Aug 6, 2015
bcsteeve The Tesla website has this page: Supercharger | Tesla Motors Canada
I'm sure you're familiar with it. It shows the chargers available now, and in 2015 and 2016. But how accurate do you think this is?
I'm in the upper part of the United States in the area affectionately known as "Canada". I'm over on that left side. As you can see, there aren't many chargers. I noticed they don't have a pin for my town now (and that's true), but they show one there for 2015. One of my biggest reasons for buying the car is to make use of "free" charging. Therefore, one of my biggest hesitations with buying the car is the fact there is no supercharger anywhere near me. Should I expect, based on that map, that there *will* be one this year? Or I should just hope there is? What kind of history do they have coming through with placing them where they say they will?�
Aug 6, 2015
jerry33 Expect six months to one year later than planned. Most of this is due to delays in permitting and/or difficulty in negotiating a site contract.�
Aug 6, 2015
jaguar36 In general they seem reasonably good about getting most of the sites up around when they say they will. But notice all the wiggle words there, I wouldn't count on a specific site being open when they say it will be, as they frequently run into issues they delay sites by a significant amount. Alot of the PA sites have been on the coming soon map for years now.
Also keep in mind that while the superchargers are indeed free (well included in the price really) they aren't intended for day-to day charging, nor is it particularly practical to do so. They should be factored into your purchasing decision based on trips you need to make, but not on the effect of the cost of charging.�
Aug 6, 2015
lolachampcar It is aspirational and should not be used for travel planning. Do keep in mind this is a private company installing world wide electric vehicle fast charging infrastructure on their own dime.�
Aug 6, 2015
jbcarioca True. We all should also be realistic. Superchargers came to reality only in 2012, almost exactly three years ago as I make this post. We have all trained ourselves to expect the impossible from Tesla. That is partly the mystique built up by Elon Musk repeatedly leading people to do impossible things. Now, however, this forum and other places are replete with expectations of continuing impossible achievements as Tesla climbs in production scale. OK, Elon encourages us. However, Superchargers, service centers and stores specifically are different. Local planning, zoning and permitting intervene to make some obvious places difficult (Superchargers: Plantation, FL, Greenville, SC are both good examples. Stores: how about San Antonio, TX? Zoning commission rejects Tesla plan - San Antonio Express-News
IMHO we all should be thrilled with what we have and give a little bit of slack to the Tesla Supercharger team, who are deploying a half dozen new Superchargers every week somewhere in the world. Yes, I desperately want more of them, including at least one that is actually near me in Miami, FL. There are plenty of nearby charging stations, including some Destination chargers and i have my own charger too.
For Canada specifically I wish there were much faster deployment. Looking at the Supercharger planning map it's pretty obvious that tesla is thinking about North-South high traffic locations. Thus we'll end out with Edmonton, a but West coast support and a bit East, but not much trans Canada nor very much within densely populated Provinces either. The fundamentals of Tesla planning are quite obviously driven by expected trip driving density of Tesla vehicles. Personally I think they'll accelerate more in areas where sales volume rises more than they've guessed, in areas where the local rules make it easier and in areas where local authorities ask. The Supercharger team are very accommodating; just ask them how to induce Tesla to open a Supercharger near you more quickly. Get other owners to join forces with you. Enjoy!�
Aug 6, 2015
Max* It's Tesla. Take the time estimate, apply a fudge factor of 17.
But really, it's not accurate at all. It depends on if they can get a site to agree to host the superchargers, get permits, etc. I've been waiting on a few superchargers in PA to populate (2015 map), and even someone got an email from Tesla saying that they expect it to be done by this summer.... There have been no permits pulled yet, so there is exactly 0 chance of that happening.
And chances are, it might not happen in 2015 either.�
Aug 6, 2015
mibaro2 Canada seems to have more hoops for Tesla to jump through than other countries. Probably due to different provincial rules, regulations, etc.�
Aug 6, 2015
ecarfan Perhaps you could clarify: are you saying that your major reason for considering a Tesla is that you want to make trips greater than 250 miles and because there is no Supercharger within 250 miles of you that you are hesitant?
If so, then you should wait until a Supercharger site that you need is under construction.
If the reason you are considering a Tesla is because you want nearby "free" Supercharging for daily or weekly use, then perhaps you could provide information about why charging at your home is not possible. Do you live in a multi-unit dwelling? Something else?
Home charging is incredibly convenient and easy once set up. People who have never owned an EV often fail to appreciate how wonderful home charging is.
Just trying to understand your situation.�
Aug 6, 2015
efusco I'm hoping that it is fairly accurate, given that they've already pushed back prior "future maps" to what it is now and I-44 is a major roadway that has been the victim of the pushback.�
Aug 6, 2015
FlasherZ When supercharging was rolled out, Tesla had a a map that showed "coming soon", "2013", and "2014". "Coming soon" and "2013" were accurate, "2014" was about 50-70% accurate: they made many of them happen, but a good chunk of them just disappeared by the time the end of 2014 came around. They weren't just pushed to 2015, they just... disappeared and were plotted on the 2016 map - example: Mt. Vernon, IL. I'm seeing the same thing with the "2016" map; it seems "2016" is where they dump a dot for anyone who reports a potential location to the Supercharger team. I think you'll see a good chunk of them appear throughout 2016, but I also think you'll see a good chunk of them fall off.
Full disclosure: I'm *still* waiting for the one supercharger required near Paducah, KY to connect St. Louis with the Southeast, instead of forcing us to drive an extra 250 miles each way through Indianapolis, and it bugs the crap out of me, just like Evan is frustrated with the lack of addressing I-44 (I really want that one too, since Branson is a big destination for us).�
Aug 6, 2015
Soolim When you say free charging, do you mean you do not intent on installing a home charger at home? Is there any difficulty in doing that? The supercharger stations are intended for long distance trip, while it is free, it is not meant to replace the home charger. I would love to have Tesla install superchargers in the vicinity of Kelowna, a part of BC I love to visit more often.
