Aug 3, 2013
Christian3 What do you guys think of the price increases? for me it added just under $12,000. Which I have chosen to put off ordering my vehicle until I can just cut a check in full and have no worries. Have any of you guys chosen to do the same? Are you jealous and upset that they made these options available; ready to get rid of yours and get the latest and greatest? (You Model S Owners now)! Really interested in what you guys think. Thank�
Aug 3, 2013
MartinAustin Technically I ought not to be unhappy with the price increases, because the only real reason I can afford one of these cars is because I bought a ton of TSLA in early April. Prior to that my plan was to buy a BMW 328 for a heck of a lot less outlay. But right now it takes a day or three for my stockpile to increase by $12,000, so I can still afford the car, with the same number of stocks that I would have spent last week, even though the price has gone up.
I've been putting off the purchase decision until after the Q2 earnings release - for whatever reason.
Since I'm a stockholder, the new arrangement of P85 being slightly cheaper but with many, many features removed, makes it a more profitable car (even when the base P85 is purchased with no options) - so I am happy about that.
I love the new options and will be springing for quite a few. Intrigued to know more about the new sound system option. I dearly wish there were grab handles, clothes hooks, and cup holders. The irony that such an expensive car is so bereft of these cheap conveniences (that a Hyundai Elantra has in droves) grows even more now with the price increase.
Even with my positive outlook, though, the price increases still sting!!! I think I'm just cheap, LOL.�
Aug 3, 2013
AC1K as it stands the model S is no longer worth it, this is a maxed out M5 vs the MS
i am actually quite angry with the price hike, ive been freely advertising for tesla by offering rides and showing my P85, i got a ton of people ready to purchase the car, but with the price hike of over $20K in Canada, forget it, $20K can buy another car.
not only that, they havent improved the design of the sunroof (it has the worse wind noise of any sunroof ive ever used) but now it costs another $1200 more, the audio system is crap and has always been crap for $1000, and now it costs $2800.
i can no longer recommend this car because its not actually "better" when you factor in the price. (before it was the same price but you had less to maintain and no gas, but now the M5 is faster with more power and costs less for TCO)
�
Aug 3, 2013
Mr X
who the heck would spend 120k for a M5? complete waste of money�
Aug 3, 2013
AC1K the M5 outperforms the tesla in every way including 0-60, quarter mile, and all handling tests (2013 and 2014 models with the 575HP V8)
with this price increase, its not worth it for the tesla anymore as $15K can buy you a ridiculous amount of gas and cover a ton of maintenance.�
Aug 3, 2013
HHHH I think you've just been stung by Tesla. Give it time, this too shall pass.�
Aug 3, 2013
Twiddler Can't help but assume that this is going to mean a more expensive model X relative to my model S (i.e. same options on the X costing more than when I finalized my S)�
Aug 3, 2013
Quacker How does a carbon fiber spoiler cost $1600 on that M5? I can buy a carbon fiber hood, trunk, and spoiler for less than that on my car, and still have money left over. Maybe there's solid gold under that carbon fiber.�
Aug 4, 2013
phat78boy Lol, that's the price for the CF spoiler on the Model S. Gotta love the new pricing.�
Aug 4, 2013
Quacker No that would be insane, it's only $1500 on the Model S.�
Aug 4, 2013
SCW-Greg Who smokes who?
[Video] Model S smokes BMW M5 in drag race - Blogs - Tesla Motors Club - Enthusiasts & Owners Forum
Perhaps 2014 the tides have changed... but define the word "smokes."�
Aug 4, 2013
patp I did the same calculation. A fully equipped Model S is now priced in Porsche price bracket. Many people I know bought the car because it's awesome and a novelty, not because its green. So for those customers, an M5, RS7, CLS 63 AMG are the comparables.
For sure Tesla will sell less cars but maybe they'll make more profit anyway (ie Porsche). But it's a dangerous game to play. Hope Elon is right.�
Aug 4, 2013
jerry33 Makes the car I have look like a real bargain. I would never have been able to afford the new prices. I believe it's a big mistake. The a la carte idea is good but when you add up all the pieces it adds $12K to the price. Perhaps the correct way would have been to keep the existing prices for the packages and then have the a la carte items at the new prices. For example if you wanted an S85 with carbon fibre, you would pay $800 for carbon fibre.
The only reason I can think of for the price increase is to reduce the orders in the U.S. so they can ship half the production overseas without increasing the backlog.
Shorts are going to have a field day with this pricing.�
Aug 4, 2013
Johan As long as demand doesn't taper of (globally) to a level where instead of being production constrained, they become demand constrained, I don't see how there could be much downside to increasing price. There is no such thing as "a fair price" or "the right price". The right price is the highest price the market is willing to pay. They must be pretty confident that demand will hold up. I think this also tells us that they don't plan on any massive production increases as Model X is added to the mix, but that the volume increase will come with Gen III. They couldn't go back down on pricing again, that would really really be a sign of weakness.�
Aug 4, 2013
kcveins I don't know the price of gas in Canada, but the $15K difference in gas vs electricity for me would be recouped in <3 years (20,000 miles/yr @16 mpg (combined mpg for M5) = 1250 gallons premium @$4.40 = $5500/yr).�
Aug 4, 2013
fiksegts those in the market for an M5, E63 or P85 aren't going to choose one or another over the $ difference, when spending this kind of money you buy what you want...
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Aug 4, 2013
jkirkebo I would save a ton of money if I could order my EU model with the new pricing (no go as it's in production now).
I got the P85 because the carbon fibre interior was the only one I liked. Now it's available on the S85 for $800.
I got the tech package because of the xenon lights. Now xenons are standard equipment on all versions.
I got the 21" wheels because I loved the turbine design. Now there are similar wheels available in 19" for a lot less.
The only real downside is if they put DAB+ radio into the new sound package. $2500 is too much to pay for radio reception IMHO (FM is being phased out over here). DAB+ sould really be standard on EU models.�
Aug 4, 2013
Alexander I agree and I disagree... I don't think that's true for the majority of people that were buying Model S's. There's always going to be the 1% that can afford anything they want. But what's made the Model S special is that it's the first practical, luxury EV that was attainable for the middle class.
A lot of the MS owners and reservationists that I've met can/could barely afford the car as is (including myself). Just look at how long it took/takes for Signature reservations to fill up compared to the Production reservations. Most of the people buying these cars (MS and MX) can't afford to drop $40k. I think it would be safe to say that the upper middle class is driving the demand for Model S's and makes up the majority of the owner/reservationists. But I don't think that will be true going forward.
Over the last 22 months I've put enough money away that I can spring for the options. But if 22 months ago I was presented with these options at the price points they're at now, I would of been EXTREMELY turned off to the car. I would of looked at it and said to myself "if I'm going to spend $70k on a car, I want $70k worth of features!"
Its absurd (for us that have less money and sense) to think about spending $70k on a car when it's going to come with a horrible stereo system, no fog lights, no parking sensors, no heated seats, no onboard GPS, no electronic side mirrors, no daytime running lights, and no leather when a $53,800 BMW 528i comes with all of this standard!
What's happened here is that Tesla is no longer trying to compete with BMW and Mercedes... With BMW and Mercedes, their cars are affordable and practical for those of us in the middle class. The Model S was already more expensive than BMW and Mercedes, but the Model S was still attainable when you factored in the tax incentives and fuel savings. But that's no longer the case.
I now have to spend $97k to get the same options I would get standard in a $53k BMW.
From my point of view, Tesla's no longer interested in selling to the masses. Tesla's new price point has moved them into competing with Porsche and Maserati. Unfortunately the masses are driving BMW's and Mercedes, not Porsche's or Maserati's.
This is what Tesla's price hike says to me: "Goodbye middle class, hello 1%"�
Aug 4, 2013
Colasec FWIW my car's configuration is now only $1750 more, and $1K of that I wouldn't choose to spend.
60kWh / Leather / Tech (inc "premium lighting") / Pano
$77820 before tax credits
60kWh / Leather / Tech / Pano / Premium Lighting
$79570 before tax credits
If configuring now, I wouldn't get the premium lighting. So my config went up only $750 (Pano + $1K, Tech - $250, Base 60 and Leather same).
Though if I were configuring now, I'd pay $500 for the parking sensors.�
Aug 4, 2013
Jonathan Hewitt I didn't realize "premium lighting" was part of the old tech package...My car's supposed to come in a week and I got the tech package so that's cool for me. I agree, it wouldn't be worth it to me for an extra $1000.�
Aug 4, 2013
AC1K im in canada so the quote is CAD, but i think your joking so yeah. also the previous poster is correct, i could get a full hood and trunk CF replacement with V weave or kevlar weave for the same price, that flimsy spoiler is just a joke, its freaking double sided taped on, not something i would call "premium"
that was a 2012 M5, the 2013 and 2014 destroy the MS, also the 2012 out handled the MS in every way, i got the MS because it was cheaper TCO, it was a better "value", this is not the case anymore, a $20K CAD price hike means its the worst value and i would look like an idiot if i bought it, kind of like buying a Zero S electric motorcycle, at $16K its more expensive than the fastest Japanese super bikes, even after 10 years the gas savings still doesnt add up.
