Jul 17, 2012
AlexSV Can anybody explain why Model S is so rediculously expensive? How come the car with just a battery and two electrical motors costs the same price as my 911 which is piece of art in engineering? What is the real profit margin for TM?�
Jul 17, 2012
AnOutsider I think your problem begins at "just a battery"...�
Jul 17, 2012
kevincwelch This piques my interest.
Has there been any discussion among TSLA investors regarding when the Model S may turn a profit? (This is just my ignorance; perhaps the company is already in the black.)�
Jul 17, 2012
SoCalGuy The price is not "rediculously" expensive (its not even "ridiculously" expensive either). You have to factor in the hundreds of millions of dollars spent in R&D to develop and commercialize the technology. That investment is recouped over the useful life of that tech and amortized over each unit/car sold. With a relatively low volume vehicle, that expense can be relatively high. (E.g. if Toyota spends $1B to develop a new Prius but expects to sell 10M priuses worlwide, it can amortize that upfront capital over 10M cars so the unit costs is say $100/vehicle if Tesla spent $500M to develop the S platform but only expects to sell 100,000 of them, then the unit cost is much higher at $5,000/car - that is above and beyond the actual unit costs of materials, labor etc) Similarly, each component in the vehicle has associated unit costs as does the factory used to produce the Model S. Simplicity is not something that is easy or cheap - there's a reason why Apple products cost much more than their clunky generic PC counterparts - there's a cost to engineering elegance and simplicity.�
Jul 17, 2012
AnOutsider Elon has stated they can be profitable off just selling 8k Model Ss a year. They expect to begin paying back the loans at the end of the year and be profitable next year.�
Jul 17, 2012
smoothoperator It is true that Tesla spent most of their R&D dollars on the powertrain and development of the 17 inch display, and the interior got the short end of the deal from an investment standpoint. I know several people that sit in the Model S and have commented that there is no way this is a 100k car. For the base model the Model S is a decent value, when you start to look at the Sig Performances and there not being much different with regards to the interior (between base and performance); this is where people do not see the value proposition of the Model S (when comparing to other 100k+ sedans). Tesla probably makes a healthy profit on the 85KWH Model S and barely breaks even on the 57,600 version.�
Jul 17, 2012
ckessel Tesla has (several times) stated 25% gross margins and expected profitability in Q1 2013.�
Jul 17, 2012
ckessel In my mind, it's a $50k car since the upper end is mostly battery cost (or Perf wiring/inverter stuff). Or maybe a $30k car, depending on how you view the the 40kwh battery. So, yea, its other intangibles like interior aren't really going to match competitors at the high end of the price range.�
Jul 17, 2012
kevincwelch Very nice.
Has anyone here on TMC plotted the growth of Model S reservations? Would be interesting to see how that rate changes in the second half of this year when the vehicle starts hitting the production numbers.�
Jul 17, 2012
AlexSV My problem? I am fine. Thank you. But if I am right and Tesla is pushing severely overpriced product Tesla will have problem. And very soon. I guess that number of people who are ready to pay $100K for the car which should really cost twice less is very limited.�
Jul 17, 2012
kevincwelch Do you suppose then that Tesla short changed the interior experience and is pushing the 85 kWh variants in order to make that profit earlier?
I agree that the interior is very spartan. I am a minimalist myself, but the lack of luxury feel in the cockpit compared to other similarly priced vehicles has left somewhat of a frown on my face as I move forward here.�
Jul 17, 2012
Todd Burch You clearly need to read up more about the car. It only has one motor, for instance. And to underestimate the engineering on the Model S is inaccurate.
The battery tech in the Model S is unsurpassed by any battery technology in the world. Have you looked at the chassis design? Do you understand the value of the simplicity of the drivetrain? The lack of a transmission? That fact that you don't have to pour expensive gasoline into it? These things all have a value.
Dig through the reviews here, and you will find several people who prefer the driving experience of the Model S to the 911.�
Jul 17, 2012
ckessel They've said they make the best margins on cars with the most options, that's true with every manufacturer, so I'm sure that's part of the decision on roll outs.�
Jul 17, 2012
kevincwelch
I'm not so sure you're right.
There are over 10,000 reservations, and if you view my surveys, the majority of them are buying 85 kWh versions. That puts them all above $75,000 purchase price. So, the majority of people now are willing to pay a pretty penny for this car.
I don't think Tesla is going to have a problem selling 15,000...maybe 20,000 cars. The problem Tesla faces, IMHO, is that the market for the $75,000+ car will dwindle rapidly since, really, the upper 5% of Americans are the ones who can afford this car. There's a lot of competition in this price range. In order to capture the upper 10 or 15% of Americans or break into the middle class, the price of a reasonably equipped automobile is going to have to be <$40,000. Beyond that, the infrastructure has to develop, and that's not Tesla's job. They are at the mercy of those that develop the technology, implement it, and the demand of the people.
This is, of course, a philosophical opinion and based on no firm data other than a reasonable assumption.�
Jul 17, 2012
ElSupreme AO didn't mean you have a problem. The 'problem' is your understanding the cost of the battery in the vehicle
There are tons of 'designer' clothing manufacturers that would disagree. I would say Apple would disagree.
The 85kWh battery alone costs about $40-$50. I assume that is what you mean by "twice less".
A Bimmer 7 series is the same cost what say you there?�
Jul 17, 2012
AnOutsider Yes, in the reservation tally thread there have been graphs and spreadsheets posted.
ok, not problem, logic error. Aside from the R&D and other facts pointed out above, we're talking a massive battery here, not a run of the mill 12v off the Walmart shelf. That alone will add 10's of thousands to the cost of the vehicle. Please also remember the car starts below 60k. The 100k+ configurations include lots more batteries ($10k per step up in batter gets you to 80k alone), higher performance, and of course, more profit margin.
