Sep 1, 2015
vitaliy Finally, Model X design studio is here! So far just for some Signature reservation holders - Update to My Tesla! - Model X design studio images
I was waiting to order Model S for a while, to see changes from Model X trickling down to Model S, and I can't help myself to speculate now:
- Better autopilot (more cameras/sensors/processor)
- LED headlights
- Ventilated seats
- Rear cupholders & USB port
- Adjustable seatbelt height
Anything else?�
Sep 1, 2015
CHGolferJim Which New Interior Features from X will be available for S?
I plan to order a 70D this month, and am hoping for some new features and color options vs. August, whether related to X launch or not. What do you folks expect might happen?
- Ventilated/cooled seats
- Chocolate Brown seats, both leather and textile, with matching interior
- Other?
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Sep 1, 2015
jaguar36 I wouldn't expect anything coming soon. Likely all hands are working on either X specific stuff, or at least things that are common with the X. The seats are probably not common between the X and the S, so I wouldn't imagine them to be changed anytime soon.�
Sep 1, 2015
2krazykats How do you get to it? I didn't see it under Model X on the teslamotors.com site.�
Sep 1, 2015
MorrisonHiker Currently it's only available to a very small number of Signature (?) reservation holders. For others with a reservation, it says "You will be contacted in order of your reservation to design your Model X."�
Sep 1, 2015
MsElectric I've never really liked any of the interior wood trim options for the Model S. Obeche Wood is the only option I half liked but I never really loved it as it looked generic and in fact is what they use in the Chevrolet Malibu a while back.
I have to say I really like the more distinctive wood trim offered with the Model X and I hope it is also available in the Model S. The new wood trim looks so much better to me and I bet this would look even better with a tan interior.
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Sep 1, 2015
MrJones390 Look at that front windshield! Reminds me of...
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Sep 1, 2015
Gizmotoy I knew something was up when TMC seemed to keep choking as I was browsing pages, refusing to load. It's being hugged to death by people trying to view Model X information.
Looking at the Tesla Motors site, it's saying "The delivery estimate for new Model X reservations is early 2016". That is hopelessly optimistic, isn't it? Don't they have something like 50k reservations so far?�
Sep 1, 2015
robby 
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Sep 1, 2015
jeffro01 Now that ventilated seats are in the Model X... When will they come to the Model S???That's the last piece in my ordering puzzle...
Jeff�
Sep 1, 2015
ArtInCT From what I have read on TMC, there is a new Model X interior trim choice. A new additional wood trim as I recall.
It may be that this trim could find its way into the Model S, once they understand the supply chain for that option.
I was rather amazed actually hearing about the seat ventilation etc. Perhaps that too could be an easy candidate for the S, part of the Premium Interior Option or the Winter Package or perhaps an all new option?�
Sep 1, 2015
AnOutsider like this?
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Sep 1, 2015
vitaliy Looks great! How do 22" wheels look like?�
Sep 1, 2015
vitaliy Maybe we would get some more color options
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Sep 1, 2015
necho Same style Drop-In Center Console for the S ...�
Sep 1, 2015
mgboyes Considering that my P90DL went into production yesterday I'm delighted to see that the X really doesn't seem to have anything significant and new in terms of gadgets or features compared to the S. Ventilated seats I can cope without.
X interior is very similar to current S interior (indeed the entire dash appears to be identical) which also suggests a major refresh of the S is not on the cards.
Maybe sometime next year they'll both get the 360 camera and the LED headlights...�
Sep 1, 2015
freeewilly Off topic question:
@vitaliy, What tool did you use to edit the Model S exterior colors? It looks awesome.�
Sep 1, 2015
vitaliy Photoshop CS6 -> Choose Image -> Adjustments -> Replace Color
I'm not expert at Photoshop, but I think with that tool you can only achieve some body colors, depending on base body color. For example, red can be transformed to yellow, brown, and maybe couple more; but not blue, etc...�
Sep 1, 2015
R.S Thinks that are pretty sure to come to the S
-Ventilated Seats
-Decor on the doors
-front center console(as an design studio option, or standard)
Things that might come:
-20/22 wheels
-rear spoiler
-trailer hitch�
Sep 1, 2015
AmpedRealtor This bodes well for Model S sales NOT being cannibalized. I was afraid the Model X would receive a nicer interior, but now it looks like it shares much more in common with the current generation Model S. I don't see anything here that would make me want to get an X over an S. I previously felt that the X might represent a big leap beyond the current S, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Tesla is hiding the front end of the car for some reason, which tells me that there's something going on there - possibly more than just new headlights.�
Sep 1, 2015
MsElectric 
Oh that is so beautiful! Thanks for sharing. Tan goes so well with that beautiful new wood trim.
I wonder if they'd ever make the new wood trim pieces available at a reasonable price.
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But notice the one big HUGE improvement. The center console now matches the wood trim, as it should have from day 1.
Honestly at this price range the center console should be a standard a amenity (and if someone does not like it, they can leave it out). It is beyond ridiculous that for a car costing this much you have to buy a center console if you want to hide your media device and the cable that is plugged into the USB port.�
Sep 1, 2015
Biker @vitality, you should be the colour man for Tesla. Great car, boring colours.�
Sep 1, 2015
thegruf What Model X features are coming to the Model S?
There is only a partial reveal of the X so far showing
Heated and Cooled seats
20 inch wheels
possibly some new trim options including trim matched centre console?
nothing so far on
360 camera view
higher spec sensors for autopilot
LED headlights (no front view of hte X as yet)
so actually great news for recent Model S orders/owners - your car is not about to be made obsolete!
spot anything else?�
Sep 1, 2015
Joules Verne Nose job.
They are hiding the front of the X in the design studio for a reason.�
Sep 1, 2015
MarcG Duplicate of this thread: Model X design studio is here! What to expect for Model S?
Mods, please merge.�
Sep 1, 2015
randrave I think everyone is getting out in front of their skis with speculation on the Model X interior based on these computer renderings. The renderings were not intended for public consumption. They could easily be placeholders set up for the Sig buyers, based on the existing Model S interior but not reflecting what the X will actually look like. I actually think they look a little TOO much like the Model S pictures, where I would normally expect at least some variation (like in the cup holder/armrest and center console setup).
