Jun 2, 2016
GJ79 I am somewhat disappointed as it almost feels like I have bought a lemon.
My 12V Battery has been replaced about 8 months ago. Then two months ago my car send me an charging interrupted message via the phone app. When I checked the car showed 12V battery issue, car needs service and car may not restart message. And sure thing car didn't start. After being on the phone with service for an hour the car was placed in tow mode and towed to the service center the next morning. Since my car is out of warranty I had to pay for the tow. When the car arrived at the service center they said it started up just fine and everything was normal - lovely. After trying to find out what the issue was and not finding any problems the service center replaced the 12V battery again and returned the vehicle to me after 5 days as they couldn't find anything wrong (they did treat me wekk and did not charge me for any work done). 61 days later which was yesterday I am getting the same message again. When checked on the vehicle while charging the same car needs service and 12 Volt Battery issues appeared on the screen again. After calling service they did a couple reebots and wanted to initiate a tow again. I said no I don't want to tow now and explained what happened two months ago. I was going to talk to my service center this morning. Too my surprise the car started up just fine 2 hrs after the incident last night and I drove it to work this morning with no issues. I am getting scared that the issue will eventually get me stranded somewhere and that I paid a lot of money for such an unreliable vehicle. Jump starting did not work so there is nothing I can do other than to look at all the fancy computer screens popping up with alerts.
Has anyone had any similar issues ? My car has now 75k miles and is a modelyear 2014.�
Jun 2, 2016
WATTS-UP That's a lot of miles for a 2 year old car, however, it should not matter. The only thing I do is talk to the same person in service and document everything. The next time this happens if it happens call service and ask the to pull the logs on your car give them the time and location when it happens.�
Jun 2, 2016
GJ79 Yes it's a lot of miles but I have driven other cars for 150-200k miles with no issues and it's a car, it should be built to drive especially if everyone is bragging about how reliable an EV is. On the last visit they have also replaced the drive unit. This 'almost' makes me want my reliable Kia back. I am just very frustrated.....�
Jun 2, 2016
Larry Sorry about your troubles. Cars, even Teslas can have failures. While drive able consider taking it to a differant service center if there is one available in your area for another opinion. Have you had other issues with your car as well? It's the mileage that creates wear on the car not time so I believe this one issue will be resolved and you can drive it for another 75000 miles reliably. Good luck.�
Jun 2, 2016
GJ79 That last visit was performed in the Tampa service center and they even had a specialist from the Orlando service center to look at it but they couldn't find anything. I agree with more miles more wear on the drive unit or moving parts but not on electronics. I was an electrical engineer in the past and inverters/ converters etc don't wear in two years. This seems like either an issue with a wire harness or with an electronic component, both of them should not be affected by the mileage.�
Jun 2, 2016
cman8 How is it out of warranty being two years old?�
Jun 2, 2016
GJ79 warranty is only up to 50k miles�
Jun 2, 2016
daxz This sounds like a connection/grounding issue. Intermittent problems and resolved after movement (towed) or getting in/out of car. This can happen with any car. Locating connection problems can be very tough. Measuring resistance on connections can locate them. The easiest way is to start moving wires when it is failing (be careful working with any battery ). Mileage can contribute by adding vibrations to connections but I don't think 75K miles would add much stress on connections, especially with no engine adding addition vibrations.�
Jun 2, 2016
SPXMike I had a similar issue about six months ago. Got the three 12v error messages. Car would not start (would not come out of park). Called for tow. Tow truck came and car started, so I drove it onto the flatbed and they took it in (got a bitchin' loaner too). They could not find the problem, got car back 4 days later. Then about two months later problem happens again. Car would not start all day. The 12v seemed a tad low at 12.2. Tried jumping, no luck. Next day car started fine. I drove it to SC. This time they found it. There is a switch in the high voltage junction box (HVJB) that opens if you take the lid off. The HVJB lives under the right rear seat. If that switch opens car won't start. They figured the resistance across the switch was a tad high when the switch was closed (I think needs to be less than 5 ohms, mine was 7 ohms, going off memory, they didn't put details in invoice). They replaced HVJB. No problems since. Not saying this is your problem, but this sounds similar.�
Jun 2, 2016
GJ79 Thank you a lot for this reply. I will will definitely use this information when talking to the service center.�
Jun 2, 2016
GJ79 May I ask which Service Center location did find this for you ?�
Jun 2, 2016
SPXMike From invoice:
"Concern: Customer states: Vehicle unresponsive and will not start. 12v battery alert
illuminated.
Pay Type: Warranty
Corrections: Vehicle Alerts General Diagnosis
Customer stated vehicle unresponsive. Reviewed log and found HVIL circuit out of
specification. Test system and found high resistance in HVBJ switch. Recommend HVJB
replacement.