I think consumers will end up recognizing the value add in Tesla's product. Apple doesn't seem to have a problem pushing MacBooks at their inflated price points (compared to PCs).�
Jul 17, 2012
AlexSV You can not compare Model S and 911. Different cars, made with different ideas in mind for different people. You can compare 911 with Roadster. I like 911 much better!�
Jul 17, 2012
ckessel There's a legitimate argument to be made that the high end Model S isn't competitive in some aspects (such as interior, parking assist, and such). It's certainly competitive on performance, external styling, handling, and such. Taken as an overall package, it seems to be competitive. Pretty much every reviewer so far has thought it's a competitive entry into Tesla's stated market niche.�
Jul 17, 2012
Todd Burch You mentioned the 911 in your first post, asking why they're in similar price ranges. Different things have different values to different people. Can you fit a family of 4 comfortably in the 911? No.
Can you go a few hundred miles on $10 of gas in the 911? No.
If there are people willing to pay the asking price for a product, then that is the very definition of that product having value at its price point. I wouldn't even consider the 911. Different strokes for different folks.
For comparisons, look at the Model S vs. BMW 5-series (or M5). Each car is stronger in some areas and weaker in others. Some here prefer the S to the M5, others prefer a regular 5-series to the Model S. it all depends on what they value. That does not mean that the price is ridiculous.
Also, you can take $10k-$20k off the cost of the Model S due to savings in fuel over its lifetime. Probably more than that considering premium fuel.�
Jul 17, 2012
AlexSV I'm not so sure about $40-50K for the battery. I can believe that Tesla would be happy to sell this battery for 40-50k. It doesn't mean that it's the real cost of the battery.�
Jul 17, 2012
Todd Burch Of course not. Tesla has superior, patented battery technology. That has value.�
Jul 17, 2012
AndyM You can make the same statement about the motor. Tesla has a lot of value in licensing that technology as intellectual property... so it makes sense that vehicles they produce with that intellectual property will cost more. Especially at the beginning of a business' life.
Price does not equal the sum of the parts + margin. Price responds to what the market demands for the product. A similar example: Apple products are not significantly better enough than generic PCs to support their higher prices (cringing from a flood of angry fan boy comment.. I own a lot of Apple stuff, btw), but the value customers perceive from the entire product (and service!) is enough to set a higher price tag.�
Jul 17, 2012
AnOutsider Mod note: edited the title of the thread to better represent the subject.�
Jul 17, 2012
Eberhard No, panasonic has�
Jul 17, 2012
smoothoperator This is true, Tesla's expertise is in packaging the batteries, not battery technology�
Jul 17, 2012
Citizen-T Nit-pic. Panasonic has good battery cell technology. Tesla has good battery pack (packaging, thermal management, software) technology.�
Jul 17, 2012
Joel I apologize in advance for going off topic (I'll try to bring it back on topic at the end).
I have been tracking reservations. While I haven't had the time to put it in a graph, I can tell you this: the reservation rate since the Amped Tour is nothing short of jaw dropping, remarkable, [insert superlative].
Here are the official numbers announced at Tesla's earning calls:
2011 Q2: 5,300 Units
2011 Q3: 6,500 Units (1,200 Net New Reservations)
2011 Q4: 8,170 Units (1,670 Net New Reservations)
2012 Q1: 9,800 Units (1,630 Net New Reservations)
New reservations have grown in the first two weeks of July to over 800. Adjusted for the lag in tracking the Europe reservations (I was slow on reporting that European Signatures sold out sometime ago), there are conservatively over 700 new reservations in the first two weeks of this quarter. This two-week rate would translate into 4,200 net new reservations for the 2012 Q3. This is significant, considering the last two quarters resulted in 1,630 and 1,670 net new reservations.
Granted, this extrapolation is extraordinarily optimistic (re: unrealistic). However, the data reflects what many of us already know, as more people drive the Model S (re: Amped Tour) and see the Model S (re: retail store openings), there is a significant increase in reservations. Given this data, I respectfully disagree that "Tesla is pushing severely overpriced product Tesla will have problem. And very soon. I guess that number of people who are ready to pay $100K for the car which should really cost twice less is very limited." Rather, there appears to be a significant number of people willing to pay between $75k and $100K for a Model S as more information is available (again, test drives, store openings, etc.). The data illustrates there are enough people to meet (if not exceed) Tesla's 2012 and 2013 sales projections.
I'm interested to hear what reservation number(s) Elon announces on the Q2 conference call. Given his history of releasing information prematurely (i.e., the Model S is 4G ready, Tesla will announce the Super-Fast Charging Network in July, etc.), I'd be surprised if he only announces the reservations through June 30th. My speculation is Tesla will announce over 13,000 reservations through July 2012.�
Jul 17, 2012
rsquared99 Something about that phrase "cost twice less" that sounds like it's from our friend Kent. I know it's not his MO to respond to challenges to his comments, but ...�
Jul 17, 2012
bonnie No, I think it's more of an 'English as a 2nd language' thing.
And I don't know what other people think it's worth to have the hand of God swoosh down to give you a boost whenever you press the accelerator, but I think that's worth a lot.
�
Jul 17, 2012
vfx An internal combustion engine is art.
And so is the Model S
�
![[?IMG]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/blogger_img_proxy/AEn0k_vZqNKZKazvKJOKrFvxfk2cs7xnDev92v4MzvIFcHneQ3Nb8X9wbdsyZRbSUNwtoHN1m4X8sYZaKMIlvU297eiCXM2zLI8OhfCj_TamGhdT-q7wDtvT49ybactZw_936HCXfCuufDAxXHZEgAKY2q2p=s0-d)
Jul 17, 2012
bonnie I'm a big believer in elegance achieved through simplicity.
Oh, hey! What a coincidence. That's my signature line�
Jul 17, 2012
Jkam While you may be correct about the American market, Tesla has barely tapped the international market and could see significant growth from foreign markets. Already Norway is the 2nd biggest customer of Tesla I believe. In Europe gas costs $7-$8 a gallon. Germany is the largest producer of solar electricity in the world. The European market is ripe for Tesla's taking. If BMW, Mercedes and Audi can sell enough luxury cars to sustain themselves, I see no reason why Tesla can't.�
Jul 17, 2012
raymond DISCLAIMER #1: This is not flame bait!
This all depends how you look at things. Your 911 has a plain steel structure (cheap, well tested, easy to manufacture), metal plating (doors, etc. - same argument as before), gasoline engine (millions of those have been made, and they're really easy to make: you just mold metal!), etc. The one thing that your 911 has that no other car has is, er..., well nothing really! It's just a car like a million others.
