Mar 25, 2015
David100 Hello happy Tesla owners (will join in June - can't wait).
I know there are already many threads about Premium Sound VS Standard Sound.
This is why, in this thread I would like to focus on Premium Sound only.
Not debating whether it is worth upgrading or not.
I would say I have a fairly good experience about what hi-fi sound can be.
I am a long-time Hi-Fi enthusiast, have a deep-in-the-5-digits-range set-up at home and owned several cars with high end sound.
For most Hi-Fi enthusiasts (including me), premium sound is not about booming sound but immersive and true-live sound.
The absolute set-up would be the one where you cannot tell anymore if the band is playing for real around you, or if it is just your set-up playing.
It is also very important that you cannot tell anymore where the speakers are - they have to completely blend away.
With closed eyes it should become impossible to tell where the speakers are with a true hi-fi set-up, when you are in the sweet spot.
Well, now, back to the Tesla hi-fi premium sound, using uncompressed hi-res flac audio files on USB key.
Of course, I understand a car hi-fi set-up can not beat a premium home set-up, nor can a 2.500 � car set-up beat a 10.000 � car set-up.
But still...
To my ears, the Tesla premium sound is not immersive enough.
I hear way to much the sound coming from the driver side speaker, and from the front in general.
For testing purpose, I played pushing the sound into each corner of the car.
When the sound is fully pushed to the back speakers the problem seems quite obvious.
The sound is very weak back there, even when pushed to max volume.
Again, I am not talking about booming sound, but all-range sound.
And I am not talking about lound sound neither but good balanced sound.
This is to the point where I am wondering if the back speakers are working or are defective, or are they massively underpowered ?
I feel a very obvious Front/Back Balance problem.
Is it just me, or was it a bad car (I did this test in a demo car - my S85D will be delivered (with hi-fi sound) in early June (in Europe)).
Have I not played enough with the settings (I have played quite some time though).
Have I not found the child protection back sound security switch level ?
Is this better in more recently built cars (some components changed in stealth mode) ?
Will the new Codecs change something (I guess not, since it was a stereo recording so the codecs are not involved in front / back distribution) ?
I hope it was just a defective car.
Do you experience the same thing (Try maxing rear volume, compared to front).Or not ?
Thanks a lot.
Of course, I am still very enthusiast about the car in general - and the wait becomes exponentially painful.
But obviously... this sound thing bothers me somehow.�
Mar 25, 2015
1NJ85D Precisely my opinion!!�
Mar 25, 2015
mgboyes I'm not an audiophile and have not tested my premium audio system in the sort of ways that you describe.
But from a purely practical point of view, for example when the kids are listening to their music or to the soundtrack of a movie, I agree 100% that if you push the fader all the way to the rear of the car the quantity and quality of the sound output are both extremely lacking.
This is made all the more strange by the fact that the subwoofer is physically in the trunk - yet if you push the sound to the rear it seems to be completely unused.�
Mar 25, 2015
Trustno1 Hello
This is my first post on theese forums, but have been a long time reader.
Since I have been a car audio enthusiast for many many years, I thought I could pitch in here.
What you are expiriencing is the lack of "time correction" in the Model S' audio system.
In any car audio system you will never sit in the true sweetspot, so this has to be manipulated electronically. What a time correction does, is to delay the sound from the closest speaker so that it matches when the sound arrives from the furthest speaker.
This combined with slightly lower volume on the closest speaker will make the impression of you sitting in the sweetspot.
Personally i would just fade out the rear speakers completly. Music is allmost allways just recorded in stereo, and to get good focal points for the sounds, you need just two speaker points to replicate this sound. More than this will just make the soundstage more difuse and not match each other.
The big problem in the Model S is how you can achive this electronically manipulated sweetspot. This is usually done with a DSP (Digital sound processor) however, it will need some tinkering with the audio system to implement it.�
Mar 25, 2015
David100 Dear Trustno1,
Welcome and thank you for your input.
But even without 'DSP time correction' (which would further improve the experience for sure) there is something obviously going with the plain and simple rear VOLUME.
As Mgboyes, mentions, in every low-price car with basic 4 speaker set-up, it is convenient to push the sound a little more to the back when children are listening to the music in the back and parents are talking in the front.
This is simply not possible in this 100k car.
There is something obviously going very wrong with Tesla Sound.
I am pretty sure the back sound volume is just not working as it should.
Back volume seems to be close to muted. I cannot imagine it has been designed purposely this way in the first time.
As for most obvious problems, a simple and easy fix should solve the problem.
- - - Updated - - -
Typo correction : there is something obviously going wrong with the plain and simple rear VOLUME.�
Mar 25, 2015
Trustno1 Ok, I see I havent really answered your question.
I have really not tested my rear speakers, since I dont have childeren and rarely have anyone in the back seat, but I see your problem.
I dont think they should be that weak, that you barely hear them
I cant test right now since I'm inbetween cars atm (sold my P85, getting my P85D in 4 days), but I can test when I get the new car
However there could be a couple of explainations:
1. The speakers are not propely broken in. You have to play speakers at higher volume for some time to get them to perform optimally. However if you barly hear them I doubt this may be the case
2. There may be bad connection in the speakerwires to the hatch/reardoors
As I said earlier, I really not have bothered with the rear sound, so I havent really given this much thought, but I think there is both rearspeakers in the rear doors, and the rear hatch. Is this correct? Do you have problems with the sound from both?�
Mar 25, 2015
David100 Trustno1,
The lack of break-in could be an explanation - but I would say not to that level of lack of Volume.
