare.
Is there room to improve in the interior? Probably.
However I can't honestly make a value comparison between the Model S and any other ICE car. There is no chance in hell I would buy any of them, so their value to me is zero.�
Jul 21, 2012
GSP Exactly how I feel.
I suspect that most EV drivers will never buy another ICE for their daily driver, and many will never buy another ICE period.
GSP�
Jul 21, 2012
bonnie That would be me.�
Jul 21, 2012
Robert.Boston Tesla Motors did the right thing in prioritizing the Model S development: get the power train and chassis near-perfect. Would it have been nice to get all the interior design elements near-perfect, too? Sure. But TM is constrained both on time and money, so I completely understand the need to prioritize.
My expectation is that the next iteration of the Model S (a year from now?) will have a substantially reworked interior to address precisely the points raised by @smoothoperator and others. They'll even be able to do this at the same price (+/-), as the "early adopter" premium diminishes, unit production costs decline with experience, and scale economies kick in. So, if having a Jaguar-level interior with extensive electronics (e.g. AAC) are really important to you, consider delaying your purchase a year or so. I'm confident that TM will have upgraded many aspects of the Model S by then.�
Jul 21, 2012
jerry33 The 2004 Prius came without some of the niceties that the 2006 through 2009 had. Waiting for them would have meant living with the horrible VW TDI for two or more additional years. Life's too short to put up with that kind of pain. Also whenever you're buying any kind of technical item, you can always wait and it will be better, cheaper, or both but you will be missing out on the fun you would have had.�
Jul 21, 2012
Jaff Ya-uuuuup! :smile:
(Agree with you about station wagons as well!)
�
Jul 21, 2012
dsm363 I agree. I think 2012/2013 will blend together in production and they won't do anything big with the interior until 2014 when the Model X has launched. Maybe even move things like the Model X steering wheel over.
I understand smoothoperator's comments about the the top of the line Model S not having the interior he would have liked. Tesla doesn't have the manufacturing capability to do a second interior trim at this point. I guess they could have added another $10,000 to the Signature line and do a custom interior but don't think that premium would have worked for the 85 kWh or performance. At that price, people would definitely have demanded lane departure, HUD...etc and they aren't ready.�
Jul 21, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla If Tesla does add more polish and function to the interior - in the 2014/2015 time frame along with optional AWD, I suspect - I wonder if some early adopters would feel really upset at that time. If you (aimed at any reader of this thread) might be one of those, it's definitely advisable to hold off, if you can, on buying the Model S in its current avatar.�
Jul 21, 2012
bonnie Another question might be "Do you think Tesla should keep the Model S exactly as it is and never upgrade, to avoid upsetting some of the early buyers?"
Every 'next gen' has improvements over the previous. This should be no different. If people are upset, then they should avoid technology in general.�
Jul 21, 2012
jerry33 Right. Every other car gets upgraded (and usually for the worst--that is it becomes bigger, more bloated, more expensive, etc. with each remake). Actually the Model S will stay current much longer because the software and personality are just a software upgrade away.�
Jul 21, 2012
dsm363 People will always be upset about something. If early 2103 cars were to have all of these features then I would understand but two years from now I don't think people can expect Tesla to sit still and be upset about that. Hopefully Tesla makes whatever upgrades are physically possible available to early adopters for a price of course.�
Jul 21, 2012
smoothoperator A lot of these upgrades may not be physically possible. The interior is not on par with other cars in the upper price range, I think most everyone can agree with that; even if you like the design of the interior, the materials used are inferior to that of other high end automobiles. So regardless the interior value is not there.
I can understand your point of view "people will always be upset about something" with regards to nit-picks etc. There have been several professional Model S reviews where they complain about the interior, quality of materials and design. This is not a nitpick about the seats being 2 shades too dark, we are talking about something that people will have to stare at for hundreds/thousands of hours, over the life of the car. This is not just about me not seeing the value (I am not Tesla's main customer, I will buy regardless) we are talking about people cross-shopping this vehicle with the E-Class, BMW 5 Series, Audi A6 etc. Its not good when most of the car reviews talk mainly about the molded in 17 inch screen and cluster, when doing the interior review.
Like I said, Enthusiasts, greenies, etc will buy the Model S that is not the problem (that just makes the Model S a niche vehicle), real problem is trying to get Tesla vehicles accepted by the mainstream. As the interior stands now, it will turn a lot of people off.