The Model S has an alumin(i)um chassis, structurally integrated integrated battery pack, high-power electrical circuitry, and a very clever touch-screen controlled interface to manage this all. So quite a few things are first-ever's, and it's made in a much lower volume. Result: relatively high price-tag.
Oh, and the S seats 3.5 times as many as a 911. It's a big car, and more car often means more money.
DISCLAIMER #2: I know nothing about Porsches - perhaps they are a piece of art.�
Jul 17, 2012
SoCalGuy Is that a photo of the Model S' actual electric motor? What's that red stuff?�
Jul 17, 2012
Eberhard copper rotor�
Jul 17, 2012
smoothoperator Initially this may be true but I think they make <10k 911's worldwide per year?�
Jul 17, 2012
vfx Surprised you have not seen this. These cutaways are in every new store. Santa Monica and Fashion Island too. The copper wiring wrapped around the rotor has a red tinted clear coating on it. Very common in electric motors.�
Jul 17, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla EVs can be complex too (for the sake of it?!) - Exhibit A: the Coda sedan's entrails (hmm... I see some big intestines, some little intestines...):
Maybe, the Coda should cost more?! :tongue:�
Jul 17, 2012
bonnie There's nothing simple OR elegant about that mess. #disqualified!�
Jul 17, 2012
AlexSV Interesting information. Thank you. I personally wouldn't be so exited about these numbers. People do a lot of things on a pick of enthusasm. It's not a big deal to send five grands as a refundable deposit. Especially if those five grands are not tha last. It's exactly what I did. Now, after two years when purchase date is just near by I have reason to think about the situation more seriously. So, what do I have? I planed to have Tesla for short everyday commute and keep my 911 for long long time (I usually change cars very often) driving it just for fun. And 911 is a lot of fun, trust me on that. For this purpose the idea of an electrical car for under $50K looked attractive. As I can see now its not going to work. With the way Tesla formulates the price Model S under $50 just doesn't exist. The minimal configuration for me now is $59000 after rebate but before Californian 10% tax. So I will have to pay approximately 65 grands for the car with very limited usability and very limited options. And I'm talking about smallest battery and slowest car. My wife's MB E350 had the same price tag. It's faster than Tesla (small one) and it doesn't depend on the limited charging network. And fuel tank is not shrinking with time. So if one is not particularly crazy about green planet what would be the reason to buy Tesla for this kind of money? I hope we all agree that the economy on gas is absolutely illusive. We will pay for the electricity and one way or another we will pay for the battery amortization.�
Jul 17, 2012
ckessel :scared:�
Jul 17, 2012
jkirkebo You are correct, and here's why: In Norway a fully optioned Model S Performance costs about the same as a base Audi A7 with the 2.8L engine and NO options at all. A fully optioned S7 costs 2,5 times as much and still the P85 Model S is faster.
A base Model S will probably cost less than a VW Golf GTD with the 2.0 170hp TDI engine and DSG gearbox.
I don't think they'll have any problems selling more than a 1000 cars here yearly, maybe even more than 2000. Though I suspect the sales will be skewed towards the Model X unless Tesla decide to offer a hitch and AWD on the S too.�
Jul 17, 2012
dsm363 I would say that it is a big deal for a lot of people to send in $5,000 even if it is a fully refundable deposit. Granted most people considering the Model S can probably do without that money for awhile but it's not like the $99 Leaf reservation.
The Model S seems to be a great handling car that is safe, environmentally friendly if that matters to you, and unique. Not many people will come up to you and talk to you or ask questions about a Mercedes E350 but I'd imagine you'll meet new people with the Model S. It can be quite fun. Granted in LA, you won't be the only one with a Model S but it's the ideal commuter car. Since you're keeping the 911, can you use that for your longer trips? What's your max mileage on a normal day? You were thinking of the 40 kWh pack then?
For me the biggest selling point is the remote cabin cooling. In Texas, the ability to cool your car to 70 while you're just leaving the movie theater for example and your car has been sitting in the summer sun for hours is awesome. Even if you don't care about the environment that much, never having to go the the gas station is worth a few thousand dollars a year to me as well. All the cost savings are presuming gas will stay under $4/gallon. All it takes is one oil crisis and driving an EV makes a ton more sense.�
Jul 17, 2012
kevincwelch I could definitely see Tesla hitting it large in the European market, especially given the costs of fuel and the proximity of major cities.
I just have my doubts about the American market until the price comes down. But, as I've said before, the brave few have to pave the way before the market expands.�
Jul 17, 2012
shokunin For some, decisions can also be political in nature. I tend to think of big oil companies as evil empires. They take government subsidies, pay for foreign oil, refine gas and then, prices gas for whatever they perceive the market will bear. It's like being addicted to drugs and paying whatever they are asking because you have to have it.
I hate when my friends complain about things, yet do nothing about it. If you ever complained about gas prices, war in the middle east, oil subsidies, gulf oil drilling or anything, then speak with your wallet. Support a Califronia-based company delivering a true alternative to the ICE and gasoline.
Why would the economy on gas be illusive? There's cost of ownership that needs to be factored in. Drive the E350 for 75,000 miles vs a Model S and which will be cheaper during that lifetime? Electricity can be offset if you have solar or get TOU night time rates from Edison. The price of model S has some premium associated with it that would offset the amount of gas one consumes on a monthly and yearly basis.