Basically, I don't think that Tesla has done the full reveal yet. That's going to wait until what will likely be a big September event.�
Sep 1, 2015
Khatsalano I hate to say it, but the X doesn't look very pretty.
- K�
Sep 1, 2015
vitaliy I agree. But it looks great with falcon doors open and inside.�
Sep 1, 2015
donv Did they do a big event for the first Model S delivery? From the YouTube videos of it, it doesn't really look like it.
Why would you expect them to do anything different for the X?
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Sep 1, 2015
eye.surgeon I shudder to think what that windshield is going to cost to replace.�
Sep 1, 2015
sorka Dumb question, but how do you see the Model X design studio? Is it only available for those that reserved early?�
Sep 1, 2015
jsm It is really limited right now - I think it is the first 200 or so people who reserved.�
Sep 1, 2015
MarkS22 There seems to be some expectation that some super-advanced features are being hidden or intentionally rendered incorrectly. I'm not sure why people think Tesla would put photos (or renderings) of the final design in a Design Studio, have people purchase the car, and then reveal a different "actual look" a couple weeks later? That's a lot of work and confusion... to what end? What would the motive be to deceive early adopters? Hiding design features from competitors for an extra couple weeks? Saving up for a massive launch event in hopes of better press?
It's a new long-awaited Tesla model. That will get the press. The general public wouldn't care about the things this forum's members care about, like "an extra camera or sensor for Autopilot" or "new cup holders." Heck, the original Autopilot hasn't even been fully activated yet.
I think what we see is what we'll get.�
Sep 1, 2015
Khatsalano Yea, I can see a new hyphy movement where you ghost ride the whip with the doors open. But of course, autopilot will be driving the car as you dance next to it so it'll be ok.
- K�
Sep 1, 2015
gizmoboy The most-commonly voiced opinion on the X thread is that Tesla is holding back all the goodies from the public to keep the S from being cannibalized.
I find that opinion a bit too wishful-thinkingish, but I wouldn't mind seeing a 360 degree camera option materialize...�
Sep 2, 2015
sitter_k Every time someone asks about new features, better interior or body style current owners circle the wagons discouraging change.�
Sep 2, 2015
liuping I've never seen anyone discourage new features like a 360 camera view.
There are usually people who complain they did not get the new feature because they ordered before it was available. But that is unavoidable if the car is to move forward.�
Sep 2, 2015
MsElectric No one is saying they are hiding anything with the photos. Actually from the photos you can already tell of some interesting features like the lack of an A pillar and how the same piece of glass essentially goes over your head like you would in an airplane. We also know of the cooled seats and I'm sure the cooled seats will also be offered in the Model S.
What some are saying is that the Model X will have more advanced features that they are not divulging now mostly because they don't want it to affect current Model S sales.
It is almost guaranteed that the Model X will have ver. 2.0 Autopilot sensors and that alone is a big deal. Also I would be completely shocked a modern SUV like the Model X would lack 360 degree view as I'm sure that's a feature many owners with families will appreciate when they park and maneuver what is a quite large vehicle. The Model X might also have a better audio system and possibly a faster CPU as well.
The bottom line is they are keeping a bunch of toys and goodies for the reveal so they can make a big splash. It might take months for these new features to eventually appear in the Model S but sooner or later they well.�
Sep 2, 2015
electrish Where is the exterior mirror?
It shows up in the Model S design studio!
Just sayin'!�
Sep 2, 2015
MsElectric They probably didn't get the regulatory permission in time to have a camera replace the side view mirror. It may or may not ship with glass mirrors and they have released photos of the Model X with and without the glass mirrors. Whatever happens at launch, it is only a matter of time until the glass mirrors go away.
In fact I would not be surprised if the rearview mirror of the Model X is actually a video screen�
Sep 2, 2015
jimmyjohn Agree with you on all points ----- well said.�
Sep 2, 2015
WestCoastP85D I think the only sure-thing is there is something special about the lights. They have been covered up without exception. Something is there ... all this other stuff has limited value from keeping secret. If it has a 360 camera, you would think this would be listed right alongside the cooled seats. Why keep that secret? And the Autopilot 1.0 sensors aren't even operational yet, if it was my production effort, I would keep the parts equal/lower cost until fully actualized. Why expect 2.0 equipment so fast?
All guesses.... we will know soon. The car is amazing, jaw dropping without all these must-haves. The processor is fast NOW, the auto-pilot will have lane keeping and self park NOW, the seats rock.... and that roof and falcon doors. They don't need more to sell out the first 40,000 units, IMHO.�
Sep 2, 2015
Max* Agreed 100%. I don't see an update to the AP sensors for 2-3 years at least.�
Sep 2, 2015
MsElectric 
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Sep 2, 2015
jeffro01 I'd like to see Tesla get on the ball with the heated & cooled seats option coming to the Model S... I sooooo badly want to order my Model S but now that I know Tesla has those seats, I'll wait...
Jeff�
Sep 2, 2015
MorrisonHiker There has been talk that the current set of sensors isn't adequate (which is why many Autopilot features have been delayed). Many X mules and even an S has been spotted with upgraded sensors (rear radar, additional cameras, etc.) I am hoping these will be on the X when it is released. There's no need to specifically mention a newer set of sensors in the Design Studio as they would probably be standard and only enabled if the Autopilot package is purchased.�
Sep 2, 2015
Max* I didn't say it's impossible, I'm just saying I don't see it happening.
There's no reason to release new hardware to accomplish what was promised for AP 1.0. Why release new hardware for AP 2.0 when the software development is going to lag years behind?
Also, what exactly will AP 2.0 give you? The ability to change lanes without you using the turn signal? The ability to become autonomous on the highway (Level 3), that's at least a handful of years away.
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There has been talk that the Model X will have all these new ground breaking features, too. It's a forum. People talk and speculate. I believe the hardware is adequate to do most if not all of what they promised. I don't see any limiting factors.
360 degree camera is not an AP sensor, it's a parking aid. I can 100% see them rolling out 360 degree sensors soon.
Rear radar is an AP sensor, I can see them rolling that out sooner rather than later, but I have my doubts it'll be on the Model X (how would you tow?). What exactly will it give besides better blind spot monitoring?�
Sep 2, 2015
MarkS22 I was referring to comments, for example, that the actual dashbord appearance isn't being shown yet. Or that images are placeholders. Specifically comments that what we see is going to be different from what we get.