That said, the Tesla timeline cannot be relied on. Read up more on many topics (specially on the delays in Autopilot feature of the car) in TMC to understand the pros and cons of owning a Tesla before you spend $100k. Your biggest reason, i.e. free charging, would be the wrong reason to own a Tesla Model S. There would still be cost in home charging, but it is less than 20% when compared to driving an Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicle. It would probably take more than 20 years of normal commute to achieve break-even based on current fuel cost alone.�
Aug 6, 2015
fwgmills Speaking of a gap of industrial proportions...I-20 and I-10 in Texas. Nothing at all. Fortunately I'm still saving my pennies so they should be done by the time I can get a Model X.�
Aug 6, 2015
wk057 If the autopilot fiasco is any indication you definitely shouldn't buy anything from Tesla based on something you want that doesn't actually exist yet... which is sad to say, unfortunately, but true.�
Aug 6, 2015
jaguar36 This seems to be pretty common. I think alot of us have just one or two locations that have been on the map forever and we really need them to get built. Personally the massive PA gap is brutal, we're taking a trip today and will have to go down into Maryland because of it. Hopefully it will get addressed in the near future.�
Aug 6, 2015
mknox I can't say for sure, but I don't really think so. Certainly not from an electrical connection point of view. Supercharger stations are like any regular commercial service, and utilities hook these up every day. I think Canada was initially assigned a very low priority.�
Aug 6, 2015
taurusking My understanding is that 2015 or 2016 Superchargers map is not that predictable...Will those places listed get a supercharger...probably yes but not in the time frame mentioned on Tesla website.�
Aug 6, 2015
m6bigdog You should not purchase a MS anticipating TESLA will support your local charging needs.
I'm not so concerned about the current Supercharger network as I am the rapid continued build-out in a few years.
IMHO, the 2016 map looks pretty good if that becomes reality and I'm hoping 2017/2018 looks even better.
I want to be able to take road trips based on the direct route to the desired destination and not on the available Supercharger route!!
That will make the MS the New Normal!!
Supercharging is a trip enabler topology not a way to provide the user with free local electricity.
Believe me, the Supercharger is much more functional for trip planning than local charging.
Therefore, as a MS owner you want superchargers located +/- 100 miles in the most traveled directions away from your home location so you can jump in your MS (partially charged) at a moments notice and get an in-route charge once you drive out beyond the round trip range of your MS.
Wanting to use a Supercharger for your local charging is other than TESLA's Supercharger network implementation intent and at some point they may limit local Supercharging to the individual owner as an economic and/or strategic necessity.
Also, it is unfortunate that TESLA's website titled the mileage as "Commute" as that infers a round trip to work and/or included the Supercharger in the charging time calculation as that just further confuses those shopping for a TESLA. They could have just as easily titled it "Mileage". However, if we just wait I anticipate that will get changed soon or it will include additional clarification for the Supercharger since it doesn't fit the "calculator's concept" of daily charging routine anyway, since Supercharging is typically a planed in-route multi-charging event rather than end of the day or daily occurrence!!�
Aug 6, 2015
bcsteeve Thanks so much for all your replies.
I admit I was thinking of the supercharger as a potential local charger and I wasn't even going to bother installing a home charger. Obviously I had a logical disconnect there so I'm glad I asked the question, because obviously your experiences tell me my thinking was flawed. I accept that. I was looking at it sort of the same as going out to fill up the gas tank... but free. If I charge at home, obviously, I'm paying for the electricity. So to me it seemed obvious. If you look at it from the point of view that it is coming out of Tesla's pocket... well, it isn't. Not here at least. It is coming out of the taxpayer's pocket, but I'm OK with that. Still, I get that what you're saying is that it isn't practical and that home charging is so much more convenient.
The cost of an empty-to-full charge here is roughly C$9.35. That's roughly 7.2L of fuel at today's prices. If I accept the stated range, that gets me 1.65L/100km equiv and that's pretty fantastic (my current fairly-economical cars are about 7.0 L/100km)
To the person that said we should give Tesla a break and stop expecting the impossible... that is even more flawed logic than mineI'm not expecting or demanding they put a supercharger in my town because I want one there. I expect them to do it because that's what they stated they will do. Doing what you say you're going to do is not "impossible", it is expected good business practice. From a company that has a history of blowing away expectations, to fall short on promises is an extremely avoidable potential disaster from a PR point of view. There's no reason to put a pin on the map if that isn't going to happen. So yes, I expect it and yes I hold them in a somewhat lower regard if they are routinely missing their targets, as it seems they are. Am I saying they should fire Mr. Musk? Of course not... but perhaps wag a finger at whoever is in charge of pinning the map and assigning dates to them. It wouldn't be too hard at all for them to have a different color for "suggested" or "on the radar but not yet approved" or whatever.
�
Aug 6, 2015
jkirkebo Are you implying that Tesla gets free electricity for their SuperChargers in Canada? I've never heard of that happening anywere, so far.�
Aug 6, 2015
SW2Fiddler Yes but they do say... "The map above is a representation of the corridors we plan to enable and the timing thereof. Exact locations and timing may vary."
Note, "corridors" and, maybe more importantly, "plan." (not, "pledge")�
Aug 6, 2015
bcsteeve Maybe not in the rest of Canada, but in BC... yes. And I'm not implying so much as stating�
Aug 6, 2015
ZBB Hello from Southern Alberta (others may know it as "Arizona")...�
Aug 6, 2015
bcsteeve Fair enough. In the end, however, marketing is about perception far more than wording. I'm not an idiot, yet I missed that entirely. Or I saw what I wanted to see. Either way, the perception I got from that page was that there *WILL* be a supercharger in my town in 2015, just as I'm sure those in PA who wrote above perceived they would be getting ones near them. A lawyer can certainly say "we have no liability because we made no explicit promise"... but that's why lawyers aren't in charge of advertising.
