Apr 8, 2012
neroden I've told three different represenatives how deeply offensive this is to Sig and Perf customers.�
Apr 8, 2012
ckessel I think the most likely trades are Sig/Perf customers that want 19" trading with base model buyers that want 21" for something like $2500. The Sig/Perf customers get a partial rebate and the base model customers get the tires at a discount. The timing problem of course being the fact that Sig customers get their's much earlier than base model customers, but Perf customers won't have that timing issue (other than just trying to coordinate with another Model S customer with a similar P #).
I'm not sure I feel offended exactly, though obviously I feel strongly. It's all business in the end, but I think it's possibly an unfortunate business choice in this case. I'm glad you brought it to their attention though and I encourage those in a similar position to do the same. Politely of course. Tesla has shown they do monitor the board and do listen, so there's always hope.
So, more on topic, if I get a Perf one value-add thing I may have for trade is the ability to get a base model buyer the carbon gray rims!�
Apr 8, 2012
neroden Thank you. Three comments up I decided to make an outright offer because it looks like Tesla execs have simply chosen to do the wrong thing on this, though I do encourage them to change their minds. It's the sort of thing which leaves a bad taste in my mouth about the company's attitudes towards business; if George Blankenship is reading, *this sort of pricing mess is not how you sell iPods*.
Edit: I think what's really offensive to me about it is the utterly pointless environmental waste of the extra, gratuitous transport and handling involved in the trading. But the monetary savings are significant enough that it may well be worth it.�
Apr 8, 2012
ckessel Mods, I don't want to derail this (again) on the wheel pricing issue, but what's the appropriate forum for talk on it? Wheel trading is so intricately tied to Tesla's pricing, so it's related, but maybe this belongs in a pricing thread somewhere?
Mod note: Thanks for the heads up! b.�
Apr 9, 2012
tdelta1000 Here's that link: Wheel-trading Thread�
Apr 9, 2012
jcstp I do not know if you guys know that by choosing those 19" wheels, you will not be able to get the full performance of the performance models! 19" are not so wide as the 21", whith as consequence has less rubber on the road = less grip = slower acceleration = more stress on the tires = more tiredegradation�
Apr 9, 2012
mnx Jerry33 dispelled that myth on this thread: Is 4.4 seconds vs 5.6 seconds alone worth $10k?
"The contact patch area is load per wheel divided by psi. so if the load per wheel is 1000 lbs and the tires are inflated to 50 psi (for ease of math) then the contact patch is 20 square inches. In a tire has 5 inches of tread width then the contact patch is 4 inches long (actually there is a slight ovalness to the contact patch which is dependent on the stiffness of the belts, but for rough estimating 5 x 4 will do). If the tread width is 7 inches then the contact patch length is 2.9 inches.
The trick here is "all things being equal". All things aren't equal because the tread compound and the belt construction are likely to be different between the two tires. So the wide tire may stop shorter, but that won't be due to the wider width. Tire design is actually very complex."
�
Apr 9, 2012
jkirkebo Both the 19" and the 21" are 245 wide, so identical there. Only sidewall height differs, with the 19" having 1" taller sidewalls than the 21".�
Apr 9, 2012
jcstp I think I saw on a photo of the tires on model X, that model X 21" has higher sidewalls compared to model S 21"�
Apr 9, 2012
jcstp I thought 19" was 7" wide and 21" 7.5" wide�
Apr 9, 2012
Mycroft Again, given the same performance tires on the 19" and 21", the ONLY difference between the two is the slightly enhanced cornering handling and stability with the 21" wheels.�
Apr 9, 2012
bonnie Mod note: I thought this was a thread on Tesla's wheel pricing packages ... changed the thread title to reflect the meandering over into tire performance.�
Apr 9, 2012
ElSupreme Ok the 19" and 21" WHEELS are different widths. But the tires as far as anyone can tell are both 245 wide. So tire width and contact patch for both size wheels will be stupidly close.
I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Can someone name ANY car manufacturer that will give you a credit when you upgrade package and it comes with bigger/more costly wheels? I cant. Hell it seems that EVERY Audi has a package that comes with upgraded wheels, and according to their builder if you 'downgrade' the wheels you still pay the package price. Sure I would be a little sore about paying for wheels that I don't want but this is the way packages work.
Hell I am basically paying $3,700 just for HID headlamps. I could care less about everything else there (ok, I sort of want the maps but wouldn't pay more than about $250 for them). Why can't I get a downgrade in price for home link and the HD rearview camera? Because it is a package they bundle loss/low profit items with high profit items in packages.�
Apr 9, 2012
bonnie Way to pull the two discussions together, ElS. Thanks!
�
Apr 9, 2012
78Lion To our detriment, it's a pretty common practice in the industry. Before stepping back to reassess the purchase decision, I was looking at replacing a '03 E320 with an "11 E350. To get the keyless go I wanted, I had to by a second level premium package at $6400. The combined package had a few things I wanted but many I could do without. A more than 10% uptick in the cost of the car is robbery. Audi is very similar in its packaging.
It does make the assembly line more efficient by putting these packages together versus 50 or so builds if they are available factory installed as single options.�
Apr 9, 2012
ckessel El Supreme, I do understand your point. For me the defining issues/differences are:
1) It's about what make sense rather than any comparison to other vendors. Tesla has set up a dual pricing scheme for tires which makes no sense to me. If you want to make a comparison, Tesla often touts themselves as being more like a tech company than a car company so let's compare it to building a computer. If you build a computer from almost any big tech vendor, you can downgrade and get credit for the parts you downgrade (e.g. smaller disk drive, cpu, etc).
It's that "pay for what you choose" build-a-computer experience that informs my view. If I get a more expensive item, I pay more. If I get a less expensive item, I pay less. The beauty is the simplicity and transparency of it.
2) Downgrading to the 19" tires is desirable for many people due to the nature of tires and not just the cost. With other upgrade packages, there may be things you don't care about, but it'd be hard not to classify them as superior than their basic counterpart (e.g. improved headlights). Not caring about an upgrade is different from the case where 19" tires have distinct advantages beyond cost.
