Dec 26, 2011
efusco *Posted in another thread at the Teslamotors.com forums.
If I have a frustration with Tesla in all this, it is this...I wish they would throw a bone to those of us who supported them with an unsecured loan--some of us for as long as 3 years now.
For those of us who ordered before the final pricing, or before the IPO, or before the Beta reveal--whatever random date they want to pick--but clearly those who took a risk, gambled some hard earned $$ to support Elon's shared dream, he should have thrown a bone.
My solution for improved reservation holder satisfaction:
Reveal the pricing, then offer the "mandatory $5000 options" for free if you buy a Performance model, and the Tech package and metallic paint for free to the standard models. And certainly those who preordered the Signatures shouldn't have to pay$3500 extra for a bit of badging and a few unique paint and interior embellishments--at least honor their $40k down payment by giving them all that for the same price as a fully packed non-signature model.
It's really not too late to do this...they let us sweat and stomp our feet for a week or two, then come back and offer the above, or $2500 in options credit, or something like that to offset all this angst.
I can dream....
�
Dec 26, 2011
ckessel While I'm sympathetic, having been a Sig holder myself, we've been through this in multiple threads now. Did we really need another?�
Dec 26, 2011
efusco Thought I had a slightly different take on things, perhaps I don't. I agree there are many threads on the subject of dissatisfaction. I don't actually sympathize much with most of them, but this is more a generic appeal to some token of appreciation to the early reservation makers that would not be extended to those to reserve here on out.�
Dec 26, 2011
gg_got_a_tesla I've had (only?) $5k locked up for just shy of 2 years now. No, I don't think we should expect any more from Tesla - the Beta factory event and some of the freebie shwag in the mail were good enough in my opinion. Being at the front of the queue and having our cars delivered by late 2012 or so is really what I expected from locking that money in with Tesla. It's a lot of money (the sig $40k more so) for most of us and many of us got a rude wake up call from the options pricing announcement but, I think Tesla has been very fair all along.�
Dec 27, 2011
Adm I don't think Tesla is in any position to throw anybody a bone. Model S is going to be make or break for Tesla. It is the reason why the higher priced cars will be produced first and leasing by Tesla is impossible unless done by a bank or leasing company.
I can understand the disappointment by many reservation holders who have had too much time to think about the car, how it will look and how much it will cost. Let's face it: I've never waited more than 8 weeks for a new car and that was always for a car that had been in production for years with a known price for the car and the options. To be confronted with the actual prices is bound to disappoint people. For me as an European wanting a 160 mi battery, charging is an issue also.
That said, I�ve gone back on the reasons why I gave Tesla a interest free, unsecured loan in the first place. Of course, Model S has been a beautiful car from the prototype to the Beta�s and despite going 0-60 in "only" 6.5s it will still be the fastest car I've ever owned, but above and beyond it's an electric car by the company that ignited the latest attempt to make electric cars work. It is Tesla that made the OEM's sweat and come up with EV's and hybrids across the board (even if only for green washing purposes). Fuel consumption has come down on cars where fuel economy never was a serious issue.
My tiniest of contributions is to stick with Tesla and provide them (thru Widodh's petition for 3 fase charging) with costumer needs and wishes and hope they learn from it so Model S, and all models that will follow, will be a success. Convincing 8k pioneers is one thing, selling 20k cars a year will be another. Waiting for another year is going to be a greater pain.�
Dec 27, 2011
KenEE Well it might not be free, but if you apply your $5k deposit toward the $5k options then you're not out of pocket.
The $5k I put down is so long gone it will seem like "free money".
Ken�
Dec 27, 2011
NielsChr Totally agree with Adm, couldn�t be said more precisely.
If Tesla should give anything away, it would be on behalf of raising other prices - e.g. options, base model, yearly maintenance or like....this is a startup company, and I don't expect they will make good profit for a long time.
just as a side note - I do not agree that the signature is overpriced, people do mention 3500$, it has perforated leather interior - I do not expect this to come free either for Tesla (maybe added value 500$) - witch bring down the theoretic overprice to 3000$ - for those 3000 you got special branding (You may say you own a "Signature") , you will get the car before all others, and in addition your car is an early version.
Please note that only people witch are not concerned about an extra 3000$ should buy the Signature model. This model may have minor flaws, witch should be handle in the first couple of months�.if you are concerned about 3000$ you should consider not to getting a Signature edition, this is for the rich (Im not included). Since the first versions may require few changes in the first months, witch I expect will give Tesla some added cost in respect of transportation to/from your car...
All in all I do not think Tesla is making more benefit from a Signature over an Base model S.
- so if you�re not in that league just relax and wait for the Base model�
Dec 27, 2011
VolkerP @OP
you want LOVE for putting a deposit into a startup company? Then you ask for a few grand? Strange concept. But I heard in Las Vegas it is legal. :biggrin:
In all earnest: Reservation holders got a few bones: the 1/16 RC roadster model, and other gifts. Invitation to the Fremont factory event. Newsletters to participate in an awesome development. But they can't throw cash out of the window.
If you want a reward for putting money in a fledging, unproven company then put some cash into it. Supply venture capital or buy stock. It's not too late to do that!�
Dec 27, 2011
dhrivnak I too agree with ADM. Tesla has MANY challenges trying to take on established auto companies and big oil. I have built an EV and two plug in Hybrids and there is no-way one could make a car close to the model S for the price Tesla has committed to. I personally think the pricing is agressive for the current state of EV's.
Here is another way to look at it, comparing the Roadster to the Model S. For $20,000 less one gets a car that is almost as fast but yet has 300 miles of range versus 235, seats 7 versus 2, has 30+ cubic ft of storage versus 6.5, has 8 year unlimited battery warranty versus 4 year. Those are very solid and impressive improvements in my humble opinion.