Corrections: HV Junction Box - Cover - 2nd Generation
Removed and replaced HVJB for rear wheel drive. Verified Vehicle operating/ charging as
design.
Part Quantity
3 PHASE HIGH VOLTAGE JUNCTION BOX
ASSEMBLY - NORTH AMERICA (1021154-
02-J)
1
Parts Replaced or Added
Corrections: Perform Validation Test Drive
Performed validation test drive to ensure vehicle operating as design."�
Jun 2, 2016
SPXMike sorry posted this before I read your note. It was the Buena Park, CA Service Center. This is in southern California - Orange County.
Again, this may not be your problem but it seems similar.�
Jun 2, 2016
SPXMike I believe HVIL = High Voltage Interlock.�
Jun 2, 2016
GJ79 Yes indeed sounds very similar, mine is a P85+ as yours as well.�
Jun 2, 2016
kort677 miles�
Jun 2, 2016
eye.surgeon Sorry to hear about your problems. As an FYI, referring to a car with 75k miles on it as a lemon is a little inaccurate. That's 5 years of driving for the average person. A lemon is a car that has problems while still new or nearly-new.
Hope they get the issue resolved for you.�
Jun 2, 2016
pedriscoll Do not feed the troll!�
Jun 3, 2016
Lerxt This comment brought to you by Chevrolet. Have a look at the Volt, at your dealer today.�
Jun 3, 2016
AB4EJ Something else that can affect a high-electronics car like a Tesla is connector problems - a tiny amount of corrosion in a certain place can cause intermittent problems. (I used to work for Packard Electric, [now Delphi] which made all wiring harnesses for GM vehicles). Connector problems were highest source of warranty work.�
Jun 3, 2016
zambono Don't waste your time with that guy he only has 2 posts and both negative. Sounds more like someone who wanted an S but could only afford a Leaf.�
Jun 3, 2016
Galve2000 SHADE....
(i totally agree btw...)�
Jun 3, 2016
SPXMike Back to the technical issue at hand - concur with @AB4EJ. The first time my car was in for this they disconnected and reconnected all the connectors. Unfortunately that wasn't the problem, but sound advice.�
Jun 3, 2016
GJ79 Hey guys disregard the Troll, not worth the Keyboard strokes.
I am supposed to get a service appointment next week unless the issue turns into an immediate one again.
I concur with it being a connector or component (relay) issue. However if it's something as harsh that can completely shut down this vehicle they should be able to isolate the issue and fix it. I mean I was to a point where I couldn't jump it and needed a tow.�
Jun 3, 2016
supratachophobia Oddly enough, he brings up a good point about the FOB proximity to the car. The rest though..... I think it's a little generous to think that he things he can affect stock price by negative comments on this forum. Many have tried for years to wag the dog with TSLA, to no avail.�
Jun 3, 2016
RichieTheC Thank God there is only one of him!�
Jun 3, 2016
SPXMike I was told for my specific issue it would not stop the car if it was already moving, but it would prevent a restart.�
Jun 4, 2016
W0QR Get one of these: Amazon.com: #HappyPrimeDay Special Offer JEBSENS - 4in1 3.1A Dual USB Car Charger, Cigarette Lighter Voltage Digital Panel Meter Volt Voltmeter Monitor for Auto Car Truck, with Blue LED Display - Displays Voltage, Amps and Internal Temperature (Fahrenheit) - Total of 3.1 amps, 15W, Compatible with iPhone 6, 6 Plus, 5s, 5c, 4s, 4, iPods, iPad, Samsung Galaxy Note 2, Note 3, S2 S3, S4, S5, HTC One, LG G3, Most Android/Windows Smart Cell Phones, GPS, Tablets, and Other USB-charged Devices (Black with BLUE LED): Cell Phones & Accessories
There are all kinds available but this one has some additional features. If the voltage is around 13 volts--your AGM is fine.�
Jun 4, 2016
SPXMike ^^^Thanks! That's pretty cool. I just bought a few. Perfect for my tent trailer as well.�
Jun 8, 2016
GJ79 So it happened to me again last night and I checked the Voltage with my Escort Radar detector and it showed the voltage at 12.3 Volt. Is that too low ? I would think it that should be still in range, right ?�
Jun 8, 2016
SPXMike That seems low. It should be in the upper 12s at least. After reading your post just now I went and checked my car and I'm getting 13.8 VDC at the "cigarette lighter" power port.�
Jun 8, 2016
hiroshiy In addition to the radar detector, what devices do you use?�
Jun 8, 2016
GJ79 This morning the Car ran fine again and the Voltage was at 13.3Volts. There is also a dashcam installed but it was installed 2 years ago by the original owner.�
Jun 9, 2016
GJ79 Now the service center wants to have the car again for 4-5 days and want me to pay for it as it's out of warranty. The first 5 day visit where they couldn't find the issue) they covered the cost. But now this sounds like it might get very expensive for me. This really sucks on a two year old vehicle.�
Jun 9, 2016
msnow How can you be out of warranty on a 2 year old car? Is it over 50k mileage?�
Jun 9, 2016
GJ79 Yes
Problem is that they already tried to find the issue on a previous visit when this same issue got me stranded and I needed a tow and back then they couldn't find it anything wrong after having the car for 5 days. It seems like there is no end to it. They can charge me over and over or diagnosing and not finding the cause.�
Jun 9, 2016
SPXMike @GJ79 I'm not sure what other choice you have. I was going to recommend you drive the car down there, make them keep it, and not return it to you until they find and fix this. Looks like that is what they want to do, and if this is happening with increasing frequency they should find it.