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LOL�
Aug 6, 2015
ZBB I don't believe that's true. Coincidentally, the chairman of BC Hydro has been in my Tesla...
Here is BC Hydro's EV charging information page -- talks a lot about ensuring the infrastructure is ready, not about free electricity...
EV Charging infrastructure guidelines�
Aug 6, 2015
Khatsalano It seems that things at Tesla change daily based on new information. That's a great way to run a business, but it also means maps like the "SC to be" you're pointing at are constantly outdated. Sometimes, we are surprised with new locations going live, that were not on that map. Other times, they are hitting the (outdated) plan exactly. Other times, they are behind plan because of constraints.
- K�
Aug 6, 2015
bcsteeve Yeah, you're right... I should do a little research before spouting off and especially before making $100k decisions. I was mostly going by what the guy at the test drive said. I asked him specifically how Tesla can provide the Superchargers for free and he said they have a deal with BC Hydro for free electricity, at least for the time being. I then recall seeing in the news how taxpayers were footing the bill for charging stations. Now that I do a little reading, I see that is for the "majority of" Level 2 chargers. I see now there is an agreed upon charge of $0.35/kWh for DC Fast charging [source].�
Aug 6, 2015
ecarfan As you say, electricity is cheap compared to gasoline. And home charging is far more convenient than going to a Supercharger even if it's just a mile away.
Please realize that Telsa can plan for a Supercharger in a certain area but difficulties with permitting, leasing, rules and regulations often result in delays or a change of location
Really, if you like the car then buy it and charge at home. You won't regret it.�
Aug 6, 2015
Rocky_H @bcsteeve, Quote: �but it has also been on the news that BC Utilities is mandated to provide free electricity to public charging stations for EVs.�
I am still skeptical of that claim, but if so, did it occur to you that these are actually private charging stations, not public ones? They are owned and operated by Tesla and can only be used by their customers. Not sure whether that qualifies as a public charging station.
Anyway, regarding the timing of Superchargers, the route that was most important to where I live and travel was I-84 from the Oregon/Washington area down to Salt Lake City Utah. That was originally on the 2014 map. Then, I think it was near the beginning of 2014, they reworked the maps, removed that route(bumped it to 2015) and put in a bunch of other ones for 2014. I was a little disappointed, but I saw the routes through the middle of the country that they were prioritizing first and actually was very supportive of that, being much more heavily traveled and relatively more important than the one I wanted for myself. That I-84 route is being done now, so they do eventually get to them.
I still agree, though, that Canada has been really neglected for a long time, when a small number of chargers would have been quite a big help.�
Aug 6, 2015
tdelta1000 It's trustworthy enough that Tesla is still spending large sums of capital to build the network worldwide despite what stock analysts are predicting. As Jerry33 said some delays are due to permits.�
Aug 6, 2015
neroden Just like I'm waiting for Erie, PA and others are waiting for Columbia, MO. I think the short list of 'gap-fillers' should be prioritized.�
Aug 6, 2015
TaoJones Expect zero correlation between the 2016 completion forecast and reality. They're well behind schedule, partly because it appears that they've decided to commit to DENSITY as well as DISTANCE (a good thing) but with the same pool of resources (not good).
As as a result, it is still not possible to get from Maine to Key West nor from LA to NYC unless you like detouring through South Dakota. In fairness, we're only 1-2 SCs away from the north-south, and 0-1 SCs away from a middle west-east route (Kansas).
Still doesn't help for the 6 months out of the year that snow tires are necessary/advisable or chains required in certain conditions. As noted, there is a complete wasteland between Tucson and West/Central Texas. Try plotting a course from Florida to San Diego. Go ahead - I'll wait. Note the Ebola virus/shepherd's crook route that you get to take around Texas or thereabouts. That's about a 700-1000-mile detour (round trip), folks.
That said, it's not all bad. In fact, even if the SC network is not "finished" until 2018, it will still represent the most significant distance EV-related achievement (on the road) in human history. In just 5 years. It's phenomenal any way you slice it.
Meanwhile, consider the current state much like a lithium-ion battery; the first 80% (ok, not quite) is done. Now that the low-hanging fruit is out of the way, it will take somewhat longer to secure that last 20% (relative to the first 80%). Happily, part of the slowness does include upgrades to the network itself (thinner cooled cables, more solar).
In in the end, it'll get done when it's done. They will not be finished by the end of 2016 unless more resources are added, and unless some miracles happen with certain permit processes. Some would say it's easier to land a rocket on a floating barge than to light a fire under an entrenched local or regional bureaucracy.�
Aug 7, 2015
mknox Certainly not. Every Supercharger I've been to in Canada or the US has a utility meter installed and someone is paying the bill. In Canada, it is Tesla Motors.�
Aug 7, 2015
Rocky_H
Gah. I really wish people would stop referring to waiting on Columbia, MO to fill a gap. Many people routinely easily drive across Missouri right now. Yes, I know the the 60kwh models can�t do it yet, and in Winter time, it will be needed, but it�s not currently an impassable gap.�
Aug 7, 2015
SeminoleFSU What Tesla has been able to accomplish with regards to the supercharger network is nothing short of amazing.
Having said that though, I'm not sure if supercharge.info has started to decline in terms of up to date info, but my perception is that the super charger build out in the US seems to be slowing.... I definitely do not think the 2015 map is going to be representative of how things will look by the end of this year... This is because Tesla tends to over-promise and under deliver in a lot of ways. They should really work on trying to be more conservative with their promises so they can be sure and meet the expectations they project... A lot of their problems of not meeting expectations of their customers are self-imposed by over promising IMO.
As in example, their 0-60 times were slower than what the actual performance of the cars were, which to me is how things should be done... if they approached the supercharger and battery swap rollout in this manner people would be a lot less disappointed and actually pleasantly surprised when they exceeded those promises/expectations.