Now does anyone want to buy my Roadster so I can get in line for a model S?�
Dec 27, 2011
Trnsl8r Well when you put it like that...�
Dec 27, 2011
GSP I also agree with ADM and dhrivnak, who have very eloqulanty and accurately described the situation, in my opinion.
GSP�
Dec 27, 2011
ckessel Yep, all the exact same arguments we had before. I completely disagree with NeilsChr and ADM and think they are completely failing to understand the view point of those that will have had $40k locked up in an very high risk company for a year or two. I don't see any of us changing our minds on this though.
Folks have staked out one position or another and I don't think anyone is going to change sides.
Edit: "In all earnest: Reservation holders got a few bones: the 1/16 RC roadster model, and other gifts."
No, certainly a lot of us didn't. I was P2840 then S354 and I never got anything.�
Dec 27, 2011
Eberhard Thats what i did as well, when i put down the reservation fee for the signature edition. I have taken the risk. I traveled to Milan Tesla store opening to talk to Elon Musk and JB Straubel about what we need in Europe. The same i did when i flew over to the Model S presentation on 1st October, just for 4 days to talk to Blankenship and JB Straubel again just to learn, taht they don't really care for potential and real customer from Europe. This is disappointing to. What shall i do with the second charger in the signature edition? Here, we don't have 80A single phase but 3x32A but no chance to connect at least 2 of those phases?
Its really frustrating -�
Dec 27, 2011
efusco Oddly, my position is somewhere in between. I don't think Tesla technically "owes" us anything. At the same time it seems like a great gesture of good will and appreciation to those of us who will, undoubtedly, become the foremost advocates for Tesla AND EVs in the next few years. Look, Toyota gave 3 years of service for free to the 1st generation prius buyers--in part for themselves to be sure they could keep close tabs on the vehicles, but also to give a bit of appreciation and a bit of breathing room for those early adopters.
We all took a bit of a risk putting down money on a reservation. Our risk doesn't end there by any means. If Tesla folds in 2 years we still have cars that will need repair and maintenence and we'll have to find 3rd parties to do that and/or do it ourselves. Toys in the mail are nice. The thing at the factory was cool for those of you who could attend, but it would have cost me a couple thousand dollars to get there. I still have insurance, transportation charges, perhaps an extended warranty to pay for, perhaps the battery replacement cost to consider purchasing, etc.
I don't think, in any way at all, that Tesla is being unfair to us...I just don't share that view at all. That said, some of these costs are darn high and are pretty unexpected--anything beyond with pain with black on black interior, or black with black on black is going to be at least $2250 more, that's a lot of money for some of hard working family men with kids folks. I'm just saying that Tesla would make us even more satisfied with them as a company and better advocates for them going forward by giving us some good will gestures as I suggested in the original post of this thread...or something along those lines.
Do they "owe it to us"--hell no. Would it be the magnanimous thing to do--absolutely. Would it be a good business decision--I believe so. I was an early Gen II Prius buyer and have, without a bit of doubt in my mind, been directly responsible for a score or more sales of Prii over the years, and likely many hundreds more indirectly that is our destiny as well with Tesla.�
Dec 27, 2011
ckessel I supposed that's mostly my view, that it would have been good to throw pre-production holders a thank you, but it wasn't strictly expected. It's really just the treatment with Sigs that upsets me. In addition to the Sig surcharge, the way they're doing options isn't good either:
Extra charger I won't ever use? Don't want that, wasted money.
No credit for downgrading to 19" tires.
No credit for picking black or white as the preferred color.
If Sigs were no more expensive, I would have said "eh, oh well", but I think the up-charge and the way certain options are handled is actually insulting and has fairly significantly damaged the way I view Tesla. Not enough to cancel, but I did down grade and I'm no longer talking up the company. I don't have nearly as much belief that Tesla will do right by customers in the future since their first step out the door with the Model S is to squeeze Sig holders in a very blatant manner.�
Dec 27, 2011
AnOutsider Whats the point of a plain black Sig with 19"?? The Sig where supposed to be "fully loaded" all the time AFAIR. I think you're beeing unreasonable here.�
Dec 27, 2011
Arnold Panz Whoa, I think that's overreacting a bit there. I don't feel Tesla has done any intentional harm here to feel that harshly. Your opinion may vary of course, but it seems a bit much.
As for the sig, as [email�protected] said, why have a sig if you're going for base settings anyway? In your case you're actually better off in the P queue. Only thing lost is some time.
*edited to clarify*�
Dec 27, 2011
loganss I'm about in the middle as well. My bigger concern is that, as a fan and supporter of Tesla who desperately wants the company to succeed, they shot themselves in the foot a bit with the Sig pricing (and possibly the 160 no fast-charger, but that's another story). I had introduced a friend to Tesla, he almost immediately put down a reservation for Sig. Yesterday, he sent me an e-mail to "talk him down off the ledge" because he was at the Porsche dealership ready to buy a Cayenne that day. He still loves the Model S, but feels really burned by the extra cost without any real important (to him) additions. This is exactly what I was afraid would happen when I saw the pricing -- only real "true believers" in Tesla/EVs would be willing to pay the Sig premium.
He also made the point that, like a lot of people who can afford to put down the $40k, he lives around and knows a lot of people who could afford this car, and would probably love it once they saw it. Sig owners would be like walking advertisements. Many of us are already, but having the car in a few months would obviously increase the promotion of the car, and at just the right market Tesla wants (professionals, entrepenuers, the idle rich etc.). Even if he ends up getting the car now (Sig or not), why put him in a mindset where he's sort of pissed at Tesla and resentful of having to pay extra for the Sig? I just think that the extra few million they're getting isn't worth the additional marketing/publicity/goodwill that they would have gotten in the long run by REALLY taking care of the Sig reservation holders. If they can still step up to the plate (with free service or something), then I hope they correct their error.�
Dec 27, 2011
efusco Maybe I'm missing something but when people gave their reservation money, did they sign some sort of agreement saying they are going to get all the accessories/features they are currently upset about? People putting in reservations before the car was finalized, or nearly finalized, were taking a huge risk in their investment with no guarantee that they'd get what they wanted. Seems the same as any other investment. Sometimes you get what you wanted and sometimes you don't. At least the Model S didn't make changes like the Volt concept to what it is now.
I like Tesla and all but I needed to let my money earn interest and save up more while the Model S was being finalized. The risk was too high for me. Due to my actions, I won't be able to get the car until 2013. That's ok with me.
If you're getting the Sig and you get extra features you don't want, you can sell some of them.
Edit: Also since the car hasn't come out yet, it's still possible that Tesla might do something special for their Sig reservation holder that would make the premium more than worth it.�
1/1/2015
guest That's not quite the point of my thread. Even so, to some degree the answer to your first sentence is "yes". Nowhere, prior to last week's list of options/prices, did anyone give a hint that the 40kW pack would not be capable of the previously promised 5.6 sec 0-60 time or that would be less capable of rapid charging. Those have been long time marketing tools used to solicit reservations. Certainly folks can drop their reservations and be out just the interest they would otherwise have made on the money, but that's not really the point. The point is that we took our gamble with out money and some of us expect a bit MORE than what was promised from Tesla, not less--and not to be taken advantage of as I think is happening to the Signature reservers...$40k over 3 years would produce significant interest if invested well--instead they have to pay $3500 more for essentially the same features as the non-sigs. I think Tesla could have used this situation to score HUGE points with reservations holders to both ultimate marketing and customer satisfaction advantage, instead they've got a bit of an image issue they now have to address somehow.�
Dec 27, 2011
ckessel I don't want the base settings, I never said I did. It's fine if you'd like to discuss merits of Tesla's Sig package, but don't throw up straw man statements I never made.
- What's wrong with wanting black? Why should I be paying a premium because I like black paint? [email�protected] even goes a step farther to denigrate it as "plain" black. WTF? What kind of bizarro world is this where Red is the only true color and all else are inferior?
- What's wrong with liking the 19" wheels? What if I want 19" aero wheels? Why is it unreasonable to want the aero wheels and NOT to be charged a premium for them?
If Tesla is going to allow a downgrade (like paint and wheels, which expressly provides that option) then it's pure greed by Tesla to keep the difference. Tesla is saying "Oh, you can downgrade to black, but we're keeping your cash." I really take offense to that. I'll be really, really interested if someone can legitimately argue why Tesla should keep the cash on those.
I'm not bothered by items that are less subjective, such as the tech package or sound package that you'll use and can appreciate even if you wouldn't normally pay for them. I may actively dislike red paint or the 21" wheels as those are fairly subjective items, but it'd be hard to say anyone would actively dislike better sound, better headlights, etc.
Their Sig optional vs. mandatory is also screwy. A mandatory 2nd charger that lots of folks like myself will never use, but it costs $1500 for the pano roof. The pano roof seems much more in the class of options like the tech package and sound system, things everyone can use, far more than the 2nd charger.
No, the agreement says nothing about how it's optioned. And, other than the 21" rims, how would you sell any of the mandatory options?
There are 1000 Sigs (well, more counting outside the US). That's a very tiny amount of the full long term production run of the car. Taking any liberties with the first 1000 customers in the slightest seems like a horrible PR move with a cost in ill-will and bad word of mouth that should be factored against the extra $ to be made on surcharging the Sigs.�
Dec 27, 2011
efusco Was just wondering how much interest Tesla has enjoyed on my money over the past 3 years. If I was getting 10% on my $5000 investment it would have been worth $1655 more now. For those who put down $40,000 right way for a Signature model, that same 10% would have yeilded them $13,240 in interest earnings. This wasn't JUST a deposit, it was a loan. Hence why the early reservers might be worthy of some hearty thanks from Tesla. FWIW, if those same signature reservers have to wait another year for their car b/c they've downgraded to a non-sig the intrest lost will increase to $18,564. And since it will be almost another year before us lowly non-Sig folks get ours even on $5000 that's $2320 in interest lost over the 4 years.
Is choice of paint and interior color for "free" REALLY too much to ask in light of those numbers?�
Dec 27, 2011
ckessel If you've been getting 10% on your investments, you sir are a wizard�
Dec 27, 2011
efusco :smile:�
Dec 27, 2011
AnOutsider That settles it. He's clearly a wizard.
I think money would have been well-spent in Tesla stock to be honest, but at the same time, I'm OK with my money going to keep them afloat. I do agree that us early people should get SOMETHING, but with that said, I DID end up getting the RC Roadster and the swag box (as well as a trip to the Factory), so it's alright in the end....
(don't get me wrong, I'd love it if we got some more bonuses being sig people -- even if that meant free options or throwing in the pano roof or something)�
Dec 27, 2011
Mycroft They can't throw in the pano roof because too many people don't want it for various reasons.
I think the best we could hope for would be some "free" years of maintenance or a free warranty extension. I wouldn't turn up my nose to either.�
Dec 27, 2011
Adm Free maintenance for Sig owners might work as it pushes the costs into the future (at least a year away) and it won't affect cash flow in times where they really need it. That said, free maintenance will be hard if they go belly up.
Also, the fact that some reservation holders assume that venture capital always pays (big) is a misconception. Many don't make it beyond a year, some struggle for years to stay afloat and just a hand full explode and result a big pay day for venture capitalists. I assume the real VC's at Tesla already already cashed out by now as they should have been able to negotiate good conditions, for us mere mortals, as $40k and $5k is small change for these guys, will have to wait and see. Sig owners may get something, I expect nothing for plebs like myself. Well maybe if they have 20k reservations (S and X) by mid next year.�
Dec 27, 2011
richkae I am also disappointed by the Signature. I am considering downgrading to a regular production 85 kW car with less options than the signature.
I was prepared to pay full price for options I did not really want and let Tesla have that profit, but I'm disappointed about overpaying for them.
I'm also disappointed with the limited color choices.
So as I see it, the Signature Model has 2 benefits: 1) skip to the front of the line, 2) you get red.
For that you get to: 1) let Tesla hold $35000 for about an extra year or so, 2) pay $3500 extra
IMO Signature Model S should have that several of these features at the current price point:
1) Upgrade to Sport for only $6500
2) 5 years of data plan included
3) 5 years maintenance included
4) Access to all the exterior colors�
Dec 27, 2011
AnOutsider Right, but many people don't want the 21" wheels too, but they are standard. You should be able to downgrade if you wish, but why not just throw it in as standard? Same with the jump seats and the charger IMO. In the grand scheme of things, their actual cost on those items are likely very low compared to the MSRP, and it would go a long way to keeping their sig people happy I think. Just throwing it out there.
I agree, some sort of premium care (free ranger visits up to x miles etc) would also go a long way.�
Dec 27, 2011
Arnold Panz richkae, I agree with all of your points, except for the colors. The reason we (Sigs) don't have access to all colors is that it slows down production to change colors each time a car comes down the line, so to start with only 4 color choices makes the production move a bit faster. This is extremely important at the onset because I'm sure they're expecting a million (hopefully minor) issues to crop up as they get into production, and having to deal with multiple different colors is one less headache they need to deal with. I'm totally OK with that because it's very logical, and something that they have been discussing for months to Sig owners, and was highlighted at the owners event in October.�
Dec 27, 2011
Weustis I'm new to the forum and a relatively new reservation holder (March 2011) and apologize if this post is a non-sequitur, but did they stop sending out the Roadster model cars and other schwag? I did get an invite to the factory event, but that's about all I've seen other than the occasional email. Just curious.
As far as the pricing, I am a bit disappointed, but understand that they need to turn a profit at some point. I agree with Volker's post that they could have done a better job of pitching what is included. I was hoping i wouldn't have to drop $100K for a Signature. But, that's the risk you take in this situation.�
Dec 27, 2011
Todd Burch Schwag went out a good while ago....most of it a year ago...so if you're a new reservation holder you won't get it.�
Dec 27, 2011
ckessel I think they were a 2011 new year's present as I remember a bunch of folks getting swag at the start of 2011. I reserved the first week or so of 2011 and just missed it. Given I was P2860, it's fair to say the majority of reservation holders haven't gotten any swag. It was a nice thing for Tesla to do and I don't feel jilted on that account. I don't feel upset on the Tesla pricing either in general, just the way Sigs are handled.�
Dec 27, 2011
Robert.Boston Not that it's a relevant metric, but the Dow Jones Index is up 22.2% since I put in my deposit, or 11.1% on an annualized basis. So, earning 10% would have meant that I underperformed the market. :wink:�
Dec 27, 2011
Norbert Maybe Signature holders will get to test drive sooner than others, and/or a special (earlier) launch event...�
Dec 27, 2011
brianman Not all of us.�
Dec 27, 2011
onlinespending If our down-payments only guaranteed our spot in line, as they should, then I would actually be OK with this. The reward for taking the risk and putting down money in the company was simply the guarantee that you would get your Model S before anyone else putting down money after you. That seems only fair; first come, first serve. Unfortunately Tesla really screwed the pooch by not even making good on the reservation order by fragmenting things by battery pack size. When I put my money down nearly 2 years ago this was certainly not the case. They've changed the rules in the middle of the game, and now someone can walk in today and quite possibly get a car long before me despite being over 4000 spots behind me in line. I understand this may make sense financially (selling the more expensive, higher margin models first), but then again it would also make sense financially for Apple to allow those wishing to buy the 64GB version of their iPhone to cut in line on launch day. Clearly this is not the case and would reflect poorly on Apple. Yet how is it that Tesla gets to do this, yet nobody seems bothered by it? The logical explanation is that these unfair rule changes actually benefit more people than it does hurt others. If you intend to purchase a 85 kWh Model S, whether you put your reservation in 2 years ago or today, you stand to gain from being given priority.
By changing the rules mid-game to benefit its bottom line, it's clear this company is struggling financially (something we already know) and needs cash ASAP. But in the process, are they not tarnishing their integrity? Those that do not see such actions for what they are; ones that are best for the company's bottom line and not necessarily in the best interest of its customers are either very naive or have too strong an emotional attachment to a car they haven't even driven in yet to think rationally.�
Dec 27, 2011
Jkam Not to jump all over you, but I think Sig holders expect to get the test drive first and they should since they should get their cars first. So I don't understand how getting a test drive sooner than others is really a perk? I think it is more of an expectation. And to be honest if Tesla handles it any other way, the criticism from Sig holders will be even louder.
A launch event doesn't sound too appealing either. Theoretically there could be 1,000 (+ guests) in attendance. As a Sig holder, I don't want to stand in line for a two minute test drive. I would prefer to have a more intimate and longer test drive. To be honest, everyone, Sig or general production holders, deserve more than just a token test drive. Everyone is willing to spend at least $50k on a car and should have the opportunity to test drive the car for a decent amount of time.�
Dec 27, 2011
brianman I'll bite. Straying from the "default Sig" package combination might have some impact on the production efficiency -- having to adjust the settings on the machinery, etc.
That said, they could have gone a different route. They could have said that "unadjusted" Signatures get produced before any "adjusted" ones. They likely avoided considering that approach because of the heat they're already getting about the 300 / 230 / 160 bucketing.�
Dec 27, 2011
Norbert Of course, I see the test drive and the launch event as two different things.�
Dec 27, 2011
Norbert With "sooner", I don't just mean "first". I could even imagine an additional test drive, at an earlier time, in final production candidates, for example. Some people came from Europe just for the Fremont event, so I'd think that would be worth something. That is the kind of thing I might expect as a sig holder, and to a smaller degree as a reservation holder. I see the $5K loan I'm giving Tesla as a donation/support of a good cause, not as some kind of guarantee that I will get a deal that I will consider advantageous. I always expected the possibility that in the end, I might decide not to buy (or buy a Bluestar later), and that in that case I would simply get my money back and no other reward. BTW, I think Fremont event was quite elaborate and might have incurred some noticeable cost. It was already more than I would otherwise expect "in return" for something called a reservation.�
Dec 27, 2011
Norbert Huh? You must have skipped a few messages in this forum, and a lack of knowledge of what Tesla is about.�
Dec 27, 2011
onlinespending Did you not read my entire message? They made a decision not to strictly adhere to the reservation order, something that was changed after more than a couple thousand people made reservations, for purely financial reasons. Obviously they had to know this wouldn't be a popular decision, but they were looking out for their bottom line. I can't say I entirely blame them if they are in desperate need of cash, but it's still an unfortunate thing that isn't exactly the most honorable thing to do (essentially to renig on the reservation order).
I don't think Tesla is some evil, unethical company. But I'm realistic and know that they are after all a company still struggling to survive and need to make money. This often means that they are going to make a few unpopular decisions along the way and may upset some of their loyal customers. Do you mind sharing with me what "Tesla is about"? I think you'd be a bit delusional if you think they're somehow above looking out for their own financial interests, which is merely what I was trying to state. Tesla is not your friend. They are trying to run a profitable business, and you are simply reservation holder #4717 to them.�
Dec 27, 2011
Norbert I can already tell it won't get any better... let's continue this after the holidays...�
Dec 27, 2011
vfx The early buyers of the 1.0-1.5 Roadsters got a longer warranty than the 2.0 buyers. (48 VS 36 months) One could argue that that particular early adopter perk has already been used by the really early adopters.�
Dec 28, 2011
gg_got_a_tesla It might be for financial reasons too but, might have something to do with optimizing the production line, maybe?! It'd probably be easier to bunch some of the 85 kWh pack orders together, produce them, then switch to 65 kWh and so on.�
Dec 28, 2011
onlinespending you're right. it is easier, and therefore less expensive to batch them like they are.�
Dec 28, 2011
Cobos It is obvious it has to do with optimizing the production line, but that must have been pretty obvious for anyone slightly knowledgeable about production lines at Tesla. So the customer-friendly solution would be to go out very early and say queue number is less important than what pack size you choose. Now this came after many customers had their reservation down for almost 2 years.
Is doing it this way more efficient for the bottom line at Tesla - surely. Is this the new customer focused car manufacturer Tesla claim they are - not so sure. Have they choosen several times to downprioritize the 40kW customers - yes. The only really new thing is they managed to do this ALSO to the sig customers.
So the original post is pretty good, where is the love for the 40kW customers?
Cobos�
Dec 28, 2011
Robert.Boston It seems likely that the "batching" of the General Production cars won't disturb the queue order extremely -- certainly not the "4000" figure tossed out earlier. Production in 2011 is expected to be about 5,000 cars, of which 1,200 will be US and Canadian Signatures. Based on earlier polling, 59% of "decided" reservation holders plan on getting the 85 kWh pack, 23% the 60kWh, and 18% the 40kWh.
Let's run through a scenario; these are all my assumptions, based on fragmentary information:
Let's assume that Tesla ramps up to the 20,000 cars/year rate, hitting that rate in January and ramping at a constant growth rate from July. July production would be 452 cars, August 562, and so on up to 1,667 in January.
If all 1,200 US and Canadian Sigs are sold, they won't get all the Sigs out the door until early September. Tesla now shifts to 85kWh orders for the rest of September and through October. Tesla will have made 2,582 cars by the end of October: 1,200 Sigs and 1,382 85kWh packs. If the queue is composed as per the poll numbers, they'll have gotten through to reservation #2,351, with a backlog of 538 60kWh packs and 431 40kWh packs.
In November, Tesla makes 1,080 cars: the whole of the 60kWh backlog, plus all the 85kWh and 60kWh packs up through queue #3,673. In December, Tesla makes 1,342 cars, working up the queue to #5,316. The backlog of 40kWh packs ends the year at 974. These are all produced in January 2013. Thereafter, reservations are processed sequentially.
Some observations from this example:
- All reservations that have been taken in Q3 and Q4 2011 will likely be processed in the order received, in early 2013.
- The backlog of 60kWh and 40kWh packs can be met entirely in the first month when those packs enter production.
- It's entirely possible that reservation holder P#5000 will take delivery before P#1, if P#1 wants a 40kWh pack.
�
Dec 28, 2011
Dennisf I think this is a reasonable scenario. One thing is missing in it: The Sig holders in the rest of the world. When will these car be produced? After the US sigs?�
Dec 28, 2011
Norbert
The explanation which makes the most sense to me, is that they increased the priority of being able to make the necessary investments for Bluestar (and other upcoming cars) as soon as possible. They've been talking about 2015/2016, however with recent indications that they will not use additional outside funding, that might be a really difficult schedule, unless they can turn sales into profits *soon*.
Batching up will probably not only reduce costs, but also increase production rates. So altogether, they can deliver more cars sooner. The net effect is that they can go forward faster with Bluestar and other projects, to get to the point where they can deliver more, and more affordable (mass-market) long range EVs, sooner.�
Dec 28, 2011
Cobos Yes and I DO understand Tesla's need to increase profits and margins both for now and for the Bluestar. The fact that the X is coming before the Bluestar is a sure sign of just that. I also understand that customer service levels you can maintain for about 2000 customers for a $100 000+ car has to be different with 20k-40k customers each year. At the same time there is a reason people are willing to buy a BMW instead of a Toyota and still feel good about their purchase. The "value" of the BMW is obviously higher and it's not just related to brand awareness and extra status. Tesla has to make sure they are not cutting corners so much and so fast as well as turning off too many customers that they end up trying to sell a Toyota product at BMW prices.
As a 40kW buyer it's important Tesla manages to lure me into a 60kW pack instead of trying to force me into a 60kW pack with constantly turning down the 40kW pack customer.
Cobos�
Dec 28, 2011
Norbert But that's an important point, since the Bluestar is an important goal, as well as any other additional models within each platform, as these are means to reach a larger customer base, to serve the needs of more customers, and thereby to ensure/give momentum to the process of electric cars becoming the new standard. Otherwise, what's the point?
The X comes first because it will be able to use the then-existing manufacturing line, being built on the same platform. They will need to make optimal use of the investments already made and the facilities already built. While the battery tech also needs to improve before Bluestar, they will need to build up momentum until then. At the same time they will start to build (or just start saving money for) the mass-manufacturing facilities etc. It seems Tesla wants/needs to plan very tight, which implies rearranging a few things so they fit together better.
I think they are doing everything possible to make Model S an excellent product, and to ensure the quality of everything including the 40 kWh pack. Hence the warranty. In this sense, they are not trying to rush things or cutting corners, as far as we know.
And I'd expect that they will pretty much honor the reservation sequence once production starts for each pack, as well as the sequence within each pack, except they may continue to use certain batch sizes. It's just that the new line won't immediately have the flexibility, things like that. I see it more as a part of the ramping-up process.
BTW, personally I might even prefer spring 2013 to fall 2012, due to how I want to time things, so I might have the opposite "problem" from any reordering...�
Dec 28, 2011
EVNow This is an important point. Otherwise - one would expect signature owners to pay more to get the limited edition cars and early too.�
Dec 28, 2011
EVNow I think 40 to 60kWh is too big a jump (20%) that most would not likely make willingly. I expect as many to drop out as there are who are upgrading. Ofcourse people who aren't in an area where they expect a lot of quick chargers would probably continue with the base model.�
Dec 29, 2011
neroden No, I didn't get any of those. Where they MAILED to truly early reservation holders, or were these "only if you show up" gifts?
It's half a continent away -- I would have to have burnt money to go.
They should treat the people who lent them $40K better than people who lent them $5K.
I have had confirmation that people who downgrade from Sig to Standard will be slotted into place approximately where they would have been if they had made standard reservations at the same time, so at least they aren't actually treating the Sig reservation holders *worse* than the Standard reservation holders. So that's something. But it's not much.
Oh, y'know, I thought I might get a nicer car for lending $35K more? Or perhaps an equally nice car, slightly cheaper? Instead, I find I have the opportunity to buy pretty nearly the same car, plus options I don't want (and frankly I want all the options except the 21" wheels) -- for MORE?
That's just rude behavior. C'mon, Tesla, show the Sig reservation holders something which is worth the premium.
Ordinary reservation holders are, well, getting a car rather than having to wait a full year. But Sig reservation holders are getting what?...�
Dec 29, 2011
neroden Actually, this -- failure to adhere to the "spot in line" principle -- is, in a sense, of the problem with the Sig reservations as well. It was understood that we were reserving in order to "jump the queue". But the Signature has *fewer* options than the standard production and is *more* expensive. So if you wanted a particular configuration, even what you consider a fully loaded one (19" aero wheels!), you discover that you didn't really "jump the queue" by reserving a Sig. In order to keep your "queue jump" you must now pay an additional $3000 plus whatever the unwanted options (21" wheels) cost, over and above your "fully loaded".
Reputation matters. The move to delay the 40kWh battery owners was controversial and questionable, but justified partly by the battery manufacturing process. The three errors with the pricing, however, cannot be justified this way. At the moment, the Sig simply seems to be price-gouging (unless they announce extra benefits of it). The Performance actual price is fine, but the way it is advertised is simply deceptive and beneath a company of integrity. And there is no reason to completely exclude 40kWh from the Superchargers, even if their access has to be limited -- and excluding them will cause massive range anxiety.�
Dec 29, 2011
efusco In reply to VolkerP and others:
I'm not asking Tesla to just give me thousands of dollars of items at their cost. I'm asking for thousands of what they want to charge--and there is a big difference b/w those two. Let's start with the paint--metallic pain and even pearl paints don't COST much, if any, more to the manufacturer, it's just a way to upcharge in an effort to increase profits ( Metallic Paint or Metallic Pain in the wallet? | Saab Cars Trollhattan Saab ). While other things like the leather and an extra charger and the tech items do have some finite cost to Tesla, I think we can agree that they are not selling them for anywhere near cost. I suspect at least 30% profit margin--and wouldn't be surprise if it's even more than that.
So the 'bone' I'm asking for isn't that much--a nice reward for my trusting them with my money and for being the best form of advertising they can ask for.�
Dec 29, 2011
neroden I can see it for paint (paint is finicky), but for WHEELS? You bolt the things on at the very end of production!
Eh, being delayed to the end of the first 1000 wouldn't be so bad! Better than being charged $3K for *nothing*.�
Dec 29, 2011
neroden Given my location >230 miles away from the nearest Tesla Service Center, that would certainly go some way. Free ranger visits would be worth $230 per visit, which could add up *FAST*. Of course, the value of that would vary according to people's location.
I think a refund for wheel "downgrades" would be the most advisable thing, as the Sig reservers who don't want the 21" wheels are genuinely getting a bad deal (by at least $2000) -- and "put on a different set of wheels" is *definitely* not disruptive to the factory operations. I mean, we can start making deals among ourselves to sell the 21" wheels to Production reservers while ordering extra sets of 19" wheels and , but surely Tesla can do better than forcing us to do byzantine things like that.�
Dec 29, 2011
KBF @neroden and efusco. I do see your points, and a while back in another similar thread I mentioned that the best thing for us to do is email Tesla customer service and politely mention these things. In my email I mentioned some ideas (like better warranty and even free Ranger visits - precisely things that cost them further down the road, once they're producing more cars); I received a very polite reply, with answers to most of my questions - there are some things not set in stone yet, so it is still a good time to provide them with feedback. It can't hurt, anyway. I'm quite sure the customer feedback regarding the pano roof led it to being an option on the Sig - so I know they have been listening to those that communicate with them directly.
At the same time, I don't feel like I particularly deserve to complain, since I was a lucky Canadian who reserved early, when our only option was a $5000 deposit, and I'll only have to pay the extra $35k when I choose my options. I would have put 40 down right away if they'd let me, and so it turned out quite alright for me that I couldn't.�
Dec 29, 2011
neroden This does not explain it.
By blatantly overcharging for the Signature, they (1) lose Signature reservations (by the time enough people drop back to standard production it might not even be fully sold out when the time comes to stop making them), and (2) create bad press and irritated early adopters, which loses additional reservations. Bad move.
This isn't batching.
I hope Tesla "restores our faith" by offering additional Signature features (service program enhancements have been suggested, and would totally work) which are worth the $3000 premium, and by cutting the price when we choose not to get "features" like the 21" wheels (as ckessel says, that's just taking our money and giving us nothing). Tesla's kind of developing a "shady car company" reputation now, and that *can't* be good.�
Dec 29, 2011
neroden Have emailed repeatedly, keep getting "out of office" replies so far. Not good at being polite (though I am never profane).
I did get one useful piece of information which I have shared (if you downgrade they will attempt to put you where you would have been in the queue had you ordered a Production model on the same date).�
Dec 29, 2011
KBF The customer rep alluded to the fact that the current Sig differences we know about may not be the only perks (badging, spot in line, paint, leather) - but didn't make any promises. I found it interesting that he was also very clear in stating that if I wanted to downgrade I could gladly do so - no high-pressure up-selling. I wouldn't mind them trying to convince me to buy a performance�
Dec 29, 2011
KBF I've always gotten a quick reply, although I've been emailing the generic "[email�protected]" and have had different people reply (since it's usually been a few months between inquiries).�
Dec 29, 2011
brianman That's actually a pretty good point. Even when mailing your representative directly, it might be worth CC'ing the main email address in case your representative happens to be on vacation or somesuch.�
Dec 29, 2011
tnawara In the wake of the sad news of the passing of Saab (Saab bankruptcy a | The Detroit News | detroitnews.com), maybe they should have been charging more for their metallic paint option...�
Dec 29, 2011
Beavis If I weren't going to get a fully loaded car then I would simply not be getting a Sig. So if you don't want the 21s or you don't want red, why even reserve a Sig? The Sig benefit, jumping the line to get a fully loaded, limited edition car, is what TM promised and is delivering. Your extra cash deposit bought that and only that. With respect to the $3,550 up charge, that is what I would expect with a limited edition car.�
Dec 29, 2011
Norbert I was responding to the 40 kWh pack discussion, not the signature (probably should have removed the second sentence from my quote).
I don't think the new pricing/options page is in any way meant to be a complete communication, but only the first piece of a larger set of website updates. For example I expect the upcoming design studio changes to contain additional information (of course). Things may get a bit hectic as Tesla is getting closer to mid-2012, and we'll probably need to get used to it. Many are probably in vacation right now. We just learned this morning (I think) that for signatures, the dash and doors would be have leather as well. There may be other perks, or not, and if there are more, Tesla might not announce them for while, or even not decide on that yet. If you ask me, I think Tesla might see the signature more as a "limited edition" package with collectors value (which will probably apply the most to the red multi-coat paint), and are encouraged to do so by the quickly growing list of reservations and the responses to test drives etc. I expect it will be quite a media spectacle as we come closer to the actual launch.�
Dec 29, 2011
Norbert I wrote my message before reading yours, in case you are wondering...�
Dec 30, 2011
neroden Oh, OK then.�
Dec 30, 2011
neroden Remember, we reserved before we knew what the options were.
"Red" is not generally considered part of "fully loaded", as red is a matter of taste (and many people prefer not to get the "cop attracting color"). If it were part of "fully loaded", I would hope "blue" would be too, but apparently it's not.
The 21" wheels are demonstrably inferior in treadwear and poor-road-condition handling to the 19" wheels (and especially inferior to the 19" aerodynamic wheels, so arguably the car is fully loaded only *without* them and with the 19" aeros.
Honestly, I'm getting everything else except the pano roof. For me, it's a $5550 premium for (a) extra leather and (b) early delivery and (c) fewer paint and interior options. It seems awfully steep for that; as I said elsewhere, I'm going to price custom upholstery work, as it may well be cheaper.�
Dec 30, 2011
Beavis My guess is that, like some others, you primarily reserved a Signature in order to get the car earlier rather than for limited edition "collector's" appeal.�
Dec 30, 2011
ckessel Given his Sig #, whether he made a Sig or P reservation wouldn't have made much difference in delivery time.�
Dec 31, 2011
Warrenbonz I verified with my Roadster salesman a few days ago that ranger visits for warranty work on the model S will be free of charge. If my memory serves non warranty work is charged at 1$ a mile Both ways resulting in a $460 charge per non warranty visit for a 230 mile ranger journey.�
Dec 31, 2011
Larry Chanin Hi Warren,
Yes, that's what I heard as well. I'm guessing that non-battery warranties, which haven't been announced yet, will be at least 5 years or 50,000 miles. If these fees are waived when under warranty anyway, I think the Signature folks would get a bit impatient waiting so long to see this benefit. Waiving the $600 check-up fees for a few years might be something that Tesla could do to reward Signature reservation holders.
One thing I wasn't sure about is for the routine annual check-ups whether Tesla would waive the ranger fees while under warranty. Do you happen to know what the current ranger fee policy is on routine check-ups with regard to Roadsters?
Larry�
Dec 31, 2011
dsm363 The annual service fee isn't waived under warranty. It's about $600.�
Dec 31, 2011
Mycroft Plus the mileage fee. I think that's reasonable.�
Dec 31, 2011
Warrenbonz Has a $600 annual service fee for Model S been announced or speculation based on Roadster? Either way I think if Tesla announced that annual service was included during the warranty period for Signature Series that it would satisfy most of us disappointed/upset with the premium being charged for Signature. I do believe Tesla will ultimately offer a credit for wheel downgrades on the Signature; it seems so unfair otherwise I just don't see them sticking to the current policy regarding wheels. Personally, at the moment I am leaning towards switching from Signature to regular 85kw or maybe sport. I need to see and feel the cars in person before I make a final decision.
Regarding the ranger fee for annual service, I would try to time the annual service to coincide with a visit for a warranty item if possible. If there aren't any warranty items to address than I guess I would could consider myself lucky�
Dec 31, 2011
Larry Chanin Hi,
Thanks for the response. I know the check-up fee is about $600. My question is are the ranger fees waived while under warranty.
Larry�
Dec 31, 2011
WhiteKnight If a Model S owner has to pay $600 per year for an annual check up then this eliminates all the perceived maintenance benefits of an electric vehicle. That money would buy a lot of oil changes, filter replacements, etc.�
Dec 31, 2011
Mycroft The maintenance on my Mercedes is at least $1,000 per year. So it really depends on what kind of car you're moving from.�
Dec 31, 2011
ckessel Depends on how you define maintenance as well. Oil changes are cheap, but clutches, timing belts, spark plugs/cables, fuel injector cleaning, mufflers, catalytic converters, alternators, starters, water pumps, normal car batteries, AC recharge, radiator flushing, transmission fluids and so forth can really add up. They're all mostly every few years and not all will require attention, but a good chunk of those will crop up within 60k miles or so.�
Dec 31, 2011
smorgasbord BMW charges nothing for all regular maintenance AND many wear items (brakes, wipers, belts) during the first 4 years/50,000 miles. So, rack up $2400 in additional maintenance costs for the Model S versus BMW.�
Dec 31, 2011
AnOutsider Guess we have to see what the warranty covers�
Dec 31, 2011
Larry Chanin Ok, we know that the Roadster annual check up is about $600. I repeat, my question is are the ranger fees for Roadsters currently waived while under warranty?
Thanks.
Larry�
Dec 31, 2011
dsm363 You pay $600 + $1 per mile with I think a minimum of $100 (if you live a 10 miles away they still charge $100 if you don't want to bother to drive it to the service center). The ranger fee is not waived for the annual visit. I guess they might waive the ranger fee if they also were doing some warranty work during the same visit though.
They haven't announced what their plans on with ranger fees although they do seem to indicate that rangers will still be available for Model S customers.�
Dec 31, 2011
3lectronica Tesla does not charge the ranger fee for vehicles that need warranty work.�
Dec 31, 2011
Doug_G Ranger fees are charged for the annual checkup.
I have yet to be charged for Ranger fees for a warranty repair... that said I've not seen that policy in writing anywhere.�
Jan 3, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Yeah, sounds wonky if Tesla claims to have a lower cost of ownership over the years - yeah, I get the gas vs electricity cost savings but still...
Would not getting the annual checkup void the warranty?! Why do I need to fork out $600 per year for the 4 (or 5) years under warranty if I don't see any problems with the car?!�
Jan 3, 2012
dsm363 I believe not getting the annual checkup would void the warranty. That's how it is with most cars but would need to look at the Roadster's actual warranty. I only drove my Jetta a little over 3,000 miles last year so had 7,000 miles to go on my 20,000 mile checkup. I happened to call the dealership and they said I hadn't been there in 15 months and needed to come in for my 20,000 mile (2 year) checkup or the warranty would be void. Someone else may know about the warranty for the Roadster but I'd imagine the Model S will be similar.�
Jan 3, 2012
AnOutsider It makes sense though. We have a warranty/insurance on my wife's ring, and in order to keep it current she has to get it checked out every 6 months or so. Better to keep up with the maintenance and fix small things before they become big, costly things. They also want to make sure you're properly maintaining during the warranty period.�
Jan 3, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Agree with both of you. Was essentially getting at why a diagnostic check (that'd probably be mostly electronic and automated) should cost $600! That'd probably pay for several weeks worth of driving! A 90K mile heavy duty service on a gas car would cost much less. And, it's not as if we would have a choice as to where to get this checkup done :frown:�
Jan 3, 2012
strider It's actually illegal under the Magnussen-Moss Act for a company to require you to pay them for maintenance work and void your warranty if you don't. If they provide the service for free then they can void your warranty or not doing so (ie BMW). I've never used a dealer for maintenance work on any of my ICE cars yet if something breaks under warranty I bring it in and they fix it.
Roadster owners have thusfar been willing to pay the $700/year for the check-up but future buyers may not be willing to do so. It'll be interesting to watch this develop.�
Jan 12, 2012
neroden I probably wouldn't be willing to, not *every year*. If the car's working perfectly, why pay $1046 (yep, that would be the ranger costs plus $600) to have it looked at? Given the mileage I expect to accumulate (5000 miles a year), it seems like overkill. It would be different if anything started actually acting up.�
Jan 13, 2012
VolkerP You would pay 20cent per mile, eating up a fair bit of the difference in energy costs between EV and ICE.�
Jan 13, 2012
Robert.Boston I would venture that the Model S's annual maintenance costs will be lower than the Roadster's, not because the Model S is simpler (though it may be), but because there will be more of them over which Tesla can spread fixed costs of its Ranger team--not only personnel costs, but also parts inventories, rent, etc.�
Jan 13, 2012
Jaff Possibly Robert, but doesn't the Model S have far more ancillary systems (than the Roadster) that might go awry and require Ranger visits?...I agree that there should be better economy of scale on the annual checkup.�
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