Battery depreciation is somewhat of an unknown on vehicle depreciation, but am hopeful that after 10-12 years replacements could be had much cheaper than they are today.�
Jul 17, 2012
AlexSV Now I'm totally confused. I see that 80% percent people here are up to most expensive Model S. So, we are talking about $100000+. This money buys Porsche 911 or BMW M5 or E63 AMG or S550. Do you mean that people who the whole life could afford only Hondayota and Geo Metro suddenly jumped into hundred thousand segment? Sorry, but I can not believe that anybody for whom 5K is a serious financial burden would ever consider purchase of so expensive and exotic car.�
Jul 17, 2012
Jrhodesmd As an ex-911 owner I agree it is a work of art. HOWEVER, do you know that the Porsche 911 is the HIGHEST MARGIN car on the market? It actually has a 75% margin!! Reason being there is not much engineering that goes into it now, as its design has remained basically stable (with only minor mods) for decades. This is verifiable fact. I know, I was completely surprised when I learned that also.�
Jul 17, 2012
Zextraterrestrial
I think it should cost twice as much or at least 1-1/2 times (keep less people from having one:tongue
(my most expensive car ever was $30k - after tax, lic,fees - model S will be $100,300 before any fees)�
Jul 17, 2012
ckessel Absolutely. My most expensive car was $28k before this. And I'm not getting a $100k Model S. My likely configuration is around $80k. And that's an upgrade from my original $65k model since I got an unexpected $15k since the time I originally deposited.�
Jul 17, 2012
bonnie Now I'm the one totally confused, Alex.
I don't get the point you're trying to make. You seem to not like Tesla or the Model S - or am I missing something?
Could you try restating your position here? Please explain it for my simple mind. Because I read your posts and I just don't know what you're trying to tell us.�
Jul 17, 2012
AlexSV Sure. And solar system just jumped on your roof for free.�
Jul 17, 2012
Todd Burch I don't get it. You claim to have a 911 and MB E350, and that a $5k deposit is no big deal, yet you're complaining that the Model S is too expensive?
You DO know that you NEVER pay just base price on any car, right? They all have tax. Tesla's pricing methods are not signicantly different than anyother car company. Expecting that you'd pay under $50k when that was essentially announced as the base price after tax rebate was...well..naive.
And it must be fed expensive gasoline, which gets more expensive over time. Have you driven a Model S yet? If you have a reservation as you say you do then you should drive it to see for yourself.
Here are some reasons which have nothing to do with environmental friendliness:
-Single-speed: instantaneous torque from any speed, no shifting required, no transmission.
-Lots of storage space
-Unique touchscreen/digital interface.
-Ride quality. Very quiet, very little vibration, stiff chassis.
-excellent handling (lower CG than the MB)
-Simple drivetrain. Less to go wrong.
-No oil changes.
-Telematics/pre-conditioning of the cabin via smartphone.
-Cheaper cost per mile than the 911.
-When you want to accelerate quickly in the MB or 911, you have to wait for the downshift to get in the peak power band. No delay at all in the Model S.
-Foreign oil independence
-Outstanding safety.
-Uniqueness/conversation piece.
If you do the math--and getting the P40 battery--you'll find that the extra cost for the battery is much less than you will pay in fuel for the 911 or E350. The larger battery pack you buy, the more you have to drive for the battery to pay for itself. But given premium fuel and the life of the car, the cost of the largest battery and a similar sedan are not dramatically different.
Seriously, if none of these things are of value to you, then I suggest you refund your deposit and look elsewhere. There are plenty who see these things as well worth the price.�
Jul 17, 2012
jkirkebo The most expensive car I've bought so far is the Leaf. I have a Model S reservation and that car will probably cost me about 2,4 times of what I paid for the Leaf. So it's a pretty big step up the ladder.
Incidentally, we'll keep the Leaf too�
Jul 17, 2012
Todd Burch My car will be very well optioned, and will cost $79k after tax rebate. You're rounding WAY up, or using signature/performance prices. Again, you ignored it before but remember you're essentially paying for a lot of your fuel up front with this car.
And the most expensive car I've ever owned was a Saturn SL1. Bought it for $14,500.�
Jul 17, 2012
doug It's a dielectric varnish on the rotor.�
Jul 17, 2012
AlexSV Don't be upset.
I'm just trying to understand for myself: why the car which in terms of luxury is so behind is so expensive? I've got used to some standards in luxury cars and I want to understand if very questionable advantage of electrical power overweights obvious lack of basic luxury options - sports seats, seat ventilation, storage space (luxury?), memory seats, heating steering wheel... Not talking about absence of modern safety features. If I'm about spending about $70000 I must be sure that I do it for reason other than "just cool". It's cool, no doubts. And?�
Jul 17, 2012
bonnie Oooh. A pat on the head.
I guess you're the only one who can decide if the 'questionable advantage of electrical power' has value to you. To me, it does.
Loved my 911T, loved my M5. But neither compared to my Roadster. They were nice cars, great cars. I enjoyed driving those cars. But not the way I feel about the Roadster. You may just not be the person who enjoys what driving an EV brings to the table. And that's okay. But asking other people to explain the value and then arguing about what they say ... seems like your mind is already made up.
Make sense?�
Jul 17, 2012
smoothoperator Some people bought Tesla Roadsters which ranged between 103k to 158k+
You could have purchased an Aston Martin Vantage V8, R8 Convertible, Mercedes SL AMG, Maserati GT, Almost two 911's etc
A lot of us have Ferrari's and other performance cars, but the feeling you get without ever stopping at a gas station, in many ways becomes a way of life. No matter how fast or how good looking the "next" great performance car is, it is tough to go back, once you have lived with an EV for a significant amount of time.
To the enthusiast these cars and the cars you listed are not competition. There is only one car company that makes a performance fully electric vehicle at any price; that is Tesla.�
Jul 17, 2012
Sousaphil Actually, yes. I just signed a 20-year lease with Solar City. The zero-down option basically means immediate break-even. It will supply 115-125% of my energy consumption including 80 miles worth of charging a day.�
Jul 17, 2012
arondaniel Here's a counterpoint. 5K is plenty serious to me, and I'll be getting the base model S, my only option will probably be blue paint. At 50K after rebate it's already twice what I've paid for my current car in 1999 dollars.
At 50K I'll have essentially the same 100K car. By the time the "Porsche 911 or BMW M5 or E63 AMG or S550" has had its head gaskets, timing belt (plus tensioner), distributor, oxygen sensors, exhaust system and water pump replaced, I will buy a new battery (for a lot less than it costs now) and I will have quite nearly the same performance & range of that 100k Tesla.