I was in a demo car, standing still at the Service Center. I do not know how old the car was, but I guess old enough for due break-in (it was a pre-"D" car).
The problem was general from all rear speakers - I have not checked more precisely speaker by speaker.
I hope indeed it is something like bad connections - and not something more problematic.
Thank you for testing this (push all sound backward) in your new P85D - congratulations by the way
And thank you for anyone willing to test this. Choose a volume - high enough - push everything to front, then back, then front, then back.
Do you hear a huge difference in front / back levels (back MUCH weaker than fronts).�
Mar 25, 2015
Pollux Hi, @David100,
I believe I observe reduced sound levels from the rear speakers, as you describe. (I, too, have the premium audio.)
Some people swear by the Reus package. I don't know if the Reus folks do business in Europe. Here in the US, they travel around the country doing installation parties. 5-10 Tesla owners get together to have their Reus systems installed at the same time, and Reus sends a guy out for a day or two to do the work.
If your car hasn't gone into production yet, you may still have time to modify the order to delete the Tesla audio and use that money for a third-party system later.
I am not unhappy with the Tesla audio, I just see the same problem with it that you apparently do. I am not an audiophile, so it's not a deal-breaker for me. But, having said that, when I buy my next Model S (order will be placed around July, 2016), I will think hard about whether to invest in another Tesla OEM audio system or in a third-party system instead.
Alan�
Mar 25, 2015
Lawsteve Funny to see this post, as I posted about the same exact problem over a year ago:
Audio: Sound System Quality? - Page 44
i actually took my car into the service center and had them check the connections and the amps that powered the system. The result was being told "this is just the way the system is built."
Sorry to see that the newer cars have not received any improvements.�
Mar 25, 2015
David100 Hi Pollux,
Well... I would preferably not upgrade to aftermarkt systems and stick to pure Tesla.
I am already in the beyond the upper range of what I am willing to spend on the car (I thing I understood the Reus Package is another 3.5 to 5 k�).
Also, I am not expecting my Tesla to have incredibly stellar sound. I just want the Premium Sound to be fair for 2.5 k�.
What I am expecting is really basic here : normal back and front balance.
The lack of volume in the back seems to be so obvious that it should easily be fixed by Tesla : connection issue, back amp or speakers to be upgraded or something obvious in the sound system that is defective.
Also I do not remember (and can not find anymore) the amount of watts the Tesla Premium system has built in - but it is fairly massive.
With that amount of power, it is not possible that the rear speakers would have such a low volume by design.
I am hoping that there is something obviously wrong, for which an easy fix must exist.
ps : Not a deal breaker for me neither - I am sure I will enjoy the remaining of my Tesla so much. Wonderful machine. Anyway, I keep hoping that this sound issue can be solved.
- - - Updated - - -
@ Lawsteve,
I agree - What you describe reflects exactly my experience.
We are in the same boat here.�
Mar 25, 2015
mgboyes Seems to me that it may be as simple as the fact that the subwoofer is driven in proportion to the volume of the front speakers.
So when you fade all the way to the back (-20 on the display) the small speakers mounted on the inside of the trunk lid are active, but nothing else. The result is barely better than using the iPad's built in speaker.
As mentioned in the other thread, if you disconnect the subwoofer completely the difference is huge.�
Mar 25, 2015
krisg81 It could simply be the way Tesla is outputting the sound to the rear speakers in the console itself, using a DSP setting.
anyone who has a Home Audio receiver may understand this. I think what is occurring is the rear speakers are more of a background/ambience volume level in the software, like listening to music through Dolby ProLogic on a home audio receiver (also, with premium sound, turn OFF Dolby Audio for a better sound stage).
On my Yamaha Aventege receivers I have at home, I have the same issue when playing music- nice loud sound in the front channels, low volume in the rear. When I switch it to 7 Channel Stereo mode, since music is always recorded in stereo, it then outputs that audio to the rear channels in stereo, the same way it matrix's sound to the front speakers- the result is a perfectly balanced 7 channel stereo sound no matter what speaker the music is playing from.
Tesla just needs to add a way to output audio in a similar way, output stereo to all channels and not output rear music as background filler like Dolby ProLogic. I am thinking this was done just for the listeners in the front seat to create a decent sound stage, but in a perfect world, the audio settings should allow multiple DSP settings like most home audio receivers.�
Mar 25, 2015
David100 @krisg81
Encouraging - Thanks !
Let's just hope this can be handled by software upgrade indeed - and that it is not a matter of rear amps or speakers being genuinely too weak.�
Mar 25, 2015
Tampaukfan I sat in a P85D with the upgraded sound and it sounded great, car was one of the first P85Ds (low 6 vin). I then sat in a S85 D that had just a few hundred miles with the same sound system and it sounded like crap.
