Mar 11, 2016
MiddKid Over the past 3 years I've found these boards to be ridiculously valuable...in purchasing my Model S and now researching a Model X. I generally find the most value to come from those who share their real life experiences. Granted, I like a "white vs pearl" thread as much as the next guy, but those deep real life stories resonate the most. So I thought I'd share my journey here...not intended to incite any feedback, just want to share it for others to consider in their journey. Ok, ok...it's a bit of therapy for me too.
First of all, let's start with the facts. We're a young family (in our 30s) with three daughters (10, 8, and 5). Prior to hearing the word "Tesla" for the first time, our vehicle stable in the garage consisted of a 2008 Sequoia and a 2010 Prius. Very exciting stuff right there.
I won't recap the Model S journey but I purchased a P85 two years ago in March 2014. It quickly replaced the Sequoia as our go-to everyday family car and has even pitched in on numerous road trips (with my proudest moment being a Seattle -> Eugene, OR trip one spring break with our family of 5, my brother-in-law, and the dog...and all the spring break luggage!!!). The Sequoia is still critical as our outdoor adventure vehicle (skiing, biking, camping, etc).
Despite paying 2x+ for the MS versus any other car I've ever owned I have few regrets. I'm a complete Tesla fanboy. The MS has passed 30K miles over the past 2 years and has been rock solid. Only regret is that I added the "P" at the last minute. Sure, those "roller coaster" launches (as my kids call them) are cool, but it wears off and in retrospect I wouldn't go "P" again. Not worth the up-charge for us.
So we find ourselves facing a few facts:
- Model S: My youngest two are growing out of the rear-facing seats (plus, they actually dislike sitting back there now) so we're losing 2 seats of capacity. Also, I have the Resale Value Guarantee (RVG) which comes up in March 2017. Oh, one more weird quirk that I've seen referenced here before...my 8 year old very rarely gets car sick in the Sequoia. In the Model S she gets car sick all the time. It's become almost a guarantee on most drives in excess of 15 minutes. Odd.
- Sequoia: Coming up on 9 years of ownership, we've driven this thing hard. It's starting to show the wear. While it has been mechanically rock solid it's time for a change. We recently moved to a more rural area and my wife finds herself filling up the gas tank twice (and sometimes three times) a week. Plus, she is very interested in many of the new safety systems on new vehicles.
Our new goals are:
- Get additional seating back by upgrading the Model S to a Model X since the youngest are growing out of the jump seats
- With the resale values of the pre-autopilot MSs dropping, take advantage of the Resale Value Guarantee in March of 2017
- Replace the Sequoia with a newer, more fuel-efficient vehicle
So back in January we started to do some research and our thought process went as follows:
Option 1: Replace the Sequoia with a Model X. Keep the Model S. All Tesla!
This option died a quick death. As much as I wanted to will (and hack) the Model X to take over the "utility" from the Sequoia it was quickly obvious that wasn't happening. We ski virtually every weekend in the winter. Yes, there are hitch mount ski racks but they are a pain to use and not great for your equipment. In the Summer it's not crazy for our Sequoia to have 5 bikes on the rear hitch and a cargo box on top. We're extremely active outdoors and while the MX works great for a day hike, for anything with more cargo (+5 kids and a dog) the Model X just becomes a pain in the behind. Ski trip to Whistler a few weeks ago...skis/poles/boots in the roof box, clothes/groceries in the back of the Sequoia. So easy. No dealing with skis on the back (and taking them off to Supercharge). No looking into hacking a cargo box to the roof using suction (and loosing a door). Realization...this family still needs a traditional SUV/cargo hauler. Next option:
Option 2: We got our invite to the Meet Model X event in late February. Before this event I got really amped on a new plan...let's just swap out the MS now (trade-in value is still higher than my RVG) with a MX, live with it for a while, then trade in the Sequoia for either a basic SUV or something pre-owned for those rare times we needed it. Hope here was that the MX would give us more utility than the MS and we could minimize the ICE SUV need. Unfortunately our Meet Model X experience did the opposite of what Tesla was hoping. I've requested my $5K to be refunded. While I covered this in detail in the Meet X event thread, in short:
- We thought for sure we'd go 7 seats to retain the utility of our current 7 seat MS. We hated the 7 seat model. Third row felt way too claustrophobic for us. Much preferred the airy-ness and legroom of the 6-seat (plus I could fit a pair of skis down the middle if I was going skiing with less than my full family). Found ourselves a bit bummed that we'd be down seating for only 6 though (no more driving the family and in-laws together like we do today in the MS).
- While we liked the 6 seat version better, still some quirks. My wife felt like she was still slammed up against the doors despite having room in the middle (obvious that they just removed the middle seat). No arm rests.
- The quality problems on the vehicles at the event were significant. Second row seats that didn't work. Second row seat that squeaked loudly. Falcon Wing Door that had to be closed 4 times before it registered as closed. Frunk that required two employees to close. This scared us.
It has been a few weeks since that test drive and our conclusions are:
- Unlike the no-compromise MS, we're making compromises on the MX
- We love our MS so much, that we have faith that given time Tesla will address the quality issues
- We also hope that given some time Tesla will make some design tweaks to address those compromises (folding seats, arm rests, etc).
- Bottom line for me: I'm not trading a sedan (MS) for a much higher utility SUV (MX). It's an SUV that utility-wise gets me one additional seat (assuming 6-seat version) and some compromised utility (e.g. can put a roofbox on my MS, but not a MX).
Our current Option 3:
- Wait on the MX
- Request deposit refund (already done)
- Hope that over the next year there are design/utility tweaks
- As I approach next March (my two youngest will be grown out of the jump seats by then), evaluate where the RVG sits versus trade-in values. Assuming the RVG is a good deal (it's looking like it will be), execute the RVG and get a MX.
- In the interim, knowing that an ICE SUV is a big part of our family for the near future even post-MX, I have no problem spending a bit more on an SUV upgrade for my wife. Currently very interested in the Plug-In Hybrid T8 version of the Volvo XC90. Some concerns about reliability, but zero concerns about utility. Good cargo area, can put a box on top, bike rack on back, good to go. Plus the plug-in electric-only range will do wonders for my wife's "around town" driving during the week.
Whew. See, told you...typing that was therapy! I don't have many friends who would financially consider the XC90 let alone a MX. So this conversation has not been had outside my wife and me! I feel better. I'll wave to all you lucky MX owners from my MS for the next 12 months... ;-)�
Mar 11, 2016
ohmman Nice breakdown, MiddKid, and totally reasonable. We're replacing our Odyssey with the MX, and only because we want to be an electric household. If I had three kids, or if we were as active outdoors as you guys were, it probably would have been a tougher move.
