Feb 18, 2015
breser I picked up my 85D today. I had a September 2014 built S85 before this (swapped stalks but no autopilot). So my reference point is going to be a fairly recent car. I put ~2600 miles on the car before I traded it for this 85D (had the car for 2 months but last month it sat while I worked out the trade). I have driven a P85 once back in January 2014 but it's been a long time. I have not driven a P85D and would rather never drive one since I know I'd probably want it. I don't feel I can justify the $20k extra expense for the launch fun. With my perspective framed let's get into my impressions.
What's changed?
Not a whole lot. What I've noticed isn't really huge news to anyone following the forum.
- Frunk is smaller. But my airline carry on still fits with a little bit of room around it. Same as a P85D.
- No more double latch on frunk. There is no manual release under the glovebox anymore. I had heard about this and asked about it and the tech that was handy insisted that it was still there. He went to look for it and realized I was right. Had no idea what you're supposed to do to gain access to the Frunk if the battery is dead. I assume there is some plan for this and I want to find out to be prepared for the dreaded 12V battery failures that people have. Same as a P85D.
- Auto-closing charge port. This charge port door is no longer held shut with a magnet and is trivial to force open now. I don't think this is a huge deal. Overall I'm happy with this because I was always forgetting to close it. Same as a P85D.
- Model S metal insert on the kick plate of drivers and passengers front doors. This is a nice touch but I'd think it should be on back doors as well. All vehicles are getting this not just Ds, but my old one didn't have it.
- Yacht Floor is standard. Didn't order it but it's in the car. Not excited by it since I expect it to get scratched but I believe this is just velcroed down. All vehicles are getting this not just Ds.
- 6.1 firmware. Lots of changes here, not going into detail. Car came with 2.2.140.
- Smaller airbag stickers on visors. There is now a very tiny sticker on the exterior of the visor telling you that there is safety info on the other side. The other sticker is still much smaller than the old stickers. The stickers don't look out of place. Huge improvement. All vehicles are getting this.
- Warmer interior lighting. The interior LEDs are now a warmer color. More of a natural light color. I rather liked the old color but this does feel more right. All vehicles are getting this.
- Taller headrests on rear seats. The outside seats are much taller, the middle seat only slightly. It does decrease some viewing area out of the rear but I don't think it's a problem. I would have preferred the old size since I rarely use the rear seats, but not a big deal. Not worth driving around with the rear seats folded. All cars are getting this.
- Latch points for child seats now have an IsoFix logo on the buttons. Could have done without this change, but I can understand why they did this. Given the number of people I've seen asking about how many latch points there are and where. I presume this is all cars, haven't seen anyone talk about this.
- Tow Hook Included. I don't know if I had one and it was installed or I just didn't have one on the last car but there was a tow hook in my trunk this time.
- Bosch Windshield Wipers. The wipers say Bosch on them now. Old car didn't. Old wipers were terrible. Wasn't raining so remains to be seen if these are better. But I sure hope so. Edit: Raining today (2/19) and yes the wipers do work better.
Photos
Posted an album of photos to imgur. I'll be uploading some more later today when I take them. Random note, the after delivery photos are in Issaquah just down the street from where the Model S crashed into the bank this weekend. I was really tempted to do these photos in front of that bank but decided I didn't want to frighten the staff.
Tesla Model S 85D - Album on Imgur
Driving Experience
I'm sure a lot of people really want to hear this bit. The car is supposedly faster but I'm not sure if I can tell or not. The S85 felt pretty quick to me and it's been a rather long time since I drove a P85. My gut tells me this isn't a hidden replacement for the P85. However, put this thing on a curvy road and it's going to destroy a S85 and probably a P85. Like people said about the P85D this thing drives like it's on rails. It does what you tell it to do. My S85 I had some uncomfortable moments in various places where I'd hit the gas a little too hard on a turn and it'd want to keep going wherever the car was pointed. That just doesn't happen with this thing. I haven't had a ton of time or opportunity to push this car but I'm am very glad I got paid the $4k for the D. I said the other night I'm not sure if I'd have paid $5k. I can say that if I'd driven them and compared I'm pretty sure I would just pay the $5k.
Regen
I don't see any perceptible increase in regen. But I haven't been staring at the regen meter and trying to gauge it. There might be since I haven't felt like I needed the brake when I didn't want to use it but that may just be me not caring about trying to hit optimal efficiency right now.
Range/Efficiency
Too early to tell if it's really much better than the S85. I did about 330 Wh/mile today on my normal routine, including some spirited driving. When my S85 was new I was doing around 350-400 Wh/mile. Some of that might just me being more comfortable with how to drive the car though. I did use TACC a fair amount today. I'd guess it's probably not as efficient as me but I was always frustrated by traffic in my S85 because I wanted to be as efficient as possible and traffic made me micro-manage the accelerator pedal. TACC made me not care.
When I picked up the car it wasn't charged all the way. But after charging it tonight to 80% the car got to 215. Which puts it at 268.75 at 100%. A tad under 270, though I haven't done a range charge so I don't know if that'll hold. The window sticker matches the EPA website with 100 MPGe combined, 95 city, 106 highway, 34 kW-hrs per 100 miles, and 270 miles of range.
Edit: I'm not entirely convinced of a huge difference in efficiency range after today. It's raining today and I'm seeing Wh/mile back in the 350-400 range. Yesterday it wasn't raining, but when I picked up the S85 it was. It's going to take more time to see how much of a difference this is.