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The same goes for autopilot, the powerwall, and countless other things.... still love my car... but Tesla needs to be more careful what they promise so they don't have to renege on so many things�
Aug 7, 2015
Brass Guy I remember the Sturbridge MA supercharger. It was "coming soon" before I purchased, and at the time I thought it was going to be key to my use. It remained "coming soon" well after I took delivery, and I got nervous. Eventually the pin completely disappeared from the map. Luckily some plans changed and I did not require that SC.
Later, Auburn was built instead.
My point is you cannot rely on that map for any specific locations. Until there is construction, don't count on it. I rely only on supercharge.info for specific "coming soon" superchargers. Tesla's map is just what they say, their plan for travel corridors.
BTW, you can't actually count on one after construction starts. Ex.: Sagamore was complete for several months before being powered up. Not entirely Tesla's fault either.�
Aug 8, 2015
SW2Fiddler How trustworthy is Tesla's predicted "2015, 2016" supercharger map?
This is how I see it, too. I was stalking (not in need of, just normal fanaticism if that makes ANY sense) the Coming Soon pin around Baytown TX until it suddenly became the 95% complete North Houston gallery/service center/24-7 TesLounge Supercharger. Not even on the same highway but it is kind of "in the corridor" if you really need it for East-West or West-East travel...�
Aug 8, 2015
sitter_k Undersell, under promise over deliver everyone is not only satisfied they're down right giddy. It would be more of the "Wow Tesla does it again! This is why they're different!" rather than what we're used to these days, the jokes about "Tesla Time" and prize giveaways for guessing how long autopilot will be delayed for, Sadly it seems the modus operandi is now over promise under deliver and expect delays on delayed timelines.�
Aug 9, 2015
emir-t Any Europeans in this thread? Western and Northern Europe SC network is amazing even today but 2015 shows Eastern European expansion and at the very end is Istanbul Supercharger. With the Istanbul SC I expect first store + service centre to be opened up so I can finally buy the car I've been dreaming of. However, 4 months left till the end of 2015, still no Istanbul supercharger work visible nor any expansions towards Eastern Europe. Seems like they are focusing on Italy and Spain nowadays, i.e. southern Europe.
Heck 2016 shows 9 SC for Turkey alone, they are obviously aware of the potential Turkey has. We have even higher ICE taxes than Norway so Teslas will sell like hotcakes here. However, as of today, you can't even buy one. They don't deliver to Turkey as it is not EU and there obviously aren't any service centres. So if you get a dead 12V battery, or get involved in an accident and if you have imported on your own means, you're screwed.
So far they've had 3 senior job applications posed for Istanbul but I would have loved to estimate a time frame. Any other Europeans here that have went through the same processes and knows how things go, where I should check etc?
Thanks in advance for the replies. This 3+ years of waiting couldn't end sooner...�
Aug 9, 2015
rapoport3a That latter route isn't awfully direct, but it's not that bad. Try Kansas. Meanwhile, driving from the northeast to southern Texas isn't good. Let me know what you see between Nashville and SE Texas, or in West Virginia�other than nothing. Not too interested in detouring along the Gulf coast or going through---you guessed it---Kansas.�
Aug 9, 2015
jerry33 US-40 would work just fine. No need to go through Kansas. Just use the destination chargers for the two gaps.�
Aug 9, 2015
wk057 You're talking about adding at least a full day travel time...
Personally, the supercharger network build out was sufficient for the trips I regularly made back in late 2013 when I bought my P85.
Lately there have been some trips come up where the network just isn't there and I've been forced to utilize alternative transportation (flying, ICE rentals), which is disappointing. I had figured Tesla would have at least had all of the dots from the old 2014 map done by now, but they don't.
(March 2014 copy of "2014" map from TeslaMotors.com)
Maybe in terms of count they may have caught up with this by now, but they've skipped a bunch in the south-east that I've been waiting on.
Edit:
Oh, and lets not forget what the "2015" map looked like 18 months ago:
�
Aug 9, 2015
travwill I sure hope the close the huge gaps around Arkansas/Missouri/Mississippi/Tennessee areas. Right now to drive from Chicago to Houston where family is would route us anywhere from 400-1000 extra miles due to lake of superchargers along the most direct highway routes.�
Aug 9, 2015
iadbound I hope that Tesla is never "finished" building out the Supercharger system. As the number of Teslas on the road increases, the need for more Supercharging locations will grow and current locations will probably need to be expanded too. I don't really know what the ideal number of supercharging locations would be, but I expect that it is far more than Tesla has scheduled for now (even if Tesla did complete the 2015 and 2016 maps shown on the website today).�
Aug 9, 2015
TaoJones Agreed - hence the quotes. In this context, "finished" reflects only the wishful thinking in the yearly wishcasts, which, near as I can tell, were not updated to reflect the new commitment to density as well as distance.
It's a delicate balance, without additional resources and in the face of greater effort (time alone, if not expertise) required to move intransigent bureaucracies, to fill the gaps that need to be filled for realistic transcontinental travel to happen.
What's not realistic is expecting people to embrace 700-mile detours and extra nights of lodging without experiencing all sorts of pushback in the domestic harmony department.�
Aug 10, 2015
iadbound Dead on!! Frankly, I'm not looking to make a 700-mile detour when driving by myself. I already made a much smaller detour, roughly 70 miles, three times this summer (same trip each time) and concluded that it was workable but irritating, especially since the longer route required using I-95 and the New Jersey Turnpike.�
Aug 10, 2015
jaguar36 If only that March 2014 map was true, woulda saved me a few hours driving to Pittsburgh and back this weekend.
Still, we were able to make the trip quite easily with no range anxiety at all. Plus not once did we have to wait for the car, it was always done charging before we were ready to leave.�
Aug 10, 2015
FlasherZ I'd happily do 70 miles more without an issue. 700 is a "no way" scenario for me.