-A�
Jul 17, 2012
shokunin Honestly, you have to drive it to understand the enthusiasm behind the S. Did you get a test drive on the recent Get-Amped tour in Los Angeles? It is fast, but it's really the acceleration that gets you going. It's like a roller coaster that maxes out at 40mph. I's not the speed but the g-forces that make the ride. The model S provides some outstanding G-forces in acceleration. Instantaneous acceleration the millisecond the pedal is pressed and keeps going without any shifting.
Not going to disagree that there are still some compromises in luxury features and safety amenities in the current price range. Only you can decide if those shortcomings are worth the price. There are features only the Model S will have vs the comparable cars and vice versa. To justify the price differential is personal decision.
Tesla's a young company that needs to profit in order to fund new R&D, payback it's government loans and provide shareholder value. It's all about free market and it's priced where it believes the market will accept. It's priced just high enough to be a rather unique vehicle for some time if that appeals to you.�
Jul 17, 2012
clmason AlexSV,
With the Model S you are paying for cutting edge technology. The features you listed that the Model S lacks are luxury options. Model S is not a luxury car. Simple as that.�
Jul 17, 2012
AlexSV Cool. Me too. Moreover, they finished the installation the day before yesterday. But it wasn't for free, I have to tell you. Upfront 20 years lease costs me $9K. Your system is probably even more expensive. The same as you payed for your gas upfront.�
Jul 17, 2012
c2tb I think this is an interesting thread and reflects the diversity of Tesla enthusiasts and their reasons for being willing to purchase a Model S. The plain truth is that for less than $50K (Im being generous) you can purchase a brand new vehicly that has 99% of the functional capacity of any car more expensive than that. Of course that excludes specialty cars with bullet proof glass, smoke screens etc but I giess that doesnt represent function capacity. With that in mind any body purchasing a car for more than that amount cannot be justified from a purely practical standpoint. Every one who spends more than that will have their own personal reasons to justify the additional expense. It is illogical to try to tell one who finds a value in the beauty of a Picaso that their choice is a poor one.
One may decide that environmental concerns drive their decision or that the love the beauty or the novelty of the car. Some may quote the unique driving experience.
For me its a little of all of the above. First and foremost I believe in climate change and the role humans play and so I believe anything I can do to lower my carbon foot print is doing my part. I also believe in evil big oil and the efforts they will go through to thwart any efforts for this technology to survive. It pains me to see how much they can get away with and how duped we are to continue to supprt them. The only way for this technology to get over the hump is for early adopters to take the relative risk necessary to reach critical mass so that the infrastructure necessary to make it practical will be built. Lastly, I flat out love the beauty, elegance, power, performance and cutting edge technology of Model S. All of those factors have a value to me for which I am willing to pay $100K�
Jul 17, 2012
AlexSV I drove Model S. I like Model S. It's only one reason why I'm still here. But I'm not sure yet that I like it enough to buy. I understand Teslas' problems. Unfortunately I'm not American Reserve. I don't print money.�
Jul 17, 2012
dsm363 Excellent point. Congrats on your reservation if you've already locked it in. I'd consider the tech package too since I don't think they should sell the car without it but they were trying to hit a price point.�
Jul 17, 2012
sp4rk Sorry, I don't believe a word AlexSV says.
Clearly English is not first language, even though "he" suggests he is from California.
You are all being wound up ... by a naysayer.
Each round he comes up with a new argument.
Sure admins can see his IP address and I'll put my $5k on the table (scratch that, $1) to suggest the country!�
Jul 17, 2012
dsm363 I'm sure you realize this but you are paying a certain early adopter penalty with the Model S. Even though it is more mature than the Roadster it still is basically Tesla's first car. You need to think of this more as a $60,000 car than a $100,000 car since the battery is such a big percentage of the cost to make the car. A well optioned 85 kWh car is around $83,000 so less than the 100k+ you quoted (that would be performance Signature models). You're paying to be free from gas which is awesome. I've had my Roadster since Dec. 2010 and can't ever see buying another gas car again. If I do, it would be a used car to keep in the garage for the occasional really long trip (at most once a year) but would probably just rent in that case anyway. Since you live in California, you're lucky since the Supercharger network will be much better there than probably anywhere in the US to start.�
Jul 17, 2012
smoothoperator Canada?�
Jul 17, 2012
jbherman I have to agree with sp4rk. I find it a bit fishy that AlexSV just joined this board about 2 weeks ago. To me, this smells like a board "troll." Maybe it's just a language barrier issue...maybe it's all just a joke.
The sum of it is that no matter how much money you have, this is an expensive purchase. It's a personal decision for each of us. We all have different reasons for wanting or not wanting to move forward. I don't think that Tesla needs to justify their price point. That's for each individual consumer to decide. If Tesla prices themselves out of the market, they'll find out soon enough. Honestly, for many reasons, this is kind of a "stupid" purchase for me, despite the fact that I can afford it. I just can't seem to help myself (especially after the test drive)! I keep finding ways to rationalize the whole situation!�
Jul 17, 2012
ophthodawg AlexSV,
welcome to the forum, this is an interesting thread for sure. I respect your opinion but wondering what your level of exposure to the Model S has been. I may have overlooked this while reading the comments... have you had the opportunity to drive the car? If not, then I suggest you do so, i think you will be impressed.
I drove it at the Palo Alto "Get Amped" event this past weekend and the car was superb in its driving dynamics and solid feel (vault like). I agree that some fiddly (read: fit and finish) details need to get sorted but what Tesla has accomplished thus far is nothing short of astonishing (in a good way).
If you appreciate the engineering of a Porsche (as I do) I can't understand how you can overlook Tesla's design/engineering achievement with the Model S.
Admittedly I am drinking the Tesla cool-aid but I appreciate their disruptive mind set and engineering acumen, so far they appear to be delivering...�
Jul 17, 2012
Jeeps17 I resent that !
Pick on someone your own size !
:biggrin:�
Jul 17, 2012
jerry33 Isn't Canada larger than any country other than Russia?:smile:�
Jul 17, 2012
brianman Can you please point me to another consumer vehicle that is "fast" and "has an electrical motor" and is available for purchase -- not in a trial market -- throughout the U.S.? I'm honestly curious if there are any. I haven't found any without the "T" badge.�
Jul 17, 2012
ckessel All other items aside, I find this somewhat offensive and xenophobic. Just because someone doesn't have English as their native tongue doesn't mean they can't currently live in Los Angeles (or any US location for that matter).