I don't doubt there will be minor upgrades like possible LED lights or a 360 degree camera, but I disagree that they're concerned about cannibalizing Model S sales for an approximately two week period. Any concerned and educated buyer will be in wait see mode right now, waiting for the full reveal.�
Sep 2, 2015
MorrisonHiker With deliveries just a few weeks away, it will be nice to see the final product and end the speculation! :biggrin:�
Sep 2, 2015
AmpedRealtor Might that windshield pose a problem in a rollover? It would seem that the driver's head is exposed and unprotected by a metal roof in that area, and glass is certainly softer and less rigid than metal. Thoughts?
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Just like those who bought the Model S in 2012 thought there would be no significant changes until 2018... keep thinking that.
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Of course if Model X comes with improved sensors, so will Model S be updated to include those sensors. I don't know why it wouldn't happen. Test mules have already been spotted sporting stereoscopic and multiple front-facing cameras. It's inevitable. The software doesn't need to take advantage of it. There was no software to take advantage of the v1.0 sensors when they were launched. Functionality came weeks or months later.�
Sep 2, 2015
Mr X They need to add a ventilated glove box so that you can keep your drinks cold.�
Sep 2, 2015
MsElectric You know what would be even better for your drinks? A proper cup holder that allows you to use the armrest at the same time :tongue:�
Sep 2, 2015
anticitizen13.7 Bonnie mentioned in the Model X Configuration thread (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/52766-Model-X-Configuration-has-begun%21?p=1135376&viewfull=1#post1135376) that the white upholstery option is actually synthetic leather!
I hope that Model S gets a similar option, because it would give vegan/animal rights advocates an upgrade option beyond the black fabric interior.�
Sep 2, 2015
Max* And you're still complaning about that 3 years later. Might be time to let go?�
Sep 2, 2015
yak-55 Wow. Just wow. We don't even need Tesla to spout a bunch of vaporware anymore. We can get ourselves all worked up without any encouragement. There is a lot of wishful thinking going on here folks....
Why on earth would Tesla display something *less* than what they are prepared to deliver in mere weeks. What possible motivation could there be to holding back announcing new features.
What makes you think if they can't yet deliver on last October's feature set that we should expect more soon? What in their track record of over promising suggests this? What did the S reveal mean to new Roadster features?
I'd be much more concerned about the X actually having what *is* shown in the renderings before year end than hopefull of getting more. (Consider the next-gen seat fiasco of last year).
Sorry to be a Debbie Downer here, but "out over our skis" doesn't even begin to describe where we are here...maybe I'm wrong, maybe it *is* different this time, but I rather doubt it.�
Sep 2, 2015
ecarfan There were S buyers in 2012 who believed that there would be "no significant changes" in the S for 6 years? A car that from the start had OTA upgrade capability. I find it hard to imagine that any 2012 buyer could believe that.�
Sep 2, 2015
MarkS22 Exactly. Elon tweeted the following eight hours ago: "With same options, Model X is $5k more than an S due to greater size & body complexity. Sig Series is fully loaded, hence high price." So, there you have it. It's bigger with a more complex body. I think people need to realize (and be happy) that the Model X in the Design Studio IS the car being released with no major surprises. (Maybe LED lights or a 360 camera... but why not mention those with cooled/ventilated seats?) It seems to me that the X is already at a higher cost than expected. The last thing they need to do is install more expensive hardware when the previous (only 8 month old hardware) hasn't even come close to being utilized.
My personal prediction is that the "big wow" will be demonstrating some cool functionality of the 2nd row seats and it will launch with 7.0 UI.
Based on Elon's other tweet today, we'll see for sure on the 29th.�
Sep 2, 2015
MsElectric Wow just wow yourself
This thread is speculative by definition and it has been established for the sole purpose of speculating what if any enhancements we can expect in the Model S. It seems such speculative discourse doesn't sit well with you so I have no idea what you are contributing here...�
Sep 2, 2015
MikeC Elon specifically said on a conference call that he wants to keep some new interior features secret until deliveries start. When you have a 30,000 long waiting list, you don't need to show all your cards at once. Elon described Model X reservations like fish jumping in a boat. They'll want to hold back some excitement for the actual reveal event.�
Sep 2, 2015
robby People are reacting this way because of expectations that Elon has set. I believe it was this earnings call where he made direct references to improved autopilot hardware in the Model X. He also stated that Tesla "has not shown all [its] cards" this time around and that "there are things you don't know about" that "won't be revealed until the first deliveries." He has also on Twitter alluded to possible hardware alterations to deal with issues that have come up with software (example), so it doesn't seem crazy to me that they'd ship improved hardware soon even if v1 software is not out yet.�
Sep 3, 2015
MarkS22 We're all just speculating here, but I would expect any Autopilot upgrades to be minor. The reason being, the current system already uses MobileEye's EyeQ3 and the next-generation EyeQ4 won't be available for use in cars until 2018. The engineering samples aren't even ready yet. So, unless Tesla has ditched MobileEye, that's when we're going to see the next major leap. Of course, that doesn't rule out an additional camera or incremental improvements like a filter to cut down on glare that has been causing issues with lane keeping. But I'd expect those to appear on the P90D. I can't imagine the Model X having a more advanced Autopilot than the newest Model S. (If so, maybe the P90D already has some unannounced improvements coming off the line?)
Now, where I can see improvements are features that are dedicated to the Model X and its purpose. Like 360 cameras common with SUVs, or other unique improvements for a utility vehicle verses a sedan. Maybe something cool like an LCD dimming top windshield? Or more advanced air suspension? Personally, I'd love to see a faster processor for the 17" screen.
I don't doubt some incremental surprises... and I'd love to be wrong and see a major new feature reveal because it mean we'll all be getting better cars in the future.�
Sep 3, 2015
dow With lane keeping not yet active on the 1.0 hardware, what would 2.0 autopilot hardware imply?
If 2.0 hardware is necessary for already-advertised 1.0 features (such as lane keeping/autosteer) to work, then Tesla will end up having to bring thousands of Model S' back to the service centers to retrofit them to 2.0. Even trying to charge a fee to do it would be legally risky.