3) Tesla specifically offers a downgrade option on the tires. Tesla does not offer selective downgrades of the items in the tech package. No one is asking Tesla to create an option they don't already provide, we're only asking they charge for what's actually delivered. Again, that beautifully simple "pay for what you get" approach.�
Apr 9, 2012
BYT_P1837 To defend some of those on here who are upset that they can't downgrade, I for one understand it because I have never purchased a luxury car before. The Model S will be my first as the most luxurious car I drove before that was my 2003 Honda Accord V6-EX w/Leather (nope, not even an Acura). Hearing that this is more common practice in the luxury car market makes more sense to me and something I wasn't aware of as I didn't have this experience.
ckessel also has a point in regards to Elon wanting to be different and push that TM is more of a technology company then that of a car company. On the other hand, unlike a technology giant like Dell or HP who sell's millions of units and get's huge discounts on parts, TM doesn't have the purchasing power that these big guys have. Even Apple, Inc spill's millions of dollars ahead of a product launch to pre-purchase screens and solid state drives. The profit margins are much smaller when you are only ordering no more then 5,000 unit's at a time. Most of the big vendors wouldn't even accept an order that small as so TM has to work with the little guys with promises of growing together. In the mean time TM has to bundle and save where they can.
I am a very humble earner and my dream specifications on a Model S would almost take my whole annual paycheck to cover if I paid it off in cash. How many times has Elon said however that he is selling a premium sport in the Roadster first then a luxury sedan in the Model S after that to help fund future, more affordable cars like Bluestar? If you don't want to spend the extra on the Signature or Performance model cars then stick to a production with the 85K battery and choose the options you really want. Otherwise, why are we getting upset over $2k or $3k here and there when you look at what you are getting? The Model S will be a car like no other, safe, powerful, and a head turner for a while to come. Don't get me wrong, $3k is a lot, I couldn't even get myself to upgrade my iPad to the 3rd generation as it wasn't worth it to me. The Model S is a different animal entirely and I open it up to anyone to argue the points I made. Isn't all just perspective in the end, and I'm just saying, take a different angle when looking at this.
P.S. Sorry for the super long post.�
Apr 9, 2012
mnx I knew you'd reply ckessel
As a consumer I agree with you. As a shareholder I agree with they way they are doing things now. For the short and long term viability of the company I want them to make as much money as possible so they can continue making electric cars. If they cave into every request like this there will never be a Bluestar.
�
Apr 9, 2012
ckessel As a stakeholder, your agreement is based on an assumption that their choice will net more money than my suggested pricing choice.
Is that assumption true? I can say Tesla is losing money due to the choice in one case: mine. I won't be getting the Perf model with the choice as it stands. It pushes the effective price differential (all other options the same) between base and perf beyond my comfort zone. It moves it from a $8500 upgrade to a $12000 upgrade. They'd sell a $8500 more expensive Perf car to me if they changed their policy.
So, Tesla is losing out on $8500 from me. The question is, how many cases like mine match up with the additional profit margin on Tesla's 21" tires? Tesla isn't in the tire business, I'd think the margin difference on the 21" tires vs. the 19" isn't all that significant.
Their choice may very well be losing you value as shareholder. We really have no way to know.
I would suspect the profit difference to Tesla to be incredibly small either way, so to my mind that would argue for providing the downgrade credit since if it's a wash then they might as well be as customer friendly as possible.�
Apr 9, 2012
strider I think it goes back to who their expected customer is/will be. If the bulk of their customers will be previous/potential BMW, Audi, MB, Cadillac buyers then they are used to things being packaged this way. I would echo the question, does any car manufacturer give you a credit for downgrading parts in a package? I don't know of one. Let's face it, with modern JIT inventory and assembly lines, manufacturers could easily have every but and bolt be different from one car to the next with very little cost. This is about profit. The same can be said about cable and satellite providers. There's no technical reason I can't pick and choose individual channels yet these companies require you to purchase a bundle (case in point, I want Speed Channel to watch motorcycle racing. I couldn't give two shakes about football, baseball, etc yet I have to buy the entire sports package form Comcast to get one channel). It's just the way it is today. You can piss and moan about it but there are no alternatives (yes, I could watch races on my computer but that's a PITA for me).�
Apr 9, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Great analogy, strider! We do pay well over $80 bucks a month for Speed (for me - fantastic MotoGP race at Qatar yesterday btw!) and Lifetime Movie Network (for the wife!) which is all we watch on top of network TV (that could be had for < $20 or even less with Hulu Plus w/ Roku). It's mostly for profit but, also, it does support certain channels - whether one watches them or not - which would never get enough advertising revenue to survive but, that's beside the point.
ckessel, Tesla's probably not expecting to lose a lot of could-be-perf-upgrade folks like you because of the wheel disconnect. They could definitely be proven wrong but, 21" seems great, atleast on paper, to show off one's perf EV.�
Apr 9, 2012
ckessel Right, if we look purely at the numbers, will they lose money or gain it if they make a change? If they'd lose money, well, that's a no-brainer to keep the pricing as is. If they'd gain money, that's also a no-brainer. If it's a wash, then why not change it and make a few folks like me happy?
It can't all be about "what other manufacturers do". Other manufacturers also only offer a gas engine. And I wouldn't hold up a cable company's approach as an example of customer service done well... :tongue: Tesla has made changes in the past based on feedback, such as some interior combinations added in for Sig/Perf customers, changes that might have had some bottom line impact to Tesla.
I'm easily swayed by numbers. What do the numbers say on this? Would it be a monetary gain or a loss? There just isn't much way to know though, so all I can do is lay out what I think makes the most sense and hope.�
Apr 9, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla If you have the time for it, a formal petition - a la Wido's 3-phase charging campaign that succeeded - may not be a bad idea? It should be easy enough to put a package together for GeorgeB and others in quick time?�
Apr 9, 2012
stopcrazypp Actually, I frequently order computers at Dell, and you don't really get an option to "downgrade". The only thing you can do is start ordering at a minimum spec and upgrade only the things you want (but you might miss out on some discounts that higher specs get). You can't start at a spec that is higher and "downgrade" because there that option isn't provided (this applies to processor, harddrive, monitor options etc.).
The only difference is Tesla is giving the extra option to "downgrade" (albeit without credit).�
Apr 9, 2012
dsm363 As frustrating as this is for some, this really only applies to Signature customers and to the performance model (most expensive regular production model). Basically this provides extra cash for Tesla up front when they need it most to start production. It looks like not enough Signature customers canceled due to this issue since they sold out the signature series.�
Apr 9, 2012
Tesla 940 I just can't help myself - I'm absolutely amazed at what some people write.
ALMOST my whole annual paycheck - WOW - I sure a lot of people would love to have your income! Thank God you are so " very humble". ROTFLMAO�
Apr 9, 2012
BYT_P1837 Where I live, it's barely Middle Class man... and I am humble...�
Apr 9, 2012
ckessel That's the part I'm contending may or may not be true.