I believe the MX will become a more versatile vehicle over the next year. I'm guessing your patience will pay off.
Thanks for sharing..�
Mar 11, 2016
leh22a Funny. I personally saw the XC90 at the auto show lately and was extremely disappointed in the 3rd row seats. I sat in the rear seats and thought the X was significantly roomier. It may appear claustrophobic since there are less Windows for light and less head and shoulder room, but the actual seat in the X I felt was better. My opinion. Of course you highlight many aspects of the X that just don't work for you. I'm just comparing the third row which I'm picky about. In the end, I would say the X has the best third row for a mid sized SUV. It's no Ford Expedition or other full sized SUV but definitely good if not the best for its class size.�
Mar 11, 2016
bredi Nice feedback and perspective.
Isn't the Sequoia a much, much larger SUV than the X? The X (other than roof cargo) would appear to have more storage and room than the Volvo though?�
Mar 12, 2016
mkjayakumar Seats that don't move, door that don't close properly.. a recurring theme I have read over and over again in these forums.
Very sad. Something that was completely predictable and indeed was predicted by many.
For those that say, give Tesla some time, I don't think Tesla has a lot of time to fix these issues before the X loses credibility and sales. One damning report from Motor Trend, Car & driver or worse Consumer Reports will seal its fate.�
Mar 12, 2016
ABCCBA 
As you can see in my signature, we cancelled our MX P90D and just bought the XC90 T8 Inscription PHEV (Sticker price was $76,000). We had the pleasure of seeing three MX in private owner's hands. I was not pleased with the fit & finish of the MX and the fact that the 2nd row seats do not fold. So, we cancelled. We found the XC90 T8 Inscription PHEV and it is wonderful All seats fold down. it even has AutoSteer at low speed driving, parallel parking, perpendicular parking. As to the seats, that are incredible. From the front to the third row, they are far superior than the MX. And, as far as third row roominess, it is not as convenient to get into as the MX with the FWD, but there is greater legroom and because the second row backs are not as high as the MX, you don't feel couped in. The biggest disadvantage of the XC90 T8 is the battery. It is only a 9KWh. So, we are getting 18 miles of all electric before it goes into hybrid. However, where we live, in the past four days, we have averaged 72 empg. Finally, the XC90 has 400HP and 439 ft lb of torque.
Maybe in a couple years, we will consider switching over to all electric for the SUV. In the mean time, we saved almost $60,000 between the Vovlvo and the MX, so I am looking for a used MS for myself, now.
�
Mar 12, 2016
Roamer The XC90 looks like a main battle tank. If it works for you enjoy. We went Tesla from Nissan Leafs because the Leaf battery range was so low. I can't imagine dropping to 18 miles. That would be a giant step backwards for us.
We charge with solar at home so battery range was our number one criteria.�
Mar 12, 2016
ankitmishra I think I read somewhere that hybrid XC90 was less powerful than ICE XC90. Why not buy full ICE version? 18 miles is pretty less IMHO. It might reduce more with time. Looks like it has heavy drag coefficient too. X had to taper at end to have low drag coefficient. That makes less headroom for 3 Rd row. Not trying to criticize any person's decision here.�
Mar 12, 2016
aesculus MidKid: Good summary. I certainly think you need to wait for the Model X V2 if you have the time. Sounds like the refinements in the quality issues that you experienced will help there but you will still need folding seats, even as a daily driver. And unfortunately it sounds like your family has outgrown the Model S.
Your story of your daughters nauseousness scares me a bit. I get sea sick looking at pictures of boats and often if I am not driving I can get motion sickness too. Usually its the fault of the driver but some cars rock a lot. I am surprised the Model S seems to be a culprit. She is not getting sick while driving in the rear facing seat only? How does she do riding up in the front seat?
I also don't think a Tesla SUV will ever replace your Sequoia, but it could the MS. Your needs for a large family, tons of gear and the flexibility of roof racks etc put you in a different category than the Model X can (will ever?) do.�
Mar 12, 2016
ohmman If you have short daily drives (we drive 10 mile roundtrips from the house 3-4x a day), I can see it working out. Likewise if someone works 10-15 miles from home - charge at home, charge at work.. most of your driving will be electric.
I support any decision that limits the amount of fuel consumed, so giving up a little power for the benefit of electric transport is a win in my book.�
Mar 12, 2016
Evbwcaer I'll probably get ridiculed here, but I would of waited for a Chrysler Town and Country PHEV. It is probably better than the Volvo in every utility category, except towing and AWD, for less $$. Also, almost double the EV range and a full functional 3rd row.�
Mar 12, 2016
Dalia You're not alone in this. I've had 3 incidents of throwing up and they always say that they get car sick. But I have to say, they don't have the same feeling in the MX. In the 5 days since we have had the MX, the kids don't have the same feeling. My two older girls (12 and 10) actually like to sit in the third row. It's a lot roomier, but great feedback. I'm sure it will definitely help people.�
Mar 12, 2016
pvogel I can suggest a possible source of the carsickness. I've noticed some people *cannot* be steady on the accelerator. Because of the instant torque and the regen braking, not being steady creates a fairly consistent 'rocking' sensation for the ears that don't match with what the eyes see. An eye/ear mismatch (your balance system is in your ears) is the cause of virtually all motion sickness
Does it happen when you are in cruise control?
Does it happen if you turn your regen mode to soft?�
Mar 12, 2016
Roamer It does take a little practice and experience to not over accelerate and over regen. Most people are used to under powered cars and need time to adjust to the instant power and learn not to pull off the accelerator quickly.
it is a new experience to learn to not dump the accelerator pedal when you have a lifetime of pulling off and coasting to relearn. I now have the opposite problem, when I drive an ICE and always wonder why the car is not slowing when I ease up on the accelerator pedal. It is always a little disconcerting when an ICE car does not regen brake.
Three years of driving Teslas and now I absolutly hate driving jerky ICE cars. It is torture to battle one down the road. Feels like Fred Flintstone is not working his feet properly.�
Mar 12, 2016
ohmman MiddKid has 30k miles on his 2 year old MS. I'm guessing he's got the hang of it. I agree, though - when I allow friends to drive my Tesla, the first few miles are a heaving, surging mess.