Money is always a determining factor, except if you are jay leno. When i got my car i was already scraping the line of what i could afford, i only make $64K a year.
i fully agree with your statements and personally i think Tesla is going in the wrong direction, for EV adoption, you have to pretend you want people to adopt it, not alienate them. the price just gives alot of the potential buyers the middle finger now.�
Aug 4, 2013
Volker.Berlin I would completely agree if Tesla could satisfy existing demand and then some. As we all know, that's not the case.�
Aug 4, 2013
dsm363 Well it is safe to say they are not losing $30,000 on every car made like one other recent EV related entrant did. These increases definitely move the upper versions of the car out of reach for a lot more people which is unfortunate. Hopefully they'll find a way to decrease prices in a few years if possible or if needed.�
Aug 4, 2013
Grendal This makes perfect sense. They now have a years worth of production behind them and the money people can track the profit much more clearly. Tesla is simply bringing each of the add-ons into line with the 25% profit margin.
My own complaint was that I didn't want the Tech package but did want the air suspension. Now I can't do that.�
Aug 4, 2013
J in MN Then why do you complain about the price of a maxed out configuration? Living within your means? For the configuration we got the price went down (Tech package now only $3500 vs $3750 before).�
Aug 4, 2013
BlueTan85 My confirm date for my Model S order was Aug 1st. I've visited the Tesla Store numerous times, spoken to lots of Tesla people, main feedback I gave 'em was I was waiting for Parking Sensors. Rumors started flying in July that Parking Sensors were coming, as well as rumors about retrofits (esp w/ Jerome's TESLIVE talk) so I decided to go for it.
Two days later, Tesla changes all of its pricing, upwards, and offers Parking Sensors. I call the Tesla people and am told, essentially, ha ha, you're screwed, if you want Parking Sensors you gotta re-order and it'll cost you, oh, $4000. It's bull**** plain and simple. If they wanted to keep happy customers they wouldn't give them the middle finger forcing pre-production, pre-factory orders to have to be dropped just to activate $500 Parking Sensors.
Tesla is turning Model S into just another 1%-er toy like the Roadster. This move does not give me confidence that the Model X is going to be anything different. I expect it to be one of the most expensive crossover SUVs in the world, beyond fully loaded Porsche Caymans in pricing.
How does this get the world to move to EVs?�
Aug 4, 2013
AmpedRealtor How are you screwed? You based your decision on rumors, hearsay and a lot of assumptions. You seem to be putting value of the parking sensors ahead of everything else. The parking sensors are a $500 option, but you are acting like they are more desirable and valuable than the other $4,000 in options you are basically getting for "free" when compared to the new pricing model. I would be thrilled if I were you. Of course if you find the parking sensors so valuable, I guess you will pay the additional $4,000. In my case, it would have been nice to get them for $500, but compared to what I would be giving up, I'll stick with my current order that just went to production. I was offered the new options at the new prices, but declined after I realized that my car value will actually increase the moment I roll it off the lot.�
Aug 4, 2013
Johan It creates gross margins that keep Tesla highly profitable so the company can thrive until 2016/2017 when the Gen III line is introduced. This car will be priced so that it's interesting for the general public.�
Aug 4, 2013
markb1 You get to choose between the old pricing scheme and the new one. I don't see how you're screwed in any way.�
Aug 4, 2013
TommyBoy Careful about these option prices. I've recently read that the leather option for the dashboard and door panels is all new to provide purchasers an opportunity to make their car more luxurious and that the $1500 leather option will provide exactly the same amount of leather as the original P85 package so you can't add in that $2500 cost. And the lighting package is all new as well and that the standard P85 lighting is the same today so you can't add that $1000 into the cost. And the stereo may be a complete redesign with different components, wattages and tuning and it may actually now be worth the upgrade price so you can't add in that $1550 upgrade charge to your car. That's $5050 right there that you may be adding to the price of your car that actually doesn't make any sense and with a lower base price on the P85 it is even less of a difference than that.
We should wait until this whole thing shakes out and we really understand what these options are before condemning the company.�
Aug 4, 2013
JPP Last time I checked, the USA is a free market economy (...well, mostly). There were no guarantees about future pricing, options, etc on the TM site. Yes, some folks likely have a decision to make about what is or is not important when building their Model S. I bought mine knowing that it did not have parking sensors (something I really wanted), and also was one of the folks who got trapped in the fog light conundrum (listed on the specs, part of my build list, but dropped in forward production without any $$ compensation). Now I will see how (and for how many $$) I can get parking sensors retrofit, and what might be done with the fog light issue. At the end of the day, people, we are talking about a car, a discretionary purchase (and not a trivial inexpensive one at that). If you think the BMW is a better value, by all means, buy it. I still think the Model S is a very good value for what it has/does compared to other similar vehicles. And, in my own case, the new price for my S85 is not a whole lot more than what I paid. I agree that the P85 is now pricey, especially 'full spec'.
FWIW, I have a background in engineering and physics, and am the unofficial CIO/CTO of my practice. The question I get asked all the time is: 'What is the best______ that I should buy?", with the blank usually filled in with smartphone, computer and the like. My stock answer is: "Next year's model'. Whatever you buy today will be obsoleted in a month or 2, twice as fast and good in 6 months, at half the cost. Don't get mad, just freeze the technology and appreciate what you have and what it does.�
Aug 4, 2013
brianman Except perhaps for the difficult-to-keep-in-stock loaner sales, this is not certain. And I don't believe it to be true.
Production-constrained. Until this changes to demand-constrained, they can charge 7 figures for the cars.�
Aug 4, 2013
fiksegts if an extra $10k to get what you really want makes are breaks buying a car in the $100k range you shouldn't be spending that kind of money on a car....
�
Aug 4, 2013
AmpedRealtor You seem to be under a false impression that a 10% variance is insignificant. It is not. You also seem to be operating on a false presumption that people who can afford this vehicle - some of them wealthy - are unconcerned with cost. Responses like yours are pompous and lack sensitivity to those who are stretching to buy this car. Anyone who stretches to buy this car should be admired, not chastised with elitist BS.�
Aug 4, 2013
gregincal
Stretching to buy the car is one thing, but the price of the Model S didn't go up by much. The price of the top of the line performance edition with all the bells and whistles went up up by quite a bit, but strangely I don't have as much sympathy for somebody stretching their budget to get the fanciest edition of a car.�
Aug 4, 2013
austinEV I am one of the buyers straddling the border of July/Aug pricing. I place a cancel-able order as a hedge in case pricing went nuts. I reserved:
P85
19 standard wheels
leather interior, wood accents
$1500 paint
pano roof
tech package
jump seats
HPWC
(free alcantara, active air suspension, spoiler, some of the lighting)
All in all my July pricing was a hair under 100,000.
My pain is the parking sensors (a measly $400 upgrade). it would cost me $4000 to switch to an exactly equiv car. HOWEVER, I really don't care about some of the options I was getting. I am ambivilent about the spoiler. I was ambivelant to negative about the active air suspension. Alcantara I am ambivalent about given how little there is with the pano option. ditto the special lighting which looks a bit after-market special to me. So, if I give back the spoiler, active air, lighting and add in the parking sensors it adds $1000. I will probably just make the switch.�
Aug 4, 2013
Krugerrand Hold up. The Model S was always intended as a LUXURY sedan. That some people, who normally wouldn't be in the market for such a vehicle for many reasons (including yearly salary), have decided to purchase it is irrelevant to your argument. If the increases have priced some of those people out of the car now, while a shame (because I want everyone on the planet to own an EV and would selfishly prefer it to be a Tesla) it must never be forgotten that Model S is a LUXURY sedan and as such is EXPENSIVE. As well, both Model S and Model X HAVE TO finance the R&D and eventual production of GEN III. That's the reality of it.�
Aug 4, 2013
AmpedRealtor I agree with you, I just take issue with how easy it is for some to be dismissive of others who may be in a different financial situation but still want this vehicle for the right reasons. Labeling someone as somehow unworthy of buying this vehicle if they cannot tolerate a 10% swing in price is, shall we say, speaking from a unique point of view.�
Aug 4, 2013
Krugerrand I've missed the 'dismissive of others and the unworthy labeling'. The comment you quoted was a financial opinion on the 'economical sense' of purchasing the Model S in direct relation to the sensitivity of +/- a 10% cost difference (of 'I really want items'). There's validity in that opinion and no reason to take it personally. I've never understood people's 'money sensitivity'. It's just paper. And no, I'm not monetarily rich...yet.
�
Aug 4, 2013
Seven7 Alright, I just went to the Tesla website and optioned out a P85 and the way I would option it out now would save me about $5k. The new pricing allows people to get into a P85 for less money, every Corvette I have ever bought I never went for the super optioned out car, I bought one with the options that made sense to me. The guy from Canada, AC1k, has a car optioned out with almost every option available.�
Aug 4, 2013
BlueTan85 I'm screwed because I was plenty happy with the $950 sound system and all the other options. But with the new pricing, I would have to spend tons more to get any sort of sound system, and a bunch of other things to approximate the feature-set I'd ordered originally. Seems unfair to me. I had hoped Tesla would be more reasonable for an order that is already placed but not in production yet. A reasonable, customer-friendly company, it seems to me, would say, okay, pay us $500 more and we'll throw the sensors in. Having to order an entirely new config with new pricing is BS, and not something a reasonable, customer-friendly company does.�
Aug 4, 2013
fiksegts I'm referring to the P85 cars that are $100k+ in response to the person who wrote that the Model S P85 is too expensive now and the BMW M5 a better buy/car.