Hopefully the Tesla partners with the aftermarket and really steps the interior up a notch. I am skeptical about the opportunity console being the answer to cure the inadequate interior (I see it more as a band-aid). They really need to replace that whole center section and other bits and pieces in the interior to really attract the mainstream. As it stands the Price justification is mainly in the powertrain, chassis, and 17 inch screen + cluster.�
Jul 21, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla smoothoperator, I do agree that the interior as it stands today might turn *some* folks off but, mark my words: when the first few thousand cars are seen on the road and if there are no major glitches otherwise, this beast will take a life of its own
Many folks will then look past the perceived inadequacies in the more mundane aspects of the car and will be convinced by the technology (both the powertrain and the touchscreen). I don't think that this is wishful thinking; I see it as a sign of the changing times and the way people approach their tech purchases, cars included.�
Jul 21, 2012
brianman Indeed. If interior adornments are critical to you, a 3rd party can do that ("pimp my interior"). Not so much with the power train and chassis.�
Jul 21, 2012
dsm363 Early adopters would likely be happy if some of the upgrades were made available. I realize they can't replace the entire interior but if ACC or other things become available and can be retrofitted, I think people would like that. Most updates such as software and maybe faster cellular data connection will likely be made available and that will keep most people happy.
I see the next refresh addressing many of the interior problems. They probably won't be available to earlier cars though. If things like a small pocket in the doors, better cup holders...etc are added to the next refresh, I think most people will be happy. I don't think most people have complained about the interior material quality, more of the physical layout.�
Jul 21, 2012
smoothoperator Popular Mechanics
Interesting they thought the door pulls were aluminum, I could have sworn it felt like chromed plastic�
Jul 21, 2012
dsm363 Interesting. Most of the customer test reviews here have seemed happy with the materials but maybe not lack of storage. Something easily fixed in the next few years.
If you wanted to use the static version of the model S star rating gif too, that'd be nice.�
Jul 21, 2012
DavidM This is a great thread. I've been following Tesla for nearly two years. I'm a Model S reservation holder (since Nov. 2010). I've been to at least 3 Tesla stores, and I've met a lot of diverse and interesting people, including dozens of other reservation holders. Almost every reservation holder admits that the Model S is the most expensive car they have ever purchased. I would also say that at least half of all reservation holders have never purchased a luxury branded car before ($50K+). That means that Model S customers are not only confined to the luxury market of 1.3M cars annually. Model S buyers are expanding the luxury market ($50K+). Very interesting.
IMO, the smartest thing that Tesla did with Model S (from a marketing standpoint), is offer a choice of 3 batteries. If Tesla didn't do this, the list of reservation holders would be dramatically smaller. They are attracting several different kinds of customers to the same car! Of course folks are coming in for different reasons. I enjoy learning about all the different kinds of people who are ultimately attracted to the Model S. I've met (pardon my labels) techies, greenies, performance nuts, oil haters, name droppers, etc., and I love them all. Being a little bit of all these, I seem to be in good company.
I believe that whether you are paying $60K or $100K, it's worth every penny. I tell you that the oil industry is watching very closely. When the major auto companies realize they have to get serious about EVs, the industry will change in a hurry.�
Jul 21, 2012
Bardlebee You may be right about those options bringing in more people. I was originally going to get the 160 mile, but I have recently decided the 230 mile would be best for me. Obviously if money weren't an option I would get the performance.
But, I am looking to save my money on other things in life. The 160 opens itself to a lot of people who can afford the car with some saving, especially with the reservation wait time its more of an incentive for people like me who like to save a lot for something before going in with no money down.�
Jul 21, 2012
AlexSV It absolutely doesn't matter what PM is saying. If the car is green enough other minor issues like price or quality are not important.�
Jul 21, 2012
smoothoperator Out of curiosity which car do you feel offers more bang for the buck the Roadster or Model S? (obviously they are very different cars but within their respective category and purpose)�
Jul 21, 2012
AlexSV 1. E63 AMG (Model S)
2. SL 550 (Roadster)
Only one advantage of Tesla is electrical powertrain. In any other aspect it's worse. Sorry to tell you but E63 handling is batter. And SL 550 is way much more pleasant car than Lotus. In my opinion, of course.�
Jul 21, 2012
smoothoperator I have a few SL's (including the 65 variant), I am aware of what other cars bring to the table. You underestimate the people on this site, most of us have owned and still own performance cars, we are not oblivious to what other car manufacturers produce and how they handle etc.