Just considering the Perf buyers (forget Sig owners, they're already resigned to paying a premium). Further, we only need to consider Perf customers that had a desire for 19" tires as the buyers committed to the 21" have no impact on the equation.
A = $ made due to margin if a Perf customer takes the 19" tires (would anyone really do this or would they get the 21" and sell/swap?)
B = $ made due to margin if a Perf customer takes the 21" tires even though they wanted the 19".
C = $ lost due to folks like me where a lack of wheel credit pushes the Perf out of contention
Is A+B > C? Tesla only makes more money if that's true.�
Apr 9, 2012
dsm363 I agree with you. We don't know if this is a good thing for Tesla financially or not. Maybe it was just the easiest with ordering parts so far ahead of accepting orders. People who put a deposit down have not indicated which model they want (other than Signature reservation holders) so maybe Tesla felt it was easier to just order 2,000 sets of 21" rims to start and work from there. In the future, the only model this will be a problem on is the premium performance model so they're probably betting the performance wheels are what most of those customers would want.�
Apr 9, 2012
Jeeps17 +1 to that!
I would definetly sign such a petition. In my case, I am leaning towards the performance model, but with the weather in Montreal the 21' tires would not be at their peak performance for more than 2-4 months per year... (and potentially unsafe due to outside temperature) not to mention what repeated freeze-thaw cycles do to our pavement.
It's a not much bang for a $3,500 premium.
I do need a set of winter rims, hoping to work something out come purchase time, but Tesla-approved "tire packages" would be great.
JP�
Apr 9, 2012
jerry33 The example numbers were chosen for ease of math, not to reflect any particular tire or vehicle.
The nominal section width of both 19" and 21" tires is 245 mm when mounted on the measuring rim. The actual rim width that Tesla is using is wider (This is typical. Measuring rim width is chosen to comply with the TRA, ETRTO, or JTRTO published standards.) For best handling and ride comfort the rim width should be equal to the tread width. This allows the sidewall to have such a good shape for absorbing road irregularities and allowing the cornering forces to be transmitted from the wheels to the tread with the minimum amount of deformity. Which is why the actual rim width is wider than the measuring rim.
We know the tread width of the Goodyear because Goodyear publishes it, but Continental doesn't publish the tread width (I don't think anyone has contacted the Continental technical folks yet. When someone does we will then have the number) so we don't know the "official" number for the 21" tire. However, the 21" tire will almost certainly have a wider tread width than the 19" because tires become more "square" as the aspect ratio decreases.�
Apr 9, 2012
jerry33 I wouldn't want to bet on that (depending upon what you mean by stupidly close). I'm going to go out on a limb and say there will be about half an inch wider tread on the 21" tire. This is because as the profile gets lower the tires more closely approximate a rectangle (the tread width gets closer to the nominal section width). I feel rather confident about this because the 21" wheel has a half inch wider rim width.
You're correct about the contact patch area because that's dependent upon inflation pressure, not tire dimensions (the shape of the contact patch is dependent upon tire dimensions). So as long as the tire pressures are equal, the contact patches will be equal.�
Apr 9, 2012
neroden This is absolutely correct. I realize that other car companies "do it wrong", I don't particularly like that either, but you can go into the dealer and haggle with them about it. Since Tesla doesn't do that, the fact that they're "doing it wrong" becomes much more obvious.
This is also correct. Since the 19" wheels are clearly superior to the 21" wheels for many situations, the only way to view the "included 21" wheel option" is as an increased premium for the package. Almost everything else in the package has to be viewed as an upgrade, whether it's one you want or not (I do know some people actively dislike leather seats, so there's that, and the multi-coat paint job isn't an upgrade if you want a different color). The 21" wheels are objectively inferior unless you're obsessed with looks, so I have to UPgrade from the 21" wheels to the 19" aeros in order to get the car "fully loaded".
The Sig premium is basically $5550 (treating the 19" aeros as the superior option), assuming you get white paint -- $7050 if you get black. That's pretty sizeable for "somewhat more leather" and "earlier". For me it's still worth it because of my allergies, but it seems *odd*. The Performance premium is higher -- $10500 -- but you get a Performance car from it.
It's worth noting that the difference in price between the two types of wheels on the Standard is $2000, a rather large amount. The inferior-except-for-aesthetics wheels cost $2000 more. Curious, that. The price difference is large enough to create this ridiculous wheel-trading market.
Tires/wheels are also ridiculously easy to swap in and out (without invalidating the warranty); there is no technical excuse for treating them as "included", whereas there is such a technical production-line reason on the tech package items. The swappability is also why this is an area where it makes no sense to do 'you gotta buy this' deals.
The pricing scheme makes it glaringly obvious that *either* people getting the Perf or the Sig with 19" wheels are being gouged on price, or that people getting the Standard with 21" wheels are being gouged on price.
It's one or the other, the way Tesla's set it up. That's not smart. It's fine to maximize profit, but make it a little less obvious when you're gouging us, OK? :wink: Leave the customer with the illusion that he's being given a fair deal.�
Apr 9, 2012
3lectronica The contact patch is not the only factor in performance. Tire performance varies widely due to different compounds. Performance tires have stickier rubber for better grip in cornering and stopping. The 19" Goodyear Eagle RSA2 are optimized for all-around use. The 21" Continentals are optimized for acceleration, cornering and stopping, while still offering a low level of rolling resistance. If a Performance customer downgrades to the 19" wheels, I bet the 0-60mph times will suffer. Proof is in Roadster owners who are using snow treads (extreme example) mentioning slower performance. The side effect of 21" wheels will be lower range than advertised.�
Apr 9, 2012
jerry33 +1 :smile:�
Apr 9, 2012
spatterso911 Well, time to chime in here.
In order to sort this out, at least in my head, I had to establish some specific rules. Tesla has multiple goals in place. They need to use the Model S to fund the progress of the line and thusly the progress of the company. Signature buyers are fully aware of this fact and by virtue of the fact that they are the well-deserved early adopters (many of you have been diligently following this process for YEARS and have a real vested desire to see Tesla (and perhaps even vested enough to see TSLA) succeed, they are willing to pay extra to get the car very early and be a part of the buzz. Reward is greater than Risk.
Performance people are looking for vehicles that exceed the performance of either their current ride, or at the very least, match or come close to the performance of their current ride. They know that that performance does not come cheaply and are used to paying a premium for the performance oriented options even if the trade off is ride quality, mileage, or tire longevity. The benefit is, their vehicle comes equipped with all the tools necessary to maximize performance. Reward is greater than Risk here too.