If you're buying the Tesla for the right reasons (what ever those are), then why not just get the 60 kWh model.... you don't have to spend the extra $40k to go fast and have all the options...
I think if you're in the market for a $100k+ car, an extra $5-$10k to get what you really want should not put your financial situation in jeopardy, this has nothing to do with being worthy or unworthy of the car.
�
Aug 4, 2013
evme While I can't exactly say I am happy about the price increases. Some questions come to mind. Like did Tesla maybe switch suppliers to offer an improved experience?
Overall though, looking at the prices of many options I see some obvious advantages, especially for the S60 and S85 who can gain access to some options which were not available. If your the kind of person who chooses options wisely you get a lot from the new features such as winter package, parking sensor, new wheels and tires. The cost added was around 2k from what I count which seems to be reasonable. I think the people most effected are the ones with the urge to tick every option.
I think what they did is overall better as they are allowing more control over the customization. What I do find a little interesting is they removed the ability to get twin charging separately from the twin charger. I wonder why...
On an unrelated note, has anyone notice that no media channels have yet picked up on these new options? (unlike the P85+ option)�
Aug 4, 2013
AC1K I should explain in more detail...
I wanted to expose the city i live in with a population of 1.2 million+ to an EV that is capable of replacing a normal car. Ive shown hundreds of people (150+)my car and even gave around 25-30% of them a free test drive.
since i live in one of the oil capitals of canada, i know there are alot of people with money here but would not jump aboard unless this car was just awesome in every way. i am more or less trying to siphon oil money into pushing EVs to gain faster adoption.
as far as i can tell, i am the only person in Calgary with a Performance 85 and maybe 1 out of 4 Tesla Model S owners total, but i see HUNDREDS of M5s, M3s, C63AMG, S5 etc, etc
now with my original statement, i cannot advertise Tesla as being "better" than an M5 with this price increase, i dont have a leg to stand on with numbers to my arguments, and the people that were interested and ready for a deposit have now canceled because the price pushes the cost well over $25K from their original amount (canada price increases are much more significant).
I basically just wasted my time trying to promote interest and push EV adoption. This would of worked if they kept the pricing equiv to the M5 but added more features to make it more appealing.�
Aug 4, 2013
Anzir I'm still scratching my head that a $60-135k car could still charge for fog lights as an option.�
Aug 4, 2013
SwedishAdvocate @ AC1K
These people, would they be able to save money by not buying gas?
Do any of them have kids?
Do they plan to get any?
Could they possibly be made to sympathize with other people than themselves?
There is a kind of �holy grail� argument. And that argument is Global Warming.�
Aug 4, 2013
cwerdna And, it requires the $3,500 tech package, at least on the base 60 kwh model.�
Aug 4, 2013
fiksegts I've had my share of AMG and M cars and have a few friends that drive them now. It's really hard to bring them away from what they know and like, I've given them rides in my Tesla and let them drive it. While they are without question impressed with the car, they aren't trading in their cars for Teslas. The previous pricing or new pricing has no bearing on if they buy the Tesla or not, many of them are hard core performance car people and that's not what the Tesla is. Making the Tesla cheaper doesn't make it better or more attractive at the highest level, at least from what I see with regards to AMG and M car owners.
For me the attraction to Tesla was about something new, techie, unique and truly revolutionary, the fact the it performs well is an awesome bonus.
�
Aug 4, 2013
Seven7 After reading this post I understand why you are a little upset as I would be as well. Maybe you could refine your options list a bit, why get the upgraded headliner with the sunroof, do away with the yacht floor (BMW puts carpet in M5s as far as I know) BMW doesn't offer the active air suspension (although I would get it on a model S) there are a few other things I would leave off, ambient lighting, rear facing seats (not available on the BMW) and so on. Just a few things to consider...
ETA: Just noticed you didn't have rear facing seats on your price list post, my bad.�
Aug 4, 2013
Bardlebee Kinda a cross post because I posted in the wrong forum earlier:
I'm certainly not happy with the price changes. I agree more options are great. But it seems they created more options out of bundles that were great deals before. Quite honestly I was about to make a reservation this month and now that the car I wanted jumped up another 10k it seems, I will be waiting for Gen 3. It is just sadly getting more and more illogical for me to purchase this great car. It's sad really, I wouldn't be the person you would call rich, but I make good money and I can afford to save up to have a nice payment on this vehicle. I was one of those people that went from rationalizing 40kwh all the way to 85kwh. Now, that this car is almost as expensive as my house, I would much rather pay off my house then purchase it. I mean, I am not saying buying a 100k car is sound financial advice, but I was really wanting the vehicle and I had the means to only finance 30k....
Like someone else on this thread I make about 120k with me and my wife and our only debt is our house. At this point its simply a logical choice and I am a bit disappointed I was "priced-out" as someone else noted. But I will also note that I think there are a lot of people in my situation that were stretching for the Model S, some more then others. For me it wasn't too much of a stretch, what with TSLA's stock doing well. But now its sadly a silly cost that I can't justify. I feel that there are many, many families or persons in the very situation as me. We love the car, we are in the middle/upper-middle pay bracket. We are poised to purchase or already made the purchase, but this has turned them off. I fear as I look at the other thread with the poll that many upper-middle families purchase this car, that this number will decline. So I am not only disappointed that it doesn't make financial sense for me, but I am concerned for the future of Tesla. I do hope their sales stay above their production, I wish them the best to be sure. Honestly, I feel many people may second guess their purchase like me.
Now with leather seats not including the trim, and the nappa leather separated and the fog lamps... weren't those in the tech package? Just far too much additional increase for what I thought was a reasonable cost.
I guess you could say this is the straw that broke the camels back. Just my opinion.�
Aug 4, 2013
gregincal "Hey, I'd like the new model year feature, but can you tack it on to the old model year car with the old model year pricing?" That's what it sounds like to me. Parking sensors didn't used to be available. Now they are, but it's part and parcel of a revamping of the option packaging. It doesn't in any way change the car you decided to order.�
Aug 4, 2013
michaelwb Although I'm disappointed by the changes--a price increase runs counter to the idea that Teslas will become more attainable over time, as the technology matures and economies of scale are realized--it is on par with what other manufacturers are charging for options. The primary difference is that hardly no one pays MSRP for a BMW or Mercedes. Options in particular are more heavily discounted than the car as a whole, as they can push MSRPs beyond what most are willing to pay. When we were buying our E-Class, dealers weren't too keen on discounting a bog standard model, yet they were quite receptive to slashing thousands off one with an overpriced B&O stereo, active cruise control, and panoramic sunroof.
Speaking personally, the panoramic sunroof on the Model S was a no-brainer for $1,500. At $2,500, not sure if it's worth it, especially since the primary reason for getting it is rear seat headroom. (Tesla should really consider designing a slimmer headliner, or at least having cutouts for peoples' heads like on the pano cars.) Matte wood used to be standard with leather; now it's a $650 option. So 3M Di-Noc carbon fiber wrap it is.�
Aug 4, 2013
SteveW25561 I guess in a way, for those of us that ordred before the increase, we should be happy that Tesla didn't change the model to be the "2014 Model S" then announce the option changes -- in fact, if they did, there would probably be a lot less fuss.
So, for those of us who ordered just before the bump, we do get a bit of a rise in potential resale values in the future if the pricing on the free market takes into account the current (increased) selling price (ignoring the Tesla guarantees). Since a Model S ordered last month is otherwise indistinguishable from a similarly equipped MS ordered today, the possible future resale price will either be an average of the two, or hopefully skew towards the higher price.�
Aug 4, 2013
vfx it's been said to stay in the cheapest room in the nicest hotel. You get all the perks they offer at the best price.�
Aug 5, 2013
AustinPowers Who the heck would spend 135K CAD for a Model S?
And even in USD, some of the prices are just hilarously stupid. 1,000 USD for "Premium Interior Lighting"? That is 1,000 USD for a few LED strips. Or 1,500 USD for the CF spoiler. Or fog lights as an option (like the parcel shelf, which being optional was an insult to customers from the start)? Is Tesla serious or is this supposed to be some kind of April fools joke? Not even BMW with their sometimes hair-raising option pricing would charge so much for so little.�
Aug 5, 2013
gbdesai I thinks this sadly pushed me over to a fully loaded Audi S6. Too much for too little. Really does seem like nickel and diming. For $90k you get 0-60 in 3.7s, HUD, adaptive cruise control, 360 deg view camera, night vision, Google GPS, cup holders, folding mirrors, and much much more.
It's really annoying because all I've been doing for the past year is touting the superiority of Tesla... Oh we'll maybe in a few years things will have calmed down in Fremont...�
Aug 5, 2013
AustinPowers That is if Tesla can generate enough sales of Model S / Model X to actually ever be able to make a Gen III.
I think these price increases, which are quite drastic in some cases, leave a very bad aftertaste, as they show that Tesla is becoming like every other luxury carmaker when it comes to nickel and dimeing their customers on options. Only difference being that the Model S comes out at the losing end in many ways when you honestly start to compare it to cars like 5-series, Audi A6/A7, Porsche Panamera, Merc E-Class (even the current S-Class is much cheaper in many configurations!) on standard equipment, build-quality/refinement, amenities etc. And as someone else said, for that price difference of said M5 vs. MS you get a lot of fuel/maintenance (not that maintenance would be cheap for Model S to begin with - in contrast to what Tesla blabbered about "extremely advantageous compared to an ICE on maintenance and TCO". Bull**** I say.)
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But when many of the bells and whistles on the Model S are standard on many of the competition then it becomes annoying.
If it takes KKK Dollars to bring Model S up to specs with the competition then there is something very wrong with Tesla's reasoning.
Coming from the German market, I can now see even less Model S's sold over here. Remember, no EV incentives here, so just being a 100K Euro novelty item will not sell the thing (or any future Tesla under the same marketing philosophy) here.
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PREMIUM was the wording. No one said anything about luxury. On the contrary, pricing was always one of the main selling points before the car came out. Remember how they advertized it on their website as an EV for under 50K Dollars (if you factor in the tax incentive). So luxury I think was not what they had in mind back then.
I think they are seeing now how well the Model S (at current prices / options) is selling and think "hey, let's use this momentum to up the prices to get to that 25% profit margin asap".
What they don't think about is how this will alienate many potentiel buyers who would have been happy with a MS 40 or 60 for 75K Dollars (quite a few options included) who would now have to spend quite a hefty bit more (as the prices have gone up so steeply and the 40 isn't even available any more), going so far as to take the car out of the reach of the lower end of the former potential customer base alltogether.
Bad move, especially as this is basically a big middle digit at those who would really have loved to drive this car (and thus advertise for Tesla) but for whom it would have been quite a stretch to do so.
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Hadn't though about that before, but true, that's an even worse point against Tesla.
Espcially when comparing that M5 from the example a couple of pages back. The 135K CAD for the Model S stand firm as a rock, while the 120K for the M5 are going to be subject to a substantial discount for sure.
I can see the execs in Stuttgart, Ingolstadt and Munich really rubbing their hands and grinning about that move by Tesla, thinking "right Tesla, go on and show the world that EV's are only for a select minority - like we said all along..."
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That's the kind of potential customer I am talking about.
Actually, come to think of it, I can't think of a lot of good arguments any more that I could tell people why they should buy a Model S in comparison to the competition. And don't tell me "but the competition doesn't sell an EV", because that is the least important part that people care about in that equation.�
Aug 5, 2013
alexkiritz If you're a person with time and cash to burn then maybe you can justify a gas guzzler. If you don't have time to waste at the pump and repair shop then the Model S makes more sense.�
Aug 5, 2013
AustinPowers Ahem, you have seen some of the current models from Audi, BMW, Merc, Lexus, Jaguar, Porsche? Gas guzzlers??? Have you seen the actual MPG's you get from current PREMIUM sedans half the price (but double the standard equipment) of a Model S?
Waste time at the repair shop? You do know how reliable current cars have become over the last decades and how little maintenance is needed? That is in contrast to the Model S, which you have to mandatorily service each year (which would be quite a disadvantage even when compared to my almost ten year old car - never any wasted time in a repair shop with that).
Waste time at the pump? Right, 5 minutes at the pump vs. half an hour at a SC. Maybe my math is wrong but I thought 5 min < 30 min ???
(And that is not even taking into account that on longer trips that EV disadvantage multiplies the more often you stop to refuel/recharge).
Actually, if I really HAD money to burn I certainly would buy a Model S! (That is because I would love to drive an EV just for the fun of driving it - which imho is the only selling point for a Model S right now).�
Aug 5, 2013
Anzir Sorry, but those are overused generalizations. A price delta of $20-30k can buy a ton of gasoline with free maintenance included (for BMW). Tesla has gotten greedy.�
Aug 5, 2013
ddruz A number of posts have commented that the new pricing will put the car out of reach of those folks stretching for it or those to whom money is an object. Being one of those folks when I ordered, from my perspective this will not happen. IMO the new options pricing will not alienate the folks at the lower end of the spectrum at all. The option price increases are more like a tax on the rich that does not affect the middle class which seems pretty brilliant.
For example, from following the forums closely IMO the most commonly selected options for the cost conscious buyer are:
metallic paint: no change
pano roof: +$1000
tech pkg: -$250
leather: no change
This is a net $750 increase.
However, one now has the option to get textile seats, which are extremely nice as most everyone agrees, with choice of dash materials previously only available with leather for $650. Someone watching their budget could simply drop the leather saving $1500 and add the dash of their choice for $650 which is exactly what I would do if ordering now.
That yields a net $100 decrease.
Plus the cost conscious buyer following this route can now add parking sensors and pay only $400 more than he/she would have initially for arguably the most popular options.�
Aug 5, 2013
fiksegts S6 doesn't do 0-60 in 3.7, you'll need the S8 to do that..... S6 is so boring, looks like every other Audi on the road....
�
Aug 5, 2013
GSP Is this new pricing just for US and Canada, or did Tesla's European pricing change also?
With the Model S just starting to ship to Europe, it seems like it would be smart to wait a while before raising prices there.
Thanks,
GSP�
Aug 5, 2013
TommyBoy 5 minutes versus 30 minutes? How about no minutes versus 30 minutes? We don't take 300 mile trips very often but we sure fill up on gas a lot. Connecting the Model S to the 14-50 in the garage takes 30 seconds and it can be done every other day or so. Gas for us means going to Costo because we have a 22 gallon tank and the 0.30 cents per gallon we save can be $6 or more per tank. Sometimes the Costco lot is a nightmare and we wait 15 minutes in a long line. Then you have to pump your gas for ten minutes and then navigate through hell to get out of the place. Sure we can hit the Chevron station five minutes down the road but we'll pay $90 for a full tank. The plugged-in Tesla means never having to walk into the garage in the morning and say "Crap, I needed gas. I don't think I can make it to work and back without stopping. Crap. Do I get it now or on the way home from work? Either way it will be crowded at the pumps. Crap."
Maintenance? Do you frequent the Bimmerfest forums? How about the BenzWorld forums? I do. And I spent months in them learning all I could about the 750 and the S-class just as I have learned about the Model S here. Batteries need to be trickle-charged on 100K+ cars just to start in the morning, transmissions need to be replaced three times on brand new cars at 5 days per repair (I don't think the Model S has any transmission problems), one guy in New York has gone through 8 tires and two bent rims in 6 month due to the low-profile run-flat 21" tires on his 750 and guess what - you can't get any tires from BMW that aren't run-flats! The Mercedes repairs are even more ridiculous. The common theme from those in-the-know after years of ownership of the big premium brands is lease your car and replace. To own a 750 or S-class after the initial warranty period is absolute financial suicide.
There is so much more to go wrong with a gas-powered vehicle. Exhaust systems (I hate smogging my cars every two years here in California - and it's $100 per car each time) are problematic (sensor problems, catalytic converter problems), timing belts, spark plugs, starter issues, resealing the main engine compartments (top and bottom), differential issues, transmission problems, oil changes (I can't stand these - stopped going to Jiffy Lube because they are incompetent so I have to go to the dealer which always means a wait and costs $50-$75 each change), throttle body issues, etc. I know because I've had and paid for all these repairs.
Tesla - Oh your panoramic roof makes noise? A door handle didn't present itself one time? You had to hold two buttons down and reboot your main screen twice already this year? The headliner doesn't seem super secure in one spot? Visors are a little small? No cup holders in the backseat?
Doesn't bother me a bit.�
Aug 5, 2013
AustinPowers Well, no problem here. Not only do I have to go to a gas station no more than once every two months or so, but even on long trips like to my wife's parents we drive into any cheap gas station, I fill the car up, wife goes into the shop, pays, comes out, and on we go. If five minutes have passed doing this, it was a long stop. Driving around a lot to search for the cheapest station isn't really worth it, as around here all stations are almost equally expensive. The one or two Eurocents we would save by driving to a far-off station would be offset by the gas used going there. Not worth bothering.
Electricity is also very expensive here, so hooking up the Model S every night - even though I drive less than 10 miles a day - isn't really a good solution either.
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Well, good for Tesla, if there are enough customers like you who don't mind spending a fortune on a car that is so substandard.
And about the maintenance, no, I don't visit the forums you mentioned because I don't have or had any such problem with my car, neither has any BMW, Merc or Audi driver I know of personally. I don't say that there are none, but I haven't met one yet. Of course, things in a car, any car, can break. In the Model S, the fancy handles can break, the 17-inch screen can break, the battery management can break, the electric motor can wear out, the battery degrades, the windscreen can crack (hint), the air suspension can break, as can any other part of the car.
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What on earth do you Americans do with your cars that they need so much (and so strange) maintenance*: "resealing the main engine compartments" => never heard of such a thing anywhere, "smogging" => wth is that?
Can't be that much different from our style of driving here. Apart from the fact perhaps that we don't take the car each time we visit a neighbour 500 yards down the road like everyone seems to do over on your side of the big pond... ;-)
(A fact that made me cringe when I was in the US, hardly anyone seems to walk or take the bike, train, other public transport anywhere. Not that there seemed to be many commuter train stations in many towns anyway, not even sidewalks in many residential areas. But roads everywhere, drive-ins for all kinds of stuff, hell even drive in banks! And large car parks everywhere, even the town center, where over here no one would waste precious space for endless car parks in a city center.) Anyway, rant mode off.
*Could it be that garages in the US are bull****ting their customers by telling them their car needs x y z done (charging you big bucks each time) whereas in reality modern cars (in the rest of the world) hardly break at all and require very little maintenance (especially not those ridiculous constant oil changes many here talk about, which really are a thing from the past. Hey, one can drive a car for 30K km now withouth changing any oil).�
Aug 5, 2013
gregincal Except that in my opinion the driving experience makes those other cars feel like nicely optioned dinosaurs. I don't care how many options it has, I'm not buying any car again that has to downshift to accelerate to pass. The Model S is just a far superior driving experience.�
Aug 5, 2013
Volker.Berlin Excellent point, thanks for bringing it up!�
Aug 5, 2013
TommyBoy Oh, you're European. Sorry about that. I didn't even look at your sig. Apples to Oranges. Going to a gas station once every two months? What is smogging a car? Why so much maintenance? Because my car had 112,000 miles (not km) and engines break down like crazy at those mileages. With gas only 6 times a year you probably put on under 1000 miles a year so none of this makes any sense to you.
Never mind. Nothing to see here. My bad.�
Aug 5, 2013
richkae If you have two companies that sell a similar product but one of them decides to make the ongoing service a profit center and the other one does not - which do you think is going to be more expensive up front?
Which do you think is going to attempt to engineer their product to need less service over its life? And how do you think that will in turn affect the price up front?�
Aug 5, 2013
gregincal Out of interest I went back and compared what I ordered with the current pricing. All prices are after $7500 credit (my config is in my sig):
Original price: $77400
After January price increase: $79900
Today: $82220
Now, if I were actually ordering the car today I'd probably drop the air suspension. I debated it originally because I'm worried about long term maintenance costs, but not ordering would have delayed my order. Likewise I strongly considered the Piano black trim, but since I was getting leather it seemed silly not to get the upgraded trim for free. But if I was ordering the car today, I'd probably choose a configuration that costs:
$79320
Although I'd probably add the parking sensors, because they're really cool and not that expensive and end up with: $79820
All in all, though, it wouldn't have affected my choice to buy the car in any way whatsoever. I can see somebody deciding the Perf is now beyond their means, but I think the Perf isn't really necessary anyway (the base Model accelerates plenty fast). The fact that so many people were going for fully loaded perfs show what a good deal it was. Now it isn't such a good deal and less people will go for it, but those cars will be higher margin for Tesla. The affordability of the car as a whole is unchanged.�
Aug 5, 2013
Scott Ales I guess I am the recipient of dumb luck! I ordered last month the day after my 51st birthday and take delivery this Thursday in Tampa, Fl. I don't care about park sensors because the car has a spectacular rear camera and I personally don't care for the style disruption the sensors create in the front bumper. So all that is left are the fog lights. Cool, but since they are only $500 and my savings total $9k+ I can wait to buy them later off a wrecked car or through Tesla parts.
Personally, I was driven to buy the Model S because of the mission to move the planet to a more sustainable path. Everything else is secondary to me. I have bought and sold thousands of cars in my 30 year automotive career. Everything from $200 beaters to $1.8mm Prevost motorhomes. It is the livelihood I choose as a internal combustion fanatic. It was VERY challenging to survive the 2008 crash and we still suffer from the loss of real estate values. But in the end, for me, contributing in what ever way helps Tesla move the mission down the court a bit more makes me feel better. My trivial desires, personal issues and satisfactions are again, secondary. If the new price was too much for me I would just have to wait till I could make up the spread later. Tesla has accomplished more than any other entity in the history of transportation with this effort. I don't need any justification from them on why they decided to raise the price. I appreciate the opportunity to assist in any small way. Even if it is only buying a car.
My next effort is to install a solar garden in my back yard to charge the Tesla! Another $30-$40k but what a feeling! When I think about all the ridiculous things I spent money on over the last 40 years it makes it really easy to work towards doing this.�
Aug 5, 2013
AmpedRealtor For $90k you get a full size sedan that goes the distance and is fueled with sustainable energy and doesn't require one drop of fossil fuel. If that is not important to you, and it sounds to me like you have no interest in supporting sustainable transport or lessening the world's reliance on fossil fuels, the Model S is not for you. If all you can do is compare this car to Audi and BMW and Mercedes and not consider the fact that Audi, BMW and Mercedes do not offer a viable EV competitor to Model S, you are basing your decision on the wrong factors in my opinion.
Tesla has captured 8% of the luxury car market in the US according to a new report. This is incredible success. I'm surprised that Americans want to be more environmentally conscious than our European counterparts.
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I never realized that cup holders trump lessening our reliance on fossil fuels, saving the environment and cleaning up the air that we breath. I'm glad we have our priorities straight.�
Aug 5, 2013
gbdesai Don't hurt yourself stepping off of your oh so high soapbox.�
Aug 5, 2013
hans A ridiculous amount of gas and a ton of maintenance seems about right for a M5 ;-)�
Aug 5, 2013
Krugerrand Does the truth hurt?�
Aug 5, 2013
Anzir The electricity is produced burning coal so the S is still tied to fossil fuels... and it's "breathe" BTW. The Model S is a great electric car but it is also in competition with the high end lux market. There are and should be high expectations at this price point.�
Aug 5, 2013
montgom626 Exactly
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I thought that maintenance was included in the price of a BMW for the first 4 years??�
Aug 5, 2013
TommyBoy Maybe. It also could be nuclear, hydroelectric, wind, solar, etc. East Coast is mostly still coal. Pacfiic Northwest is almost all hydroelectric. And all of those alternate sources can also be extremely destructive to the environment if great care isn't taken in how they are implemented. It's a step in the right direction, however, and when I look at the huge looming cloud of smog over LA I will feel a slight bit of joy knowing that my car sitting on the freeway is not - at that exact moment - contributing to the problem like all the vehicles around me.�
Aug 5, 2013
onesixeight
Yes, that's correct. One of the last major manufactures to include maintenance.
People make a big deal about reduced maintenance cost with the MS, but doesn't it cost $600 for the annual service? If so, that's right in line with an ICE car.
Disclosure: Still own my F10 M5 and recent MS P85+ owner.�
Aug 5, 2013
dsm363 Coal generates about 23% of electricity in Florida.
http://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=FL
and 35% coal for Arizona
Your Questions Answered | Tesla Motors
That said, yes it is in competition with other cars in its price range. If driving electric doesn't at least crack the top 5 reasons for buying the car then it will be a tough sale.�
Aug 5, 2013
JasonZDel I will probably get flamed since this is my first post. However, I have been a LONG time lurker and recent joiner of the site in anticipation of ordering my very own P85 (or maybe even P85+) as my birthday present in a few months.
As someone who has not yet joined the MS club - and I'm sure many of you will remember when you were on the cusp of ordering - this price difference WILL matter. I will not go so far as AC1K did and say the car is not worth it. I have no authority since I don't own one. However, even with a budget of $120k to spend on a car, this does make me second guess my infatuation with this car. I will now have to reconsider my first love, the CLS63. As AC1K illustrates, one can no longer justify the MC based on economic reasons. One must justify the car despite unfavorable economic reasons.
I have no doubt that this is the car of the future. I am no longer convinced that the car is a better bang for your buck.�
Aug 5, 2013
dsm363 They have said yearly maintenance isn't required but I'd still have it done. If you prepay for 4 years it is $475/year.
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Welcome! I agree the bang for your buck argument is definitely lessened or gone at the top end you are looking at but you can still consider gas savings. Over a high performance vehicle with a V8 you're looking at maybe $2-4k a year depending on how much you drive. That helps a little and may bring it back in line to break even with your $120k price point. Don't forget the $7,500 federal tax credit. With the tax credit and assuming $2,000/year in gas and $500 in electricity and 5 years of ownership you are looking at $15,000 off so could break even with a $120k car in 5 years in this example. Obviously the math will vary on the individual. Also, the Texas triangle should be covered with Superchargers by early next year.�
Aug 5, 2013
Trnsl8r I'm a bit befuddled over the forced bundling of the twin chargers with HPWC at $2700...
I ordered the twin chargers, but never looked twice at the HPWC. The twin chargers were to be able to take advantage of any 70A chargers on the road, but at home I have no need for more than the 26mph or so my 14-50 offers. The prospect of trying to offload a HPWC on ebay just because you wanted to future-proof your car with twin chargers can't be very attractive. Wondering why they did that...?�
Aug 5, 2013
Lloyd Not only that, but what about people that already have an HPWC and are ordering a 2nd car, or have sold one or are replacing a car in an accident! They surely do not need another!!�
Aug 5, 2013
Anzir For the same reason they charge extra for fog lights on a close-to-6-figure car... because there is demand and because they can.�
Aug 5, 2013
onesixeight I saw in another thread that Tesla is telling people that they can return it if they don't need the HPWC in the package. But I agree, I like the old package better and skip the hassle of returning the unwanted HPWC�
Aug 5, 2013
AmpedRealtor I don't think the Model S ever represented a "better bang for your buck", but I could be mistaken...
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And who pays the shipping on the returned HPWC that was never needed in the first place? Exactly...�
Aug 5, 2013
patp +1 You're right. Doesn't make sense. Totally unrelated. I don't need twin chargers at home, I need them on the road. We have many 90 amps here in Canada. Also, what if I'm buying a new car car (like upgrading to a P85+) and already have an HPWC?�
Aug 5, 2013
patp I think you're right. What some are forgetting is that some people are buying the S as an alternative to another luxury car (not because they want to be green). I know many people like that. Before, you could always say the S was about the same price as a BMW 5 series for each version (ex. P85 vs M5) and that on top of that you would save gas.
Now, it's really a question of paying much more for an electric car. Maybe the market is big enough for this and that it's a clever decision. Only the future will tell.�
Aug 5, 2013
hans You are correct. If you are only buying for 4 years its a completely different discussion. I have owned two BMWs 5 series cars for over 12 years each and the repair bills add up over time, starting right about when the warranty expires. Window regulators, plastic components in the cooling system, leaking valve gaskets, leak prone power steering reservoir located right above the alternator, pretty much every bushing in the suspension system, disappearing pixels on the main console, failed final stage unit in the HVAC, the list goes on and on. This is not just my BMWs either, these are well knows issues that every used car buyer needs to check out when purchasing an older Bimmer. Anyone want to buy my 1999 540iT for what I put into it in the last 18 months?
Granted we don't yet know what issues an older Tesla will have in comparison. I bought the 4 year extended warranty so I don't have to care.
Honestly the Tesla doesn't handle quite as well as my e39 does but I don't regret making the switch at all. If I feel the need to be more connected to the road again I just jump in the Miata.�
Aug 5, 2013
SFOTurtle I had a 1993 BMW 525i that had, I believe, all if not all of the issues you mentioned. Got rid of it earlier this year rather than continue to pay thousands of dollars (for non-dealer labor and parts that I generally tried to purchase online) every year. I too bought the extended warranty for the Tesla just because of the unknown, and because electronic problems on cars are typically very expensive to fix.�
Aug 5, 2013
ChriZ Looks like this guy just added every Model S option available with no regard to comparing feature to feature with the M5. I configured a typical setup for the M5 and configured the Model S the same way and comes out cheaper after federal tax rebates.
And in regards to the recent option price hikes, i think different buyers will value different options. If you don't like it, just don't get it. At the end of the day, the base price of the car and battery is what really matters and the main reason why you should buy this car.
2014 M5
BASE MSRP $90,900
+ Black Full Merino Leather w/AnthraciteA lcantara Headliner $3,500
+ Executive Package $5,500
+ Destination & Handling:$925
= Total MSRP as Built $100,825
Model S Base Price With $7,500 Federal Tax Credit $62,400
+ Grey Metallic Paint $750
+ All Glass Panoramic Roof $2,500
+ 21" Grey Turbine Wheels $4,500
+ Piano Black D�cor Included
+ Black Performance Leather Seats $2,500
+ BATTERY 85 kWh Performance $20,000
+ OPTIONS Tech Package $3,500
+ Smart Air Suspension $2,250
+CHARGING Supercharger Enabled Included
+ TOTAL Destination and Regulatory Doc Fee $1,170
= VEHICLE PRICE $99,570�
Aug 5, 2013
brianman (1) Hopefully not.
(2) Hogwash. You seem to be a decent fellow. Your voice is welcome regardless of what you have or haven't bought or reserved.
Welcome to the forum.
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Perhaps you can drop it off at the nearest service center and/or store. They'll work this out and have clearly expressed the intent to make this right. Give them some time. Decaf.�
Aug 5, 2013
AustinPowers I'm not argueing with that at all.
But if many other everyday usage aspects keep nagging me, then at some point it becomes so much that it's annoying for a car of such a price tag. Of such a car I expect not only a superior driving experience (which imho I can also get from almost any well motorized modern sedan of 70K Euro and up), but a great ownership experience all around.
And when I pay so much money and get (among other things)
a) no power folding mirrors (at all)
b) no usable trunk lighting (as standard)
c) no fold-down rear-seat armrest (at all)
d) no fog lights (as standard)
e) no floormats (as standard)
f) no center console (as standard)
g) no parcel shelf (as standard)
h) no adjustable headrests
i) no seats with enough side bolstering
j) a pano roof with lots of strange wind-noises
k) possible early wear and tear on the b-pillar covering
l) headliner that doesn't fit properly all around
m) mandatory (expensive) yearly service (in contrast to my current "once every three or four years")
(Those are just the first things that come to mind)
then the everyday user experience (especially when driving dynamics aren't really that important in daily usage, with heavy traffic, small parking spaces, narrow roads, etc.) is hampered quite a bit.
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No offence taken at all.
By the way, I drive about 6,500 miles a year, in some years 10,000. True, that's not much. It's mainly due to the fact that for the past years most of my daily commute is now by public transport (train, subway), and for longer family trips we take our other car (minivan).
Plus my car get's a great mpg ratio. On one gas (diesel actually) tank I can go about 625 miles.
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Well, sorry to destroy your illusions, but the major part of electricity worldwide (with the exception of some lucky and wise countries like Norway) is still produced (and even with the current change towards renewables will be for decades to come) by burning fossil fuels, mainly coal, oil or gas or - even worse - by nuclear power.
As long as that fact remains, driving a Model S is in no way better for the environment (or consciousness) than driving a modern ICE car with a great actual mpg. (We live 5 miles from a large coal power station, so the air we breathe wouldn't be much better by getting rid of my ICE car).
And of course we care about the environment. Our house is heated by a heatpump, we reuse our collected rainwater, and if it was technically possible and feasible (which with our house it isn't) we would use solar power for heating and electricity as well. We drive cars with great mpg's, we use the bike or public transport wherever possible, we grow a lot of our own fruits and vegetables in our garden, and so on and so forth.
So of course I would like to drive an even more environmentally friendly car (which the Model S isn't - see above), but even so a car for me has to fulfill certain expectations (which the Model S doesn't - anymore), not that they would be overly luxurious. (for example I wouldn't call expecting power folding mirrors on such a huge car a stretch of the imagination, nor expecting a parcel shelf as standard when even any small hatchback has one).
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At least Tesla has always (and still does) tried to describe the Model S as financially advantageous over an ICE.�
Aug 6, 2013
sub Point made. Your reasons and expectations to buy an MS are clearly different from others here. I would never consider buying a gas car that cost more than 30, maybe 40k max. My current vehicles are an average of 15 years old and total value of 12k. I just spent more than twice that to put solar on my roof so when I buy my tesla (waiting for X) I will be driving for free off renewable energy. Something had to be done to change the path that the world is on regarding energy, I'm willing to step up with my cash. I don't mind the new option pricing at all, I may configure a car slightly different but I wouldn't enjoy it any less.
You seem to have made up your mind, I have no problem with that though its disappointing to see someone else unwilling to contribute to the future over such minor things. I hope once you have some time to think about it more you will swing back towards the MS, my daughter would appreciate it.�
Aug 6, 2013
tdiggity Will pre-increase owners be able to take advantage of this with trading in, I wonder? If my P85 costs 12k more now and it's 6 months old with 6k miles, it seems like I should break even minus the taxes on a new p85...
Edit: I just realized my extended warranty isn't transferable to the trades in vehicle and so I'd have to pay 4k for that. But aside from that there could be an interesting arbitrage deal that older owners could play with.�
Aug 6, 2013
wdimagineer I'm stopping by Menlo Park tomorrow to inquire about this. Took delivery 6/28. Have around 1,100 miles on the clock. I think retrofitting the options I'm now missing will cost more than me just trading it in for a new build.
I'll let you know how it goes.�
Aug 6, 2013
AustinPowers As I have said and elaborated I am more than willing to contribute to the future. My next car will definitely by driven by alternative energy, just the Model S is not the car I had hoped for. Currently I am hoping the Gen III will be that car. In the meantime I am looking into the Zoe, the e-Golf and the BMW Active Tourer Hybrid as in-between alternatives, with the Zoe being my favorite at the moment.
I have two daughters by the way, and they would appreciate if the majority of Americans would take the positive path that you and many others here have taken, instead of wasting so much of our earth's resources like most Americans still do without caring, making the US the biggest energy consumer in the world.�
Aug 6, 2013
dsm363 Where do you come up with the Model S isn't better for then environment that most gas cars? The Model S even on 100% coal is better for the environment than all high performance sedans. Most V8s or M5 equivalents don't get 35mpg or so combined. You said 'even worse - by nuclear' when that would be the best in terms of CO2 and other pollutants (nuclear waste disposal is a different matter). Most of the US isn't 100% coal at least, not even close.
As to your list, I could come up with a list like that for almost any car but it definitely sounds like this isn't the car for you. Some of your list are fit and finish issues from early production which are less of a problem now. I don't know of any ICE that only requires service every 3 or 4 years and still lets you keep your warranty intact. On my old Volvo and VW at least, I had to bring it in every year (was included in price of car though) or the warranty was void.
With the amount you drive, would think the Model S would work quite well but you wouldn't save much money in fuel of course. Given the long list of mandatory options you have I agree, you should probably look to something else. I don't see how the Zoe would be a better driving experience though or have more power.�
Aug 6, 2013
AustinPowers I haven't got a high performance car, nor would I ever need or want one. I am comparing the Model S (non-Perf!) to what it would replace here, my Diesel car with great fuel efficiency. As the electricity mix which powers the Model S includes a lot of fossil fuel power, it isn't really very good for the environment just because it hasn't got an exhaust pipe.
Of course, nuclear power is one of the least CO2 laden, but nuclear waste is the most dangerous thing on the planet, so I am very happy that at least in Germany we are outphasing this horrendous technology.
Strange, I don't know of any car that would need yearly maintenance, not even close.
Judging by some of the threads in the "Interior & Exterior" section, those issues still remain, along with some new ones I didn't even mention.
The options I listed imho are not mandatory in general, but mandatory for any car in the price range of a Model S.
And I never said the Zoe would be a better driving experience or have more power. As I have said, I don't need a car with the power of a Model S (which I think is grossly overpowered anyway. No one needs a car with a weight of over two tons that can accelerate to 100 kph in less than six seconds.
The Zoe costs about a quarter (!) of the Model S, while being quite well equipped, spacious and powerful enough for my everyday use, and the range is ample as well.
By the way, I have a test-drive with a Zoe this Saturday, with the Model S on Sept 4.
Then I can make real-life comparisons that are backed by personal experience. Will open a thread about the experience then.�
Aug 6, 2013
dsm363 I don't want to take this any further off topic but dig a little into the environmental impact of an EV on the standard fuel mix where you live (and of diesel). If you are comparing a large 4,600lb sedan against a small efficient ICE then the smaller car will likely be more efficient.
Every car I know of in the US at least requires a checkup every year or X miles (whichever comes first) to keep warranty intact. You can skip it but if something goes wrong and they determine it was because you didn't come in they won't cover it (same with Tesla actually).
Anyway, comparing the Model S to a car that costs 1/4 the amount means the cheaper car will win the economic argument every time. I'm sure the Zoe is a great car from what I've read so will be interesting to read the comparison. Thanks.�
Aug 6, 2013
AmpedRealtor It's only a soapbox because you're not up there with me...
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And when you clean up that centralized power source, you clean up every single EV on the road instantly. You cannot do that with any ICE vehicle because an ICE vehicle will forever burn gasoline and produce pollutants and CO2 emissions. See the difference? I live in a state where we have roughly equal mixes of coal, nuclear and hydro. I have a 14 kWh solar array on my roof which charges my vehicle and feeds green power back to the grid for my neighbors to enjoy, which lessens everyone's reliability on fossil fuels. I'm not just helping myself, I'm also helping my community.
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This is my point. For some people, buying a Model S is no different than a BMW or Mercedes - they are comparing everything but the drive train. Look, the Model S is not going to be as luxurious and opulent as a Mercedes. Can we just get over it? Despite what some of you may think, luxury is not the primary selling point of Model S. It just isn't - anyone who has looked at the vehicle or sat in it knows that it is not on the same level as a high end Mercedes, BMW, etc.
If the electric drive train, ease of charging, and extended range do not trump the quality of the leather or design of the cup holders, then I'm afraid you are completely missing the point of this vehicle. If you are more concerned with having a 360� camera, night vision and HUD in your vehicle, and you are so laser focused on those amenities, you are completely missing why this car is wonderful. If your concern for being bathed in luxury trumps your concern for the environment and lessening our reliance on unsustainable and destructive fossil fuels, you really are better served with a vehicle that better fits your world view.
Some people look marvel at the Model S as being a kick ass EV with some really nice amenities and features. Others look down on it for not having enough lux features as compared to other cars in its price range, completely ignoring the EV side of the story. For those people - and there are a few of you here - I simply say go elsewhere. If all you care about is luxury and the EV and sustainability part are not part of the equation for you, I don't think you will ever appreciate why this car is held in such high esteem.
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I'd love to see your references on this. According to you, because "the major part of electricity worldwide is still produced by burning fossil fuels", we should not look at the Model S as being better for the environment than a gas guzzling BMW M5 - which uses more fossil fuels to manufacture and then requires a lifetime of burning gasoline? I'm sorry but I just don't agree with your assertions.
But putting the inclusion of a parcel shelf and power folding mirrors ahead of the car being electric and much more environmentally friendly clearly shows - again - that you are not the market for this vehicle and should probably go and buy something that gives you the kind of cup holders you want. Because that's why we buy a car, right, to carry our coffees and cover our luggage from prying eyes?
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But the Zoe has a scent diffuser! lol�
Aug 6, 2013
fizzazle couldn't agree more.
this is my first EXPENSIVE car. (I did have a 335i before the MS but before that it was 2 civics and a toyota celica. The 335i was less than HALF of the MS and was a fantastic car!).
there was an article a few weeks ago talking about how electric cars are such a new/novel idea/product that pricing and looks (of the vehicle) don't seem to matter.
I definitely know many people that drive $75k + vehicles that bought a prius or a volt or a leaf. (ie. "well off" families buying "cheap" electric/hybrid (cosmetically challenged vehicles).
I am a prime example of the reverse/opposite. I know at least a few people that bought this car that are in the lower end of the "middle class".
This price increase just seems like it is going to alienate/eliminate that small part of the their market......
I do also agree with the other comments though regarding "fair market value". Clearly the demand is still there and since there are still production constraints (for whatever reason) an obvious (and lucrative) solution is to "inch up" the price until supply=demand.
I paid 109k for my P85 fully loaded. (Plus model was not out at that time (thank god!)).
For those of you interested in the car but waiting.....I hope you are at least investing in the stock! Now the stock will have to appreciate FASTER than the price increases to make your procrastination worth it!�
Aug 6, 2013
NoMoGas There are cupholders, as for the rest Ill give em up for such a cool car�
Aug 6, 2013
NoMoGas I'm going to do my best to not write the visceral response I had to such rubbish. First of all, even when using in a coal plant for power to charge the MS it is STILL better then an ICE... and not by a little. Secondly, most if not all of Tesla's supercharger stations are run from solar and many people (including myself) install solar charging stations for their vehicles. Major cities across the US are moving to a 20% renewable portfolio by 2020 and 50% by 2040. It's slow, but progress usually is. The maintenance costs on an electric motor is considerably less then that of an ICE so, all in all IF you are in the market for a high end car such as a Maserati Quatroporte, Jaguar XF or similar, this really is a much better car for the money with a much lower cost of ownership IMHO.�
Aug 6, 2013
Morristhecat I just priced out my car, with the exact same options as i have to see what price increase is. It went up $8,000! Wow! Glad I bought when I did, or i wouldn't have gotten a Tesla. It was already just at my absolute limit, this would have pushed me over for sure. I imagine there are folks wanting in the club that can't now. I imagine this price increase will eliminate some middle class purchasers, which is too bad. I remember when this was supposed to be a $50,000 car.�
Aug 6, 2013
AustinPowers Well, where to start.
1) Of course the Model S is a kick ass EV, I NEVER said anything to the contrary. I absolutely adore (do I sound too much like Jeremy Clarkson at this point? Sorry for that.) the EV aspect of the Model S
2) Amenities have never been MY priority, nor are they the main selling point of a Model S of course.
3) But even though this car is a kick ass EV, it costs as much as a luxury ICE car over here. With the 85er battery and some options it's 100K Euro (non Perf of course), for crying out loud! What I am saying and all I have been saying all along is that at that price point, customers (not ME in particular, because at 100K Euro the Model S is out of my price range now anyway) are not just looking for the "kick ass EV" aspect, but comparing the car as a whole (at least here they do). And those customers care about build quality and amenities a lot, even though it might not be a dealbreaker alltogether.
Every science / economy / ecology magazine I have read in the past years has statistics about the electricity mix. And remember, I don't live in Norway (I'd love to though, because then the Model S would be affordable and ecologically perfect again).
Again, I am not putting those facts AHEAD of the kick ass EV aspect, but how to put it to make myself finally understood? Ok, I am trying to say that it's a big fault if a company, even if the product is a kick ass EV, intentionally (and unnecessarily) makes said product less attractive by nickel and dimeing for items that come standard even on cars that are far inferior to the Model S in every other aspect.
Which is the only thing about the Zoe I don't care the least bit about.�
Aug 7, 2013
AustinPowers That was the time when I got fascinated with the Model S and started advertising it and Tesla to my friends, family and colleagues.
They all were doubtful and told me I was crazy for believing a car with the stats of the Model S could be so cheap. They compared what I told them about the Model S with an Opel Ampera (Chevy Volt for you in the US), which starts at 45K Euro even though it isn't nearly in the same league as a Model S. At that time the 57,490 USD Model S base price equated to a little over 40K Euro (which of course I knew wouldn't be the base price Tesla could and would offer over here, but still).
Now when my friends, family and colleagues ask me about the Model S I have to tell them that it's actually over 70K Euro base price, with the 85er battery and some options it's almost at 100K Euro. And what do they tell me? "We told you so. So much for your fantasy about an affordable EV."
Thank you Tesla for making me look like an idiot to all of those I tried to sell your idea and cars to! All my efforts in the last years did was drive them away from Tesla (which they see as a luxury carmaker for a selected rich crowd and not as a forward thinking company that tries to bring EVs mainstream). I can see where this is going. Like so often, VW (and others) will jump on the bandwagon late (but not too late), and will capture the EV market in the end, possibly before Tesla can even get to making a Gen III. Which would really annoy me, because then all the naysayers would have been right after all.
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No need to go visceral. I didn't write that "rubbish" based on nothing, but from what applies to me here. I am happy for you if circumstances are different in your area.
1) We live very near a coal power plant that is even in the process of being massively extended at the moment, to cater for the "base load" of German power supply. The more electricity is used, the more that power plant is used for base load (as it is one of those that has to compensate for the German nuclear power plants which will all be taken offline in the next few years, quite a few have already been) and the more our air is polluted. So at least for us, currently, more EVs and more electricity used directly means more air pollution in our town.
2) Many people (myself included) have no feasible possibility for using solar power to generate their own electricity. And paying 20K Euro up front for solar panels that would then yield little return doesn't seem like a good idea to lower TCO of an EV, to be honest.
3) Great if US cities are achieving such ambitious goals, here it is quite different. Now that people feel in their pockets how the ongoing switch to renewables is gradually making electricity a luxury item, many are not so keen anymore, even though there used to be a large "green" movement here a while ago. Sadly, reality has set in. And at about 30 Eurocents (that's around 40 US cents) per kWh on average, and still rising sharply, that reality is getting to many people who are normally quite eco-minded. Because wages on the whole here don't rise as sharply as electricity prices (and other costs) - if at all.
4) And don't start the maintenance argument again. That might hold true in the US, but definitely not here in general.
By the way, I am NOT in the market for a 100K Euro car, my absolute limit would have been 75K Euro. Which is more than one and a half times the biggest amount I have ever spent on a car.�
Aug 7, 2013
brianman Everybody's a critic, so I'll take my turn...
To my knowledge, Tesla hasn't pitched Model S as an affordable EV. A possible EV (for some customers), yes. An awesome EV, definitely. But affordable is an adjective they've reserved for Gen 3.
So if your friends, family, and colleagues tell you they don't think it's "affordable" you should be telling them that they're talking about the wrong vehicle.�
Aug 7, 2013
AustinPowers Tesla has always tried to get the Model S come across as affordable. The whole "great EV for less than 50K USD" argument they used for years as well as their current TCO calculator that tries to imply how cheap it is to own a Model S in comparison to an ICE all point in that direction.�
Aug 7, 2013
brianman "Affordable" is not the same as "better value". Tesla has described the S in terms of the latter, not the former.
An example: My (cable) internet is a better value (to me) than a dial-up modem by far. It's definitely not more affordable than dial-up though.*
* Caveat: This example was correct 10 years ago. I'm not sure if it's still true today since they may have killed off all those phone farms that used to answer dial-up requests.�
Aug 7, 2013
AustinPowers Yes, but "great EV for less than 50K USD" sounds quite like "affordable" (at least in usable EV terms) to me.�
Aug 7, 2013
brianman By that metric you could say "any non-suck* EV under 7 figures is affordable".
* Sorry, Leaf. Mostly making a point. I appreciate the role that vehicle plays in the history of EVs, but it's not for me.
I guess my point is that Tesla hasn't specifically used that word ("affordable"), so much so that it's conspicuous. Kind of like their attempt to be consistent about "premium" instead of "luxury" is conspicuous.�
Aug 7, 2013
NoMoGas OK so let me see if I understand your point. The Model S is an awesome car that sucks, in your rather troll-like posts. There is no "argument" to be had when it comes to the Electric Motor and maintenance. You're wrong, deal with it. When calculating costs for the car one must count savings in fuel, if available but according to you Germany is going hog wild for coal while raising the price of electricity, lowering your wages and polluting the hell out of your air. Oh, and you aren't going to buy a Model S because for the aforementioned reasons and you cant afford it... to which you seem upset because Tesla fraudulently claimed the car was affordable while conveniently ignoring that this was a VISION for Tesla which is still under way. The "cheap" MS wasn't selling so it was discontinued. That's called market forces at work, not some grand bait and switch conspiracy.
Probably time to start getting politically active in your town. Who knows? Perhaps if you spent half the time engaging your community for change as you do complaining about Tesla you might actually get somewhere.
Secondly, and Im just curious here, do you spend the rest of your time on Lamborghini Forums bitching about gas guzzlers? I mean maybe I'm off here but what is the point? If you want the cheaper car, hang on till 2017. But coming to a Tesla forum complaining about Tesla's, only to ignore the rational counter's to your mis-information seems a futile and frankly aggravating journey. If the car doesn't work for you for whatever reason, don't buy one. The criticism on this thread has left constructive long ago IMHO�
Aug 7, 2013
Nathan Smith Really?
In at least two places on thier main website they are pushing afforability...
Very front page:
"580 after gas savings" (compare that statement to say buying an accord that cost right at $300 month)
from the "true cost of ownership" page:
We also encourage you to think about Model S ownership in terms of true out of pocket cost. When considering the savings from using electricity instead of gasoline, depreciation benefits, and other factors, buyers can save hundreds of dollars per month compared to owning a gasoline powered car.
BTW: the whole fianancing plan was about making the car more *afforable* (see Tesla Tweaks Model S Financing To Make It More Affordable | PluginCars.com )�
Aug 7, 2013
AustinPowers Thanks Nathan. At least I am not the only one who read it that way.
Actually I wondered whether I should even answer your very personal (and quite insulting) post at all. Because your accusations are more than baseless. Plus I don't get what your problem is.
1) Since when did I say the Model S "sucks" - or anything to that end??? I think I made it quite clear in many posts that I think the Model S, especially for the EV aspect, is a great car.
2) The maintenance argument wasn't about the fact that EVs need less of that, I don't contest that. But it was in the light of the cost argument that I made my remark. Fact of the matter is, the Model S requires mandatory yearly service, no car I have ever known or had required that. Anyway, moving on.
3) "Germany is going hog wild for coal while raising the price of electricity, lowering your wages and polluting the hell out of your air"???
As Germany is switching off its nuclear power stations, the big electricity providers are building quite a few new coal power stations (as well as gas) and expanding exisiting ones. That is a fact. If you want to call that "going hog wild", then so be it. The price of electricity is being raised mainly for political reasons, to finance the switch to renewable energy (which will take decades to come) and to make people waste less energy. The fact is so important that it has become one of the big issues in the current election programs, with some parties even demanding free base electricity contingents for people, because they say that people have a right to affordable energy! This is not me whining about the fact (I can pay for our electricity bill without a problem) but a general problem that is developing in this country. Oh and since when did I say anything about lowering wages. What I was trying to say was that for many people they don't rise, at least not as much as inflation does. That is something quite different. And about the air pollution: do you live next to a 40-year old coal power station? If yes then you know what I am talking about. If no, why make such snidey remarks?
4) The "cheap" MS wasn't selling so it was discontinued. ?? Well, it was discountinued before it even hit the general market over here!
5) Getting politically active in my town? Sorry, but you really have no idea of the German political system. Towns have nothing to say in any kind of matter that has any impact on things like transportation, EV benefits or energy, which are all legislated by the national government (which at the moment shows no interest in making EVs an attractive alternative). After that there is the federal states and the counties. To get to that political level where you have any kind of say and impact, you have to be a full time politician. And I already have a fulltime job plus family with two kids. So sorry, but when I come home from work I like to spend as much time with my family as possible, instead of wasting my time in futile attempts to get anywhere in politics. Plus we are active in our neighbourhood community, kindergarten, etc., which I think is far more important.
6) Forums. This is the only forum (car related or otherwise) I am active in at the moment. I used to also be on the Flare.Solareclipse SciFi forum, but in the last few years didn't find the time anymore.
The reason I am active here is because Tesla and their cars fascinate me. But fascination with something doesn't mean you have to be blind to the shortcomings, nor does it mean that critizicing something specific about the Model S can't go hand in hand with liking the rest of the car.
And finally, if you think my posts are "troll-like", perhaps because there sometimes are spelling or grammar mistakes, then I challenge you to converse with me in German, instead of me trying my best to make myself understood in your (to me foreign) language!�
Aug 7, 2013
deonb You:
Tesla:
"even if you never bring in the car, your warranty is still valid."
http://www.teslamotors.com/service�
Aug 7, 2013
AustinPowers Ok, sorry, I didn't know that.
There were some lengthy discussions here about that and I thought the fact was you had to have yearly service in order to maintain the warranty.
I stand corrected.�
Aug 7, 2013
AnOutsider You used to, they back tracked on it earlier this year I believe (when they started revamping service)�
Aug 7, 2013
joer00 Just priced my 5 month old P85, would be 18.000 $ more expensive now, wow ! I think they make a mistake here. The P85 Plus is now at the price of a new Maserati, it will be interesting to see the sales and which model gets bought the most.
I for myself would not chose ANY of the upgrades and rather have it done after market. For 18k I get the the best sound system, two new recaro seats with air ventilation and lots of leather on my doors AND would have something unique.�
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