If 2.0 hardware has no bearing on 1.0 autopilot features, what does it do? I doubt the answer is "more reliable lane-keeping."�
Sep 3, 2015
Max* More reliable lane changing. The Model S can't tell if a car is approaching from the rear, in a nearby lane, at a high rate of speed. Even if you de-fisheye the fisheye, you can't see too far in the nearby lane, you need rear radar for that. I can see that being APv2 hardware. It could also lead, in the future, to automatic lane changing (though I don't know if more hardware would be required).
With all that being said, I already stated my speculation. Model X AP = Model S AP. I can see them adding a 360 degree camera, or something, but that's not AP related.
We'll find out in a few weeks.�
Sep 3, 2015
MsElectric No one said anything about bringing back Model S vehicles for sensor upgrades. They will remain with Ver. 1.0 sensors and I'm sure Tesla will deliver on basic autopilot capability with the Ver. 1.0 sensors in the Model S.
What the Ver. 1.0 sensors lack is redundancy as well as breadth of coverage. Other cars with half the advertised ability of the Tesla Autopilot have more comprehensive sensor suites and I feel pretty certain that the Model X will have a more advanced sensor suite.
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We'll find out soon enough
As for the Autopilot sensors, based on what Elon has said in the past, I feel chances are good that the MX will have a more advanced sensor suite. It does not mean that the Model S will need to be retrofitted or the more advanced sensor suite will be needed to deliver basic lane changing capability promised with Autopilot, but the enhanced sensor suite will offer additional and more robust capability over the version 1.0 sensors. Ver. 2.0 could only lane change when it is safe to do so while Ver. 1.0 sensors require you to ensure it is safe to change lanes...
For comparison, look at the current sensor coverage of the Model S. It is quite lacking in coverage and range compared to other premium cars.
And then compare the sensor suite of another premium car that offers half the capability of Tesla's autopilot. Ultimately what you can enable and activate with software is only going to be limited by the robustness, range, and coverage of the sensor suite and I bet the Model X will have a more advanced sensor array.
There are many creative things you can do with rear radar... The Mercedes S class for example, if you slam on your brakes, it actually checks the rear radar to see if there is a car behind you. If there is a car that might rear end you, the S Class might not apply full braking power. It will apply just enough braking power to prevent an accident with the car in front of you while offering the car behind you, maximum time and space to slow down and hopefully not crash into you.
Another area is cross traffic situations when you pull into a road or back into a road where you can't see around an obstacle. A more advanced sensor array can help detect traffic you can't quite see yet and the current MS sensor suite isn't sufficient for that.
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Sep 3, 2015
randrave
You might be right, but I think that people are making too much from design studio renderings that are very likely rushed and intended right now for a very tiny, and committed, audience. People are studying them like they're the Zapruder film, breaking down every nuance. My only point is that I wouldn't be surprised if those renderings are not quite accurate.
Or maybe I just find it unfathomable that Tesla could retain the ungainly and useless armrest/console setup from the Model S.....�
Sep 3, 2015
MorrisonHiker On a call back in February, Elon mentioned how the X was repeatedly delayed because they kept adding new features and how they plan to stay on track with the Model 3 by choosing features early on. He also teased a host of other bells and whistles that wouldn't be revealed until launch. So far, we've seen the falcon wing doors, the panoramic windshield and there's a hint about the second row seats being special but I really haven't seen any amazing "bells and whistles" announced. I believe that there are still surprises in store. Perhaps we'll get the Gentex Hybrid Full Display Mirror, 360 degree cameras, additional Autopilot 2.0 hardware or maybe even dimmable windows. Maybe none of these will be offered but these are all bells and whistles that I would consider to be actual "bells and whistles" and could be unveiled later this month. If they don't include some of these features then it could be years before the X or S have a sensor suite comparable to what is already being offered by Mercedes, Volvo, etc. Now is the launch of the new model so it makes sense to me that they should include the new hardware NOW.�
Sep 3, 2015
AmpedRealtor What, in my above post, leads you to believe that I am complaining about anything and need to "let go" of anything? I think you may be confusing me with someone else. I bought my car in 2013 and love it. I'm simply saying that lots of folks back in 2012 went by Elon's word that there would be no major changes to the product for 3-4 years and actually the opposite happened. I was drawing a comparison between those folks back then and folks today saying that there will be no updates to the autopilot sensors for 2-3 years.
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I watched that presentation and did not see what you are talking about. In fact, every time Elon has talked about the processors in the car, he has said that they are actually using only a small portion of the computing power available. I don't think we are anywhere close to maxing out the CPUs in our cars. Not only that, but the Autopilot system doesn't even use the CPU in the touch screen. It has its own CPUs and subsystems that are independent of the main display.�
Sep 3, 2015
Max* My bad, you're right, everyone here is complaining about something, I assumed you're one of them�
Sep 3, 2015
MsElectric I distinctively remember that's not was asserted by the NVidia CEO at least with regards to the graphics chip in the car. Elon was right there. It was something to the effect that Tesla wanted a certain graphics processor for the Model S and how it seemed overkill for a car but already after a couple of years Tesla is desiring more processing power. Given that the Model S was based in circa 2010-2012 CPUs, it is likely they have more processing power in the Model X.
Who knows current Model S VINs might already have updated CPUs... :wink:�
Sep 4, 2015
MarkS22 The nVidia chip is for the graphics display and speed of interactivity (like the media player and web browser). And yes, it's showing its age. I'd love the new cars to have a newer one and offer an upgrade path.
It's believed the Autopilot is being handled by the MobileEye EyeQ3. (Interestingly, nVidia is looking to compete with MobileEye to handle things like pedestrian and sign detection, but it's my understanding MobileEye is doing it for Tesla now.) The next generation EyeQ4 is about two years out for production cars. That's not to say it's impossible for new or incrementally better sensors but I'd expect true Autopilot 2.0 in roughly two years. The EyeQ3 isn't being maxed out yet.