So, lets continue on with how this plays out.
First, lets remove the Sig equation. It is designed to provide maximum profitability at the outset, so that the rest of the manufacturing ramp up can be financed by the sales. It's likely why the number is fixed at 1000 vs 1500 vs 2000 vs 500. Some advanced math is absolutely involved in this decision.
Next, lets remove the Performance equation. It is designed as a PERFORMANCE model. They are always trading performance for utility. The fact that they come standard with 21" wheels makes perfect sense, because that is more performance oriented, more sporty in appearance, and it balances the equation. Wanting the 19" wheels makes sense for practical reasons (weather, tire selection) but not sport reasons, as there are plenty of 21" performance tires available.
Now we are left with the production versions. They all come standard with 19" wheels. To get the 21" wheels, you should have to pay more. It's simple economics. If there were no performance version, and all vehicles came with 19" wheels, no one would complain at a costly wheel upgrade. You either pay or you don't. Same thing goes for CF upgrades. I'm certain there will be aftermarket options available soon, and they won't be cheap, by a long shot. Just look at what is available for the roadster.
The fact that Tesla offers 19" wheels for any and all models is great, but ultimately if you offered only 21" wheels for all models, those that want 18" or 19" wheels will simply buy them and commit garage storage for winter use. This issue was huge on the LR3 forums, given that Land Rover does not offer 18" wheels for the HSE, but anyone who off-roads regularly knows that 18" wheels with Coopers are a great set up and ideal for off-roading. Lot's of wheel trading to get that combination going on, and many people bought 18" wheels and tires to swap when they wanted to go on a trek.
The optimal solution is to offer multiple models with 19" wheels, and make everyone pay for the 21" upgrade. Including the Sig and Performance owners, which jacks up the Sig and Performance equations.�
Apr 9, 2012
onlinespending even that's not entirely true. BMW and Mercedes don't even "do it wrong". The BMW M3/M5 allows for upgrading to a performance wheel, and can be done so individually or as part of an additional package. You pay to upgrade, and aren't forced into the highest price wheel but don't get any relief if you go with lower-end wheels as with the Model S. Also the Mercedes AMG series offers 4 wheel options each priced differently. It's not as if they charge you for the most expensive one without a change in price if you were to select one of the lower-end ones. So perhaps other companies "do it wrong", but not the two big luxury car makers that Tesla is trying to compete with in certain respects.�
Apr 9, 2012
ckessel Interesting, hopefully that speaks to folks that were asking what other vendors give a credit. As you noted, it's not really a credit, but it is a single consistent pricing model where cost is based on what you get, which is probably the real concept that I'm actually in favor of (a credit for 21"->19" was a means to that end).�
Apr 9, 2012
ElSupreme You can upgrade individually to 3 wheels with the Telsa Model S too. Sure they aren't offering the performance wheel seperately like BMW and MB. But MB and BMW do EXACTLY the same thing as Tesla. They have packages where you get bigger wheels. And I can't even find a way to downgrade them. Much less get a credit for them. I can buy 21" wheels for $3500, I can buy 19" aero for $1500.
Look the Performance wheels probably cost Tesla about $500 more than the 19" wheels. They are including they $3500 adder to add profit to their probably no margin MCC unit upgrade. This is standard practice in MANY industries. You bundle the high margin stuff with low/no margin items with high value so you can profit.
You are not being shorted $3500 dollars when you buy the package. You are forced to give Tesla profit. The people who buy the wheels outright are getting ripped off not you.�
Apr 9, 2012
onlinespending For the base Model S you can choose 3 wheels, "not upgrade individually" to 3 wheels. You'd be able to upgrade from the standard 19" wheels to 2 other wheel choices. And Tesla does offer the performance wheel separately for the base model, as opposed to what you said. The BMW M5 is essentially BMW's performance version of its 5 series. So is the AMG series for Mercedes-Benz. And those performance cars allow you to individually upgrade to performance wheels. Hell, the AMG allows 4 different wheel choices all at different prices. Again, as I said before, this is in stark contrast to how the Performance Model S is being handled. Charging you for the highest price wheel regardless of which option you go with. Not sure what you were trying to say there, because there was a lot of misinformation in it.�
Apr 9, 2012
ckessel If anything, I'd think the tires would have the lowest margin since Tesla is a pure reseller and has no value add on that item, unlike the others in the perf package (air suspension, leather interior, Tesla's proprietary powertrain upgrade).
I really have no idea of course, no special insight, I'd just suspect Tesla's biggest money makers would be the things they control rather than resell.�
Apr 9, 2012
ElSupreme This is what you get on a base 328i Coupe:
V Spoke (Style 338) 17 x 8.0 light alloy wheels, 225/45 run-flat[SUP]1[/SUP] all-season tires
This is what you get on a base M Coupe:
Double Spoke (Style 219M) Bright Silver finish M light alloy wheels, 18 x 8.5 front, 18 x 9.5 rear; 245/40 front and 265/40 rear performance tires[SUP]1
[/SUP]
This is what you get on a base 528i Sedan:
Star Spoke (Style 327) 17 x 8.0 light alloy wheels, 225/55 run-flat[SUP]1[/SUP] all-season
This is what you get on a base M5 Sedan:
19" M light-alloy wheels Double-spoke 345M with mixed tyres (from BMW Corporate site because USA doesn't have specs)
How are these the same wheels? I can't see how you can even get 17" wheels on the M Coupe! Much less 17" wheels on an M5! Tesla lets you get the smaller wheels if you want! Sure you don't get money back but at least you have the choice.
All your other comments are based on the NUMBER of choices. And no you can't get the grey 'Performance Wheel' as an option. You can get a 21" wheel that is silver. Sure you can get bigger wheels on the performance BMWs but they already come with bigger wheels.�
Apr 9, 2012
ElSupreme Lets do this thought exercise ... Tesla buys 19" wheels for $500 each. They put them on their car. Tesla buys 21" wheels for $750 each. They charge $3,500 for them, but they only cost an additional $1000. That is $2,500 of PURE PROFIT. You don't have to make something to put a 350% markup on it.
I am not saying these numbers are correct, but I would bet money that wheel upgrades are cash cows for auto manufacturers.�
Apr 9, 2012
spatterso911 My point exactly. I don't ever remember having a choice with M5 wheels with exception to painted vs. chrome plated. Certainly never had an option for 18" wheels, and if so, there would be no refund coming my way.