So its either a break in issue, setting issue or software...�
Mar 25, 2015
Gizmotoy There have been these complaints of huge discrepancies between sound car-to-car for years. Several times updates have supposedly improved the situation for those with poor audio quality, but I've been pretty lucky in that I "got a good one." I ran a back-to-back test with 2012s and 2013s of varying ages (we have a number of Teslas in my apartment complex so we got together). There were substantial differences between the vehicles.
The general points stand, though. Tesla has definitively taken the "concert hall" approach to car audio where the single most important aspect of the sound is the staging. The front speakers are good and provide a nice stage directly in front of the driver. Immersion suffers horribly in this pursuit, as noted, because the rear speakers are of relatively low quality compared to the fronts.
I've been able to dial in my system to reduce the effect, but it's still apparent. Ultimately this involved a partial fade to the rear to bring up the rear levels, but not so much as to overload them. I lose a bit of maximum volume performance, but immersion is substantially improved. I'm not a fan of the "concert hall" approach to sound design. I mostly listen to studio albums, I want them to sound like I'm standing amongst the band in the studio, not out in the audience of a concert.�
Mar 25, 2015
nrcooled I'm an early adopter (#3225) and, at that time, for $990 the premium sound is well worth the upgrade. For $2500...I'm on the fence. I will say that I do enjoy the sound of my music in the car and find that the levels are pretty decent. With that said, the volume levels of my USB music seems to be a bit low and I have observed the same things you have in regards to sound levels from the rear (these are m4p and mp3 files at 328 or higher I don't have any flac files).
Oddly enough, using Bluetooth 4.1 and streaming I am able to adjust the levels using the "AudioFX" on my phone and I can artificially boost the levels to compensate. Using that and by using the balance/fader to focus the sound on my driver's seat does bring about a more immersive sound stage. Leaving the Balance/Fader set to the center gives too much power to the driver's door speaker and thus you can distinctly pick out the one speaker as being too "bright".�
Mar 25, 2015
1NJ85D Expanding on my previous post.
I have an 85D delivered in February in the USA with the Ultra High Fidelity Sound.
In summary, I strongly agree with what is being documented here. I reported the problem to my SC and after checking out the car, they told me that "the system was operating as designed".
I have the impression the sound is coming from under the dash, in the direction of my right knee.
As posted above, no matter what I do (fade, bass, treble), I can't get the sound to be immersive and fill the cabin.
My impression is that the front speakers provide a decent frequency coverage (from lows to highs) except for the very lows (sub-woofer). On the other hand, the rear speakers (except for the sub-woofer) provide only mid and high-frequency coverage. No low frequencies.
Try putting everything back to center/neutral and walk around the car trying to listen to the sound coming from the different speakers. You will probably notice, like me, that the front door speakers cover a decent range but the rear door speakers are pathetic. We need better rear door speakers.
It appears to me, in lay language, that Tesla has made sure that the sum of the audio coming from the 12 (!) speakers provides a proper "curve" but did not take into consideration the position of the speakers.
With the material difference between front/rear speakers, it becomes impossible to achieve the immersive / fill-the-cabin experience we can get on cheaper cars ...�
Mar 25, 2015
Gizmotoy Tesla won't be much, if any, help on this. At least one owner has even received the "operating as designed" response with a blown speaker. They don't appear to have the tools or interest to diagnose audio issues.
That said, I'm surprised you find your stage so low. It makes some sense as they fitted the best speakers in the front doors, but mine seems notably higher. Could be EQ-related, as the dash has 3 mid-range speakers and 2 tweeters. The more bass-biased your settings, the lower your stage will be, most likely.
Anyway, this is an interesting read on the Tesla's collaboration with s1nn to design the system (scroll down for English):
http://www.s1nn.de/system/uploads/attachment/file/548ed54bbfc4384f1f00000b/Tesla-TechnischeInformationen_deutsch_englisch.pdf�
Mar 25, 2015
Sigma4Life Did anyone try disabling the Dolby surround setting? That makes a noticeable difference in how the sound system functions.�
Mar 25, 2015
Nevek Great find! With all the questions about standard vs premium sound, I have never found a definition of what is added for the extra $2500. This excerpt from your link spells it out:
"The sound system hardware in the Model S will impress even the most discerning mu-sic lover. The basic version of the sound system generates 200 watts, with 40-wattspeakers (160 mm) incorporated in all four doors and two passive tweeters (30 mm) inthe A-pillar. A mid-range speaker (80 mm) located centrally on the dashboard adds afurther 40 watts. In the premium version � which around 70 percent of Tesla customersopt for after listening to demo systems � the sound system has an output of 560 watts.Two tweeters (30 mm) in the A-pillar each deliver up to 20 watts and two mid-rangespeakers (80 mm) each add a further 40 watts. Two 80-watt woofers (200 mm) are fittedin the front doors and two 40-watt speakers (160 mm) in the rear doors. Three 40-wattmid-range speakers (80 mm) complete the surround sound system. One special featureis the 80-watt bass box. Comparable models have boxes with a volume of eight totwelve liters, but the Tesla Model S has a 25-liter bass box for a particularly impressivedepth of sound. The sound aspect is extremely important to Tesla. This is demonstrated by the fact that the premium automaker strengthened the sheet metal and claddingaround the speakers especially for the sound system. This reinforcement gives the sys-tem an exceptionally dynamic and distortion-free high-definition sound."