Re-routing through Indianapolis for the St. Louis to Florida route was 225 extra miles and 3 extra SC stops each way, but we made it in roughly the same amount of absolute time by driving a bit later into the night, and leaving earlier in the morning, along with eating at less healthy places. Only 1 more SC is required to eliminate 225 extra miles and about 1 1/2 hours of charging each way.�
Aug 10, 2015
wk057 Currently I have a trip planned that is +170 miles, due to lack of superchargers on I-77. The only reason I'm bothering is because I'm not heading back in that direction and instead heading back towards the east coast when I'm done at the first stop, then the rest is easy.�
Aug 10, 2015
BerTX Am I the only not-yet-a-Tesla-owner who is befuddled by all of this boo-hooing about having to drive your dream car extra miles, for free? At what point in ownership does driving a Tesla become such a miserable chore? :wink:�
Aug 10, 2015
jaguar36 That seems like a time to rent a ICE instead. I dislike the double whammy that not only do you have to go farther and take longer going out of your way, but then you also have to spend extra time charging to make up for it as well.
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Its not free, it costs you 3-4 hours, plus 170 miles of wear and tear on the car.�
Aug 10, 2015
mmccord
What route did you take? I drive NY <> Pittsburgh regularly.�
Aug 10, 2015
TaoJones Boo-hooing, eh? Let's see if we can remove some of that befuddlement:
Being stuck at a level 2 charger in Podunk while paying for overpriced, substandard lodging and food because Tesla can't meet its own targets is not driving the car.
Adding wear and tear and wasting time and incurring additional risk by having to drive through Tornado Alley or worse, the Bible Belt (I kid, I kid) because, for example, little to no progress has been made toward southwestern I-10 SCs is not driving the car in a feasible manner.
By the time you are an owner (good choice, btw), you will find that *driving* the car is the best part about owning a Tesla.
Dealing with the chronic disconnects between what's communicated/not communicated and reality is *not* the best part about owning a Tesla - whether for SCs/lack of consistent SC progress, service inconsistencies, communication disconnects, ESA per-issue fees, B pillar/headliner failures, or any number of other generally unnecessary but frustrating details that in the end cost owners time and money.
This SC stuff is just one straw
Driving the car is what makes any of the above even vaguely tolerable. But free? Noooooo. Light several $100 bills on fire per week* to play in this arena. *Then* it's free
* Caveat being the stellar opportunities that will be available "soon" via CPO cars. For example, in 2-3 years, some of the higher mileage Ludicrous-equipped cars will be available for $35K +/-. That's 0-60mph in 2.8s for the price of a (insert nasty ICE vehicle here)!!! And by then (bonus), most of this kvetching about SCs should have shifted from buildout malaise to usage malaise. That will be so much better
The future is bright, by any measure. But right now, contrary to what one has been led to believe via the SC progress maps, it may take an extra few days yet to make that round trip. No big deal for retirees or single people, maybe.
Driving the car is great. Explaining the delays referenced above to the wife, who will note several times that she only has so many vacation days and that the SC maps seemed much more complete when deciding to buy the car, or explaining not for the first time that we're not there yet to a small child... yeah, not so much.�
Aug 10, 2015
jaguar36 Except for the fact that those used cars are looking like they will be requiring thousands of dollars a year in maintenance.
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We're outside of Philly so I went down through Maryland. Added an hour or so each way of driving, plus another half hour or so of charing, plus a half hour or so of traffic :-/�
Aug 10, 2015
mmccord
There is a chademo charger at the sheetz @ 4001 Union Deposit Road, Harrisburg, PA 17109 . ~20 minutes ($4) there should get you to somerset if you left the Trenton/Philly area with a full charge. Of course, the adapter is $450 if you don't already own one...
I make cross-PA trips enough that the adapter is a must-have for me.�
Aug 10, 2015
bcsteeve I haven't kept up with this thread I started (some reason didn't get notifications so I thought it died).
TaoJones makes some points that has me confirming that I'll probably be cancelling my reservation in the next couple days. I don't know what, "ESA per-issue fees" means but it can't be good. I was so excited to get one... but I think the writing is on the wall and it is too soon for me. For this kind of money, I really need the perfection I thought this car and company represented, on paper at least.
This particular topic has little to do with the decision. Its all the other things I've been reading about. While I completely misunderstood the charging regime (home vs "local" vs travel), I accept the reality and I'm fine with it and the progress being made on the SC locations.
Maybe some day.�
Aug 10, 2015
MorrisonHiker I believe he was referring to the per-issue fees of $200 each (in the U.S.) for any issue during the Extended Service Agreement (ESA). Of course the ESA itself costs $4000.�
Aug 10, 2015
jaguar36 Yep, not worth it for us to buy the adapter. I had hoped to borrow one for the trip, but couldn't find anyone around who had one to lend.
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The charging really shouldn't be a deterrent, particularly with the ridiculously fast rate with which Tesla has been setting up locations.
The service and repair issue is significant, but determining how many issues a car has (and more importantly how many a new car with all the latest fixes will have) is a very difficult task. Trying to determine product reliability from a forum is a fools errand as only the people with issues will post. However it does seem like Tesla is at least aware of the issue and trying at some level to remedy it (evidence being the recent price drop in repair parts).
The car, nor the company is not perfect, and the most important thing to realize is that what Elon says does not necessarily have anything to do with how the company operates. Once you understand that, its a fantastic car, if it ends up cost a couple extra bucks for service, its still worth it.�
Aug 10, 2015
Sosius Truth!�
Aug 10, 2015
jerry33 I've had my Model S for 2.5 years and 55K miles. When I first got it there were only two SCs, and those were in California, which is halfway across the continent. I used RV parks for long distance trips and had no problems--it's only been in the past year that I could use SCs for my most common trip, and less than that to use only SCs on my normal trips. Just a couple of weeks ago we did a vacation trip from DFW to the Seattle area. The most direct route hadn't been completed so it was about 300 miles extra each way--about 10% longer. Of course, it will be nice when every route is covered, and there are some places where RV parks and destination chargers are the only options, but it was a good experience 2.5 years ago and it's a great experience now.