In theory, the existing rear view camera could be integrated into Autopilot. MobileEye does everything with video, as opposed to radar, LIDAR, and ultrasonics. Based on their comments, the ideal future setup would be a cluster of three forward cameras, including at least one narrow field of view and one wide view. Their hardware will be designed to handle this type of setup. Radar would be used for redundancy. EyeQ4 can handle up to eight cameras to build a complete scene.�
Sep 4, 2015
Soolim If it helps in stall parking then it is AP related. How would self parking in a stall be with no other cars beside MS?�
Sep 4, 2015
yak-55 Sorry to have sounded overly dramatic. Certainly the speculation is all good fun, and I enjoy it too. That said, in the context of the thread title, ".... What to expect for the Model S?" I do think we are way ahead of ourselves. Some of the speculation in the thread probably refers to MX content at reveal, and for that car, I would not be surprised by a few (small) goodies ... Eg new headlights, clever seat folding, firmware/software UI (and functionality?) improvements, etc. I would be very surprised if much (if any) of that becomes available to the model S in "the next several months". Tesla will be looking forward to the III after debugging the X. Upgrades to the S will occur ever more slowly (see Roadster experience) as we go forward. One man's opinion/speculation....�
Sep 4, 2015
Max* Self-parking was promised* on the Model S. No 360 degree camera. I'm sure it'll use the front camera and sonar sensors somehow.
I don't have an answer to your comment, but I will say that I honestly didn't think of that scenario, and you're right if it helps with stall parking, it is part of AP, and I'll eat my words.
*I think lots of people are putting WAYYYY too much hope into self-parking. If stall parking is going to be similar to other car manufacturers parallel parking, where you pull up, and line up the box just perfectly and then tell it to park, and it'll make the turn for you. I don't expect it to work in every situation either, just like I don't expect auto-steer to work in every situation, just like TACC doesn't work in every situation.
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Tesla is continually improving. Even while they were waiting for the X to finalize engineering. Look at the Model S in recent months. 3G->LTE is one example. Windshield that allows ezpass, then doesn't allow it, then allows it is another. I'm sure there are a 100 more behind the scenes improvements we don't see.
I wouldn't rule out the Model X improvements from rolling out into the S if they're simple enough (not like the folding seats, lol).�
Sep 4, 2015
AmpedRealtor Well I do complain a lot, just not this one time! LOL�
Sep 4, 2015
Blurry_Eyed I thought I'd post the link to the Model X reveal event from 2012. It's interesting to look at it now - Tesla Model X Reveal - YouTube�
Sep 4, 2015
MarkS22 Most interesting is that, after the Falcon doors, the highlight was the dual motors. To me, this demonstrates the Model S will keep feature parity when applicable/beneficial for a sedan. Another great example of this is the Model S getting a 90kw battery (and Ludicrous) a month sooner.�
Sep 5, 2015
mgboyes And here is the heart of the issue: the X was going to be amazing and fantastic and revolutionary.... when it launched a year ago with autopilot, dual motors, next-gen seats etc, all of which would have made it a quantum leap beyond the summer 2014 Model S.
But the X has been so delayed that all the cool new things that it was intended to have at launch have already been available on the S for over a year. The car we're about to see would have been "amazing" relative to a July 2014 P85, but compared to a July 2015 P90DL it's really just a people carrier.�
Sep 5, 2015
dow Yes, fingers crossed. I suspect you're right.
Advertised 1.0 features will have to be made to work, and made to work safely. They'll be concerned about reliability as a safety issue. To the extent "more reliable lane changing" could be construed as a safety matter, and not seeing far enough in nearby lanes were making it risky enough to make a lane switch, hardware back-porting seems possible.
That said, it may not, and I think you make a good point that they might acquit themselves of "auto lane changing" with a simple implementation in 1.0 and improve it as you describe or in other ways.
For autonomous lane changing, I wonder how much visibility in the rear is the limiting factor, versus processing power and politics.:smile:
Only speculating, of course... I think there is a window in which "better" and "safer" coincide - inside of which, I think they may admit defeat on their "released a year ahead of the software" 1.0 sensor package. They don't want safety incidents with 1.0 that could have been avoided in 2.0 sinking their entire investment in the technology, not to mention, their brand. They already know anything that goes wrong will be catnip to the news, and covered all out of proportion to the tens of thousands of people in the US who die of human error yearly.
What you're saying about competitive sensor packages and systems is interesting.
To me it's unusual if, selling the hardware so far ahead of yourself, and giving up the ability to tweak it in tandem with your software until launch, you can yet pull off your launch. So I will be impressed if Tesla can deliver 1.0 without new hardware. Maybe they can.
For lane changing reliability in particular, I think this might be hair-raising for the safety folks, but I agree what you say could come to pass.
Very cool. And agreed, more good examples of what would be distinctly new features that would justify new hardware.
I would love it if they were progressing that quickly. Who can say for sure? But I end up betting it won't happen, because they're still struggling to ship their 1.0 features. If autosteer slips to 2016, it would not surprise me. Putting a new sensor suite into production, for new unreleased features, when the existing features still aren't out the door, seems wild to me. It's just intuition and rank speculation, but if we see new sensors, my first thought will be a failure to launch 1.0 on the old ones.
Then add in the reports of private beta testing of AP on the existing hardware on open roads... And given 2.0 sensors (and the integrated system they go into) would have had to be in development since 2014 or 2013... And that excellent info on the EyeQ... I think Max is right, and the X sensors will either be the same, or not hugely different.�
Sep 5, 2015
gizmoboy My big 3, in order:
1. 360 camera
2. Ventilated Seats
3. Better AP Hardware
#2 is already here in the X. Possibly all 3.
Just a question of when it (they?) make it to the S...
#4? USB phone integration for media playback (iPhone, specifically); Bluetooth has been hinky for me in my past few cars (though in my 24-hour test-drives in a P85D and P70D it has been very reliable).
#5? Integrated dash-cam option
#6? In-car WiFi Hotspot
#1 I can get aftermarket if I have to, #3 is going to be built in or never. #4-6 all have aftermarket or workaround options already.�
Sep 6, 2015
Urgo What's the aftermarket solution you have in mind for #4?�
Sep 7, 2015
bwa Wild idea: Tesla gives up on autopilot for Model S, offers Model X with autopilot to anybody with Model S that has autopilot hardware and appropriate package that includes it, and takes back those Model S's with a superb trade in value to be resold CPO with advertising to used buyers that they will never have autopilot, and the marketplace gets a bunch of depreciated used Tesla cars on the road in the hands of happy poorer buyers that will take up some of the Model 3 demand, smoothing out the overall marketplace of Tesla model availability.�
Sep 7, 2015
Andyw2100 Ummmm...no.�
Sep 8, 2015
Max* I feel like a broken record, but people still keep doubting Tesla can use the current sensor suite to deliver [most of] what they promised?