The hardware sounds like it could be worth the cost, although the results seem to be in question.�
Mar 25, 2015
1NJ85D Turning off Dolby does make things better but doesn't solve the problem.�
Mar 25, 2015
thegruf Did I see that 6.2 has a new codec supposed to improve SQ?
Anybody have any experience of this
My issue as an imminent P85D purchaser is whether the UHFS is worth it at GBP2100 given the mixed reviews , but as the standard Audio does not have DAB Radio, the only way is to go UHFS�
Mar 25, 2015
MsElectric If you are buying a P85D, the extra cost for the sound upgrade IMHO is a no brainer. It seems there is wide consensus on this thread that it is significantly better than the stock audio system, especially if you use a high quality audio source such as lossless audio tracks via USB.�
Mar 25, 2015
David100 Yes indeed - Anyone interested in sound quality and who can afford the extra 2% should go for the premium sound package.
So please, let's not make this thread an other 'should I upgrade' thread (let's focus on topic : premium sound quality)
The question is 'why is premium sound so obviously lacking rear power despite the fact that it sports +500 Watts (which is impressive enough)' - and 'can it be fixed by software upgrade or is the hardware set-up wrong?'�
Mar 25, 2015
Pinot.Noir Is the premium sound system able to play lossless 5.1 correctly? Any chance it can play Blu Ray or DVD-A?�
Mar 25, 2015
Galve2000 Does anyone know if the Reus upgrade can add SiriusXM to the standard audio package? I believe for a while that was not the case but perhaps now things have changed? $2500 buys a lot in aftermarket car audio equipment and so I feel the Ultra High Fidelity Sound upgrade is not worth if for me. but it depresses me that Satellite radio is not an option with the basic radio b/c I have really gown to like it and will miss it when my Model S arrives.�
Mar 25, 2015
krisg81 Definitely. Just having bass from the subwoofer is worth it. The stock stereo is worse than my Jeep Wrangler's Alpine system (but I admit its pretty good for being in a Jeep!) and its below the audio you find in a Camry or Accord, no joke. Unless you have plans of adding a subwoofer to a non-premium stereo system- go for the Premium Audio upgrade.�
Mar 25, 2015
Gizmotoy While wattage isn't a good measure for this sort of thing, the magnitudes are such that you'll likely find this telling:
Wattage (front): 320
Wattage (rear, excluding sub): 160
That's about the extent of it given the majority of the interior space is behind you, although the rear doors appear to be the same 40W 160mm units that everyone seems to hate in the standard sound package (where they're in both the front and rear doors). When paired with the meager 80mm 40W speakers in the hatch, there's just not much that can be done. The car is huge and half the power is up front, leaving little hope those far-away rear speakers to fill the rear of the vehicle with sound.
Again, I don't think that the setup is "wrong" so much as they purposefully chose concert staging. If that's the goal, you stack the front of the vehicle. Some people like that. I'm not one of them, but it does have fans. Given our massive interior volume, it might have been the best financial choice to keep costs down.�
Mar 25, 2015
Cyclone Trying to avoid going off-topic too much, but Giz'd post hits home I believe. The rear has half the power of the front, and that's with the upgrade! I honestly think I might go standard + aftermarket. Hopefully 6.2's eminent release will give some details about the sound enhancements. While software cannot overcome this hardware bias to the front of the car, it might be able to help somewhat.�
Mar 25, 2015
krisg81 Don't expect anything other than a volume bump throughout the 1-11 volume range in the software update. I doubt there will be any difference at all. I know Elon is brilliant, but his tweets and promises are very underwhelming lately.. wheres that performance enhancing inverter update for the P cars again? Seems to have been quietly swept under the rug after his tweet. Sometimes he tweets BS and then later deletes them too. If wanting a true audiophile experience, rule of thumb is OEM will never satisfy you. With what you are saying, definitely go for the standard and upgrade it yourself. Problem is the console is not upgradable and it will be difficult to fine tune the sound with the OEM hardware, which obviously lacks pre-outs.�
Mar 25, 2015
EarlyAdopter The system doesn't lack pre-outs, they're right there on the back of the center display unit. It's just a linux PC running on an Nvidia Tegra 3 chipset with standard PC-like soundcard output. The connectors just aren't standard RCA jacks, instead they're a Fakra-style automotive connector. Companies like Reus have been able to nicely integrate new amps and speakers into the stock system.�
Mar 25, 2015
andrewket Reus uses a converter off the amplified audio to regain discrete to drive the amp(s).�
Mar 25, 2015
EMP40 It is really annoying that satellite radio requires the panoramic roof. Is Tesla really "too good" for the little fin? I can't believe it would have much effect on aerodynamics.�
Mar 25, 2015
krisg81 Exactly- its just that fine tuning via a head unit or aftermarket headunit that can process sounds to each individual set of preouts (Front/Rear/Sub) is much better than those converters. I am sure the Reus system is nice, but there are still limitations when tapping into an OEM head unit.�
Mar 25, 2015
gtimbers The Reus system is superb. They change out some transducers as well as adding additional amplification for their greatly improved subwoofer. i had a 2013 Model S with the premium sound system. I made many measurements of the system and several small improvements involving altering hardware a bit. I am currently Tesla free until March 31 when my 85D will be ready for pickup. I ordered th e premium sound package again and plan to make a few improvements to it immediately. It is my understanding that the new system is essentially the same as the original other than some EQ adjustments. No hardware or electronics improvements. I am not positive about this, but it certainly sounds like that to me based on what I have auditioned.