One thing about this forum (and every other automotive forum I've been on) is that folks get real emotional if what they want wasn't available yesterday. You can find many old threads that show this. In general Tesla does the right thing, but not as quickly as everyone would like and occasionally they need a bit of prodding. As far as I know, the only things they haven't come through on are an API for third party Apps, and lighted vanity mirrors.�
Aug 10, 2015
pedriscoll Overall the progress in building out the supercharger network has been remarkable. I just wish there was a SC on I-65 between Indianapolis and Nashville, about a 300 mile stretch. Louisville is listed on the 2015 map but I have seen not progress in that area. My daughter lives in Louisville and the 280 mile round trip is outside my 85D's range. A SC in L'ville would make our trips to see the grandkids much easier.�
Aug 10, 2015
Andyw2100 I don't know if this would have helped or not, but I'm wondering if you know about this thread:
CHAdeMO Adapter Sharing ZeeMap
It is set up to facilitate the lending of CHAdeMO adapters, and I think relatively few people even know it exists.�
Aug 11, 2015
jaguar36 Yep, sadly there are only about 10 people on it.�
Aug 11, 2015
Andyw2100 I think that's because it's still very new, and very few people know about the program. I'm sure as word spreads and people find out about the possibility, that number will grow quickly.�
Aug 13, 2015
Shaggy
Wait, so you can get out of and back into Texas?�
Aug 13, 2015
SeminoleFSU This. My perception is Tesla seems to be slowing the rate at which the SpC network expands... if true, that's probably a bad omen.�
Aug 13, 2015
vinnie97 I see prioritization m'self and removal of routes with which I might not necessarily agree (hoping they return in the coming years).�
Aug 14, 2015
TaoJones Thanks for the visual confirmation of what we've suspected in spite of the happyspeak to the contrary.
This is one of the most disappointing aspects of ownership. And I'm being kind. Missing a forecast once is bad luck. Missing it consistently means it's probably time for team leadership changes. As an example, the southwestern region 2015 forecast compared to reality is just absolute and complete fiction.
Once again, plans do change. Communicate the chances lest the absence of that communication be perceived as arrogance, incompetence, or both.�
Aug 14, 2015
jerry33 1. Tesla has never been all that good about maintaining their website, except perhaps for price changes.
2. Much of the delay is either because of property owner negotiations or permitting delays (Denton has been in permitting 277 days and counting, although it appears to be very close. Tesla really can't be blamed for that.)
3. The map shows where they would like to be. Even if they were 100% on schedule it would still seem to slow for many folks. (No plan survives the actual battle.)
4. If they only showed half of what they did, they would probably only be a quarter of what has been accomplished. People who haven't seen the plan, are amazed that they have done as much as they have in 2.5 years.
5. Of course, everyone would like them to speed up, but I suspect as they get closer to completing the selected locations, the slower the process will become (usually the easy ones are completed first).�
Aug 14, 2015
MichFin If you look at the rate of build out you can see around a dozen or so being constructed at any given time and they take about 4 months to complete so that's about 36+ a year. Then you look at the map between now and 2015 with just 4 more months and you see at least 50+ that need to be built out in 4 months. No way that's happening.�
Aug 23, 2015
wk057 And that's going by today's 2015 map. I'd be absolutely THRILLED about the supercharger network if they were anywhere close to the original "End of 2015" map by the end of 2015. But that would mean hundreds of stations to be built in the next 132 days, which we all know isn't happening. I like how the map was basically pushed out a year without a word (old 2015 map is mostly the new 2016 map). And now at the end of 2015 they won't be near their current 2015 map, and the 2016 map will become that plus some from the current 2016 map, and we'll have a new 2017 map that will look like the original 2015 map.
Everyone follow that? lol
So at that rate it looks like we'll see something close to the original 2015 map by maybe the end of 2019.�
Nov 10, 2015
mspisars Perception is one thing, reality can be different go to supercharge.info (if the charts don't load, you will have to click the "Charts" link in the top right corner of the site)
The trend is similar "enough" to last year, just a little smoother.
Edit: and those are not "Tesla supplied" charts but the reality of the situation.�
Nov 10, 2015
Cottonwood For some perspective, repeated from Tesla Supercharger network - Page 684:
With the opening of Greenville, SC, Tesla has opened 100 Supercharger Sites in North America this year. With 1.7 months left in 2015, this puts the rate of openings this year a little ahead of last year (2014) that had 102 North American Openings.
Source: Supercharge.Info�
Nov 10, 2015
mikeash Checking out the numbers, at this time last year, Tesla had opened 79 new supercharger locations in North America in 2014. In 2015, they've opened 100 new locations. In Europe, they opened 71 by this time last year, and 75 so far this year. Worldwide, 182 new ones by this time last year, 223 so far in 2015.�
Nov 10, 2015
hiroshiy http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/images/supercharger/maps/2015-asia.jpg
Tesla promised 21 Superchargers by the end of 2015. So far we've got only six (was seven, but they removed one).�
Nov 10, 2015
hybridbear This is one of our concerns in considering buying a CPO Model S next fall. The Model S would be our only car, so the SuperCharger corridor from Mpls to Winnipeg is a requirement. Likewise with being able to get south to California via Kansas. We like to do road trips to SoCal in the winter & it's too difficult to drive through SD & Denver due to snow issues. I'll be watching the build out of Superchargers over the next year. If there aren't Superchargers to get to Winnipeg (where my wife's family lives) there's no way I could convince her to agree to a Tesla...
I agree with the commenters that what they've accomplished thus far in building the network is quite impressive. I hope that they can continue to gradually increase the rate at which they build the SCs.�
Nov 14, 2015
wk057 
Difference map between today's supercharger map and the coming in 2015 supercharger map. (Open in red, unopened promised for 2015 in black)
I counted about 70 unopened stations in the USA, plus 8 or so in Canada. 47 days remaining in 2015, including major holidays.