My question was pointed to another Roadster owner, as I was curious to see his response with regards to cost vs value.�
Jul 21, 2012
stopcrazypp I've avoided this thread because it seemed like a troll thread initially, but given the length of it, I might as well add my two cents.
The Model S is not "rediculously expensive". The closest gas car to it is the A7 and that starts at $60k, just like the Model S (before tax credit). The CLS starts at $70k and the AMG version is $95k. The Model S Performance starts at $92.5k (before tax credit). Plus if you compare it to other plug-ins, you get a lot more bang for your buck.
First of all, the battery cells alone cost $10k-$20k (~$250/kWh at cell level; ~$2.5 for a 18650 cell, ~10Wh per cell). Battery pack (which includes the cells, the module and pack level aluminum enclosures, all the interconnects, wiring, tubing for the coolant system, etc.) alone costs slightly less than the $20-40k Tesla is charging (Tesla is charging $400/kWh in the pack level). The single 300kW/402hp electric motor would cost about $20k to source. Despite what you think of "piece of art in engineering" in the 911, an ICE is relatively inexpensive in terms of $/hp (about $21k for a 550hp supercharged V8 sold to directly to a consumer).
http://www.whitehouse.gov/files/documents/ostp/PCAST/PCAST%20Sep.%202008%20Straubel%20slides.pdf
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/9275-Model-S-Nominated-for-North-American-Car-of-the-Year-(2013)/page4?p=165112&viewfull=1#post165112
It's kind of ironic that you point out the 911, given Porsche makes the highest margins in the industry, 30+% gross margin for quite some time (40+% now according to the Tesla IPO article). Tesla's IPO Road Show mentioned a goal of 25% gross margins on the Model S. If you think Tesla is ripping people off, then Porsche is much worse!
http://business.fullerton.edu/finance/jgreco/fin570/Case7_Porche.pdf
http://www.iseg.utl.pt/aula/cad602/Analise_Porsche_200403.pdf
http://seekingalpha.com/article/229269-tesla-motors-this-hot-ipo-is-headed-for-trouble�
Jul 21, 2012
dsm363 Not sure. I still haven't driven the Model S (am going to Chicago for the event) but I'd probably say the Model S. Since it is a much more practical car, it will likely get more use from people who need more than 2 seats and a tiny trunk. For $75,000 well optioned out you can get a car with a similar range, sub 6 sec 0-60, lots of storage, much more practical and the ability to remotely cool your car which is big for hot climates. Also much easier to get in and out of and safer as well. I love the Roadster but it is an expensive sports car and all the things that come along with that. I'd never owned a sports car before so don't really have anything to compare it to. I have driven my Dad's M3 which has nice acceleration for half the price but I like the Roadster better of course. I know I just basically compared the two cars but think that given the Model S's expanded use and lower cost, it offers better bang for the buck.�
Jul 21, 2012
smoothoperator Oh I thought you had driven the Model S, after you drive it and have a chance the experience the interior, we can hear the "real" hands on comparison. IMO the Roadster is a better value because the materials are in line with a car in that price range (even with the expensive battery, motor etc)...Of course there are some quibbles like the center stack that flexes, and the plastic e-brake surround. From a quality standpoint the Roadster feels every bit as quality as say a Mercedes SL, or better IMO. I do not get that same feeling from the Model S, but after you spend some time in it we can hear your thoughts on the value proposition of the Model S in the marketplace.�
Jul 21, 2012
dsm363 I've sat in the Model S a few times but those were beta cars I guess. Was at the October event and have been to the Houston store after than. I'll see how I like things at the Chicago event but I've never owned a sedan nicer than a Volvo S80 before so might not be able to compare it to much. I think the leather quality in the Roadster is really nice but the rest of the car is very low tech (AC controls, crappy aftermarket Alpine unit, lack of adjustable steering column..etc). Still love the Roadster anyway which says a lot about the powertrain and driving experience for me at least.�
Jul 21, 2012
richkae If you want to compare the E63 AMG to the Performance Model S and talk money then you need to do some math.
An E63 AMG is $90000 and the Model S performance $85000 ( $92500 before credit ) similarly optioned.
The E63 AMG is essentially $30000 more because you are going to spend at least $25000 more on fuel over 100,000 miles. It offers $30000 more bang than the Model S performance? I am dubious.
It is also ridiculous to assert that the E63 handling is better without data.�
Jul 21, 2012
smoothoperator
Well the major benefit is the ability to lease an E63 you cannot do this with a Model S, currently. We know the E63 will depreciate like a rock it is unknown what the Model S will do (hopefully not what Roadster prices have done). You can limit your cost basis, and 90% of E63 buyers will not be driving that car to 100k miles, chances are they will dump it once the warranty expires or trade it in.
So with the E63 you can determine your fixed costs, a little tougher with the Model S (especially if something better comes out, you are stuck).
Have roadster owners been able to recoup the cost of fuel they have saved vs diminished value of the roadster when selling? Chances are a 911 turbo will hold its resale better than a roadster, the cost of fuel will be far less significant than the diminished value of the vehicle.
For example a 2010 911 Turbo Cab sold new for 132k, blue book is 108k with 24k miles should have no problem dumping it for 90-100k?
2010 Roadster with a few options would approach that figure, would be lucky to get 80k for it and probably somewhere in the 70's. What is that a difference of 10-20k in "gasoline" costs over 2 years?
I think this should also be taken into consideration with regards to the Model S value proposition.�
Jul 21, 2012
richkae I have a Roadster, I love my Roadster. It is a great car but lots of ICE sportscars beat it a few ways, some beat it lots of ways. I accept my early adopter penalty in order to drive electric.
However the Model S is very different. It has the cargo space of a much larger ( or uglier ) vehicle. It is very quiet at speed and under full power. It has insane acceleration. It has fantastic handling. It is incredibly cheap to fuel.
No other car on the road can put all of those things together at any price.�
Jul 21, 2012
vfx
One of many things that got downgraded from 1,5 (Carbon Fiber) to the 2.0 (plastic)�
Jul 22, 2012
medved Tesla Model S Saves You The Money
http://youtu.be/e31UhSCi5C8�
Jul 22, 2012
vfx Video uses my time.�
Jul 22, 2012
ElSupreme Except that the E63 costs $90,000.
It doesn't have 21" wheels.
It doesn't have carbon fiber rear 'spoiler' (it is $700 extra)
It doesn't have carbon fiber dash (it is $2,850 extra)
It has a 'F' efficiency class.
It would require $300 a month in fuel.
The Tesla 85kWh Performance is about the same $90,000 (added tech and sound to be comparable).
But it is pretty much silent.
It requires about $20-60 a month to operate.
Has near instant accelerator feedback.
The Tesla 40kWh is only about 63k delivered with a tech package.
I get $5000 back from Georgia.
I get 7,500 back from the Feds.
I get a faster than my current car.
I get HOV access.
I save $300 a month in fuel.
I will use about $30 a month in electricity.
I don't see how you think this car is so expensive.�
Jul 22, 2012
jerry33 Agreed. It's pacing sooo slow. A 15 minute video with maybe three minutes worth of content. The rest is just repeat, repeat. I couldn't stand to watch it all. E for effort.�
Jul 22, 2012
brianman At a minimum, they need to add a text-to-speech voiceover. It's a powerpoint slide with background music, not a video.�
Jul 22, 2012
Robert.Boston If the financing options are "the major benefit" of the MB, then "case closed." We've just shifted from talking about cars to talking about money. Tesla will get a leasing agreement in place for the US, just as they have for Europe. Regardless, financing options are out of place in a price-justification thread.�
Jul 22, 2012
smoothoperator did not say a major benefit just another piece of the price justification puzzle....as is depreciation...does price justification to you only consist of a cars purchase price? if it does then "case closed"�
Jul 22, 2012
Robert.Boston Sorry, you did say "the major benefit" not "just another piece". I'll accept that the range of financing options from a major OEM is a consideration for some buyers, but I still think it's off-topic to the core question of the sticker price of the car -- which is what I thought the OP raised.�
Jul 22, 2012
smoothoperator out of context....I was responding to someone's comment, not a standalone statement....
OP raised a generic question about price justification...with regards to the roadster (tesla's only GP delivered car thus far) resale dropped like a rock. Take a look at my 911 comparison and try to poke holes in that.�
Jul 23, 2012
dsm363 The 911 and the Model S are going after two different kinds of markets I think. 911 is more in the sports coupe segment while Model S is a performance sedan.�
Jul 23, 2012
raymond This is sooooo Matthew 20:1-16 (workers in the vineyard). (And if you knew me better the real funny part would be me quoting a bible text.)�
Jul 23, 2012
NigelM Any chance the stock is going to follow Verse 19?�
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