Tesla is doing AP beta testing now. Which implies that AP is coming out. It will not work in 100% of situations. Just like TACC doesn't work in 100% of situations.
This is not autonomous driving (Level 3). Considering that the driver needs to be fully aware of the surroundings, even if AP works in 99.9999% situations, they can call it a success.
Self parking (parallel) is easy given the sensor suite. You pull up to a parking space, hit the park button, the car tells you to line up your car with the empty box on the screen, you click go. Once you click go, it's simple geometry. Turn steering wheel one way to a certain angle, pull back a certain distance, turn the other way at a certain angle, keep pulling back a certain distance. Tada you're done.
Stall parking is going to be harder without 360 degee camera or side cameras. But given the AP has a front and rear camera, you can see the stall, click park, and have the car back into it. Also, stall parking may be accomplished by you (the driver) making the first turn to line up the rear camera at least somewhat with the parking spot (line up the box in the rear camera), and have the car finish off the parking job.
I still think most of it is achievable. It might not be as autonmous as the forum members hope, but I don't see any real limitations in the current hardware. People keep thinking that the self parking is going to be some magic button you hit from 17 miles away going sideways, and the car will magically flip you around, steal the parking space from the other person trying to get in it, and park you perfectly 100% of the time. No, that wont happen. It'll assist you, just like AP will assist you in driving. None of it is autonomous.
/soap box�
Sep 8, 2015
gizmoboy #4 falls into the workaround category; dumping itunes library onto USB stick. I think I can dump my audible books as well (haven't explored that as thoroughly as yet, but IIRC, I can also download them into iTunes and then dump them out)�
Sep 8, 2015
vitaliy I can speculate that Model S will get following updates
- New Autopilot hardware (2.0) with some features available immediately and some with software updates
- 90KW will be standard (no more 85KW)
- New processor
- 20" wheel option
- Wiring for future retrofit of side mirrors to cameras
- Updated interior:
- Ventilated seats
- Adjustable seatbelt height
- USB port for back seats
- Center console will be standard
- New options of textiles and trims
- Updated exterior:
- New nose cone design
- LED headlamps
- New exterior colors
�
Sep 8, 2015
MarkS22 I've said it before, but I don't see any significant Autopilot upgrades for several years. Incremental Autopilot 1.1, sure. (Things like 360 camera views, slight improvements like more places to self-park.) But the next leap happens when MobileEye EyeQ4 comes out. The EyeQ3 just came out late last year when Autopilot was announced. The engineering samples for EyeQ4 aren't even out yet, with production expected in about two years. This isn't guessing, but actual road maps from publicly traded companies.
EDIT: The EyeQ4 will allow for 8 camera views, including a cluster of 3 forward (including a wide angle and a detailed narrow FOV for lane markings and small road debris), two cameras on each side, and one rear along with ultrasonic and radar to have a complete, detailed view of the entire car's surroundings. That's what we need for the next level of Autopilot, which I'd call "2.0" and it'll be here eventually, but we're looking at 2017-2018.�
Sep 8, 2015
Urgo Ahh.. yes.. was hopeful for a moment. Thought you had some aftermarket solution that put in an aux in port or something and got excited haha.�
Sep 8, 2015
MsElectric I think you will find yourself to be so wrong about this prediction before long.
Even a high end Ford these days has a better sensor array than a current Model S. The Ford for example has sideways radar that can detect a car 15 yards away as you back out of a driveway or parking spot. To put how limited the Tesla sensors are in perspective, a Ford Taurus (a basic economy car) will know of a car approaching it from the side that is 45 feet away and a Tesla would only know of that car when it is 16 feet away with the current sensor array.
Why are you so fixated on MobileEye and their schedule? Tesla might go for a hybrid sensor array from a variety of different sources as they are a tier-1 integrator of this technology and they do their own software. Tesla might end up going with Drive PX or they might go with a Drive PX, MobileEye, hybrid setup, or they might decide to build their own system. Look at the sensor array of a current S Class. It has stereo vision and multiple redundant levels of long, medium, and short range radar and they are not limited by some arbitrary MobileEye schedule. Why should Tesla be?
I expect Autopilot Ver. 2.0 sensors to be released with the Model X and it will be available in the Model S before long. You can call it ver. 1.1 if it makes you feel better but expect to see a much more robust and capable sensor array in the Model X, and the Model S. Arguably the current sensor array of the Model S is the most limited sensor array in the industry in terms of range and coverage while it promises just about more than anyone else in terms of functionality.
They will delivery basic Autopilot functionality with the existing Ver. 1.0 sensor array but I expect a much more robust sensor array to be released soon.�
Sep 8, 2015
Gizmotoy At some point it's an argument over version numbers, but I agree it doesn't make a ton of sense to say that they're definitively tied to the MobileEye schedule. Even today, as you note, the sensors are limited compared to basic systems on other vehicles. I mentioned it in another thread, but the Model S has rear ultrasonics instead of the millimeter wave radar for blind spot detection that everyone else is using. They're slower and have substantially reduced range. I wouldn't be surprised if the Model X launch brought a sensor revision with what they've learned so far. If not to add new features (the low hanging fruit here are improved blind spot detection and indication and the mentioned cross-traffic detection), than to improve performance and reliability.�
Sep 8, 2015
MorrisonHiker �The X will have a step beyond what we�re currently shipping on the autonomous front,� Musk said. �There are a whole bunch of things about the X that have not been revealed.�
That's about all they mention about it in that article...but it does hint to something more than what the S currently has enabled.�
Sep 8, 2015
Max* That settles that. Seems like MsElectric is likely correct, we'll find out for sure in a few weeks.�
Sep 8, 2015
gizmoboy Now the big question is when does this stuff trickle "down" to the MS?�
Sep 8, 2015
Soolim MX is overkill for my needs. No deal. I speculate it will cost no more than $1,000 extra (Tesla internal cost not consumer price) to get the proper sensors to make the MS version 1 AP work.