According to supercharge.info, Tesla has opened exactly 100 stations in North America in 2015. That's a station open every 3.18 days. For comparison, in 2014 they opened 102 stations, which is a station roughly every 3.5 days. So, they've sped up station opening in 2015 in North America a little if they maintain this rate (honestly, I don't care much about progress in other regions).
However, even maintaining the current rate, that'll only be 14 or 15 stations open of the 70+ remaining on the 2015 map. Definitely not going to happen.
Keep in mind, again, that in mid-2014 and prior, Tesla's 2015 map basically had the entire country covered in superchargers with just a couple of routes notably missing (see my post a little ways up in this thread where I attached that map).
So, honestly... I don't put much faith in the supercharger time tables Tesla advertises. At this point we're still missing stations that were supposed to be open at the end of 2014, let alone ones that were originally supposed to be open at the end of 2015. They've already pushed that back to the end of 2016. I'm sure sometime in the next 6 months we'll have a 2017 map that will show the missing ones.
If a supercharger route is important to you, I'd definitely suggest waiting until it's actually built before buying a Tesla. The superchargers are great, and I wouldn't own a Model S without them. Long distance EV travel without the superchargers is way more trouble and way more stressful than it's worth. I definitely put some faith into their estimates on when some routes would be available and have been burned on a few so far. In their defense, they've added routes to their coming soon maps that I originally thought wouldn't be available at all, so that's a plus... but they still don't exist, so, not helping me yet.
Anyway, just figured I'd throw this out there that they've once again overestimated the supercharger roll out. Great job keeping it going, just terrible with time tables as is typical Tesla.�
Nov 14, 2015
bonnie wk, does this also take into account the new locations that weren't promised and/or the locations that were expanded?�
Nov 14, 2015
Tedkidd Good point Bonnie. There were some unexpected drop ins. Rochester was added to the list sometime this year, and I think Utica was half built before being added.
Wish they'd put a service center in Roch instead. We don't really need a SC here. South, like Corning, would be better. North central PA is a desert.
Erie is critical for Boston-Chicago completion.�
Nov 14, 2015
wk057 It's literally just using the images from teslamotors.com for their current map and their 2015 map and some Photoshop layer shenanigans to get the differences to show in another color. In this case the pins that are on the 2015 map and not on the current map show in black-ish.�
Nov 14, 2015
Andyw2100 So it sounds like, if you were so inclined, you could highlight what Bonnie was asking about by addding a third color and turning some of the chargers that are now red on your map, to green, to indicate that they are active, but weren't on the 2015 map, right? The green pins would be SCs that show on the Tesla current map but not the Tesla 2015 map.
I'm not suggesting that you need to do this, but just trying to make sure that I and others understand everything.
Edit: This would not account for expansions, of course, but would account for newly opened sites that were not on the 2015 map.
Edit 2: Re-reading some of the posts, I see a logistical issue with my post. The only way my post is correct is if either a) Tesla made no additions to the 2015 map between the time they published it, and the time wk057 took a copy of it to use for comparison, or b) if wk057 were to use a 2015 map as originally published, as opposed to one Tesla kept updating with new openings.�
Nov 14, 2015
wk057 Yeah, I don't see any pins on the current map that aren't on the 2015 map. I'll have to see if I have an older 2015 copy saved anywhere, or if anyone else does.
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I found a copy of the 2015 map from April '15. They changed their rendering method a bit (pins are all shifted), but I see 4 pins that are on the 2015 now that were not on the 2015 map then.
One in each of these states: California, Oregon, Utah, and Massachusetts.�
Nov 15, 2015
jerry33 Between Minneapolis and Winnipeg there is the Old Mill State Park RV park (River Falls, MN) which has 50 amp chargers according to rvparking.com. This should be the only charging you need between Winnipeg and Baxter. Before SCs were available we did lots of RV park charging. You'll want to verify this information by contacting the park.�
Nov 15, 2015
bonnie I think if you use the Way Back Machine, you'll see that there are many, many more locations that were not originally identified. The Supercharger locations have always been fluid, with locations modified based on where there was more need. Also should mention that the Destination Charging program was added onto the program, which is also providing electrons to travelers.
It's hard to say they've overestimated how much they can do when I look at where we were and where we are. I think that the Supercharging Team has been steamrolling their way across continents and doing an amazing job.
But. I agree that IF someone absolutely needs a future Supercharger and is basing a purchase on a specific location, then they should wait. Tesla says it right on the Supercharger map page: "The map above is a representation of the corridors we plan to enable and the timing thereof. Exact locations and timing may vary."�
Nov 15, 2015
wk057 There were definitely a lot of changes from the old 2015 map to the current one, but there were also quite a few pushed to the 2016 map.
I think the way back machine was broken for the supercharger maps since Tesla switched to pins instead of dots. Would be difficult to automatically do a difference map between the pins and dots versions, and I'm definitely not wasting time doing that manually.
I definitely agree things have come a long way. Again, without the supercharger network I wouldn't, and I couldn't have a Model S as my primary vehicle, so I probably wouldn't own one at all.�
Nov 17, 2015
Brass Guy I didn't spend too much time on it, so it's not exactly lined up and clean. From supercharge.info, the green are active, red-ish are the permits. Overlayed on the 2014 projection map wk057 posted above, where the red circles are the projected routes.
There are some obvious missing routes, like on I80, I94, TX, AR, ME and PA.
Also it looks like CA got about 2x as many stations as planned, FL and a few other states got more too.
It certainly would have been better if they could have dotted in the planned routes before fleshing the existing ones. As far as routes go, it looks about a year behind.�
Nov 17, 2015
FlasherZ I think they've done reasonably well with the 2015 map.
Tesla seems to do a semi-yearly refresh of the map. They hit the 2013 targets pretty reasonably, but 2014 was a "wish-list" map until late 2014 when they refreshed it to drop a good chunk of it and set up 2015 and 2016. So now, 2015 is a pretty reasonable projection while 2016 is the "wish-list" dumping ground until late next year, when it'll be revised to reality and pushed out as the 2017/2018 map.�
Nov 17, 2015
ScepticMatt First 2015 map posted in 2015 (January 8th)
�
Nov 17, 2015
Max* In short, A LOT is missing and Tesla's map is optimistic.