Just had to get that off my chest.�
Jul 17, 2012
sp4rk It was not meant that way ... I am a bloody foreigner! Guess where from?�
Jul 17, 2012
AlexSV You are right. English is not my first language. Not even the second.�
Jul 17, 2012
AlexSV Same here.�
Jul 17, 2012
William13 The price of any car beyond a Honda Fit for a small car or Chevy Malibu, Toyota Camry, etc for a full size car is a matter of desire. The cost to build an electric car due to battery costs and engineering is very high still today. Thus a limited market.
For me an electric car is a near lifetime desire.�
Jul 17, 2012
dsm363 Exactly. Any car over $35,000-40,000 is hard to justify rationally. It becomes something you just want (like most things I guess) and not something you really need. My most expensive car before the Roadster was a Volvo S80 that I had for 10 years and I loved it. I'd probably still be driving it if the transmission hadn't broken.�
Jul 17, 2012
richkae How many of the following did you buy when they first came on the market?
smart phone
flat screen TV
mp3 player
cell phone
laptop computer
dvd player
cd player
VCR
walkman
microwave oven
automatic dishwasher
...
Every one of those items was initially much more expensive than the item it replaced.
To some people they were so desirable they were worth far more than the item they replaced, others waited.
My decision to buy a Model S is based on many factors, including the quality of the driving experience and the utility of the car.
One hard to quantify factor is that I feel strongly about where my dollars go. I do not like where dollars spent on gasoline go and what they do.
I've done the break even calculations and they are not as important to me as knowing that my dollars are buying technology from a domestic upstart company instead of gasoline.�
Jul 17, 2012
JakeP Going back a bit, +1 to c2tb...very well stated. My reasons for buying a bleeding-edge 100K vehicle are comprised of the same spectrum that you cite here. And I do so with open eyes, fully aware of the risks involved...be it a lack of center console storage, or a network of superchargers that may never hit the midwest in the density my travel style demands.�
Jul 17, 2012
pharma5 Argentina would say priceless:
�
Jul 17, 2012
kevincwelch Nicely put.�
Jul 17, 2012
Zextraterrestrial I bought none of them initially
some of them years later - cd, vcr, dvd, mp3 player
cell phone but got rid of it 10+ years ago
some of them I don't have and never bought- smart phone, flat screen tv, microwave, dishwasher
but Tesla Model S will be a different story�
Jul 17, 2012
smoothoperator Any car is a matter of desire (for that matter any extraneous item in life besides food, clothing & shelter) you can take public transit. It does not make sense to call a Honda Fit essential but not call a Model S essential. They both are in the same category- automobile ownership (which in itself is not an essential item and a matter of desire). Price has little to do with it; any car can be considered a luxury!�
Jul 17, 2012
SByer The 911 has very nice driving bits - engine, clutch, steering. I could see calling them works of art - certainly they're one of the best examples of ICE drive technology. But the ergonomics of the non-driving parts were meh at best. Buttons, unlabelled buttons, everywhere! And an HVAC control system that defied logic. It was the best ICE car I will ever own. Had it for 6 years (and had saved up for a new one when an opportunity came along).
I traded up to the Roadster. Full torque at zero. Throttle latency 1/2 that of the 911. Better steering (doesn't need power assist, thank goodness). And, the interior is a better design, in spite of using cheaper materials. Much better driving in traffic, or in the twisties (regen on the go pedal). There are many, many little subtle things in driving an EV that just make it better, and it takes more than one test drive to figure some of those out. After three years, I do not miss the 911 one bit. I have an aluminum and carbon fiber rolling work of engineering genius - it looks simple in spite of the complexity.
I get where I'm going happier, in a better mood, and having had more fun with the Roadster than I would have with the 911. It's mobile therapy on a whole new level. Now what is that worth?�
Jul 17, 2012
NigelM Hey, some of us are stil sore about that!�
Jul 17, 2012
spatterso911 AlexSV, given that you have driven the Model S (and hopefully, with your vehicular ownership pedigree, driven the Performance), you can surely realize that it performs on par, if not better than many of the sedans you have owned. I would say that if you are in the market for an CLS 63, E63, M5, S6 Audi, Porsche Panamera (S or S hybrid, Panamera Turbo), you would be hard pressed to find areas that these vehicles substantially outperform the Model S. All while costing virtually the same or less, and with an average operating cost that puts the competition to shame.
Your comparison of the 911 to a Model S is apples to oranges. Being in the market for one of the above vehicles does not make this a "stupid decision" when you look at the big picture. I still don't have a clear idea of why you are looking at a BEV, if Green values are not important to you. If you have issues or concerns about conventional autos that compelled you to consider a 100% electric vehicle, I challenge you to re-explore them and ask yourself if they really are important to you. If they aren't, then you will not be satisfied with the Model S, because many of the early adopters hold those values in high esteem and are an important part of why we are on-board with Tesla, irrespective of the size of the car, amount of interior cubby holes, quality of leather, or presence/absence of adaptive cruise control, lane departure, pre-collision avoidance, heated steering, or rear camera.
My current car costs over $95K, has none of the above, costs $70 to drive 240 miles, and will cost a small fortune to maintain over the next several years, just in simple maintenance. Just so happens to be a fast German car.�
Jul 17, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Well said, spatters! Yes, those said values are just as important as price/performance/features when comparing the Model S with a fancy (German) performance car.
AlexSV, if you are merely playing the Devil's Advocate here, then, this is probably moot. If you are genuinely considering the Model S, then, don't stop with using traditional metrics alone when comparing with a conventional performance ICE.�
Jul 17, 2012
Trnsl8r Holy cow, nine pages of this?! The answer to Alex's question is right here. You're welcome. Next thread.
Put another way:
"Doctor, it hurts when I do this."