Noise
There have been a lot of discussions about if P85Ds are louder than their RWD cousins. With varying opinions, but the consensus seems to be that it depends on the car. In my car I don't think it's louder or quieter. It's just flat out different. My S85 had the balloon noise under acceleration. The 85D has its own noise, my fianc�e describes it as a very quiet jet engine starting up. The 85D noise is much lower in pitch and personally less bothersome. But I don't think it's quieter. The points that it makes noise is also a tad different. The balloon noise only happened under heavy acceleration. The 85D noise happens under pretty much any acceleration up until you get to speed. The balloon noise seemed to come from the center of the car, but the 85D noise comes from the front. My initial impression is that the noise sounds good. You're not likely to notice it with music on. But it just feels right to me.
Autopilot Features
Love them. I touched on TACC a bit above. I don't find them annoying. There's enough configuration to make them useful without being a pain. Glad I upgraded to get the sensors. But I can understand why some wouldn't like them.
Auto-high beams are pretty cool. I live in a fairly rural area with Elk, but I would be lazy most of the time and not use my high beams.
Cloth vs Black Alcantara Headliner
I didn't think I'd like the suede look but wanted black since I thought the tan was bad with my grey seats. I've seen it on other cars but it's one thing to drive around in a car with it for a while and another to just see it. Glad I did it. Looks much better. It does make the cabin feel a little smaller and darker, but I think the aesthetics are worth it.
D Badging
The D on the 85D on the back of the car is painted black. It's a tad weird that the software in the car has it in red. But personally I like the understated badging. So it's fine with me. Painting it black gives it a little extra weight without making it stand out like the P85D badging does.
Delivery Experience Thoughts
This is more an individual thing and not about the car. My delivery is fairly early for the 85D and my car had an issue with the rear drive unit. This actually delayed my delivery by a week while the service center worked to get parts that they didn't have yet. The service center did everything they could to get this handled as quickly as possible. Monday being a holiday didn't help.
My delivery was rather informal. I didn't really need a demonstration of everything. Most of the time was spent inspecting the vehicle for damage, putting my winter tire set in the truck and chatting with the DS about the whole experience. I did get a demonstration of the autopilot features and a quick refresher on a few things. With less chatting I could have been out of there in 15 minutes. There was a couple taking delivery of a P85D right next to me that was there when I arrived and was still there when I left.
Last time they had me accept delivery on an iPad and this time they just had me sign to accept delivery. They said they were having issues with their Internet. The "My Tesla" page still has an accept delivery button. Which is a tad strange.
I think Tesla felt bad about the whole thing and they gave me all weather floor mats (and installed them for me), couple of baseball caps and instead of the neoprene fob covers I got a set of the new leather ones.
When I saw the car on Monday it was flat out filthy from the trip up here. The car had been detailed and looked a whole lot better, but there were a few small things missed in detailing it. The interior on the seats had some dirt on them (that I didn't really notice until later) and the accent had a smeary bit on it. I remember the S85 being super perfect. But I suspect there was a fair amount of rushing this time. So I'm not going to sweat it. The detail shop gets the car on Monday and I'm sure they'll clean everything up super nice.
Despite all the issues along the way I'm a happy customer.�
Feb 18, 2015
Ames Thank you Breser for an excellent, well written, and detailed review. Look forward to the pics; I love the grey with black alcantara and piano black. I still want a P85D though :biggrin:�
Feb 18, 2015
Tedkidd Thanks for the nice write up!�
Feb 18, 2015
rickgt very well written... thanks for the analysis�
Feb 18, 2015
KennyB-FLL Great review!
Wow! That was quite the writeup! I forgot you previously owned a Model S, so reading your impression is very helpful.
Best of luck with your 85D!
KB�
Feb 18, 2015
Cyclone I know in some threads people have said the black headliner with pano "is a waste". That said, I also was thinking of your combination - gray seats with black headliner with pano. Glad to hear your thoughts on it! Congratulations!�
Feb 18, 2015
dennis Congratulations on finally getting your car and thank you for the detailed write-up. Enjoy!�
Feb 18, 2015
ErstD Regarding the tow hook -- I'm told that there's a place underneath the frunk liner for the tow hook. When I took delivery of my Model S, the tow hook was sitting by itself in the frunk. I think it's a mistake that the tow hook is not in its rightful place (underneath the frunk liner). Talk to the service folks, they'll put the tow hook where its supposed to be.
�
Feb 18, 2015
Coiled Thanks for the impressions.
I test-drove a P85D a couple of days ago and I can tell you that, unless you are an insane acceleration junkie, you don't need it. I felt the unbelievable, headache-inducing rocket power and I didn't want it, not even a little. But maybe I'm just old. After driving a P85D, I immediately ordered my 85D.�
Feb 18, 2015
purplewalt @breser, congratulations on your new car.
Excellent write up, enjoyed your insight since you moved up from a S85 and were familiar with the base model.
Really glad you enjoy the driving aspect of the car.
Sounds like I need to locate one and test drive a S85D.
I have driven a loaner P85D and was wowed by the car's tracking around corners.
You have confirmed what I was pretty sure would be true: the AWD car (S85D or P85D) will track like being on rails.�
Feb 18, 2015
NTech Thanks!
Thanks for an excellent review!