My son can't handle the far back, nor can he handle reading in the back seat for long. You definitely need the visible feedback from your surroundings.�
Mar 12, 2016
beths11 As a kid who was car sick on any trip over 20minutes, my guess is the ability to see the outside surroundings from the X makes the difference. The S sits low and it is not so easy to see the outside. I think it's the same kind of effect that makes people car sick when reading in the car. If I could sit in the front seat and see out the windshield I was fine. Most of the time I was given a dose of Dramamine before we left and put in the back of the station wagon. That worked too. :smile:�
Mar 12, 2016
ABCCBA Actually, the T8 Dual Motor PHEV has 400 HP and 493 ft. lbs. of torque. 0-60 in 5.3 sec. The ICE only has 293 HP. The T8 PHEV is rated for e54 mpg. With our driving style so far this week, we are at e72mpg.�
Mar 12, 2016
Johan I have 3 kids, a Model S and a Volvo (XC70 diesel - boho). And I'm not cancelling my X reservation, but I am going to sell the S (boho).�
Mar 12, 2016
mikevbf Can someone explain to me what e72mpg is in real world gas and electricity?�
Mar 12, 2016
GSP I was thinking the same thing. The Pacifica has lots of passenger and cargo space, is supposed to have a much stiffer and quieter structure, and is eligible for the full $7500 tax credit (16 kWh battery). The only space taken by the electric powertrain is the battery taking the below floor storage for the stow-n-go second row seats. The seats can still be removed if you do need the entire space for cargo.
GSP�
Mar 12, 2016
Johan It's hard because a regular MPG to gallons per miles curve would not be linear, and when you're calculating the eMPG you have to assume this same anlierity to create this "equivalent" and actually rather artificial quantity. So that a LEAF that consumes 300 Wh/mile gets 112 MPG-e, while a Model S85 that consumes 360 Wh/mile gets 89 MPG-e while a RAV4 EV (very anaerodynamic) uses 440 Wh/mile and gets 76 MPG-e. So e72mpg is likely above 450 Wh/mile.�
Mar 12, 2016
ABCCBA mikevbf, I don't know the technical definition of 'empg'. I guess I should learn that, too. Shown in a screenshot from the mobile app for our smartphones, for a longer trip that we took yesterday looked like for electricity and gas consumption.
�
Mar 12, 2016
ankitmishra @Mike
Oh, I will take your word for it. I don't know where I read that or did I just felt that I read that. Upon checking I found that electric motor might stop after battery runs out i.e in 18 miles. Is the PHEV still better in power than ICE when that happens? Again, just curious. My knowledge is non existent in this matter.�
Mar 12, 2016
elguapo Good thoughts MidKidd. All make sense. I don't think the X could ever replace a Sequoia with respect to storage. Even if the X had fold flat second row, Sequoia is just much bigger. Tough comparison.
Volvo may be a better comparison, but at the end of the day, a Tesla can't compare to anything else and most buyers will have to make a compromise somewhere. For example, I can't stand the infotainment systems on Mercedes, BMW, Audi and Volvo and don't like the cockpits. Since that's where I spend most of my time, I put a lot of weight on that, as trivial as it may be to others.
I can't wait for my X, but from a utility perspective, I think of it more like a slightly bigger CRV or an MDX...Regardless, it is always helpful to have a good conversation around what people are willing to compromise on and why.�
Mar 12, 2016
ABCCBA We have not had the battery completely run out of power, as the vehicle has regenerative capabilities: Two levels of brake regren, regen from the ICE and regen from the starter/generator. There are seven power selections from 'Pure' all electric to 'Save' no electric, just regen. The ICE engine is rated at 24 mpg and is the same 293 HP engine as the standard ICE. There is a lot to learn. It is definitely not an all electric Model X, but we were uncomfortable with a MX at this point in time and the wife is very happy with the Volvo, so I am very happy - Happy Wife, Happy Life. I am narrowing down my selection for a late model MS Dual Motor car, and I suspect it will be overwhelming to learn and drive.�
Mar 12, 2016
Johan Wait, you drive more than 12 hours per day on average every day?�
Mar 12, 2016
ankitmishra Woah! Yeah, too much to learn here. I will just take your word for it. Enjoy! @Mike�
Mar 12, 2016
Roamer After reading all the selections and setting you listed above you will find the S or X to be incredibly simple. Once you go full EV it dramatically simplifies everything. I find it almost impossible to comprehend all the settings on my daughters Lexus GX 460 Luxury model. The number of settings and switches is mind numbing. One thing I really enjoy about the Tesla design is how automated everything is. The computer knows what to do and just does it for you.�
Mar 12, 2016
mikevbf I come from a background of driving just a regular Highlander Hybrid. Of course I would be over joyed to get 86.9 mpg in my vehicle. What I have more trouble assessing is the 7kWH - 1.1kWh regen in addition to the gas to travel 19.3 miles. Is it as simple as that is about $1 of electricity which is about half a gallon of gas today which mean it took about .7 gallons of gas to go 19.3 miles which is about 26.7 mpg which is closer to what I get in my Highlander Hybrid. I am sure I made an error somewhere. Please help me get my head around it all you EV drivers.
�
Mar 12, 2016
CarlK As someone who has owned a first gen 93' Ford Explorer and first gen 02' MDX and rode in my lunch partner's Cayenne GTS often I think going back to any ICE SUV is like going back to live in the cave for me. As for 3rd row seat spaciousness let's be real I don't think you can get anything better than the X from a garageable SUV.�
Mar 12, 2016
ABCCBA mikevbf - I had not done the math, but will be glad to share in the experiment. Our energy cost here is about $0.12/kwh. Our gasoline is about $1.75/gal. If the trip used 7.0KWh, but regenerated 1.1KWH, the Net Energy was 5.9KWh * $0.12 =$0.71 in electricity. The vehicle used 0.2 gallons @ $1.75 = $0.35. Total cost was $1.06 for 19.3 miles. $1.75/$1.06 * 19.3 = 31.8 empg for this trip. This vehicle functions as both a hybrid and a PEV. Meaning, the ICE can recharge the battery while driving, if the power selector is set to do so. Additionally, there is a Plug-In Level 2 port that the battery can be recharged from the electrical outlet at home, thus not use the ICE to recharge. Thus, since most everything we do is within 5 miles of the house, we can run on all electric 'Pure EV' mode and never fire up the ICE. I have not done a full battery test of the 18 mile range to see what the eMPG rating is. It will be fascinating, when we do a drive like that to see how it compares to the energy consumption of the MS or MX. But again, it seems to be rather high because in the four days that we have driven it, the eMPG average is 72. If anything, this is a good primer to learn how to be extremely energy efficient in driving so that when we do go all electric, we might be able to get rated mileage or more.�
Mar 12, 2016
proven It sounds like for your purposes the current Model X doesn't make sense. We're switching from a minivan, have two kids instead of three, and don't haul big stuff around very often--for us the X fits very well. I don't really see the X as a true SUV. It's more of a small SUV/Crossover that competes with minivans and CUV's.�
Mar 12, 2016
CarlK No offense but i think the plug-in hybrid is mostly a scam when the company could not come up with a compelling pure BEV. A lot of people in CA bought Prius plug-in for the sole reason that they can get an HOV sticker. With the short battery range everyone knows pretty much all Prius in the HOV lane are running on ICE and emit toxic gas just like ICE cars next to them. To me PHEV= ICE there is no other way around it. Just get an ICE if BEV is not for you instead of that posuer PHEV.�
Mar 12, 2016
Roamer Personally I find the whole eMPG to be a little silly. It is a made up rating so people can still gas think when they EV.