"Well, don't do that."�
Jul 17, 2012
dmckinstry Exactly. I've wasted an hour reading through this. To Alex: If you only have a short daily commute, want an electric, but don't want to spend much, get a Leaf. It will serve your purpose. It doesn't have the comfort, room or range of a Model S, but it should be enough for you if you have to complain about the Model S pricing.�
Jul 17, 2012
bonnie Do you really think this is going to work?�
Jul 17, 2012
meloccom The car my Model S will replace is a Mercedes A Class that I bought new for AUD$46,000 in 1999 and was the most expensive car I had purchased by a factor of 2.5 at the time.
I spent the money then because the car had unique engineering \ styling and offered a unique experience compared to the 'normal' option.
Estimated cost of a 60Kwh Model S is about double that when it finally arrives here (Australia) plus options.
I would not have considered spending that sort of money on any car normally but again the Model S 'appears' to offer both unique engineering and driving experience not available anywhere else.
You're right, so far I 'only' have AUD$6,000 invested in it and the final decision to purchase will depend on a few things including Australian pricing and convincing my partner that it's worth all that dough.
Ignoring the Climate Change thing, I can see the logic behind the end of oil, and about 30 Australian's have died in Afganistan\Iraq too. I think about that when filling up my current car and can see this purchase as being part of the solution.
No other option, Leaf included, answers these concerns but at the same time has the range I need for a regular 16oKm highway trip every 2 weeks.
I see your point in comparing the Model S with other luxury cars, but I think a lot of perceived luxury comes from all the chromed controls and buttons that a regular ICE needs.
The Model S completely sidesteps this requirement with the touch screen interface leaving the rest of the interior looking a bit plain. But I think that's a good thing.
Quoting Mies van der Rohe I think "less is more" in the interior of the Model S and I don't think after a while you will miss all that clutter.�
Jul 18, 2012
deaton52 Kevinwealch - you are correct -- consider this press release in Jan of 2012:
(Reuters)
Thu Jan 5, 2012 3:57pm EST
The BMW brand sold 247,907 vehicles in 2011, up 13 percent from the previous year. Mercedes-Benz brand sold 245,231 vehicles, also up 13 percent.
BMW's surge ended the streak of 11 years for Lexus as the top-selling luxury brand in the U.S. market. Lexus was third in 2011, selling 198,552 vehicles, a drop of 13 percent. Toyota and Lexus sales suffered from the effects of last March's earthquake and tsunami in Japan.
Toyota officials projected on Wednesday that Lexus' 2012 U.S. sales will increase by more than 20 percent.
General Motors Co (GM.N) has positioned Buick as a luxury brand and it was fourth in that category in 2011, with sales of 177,633, up 13 percent. GM's Cadillac was a laggard among luxury brands; it grew by only 3 percent to 152,389 vehicles sold, for fifth place.
Honda's (7267.T) Acura brand also suffered from effects of the Japanese earthquake, and saw sales drop 8 percent to 123,299 vehicles.
In seventh place was Volkswagen AG's (VOWG_p.DE) Audi with sales of 117,561, up 16 percent. Nissan Motor Co's (7201.T) Infiniti, also impacted by the Japan earthquake, sold 98,461 vehicles, down 5 percent.
Let�s see: That�s over 1.3 million luxury cars sold in 2011. Given the unique market position of Tesla (the ONLY EV), and the universally rave reviews of the Model S, how could anyone conclude that Tesla will have a hard time selling a measly 20,000 cars a year? That is less than 2% of the luxury car market. This seems like a no-brainer to me. Perhaps another 'Apple' analogy is called for here. What market share of PCs did Apple have during its early years?�
Jul 18, 2012
VolkerP Great thread so far. Thanks to AlexSV for starting it.
I am concerned that someone posting a Tesla-critic position is put to derisive language, flaws in English are picked out, or is labelled a troll/foreigner/you-name-it. All the Tesla mantra was thrown towards him and he did a good job of answering it all alone. In turn, he was accused to "bring new arguments". Sorry?
Critical questions should help everybody to better understand what are his personal motivations to get involved in electric vehicles. This thread servers that reason well.
my 2c�
Jul 18, 2012
rcf8000 I don't understand why people think the Model S is expensive. Compared to ICE cars with comparable performance, it's not. Price out a Panamera, for comparison.�
Jul 18, 2012
ElSupreme My previous most expensive car was a $22k 2007 VW GTI (exactly 2 options, rear side airbags, and 4 doors). I am buying a 40kWh S, with the tech package, and probably the air suspension. I was looking at buying a $30k car. I don't drive distances between 110 and 250 miles per day. So larger battery packs would only really buy me peace of mind, and the ability to road trip in an EV. But I am going to drive the fiancee/wife's car or rent when I have to drive to Charlotte, or Florence, SC.�
Jul 18, 2012
pharma5 Sorry! :redface:
This thread seemed incomplete after I saw Bonnie's line... and knew the peculiar influence of Diego must have been afoot...�
Jul 18, 2012
ElSupreme I think I can only claim to be early on DVD player. That sucker cost me about $500. I had a DVD drive in my computer before that which probably cost about $400 by itself. I did buy the first Android phone HTC/T-Mobile Dream/G1. But that was my first 'smart phone'. I was too young for everything up to CD player. And too poor/young for Laptop, cellphone, mp3 player, flat panel TV.
Zextra you need to get a dishwasher. I lived without one for about 3 years after college (I had one growing up) and had no problems washing them by hand. I bought a house, and thus a dishwasher, and it is a really crappy one. But I use it all the time. Of that list I would understand if someone didn't want to live with them, except microwave and dishwasher unless funds were a problem. Microwaves are so cheap and so efficient at heating up water. And dishwashers are huge time savers.\
All of these are just my opinion. And I also promote mobile telephones over land lines. And if you don't want a mobile, plug it into a charger in a drawer and Bluetooth it to some handsets. They really are cheaper than land lines. I wouldn't consider this a 'mobile phone' for the topics of this conversation though.�
Jul 18, 2012
AndyM +1 for the "Ignore Thread" option on the forums?�
Jul 18, 2012
bonnie *cough* ... topic. Stay on it.�
Jul 18, 2012
bonnie So safe to say everyone has put in their two cents about what the Model S is worth?�
Jul 18, 2012
richkae Not even close. There is a lot more to say.�
Jul 18, 2012
ElSupreme Bonnie I think a Model S is worth WAY more than two cents. Even if everyone on the forum chipped in. :biggrin:�
Jul 18, 2012
bonnie We could start a raffle. Who wants to donate their Model S?�
Jul 18, 2012
raymond Wikipedia mentions US$2.5/Wh, which would amount to US$34.000 for the 85kWh battery, excluding thermal protection, etc. That makes the quoted amount "plausible".�
Jul 18, 2012
brianman I hate to nitpick but here, I think, you're using the period as numeric delimiter in two different ways and in a larger post it would be terribly confusing.