And congrats on your delivery...�
Feb 18, 2015
Phil K Great write up. Thank you very much and enjoy the drive!�
Feb 19, 2015
anticitizen13.7 Thanks for the writeup! Glad to hear that the 85D can tackle curves like it's on rails. When I buy a Tesla I definitely want Dual Motor:biggrin:�
Feb 19, 2015
tri335 Thanks for a great great write up. I have been looking for reviews on the 85D. i'm in the market for either a used/new model s85 but its good to get a perspective on the 85D!�
Feb 19, 2015
Jack_L Great write up. Thanks for sharing!�
Feb 19, 2015
invisik Thanks for the great comparison between the S85 and the S85D.
-m�
Feb 19, 2015
KJD Thanks for the write up breser. What tire wheel combination do you have on the car ?
Looking forward to how your range and efficiency numbers look after you get a few miles in the driver seat.�
Feb 19, 2015
breser Standard 19" wheels, Michelin Primacy. I also ordered Tesla's 19" winter wheel set but winter is effectively over here so I didn't have them put them on.�
Feb 19, 2015
mnx This sounds like understeer, which is not something I've experienced at all in my RWD P85 (except in snow of course if I jerk the wheel while coasting or accelerating it continues to go straight).
The situation you described (accelerating into a turn) I typically experience oversteer where the back end of the car wants to pass the front and corners too much (rather than having the car unwilling to turn).
Sorry if this is coming across as nitpicking.
�
Feb 19, 2015
breser The situation that stands out in my mind the most from when I had the first car would definitely be understeer.
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I've added a link to an imgur photo album. I'll keep adding some photos as I take them and have time.�
Feb 19, 2015
Bobbyducati can you elaborate on this? slightly confused on if i have this or not.�
Feb 19, 2015
breser Not my picture (obviously since this is a RHD car) but here you go.
Source: New Kickplates Are Not Retrofittable�
Feb 19, 2015
Bobbyducati oh ok, i definitely have those, thanks. i thought there was an insert on the rear seats, but i guess im mistaken. car is in the shop ATM.�
Feb 19, 2015
breser I tried repeating the situation in the same spot with this car. No understeer.
I've also updated a few things since it was raining today. Bosch wipers work great. Wh/mile is down to more like what I saw with the S85 (and it was raining when I first got the S85).�
Feb 19, 2015
RyanT Ugh, hopefully not another "waiting for torgue sleep" issue coming up like we saw with the P85D.�
Feb 19, 2015
breser I don't think the efficiency is worse than the S85. The P85D owners saw much worse efficiency that was obviously worse than P85s. This isn't the case here. Weather condition differences are enough to make it very hard to see if the 85D is really better. Probably have to do parallel drives in an S85 and 85D to be sure. I'd need to find someone with an S85 that wanted to do that since I don't have one anymore.�
Feb 19, 2015
MikeBur Congratulations on your new 85D, and thanks for taking the time for comprehensive write up. Hadn't heard about the Model S / Bank issue in the 'quah - this posted somewhere?
The primary reason for getting AWD for me was the slippery roads here and, imo, it drives a lot more predictably than just the RWD. Saying that, you can still have some fun... I did manage to get mine a little sideways today on east side entrance to 520 off the 202. As you mention it did start raining again today... ;-)�
Feb 19, 2015
Saghost Also brand new tires, brand new gears and bearings. It's not quite like breaking in an engine, but I would expect that if you could map actual efficiency and losses over time, you'd find that the first few hundred or thousand miles have higher rolling resistance that goes away over time. I don't have any numbers, but I wouldn't expect it to be a huge change - maybe 5% or so.
Walter�
Feb 19, 2015
breser Indeed, Tesla had said that tires need ~1000 miles of break in before you'll get expected efficiency. Though I'm mostly comparing from my recollections of efficiency of a brand new S85 to the efficiency on my brand new 85D.
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http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/42661-Tesla-crashes-into-bank-in-Issaquah�
Feb 19, 2015
Subhuman Does the single latch seem to make the frunk close any easier? Such as helping to prevent the dreaded frunk crease.�
Feb 19, 2015
breser Maybe a little bit but not much. I didn't use the frunk much on the S85 and I haven't used it much on the 85D. Really only reason I used it was to show people.�
Feb 21, 2015
breser 6.1 (2.2.167) that dropped today fixes the software to match the physical badging on the back of the car (black D).�
Feb 22, 2015
breser Updated a few more images today. I also noticed one more thing. The recommended tire pressure on this car is 50 psi not 45 psi like my S85.
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The GVWR went up to 5820 lbs from 5710 lbs (implying the front motor weighs about 110 lbs). But curiously the GAWR FRT and GAWR RR didn't change. They're still 2813 lbs and 3307 lbs respectively. Not sure how that's possible.�
Feb 22, 2015
Saghost This is an 85D, not a P85D, right?
That being the case, the rear motor is the new smaller and lighter type too, right?
So the 110 pounds would be the amount the two new motors are heavier than the one older, larger motor, I'd think - but that also includes new cooling systems and the structural changes to provide impact resistance without the huge box beams.
Walter�
Feb 22, 2015
breser Correct on both cases.