Edit1: Chrome was significantly more expensive, by the way...�
Apr 9, 2012
stopcrazypp I was about to post the same thing but you did the research for me :wink:. People are making the wrong analogy. Other makes provide more expensive wheel options for their Performance models, but that's not the same as making base wheels available (they obviously aren't). The only difference Tesla is doing is allow you to downgrade back to base wheels (albeit with no money back).�
Apr 9, 2012
ckessel And I could run a thought exercise that says Tesla makes no money on wheel upgrades. We're purely making up numbers though, so I'm not sure what knowledge that gains us.�
Apr 9, 2012
stopcrazypp Nope. I went and tried out your configuration. The Shelby GT500 comes stock with 820A wheels. The 821A wheels ("Tarnished" wheels) are optional (a $3495 option). What you are doing is removing that option, not actually downgrading wheels that came standard with the car.
The correct analogy would be if you can downgrade the GT500 to the 18" GT wheels or the 17" V6 wheels, but you don't get that option. You can only option higher and not lower (I looked at the GT and it's the same case, you can't opt for 17" wheels).
And given Ford is charging $3.5k for a slightly different wheel color and style, it makes the Model S's charges seem tame (you at least get bigger wheels and higher performance tires).�
Apr 9, 2012
spatterso911 And comes with the entire SVT performance package as well. Dropping the wheels also drops the interior enhancements and Torsen diff.�
Apr 9, 2012
ckessel Yea I caught that too after the fact, sorry guys, I deleted the post and thought I'd gotten rid of it before anyone had a chance to see it and respond.�
Apr 9, 2012
spatterso911 We're watching this thread like hawks I guess!:biggrin:�
Apr 9, 2012
ElSupreme Sure it isn't falcons?
Anyway I am sure whatever we are watching like it sure is a raptor! :biggrin:�
Apr 9, 2012
stopcrazypp You don't actually have to make up numbers. Both tires are already known. The wheel styles are also known: the 21" wheels are a clone of the Lorinser RS8 wheels that were on the original Tesla Model S. These wheels cost about $1050 a piece for 21", and $900 a piece for 19". If you can find out what the 19" are a clone of you can figure out the actual retail wheel costs and how much direct margin Tesla is making from the wheel options.�
Apr 9, 2012
onlinespending But, even if you can't get the 528i wheels on the M5, they do give you a choice of other wheels and they are individually priced (see AMG also, as it has even more options). It's not as if they give you a choice of wheels (of varying grade/cost), but charge you the same for each. Perhaps Tesla would be better off only offering the 19" wheels for non-performance models and only the 21" wheels for the performance model. It'd be more restrictive, but at least it'd be consistent. And if people wanted to depart from the standard wheels for their respective edition, then they could swap. People would be swapping purely due to the fact that they can't get the option, not because of some arbitrage situation created by Tesla.�
Apr 9, 2012
Beavis Keep obsessing, people! I have noticed a pattern in Tesla's timing of information releases. Every time we are about to storm Fremont with pitchforks and torches over options & pricing, center consoles, or the design center, George comes out with something new. So let's keep up the banter to show George we are ready for our next Scooby snack of info.�
Apr 9, 2012
ckessel Hey, we all need a hobby, no judging!�
Apr 10, 2012
spatterso911 Are you referring to the EU site? In the US, I don't remember ever having the option to change wheels, with exception of paying more for a chromed set of the M-double spoke 19" wheels. I opted not to. On the M3, you can choose 2 different styles of 19" wheels for an extra expense, but you'd never get an option for 17" wheels on the M3, nor would you get 18" wheels on the M5 (e60). I believe the F10 M5 comes with 20" wheels now, not sure if 19" wheels are offered. I will ask.�
Apr 10, 2012
stopcrazypp I think the core of the issue is that Tesla chose to start with 19" wheels as base wheels, while pretty much all their competitors start with 17" or 18" wheels). This decision pushed their Performance and Signature wheels into the 21", which is not that common.
If they had the base model with 17" or 18" wheels and the Performance/Sig have 19" wheels, we probably won't be having this discussion.�
Apr 10, 2012
spatterso911 I wonder if there is some technical reason for the 21" size? I noticed that the Fisker comes with 22" wheels. Anybody have a theory on why large diameter wheels? Is it a technical thing, or purely aesthetic??�
Apr 10, 2012
jerry33 There is some performance impact in certain situations (typically cornering) at the expense of other performance factors, but mostly its because tire sidewalls are considered ugly so making them smaller improves looks ( if you think so).
Tire manufacturers love low profile tires because they wear out sooner. The Michelin tires that came to North America in the 1970s easily lasted 80,000 miles or longer. Low profile tires last far less and are more prone to damage. However, the public has been sold on low profile tires even though they are non-optimal for most real-world situations.�
Apr 10, 2012
dsm363 I think people would have been more upset if Tesla locked you into the 21" wheels in the performance version and then you had to pay an additional $2,000 or so for the aero wheels.�
Apr 10, 2012
Teslawisher Sounds like the main issue (aside from spatters observation) is wanting the perf model, but live in an environment where you don't get much out of one of the perf model's features (the 21" wheels). Allowing a downgrade is not very common at all. Allowing that downgrade and giving credit back is virtually unheard of.
What do other people who want a performance based car who live in those environments do with manufactures not allowing downgrades?
- Get the 21"'s and a spare/winter set of wheels/tires
- Get the 21"'s and deal with it
What do they do for the performance based car for manufactures that do allow downgrades (Tesla - and regardless of credit or not)?
- Get the 19"'s and be happy
- Get the non-perf with the 19"'s because you're not going to get the performance benefits of the perf version anyway 8-10 months out of the year.
Would it be really great if ordering a car, or cable/satellite channels, or a computer was purely ala carte? Hells to the yes! Only get what you'd pay for. I'd LOVE that! But, fact remains that bundling is how many industries (not just some individual companies) keep their profit margins where they want in increasingly difficult times and sometimes to get one thing you want, you can't have something else.�
Apr 10, 2012
ckessel I don't want ala carte, I'm not asking for Tesla to provide any flexibility in options they're not already providing. I just want to pay for the product I'm actually getting. That's not the same as being unhappy I'm getting things I don't care about, like DirectTV including some crap channel in a package.
I don't need to convince folks to take my position (well, it'd be nice to convince Tesla), but it'd be nice if it felt like the position was understood.
I get the other side, the "this is what other vendors do" argument. I don't really care what other vendors do, the "be like everyone else" argument has never held sway with me on any topic. However, I do understand that position.�
Apr 10, 2012
Teslawisher My apologies. I wasn't trying to insinuate that you wanted ala carte. I just made that statement in the most general of terms, not directed at you. If I could choose each item in a car along the way and not have to obtain (and thus pay) through a package, I'd be all over it, whether it be building a car or ordering TV. That would satisfy my feelings of getting what I paid for AND not getting what I didn't want. I'm in your boat, believe it or not.
I understand your position too. I think most arguments on this string were trying to get you to understand why it's not that way, which you obviously have a clear understanding of. Good luck in your decision.�
Apr 10, 2012
ckessel Ok, thanks�
Apr 10, 2012
dsm363 Tesla could have gone even further and said the Performance only comes with the 21" performance wheels. If you want something else, you have to order it in addition so at least it's not that bad.�
Apr 10, 2012
stopcrazypp Tesla is already taking the extra step of at least allowing you ALL the wheel options if you get a higher model (even though you don't get a credit). That's already a departure from how things are normally done. It'll be a step further to give a credit.
And if a credit is given it'll likely won't be the same as the individual option price (usually bundles are priced less than choosing every single option separately).�
Apr 10, 2012
swegman Leather option: How much is leather?
I have a reservation for the signature model and the production model. I want the performance versions for the leather choice and seats, not for the speed improvement. If both cars are equipped the same, the signature model is approximately $5100 more than the production model. For that difference, you can have the red exterior, the white interior and quicker delivery. For me, the time difference between the two cars is approximately 1 month according to Tesla. Signature is expected to be delivered in September. I don't want the white interior. So I am paying $5K+ to have the red exterior color. I am willing to do this.
However, I object to the tires. 21 inch tires/rims are no good where I live. Too many potholes. Just hit one 3 weeks ago in my Mercedes SLK, and a new rim was $1,100. So, if I downgrade to the 19 inch tires, I am throwing away another $3,500. So now the Singnature Performance is $8,600 premium.. Alternatively, if I take the car with the 21 inch tires, I will have to spend another $4K+ for 19 inch rims and snow tires, and have to deal with tire swapping twice a year and storage issues.
So, as it stands now, I feel like I am being forced from the Performance models to the regular production model. However, the regular models (both production and signature) have leather seats I do not like. So it is not just a simple matter of selecting the regular model with the options I want. It boils down to taking the performance models with the leather seats I want (I don't care about the speed improvement of the performance model) at a huge cost premium or take the production model with the seats I don't want.
I have called Tesla to discuss this. They said if enough people formally express their opinions to them, they may reconsider. As it now stands, I am reconsidering whether to get both (or even one) Model S, and may exercise my 6 month delay options because of this issue. I want the leather seats of the performance model with 19 inch tires. If I exercise my delay options, Tesla can not give the cars to another person, so they lose 2 sales until such time as I cancel or accept the cars. Seems like a loss to me by Tesla.
Tesla kept telling me they do not want me to accept a car that is not the way i want it. They kept saying they want me to be happy with the choice and understand my concerns, and may change their pricing model if enough people formally complain. So, contact Tesla headquiarters and talk to them. They may surprise all of us.�
Apr 11, 2012
qwk Mod note: Posts moved from [URL="http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.p
I agree with the above. There are some options you cannot get separately that are somewhat of a deal breaker for some. Tesla has to realize that while a model S performance may compete with bmw's M cars, many people who wouldn't otherwise buy an M car would buy the performance S because of the "electric car thing". Many of these people also live in parts of the country that have horrible roads, and cold snowy/muddy winters. 21 inch wheels with low profile tires are dealbreakers.
I would bet that this is an example of Tesla jumping over dollars to pick up nickels. The poster above is a perfect example. 2 model S cars on order, options may be dealbreakers, and he may not buy either car. Tesla loses about $50k profit on that. They would have to sell 20 wheel upgrades or people that take the downgrade with no rebate to just cover one customer that cancels his order. It's a simple game of numbers here, but if a customer is 100% satisfied, you dont have to play number games to make great profits.
I'm kind of in the same boat. Love the 21 inch wheels, but they are a no go where I live. I want the performance S, but the way the options are structured now, will not get one. I'll probably end up getting a base pack with the few options I want/need. That is a ton of margin left on the table for Tesla, but it's up to them how they want to approach this...�
Apr 11, 2012
ckessel That pretty much sums it up.
However, whatever money Tesla stands to gain or lose with their wheel pricing choice, I suspect it's a tiny amount simply because there probably aren't that many of us that want 19" tires on the Perf model. Even if I was right (and that's certainly not a given) in guessing Tesla would make more money changing their policy, it may be such a small amount of money that it's not worth their attention.�
Apr 11, 2012
qwk I bet we would be surprised how many want the performance with 19" wheels.
Yes, it could be a small amount of money, or a very large one, nobody can possibly know this, and probably won't find out once a decision is made. It's always much smarter to go with the "you can get more bees with honey than vinegar" scenario, especially for a new company. Anyway, the ball is in Tesla's court, there has been plenty of feedback on this topic, so it's kind of pointless to beat this dead horse anymore.�
Apr 11, 2012
ibcs I agree with you 100%. I can't use the tires in 21" tires in Ohio and don't care as much for the performance gain. What I really like is the carbon fiber accents and the leather in the inside of the car. I hope Tesla changes their mind, I'll still go with the Signature, but considered the Performance, but the premium seems to high with no credit for the 19" wheels.�
Apr 11, 2012
mnx The only way I'd even consider 19" wheels is if Tesla had 19" turbine wheels.
I love the way the 21" turbine wheels look and can't imagine the car without them. Of course I've never owned wheels bigger than 17" so I may be in for a nasty surprise in the future.�
Apr 11, 2012
swegman I like the appearance of the 21 inch rims, but they are totally out of the question.
I was told by my sales agent that the performance models have extra padding for the bolsters, in addition to the alcatera material. In addition, the performance production and the two signature models nclude leather on the lower part of the dash and on the door panels. This is in addition to the colored piping and carbon fiber accents.
The regular production car has different seats from what I was told (less padding in the bolsters), plus the leather option does not include the piping or alcatera. In the signature non-performance model, the leather has perforations, whereas the signature performance and production performance is solid leather. My sales agent thinks the non-signature production has the perforated leather, but he is not certain. However, he did say the quality of the leather in the non-performance production model is not as high as on the two signature models and the production performance model.
In addition, the non-performance production has no leather on the bottom half of the dash and on the door panels. Plus, the carbon fiber accents are omitted.
I want the "sport" seats, leather on seats, lower dash and door panels, and carbon fiber accents of the performance model, which features can not be added to the non-performance or signature non-performance models. Thus, I am not thrilled with the non-performance model, which is obviously being built to a desired price point. On the other hand, I do not want 21 rims and wheels on a car in my area, especially after just having had to spend $1,100.00 to replace a bent rim, from hitting a pothole that was so subtle I did not even realize I had hit one (I check my car between trips, and drove it on a 16 mile when the rim got bent). I am already paying a $5,100 (to $5,800) premium soley to get the signature performance model in the Tesla red color (which is something I want), but object to effectively paying an additional $3,500 premium (i.e., $8,600 to $9,300 total) for the car with tires/rims that are totally unsatisfactory in my area. Where I live, the car would need constant rim replacements due to the low profile tires. This is talking from experience. If you have never had low profile tires with aluminum rims, you will be in for an unpleasant surprise if you live in an area full of potholes.�
Apr 11, 2012
swegman Correction, not all the things I want csan be added to the signature non-performance model.�
Apr 11, 2012
Jeeps17 I agree the 19' rims look quite nice, if not as striking as the fan blades.
WRT the differences in interior trims, I believe that the above posters are concerned about the perceived lack of polish of the regular (non-perf, non-sig) model's interior finishing with the leather upgrade. For the price of a fully loaded "regular" S, I hope Tesla hits it out of the ballpark! I will reserve judgement until I see it in person.
Now about that rumored Montreal dealership... who do I have to talk to? :smile:�
Apr 12, 2012
rogbmw I have 19 inch wheels on my BMW, and will order 19s on the S. After seeing how big the 19 inch wheels are, I feel they will be an excellent choice. Plus, I believe this has been mentioned before, 19 inch wheels will have more replacement options including both performance and all weather tires.�
Apr 12, 2012
bonnie Yo! Did you guys get lost? You're in the Model S wheel pricing and performance thread. How did we get to service centers and 'how much leather' in the leather interior option?
Mod note:
-- Posts about the leather (or lack thereof) interior moved to here.
-- Posts about rumored new service centers moved here.
-narrowed eyes- I'm watching all of you. Behave.�
Apr 12, 2012
swegman We got to "how much leather" because it was suggested that if one does not want the 21 tires/rims, one should order the production non-performance model and select the options that one wants. The reply to this position was that it is not that simple, because the production non-performance model does not provide the ability to order the sport seats, colored piping, and extensive leather on the dashboard and door panels that are available on the production and signature performance models.
This post is merely intended to explain how we got to "how much leather", and not to bash or offend anyone. I hope I did not step on any toes by posting this, and apologize if I did.�
Apr 13, 2012
Jeeps17 :crying:�
Apr 13, 2012
bonnie I've derailed posts and gone off-topic faster than most. So no worries. I just was doing a little thread-cleaning last night�
Apr 15, 2012
dadaleus Stopped by a Tesla store with my family today while on a road trip, and a salesperson I've known for a long time told me that the 21" wheels will have a range cost of around 5% vs. standard 19" wheels. That was news to me. I apologize if this had been said before--I was under the impression from previous discussions here that we would expect the range to be about the same vs. anything but the aero wheels. This means the aero vs. 21" wheel difference is even larger. He also claimed the 21" wheels offer handling benefits.
Anyone else heard about this range drawback to 21" wheels? If not, I'll try and confirm with Tesla via email. Trying to make final decisions as it sounds like my order will be coming up very soon: They told me they took the order for SSL #70 a few days ago.�
Apr 15, 2012
ckessel I've heard it mentioned a few times. Stickier tires, higher rolling resistance, so less range.�
Apr 15, 2012
ChadS Recently, in the Bellevue store, I played with Tesla's range estimator. It said the 21" wheels cost 4-7 miles of range compared to the 19" wheels, depending on my other settings. That is a little over 2% of estimated range.
The tool did not include aero wheels; just the 21" and the base 19".�
Apr 16, 2012
richkae If that is all from aerodynamic drag ( some of it may be rolling resistance difference ), then 2% loss at 55mph will be more than 2% at 70mph.
If the aerodynamic wheels are a 5% range improvement at 55mph they will provide more at 70mph.�
Apr 16, 2012
dadaleus The salesperson in question claimed it was from increased "friction." But from the discussions on this thread I had the impression this wasn't likely. But I like the idea of having a better grip on the road so if this is true I'd certainly pick the sport wheels over the aeros despite the range loss. Range is important to me, but being able to stop and start faster will mean more on a day to day basis.
He also mentioned the range estimator. Hope I can get my hands on that. I wish they had it on the web.�
Apr 16, 2012
richkae When I get my car with the aerodynamic wheels, I will be happy to drag race anyone with the same spec car who has the 21 inch wheels.
Let's find a 1 mile drag strip.
I bet $100 that our 0-60 times will be within 1/10th of a second of each other, and I will win the mile by an obvious margin.�
Apr 16, 2012
AnOutsider If we're talking performance, I thought it was about cornering and handling than straight-line acceleration? If we're talking looks then... well ya�
Apr 16, 2012
dadaleus That's a test result I'd like to have in hand right now!
Also thinking stopping distance on the freeway when traffic comes to a sudden start right in front of me.�
Apr 16, 2012
drees It certainly makes sense. In general, the larger the wheel (while keeping overall tire diameter the same), the heavier that wheel/tire combo is going to be and the less aerodynamic that wheel/tire combo is going to be.
There are NO performance cars that ship with a 21" wheel. They are simply too heavy.
Let's look a the wheel/tire specs for a few super-cars:
Bugatti Veyron ($2M) - 20" wheels
Ferrari F12 Berlinetta ($250k) - 20" wheels
Lambo Aventador - ($387k) - 19/20" wheels
Lexus LFA ($375k) - 20" wheels
Hmmm... you'd think that if there was a performance benefit to 21" wheels these guys would figure out a way to fit (and charge) for them? Cost is obviously not at issue here.
How about something a bit more similar to the Model S?
BMW M5 - 19" wheels
Porsche Panamera Turbo S - 19" wheels
Tesla's decision to offer 21" wheels is purely for show. A bit of a donky one if you ask me (Google "donk" and look at the images to get the reference). They should have offered wheels in 18-20" sizes. 18" for efficiency. 19" for performance. 20" for show.�
Apr 16, 2012
richkae I totally believe that stickier rubber and more contact patch will improve braking performance. The car will let you stomp on the brakes until you lock up the tires and engage the ABS - unlike straight line acceleration where you don't really explore the limit of the tire.
I don't think the same tires on a 19 or 21 will be measureably different though.
I do believe that given two same make tires - the one with lower profile ( on the 21s ) may have better cornering and handling.�
Apr 16, 2012
BYT_P1837 Car and Driver covers that subject in this article comparing 15" to 19" tires.
Effects of Upsized Wheels and Tires Tested - Tech Dept. - Car and Driver
"What�s immediately apparent from the results is that as the wheel-and-tire packages get larger and heavier, acceleration and fuel economy suffer. Neither is a huge surprise, but we measured a 10-percent drop in fuel economy and a four-percent degradation in 0-to-60-mph acceleration from the 15s to the 19s, which is worth considering should you be thinking about going big."�
Apr 16, 2012
richkae Note that in their comparison the larger wheels also got wider and wore wider tires. The Model S tires are the same width on the 19 or the 21.�
Apr 16, 2012
BYT_P1837 I saw the rims at the Menlo Park TM store and put them side-by-side, the 21" are a tiny bit wider then the 19", maybe a half an inch wider at most.�
Apr 16, 2012
ckessel So it sounds like what you gain with the 21" tires is better cornering and looks.�
Apr 16, 2012
drees You will only get better cornering if the tires themselves are sticker. If you put the same tire on both a 19" and 21" wheel cornering performance will be basically identical. Acceleration will undoubtedly be better with the 19" setup.�
Apr 16, 2012
ckessel I thought the smaller sidewall on the 21" tire gave it a bit more stiffness and helped cornering. Or that not true? Or even if true, maybe it's relatively small compared to the tire rating (stickiness)?�
Apr 16, 2012
drees It will make the tire stiffer, but with a good tire, it's not going to improve things significantly. You will certainly get more NVH which may make it "feel" like you are going faster. Did you see my earlier post where just about every single super-car ships with 19-20" wheels money-be-damned?
There is a point of diminishing returns (and negative returns) when up-sizing wheels. Just Google "donk".
Personally - just knowing that you'll be spending $2,000+ to replace a wear item every 15k miles or so is enough to want to go with the smaller wheel size.
Kinda defeats the purpose to buy a more "sustainable" car and then go through tires at twice the cost and twice the rate of your typical 4-door sedan.�
Apr 16, 2012
dsm363 The 19" wheels make so much more sense. Want the performance wheels but might go with aero wheels now. Will have to think about it. Keep going back and forth on that. 19" wheels definitely give you more flexibility in tires (winter, all season....etc).�
Apr 16, 2012
ckessel Thanks guys. I wanted the 19" anyway, but this really cements in my mind that it's the better choice for more than just financial reasons.�
Apr 16, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Given all the effort poured into building up the eco-friendly and sustainable nature of the Model S (fallen banana leaf trim and all), the choice of 21" for the perf wheels by Tesla does appear to be garish, wasteful and contradictory. Not providing a credit (or additional accessories or some such) for those wanting a downgrade to 19" for a variety of reasons seems even more rude!�
Apr 16, 2012
dadaleus I intellectually respect that packages often include things you may not want. But I can't help feeling that you're right. I mentioned it to a salesrep yesterday and he gave the expected "Well, it's a package!" response.�
Apr 16, 2012
Grendal The Model S is an EV but it is also a luxury car. I'd think that looks, comfort, and performance are all features that are prioritized before efficiency. I commend Tesla for achieving as much efficiency as they have. I'm glad they offer the aero wheels for those that want to maximize their efficiency but they probably offer them more for the improved range than the efficiency gain.�
Apr 16, 2012
jerry33 The nominal section width is the same, the tread width will be wider on the 21" tire. As profile goes down the tire becomes more "square". The contact patch area will be the same if the tires are run at the same inflation pressure.�
Apr 16, 2012
onlinespending Besides the obvious functional shortcomings of the 21" wheels, I'm probably one of the few that actually think they also look worse. The more and more I focus in on them I realize how much I dislike them. They're almost comically big, like something you'd expect to see on a raised car. And I don't even care for the turbine rims. It reminds me of a pinwheel, so it looks more juvenile in some sense. The 19" rims appear more masculine. Just makes the decision an easy one.�
Apr 16, 2012
swegman I confirm the mileage hit with the 21 inch tires. My sales rep indicated that one should expect a 5% reduction in range using the 21 inch tires instead of the 19 inch tires. He also indicated that using the 19 inch areo rims is expected to raise the distance from 300 miles to 315-320 m iles (i.e., a 5% improvement).�
Apr 16, 2012
dsm363 So a potentially a 30 mile swing. Makes a strong case for the aero wheels if they look good.�
Apr 17, 2012
jcstp Just wondering if those 21" make more sence compared to the 19" because an electric motor has more torque! In "normal" sportscars they have less from the "getgo" till topgear!
Bit the same way a truck has huge tires compared to a car?�
Apr 17, 2012
ElSupreme I honestly think this has more to do with Sport/Performance tires versus All Season tires. I bet when I put Summer Sport (for all 4 Atlanta seasons) tires on my car it gets a range hit. I can't imagine my noise makers on my GTI don't drop my car ~1mpg.�
Apr 17, 2012
Mycroft Tesla is looking at offering snap-on covers of some kind for the 21" wheels. So if you're going on a road trip and want a little more range elbow room, you'd snap on the wheel covers. I think they're in testing. This is good because the best time for road trips would be in the Summer, which is also the best time for the 21" wheels.�
Apr 17, 2012
drees Physics is the same regardless of drivetrain. Lighter wheels with less inertia will always accelerate faster and ride better.
Sports cars accelerate fastest in first gear just like any other vehicle. The only time this may not be the case is on a turbo charged car where there isn't enough load/time for the turbo to spool up before you have to shift.
The only reason trucks have huge tires is because they handle the load better than smaller tires.
Not a bad idea - would be useful for all sorts of cars as long as you know you're not going to do any heavy mountain descending or extra spirited driving.�
Apr 17, 2012
AnOutsider Good to hear. I was thinking of getting a spare pair of aeros for winter and long trips, then I realized I can't be a$$ed to change wheels for something like that�
Apr 17, 2012
richkae I left the Roadster in cruise control at 55mph for a 7 mile 7% downhill and let the regen do all the work ( no brake pedal at all ) and I regenerated about 120 wh/mile. I think it was using less than half the available regen "braking power". I would bet you there is no paved road anywhere in the United States that is longer than a couple of miles that descends too steeply for the regen to handle it.
Descending from Haleakala on Maui to the beach is a 14000 foot descent over about 32 miles and I bet the Roadster could do it at any reasonable speed you desire without ever touching the brake pedal.
Somebody do some math...�
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét