Mar 26, 2009
TEG Is it official? They didn't say much about it, but I saw this reported about the Model S:
2012 Tesla Model S revealed! (updated)
�
Mar 27, 2009
DDB
Good catch TEG. You would think that would be something worth mentioning yesterday...would you not? If it's true, that's a bump to both platforms.�
Mar 27, 2009
vfx Elon did say this in his Model S introduction speech. Though it sounded like, Change the battery out faster that changing a gas tank".
Kinda weird but there were a lot of people talking around me...�
Mar 27, 2009
SByer Marginalize your compliment
If Tesla isn't going into battery swapping themselves, it's in their best interest to stay battery-swapping-station agnostic, if possible. Foster the competition. Your ICE car can fuel from any brand station, your BEV should be able to swap at any swap station.
Yes, there's the little minor detail of standards and things, but if the Tesla design is reasonable, first mover has a lot of power to set the standard.�
Mar 27, 2009
TEG The article I quoted said (or implied?) that it would be compatible. Is that wishful thinking from the reporter? I think there is a pattern of "leading" comments being made that allow reporters to jump to conclusions, sometimes wrong. I wish they would try harder to be "matter of fact", not "suggestive".�
Mar 27, 2009
TEG This article is much less certain:
"Tesla Model S Unveiled: A Great Concept, but Now the Wait Begins" Green Car Advisor
So is it an advertised, standardized feature, or just a future wishlist item? Annoying these vague details reported different ways.�
Mar 28, 2009
TEG (blank space placeholder)�
Mar 29, 2009
Albern Regardless of whether the Model S pack is swappable or not I think it's in Tesla's best interest carry this feature through to production. While I'm not a fan of a battery swapping infrastructure to make EVs "more" viable having the ability to quickly replace battery packs would be the best way to keep service costs down and opens many doors for future pack improvements.
From the information we've received so far this past week, if the goal is to charge $5,000 for a replacement pack Model S better have the ability to drop out those batteries ASAP.
Does anyone remember how long it takes to install the entire drivetrain plus batteries in a Roadster?�
Mar 29, 2009
TEG I think they said something like 8 hours for the Roadster.
Also, I wonder if that $5000 pack quote is correct.
I saw another quote <$500 per kWh. That would be about $20K for the base pack.�
Mar 29, 2009
EVnut Yeah, I think we can safely drop the idea of a $5000 pack. They will have to invent some magic mo-jo to pull that off. I think it is just a typo that has propagated. If we can have 100+ mile Li-ion packs for $5000, then the whole game changes.... like NOW.�
Apr 2, 2009
iknowdoyou Battery Swap
Hi folks,
I have a rather generic question on the battery swap theory. Will this five minute swap be a case of owners being able to purchase a second battery pack that's kept in their garage, or would it be more like an owner would need to drop by their local Tesla store and have it done there?
If it's the former, how would we charge the secondary pack, and if it's the latter, how often would that be needed for the average owner? Is this just to make battery maintenance more palatable to a would-be purchaser?
Thanks!
Ryan�
Apr 5, 2009
doug I'm just getting to some of these threads from last weekend.
Here's a four minute clip of my interview with Franz that should be relevant. If you're really impatient, skip in one minute. (I posted a full 22 minute version earlier, including questions from some print journos.)
He may be a bit out of his element, but Franz mentions discussions with Better Place as well as Tesla quick charge stations between cities.�
Apr 6, 2009
DDB Tesla would need to partner with someone with a major distribution network if it's the latter--how about McDonald's or another food chain?The PBP model makes the most sense rather than taking them on...although you have to admit, they are ahead of the game with wheels on the road now (none of which are swappable, admitably).
�
Apr 23, 2009
graham Interesting nugget towards the end of this article:
Senators test-drive green cars on Capitol Hill - CNN.com
�
Apr 23, 2009
Tdave Does that imply that the 300 mile pack would cost $35k more than the 160 mile pack? That can't be right.�
Apr 23, 2009
Kevin Harney No it implies that they might sell the car with no battery included !!! Just a leasing option perhaps.�
Apr 24, 2009
ozman I read that earlier too and got the same impression. I honestly do think that is absolutely what they are aiming for. I read/heard/watched somewhere (sorry can't remember where) Elon saying it was equivelent to a $35,000 gas guzzler and that you could have the option to "feel the benefit straight away by leasing". That could mean leasing entire cars, but I also think it is a strong hint at leasing batteries also.
Although I wasn't a fan of the battery pack swap thing when I first heard it, I do think it is a good idea, and it may well prove to be Tesla's most popular version. I imagine if they get the pricing right A LOT of people would be interested in renting the battery rather then paying for it up front (even without the swap station infrastructure). If that is the case, then it makes the infrastructure viable. Good move all round!
$35k Model S, and battery pack lease plans + cost of electricity that works out no more then what you'd spend on petrol anyway? I think it is coming�
Apr 24, 2009
roblab I personally don't get it.
If I treat my battery pack gently, I might get twice the life. If someone else runs his pack to zero every other day, and charges it full with a quick charge every time, both known to lower a pack's life, all he has to do is go to the swap station??? They'd better have a way of telling what condition the battery is in and CHARGE for the deterioration somehow. And NO way am I going to want to swap my cared-for battery with anyone's throw away swap. If it's worth $35K why are we rewarding someone who's trashing it??
Rob�
Apr 24, 2009
graham I wonder if Tesla can keep track of a batteries use and charge more for people who abuse it to discourage abuse. Certainly the car will know how many quick charges, how many full discharges etc.
The equivalent of a rental car where you sign an agreement saying: I will pay for all damages, and pay extra for driving over 100 miles in it.�
Apr 24, 2009
WarpedOne roblab:
That's because "such swappable battery packs" idea just stinks.
It sounds cool until you start to think about it and read a thing or two about batteries.
Exactly. Thats why generic battery swap stations just won't work in practice.
But swappable batteries are useful nevertheless. You buy an electric car and pay for the battery or lease one or both of them. Both, car and battery are yours but you can still go and rent a bigger battery when you think you're going to need it and swap it with yours. Your battery is stored at the battery-rent center and is waiting for you to return the rented one.�
Apr 24, 2009
stopcrazypp Yes, I think Tesla's model is closer to renting than what was previously mentioned. You get your battery back after your rent, not someone else's battery.
Again the only way generic battery swapping will work is if there is some kind of subscription fee (leasing or Better Place's pay by the mile plan) so you don't own the battery.�
Apr 24, 2009
Tdave Unless some unscrupulous station owner gives you an old battery and keeps yours. Hopefully the packs will have electronic identification recognizable by the car computer.�
Apr 24, 2009
doug I think when he said that, he meant with respect to cost of ownership. Money you would save on gas and also that the mechanically simpler car should depreciate less. That lower level of depreciation would be reflected in the cost of the lease. That was the argument I took him to mean anyway. I think it's on one of the videos I took at the Model S LA party.�
Apr 24, 2009
ozman You are still considering it from a perspective in which you've paid for the battery pack. "my battery pack" wouldn't apply if you were swapping them regularly, and had a guarantee that you'd never get a battery pack that had been depleted past say 80% usability. Tesla could (and I imagine certainly would) easily monitor deterioration of the battery pack on each swap and assign the amount of deterioration to a user and charge them appropriately. All these things are relatively minor issues.�
Apr 29, 2009
TEG I suppose this topic needs a few mentions of battery swap ideas from days past.
(VFX had posted this link before)
GreenMotor: Mercedes: battery swapping is so last century - green car and electric vehicle blog - formerly Auto-IT.co.uk
JMC 1997 proposal for battery swapping�
May 13, 2009
TEG US firm unveils new battery tech for electric cars - Business | DailyAdvance.com�
Jun 29, 2009
TEG Another old mention of battery swap here:
Sounding Circle: Li-Ion tzero Electric Vehicle
�
Jul 17, 2009
TEG Hybrid Cars: Study: Battery Swapping the key to electric cars�
Jul 19, 2009
tdelta1000 Hello everyone. I'm new to the forum but have been lurking for some time. Here's a link to the Agassi Better Place�
Oct 15, 2009
TEG Tesla Model S Added to List of Battery Swap Capable EVs - All Cars Electric
REPORT: Tesla Model S was designed with battery swaps in mind
�
Oct 15, 2009
dpeilow Yes, I thought All Cars Electric were extremely late with that story, given that they were quoting someone else's story from over two weeks ago. It was old news by then.�
Oct 30, 2009
gdubak Battery Swapping
Better Place swapping station is scheduled to cost $500,000. NuTech-Energy Solutions has a portable battery swapper that will cost $100,000.�
Feb 17, 2010
kabalah70 Battery Swap vs. Rapid Recharge
Battery Swaps are an interim solution until Level 3 charging is widely available and therefore allows the demand for battery chemistries like lithium titanate to come down in price that can take advantage of the rapid recharging level 3 provides.
Putting aside the fact that you are stuck with some sort of contractual obligation to swap only a designated spots eliminating competition for the service, as far as I have read yet, nobody has talked about the very likely possibility of showing up at a battery swap station and it not having a fully charged battery for you to use. Everybody hitting the same station for the Labor Day weekend for example.
Making a car with a swappable battery does have one extreme advantage even if it were to have rapid recharge capability. If something goes wrong with it, it makes a swap at the maintenance shop a whole lot easier.�
Apr 7, 2010
Lush1 Can't wait to drop my perfect 300 mile babied battery pack for somebody else's sick puppy with a bunch of marginal cells.�
Apr 10, 2010
Mark R I was at the Los Angeles store last weekend and the Model S just happened to be there for a photo shoot. I'm a future owner and just seeing it in the wild gave me hope that yes, we will start seeing cars in 2012. It's much BIGGER than I thought. Think BMW 7 series or Mercedes "S" class.�
Apr 10, 2010
TEG Yeah, I was hoping more for C-class size (not E/S-class), but I gather "seating for 7" was a design requirement, and larger luxury sedans do tend to command more of a premium price.�
Apr 10, 2010
vfx We have always thought is was a bit much. There are only two of us.�
Apr 10, 2010
TEG If you have a set of twins, and a set of triplets, I suppose seating for 7 is rather desirable.�
Apr 10, 2010
Albern :biggrin:
That's what a minivan is for.
Ooopps... I hope a certain someone isn't reading this.�
Apr 25, 2010
Lush1 Change of plan. The nerve pain won so Sunday I went to my Infiniti dealer looking to trade in my stick G35 for an automatic version. I wound up with a 2003 Mercedes CLK 500 with a 5.0 litre V8, the very kind of car at which I was sniping. Looks like I'll be a hypocrite for the next 2 years and be burning a little more gas before I stop altogether when I get my Model S. The price was right, the car was immaculate, it only had 38K miles on it and I just couldn't resist. I had never even driven a MB before my test drive Sunday. This is probably going to be my last chance ever to drive a Mercedes in my life, unless they come out with a BEV someday. I like to keep my cars for at least 10 years if I can but sadly I had to part with my G prematurely. I hope to keep the Model S for a decade. I'll be 70ish then and who knows what choices in electric cars will be available then. Hopefully ONLY electric cars by then.�
Apr 28, 2010
Iz Hi Lush1, good luck with the MB. At least it is not new. I've commited NOT to purchase a new vehicle unless it is an EV. Actually, all of my vehicles have been "pre owned". Model S will be my first new.
See you at the Northeast Model S rally :biggrin:�
Apr 28, 2010
Lush1 I'll be at the rally, count on it.
I had made the same resolution about not buying a new car unless it was electric. I wouldn't have traded in my 6 speed manual Infiniti but health reasons forced me to get an automatic. I would have been happy to hang on to my G35 for another 2 years but sadly, I couldn't hang in there. When it became apparent that I needed an automatic, I planned to just trade the stick for an automatic G35 until, on a whim, I took a test drive in the used MB. Not the kind of car I ever expected to own in my life but I figured this was a perfect opportunity to try one out. I had never even driven one before. The deal was good, mileage was low and I got a 2 year extended warranty so I'm set until I get my Model S. This will be my last ICE car, but what a way to go out. It's got a zippy 5.0 liter V8 in it so it's real bad karma car. I hope buying the S helps me pay off some of the karmic debt I'm accumulating while driving the Benz.�
Apr 29, 2010
ChrisC Continuing the tangent ... I allowed myself to start thinking about a new car two years ago, and quickly came to the decision that the next car will be an EV. I've been watching the EV business closely since then and am now firm in that decision. I may wait until the Model S to pull the trigger, but it will definitely be an EV. It even says so on the back of my car, a gas-guzzling luxury sport sedan, with a sticker similar to this one:
http://rlv.zcache.com/my_next_car_will_be_electric_bumper_sticker-p128272922635066744tmn6_210.jpg�
Dec 7, 2010
TEG Back on topic:
http://blog.betterplace.com/2010/12/myth-buster-can-our-switch-stations-accommodate-different-battery-types/�
Jan 11, 2011
heems Looks like the 1-minute battery swap option has been removed from the Model S features page on TM website... I think it used to be there.�
Jan 19, 2011
theBike45 I'm not familiar with the design of the Model S batttery pack, but if it were me, I would provide for three sections, one occupied
for 160, two for 230 and three for the 300 mile range option. I think battery technology and lowered costs has made both the Chevy Volt
and Better Place totally obsolete. They both only made sense (if at all) in a world of very heavy, very expensive, and very slow charging batteries.
The only thing motivating them was hysterical fear of carbon emissions and ignorance of the effect that EVs would have. It's clear that, for the most
part, 300 mile (and probably 230 mile) battery packs are only needed when travelling. Many people seldom travel. Therefore, with the expandible
battery design I previously suggested, a good strategy for as long as battery costs are substantial, would seem to be to endow Tesla
dealerships with the ability to swap in the one (or two) pack segments needed to provide a 300 mile pack and rent them.�
Jan 20, 2011
dsm363 I don't get it. That would shift the weight depending on the location of your section. The entire battery pack can be swapped out so that takes care of that problem. Tesla has talked about the possibily of renting longer range packs but nothing definite that I know of.
Please format your posts in the editor here. These run-on paragraphs aren't great to read. Thanks.�
Jan 20, 2011
Eberhard 160miles and 230 mile option will be different in number of cells, the 300mile will have same number of cells like 230miles option but using different capacity like 3100mA instead of 2200mA�
Feb 13, 2011
Norbert On the "Innovations" page, it still says:
Perhaps Tesla just doesn't make it a major point anymore as it might not have plans for building swapping stations. In any case, it will be useful to allow upgrading the battery pack without larger work costs.�
Feb 13, 2011
JimmWilks Surely changing the number of cells will alter the weight of the car, therefore altering it's performance? Does this mean the lowest range car will be the performer, or that Tesla will "add weight" equivalent so that performance is equal across the range?�
Feb 13, 2011
jkirkebo Or the 160 mile version might pump out less power from the motor due to the smaller battery not being able to supply as much power as the 230 mile version.�
Feb 13, 2011
stopcrazypp jkirkebo is correct. The smallest capacity battery will provide the least amount of power (assuming the same discharge rate). That is why I suspect the cars with larger batteries will also offer more power (the motors will be sized to handle the additional power).
It'll be like buying a V6 vs a V8 except you gain extra range too.�
Feb 13, 2011
rabar10 Guessing the motors will be the same (unless there's some separate Sport variant). At low speeds, the acceleration/torque/current is limited by the motor or PEM. See the torque curve on Tesla's site *here*. As you gain speed with a flat torque curve, the power requirements go up until you hit the power sourcing capability of the battery pack. Then you stay at roughly constant power until the back-EMF and other high-speed motor inefficiencies start to affect the top end.
On their graph, the effect would be to shift the torque fall-off point to a higher speed, giving you a larger max kw/horsepower number and more 'oomph' through the car's top-end.
This trend of larger battery packs having better performance should still hold when taking into account the extra weight from more cells when going from the 160- to 230-mile packs. In fact, the 300-mile pack should see an even bigger improvement, if the PEM can handle the extra power and the higher-capacity cells offer similar discharge rates and weigh about the same...
</nerd> :smile:�
Mar 20, 2011
doug Tesla�s Model S Battery Is Swappable, Just in Case - Reuters�
May 5, 2011
TEG New details emerge on battery swap plans for Tesla Model S Autoblog Green�
May 5, 2011
Fr23shjive So this battery swapping is basically the same as renting a battery?
Sounds like an excellent idea. I wonder if you can swap a 160 mile battery for a 300 mile battery for long trips?�
May 5, 2011
AndrewBissell I think that is the idea�
May 6, 2011
Nik This is where the dealer network strategy comes in to play - it would really help if TM had a nationwide network of affiliates (bases from which Rangers could operate, don't need to be retail quality) for people to collect their batteries from. A battery loan system is fantastic, it makes the car more affordable by removing the need for a 300-mile battery, but it's no use if I have to drive even 100 miles to fetch my new battery, nor will I pay the cost (even at no margin) of sending out specialist staff and machinery to do they job for me.�
May 6, 2011
jkirkebo Well, it really depends on if the 100 miles you have to drive to rent the battery is the same direction you'll travelling anyway ?�
May 6, 2011
AndrewBissell I agree with Nik. (subtle UK political joke intended, but as side-effect only.
For me it's about 400 miles to the nearest Tesla Store so I don't yet see how this battery rental idea would benof any use to me - unless they offer them via a national chain of tyre and exhaust centres like Kwik Fit who after all will want some alternative to exhausts at some point. But then all the logistical points about Better Place come into play - how many batteries do you need, positioned where, etc.
Would it ever make sense to have a pre-order system in which a chain like that fits a battery shipped out by Tesla (and then removes and ships it back after your roadtrip)? On the face of it weight and size (=transport costs) might preclude that but it's worth a thought. Tyres and exhasusts aren't tiny or massless.�
Aug 9, 2011
Kipernicus Has there been any update on whether Tesla will rent out 300mi packs for the occasional long trip?�
Aug 10, 2011
gg_got_a_tesla No... <speculation>But, they might end up striking a partnership with someone like Better Place.</speculation>
This is about Better Place's recent launch in Denmark:
Better Place showcases first Europe station | Green Tech - CNET News
And, here's Better Place at work in our own backyard:
California progress | Better Place�
Aug 11, 2011
doug Not that I've heard, but seeing how all the first cars will ship with the 300mi battery, we might not learn anything new about it for a while.�
Oct 20, 2011
Larry Chanin Nigel has an update.
�
Oct 21, 2011
TEG Yeah, I heard further confirmations that they don't see the business case to support pack swap right now.
(Although there was the rumor that they might be doing pack swap at the factory tour event, but switching drivers all day long to give constant test rides is an extreme example.)
Even if quick swap capability isn't done routinely for long trips, it will still be nice to know that they can do it at service centers quickly if they ever have to repair or replace your pack for service reasons.�
Oct 21, 2011
doug How easy is it to steal?�
Oct 21, 2011
rabar10 I wouldn't want to be under it when I got all the bolts loose :biggrin:�
Oct 21, 2011
TEG Wow, what a question... Hmmm... Possibly $20K+ worth of batteries there. I suppose some kind of lock could be in order.
A workmate had a catalytic converter stolen off the bottom of his truck while it was parked in our very public parking lot.
They used some sort of portable sawzall to cut right through the exhaust pipe...�
Oct 21, 2011
doug Try $40K+ for the 300 mile battery. Well anyhow you'd expect there to be an alarm with notifications for your mobile device and some sort of system status report long before anyone got that far. Tilt sensors and what not...�
Oct 22, 2011
Adm Do remember: This is not a 20 pound cat, but a +1000 pound battery bolted to the bottom of your car with 10+ bolts. I don't think it's feasible to take down the battery unless you're in a work shop with something to support the battery while you unbolt it. Everything can be stolen, but I think it will probably be "easier" to steal the entire car than to steal the battery.
Also, I think the front end of the battery is too thick to clear from under the car unless you at least lift the front end of the car as well.�
Oct 22, 2011
zack I imagine the battery has identity electronics that make it useless to steal anyway.�
Oct 22, 2011
WhiteKnight And the only place to use a Model S battery pack is in a Model S. Unless you're stealing it to convert to scrap. At which point you'd do better to steal the whole car or move on to something that's a little easier to steal.
By the way, is there anything about an electric car that makes it harder to steal the whole car? With nothing mechanical (like a key) on the car I would think it would be harder. But maybe it's easy to spoof the electronic key?�
Oct 22, 2011
richkae The only thing that makes an EV easier to steal than an ICE is that it could drive away silently...
It is trivial to make an electronic key much stronger than a physical key, that is not a weak point.
The way to break an electronic key is to steal tools from a service department and then hack into the IT system that controls them - if those tools are poorly designed and vulnerable then they could override the electronic key. All of that is much much harder than overriding a physical lock.
It would be so much easier to steal the whole car than to steal the battery that I doubt it would ever happen.
The only scenario that would make sense is one where the owner does not discover the missing battery for a long time because they dont drive the car - but to a casual inspection the car is still there. But even still you need a lift, and tools, and a dolly of some kind, and a large truck...�
Oct 25, 2011
vfx I counted about 26.�
Oct 25, 2011
TEG I just saw this story of a 5,300 pound bell that was recently stolen, apparently to be scrapped...
2.5-Ton Bell Snatched from SF Church | NBC Bay Area�
Oct 25, 2011
gg_got_a_tesla Can one say "LoJack for the Battery Pack" ?!�
Oct 25, 2011
Adm You cannot compare this. The 2.5t bell was in the parking lot. I have clients with cranes on their trucks that could park 20ft away and just lift it on to their truck in under a minute. With Model S you have to get under the car and take care of 26 bolts (thank you vfx) support the battery so it doesn't drop while it's still bolted with one bolt and damages the battery and than lift the car high enough to get the battery and the dolly from under the car... I know better than to say it cannot be done, but I am pretty sure it would take a NASCAR pit crew and some serious professional material to get in done in just minutes.�
Oct 25, 2011
vfx Then watch out they don't come and pick up your car and drive away with it. !�
Oct 25, 2011
Adm Ouch, new problem. But wait:
I could imagine the Tesla App sending a message if the car is moved without the key being near.�
Oct 28, 2011
drbradfo Given the price of platinum, I suspect thieves are much more interested in catalytic converter..... oh wait a minute.�
Oct 28, 2011
Larry Chanin Hi,
No doubt there are 26 or more bolts as part of the battery assembly, but it doesn't seem reasonable that Tesla would be able to make claims of 2 to 5 minute swapping if 26 bolts were used to attach the battery pack to the chassis.
Larry�
Oct 28, 2011
Mycroft When it's on a lift, it would probably take about 1 minute to remove 26 bolts.�
Oct 28, 2011
Larry Chanin An average of 2.3 seconds per bolt?
Larry�
Oct 28, 2011
richkae I think the whole battery swap discussion is pointless.
I dont want it - I'll never use it.
I want to own my battery and not lease it - since I own it, I am not interested in swapping it with anyone.
If I have the choice of a 45 minute quick charge stop or a 5 minute battery swap stop - I choose charging. With a 300(320!) mile range battery, I am not going to do that very often anyway.
If I drove 500 miles every day, I would reconsider, but I plan to do it a few times per year and owning *my* battery is more important to me.�
Oct 28, 2011
richkae I also expect, that even if someone put in battery swap stations, there will always be an order of magnitude more charging locations because they are so much cheaper to install and operate.
Therefore they will always be in more convenient locations.�
Oct 28, 2011
qwk There is such a thing as air tools...�
Oct 28, 2011
Mycroft I agree richkae. I don't think it would ever become economically viable. We'll have high power DC charging and maybe even ultra-caps before that would happen.�
Oct 31, 2011
Doug_G I was told at the factory tour that the pack installation machine simultaneously undoes all 26 bolts by itself.�
Oct 31, 2011
NigelM I was told at the factory tour that the pack installation machine simultaneously attaches all 26 bolts by itself.�
Oct 31, 2011
Doug_G Uh yeah... removes AND installs the bolts by itself.�
Nov 1, 2011
Waverider I was told by one of the floor employees at the Santana Row store that battery swapping like BetterPlace was not realistic and Tesla was not moving in that dirction. The battery can be replaced, say in 5 years to get "a new car." Not sure how much I'd read into this because the floor people didn't seem to know a whole lot because "they're too close to the public."�
Nov 1, 2011
Larry Chanin Exclusive Interview: Elon Musk Shows Cool Confidence About Tesla's Future
Larry�
Nov 14, 2011
VolkerP is there a thread dedicated to Project Better Place? The success of roll out in Israel+ Denmark surely will feed the fearmongers in one or other way - I'd like to stay informed.�
Nov 14, 2011
TEG Project Better Place�
Nov 14, 2011
TEG Although Tesla seems to be downplaying the idea of doing pack swaps, I just noticed this:
Range Anxiety and the Fear of the Electric Vehicle - CarsDirect.com
�
Nov 14, 2011
Mycroft They're downplaying it because they know what an idiotic and financially unsound idea it is. Yet reporters keep asking about it.�
Nov 14, 2011
Kipernicus That seems like a very old article. Tesla hasn't referred to themselves as a San Carlos company for several years now right?�
Jan 5, 2012
dsm363 Since another sticky was added, does this still need to be one?�
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