My math is much simpler. When I drive my Tesla it costs just over one cent a mile when charged with my surplus solar ( I can sell the surplus for 3.4 cents a kWh). If I charge with retail electricity it costs a little over three cents a mile. If I were to drive my BMW at 18 MPG it costs me 16 cents a mile, buying premium in Southern California. A little less in other places. So my comparison is zero to one cent a mile verses 16 cents a mile.
And best of all my energy cost per mile when traveling is zero.
So I think energy cost per mile is much more useful than a government made up formula to try to equate kWhs to MPG. I don't really care what that number is. What has meaning to me is the cost of energy per mile and how clean that energy is.
So until people adapt to a new way I guess a meaningless conversion to an eMPG guess is the best we can do. It does work for people trying to sell hybrids to people used to buying gas.
- - - Updated - - -
Carlk, Arizona limited the number of clean air plates available for hybrids so we don't have that problem in Arizona. Clean Air plates that allow car pool access are unlimited for pure EV. Arizona figured out the limited range hybrids don't do much to reduce emissions out on the freeway so they stopped issuing the clean air car pool plates for them. If it has a smokestack it should not get a clean air plate or ugly California sticker.�
Mar 12, 2016
calisnow As a newly minted Tesla 70D owner (totally in love btw) I have to agree with the OP's perspective. I also own a 2004 Infiniti QX56 14 mpg battle tank with 230K miles that I would love to replace. However if I were you, OP, I'd hold on to your Sequoia a bit longer and wait for a big ICE SUV with a full autopilot system like Tesla has. That would be the SUV which makes me replace my Infiniti - until I can get an autopilot as capable as my Tesla's in another SUV I'm not replacing the Infiniti - after experiencing autopilot I will never purchase another vehicle without one. If you can wait just a bit longer and keep using your Sequoia you should be able to get an autopilot in an ICE SUV and happily use it for the next 9/10 years or however long you plan to keep it.
I'm still considering an X for a 2nd Tesla but my interest is fading and I will probably end up with a second Model S.�
Mar 12, 2016
CarlK CA issues unlimited numbers of white stickers for pure BEV/FCV and limited numbers of green stickers for cars like Prius plug-in. However legislature just opened up more green stickers recently so essentially everyone who wants one will get one. The net effect has nothing to do with emissions. It does help sell those cars few would have spent $5000 extra for though. I just call that Prius sticker. BTW CA also gives FCV a real good deal in the clean vehicle rebate with high amount and no income limitation. Toyota must have hired some real good lobbyists.�
Mar 12, 2016
rdalcanto @MikeJr74 - You have to get what works for family. After 3 years in a Model S (the last year in a P85D with autopilot), you could not PAY me to get into a PHEV of any kind. I hate gas stations, and having to get gas is incredibly inconvenient. I also can't stand transmissions in ICE vehicles anymore. A Porsche 911S feels slow to respond to the throttle now. I can't imagine a giant Volvo. Compared to an X, the Volvo will feel like a pig. We are disappointed the second row doesn't fold flat, but we will make it work, because there is NO WAY we are getting any SUV other than a full EV. I also use autopilot all the time now, and if a vehicle can't drive itself 90+% of the time, I'm not interested.�
Mar 14, 2016
MiddKid Wow...I post late Friday then go skiing on Saturday and BAM! Lots of great discussion! I love this community. Thought I'd address a few of the themes:
- A lot of people mention that you can't compare a Sequoia to Model X which I totally agree with. BUT...we're actually downsizing a bit which is why we're looking at the XC90. And I'd argue that Tesla would put the MX up against the XC90. And this, for us, is where the "Utility" just falls apart. Something as simple as putting a roof box on the roof would give the MX so much more utility. But the FaWD make that difficult. Having seats that fold would give more utility. But they don't. Last night we took the whole family back to ride in an XC90 and the cabin is so much more comfortable for our family than the MX. Everything feels more refined and is luxurious with a heavy dose of utility. Elon may think his second row seats look beautiful but I'll take the XC90 all day long. More importantly I could actually see my two daughters clearly in the 3rd row rather than looking at tall headrests.
- @MikeJr74 Love that XC90! Sounds like we found ourselves in the same situation!
- On why go with the PHEV versus the pure ICE: My wife is an around the town driver and we think with mid-day plug-ins she can get a ton of range out of the 17 mile battery. We'll pay the premium for the convenience and the good of the environment.
- For those who say "I'll never buy a hybrid or ICE again!!!" While I conceptually agree with you, the reality is if you want the utility we are looking for, Tesla doesn't offer it.
- Regarding car sickness...first of all, yes, I know how to drive my MS after 30K miles. I'm not driving in a jerky manner. But it's amazing how often she gets car sick. This weekend is a great example...Saturday drove over an hour skiing in the Sequoia and she not only didn't get car sick, the road is windy and she even read a book most of the way! The next day we drove to the next town over mostly on highway and after 15 minutes her "tummy hurt." And she was sitting in the middle seat of the back row (not rear facing). I never thought much about it until I saw other references on the MS forum about it. Good to hear that some people have had success with the MX! Hopeful!
So yesterday we decided to put a deposit on an XC90. Then as I mentioned when my MS RVG comes up early next year we'll revisit replacing the MS with the MX. Great discussion all!�
Mar 14, 2016
ABCCBA @MiddKid Congratulations. The wife loves hers more each day. She is learning the different power modes and also how to drive a car with regen. She is increasing the range of the battery as she learns.
I just bought a used 2015 MS 85D today! Our first Tesla.
So, by cancelling our MX P90D, we each got vehicles, a ton of combined people and cargo carrying capability AND stayed just under what it would have cost us for the MX. I am thrilled.
End result, we turned a poor experience with the MX, into a positive and motivating experience.
Best wishes with your XC90 T8. PM me some pics when you get it.
Mike@MiddKid�
Mar 14, 2016
Superloud Thank you Middkid and Mike. This thread is super helpful and has me taking a closer look at the xc90.
Do either of you feel like the 2L four banger which is super/turbo charged up to the max is a little undersized for the almost 5000lb vehicle? Both in terms of acceleration/towing/etc power but also the feeling that an engine that small can't possibly stand the test of time in such a big car?
Some of the reviews I've read allude to this. But they do tent to say the T8 really helps drive ability. Is that your impression? I've read that the ICE only version has lots of lag because acceleration always needs to be preceded by a downshift to build boost. Is that concern eliminated in the T8? Even at highway speeds?�
Mar 15, 2016
mikevbf Anyone who is considering something other than the MX, should also consider the upcoming Pacifica PHEV minivan which has a much larger battery than the Volvo and was designed to be driven in all electric for its 30 mile range before using gas engine.
2017 Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid: More Details On 30-Mile Plug-In
Mikejr74 how is the performance of the Volvo when it is in all electric mode?�
Mar 15, 2016
ohmman Yes, that was mentioned upthread but referred to as the "Town and Country", which has been rebranded Pacifica.
I absolutely love the functionality of that thing. If it every becomes a BEV with a charging network and extended range... sigh. Well, someday.�
Mar 15, 2016
ABCCBA @mikevbf to give you a direct answer, it is very good and getting better as we learn the systems.
Background: the XC90 is the wife's vehicle, so my driving of it is very limited. However, I have the Volvo app to review each trips data. My wife has never driven a hybrid or bev, so I am teaching her the nuances since I have had a hybrid for a couple years. She has a very predictable routine, so it affords us to do comparative analysis of the same routes with different driving modes.
Unless the vehicle is placed in 'Save' mode, it always drives on battery first. It is only when the driver needs extra acceleration or the battery drains significantly that the ICE kicks in. There is a gauge that is very similar to a tach. It displays the energy available from the battery and the instantaneous energy being used like a tach needle. Only when the energy demand exceeds the battery, does the ICE turn on.
Each of the driving modes basically shift the energy point where the ICE kicks in. For example, 'Save' is pretty much all ICE and 'Pure' is all battery unless you may the accelerator.
The acceleration from the rwd electric motor is very acceptable for normal driving. We live off of a stretch of road where the speed limit in 55mph. There is no issue accelerating up to the speed limit. Nor, is there any issue of lagging traffic when starting from a stop at a traffic light.
Range is as rated and exceeds the 17 miles that Volvo states. There is a route that she drives that is 19 miles one way. So, we have been using this as a test for battery range. She has now exceeded 19 miles on the battery charge. It has been because of modifying her driving style. Early on, she drove at 64mph with cruise control like she did with her old ICE. The ICE had to kick in after a little over 17 miles.
I had her modify her driving style to drive without cruise control and let the vehicle roll more frequently, while still maintaining her normal speed. That helped by regenerating significantly more energy than cruise control did. That got her to the 19 mile mark with no remaining battery, so hybrid had to kick in on the return trip. So, 100% battery for 19 miles, hybrid for the return and 25mpg ICE.
Then, I had her reduce her speed from 64mph to 55mph. I asked her how the trip was and she responded 'it took longer than normal'. lol. Anyway, she travelled all 19 miles on 100% battery. On the return, she still had battery energy to increase the return trip to 32 mpg.
So far, she LOVES the comfort of the XC90 as well as the fact that the 2nd and 3rd row seats fold flat for carrying cargo.
I have so far only spoken about the longer route she makes. But, most of the time she stays within a 7 mile radius of the house. So, a majority of her driving has been 100% battery and 0% ICE. She is used to driving an Infiniti FX35 for the last 8+ years. She says the drive is more comfortable in the Volvo and the all battery driving around town is virtually identical.
As to Power, when you decide to go, It Goes! 400 HP and 493 ft lbs of torque is remarkable for a 7 passenger SUV.
I see why this is the 2016 Truck of the Year. Safety, Comfort, Energy Efficiency, Fit and Finish and Power are remarkable.�
Mar 15, 2016
ABCCBA @mikevbf the Pacifica has 260 HP hybrid system. The Volvo is 400HP hybrid system. The ICE alone, in the Volvo, is 290 HP and rated 24mpg.�
Mar 15, 2016
mikevbf Thanks for the explanation. Sounds like you really like it and are finding ways to reduce your gas consumption by fitting it to how your wife drives . Glad to hear the Volvo is working so well for you and the wife.�
Mar 15, 2016
Superloud Does the Volvo give you any permanent stats on how much ICE vs Eectric miles you've driven?
It's almost like there should be an odometer for electric only miles. Then perhaps a regular odometer for all miles.
You could drive that car theoretically forever and never have the ice even turn on. The engine could stay "brand new" even after several years and you might want to show that if you ever wanted to sell the car�
Mar 16, 2016
ABCCBA @Superloud Yes, it does.
There is a lot of information that is stored in the vehicle and via the Volvo On Call App. As far as mileage, there is the required Federal Odometer, a manually resettable Tripometer (TM) and an automatically resettable Current Trip (TA) that resets four hours after the last vehicle movement stopped.
For energy consumption, it does break down Gallons Used, KWh Used, KWh Regenerated. The App has an electronic Trip Journal for every trip. A separate entry is created after the vehicle is powered down.
It also has a non resettable Dashboard Log that is overall performance that shows Odometer reading, Life MPGe, miles driven on gas, MPG gas, miles driven on battery, KWh Used, Kwh Generated.
There are the trip maps which you can pull up, click on and see the performance at any point of a trip. And, the energy log shows the W/mile used and generated and can be scaled to 1min, 5min, 20min, hourly.
I'm sure there is more, but this is what we have found so far in the first six days.�
Mar 17, 2016
ElectricTundra Great discussion. We've considered a XC90 PHEV as a replacement for my wife's ML350. My LX570 has become not much more than a boat hauler a couple of times each year so we're looking at something for her than can also tow the boats. The ML350 is a bit squirrelly for that. The XC90 does better and reports are that the MX does relatively well too. The GLE550e (or GLC350e) would be a contender but MB aren't bringing those in to the U.S. so no Mercedes for us.
We have a similar roof box problem since without the LX we'd be going back to using my wife's car for ski weekends and thus need our roof box for skis and other stuff.
How does the AWD do in the snow with and without battery available? Any change? How does it compare to other vehicles?
What is the physical/linkage configuration? Rear drive motor? Parallel motor/ice in front?
Our Volvo dealer said that top speed with electric was 40 and then the ICE kicks in but your comments above sound different?
Interesting that you got 19. Our dealer said reality was about 12 on electric. Maybe they just drive too fast.�
Mar 17, 2016
Spidy Looks like it is limited to ZEV states.
Would have really surprised me if they didn't offer this in the country where they sell the most SUVs.�
Mar 17, 2016
Zaxxon Limit is 75, but real-world unless you baby it, the ICE will kick in sooner. Also, the ICE is 316 HP, not 290 as stated upthread. 400 combined HP, 0-60 in 5.3s.
Interesting thread. We're in a very similar boat to the OP--2 girls vs 3, but otherwise remarkably similar. We canceled our X deposit after the 'Meet the X' event and put a deposit down on an XC90 T8, to arrive late summer. Will hopefully become Tesla owners with the Model 3. In the meantime I wish Tesla luck with the X; it just isn't for us.�
Mar 17, 2016
Xpress Isn't the fuel tank on the XC90 Hybrid very small? Combined max range(miles) with a fully charged battery and (filled with gas) ICE would be how many miles?�
Mar 17, 2016
Zaxxon It is smaller, yes. 13.2 gallons vs 18.8 on the T6. Given that the battery had to go somewhere, though, I like Volvo's choice here. Smaller gas tank, different AWD structure, but no infringing on passenger space. Compare this to the BMW X5, whose PHEV version has no third row.�
Mar 17, 2016
Zaxxon In case anyone else is in a similar boat to @MiddKid , @MikeJr74 and me, this is the best (IMO) overview of the XC90 T8 that I've come across. And this is a quick overview of the T8 powertrain.�
Mar 17, 2016
SMSMD Thanks for sharing..Iam in the same boat after the test drive at meet the Model X a couple of days back and started looking around, did not like the new Q7, the third row is a joke like in the X, will check out the XC90.�
Mar 17, 2016
rdalcanto I can't imagine driving a car like the Volvo in electric mode, hitting the gas to accelerate, and then having to wait a second for the ICE to turn on, hit the right gear, and finally start to go. It must feel so much slower than the 0-60 of 5.3 would indicate. I'm glad it works for some of you, but I would rather stick bamboo under my fingernails....�
Mar 17, 2016
ohmman Without having driven it, I'm guessing it's much more seamless than that. The hybrid rentals I've driven have kicked in and out noticeably, but not with an impact on acceleration or driving; just the audible thing takes me off guard.�
Mar 17, 2016
Erleichda In a similar boat, cancelled X after meet event. However, we are just going to wait. March 31 will be the start of a lot of new information. We have Mom in the Model S since 2012 as she puts on serious miles. Dad bikes to work, and we use AWD Sprinter for utility vehicle/camper/bike/ski/surf/SUP. XC90 would be terrible for us in that role and reality is 12 miles of EV for a more complex vehicle seems absurd. We are likely to trade up for an AWD MS (100kw??) this year as kids have 2 more years of jump seat ability (with an 8 passenger alternative vehicle) and wait for Tesla to announce the certain-to-happen folding seats and/or different doors/reliable doors. Elon, we love you man (kinda in an unhealthy way) and stand by you but all we really wanted was a taller Model S that spun those jumpseats 180 degrees and grew them to mini-adult size. Oh, and it would have been cheaper/sooner too. It's OK to admit it!!�
Mar 17, 2016
digicool Thanks for the links. Pretty good coverage of the car on the reviews. The engines seem a bit small for the full size SUV class.
They claim 59 combined MPG in city. So a 13 gal tank shall go 767 city miles
Highway rating however should mostly be gas. At the rated 27 mpg, it should go atleast 350 miles.�
Mar 17, 2016
digicool He actually did in the most recent earnings call. He totally said if they had to do this over again, it would be a much simpler design. He also said no other car company will try to build something like Model X. And then said even Tesla will not build it again.. !!
Anyway.. I am knee deep into Model X
�
Mar 17, 2016
amb3rgris Sorry to jump in here, but I'm actually picking up a XC90 T8 tomorrow. And, like Zaxxon, expecting to get a M3 later.
That 59 number is actually the "eMPG" rating that was published all over the place before they had actual efficiency ratings available. So from what I can tell, it has no actual real bearing on range and mileage (unless you like thinking of electric motor efficiency in terms of gallons of gas, which I find weird).
The actual published rating is 24 mpg city, and 27 mpg highway.
So imagine a all-at-once "city" drive (with no charging) would be more like apprx 15-20 miles on battery, plus another 300 or so in gas/hybrid. Although I can't imagine driving for 320+ miles straight in the city�
Mar 17, 2016
digicool 59 is the eMPG rating for the all electric mode may most likely be the case. I was thinking it was for a Hybrid drive with a fully charged pack. If you read this article, the author seems to have got > 35 miles/gal for his driving over a week which is well over the 24 mpg rated.
Volvo Beats Tesla At Its Own Game With The New XC90 T8 Plug-in Hybrid (Review)
Because the actual mileage may vary based on driving conditions, landscape etc, they may have chose to just state gas only and motor only range and the hybrid range falls between those two.�
Mar 17, 2016
Zaxxon Based on what I've seen from T8 owners, this is the case. I've seen folks getting upper 20s through 70s MPG depending on usage.�
Mar 18, 2016
Zaxxon If i have your options right, $81,255 USD including freight but no taxes.�
Mar 18, 2016
SMSMD Thanks ...Found the US site so deleted my post, you were super Quick to catch me even before I deleted .. We don't have a hybrid model in Canada , It says inscription trying to figure out what it is.�
Mar 18, 2016
SMSMD The difference in the pricing is very reasonable, with Volvo, Just 11,250/ CAD. Tesla has screwed us up with price difference being 40,000/ CAD when compared to the US.�
Mar 18, 2016
Zaxxon You do have the hybrid. T8 is the hybrid, T6 is the ICE-only. Inscription is a trim level. Base (in US) is Momentum, then R-Design, and the top trim is Inscription. All 3 can be chosen with either T6 or T8 power train.�
Mar 18, 2016
MXFLA Was shopping both vehicles (MX and XC90.) Looks like Volvo is upgrading to Pilot Assist II in the '17 model, I wonder how that compares to Tesla's Autopilot? The autopilot feature is the game changer for me, I think Volvo's current system only works to maybe 35mph and doesn't learn from other Volvos?�
Mar 18, 2016
SMSMD Great..The US Volvo site is different from the Canadian one.�
Mar 18, 2016
SMSMD Welcome to TMC.�
Mar 18, 2016
Zaxxon I'm aware. The T8 is available on both.�
Mar 18, 2016
Zaxxon PAII is much closer to Autopilot. Works up to 80 mph and without a lead car. Not quite AP, but one of the closest I've seen.�
Mar 25, 2016
werthan Just a couple of thoughts for those considering this choice as well. I have an early Model S, and I undoubtedly love it. When my wife's lease ran out, we had a decision between a Lexus hybrid, Volvo XC90 T8, or the Model X. (Lucky to be able to buy any of them.) My wife was insistent on not purchase another electric because she did not want two "electric constrained" vehicles. While I was against it, we met in the middle and got the T8.
As a car, it is extremely nice. Absolutely excellent handling, fantastic interior, good UI, and exceedingly comfortable. It is pretty amazing, and makes sense why it won the Motor Trend award. The only knock I could have given it on day one was the limited range and that the ride was a little harsh even with air suspension, but that was a very, very minor complaint. However, we have had nothing but problems with the T8 since we got it, and it is clear now that there are software issues. Everything from hybrid drive failures, to the car requiring us to pull over and not go faster than 10 miles an hour, to the rear hatch opening on its own. Also, there are minor things such as not being able to store favorite radio stations, etc. Now my wife wants to return it and is all on board with a Model X (which won't happen if we can work through the issues on the Volvo).
I have no doubt that the Volvo will be an excellent SUV for us once some of the kinks are worked out, and hopefully others on this thread are not experiencing the same. However, if I were doing it again, I would have pressed harder for the Model X to be given at least equal weight with my wife and not dismissed so readily.�
Mar 25, 2016
Zaxxon Yikes. I hope Volvo takes care of you. We're looking at a 2017, and my hope is some of those first-year production issues will have been ironed out by then.�
Mar 25, 2016
ElectricTundra This is so very dependent on individuals. I talked with a guy yesterday who has an XC90 and has driven over 95% of his miles electric. He's guesstimating that he'll use about 2 gallons of gas per month over an average year.
Which raises an interesting question. Does the engine run some regardless of need? I'd think it would need to? Problems with stale gas if you don't go through enough gas?�
Mar 25, 2016
MrBoylan Did you opt for the upgraded B&W sound system with the tweeter on top? I spent some quality time with this system and came away very impressed. It's only offered in the XC90 and the new S90 sedan.�
Mar 25, 2016
werthan Not asked, but we purchased the B&W sound system. It is awesome. Sound is fantastic, and the various sound settings (like concert hall, etc.) are great depending on what you are looking for.�
Mar 25, 2016
ohmman I drove behind an XC90 T8 today in Napa for a bit and eventually pulled up alongside. It's a great looking vehicle, looks well designed, and from the images I've seen online seems very useful/utilitarian. This particular one was sporting a roof rack (!) and box. I think it's a great choice depending on your situation. I'm still glad I ordered the X - those tailpipes still bother me big time - but that's a personal thing. I'm hopeful @MiddKid and the rest who went in that direction have great experiences with the car.�
Mar 25, 2016
Nototrader I'm just curious when this became the Volvo motors club? Having said that, the new Volvo looks very nice!�
Mar 25, 2016
Zaxxon I know that was tongue-in-cheek, and I can't speak for the others, but I'm still shooting to become an all-Tesla household. It'll just happen one vehicle replacement cycle later.
The X doesn't work for us, the XC90 does. I'm confident the 3 will replace our 2013 Prius in due time, and that our next large car after the XC90 will be a Tesla.�
Mar 28, 2016
ElectricTundra Part of discussing any car is also discussing it's key competitors and the pros and cons of each. There are similarly threads on the Volvo, Mercedes, and Porsche forums about the Model X. Not a good sign if you're afraid of honest discussion of the competition.
The XC90 is a quite nice car. Unfortunately it's going through it's share of growing pains like the X though most of the XC90 problems seem to be software related.�
Mar 28, 2016
rogbmw We have an S as my daily car, and had an X on order from the night of the reveal. We soon realized that there are "holes" in the US where we drive regularly that supercharging just does not exist, so we started looking elsewhere. We decided to order an XC90 T8 and cancel our X order. We have had our XC90 T8 since the first of the year. We have had Zero problems or issues. It is primarily the wifemobile. We just took a 900 mile trip, and averaged over 31mpg with an average of 73mph for the trip. I love the S, and do not plan on being without a Tesla, but being all electric did not make sense for us at this time with the current supercharger network. Most of the wife's trips around town are totally on battery, and we have a realistic range of 20 miles. The X is a beautiful machine - but just not for us at the current time.�
Jul 15, 2016
Zaxxon To close the circle on my piece of this thread: we picked up our XC90 T8 last night. It was a bit bittersweet as on the one hand we're finally moving up from 'regular' hybrids to a PHEV, and on the other we're not yet in the Tesla family. Still hoping to get there when we replace our next car with (hopefully) a Model 3 (deposited the morning of 3/31). But the XC90 was just a much better fit for us than the X, so here we are.
Thought I'd share a few photos of our new beast.
Averaging a bit over 40 MPG so far, including my wife's trip to work this morning--26 miles, 0.2 gallons of gas.�
Jul 15, 2016
forumman83 I personally believe that PHEV is a compromise that gives you the worst of both worlds. Just my opinion Congrats on the new vehicle.�
Jul 15, 2016
calisnow "A backhanded compliment, also known as a left-handed compliment or asteism, is an insult that is disguised as a compliment. Sometimes, a backhanded compliment may be inadvertent. However, the term usually connotes an intent to belittle or condescend."
Insult - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia�
Jul 15, 2016
ABCCBA @forumman83 Yeah, we are so out of touch by driving fully electric for most all of our daily tasks. And even worse, when we go on long road trips, we are burdened by getting to our destination almost 50% sooner than if we drove our Model S and had to Supercharge every 150 to 200 miles. But, to each his own, Ay!
�
Jul 15, 2016
roblab To each, as they say. When we bought our first Tesla, there were no holes. There were no superchargers, anywhere. The word had not been published to Tesla owners. A week after we got our car, we went 300 miles to Nevada. A month after purchase, we went to Canada.
Fast forward. A month ago, my two closest chargers were 45 miles away. This week, a new one opened up 20 miles away. Yeah, we're in California, but, things change, don't they. And, I was NeVeR happy about driving on imported, expensive, polluting fuels. I now own solar, and all of my charging is free.
See, if I lived where you do, I'd probably manage well with the 90D. Just perspective and experience, maybe. I hope you are able to move to pure EV in the future. Good luck!�
Jul 15, 2016
DuplexDianne We currently have an Odyssey and a MINI...and three kids under 9. When the grandparents visit, the kids will get the back seats. Thinking we will have little use for the Odyssey...maybe put it into service with Get-Around, lol.�
Jul 19, 2016
MiddKid Zaxxon,
Congrats on the beautiful R-Design. My wife went with the Inscription. We're already 3K miles in and are loving it. We originally had a T8 on order but long story short landed up with a T6. Still a fantastic vehicle with good mileage.
I mentioned this in another thread but I've found it interesting that recently I've found myself jumping in my wife's XC90 instead of the Model S. Surprised me! Really enjoying the fit/finish and driving experience of the XC90. Part of that is my Model S is going in for it's 37,500 mile service next week and is having a number of significant quality issues. I made the appointment in early June but the first date they gave me was late July...as much as I love Tesla I was worried about the service centers getting overloaded and it's happening quickly.
After camping last weekend in the XC90 and using a Thule 4 bike hitch mount along with a Yakima cargo box and another bike carrier on the roof, zero regrets cancelling the X. The utility is just not there for us. I may still replace the MS down the road with an X but will likely hold out for awhile. The irony is that despite how crazy the set up in the picture looks, with a tow hitch and a roof rack my Model S could have done it!
�
Jul 19, 2016
Zaxxon Wow, that is a full set-up you have there.
And I can report that Tesla has no monopoly on initial quality problems--our T8 is already in for service to resolve inconsistent charging (sometimes it charges, other times it thinks it's unplugged when it's not). Fun times. Hopefully it's a short visit. I had to chuckle when it happened, as when we were in line for the X I had mentally marked off a week or two of service to be required for initial quality issues, then thought perhaps with the Volvo I'd escape early service. No dice.
On the other hand, the car is fantastic even without the PHEV portion functioning--averaged about 31 MPG in the 300 miles we drove prior to dropping it back off, with one 18-mile charge in there.�
Jul 19, 2016
AnxietyRanger I used to think like that, too, buying into Tesla a couple of years ago. It is, in a way, true of course: a hybrid system is a needlessly complicated exercise. In theory at least the Tesla skateboard is probably the most beautiful drive-train in existence, which has resulted in other practical advancements especially in the Model S (frunk/trunk/interior space). In comparison, a hybrid is basically a poor EV and an impure ICE experience. An inconsistent driving feel with a complicated maintenance future. And we know the motivations of the mainstream manufacturers for making these things are equally bad. If only the industry had evolved better and faster, yes.
That said, I've come around to see this differently from the user/driver perspective. The sad fact is: The available choices of an EV are limited both in number as well as in functionality - as are the driving realities for many regions. Sure, in theory many (wealthier) people could now go all EV: one can buy a Model S, a Model X that fulfill many requirements. It is not like this is completely impossible to operate them either by now, if there is a will, there is often a way. But it, too, in return can be a complicated exercise, just of a different sort.
Today, to go all EV, one has to compromise because basically one can only buy a Tesla or a much more limited other EV. This means limitations e.g. in convenience features, maintenance network, space to carry people and things (especially given the compromises Model X launched with). As well as the EV limitations of range (compared to an ICE or a PHEV), speed of replenishing "fuel" etc. All those things. Tesla has done remarkably well for a car start-up and showed the world what an EV can do, but still they sell a compromise of their own kind.
Now, contrast this with adding PHEV choices to the mix. A much vaster real-life array of car choices means likely being able to fulfill much more of those varied personal requirements (space, style, features). Less compromises there, because there is so much more choice. Yet, while not having to compromise on the possibility of commuting on electricity (to drive down operating cost/pollution/noise, enjoy a smoother/more relaxing ride) on a daily basis - if one's daily destination is suitably located within the range. For this, one certainly has to give up commuting performance and perhaps the consistent ICE-age thrill of driving the thing, but these other benefits are there to offset these limitations.
In an ideal world, we wouldn't need the PHEV. But the reality is, buying a car is a compromise - and the best compromise depends on very personal circumstances. I've come to see PHEV as a useful option for the buyer (even if it is the result of an industry malaise), instead of the abomination that it certainly in a theoretical sense is. And I say this as someone driving a Model S and a Model X on order. I expect this to remain so until the EV lineups and charging networks have been greatly expanded.
This was true for my region and my car purchases as well (timeline/region adjusted). When I started in my region, there were no Superchargers anywhere in the range of the car, no Tesla shops or maintenance either - and a very limited number of Tesla compatible public charging anyway. It was arguably much worse than in California when Model S started out, maybe even worse than when Roadster started out for a time. A couple of years later, the Supercharger network, the non-Tesla charging network and the addition of the CHAdeMO adapter have resulted in a massive practical range extension. I can even drive the thing to a Tesla SC now, which appeared out of nowhere. Yeah, things change.
And sure, I survived in the first year+. Luckily the car didn't break down and the few very hairy moments regarding destination charging were solved with some luck - and could have been better avoided with better planning. My daily commute is easily charged at home even on a slow plug (no HPWC available where I live) and the Tesla battery meant this wasn't even needed daily. My hauling needs are modest, so the massive space-champ for its form-factor Model S managed great. I was forfeiting some convenience and safety features not available at the time of the purchase (and some not even today), but otherwise OK. A few trips were relegated to an ICE due to schedule needs. I am lucky that the charging network is especially growing where I live and move around mostly, not all are equally blessed yet.
So, whilst I agree it comes down to perspective and experience, I would also add it comes down to motivation and requirements - and these can start muddying up the question of the relevancy of the beauty of that drive-train or purity of a gas-less existence real fast. With strong inherent motivation, like you clearly had when you started and when I, in my own time and place, started, operating an EV is certainly often possible and that drive-train rewarding. Especially if one doesn't have requirements diametrically opposed to this plan, e.g. need for massive hauling of stuff and people or e.g. need to drive/refill fast on constant long-range trips due to schedule.
But what if you do have those opposing requirements - or a different set of motivations? In the end, "you *can* do it" is not a very enticing argument for buying a thing where you perhaps spend the third most time after home and work. No amount of experience is going to change the fact that EVs, as they currently stand, are sub-optimal solutions for those who need/want to carry a tons of stuff and people - and/or need/want to travel far and fast (and with minimal planning/preparation) - and/or need/want the latest set of on-board convenience features and amenities.
Getting a pure EV or a pure ICE may offer the best choices for a driving fanatic - and especially the latter offers hugely more choice for fulfilling other personal requirements. Getting an EV can offer great rewards from someone investing in solar, zero emissions, another kind of trill of driving etc. They do. But in between there are those who just want and need to move around with convenience and within subjective requirements that overlap both of these worlds, who may not e.g. live in sunny states (not just lesser solar potential, winter cuts into that range badly too) - and they may find those needs and wishes converging even on a PHEV at the moment.
There is a reason why the Volvo XC90 T8 is so oft-spoken on the Model X forums. It does lots of things better than any of the Teslas (let alone other EVs) and still does the one thing the EVs do (and ICEs don't) adequately for many. Sadly, some of that was simply a missed opportunity on Teslas part. If Tesla can solve the folding second row and offer a real roof-box workaround eventually on the Model X, some of these people will come around - same as the charging and service network expands. But today we're not there yet.�
Jul 20, 2016
Zaxxon Well said, AR. Folks need to stop taking it as an insult when someone chooses something other than a Tesla.
In our case, the T8 got us to a point where many/most of our day-to-day miles are now all-EV, and with the leftover cash that would have gone to a compromised (for us) X experience, we have half of our Model 3 paid for.�
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