Yeah that's true. It's not all just the motor.�
Feb 22, 2015
wk057 Seriously? Why the B&W? We all know it's green. I've been laughing about this a bit for a couple of days and I'm actually genuinely confused as to why you've been going out of your way to hide it.�
Feb 22, 2015
breser I'm posting what I can post. The alternative is to not post anything. If that's what you prefer. I'll just stop bothering to share any information.�
Feb 22, 2015
wk057 Interesting response, that's for sure... especially since we're talking about a color and not something like an early release firmware under NDA or something. Still confused. But, do what you must.�
Feb 22, 2015
NOLA_Mike LOL - WTH? Has it come to signing NDAs to get a certain color now?�
Feb 22, 2015
dirkhh So I'm guessing that @breser isn't just one of the first to get an S85D but also one of the first to get one of the new colors... I never bought the story that Tesla was going to permanently reduce the number of colors...
Congrats! Can't wait to see that unveiled.�
Feb 22, 2015
wk057 Which is why I'm confused. I'm pretty sure you can't actually use the car without revealing it's color to... well, everyone... which would make an NDA useless.
If the OP is choosing to hide it here then this is his choice to do so.
Guess that's possible. Still pointless to hide this, IMO. If it is a new color, someone will see it and post it eventually anyway. For example, if I spotted it, I'm under no obligation to not post a pic. So, hope someone spots him�
Feb 22, 2015
breser Let me be explicit. I have been asked by Tesla not to publicly broadcast the color. I pointed out the fact that anyone seeing the car will see the color. They reiterated their request.�
Feb 22, 2015
wk057 That's better than the previous cryptic response. Appreciated and respected.�
Feb 22, 2015
dirkhh The way @breser phrased it seemed to clearly imply that this is out of his control. So I don't think it's just "his choice"...�
Feb 22, 2015
breser I sure hope someone does.�
Feb 22, 2015
golfski I will be on the lookout this afternoon in North Bend by the Outlets if you are thinking about taking a drive�camera in hand!�
Feb 22, 2015
dirkhh So @breser... where are you planning to have dinner tonight?�
Feb 22, 2015
jerjozwik what an entertaining turn of events.�
Feb 22, 2015
InternetDude Why?�
Feb 22, 2015
breser Darn guys I guess the secret is out
�
Feb 22, 2015
Andyw2100 I hadn't noticed the aero wheels in the other pictures. Nice!
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Let's think about this a bit, guys. (breser--no need to comment, because you can't, so we'll just talk about you and your car behind your back, in front of you.)
When Tesla "discontinued" brown and green as colors, the first thing they did, if I recall correctly, was discontinue them on the S85D, and offer to let people with S85Ds switch their configurations to P85Ds. It was only later that the colors were discontinued for the P85Ds. I think it's more likely that Tesla just allowed breser to keep his original color and configuration, perhaps after some negotiation or something, than that breser has some spanking new color that no one knows about and no one has reported on. If so, he may, literally, have the only S85D produced in that color. Which would be why Tesla doesn't want him posting pictures of it, and which would be why he is honoring their request, since they did him a pretty big favor by producing the car in the color he wanted.
I have no direct knowledge of any of this. This is 100% conjecture on my part, based on knowing the timeline of events, and on having read in this thread that people seemed to think breser's car was green, before thinking it might be a new color.�
Feb 22, 2015
jerjozwik lurking around reddit eh? I showed that video to the wife and her response was "I want that tesla!"�
Feb 22, 2015
dirkhh I bet that's rough on your range, though...�
Feb 22, 2015
JakeP AndyW2100, your explanation makes good sense. How else would he have been able to order a "different" color? And of course this explains why all of Breser's pics were in black and white! Still, this is exciting, to think that there might be extended life for old colors, or new colors already "in the wild".�
Feb 22, 2015
jerjozwik based on the google 2015 delivery sheet, your let him keep green theory holds up. as he ordered at or after the d reveal.�
Feb 22, 2015
Andyw2100 I decided to investigate further. I'm now 95% sure I'm correct.
I found this thread, which I vaguely remembered: Trading Up My Experience
Here are a couple of highlights:
And the last post from breser in that thread:
I rest my case.
Also, let us not forget that if Tesla did do this for breser, it may well have been because he was, I believe, literally a day on the wrong side of the free autopilot sensors on the car that he was trading in to get this one.
Edit: I just read the second post in the thread I linked to, which was from me. Foreshadowing? (Color wasn't an issue when breser started the thread.)
�
Feb 22, 2015
eco5280 
�
Feb 22, 2015
JakeP Nice job sleuthing, Andy. Congrats Breser, your green 85D is an even rarer bird than GG's green P85D!�
Feb 22, 2015
breser Bob's Burgers & Brew in Burlington, WA. Right by the Burlington, WA Supercharger.�
Feb 22, 2015
wk057 too bad thats ~3000 miles from me. lol�
Feb 22, 2015
Park2670 Thanks for the review. Glad you are liking the new car.�
Feb 22, 2015
S2X Another way to find out what color was purchased is to find out who picked up the P85D next to breser
I took delivery in September 2014 right before the "D" was release.
After the "D" was release I was trying to figure a way to get the "D" maybe retrofitted but it is what it is. My car did come with Autopilot without the extra cost.�
Feb 22, 2015
Andyw2100 If you took delivery in September 2014 that was right before the D was announced, not right before it was released.
The first Ds were delivered in late November or early December. I believe MarcG was the first forum member to take delivery of a P85D, and that he did so in early December--December 12, if my memory serves.�
Feb 22, 2015
S2X oops, I meant "announced"
hopefully Tesla will make the "D" a retrofitted kit soon�
Feb 23, 2015
donv Good luck with that one-- given that they won't even retrofit parking sensors, I think the only "retrofit" to get a D is to buy a new car.