As mentioned, the system is very front heavy. The processing used to derive the rear channels is subpar by any reasonable standard. You will not be able to do anything to fix it with the existing controls and head unit. I would just get used to the front perspective. The good news is that the front setup is (or at least was) very good. The electronics are good and so are the transducers. The system has a Hi-Fi sound that is very unusual in a stock car system. It is very clear, relatively low distortion and very dynamic for a car system. It does not play extremely loud, but it is more than sufficient for great car sound.
One big problem is that in the show rooms, the systems are always jacked up. The best control settings for relative neutral tone balance is LF @ +1, MF @ -1, and HF @ 0 to -1. I am not sure about the new system, but that is a fact for the previous one. My quick listening in a P85D indicates t hat things are about the same. Now, the problem with This setup is that the bass control affects the front door woofers and the rear subwoofer. To get sufficient low bass, the control has to be advanced to the point where the lower voice range is too bassy and thick. An excellent solution for this problem is to add a separate subwoofer amplifier. You can use the speaker lines from the existing sub into an amp that accepts speaker leads in (most of them do). You need to get 12v power from somewhere. I plan to use the 12 volt plug on the center console. It only has a 10 A capacity but I have found that is sufficient to run a small auxiliary amp to more than sufficient levels. I don't do Rap or t he equivalent.
Now what you do is turn the sub off and adjust the bass control for most natural voice balance, without regard to extreme bass level. Once the 3 level controls are adjusted for most natural balance, you just turn up the sub using the new amplifier gain control until you get the amount of thump you like. The difference in the overall sound of the car will be huge! I used an amp with a remote level control which I mounted on the front inside edge off my seat. I can now adjust the extreme bass as I require as it changes dramatically from cut to cut. I put the little amp on the floor of the rear hidden compartment just in front of the woofer. It is out of the way and safe from harm.
The Reus system does something similar but they run fresh power from the front battery and get a clean stereo front feed from the head unit. They also change out the sub to much better one than stock. They additionally upgrade some other transducers with vastly better sounding units than stock. If you have the bucks, their system is awesome and their workmanship is top notch. If you are handy and have a few hundred dollars, what I have described will significantly improve your system. The stock woofer is adequate when separately powered.�
Mar 26, 2015
EarlyAdopter Sorry, I was refuting two different points and should have separated my reply into two paragraphs.
1. Model S does have line level outputs.
2. It will not be difficult to fine tune the sound with the OEM hardware, as Reus has done just that.�
Mar 26, 2015
craigbeat Can I just check, does the standard stereo not still come with the free TuneIn radio app + R.dio subscription? If so, all DAB channels would be available on TuneIn over the free 3g. I'm still trying to decide on Premium vs non-premium before placing my order (Standard S85).�
Mar 26, 2015
thegruf so long as you have good 3G signal .. which I dont always have, hence my frustration the DAB tuner is only part of the UHFS option.
In the UK at least a 70K GBP car without DAB is really a bit lame, especially as the hardware is <$50 and FM is planned to be switched off in future.
I have no problem with 2100 GBP option for the audio providing it is worth it, and the jury seems out on that at least for some.�
Mar 26, 2015
craigbeat Yeah, I feel the same. I had a demo of the premium system in the Knutsford showroom, and, even though the file was FLAC, there seemed to be a load of audio compression going on that I don't remember from the original track (Michael Jackson had pretty good production). I asked whether there was an option to turn the compression off, and he turned off Dolby. Overall I wasn't blown away by the sound, but I think with a bit of tuning, you could get it sorted. I'm still torn on whether to get a D or not, though!�
Mar 26, 2015
thegruf +1
(maybe the "new codec" in 6.2 s/w will fix it)
As for the P85D ... +1 to that too
- check the thread running about the 691hp availability, some really interesting stuff there, and I wait to see what Elon's tweet about greater power from a tweak to the inverter software is all about.
No doubt I'll give in at some point and just get a fully loaded P85D though. There's something irresistibly cool about hurling a 2 ton battery down the road with insane acceleration.�
Mar 26, 2015
Robert.Boston It should go without saying, but the quality of the input is very important. I strongly urge audiophiles to use FLAC files stored on large USB sticks to achieve the best quality sound. (The difference between streaming audio and FLAC is painfully obvious, particularly after my Reus upgrades.)�
Mar 26, 2015
craigbeat Yeah, it was a FLAC file they played in the showroom, but really wasn't blown away by the quality. I'm pretty certain that a software update would fix it. Mr Musk's comment on the 'new codec' seems bizarre, though, as I don't think the issue is codec related - surely the codec is the codec? Instead, I think it's a DSP issue. I'm hoping it's software. When is 6.2 due out? I think I'll wait for that before placing an order so I can hear the difference.�
Mar 26, 2015
Torpedo Ted Uhm, are you confusing Movie with Music? Music is supposed to be played from two speakers in front of you... Unless you have passengers in the rear, the rear speakers shouldn't be needed at all...
And the surround feature must be disabled, that's pretty obvious for anyone familiar with audio. Also, never increase bass/treble/mid. Instead, decrease the ones you dislike.�
Mar 26, 2015
David100 Dear Torpedo Ted,
Of course I agree with you.
My +25k set-up at home is pure stereo, based on Summit X Martin Logan speakers and Plinius electronics.
My system doesn't even have bass/treble levels. I never change the original sound. I want to hear the raw recording - as designed by the producer.
The first thing I did during my testing was of course to switch off the dolby DSP.
I agree with you that true audiophiles are about stereo, not surround / home-theater.
In a car you are very close to the speakers - much more than at home.
To have the speakers blend away, you need some rear power - otherwise the fronts are way too bright.
If this weren't true, why not just have two speakers in the car... why bothering with twelve ? Why having different settings for pano roof VS hard roof ?
A car is a closed box with reflection - not a home auditorium. Most of the "walls" of the car are made of glass... which are very bad for good acoustics. Optimal sound needs absorption not reflection. The best auditoriums are not symmetric for better diffusion and avoid resonance. A car is... symmetric.
So in a car you have to compensate, with other speakers to balance the full set-up.
I stick to the idea that It is not acceptable to have the drive speaker shouting in your ear like that.
Good balanced volume also provides immersion at lower levels - confort, no fatigue.
Also, in a 5-sitting car the sound system has to be designed for everybody (children listening - parents talking).
Not the case in the Tesla for what I have heard.
Still... not a deal breaker for me. I chose for Premium Sound and I am eagerly awaiting my S85D. I am just hoping that the sound will improve.
I have the feeling that the sound has not been a priority these two last years for Tesla, because they have so much to work on to successfully launch such a disrupting car company.
I just hope the time will come for more attention to sound - hopefully by software means.
- - - Updated - - -
Typo : driveR speaker�
Mar 26, 2015
CHG-ON Nope. You're right. Though I don't experience the rear sound as any weaker than I would expect, being farther from the center of the sound stage. My issue is how incredibly difficult it is to balance. I completely agree with your comment regarding speakers being invisible. I have a '07 Acura RDX that has MUCH better staging. Everybody who gets in the car says it sounds great, no matter where they sit. Not ONE comment on my hyper expensive techno marvel car. The sound is way to easily located to one area of the car than another, which makes getting the immersive experience impossible for me. It sounds good. But flat and not alive. My hope is that the new CODEC might help solve this problem. And I have compared the exact same files in each car.
PS: the Dolby, which is awesome in my Acura, stinks in the MS. Very bad implementation and I am surprised that Dolby let it fly. They are (or at least were) known for being very particular about the end result of their technology when implemented.
I don't think it is a speaker placement issue. I think it's a software processing issue. But I have read of people replacing the rear door speakers only, and being happier with the sound.
I know that music is supposed to be in front of us, like a concert hall, but my preference is to be immersed from all sides. Yes, I am a heathen. In order to get something close to immersion, but not really, I have to go so far as to set my balance at 11 to the right and between 6-8 to the rear, depending upon track. Thereby essentially shutting dow the driver's side of the music. If I leave it balanced to the "center" all I really hear is the music coming from directly in front of me with practically no R-L staging at all. Almost sounds like mono, but not quite. The HiFi is the only disappointment I have with the car. Though I must say, I have never been impressed with stock systems. They always need work of some sort.
I will upgrade at some point.
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"The sound system hardware in the Model S will impress even the most discerning mu-sic lover.
Not!�
Mar 26, 2015
Cyclone I wanted to bring in some perspective from a non-audiophile. I understand what everyone has been saying about the shout from the front, but I did not have first-hand experience with it until today. Today I had the pleasure of driving another forum member's MS with the UHFS (his car does NOT have a pano roof in case that makes a difference). I did NOT experience a feeling of sound being biased to the front using the FM radio. I was surprised, expecting to distinctly feel like I was, as one poster said it, as a concert with the band in front of me rather than on-stage with the band around me. Sadly, there was a bit of traffic and I was in a rush to get the car back to him, so I didn't get a chance to see how he has the sound stage configured.
That said, I do think there is significant software processing going on here, which may get tweaked with the next firmware. When I raised the volume from 2 all the way to 11, there was an initial volume increase and greater immersion into the music, but it took roughly 2-3 seconds before the sound really filled the cabin. I don't know if I lucked out with what the local radio station was playing (Uptown Funk) or what, but that first 2-3 seconds I was expecting to be disappointed and, if I wasn't patient, would have felt the system is lackluster.
For now, this non-audiophile now wants to check the box for UFHS rather than standard audio!�
Mar 26, 2015
Andyw2100 I see no one has answered your questions.
I'm not sure what lossless 5.1 is, but it does play lossless FLAC files. Whether it is playing them correctly or not, I can't say. As for Blu Ray or DVD-A, the answer would be no. The system doesn't even have a CD player.�
Mar 27, 2015
Gizmotoy Did you happen to pay attention to the FM signal meter? On FM channels with HD radio complements, the transition between base FM and HD Radio sounds almost exactly as you describe it. If the signal degrades slightly you may lose lock on the HD audio and the car automatically reverts to plain FM, only to transition back when you can again get the HD version.�
Mar 27, 2015
Bencredible I have long thought the same thing -- the sound is not immersive. I also think it has some strange DSP/EQ settings applied.
In my 2004 Lexus RX330 we had amazing sound that felt like it enveloped you (before we blew out all of the speakers). In the Tesla we have pretty great sound from the front speakers, but very weak sound from the rear. I'm assuming that the rear of the car uses a lesser speaker system and/or the amp is able to drive the front speakers harder and/or they just configured it wrong.
I even question the overall tonal quality of the speakers and DSP as well. I think they have a lot of performance tuning to do with the audio. It is cute that the volume can go to 11, but when the quality just isn't there that fun little quirk doesn't matter much. One thing I have been meaning to do is a pink noise measurement to see how the car actually performs. Want to see the overall system from the drivers seat perspective and then adjust the sound to each of the 4 corners of the car and see how each quadrant does independently. I'm hoping that with this data I may be able to tweak the EQ and balance to such a point that it is closer to what I'm hoping for. Just need time to actually make that happen, and sadly time is one thing I don't have in abundance right now�
Mar 27, 2015
Cyclone I did not, but I can definitely check that the next time I see him. I did a test drive last week at a Tesla store in South Florida, and with the rep telling us about the various features and being my first time driving a MS (a P85D no less), I totally forgot to check the sound system. This time, I played around with it a bit, but didn't do too much for fear of messing with the settings of the owner. I will have to play around with it some more at a standstill so I can be sure what I checking and changing. I wanted to try pushing sound to the rears only to hear the difference, but I don't yet have enough familiarity to do so. It will come. Now the anxious wait till I get my MS!�
Mar 27, 2015
Pinot.Noir Thanks for the answer. Disappointing that it lacks a CD/DVD player. It would've been nice to be able to listen to 5.1 DVD-A and Blu-Ray Audio discs on the road. I never have the time to listen to much of my collection at home.�
Mar 27, 2015
CHG-ON I would recommend testing with another source aside from FM. OTA FM is low quality and FMHD is too compressed. Trying a more lossless format will allow you to better gauge the quality. Though, that being said, I still believe the system is lacking what it could with improved processing, speakers and perhaps more or cleaner power. eg: what Reus has been able to accomplish with their upgrade.�
Mar 29, 2015
Khatsalano S85D with premium sound package delivered in February 2015. Same issue ... rear volume is weak, but even weaker when you adjust fader towards the back.
- K�
Mar 30, 2015
David100 Any improvements with 6.2 ?�
Mar 30, 2015
J1mbo
FWIW, there is a codec issue in 6.1 (and previous versions) which causes USB (mp3) music to literally skip a beat, mid-track. I thought it was a previously-unknown production error with the track the first time I heard it, but it has happened many times since. It is not manually reproducable - when going back again to the same part of the track, it plays perfectly.
I have the UHFS and it is - by far - the best OEM set up I have heard.
As mentioned above, make sure that Dolby is off.
Also, try to use a flat (0) EQ profile. The system will have been optimized for this.
Finally, the sub isn't powerful / subtle enough to be adequate with volume < 4, so a small bump in the low EQ can help a lot if you listen to bass-heavy music but still want to talk to your passengers...�
Mar 30, 2015
Andyw2100 I'm glad to hear you say this. I'm pretty sure this is true of FLAC files as well. I thought I was crazy and not hearing things correctly, as I've also experienced this. A few times I've gone back to try to see if I could hear it again on the recording, and as you say, the recording would play perfectly the next time.
Do you have any reason to believe the issue is limited to MP3 files, and does not exist with FLAC files, and that I'm still just nuts, or am I likely to be experiencing the same thing that you've experienced?
Thanks!�
Mar 30, 2015
J1mbo Not tested FLAC, as only got 320k MP3 in the car, but would not be surprised if this applies to multiple formats.�
Mar 30, 2015
hiroshiy Overall I agree with OP that the rear is weak. The whole balance and quality of UHFS sound is acceptable to me as an in-car audio system. I'm sort of audiophile with approx $10K home audio.
The thing I can't accept is skipping some of sound data, as J1mbo pointed out. Really annoying. Reproduce 100% on almost every track.�
Mar 30, 2015
Andyw2100 Hello All,
I just got my P85D last week. I too ordered the upgraded sound system for $2,500.00 more. I selected every option available (except the Cold weather package, as I live in Houston Texas). I always do this with any car I own, I think it helps with resale in the future. Since I never owned a tesla with the standard sound system I cannot compare. Does the standard sound system come with all the same apps? IE what is the main difference in the 2? The reason I ask is I also am sorely disappointed in the sound system. I do know that there is a sever lack of power (AMP Wattage) and I understand this because POWER takes power. Most mega watt system need a 00 cable ran to them. If you put a 1,000 watt amplifier in this car, you would be lucky to get to the end of your driveway. Another very SORE spot with me is the lack of automatic volume control. MOST cars now days (at a lot lower prices) have that ability. I doubt if you will ever get a electric car to have super sound. But at least the volume could go up as speed increases, AND down as speed decreases.
Larry�
1/1/2015
guest I don't notice this nearly as often as "almost every track" but perhaps I'm just not as observant. In any case, if this is not corrected in 6.2, anyone experiencing this should make sure to write to Tesla about it, as it is possible they don't know the issue exists.�
Mar 30, 2015
Stoneymonster I agree, the sound system in my new P85D really sucks.
My other car is a Bentley Flying Spur Speed, with the Naim $10K, 1,500 watt, 15 speakers sound system.
I have never found ANY system that compares to it, even after market setups.
So that surely biases my opinion, but at least they could have put auto-volume control on it.
Larry
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Are you SURE the premium sound system has MASSIVE wattage???
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Are you sure there is MASSIVE wattage?�
Mar 30, 2015
Sigma4Life My 85D doesn't fly nearly as well as my Gulfstream, either :wink:�
Mar 30, 2015
krisg81 I believe automatic volume increase with speed was added in firmware 6.1. You can't control now much it increases though.�
Mar 30, 2015
krisg81
Yes, the premium sound compared to my Gulfstream G650 private jet and 105ft Mega Yacht is not good at all. #FirstWorldProblems�
Mar 30, 2015
EarlyAdopter LOL dude I swear I didn't copy your post.. too funny�
Mar 30, 2015
gpetti Your math is off by a couple orders of magnitude.
A 1,000W system, or 1kW, running full blast for an hour would use 1kWh. 1kWh is only about 3 miles of range.
You'd need to put a 100,000 watt amplifier in this car to drain the main battery enough to put getting down the driveway at risk.�
Mar 30, 2015
Stoneymonster Sweeeeet! That would be one rocking ride down the driveway!�
Mar 30, 2015
gpetti Look I know many of us have our disagreements about Tesla, but can't we all agree that unless we can melt birds with our stereo, it's just not worth owning?�
Mar 30, 2015
Galve2000 I don't remember if that was the case but bearing in mind how quiet this car is, I've never even thought about this feature. I just set a volume and forget. I have no conscious recollection of having to turn up volume when at highway speed. I guess if the tire noise was really aggressive? Other than that, if we had a wind speed measurement that might have some bearing on it. I've had this feature in a few cars before but this is one I have never missed.�
Mar 30, 2015
thegruf I think most many of us have an issue with the price of the UHFS upgrade. $2,500 can go a pretty long way in the aftermarket car audio world.
If the UHFS package was more reasonably priced (say around $1,000) you wouldn't be getting quite as many posts about "disappointment " b/c the upgrade price is more reasonable/marginal. as it stands, the upgrade is not really a great value.�
Mar 30, 2015
Cyclone Not sure I agree with the above. Seems to me the UHFS is good rather than excellent and significantly better than standard.
However $2500 is nowhere near as costly as some high end systems in cars.
And could you get better value with aftermarket, yes of course - as is pretty much always the case with any manufacturer.
I am still interested to hear (pun-sorry) whether the "updated Codec" in 6.2 makes an observable difference, which it may well do as many comments refer to what I summarize as an an "over-processed" nature to the SQ, which is typical of average DSP coding. Hopefully not long to release now.�
Mar 30, 2015
KJennerator The "downside" I've seen is that the threads that I've read about aftermarket stereos are owners who got upgrades from the UHFS system, rather than the standard system. I have no problem spending $2,500 on a nice aftermarket system, but would want to do that from the standard system. $5k is too much for me to spend on the sound system alone. As a background, every car I have previously owned have had stock systems.�
Mar 31, 2015
CHG-ON I find that if you turn off the Dolby Setting it helps with this significantly. Also, fun fact, if you bluetooth a tablet or phone, etc... and watch a movie on it, the car will actually work with full surround sound. I did this on a long trip from Boston to Austin while sleeping in the back. So sick to have full surround functionality in the car.
�
Apr 1, 2015
Trustno1 Now that is cool.�
Apr 2, 2015
gpetti David100
Sorry for not getting back to you earlier. I got my P85D last monday, but since I drove it right to my detailer for ceramic pro coating I didnt have much time to play with it before today.
I did some quick testing on the sound today, and I think my rear hatch speakers play fairly loud, but they dont play lower frequencies very good. Fading all backwards results in somewhat poor sound quality since you wont get much midbass (80-400hz or so)
Its worth noting that I havent really played much yet, so the speakers isnt properly broken in, but I think this is a general problem if you fade the sound all to the rear.
However I'm very happy with the sound system on my D overall, I think it plays better than my old P85. I think a large portion of this is thanks to the better sound proofening in the newer cars. I find that there is far less unwanted resonances and unwanted ratteling/noise compared to the old car. The higher frequencies also sounds crisper. Not sure this is because changes in the software, or hardware though.�
1/1/2015
guest Since getting 6.2 I have been observing the sound carefully and to be honest my initial feeling was that it was worse. Primarily I was listening to slacker at the time but I couldn't really put my finger on why. I've since tried playing music on a USB thumb drive using music copied from iTunes. My impression now, ratified by my son the musician, is that it might be better, and moving the fade rearwards has more of the effect described by the OP. Very subjective so interested to hear if others feel the same.�
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