Several missing along I-81 in VA, at least 4 in PA (not counting the 2 that finally got permitted, which may be done by the end of 2015...), tons in Mississippi and Louisiana, several in Maine (though 1 out of the about 3, is permitted, and may happen by the end of 2015), several in Texas along the gulf, etc. etc. etc.�
Nov 17, 2015
Andyw2100 My take on all this is two main points:
--Tesla has generally done a really good job of expanding the supercharger network, and for the most part has built it out about as fast or faster than expected / promised, with perhaps some small hiccups. But generally people are pleased with the number of superchargers being built.
--Tesla has not done as good a job with respect to accurately predicting where these supercharges will be built and when. People therefore should not rely on the future maps for planning purposes, because the future sites they are counting on may not be built when Tesla is predicting they will be built. The future maps could use bigger and bolder disclaimers explaining this.
Is that a fair summary?�
Nov 17, 2015
bonnie The bolded part is the only thing I take exception with. The Supercharger map says clearly that the locations/dates are approximate and could change. If they were saying 'This IS where each Spc will be placed', I'd agree with you. But they don't say that, they clearly don't say that. And sometimes they do more, sometimes less, sometimes one town over, sometimes right where the map indicates.�
Nov 17, 2015
Max* That's a good summary. Tesla has a precision and punctuality problem
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If you overlay the SpC map posted above with supercharge.info and make the scales the same, the locations are almost spot on (minus the missing superchargers).�
Nov 17, 2015
Andyw2100 That's fair.
I tried to get that point across in the last sentence about bigger disclaimers. Because while I understand what you are saying, I'm not sure that most people, when looking at the maps, necessarily realize the plans aren't more firm than they are, either because they never find the text that explains it, or because they discount that text, or for some other reason. I guess I'm saying Tesla just needs to make that point more clear, so people don't have a reason to be disappointed when one particular supercharger doesn't materialize.
It again boils down to a communications issue.�
Nov 17, 2015
Canuck Hey bcsteve,
Here's the latest picture of Kelowna:
Western Canada Superchargers - Page 108
and it looks done except that Fortis needs to install the power. So it certainly appears to me Tesla met their own self-imposed deadline. However, I better not see you at this site when I travel through... this is for travel only and that's not from your home to the mall...
You will find a lot of naysayers here, complaining about delays, like the autopilot delay, etc. etc. but I have never owned a car that I have liked more than my Tesla. I look forward to driving it every day. No business is perfect, and that's especially true in the car manufacturing business, so don't expect perfection from Tesla. Deadlines will be missed. But many of those who have autopilot say it was well worth the wait. Others continue to complain. Tesla may not do it as fast as people like but they do it right, the vast majority of the time, at least in my opinion.�
Nov 17, 2015
jerry33 ^^^^ This. In addition so much is out of Tesla's control: Site negotiation, permitting, utility infrastructure, and to a certain extent contractors, that the best they can do is to make a SWAG.�
Nov 18, 2015
Cottonwood Thanks for the great work, but it looks like Tesla created a new 2015 map today.
See Tesla Supercharger Page for the new maps. The 2015 map in full resolution is at Full Resolution Tesla 2015 Map, and below is a cropped version of that map. Many Supercharger Sites deleted, but many remaining.
My first observations are that Denver, a Colorado Springs doublet, Jackson, MS, and the mythical Slidell, LA are on this map.
Thoughts? Can all the new ones happen in 1.5 months?
�
Nov 18, 2015
FlasherZ My guess is that's the length of time it will take to get the permits alone, unless that's been done.�
Nov 18, 2015
mmccord * sigh *... Rt 80 in PA gets pushed back... Again�
Nov 18, 2015
S'toon Is the disclaimer "The map above is a representation of the corridors we plan to enable and the timing thereof. Exact locations and timing may vary." new? I seem to recall seeing it there before.�
Nov 18, 2015
TexasEV Slidell isn't mythical. The location has been confirmed as Fremaux Town Center.
I'm curious about the Austin, TX area on this map. It looks like there is another icon mostly hidden underneath San Marcos and another icon to the northwest of Austin. I have no idea what the hidden one might be. The one to the northwest of Austin could be the new service center, which will be in northwest Austin but not that far out. Both of these new 2015 icons are still missing from the 2016 map. Other than Victoria, the route to south Texas has been pushed to 2016. I'm not surprised.�
Nov 18, 2015
jerry33 Come on guys and gals, it's the middle of November. There are effectively three working weeks left in the year. They will be doing good to finish the eight they have under construction by then. I suspect they have the sites contracted subject to a successful permit application. I'm looking forward to the one in Lindale, TX.�
Nov 18, 2015
brkaus How trustworthy is Tesla's predicted "2015, 2016" supercharger map?
On the Tesla page, the Austin pin is there on 2015 but gone on 2016. I'm wondering if it was something on the west end out of town... cut across 290 out to I-10 instead of going south through San Antonio.
If so, and it happens, I'm done waiting for the next revision and I'll just buy now.�
Nov 19, 2015
jaguar36 Huh, that map has one in between DC and Baltimore, and the Harrisburg, PA one, as well as the two permited in PA (Allentown and Tannersville) on it. That's great news!�
Nov 19, 2015
Cottonwood It looks like the Supercharger Page is back to the old 2015 map: http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/images/supercharger/maps/2015-northamerica.jpg?20151119
The link for the in-between, goofy map from yesterday is still live at http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/images/supercharger/maps/2015-northamerica.jpg?201511182
Very confusing...�
Dec 31, 2015
vitaliy Are we going to get 2017 supercharger's map tomorrow? In other words, did they add 2016 map on January 1st, 2015?�
Dec 31, 2015
ScepticMatt Well I've got a 2016 map from January 4th, 2015.�
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