I believe you mean "5/2" for "2.5" whereas I think you mean "34*1000" for "34.000".�
Jul 18, 2012
ItsNotAboutTheMoney I think, Mr Picky McPicker, that he went Dutch on his separators and forgot to translate the second one.�
Jul 18, 2012
brianman Yah, I figured that. The partial conversion is the issue, not the conversion itself.�
Jul 18, 2012
ElSupreme I think that is also Cell price. Not assembled battery pack price.�
Jul 18, 2012
AustinPowers I can see several (even though I hope Tesla will manage to sort out many of them before they start selling the Model S here).
The problem with Tesla and the European market is that the Model S is not really geared towards the needs and expectations of the European (and especially German / French / British) customer. It is far too large for European cities, parking spaces, etc. The lack of Tesla facilities is contrary to what European customers are used to - having a dealership or workshop practically around every corner. And while the driving experience may be out of this world, the car leaves a lot to be desired in other vital areas (interior, options, comfort, practicality).�
Jul 18, 2012
AustinPowers :scared:
What crazy prizes does VW / Audi charge its Norwegian customers?
I just now and just for fun configured an S7 with every option available (always the most advanced and expensive, including many extras the Model S buyer can only dream of! - HUD, LED headlights, assistants galore, ski-bag, B&O sound system, climatized massage seats, ...), and it topped out at about 138K Euro. How is that 2.5 times a Performance Model S? That would mean a P85 Model S would cost around 55K Euro!? No way that's gonna be the case.
Especially as European pricing hasn't even been announced yet? Or has that changed?�
Jul 18, 2012
AustinPowers ???
Hasn't that been around for decades? If so, I certainly wasn't around on this planet at that time .
Wait, what was this thread originally about again? ;-)�
Jul 18, 2012
jkirkebo Over here a fully optioned S7 costs about 250k euros. So I was wrong, it's more like 3x the price of the Model S. Remember we have 25% VAT and a lot of taxes on horsepower and weight which hit the S7 hard. EVs like the Model S are exempt from VAT and all other taxes.
I expect the P85 S to cost about 85-90k euros here. Directly converted from dollars the one I want would cost 81k euros but I assume they will add between 5k and 10k euros to the price for the EU models.�
Jul 18, 2012
Cobos Using the Roadster as a baseline for US to Norwegian prices the Model S should be around 7NOK per USD rounded up to the nearest nice round number. That's the basis for a Model S pricing in Norway.
Using the S7 baseprice WITHOUT any options at all I get 186 000 Euro on the Norwegian price list. That includes VAT and our pigouvian taxes on cars. 99 500 Euro of those 186 000 are just VAT and pigouvian taxes. If you go crazy on the options list you easily add another 20 000 Euro to that.
That's why Model S will sell very well in Norway. Here the Model SP85 will probably be slightly cheaper than the A7 2.8FSI in base trim. And the options on the Model S are a lot cheaper (and there's not so many choices with the Performance version anyway)
Cobos�
Jul 18, 2012
brian45011 SoCalGuy:
You may be failing to distinguish expensed vs capitalized R&D. Since the debut of the Model S debut in April, 2009, Tesla has expensed about $380 million in R&D. Those expenses are part of Tesla's $760 million in accumulated deficit. Since it has previously been expensed, there is no need to amortize it and it will not appear on future income statements. Plant and equipment capitalized costs will be depeciated over their useful life which may be different from the useful life of the vehicle they are first put into service to build.�
Jul 18, 2012
AustinPowers No THAT would be a concept I could live with! Here it is quite the opposite. VAT is 19% no matter what kind of car you buy. A base S7 here costs 79 900 Euro including VAT (there are no other taxes on cars here). Keep in mind that here the "naked" base comes with Xenon Plus headlights with "adaptive light", heated leather/alcantara seats with memory, power rear liftgate, adaptive air suspension as well as Bluetooth interface and AWD (among many other amenities and assistants) as standard - which are mostly Extras on the Model S. When I configured the car with all extras imaginable yesterday it added another 58 000 Euro (as I said, I added ALL options, and if there were several to choose from, I always chose the most exclusive / expensive, something I would never do in real life).
So, if I take a base S7 here, I get a car that is quite a bit better equipped than a P85 Model S, for a much lower price (I am sure the 92 400 dollars the P85 costs (including air suspension and leather/alcantara seats) will translate to roughly the same amount in Euro). That way not many people here will think the P85 Model S will be preferable over an S7. (You can burn a lot of gas for 12 500 Euro, not that most people who can afford such expensive cars seem to care about that anyway).
I thought I read somewhere that (German) automakers sell their cars in Skandinavian countries (where taxes in general seem to be extremely high) at a base price (ex taxes) considerably lower than in countries with lower taxes, as to make the final price not too far apart from other markets. At least as far as high-performance cars like the S7 are concerned, that doesn't seem to be the case, as the Norwegian base price for the S7 ex taxes according to your calculation seems to be 87K Euro, 7K Euro more than here.�
Jul 19, 2012
jkirkebo I'd be surprised if they just use a higher conversion rate for currency when selling to Europe. That way a P85 would have a much larger "EU surcharge" than a S40, and I don't see why they would do that as it would push people towards the cheaper versions with fewer options.
I seriously hope they just add a fixed surcharge for all cars instead (�5k-�10k). The added cost for Tesla to make EU cars and ship them here should be idential for the different versions. This way they'll sell more 85kWh cars and less 40kWh ones, which is what I believe they want.�
Jul 19, 2012
jkirkebo Base price S7 without taxes is actually �86.700 here, but base spec. can vary from country to country I believe. I do not think they are concerned about selling too many of these here�
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét