Aug 7, 2013
gregincal Hm, given that 50K is quite a bit more expensive than almost every other EV, it doesn't sound like an "affordable" argument to me. And besides which, I don't see how making the high end options more expensive in any way makes the car less affordable. If you are making an affordable argument, you are talking about getting in at the base level, which only increased by about 1.5%. I don't really see how this makes the car less affordable. Dropping the 40kWh, yes. The larger raise in the base price at the beginning of the year, yes. The most recent price increases (which is the subject of this thread), not really.�
Aug 7, 2013
jomo25 Basically, if you configure a new car exactly the same as before this change, the prices typically come out higher, and esp. those at the higher, fully-optioned end. But if you are someone who paid more in the past because you had to take options (as part of packages/configs) that you didn't want, and now only price out what you really wanted, the price might actually be only slightly higher, comparable, or in some rare cases lower. And that colors people's perception of these changes.
I didn't get a package that included items I didn't want. So my config would cost more now, by a non-trivial amount. But YMMV based on what you really wanted vs. what you felt compelled to buy to get options you wanted.�
Aug 13, 2013
neroden Out of curiosity I rechecked my configuration. It has increased in price by $4200 over what I paid. (I locked in before the *2012* price increase.) This is actually quite a bit. Some of this is the end-of-2012 price increase ($2500) of course, and the tires which come with the standard 85 now cost $1000 more than before, so I would call this a $700 additional price increase. I am pleased to see that the "destination and regulatory doc fee" is now included rather than separate, as I advised Tesla to do that all along.
There are some odd choices on option pricing. Obeche wood is now extra-cost (formerly zero-cost), you have to buy an HPWC to get twin chargers (this is stupid), the ambient lights have been removed from the tech package, the new ambient lights cost $1000 (more than I'd willingly pay), the air suspension costs $750 more (probably because they're going to be expensive to service), the tech package costs $250 less. I can kind of see what's going on with most of those, but not with the extra charge for wood trim.
The forced purchase of the HPWC with the twin chargers is the worst part, as this jacks up the price of twin chargers by $1200, which is the largest effect on my configuration. There should be a "Fast Charging In Canada" option with just the twin chargers listed as an alternative to "Fast Charging At Home".
Frustratingly, there are two new options packages which I could really stand to have retrofitted, which are the parking sensors and the cold weather package, and I could also use the upgraded fog lights. (We get a lot of fog. The Tesla Gen 1 fog lights were... better than nothing, but not great). I don't know how much those will cost to retrofit, but hopefully less than $3200 or I'll feel like I could have done better buying the car later. Oh well, that's what always happens with a new model.
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FWIW the "standard sound system" (no extra charge) is plenty nice unless you're an audiophile. I have not regretted getting it. The fact that the *car* is so quiet makes it exceptional.
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I see that others have also noticed that some of the new option pricing seems to be in the "only for people with money to burn" category, and probably has 90% gross profit margins.
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First thing to drop is the "P". The non-performance Model S accelerates faster than you will ever need or want outside a racetrack. "P" has always been strictly for racers.
The current pricing is interesting. When Tesla dropped the 40kWh model, and when Tesla raised the prices of everything by $2500 near the end of 2012, Tesla was making the base model more expensive. In this round of pricing, Tesla has steeply increased the price of most of the "decorative" options, without increasing their value -- while the "pragmatic" options remain extremely reasonably priced. As a stockholder, I worry that this will backfire by leading to lots of people dropping the "decorative" options. In terms of recommendations to buyers, well, I'd say, don't get the decorative options.�
Aug 14, 2013
Right_Said_Fred Can you specify how you calculated the 18K? Are you sure you didn't include any new options you don't have yet (like parking sensors) or that have been expanded (like the lighting package which now includes much more light points)?�
Aug 15, 2013
Right_Said_Fred Some have accused you of trolling and I think that is an accusation that should not be made so bluntly. But I do wonder what you want to accomplish on this forum. You have been posting here for 1.5 years now and from post 1 you have been complaining about Tesla and the Model S, especially about the lack of features/options and the price. As a matter of fact, almost all of your 450+ posts (I already read a lot of them in the past, but have now looked up many more) are negative about Tesla and very positive about its German counterparts from Audi, Mercedes, BMW and Porsche.
Ofcourse anyone can complain about Tesla and the Model S (I did so too several times), but for you it's the one and only thing you do! After 10, 20 or 30 posts the message should be clear, but more than 400 posts?!?
It must be clear now that the Model S will never live up to your standards. You expect a lower price, but a lot more features, and in the meantime completely ingnore the fact that this is impossible if you consider that the Model S comes with a battery worth $20,000 (which is not included with cars of your favored brands, which are much more expensive to run) and comes from a company that doesn't have the scale yet that the big German manufacturers have. You are asking for the impossible.
I think your criticism has been well noted, but isn't it time to move on to another subject? Or do you think it's constructive to repeat the same arguments for another 450 posts?�
Aug 15, 2013
AmpedRealtor +100
I've replied to a few of this person's rants in other threads. According to him, he doesn't like the Tesla because it doesn't have all the blings of the other Euro high end cars - 360 pano camera, heads up display, night vision, blah blah. He absolutely doesn't care a nit for the fact that the car uses no gasoline, can be charged in your garage, and is a revolutionary extended range EV. None of that matters to him, apparently, and the Model S is not the car for him because it's not as luxurious inside as a similarly priced BMW, Mercedes, or [insert car maker here]. Yet he keeps coming back here and wasting his and everyone else's time by posting about a vehicle in which he supposedly has no interest.
It sounds to me like he secretly loves this car, but his wife has his balls in a vice and he probably can't even wipe his butt without his hardy Eastern European wife beating him over it.
�
Aug 15, 2013
brianman The rest of this sentence isn't worth quoting.
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I didn't look back on the posts, but my impression is that his "perhaps overzealous" critique is something of an opportunity for Tesla. If you can make this kind of critic happy, then "it's done, Tesla owns the automotive industry".�
Aug 15, 2013
AmpedRealtor I thought it was funny because I grew up in exactly such a family!
You should meet my mother... lol�
Aug 16, 2013
arondaniel So I'm a bit perplexed why many buyers feel the need to get P85 with all options -- the configuration that seems to have jumped the most in price.
Here's my reasoning. Tesla is a _platform_ as much as it is a car. Upgrade a BMW 320i to an M3? Not bloody likely.
Upgrade a Model S 60 to 85 perf? Well... why the hell not? There is a battery. So, replace it with a larger battery in 5 years when the prices go down and capacity gets better. Now you have an 85. There is also an inverter, and AFAIK, no technical reason why one inverter can't be replaced with a larger inverter later.
Everything else that matters (tech, roof, leather, stereo) can be added to the 60 when you configure it. So I won't have a spoiler or wider wheels or whatever... So what?
Of course, this is my own opinion. Who knows, maybe Tesla won't want to make another 10-20k off me when the time comes... But I bet they will.�
Aug 16, 2013
vfx Some people walk in and want the best. For them, price does not matter. Tesla has seen many of them since their inception with the Roadster. The new round of increases are aimed at them.�
Aug 17, 2013
AmpedRealtor Your advice presumes availability of such upgrades. Currently I do not believe such upgrades are not available for purchase through Tesla or anyone else. There is also no guarantee that Tesla will ever make higher capacity batteries available for upgrade, as that is also not currently offered or available. Your advice is good assuming those things you list actually happen. That's where doing what you describe is a bit of a gamble and not entirely satisfying.�
Aug 17, 2013
hans The P85 has a more powerful electric motor as well, does it not? Parts and labor for that upgrade would be large.
Someone, someday will do this I am sure. There is a guy on the Bimmerforum who just put a brand new Corvette engine in his 13 year old BMW 5 Series Wagon.�
Aug 17, 2013
purplewalt Originally posted by Brianman:
I didn't look back on the posts, but my impression is that his "perhaps overzealous" critique is something of an opportunity for Tesla. If you can make this kind of critic happy, then "it's done, Tesla owns the automotive industry".[/QUOTE]
My take on Austin Powers' postings:
"Do Not Seek Praise, Seek Criticism"
--Paul Arden
You are correct.
The best advocate one can ever have is the silenced Critic, who, once overwhelmed with the Facts, instead becomes a fervent zealot.
No, my Model S isn't perfect, nor is Tesla Motors.
Not yet anyway.
But my MS and Tesla Corporate sure are doing a LOT of things incredibly right.�
Aug 19, 2013
arondaniel P85 has the same motor. It has a larger inverter, probably some sort of suspension upgrade too.
Of course people with deep pockets will want the very very best. I'm just saying, hey, if you're pockets aren't that deep, getting P85 performance out of a 60 in a few years is feasible. Guaranteed? Of course not.
But given that the battery can be swapped in 90 seconds and software downloaded in 3 minutes, I like my chances of eventually getting at least an 85. Time will tell...�
Aug 19, 2013
brianman Ok, since there was some ambiguity last time I'll ask them time: are you referring to retrofit or trade-in?�
Aug 21, 2013
andrewket I'd be willing to bet it doesn't even require the software upgrade. The battery pack is intelligent. I'm sure it tells the car "I'm a 85kWh battery."�
Aug 22, 2013
AustinPowers Let's leave personal insults out of this, ok. (And my wife isn't Eastern European anyway)
I am amazed that you accuse me of ranting or always complaining about the Model S, while all the time I thought I was just making observations, both positive and negative, about both the Model S and the competition. And for sure I haven't been complaining in most of my posts.
Sometimes I was answering to other posters, sometimes I was seconding their opinions, sometimes I was critizising certain aspects, sometimes I was very positive about the Model S.
You are wrong when you paint the black and white picture that I don't like the Model S because of it's lack of features. By the way I NEVER said I didn't like the car. Quote one of my other posts if I'm wrong.
You are right about one thing though. I loved this car from the beginning (and in no way secretly). I have already said so in another post, but this must have slipped by all of those who think I just want to bash Tesla or the Model S.
So to restate, I have loved this car from day one. To give you a picture, I have had the photos of the prototype on my desktop here at work for years, colleagues have laughed at me when they asked about what that car was and I explained to them what it could accomplish. I defended Tesla for years, I advertised the car at every opportunity, I stated firmly that this would be my next car. No one believed me or believed the Model S could be what Tesla (or I) said it would be. I have always been fascinated by electric vehicles and I am positive my next car will be a BEV. I have driven the Zoe, I have a Model S test drive in two weeks time.
So why you ask, why do I dare to criticise the car? Well, I think I am entitled to voice criticisms about any car, and I do so all the time. I never said the German cars were perfect, no car is. Many cars (not just German ones) have more features than the Model S, many have more refinement in the interior or fit and finish department, but that is not the main point imho.
The main point why the Model S isn't the car for me any more is simply an economy equation. I based my budget for my next car on the formula "current car +25% max", because my current cost 50K Euro, and between 60K and 70K Euro is the maximum I can justify not only to my wife but also to myself. After all, a car is just a car. The Model S (40) would have been the car for me. The original advertisement by Tesla was "premium BEV for under 50K Dollars". Granted, one has to take into account shipping, taxes, etc., but realistically, a 40KWh Model S could have been available for about 60K Euro. Of course we know the way things went.
So yes, the Model S isn't the car for me anymore. But that doesn't mean that Tesla isn't the carmaker that is interesting for me anymore.
I have said several times that my hopes are now set on Gen III, and that is a true statement, not just sayso.
That said, why can't/shouldn't I take part in current discussions about the Model S, just because I won't buy one? I might buy a Tesla in a few years, so as a possible future owner, I think I have every right to take part actively here. If I have to make positive remarks, I will do so, if I think certain aspects deserve criticism, I will criticise.
On the other hand, if everyone here thinks my contributions are worthless (or even all negative - which I'd like to think they aren't), then I will keep my mouth shut from now on, and just read the threads/posts until Gen III is around. I neither wish to waste your nor my time, but as I said, I saw my posts up to now as valuable contributions to the discussions on this forum, which I think is a very good one by the way, especially because the mix of opinions here is so diverse and the discussion culture so largely unbiased.
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Completely agree. I will be very happy the day I will have become that person.�
Aug 22, 2013
dsm363 You are welcome here of course and appreciate your input. Maybe a used Model S down the road or a Gen III as you said will be in your future.�
Sep 30, 2013
dhanson865 I don't see why there is such confusion over the price changes. The first think I notice when going to configure a Model S is:
85P : 1 month delay
85 : 2 month delay
60 : 3 month delay
Supply and demand is a basic economics concept. How can you not see that there is more demand than supply if they are making you wait multiple months to take delivery on a $60,000+ car?
They use the wording "delivers in about 3 months" for the 60. Anybody that wants a 60 is more limited by the delay than they are the price. Right now I'm fine with them increasing the price and production until the two are in balance and it is just as easy to buy a low end 60 as it is to get a P85+ with all the options.
Come back and talk about price increases and/or price reductions when there is less than a months wait on every trim level of the Model S. When supply is sufficient to meet demand then they'll consider if the options are overpriced.�
Oct 1, 2013
Mario Kadastik I think the delaying of 60 is done on purpose to get those that are anxious and actually able to fork over the money to upgrade to higher models with bigger margin. This way they'll earn a bigger profit and of course preferentially take the P's first, then S85, the S60. They won't let you wait for half a year if they have a steady P demand, but they will delay you more to get higher margin cars through.
Edit: I think the good old saying goes well here: We can deliver good products, cheap products and we can do it fast. Pick any two.�
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