�
Feb 23, 2015
Saghost I'm assuming this was supposed to be funny?
Tesla made major structural changes to the front end to accommodate the front motor; there's no way it will be retrofitted.
Walter�
Feb 23, 2015
eco5280 It's actually pretty easy to retro some grunt under the hood. Step one, go to a strip mall with a few dollars and a dream. Step two:
�
Feb 23, 2015
Electric700 Great review Breser! Thanks for taking the time to do it :smile:.�
Feb 23, 2015
breser Took the 85D in to get XPEL Ultimate, Opticoat and Tint today. I had it over the weekend and I've found a few minor nits. I'm sending service an email to start planning what to do about them, but they're all very minor.
There's a clicking sound coming from the back seat area. Hear it whenever you go over a bump. I know they had my back seat out to get to some wiring, so I'm guessing they didn't get something back in just right.
Rattle in the dash around the drivers side outside vent. My S85 had the same issue. This comes and goes.
Refuses to charge at 80A on my HPWC. The S85 did so just fine. I turn it up to 80A, plug it in and it turns itself right back down to 79A. Really strange because I can't fathom what's helpful about turning it down by 1A. It refuses to let me turn it up from 79A when plugged in like the pilot signal is saying it's plugged into a 79A charger. I figure service can help me by seeing if this is just something that's happening with my HPWC or something to do with the car.�
Feb 23, 2015
Andyw2100 My P85D does this on both my HPWCs, which are at two different locations. When I posted about it here, inquiring, I was basically told not to worry about it. Apparently the display truncates, and the 79 could actually be 79.9 or 79.8.
I almost never want to charge at 80 amps anyway. I generally charge at 56 amps. I've chosen to accept the advice here, and not worry about it. Do you think this is actually something to be concerned about?�
Feb 23, 2015
breser I'm not just talking about the display of the amps while charging. I certainly saw my S85 bounce around and it wasn't always at 80A. But the selector to choose the charge rate goes to 79A and it greys out the up arrow. Never had that on the old car. That always stayed at 80A, even if the actual charge amps bounced around a bit.
Umm why? There's a lot of superstition about charge rates that I've never really understood. The rate of a supercharge charge is so much faster than my 80A charge at home, I can't really understand what the benefit of charging at a slower rate is.
No idea, it's just inconsistent with my experience and doesn't seem right. So I've mentioned it to Tesla.�
Feb 23, 2015
Andyw2100 Yes, I believe that's exactly what mine does as well. The next time I plug in, it shows 79 as the available charge rate. I think I could bump it up again at that point, but as soon as it starts charging it would adjust down to 79, and then I would not be able to adjust anything until I unplugged again. (It's been a while since I've messed with any of this, so I may be a little fuzzy on it. I've just left it alone, and let the max show as 79 for a couple of months now.)
It's not superstition. I'm taking the advice of people here who seem to know what they are talking about. In this case it was largely Cottonwood, but others confirmed, and what was said made sense to me. The general idea is that charging at the higher amps results in more heat and more stress on the various components of the system. I installed everything so I'd have 80 amps available if I ever needed to charge quickly, but most of the time I have absolutely no need. So rather than put unnecessary additional stress on the system, even though it is designed to take it, I choose to stress the various components less and charge at a lower amperage, resulting in less heat. I chose 56 because with dual chargers they are both being used at 56, but lightly used. At 40 amps, only one would be used. Again, 56 was the number Cottonwood recommended, and it made sense to me.
Also my understanding is that the superchargers completely bypass your onboard chargers, as it is a completely different charging system. I believe your dual onboard chargers convert AC current into DC current to charge the battery. I believe the superchargers bypass your onboard dual chargers and charge the battery directly with DC current. I'm sure someone that understands this better than I do can and will explain it better, but the bottom line is that the way your HPWC charges your Model S and the way a supercharger charges it have very little to do with each other. So the fact that the Supercharger charges your battery much faster than your HPWC would at 80 Amps is completely irrelevant. (And for what it's worth Chademo chargers charge essentially the same way the Superchargers do, so comparisons with them would also be irrelevant.)
I'll be interested in hearing what they say, as I believe I'm in the same boat.�
Feb 23, 2015
NOLA_Mike Not in keeping with the thread topic but I also have the capability of charging at 80A at home and keep mine at 30A unless I need a quick charge. 30A provides more than enough charge/hour to have the car completely charged each morning.
My reason is that I have a 25 kW natural gas powered whole home generator set to automatically start up and switch over if I lose utility power. This could happen in the middle of the night or at a time when no one is home and I don't want any more than the 7.2 kW load the car puts on it at 30A. I have 10 tons of A/C (3 separate units) and if bad timing strikes all three could be running at same time. If the car were also pulling 80A we would have an issue...�
Feb 23, 2015
breser I understand the theory. I still believe it's superstition. It's well understood that allowing a battery to get too hot is not good. But Tesla has a climate control system for the battery. It cools it. Which brings me to the reason I brought up the supercharger.
I brought up the supercharger because of the charge rate being so much faster, it must be producing more heat in the battery. At maximum a 80A HPWC can deliver 19.2 kW, lowering your charge rate to 56A brings you down to 13.44 kW. The supercharger delivers up to 135 kW. The cooling system has to be designed to handle cooling the battery at a rate over 10 times what you're doing and still roughly 7 times an 80A HPWC charge.
A big part of the reason I think this is superstition is because if charging faster was really bad for the battery I'd expect Tesla to tell us as much. They don't. In fact they tell us to supercharge as much as we want. In the range reduction thread over on the Battery forum I've seen people talk about all sorts of different theories. I've yet to see any of these theories line up with data. People that slow charge aren't having less battery degradation. From what I've seen it's really hard to draw a conclusion.
It's not even really clear that there is much battery degradation at all and that the issues might have more to do with the algorithm doing a poor job of estimating battery state when it's not charged high enough often enough to trigger balancing of the pack.
So I think messing with the charge rate is just a waste of time. I leave it set to the maximum and don't worry about it.
This is of course different than state of charge. I've been charging to 80% because it's more than enough for my normal driving needs. I of course charge to a higher state of charge if I need it.�
Feb 23, 2015
Andyw2100 When I was talking about reducing heat I wasn't referring to trying to protect the battery, but rather the various components in the charging system. For example, the components in the dual chargers themselves (bypassed when supercharging) and also the components in the HPWC. I wasn't even thinking about the battery itself.
Perhaps Cottonwood will chime in, as I don't feel particularly qualified to discuss this as I'm basically just parroting back what I've read, and my rudimentary understanding of it.�
Feb 23, 2015
breser Well I'll admit that I think Tesla hasn't designed the UMC or the HPWC nearly as well as they should have. But I'm not going to lower my charge rate just to lower their warranty claims. If they didn't design things well enough to handle the stated charge rates then that's their poor decision.
It's my understanding that the onboard chargers are in the battery cooling loop. So they should be protected by that. So the only unprotected systems are the HPWC and/or UMC. Which really should be designed to not require cooling.
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That sort of reasoning makes sense to me.�
Feb 23, 2015
brianman Just another data point. All 3 of my HPWCs (1 early one replaced, and 2 currently active) display(ed) "79/80" when charging on my Sig.�
Feb 23, 2015
NOLA_Mike Are all new Model Ss coming with the automatically closing charge port door or is that a P85D only thing?�
Feb 23, 2015
breser If you mean 79 out of 80. Then no that's not what I'm complaining about. I'm getting 79 out of 79. For some reason the car is limiting the maximum charge amps to 79 with my HPWC.
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D only (so both P85D and 85D get it).
I'm certain that will change at some point.�
Feb 23, 2015
MarcG Indeed, good memory Andy!
BTW Ben, if you want to keep the color concealed (or Tesla is asking you to do so), I would be careful about posting photos in full color on Twitter...
I would even venture to say that Twitter has more exposure than TMC :biggrin:�
Feb 23, 2015
breser As far as what I want. I'd rather not have to bother walking the line between trying to participate in this forum and keeping my word to Tesla. As much as I enjoy participating in this forum. I'm seriously regretting not walking away and not bothering to post anymore. Since at this point everyone just wants me to tell them. There's some theories and some evidence posted and all anyone really cares about is trying to get me to tell.
As I decided a long time ago, I will confirm when someone posts a photo of my car. I will not go out of my way to assist them in taking said photo. I.E. I'm not going to go someplace out of my way to take said picture. If I go someplace and someone takes a picture out of my control and posts it so be it.�
Feb 23, 2015
brianman Hm. Thanks for the clarification. Interesting.�
Feb 23, 2015
AmpedRealtor This makes a lot of sense. If the alternative hypothesis is that he received a top secret new green color, how was he able to select an unannounced color through the web ordering process?
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Whether it's 79/80 or 79/79, it's still the same charge rate. It's probably just a software rounding error or something.�
Feb 23, 2015
breser If that's what Tesla tells me I'll accept that. But I'm concerned there's something wrong with my wiring, HPWC or the car. I'd like them to look into it. For what it's worth I've contacted service and they didn't dismiss the issue as just a rounding error and are going to look at the car (along with the other rattles) next week.�
Feb 23, 2015
Cyclone i have to agree with Breser here. Regardless of any reasons, it's his business and we should be a supportive community and not harass him about it. I would much rather see B&W photos than making a hostile environment for another forum member!�
Feb 23, 2015
Andyw2100 I agree.
And I want to add that the posts I made concerning this I made in an attempt to put an end to it. I thought once the answer was obvious, and the reason breser wasn't saying anything was obvious, everyone would just let the thing die down. Apparently I was wrong. It's pretty darn apparent that breser's hands are tied, so let's stop bugging him. He has been an extraordinarily valuable contributor to the community for quite some time, and to hear that he now regrets not having just left this community is more than a little upsetting. As a community, we should be ashamed. Let's fix it by dropping it.�
Feb 23, 2015
eco5280 And you're complaining about a rattling car? Don't you know we're all just beta testers who should settle for anything and shut up and support Tesla?
Let us know what they tell ya. I've not had a chance so far to put many miles on the car due to weather but I appreciate you mentioning any niggles you find and how the resulting repairs resolve them. It's useful to all of us.�
Feb 23, 2015
wk057 My P85D reports 79A max as well sometimes, while the P85 using the same charger will always report 80A. I've been meaning to ask Tesla about this, but keep forgetting. Please let us know how that goes.
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@bresser - Apologies in advance, but I'm going to put this color issue to rest for you. Hopefully this will get everyone off of your back and stop speculation. I just noticed the implications of what you posted about the color being correct in the android app.
If bresser is honest in the quoted post above (from another thread), which I have no reason to doubt, then I'm virtually 100% sure his car is the original green that was available and not some fancier yet unseen color. Since no one would bother to hide an available color, the only colors left are green, brown, and sig-red. Don't think sig red would be it, brown wasn't in any previous posts, and green makes sense.
Proof: The Android app has all of the color combinations available for display hard coded into the app. There are no "exotic" colors in the droid app that could be shown.
As proof, I depackaged the droid app and here is what is available:
If the color is indeed correct in his android app, it is one of those colors. Anyone is welcome to do this themselves if they don't believe me.�
Feb 23, 2015
xy46 Great review - thanks for sharing!�
Feb 23, 2015
breser Speculate all you want. If I were in your shoes I'd be damned curious too. Just don't expect me to provide an answer and keep it limited to one thread. This thread is fine.
I appreciate the sentiment about being a valuable contributor but I've only really been around for 6 months.
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I probably would have let the dash rattle go until something else was a problem. But the back seat rattle is really annoying. It's like a dripping faucet at night. It's not subtle. Given the high voltage wiring that they messed with under the seat to replace the rear drive unit. I'm a tad worried that whatever is making the noise is rubbing on wiring.
I'm up to about 500 miles. But I've been somewhat cautious about the miles since it didn't have paint protection on it yet. It's getting that done now and I'll have it back tomorrow. At which time I'll probably start really driving it.
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Well I think that makes 3 people saying that's happening with the D's. Wonder if it's just a software display bug. I will let you know what they say.�
Feb 23, 2015
NOLA_Mike My upper dash was rattling on my P85D. Ended up being the plastic trim piece directly under the "hood" over the LCD display - tech put some thin foam adhesive to hold it tight when clipped back in. That rattle is gone.
I've got another rattle coming from somewhere in the rear of the car that is going to be much harder to find. My solution thus far is turn up the sound system until I no longer hear it...�
Feb 23, 2015
Cottonwood My argument for charging at a 70% rate is to reduce failures in both the UMC/HPWC and the onboard chargers. Temperature rise is proportional to power dissipated whether the cooling is via air or liquid. Most of the heating in the charging path is Ohmic and therefore proportional to the square of current. If you can cut the current to 70%, then the power dissipated is reduced to to 49%; we will call that cut in half. If the current is reduced by 30%, then the power, and therefore the temperature rise is reduced by 50%.
Most models agree that electronic failure rate is exponential with temperature. See the graph below of the temperature component of failure rate from Guidelines to Understanding Reliability Prediction. From this, you can see that failure rate approximately doubles for every 15? C. rise in temperature.
I don't care whether the cost of repair is born by Tesla or me, it's still a pain in the a**, because of the time lost and inconvenience. 98% or 99% of the time, charging at 56 Amps is all I need. When I do need to charge faster, I just turn up the current. If I can do something that reduces the failure rate of the charging components 98% of the time, and charge at max rate those 2% of the time, it's a good tradeoff for me.�
Feb 23, 2015
breser I can see that for the UMC/HPWC but the onboard chargers are on the cooling loop for the car. If lowering your charge rate helps much then I'd say they botched the cooling design. But then again I can't say I've seen people mention many onboard charger failures. I've seen a lot of UMC failures and some HPWC failures. So I'd say prevalence is roughly UMC > HPWC > Onboard Chargers.
Just seems like a lot of hassle to me. But my driving and charging isn't focused around a commute out and back on a regular schedule (i.e. just night time charging).�
Feb 23, 2015
Cottonwood Thermal modeling usually uses thermal resistance as a metric of how well something can be cooled. Typical units are ?C./Watt. Even if the onboard chargers are in the liquid cooling loop, there is a thermal resistance from the coolant loop to the semiconductor junctions. Reduce power and you reduce temperature rise at the semiconductor junctions.
If most of your charging can be completed at a 70% rate, then why not charge at 70% if doing so will reduce failure rate. Just make 56 Amps the default and forget about it. How often do you need 56 mph vs 40 mph charging. For the one in fifty times, you need a faster charge, ramp it up. That does not seem like a hassle to me.�
Feb 23, 2015
wk057 At the risk of going way off topic...
I charge at 240V/80A 100% of the time. I feel no need whatsoever to reduce current when the current is available. (That may change when I complete my solar setup to better use incoming power.)
Since my schedule is erratic I'd rather just have as much juice as possible whenever I need to leave.�
Feb 23, 2015
Cottonwood If you always need max charge rate, then by all means use it. However, I argue that for 99% of the Tesla population, there is no difference in functionality between 56 Amp and 80 Amp (40 mph and 56 mph) charging at home. On the road, it's a far different picture; that's why I strongly recommend dual chargers.
If 99% of the time, you get equal functionality from a reduced charge rate and it will reduce failure rate, then why not cut back...�
Feb 23, 2015
breser I agree that cutting back charging rate will reduce heat and reduce the failure rate (though I'm dubious that it's going to make much difference on the onboard chargers). I thought when this was brought up that we were talking about battery degradation since there are some people that think slower charging is safer for the battery, which I think is a superstition. If charging at a slower rate works for you then by all means do it. But like wk057, my driving situation is not predictable to the degree that I can predict when I'm going to need to charge fast ahead of time. So I'd be have to be changing the charging rate up and down all the time (up during the day when I might need the faster speed and down at night when I know I wouldn't). Since I can't even adjust the amperage from the mobile app that means going out to the car every time. That's a chore. I have a UMC I hardly use and a 14-50 as a backup to the HPWC. Onboard charger failures are really rare form what I've seen. So for me the more optimal use of my time is just leaving the charger set to max. Like you say that may not be best for the majority.�
Feb 23, 2015
Cottonwood Hear, hear! Different rates for different folks... Use what you need. If you don't need as much most of the time, then reduce stress and charge a little slower.
We are discussing the second and third order optimizations. When it comes down to it, enjoy your Tesla and don't worry the details!
I just need to remember that many have labeled me an O^2, an Obsessive Optimizer. :biggrin:�
Feb 24, 2015
RobinF I've been hearing the same sort of sound from the back of my car since it was delivered. I had the car into the SC and while they heard it fine (it's like a trailing rattle after going over small bumps in concrete parking lots and streets) they could no locate it. They claimed to have called Engineering and everything but returned the car without fixing it. I was worried it would be a drive wiring thing but I now really suspect that given what you have said. Thanks for letting us know about such a small detail. It might be significant to others.
Has anyone else dealt with this rattling or ticking sound and had Tesla fix it?�
Feb 24, 2015
MSEV Thank you for posting about the 85D. The P85D gets a lot of press, while the 85D also seems like a great choice for a lot of folks. I hope to have mine in the next 4 to 6 weeks, so I appreciate the info.�
Feb 24, 2015
neroden Bosch windshield wipers...
...with the service plan, we're supposed to get new windshield wipers every year. Does anyone know whether we get the New Improved Bosch windshield wipers on our old cars?�
Feb 25, 2015
breser I'm not seeing any obvious change in mounting. So I'd assume you get whatever part they have on hand if that happens to be Bosch then that's what you get. If the factory is installing Bosch they've probably changed suppliers for parts as well. But they may use up whatever supply they have if they don't consider them to be broken.�
Feb 25, 2015
brianman Concur. I'd do the same. I'll be curious to hear what Tesla says.�
Feb 25, 2015
JPP I was in for a 24k (...really, 25k) service last month. Got replacement inserts on my wipers but does not look like I got new frames/arms (old ones do not have the Bosch logo, new ones from factory do have the Bosch logo). That said, mine work great.�
Feb 26, 2015
neroden I've been living with the original, really terrible wipers for quite a while. They don't do the job on snow and ice, or even bad rain. And they burn out fast. They're really substandard. So I am hoping that they've been improved in some fashion. I guess I'll ask next time I call the service center.�
Feb 26, 2015
Andyw2100 Even the new wiper blades don't cut it. They're made by Bosch, but they are not the right model Bosch blade. You need to go with the Bosch Icon blades. See this thread for the details:
P85D wiper blades�
Feb 27, 2015
breser Think it's safe to say I'm done with first impressions.
For those wondering, I was at 348 Wh/mile at that point in my trip today and 372 Wh/mile lifetime so far.�
Feb 27, 2015
xhawk101 Q AZ 11+a
Wow pocket post lol�
Feb 27, 2015
dirkhh Insightful, if a little cryptic...�
Feb 27, 2015
Griffinlair Means nothing to me�
Feb 27, 2015
swengl I'm right there with ya, MSEV! I'm having the HPWC installed next week in preparation for "late March" delivery.�
Feb 28, 2015
anticitizen13.7 Ah, I see you reached the 1,000 miles mark! Look forward to hearing your thoughts on the 85D's range and cruising efficiency.�
Feb 28, 2015
breser Yup. I honestly can't see a ton of difference in range/efficiency. Like I've said before I think you'd have to compare a 85 to an 85D in side by side comparisons to see the difference. Maybe I'll find someone local to do some of that with. I have yet to do anything with range mode, so obviously I didn't have the problems with it and .167. Now that .179 is out and supposedly resolves the problem (and I have it installed) I might give it a try.�
Feb 28, 2015
wk057 The 85D should do very well on interstate drives at a reasonable speed (60-70 MPH). Would love to see a side by side test of that. Feel like bringing your 85D over to NC so we can do a side-by-side-by-side with the P85D, 85D, and P85? I could always pick up a third GoPro�
Feb 28, 2015
breser As fun as that sounds I don't see myself getting to that side of the country anytime soon.�
Mar 1, 2015
breser Just wanted to point out that this thread is intended to be about 85D and not the P85D or D vehicles in general.�
Mar 1, 2015
doug Thanks. Some posts went here: P85D sighting / test drives - Page 50�
Mar 1, 2015
breser I'd mentioned wanting to do a road trip to the new Coeur d'Alene, ID SuperCharger once it opens. Another member with an S85 has contacted me and we're going to do that road trip together to collect some comparison data. It'll be a 278 mile drive one way. I'm not expecting to make a video like wk075 has been doing. But we should still be able to collect useful information.�
Mar 2, 2015
breser Dropped my car off at the Service Center to resolve the minor things I mentioned earlier in this thread. I said earlier in this thread that I really didn't want to drive a P85D. So of course the loaner is a P85D.�
Mar 2, 2015
dirkhh Excellent. Remember to do a few launches and take the car through its paces�
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