- - - Updated - - -
Firstly, we don't know to what extend is the AP beta. Is it just the lane keeping that is being tested? Beta test by EAP is unlikely to include self parking, because the test environment can easily be created right at Tesla parking lot. Just get a few staff to try parking the car is easy enough.
You said stall parking is harder without 360 degree camera, and that is my concern and why I keep saying that present sensors are deficient. Lining up the rear camera with the parking spot correctly is 75% of the job. That should be the job of the AP, not the driver, otherwise why bother?�
Sep 8, 2015
MarkS22 I think we're just defining the word "significant" different. I owned a 2013 Ford Fusion with BLIS. I'm very familiar with the technology. I've been following it for quite some time. My 2002 Infiniti QX4--13 years ago--had radar-based Intelligent Cruise Control.
I've never doubted incremental upgrades. Tesla is known for constantly refining technologies as they go. I'm specifically doubting a major next level of autonomous driving. I think the next things will see will be enhanced ultrasonic sensors, surround view, maybe even a second camera (or a better camera) up front to help with their problems on lane keeping (with white roads and white lines). I just don't see a brand new brain controlling it all.
I don't think the MobileEye schedule is arbitrary. The EyeQ3 can already support new features and some sensor upgrades. I don't think Tesla has the same level of resources to simultaneously work on getting the EyeQ3 working for Autopilot 1.0 while supporting a completely new sensor array and processor. Whether it happens on the X reveal or not, I suspect the next round of Autopilot hardware will be ways to make the EyeQ3 work better, after having tested it for the past year. They'll address all the quirks and "corner cases." EyeQ3 has support for "Surround View," so I see that happening. I also see the addition of pedestrian detection and LED headlamp control (i.e. following the curve of the road). Now, I consider those "1.1" features... not "2.0" but it's semantics. Maybe we're already thinking the same thing.
Simply, they have some way to go before even maxing out the current system already being installed, so I think we'll see that first. If they add a lot more (or new processors)... awesome. I will be very pleasantly surprised.�
Sep 9, 2015
davidc18 Not expecting this to ever happen but it would work for our family. We currently are limited by having two child seats in the back. The X would be perfect.
�
Sep 9, 2015
Max* I gave a sample use case, I could be 100% wrong and Tesla created a more sophisticated approach by... whatever. I could also be 100% wrong, and they could just not give stall parking due to lack of hardware. Though I really do believe it's doable, and that it wont be as pretty as everyone on the forums hopes.
Question: What's the big deal about AP and stall parking? I understand it was promised, that taken aside. How hard is it to stall park? I feel like it would be faster for me to to park the car in a stall myself, then line up the car, hit a button and wait for it to slowly roll back in.
To be fair, same for parallel parking FOR ME. A lot of people don't know how to parallel park, so I can see where they want the car to do it for them.�
Sep 9, 2015
MsElectric I'd say most Model X features will make it to the Model S within 6 months, as the Model S is their bread and butter and it would be horrible if potential Model S buyers sit on the sidelines before the Model X goodies make it to the Model S.
I bet already a bunch of potential Model S customers are waiting on the sidelines for the Model X launch and the subsequent enhancements to the Model S.
While they ramp up production of the Model X (which is likely to take months), they can't afford to have a slowdown of Model S sales so once they get the MX out of the door I'm sure they will prioritize transferring the new technology to the MS. As an added benefit, it simplifies their supply chain and production the more technology and parts the two vehicles share.�
Sep 9, 2015
vitaliy I agree.
Just added a poll to this thread, let's see how many of us are waiting�
Sep 9, 2015
Urgo
Sort of.. I was waiting about a month until the design studio went live to place the order. My order confirms today and should be delivered around the time/shortly after the X's start coming out so was hoping anything that's coming soon they might just add to my S90D as well. If it's going to be six months oh well will get those features in my next car.�
Sep 9, 2015
Soolim Since it is promised, then it should be delivered. I can see the challenges in lane keeping as it deals with road pavement marking, weather condition, and the danger to life and safety, so I am willing to give them some slack. I keep asking myself, if the sensors are sufficient, and software update by OTA is the practice, why can't Tesla not incrementally release the AP with the self parking first? Would you not agree that self parking should be a piece of cake for Tesla (since it is older technology), and after 10 months, unless they encountered some unforeseen H/W difficulty?�
Sep 9, 2015
Max* I do not agree. It's not indicative of anything besides their priorities.
I have had a decent nav for... o.... I dunno maybe 12 years now. Teslas nav is a joke, even though they're based on Google maps.
Don't you think if evtripplanner could do such a good job at estimating charge and navigating through superchargers that Tesla would have updated their crazy beta route planning?
All of those are easy to do, but they have their priorities elsewhere.�
Sep 9, 2015
Soolim So besides generating more new sales, getting potential buyers to place reservations $ with zero interest (not that it matters since the interest is so low these days), what is your view on Tesla's priorities?�
Sep 9, 2015
Max* Getting new sales sums it up pretty well.�
Sep 10, 2015
Soolim That is, even if self parking is easier to do, it is not Tesla's priority.�
Sep 29, 2015
dow Short on details, but looks like X has side-facing sensors and what sounded like active collision avoidance based on steering as well as breaking.
Congrats MsElectric! You called it.
�
Sep 29, 2015
MarkS22 Tesla Rolls Out Improved v7.0 Software Update to Beta Testers - TESLARATI.com
Side Collision Warning has been shown in the release notes of Version 7.0 using the current Autopilot 1.0 hardware on the Model S. I think we're going to still have to wait to see if there are significant Autopilot hardware upgrades.
EDIT: Tesla's Model X is finally here, and I got to drive it | The Verge
"As with recent builds of the Model S, the X features Autopilot � Tesla's semi-autonomous driving system � and the company says that both vehicles will stay in lockstep as Autopilot becomes more advanced and new software builds roll out."
And there we have it. No Autopilot upgrades over the Model S.�
Sep 29, 2015
travwill According to "The Verge" at least that drove and interviewed Tesla on the topic, states that "The cars will stay in lock-step" as far as autopilot software/functionality improvements. That and from the limited reveal tonight, seems like the same AP hardware. Same IC/main display hardware, etc. Makes sense.
They did state some slight main display spec improvements to improve touch/clarity - but no snappier, etc.�
Sep 29, 2015
MarkS22 Yes, I seemed to be in the minority here that they wouldn't upgrade the X's Autopilot hardware significantly when they're still working on getting 1.0 fully functional. Maybe there will be some enhancements that come to light, but it doesn't appear (from articles like "The Verge" and the launch event) that there's anything significant.
EDIT: Also further confirmation from Tesla's official press release for the event: "Every Model X carries a forward-looking camera, radar, and 360 degree sonar sensors to enable advanced autopilot features. Tesla's over-the-air software updates regularly improve the sophistication of these features, enabling increasingly capable safety and convenience features like Autosteer and Autopark, and bringing the Model X ever closer to autonomous operation." As you can see, no additional cameras ("forward looking camera"), no mention of additional radar, and the same 360 sonic sensors. Based upon this, the announcement, The Verge, and many photos of the car from the event, I see not a single upgrade to Autopilot.�
Sep 29, 2015
Cerie I'm a little disappointed that the X didn't feature the upgraded steering wheel that one of the beta models had at a car show. I can't remember exactly which but the steering wheel had little screens where the buttons are now.�
Sep 29, 2015
MarkS22 My biggest (and pretty much only) complaint about the Model S is that the GPU needs a serious overhaul. Musk once commented that people shouldn't have fast phones and tablets, then get into their car and be disappointed. Well, the iPad Air 2 (almost a year old now) is orders of magnitude faster and more responsive and costs only $499 at retail. There's no excuse not to regularly upgrade that CPU/GPU for the UI. Visually, I think the main display is fine, but an OLED with true blacks would be helpful for night driving.�
Sep 30, 2015
Max* Sadly that's the only AP change it appears.
No 360 degree cameras. No stereoscopic front camera. No rear radar. No side radars. Sigh...
S/he was correct, but I think s/he was also expecting a major overhaul, which we did not get.�
Sep 30, 2015
vitaliy Any chance panoramic windshield will appear on Model S?�
Sep 30, 2015
Max* I don't see how the panoramic windshield could co-exist with the sunroof. If it does (my WAG is it wont), it might be a one-or-the-other option.�
Sep 30, 2015
Soolim Where are the side facing sensors located? Are they in addition to the once on the side of the front and rear bumpers?�
Sep 30, 2015
MorrisonHiker Darn I was expecting at least something to be improved over the S as far as AP is concerned. Elon was quotes 6+ months ago that it would be a step above the S so perhaps he was only referring to the new side-facing sensors. Yesterday, I heard quotes that the X and S would have the same features...but still held out hope that it meant both would be receiving upgraded hardware. Looking at the Design Studio, there is no mention at all of autopilot features for the X yet the S still has a large part of the page mentioning it.
While the X looks nice, it doesn't have all (any) of the bells and whistles I was hoping for. Chances are higher today that I will be going for an S instead of an X. Then again, I guess that's what they want in order to boost their quarter 4 numbers. Hmph.�
Sep 30, 2015
Max* Hold on, look here, are those stereoscopic cameras on the front of the Model X?
�
Sep 30, 2015
MarkS22 There's zero evidence so far that the new side ultrasonic is used for anything other than door height.
We need to wait and see. I don't believe the middle of the door is an optimal Autopilot sensor location. It is, however, a necessary location for the Falcon wing detecting ceiling height.
Autopilot 1.0 already has 360 degree ultrasonics and 7.0 firmware release notes show the S with the same "Side Collision Avoidance" upgrade.
EDIT: I would also suggest an ultrasonic behind metal would severely harm its long-range abilities and its field of view. For a mission-critical function that requires maximum range at high speeds, I wouldn't share a sensor with a slow, short-range static ceiling detector.�
Sep 30, 2015
dow I may have spoken too soon. The reason for my initial reaction was the speech at the event specifically called out sensor coverage on the sides and side-collision avoidance, which the S does not have. The implication being, 4 people at least drove away with X's that already have this feature today, and that's a separate issue from lane following (which will ship on both models at once, supposedly).
Obviously this is not a huge difference in AP hardware/capabilities even if true. But the question becomes, is it even true? Or is this confusion on Elon's part in the speech - and this is just the same feature that the S will have with 7.0, and the X does not actually have it now, at launch, either?�
Sep 30, 2015
MarkS22 I think it's safe to say the Model X did not launch with Autopilot 2.0, much less Autopilot 1.1. No matter how you slice or dice it, there are no announced or observed enhancements to Autopilot hardware at the launch event. The press release from last night lists the exact same hardware as the original Autopilot. Furthermore, Tesla has made it clear the X and S will have feature parity on Autopilot. So, when a hardware upgrade comes, both models will start coming off the line with it.
On another thread, someone stated Autopilot was disabled on Elon's car despite having 7.0 software. Because of this, I do not believe it has been activated yet and they didn't want his car to be showing beta software. I believe it will be "turned on" in about a month at the same time for both the S and the X. (Of course, it's highly likely the first 4 Founders would be invited into the beta program.)
Again, the Model S 7.0 Release Notes specify "Blind Spot Prevention" has been upgraded to "Side Collision Avoidance." Yesterday was Tesla's first official announcement of the feature, but it was previously leaked as a feature for the Model S with Autopilot 1.0 hardware. I don't see any reason why "Side Collision Avoidance" on the S and X would be called the same exact thing and function differently.
I have never doubted incremental upgrades. However, I always highly doubted that the hardware would splinter before 1.0 was fully utilized. At this point, we should turn the speculation to when we'll see Autopilot 2.0 on both the S and X. Eventually we will see new Autopilot hardware, but it wasn't with the X launch. My prediction is that we'll see major Autopilot upgrades as their own announcements, independent of car model.�
Sep 30, 2015
robby The most compelling feature I'd love to see moved over is the new air filter. The only negative experience I regularly have in my Tesla is being stuck behind garbage trucks and scooters/motorcycles. Of everything shown, this is what I'd most like to see brought over. I'd happily pay to retrofit it, but I highly doubt that will be doable.�
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