I've experienced your same frustration, except for the out-of-warranty part. I know this stinks, but if it happens more often they should find it. Good luck to you.�
Jun 9, 2016
GJ79 Anyone wants to buy a P85+ lol�
Jun 10, 2016
hiroshiy Ok, does the dashcam stay on even the vehicle is off? Also what kind of dashcam? I asked because some dashcams have internal rechargeable batteries and if those go bust, they could keep spending a lot of 12V power. Do you have a cutoff device between the dashcam and the car? I'd recommend inserting:
http://www.blackvue.com/power-magic-pro/�
Jun 10, 2016
K-MTG
I don't think you need a cutoff on a Tesla as the 12V battery is continuously topped-off by the main battery�
Jun 10, 2016
hiroshiy I know. But in OP's case, it is apparently not working. It is also not a good idea to deep cycle 12V battery many times due to always-on devices.
I don't know for sure, but I heard while the car is turned off and in Energy Saving mode, it doesn't top up 12V. If that is true, you need the cutoff device.�
Jun 10, 2016
K-MTG I have seen many wire it directly without an issue and actually had issues with power management devices such as the power magic pro. But I don't know for sure, gonna have a dashcam installed on my X next week�
Jun 10, 2016
GJ79 Are there instructions anywhere on how to access that box ? I think it's underneath the rear seats. I would take a shot and look at myself but would need some basic instructions.�
Jun 20, 2016
GJ79 So here we go again, I needed a tow on Friday from the Supercharger. Car was charging for about 5 mins when the 12Volt System voltage dropped from 13.3 to 12.3Volt and charging interrupted. Called the service center and they sent over their Tow truck. Wile waiting I watched the Voltage go down to 11.9 Volt. When the Service guy arrived and I showed him the alarms and he continued checking the car for dings and scratches. When he was done he sat in the car ready to put it in tow mode and the messages disappeared again and the car started. That was about 1.5 hrs after the issue occured. Good thing so he was able to drive it on the truck.
First talk to service center on Staurday. They haven't looked at the car yet but from previous logs I was told that they belive it's the charger and want to start swapping it. This time the issue occured at the Supercharger which I always thought bypass the charger. In any case hoping to hear something back today or tomorrow.
Being stuck at the supercharger I was able to check out the MX and the Facelifted S as well
�
Jun 20, 2016
K-MTG I am worried that my Blackvue dashcam can cause that 12V issue on my MX if I hardwire it to the battery. Doesn't the DC to DC converter regulate the charge on the battery though�
Jun 20, 2016
GJ79 I highly doubt that this is an issue caused by the dashcam, and seriously if it were caused by the dashcam than that would be very poor engineering on the Tesla side. On the other side: Their whole 12Volt system seems to be very poor engineering considering all the issues I find online about it.
The service center has never said anything pointing towards the dashcam either besides that the dashcam is not powered when the car is off. Also I had the Dashcam unplugged for a few days and the 12 Volt issue would still occur frequently.�
Jun 20, 2016
K-MTG Perhaps the MX has a stronger 12V system because of the electric doors and FWD�
Jun 20, 2016
GJ79 Time will tell if it's better on the X.
The whole charge and discharge cycling of the 12 Volt batterie and it only lasting less then 2 years on average is less than acceptable. It seems like it is to Tesla though. My car is a 2014 and they have replaced the 12Volt Batterie 4 times already and now finally starting to accept the fact that my intermittend failures are not caused by the 12V battery and now the car is out of warranty. I hope they will at least acknowledge the fact that they failed in fixing the problem while the car was still under warranty and pick up the tap to fix it now.�
Jun 20, 2016
msnow If you have your paperwork and are persistent they will fix it.�
Jun 20, 2016
K-MTG Do you think it would be safe for me the wire my Blackvue to the Tesla with out a power management solution? Or should I use something like the power magic pro. I was planning to wire directly to the constant power source but now I am thinking otherwise�
Jun 20, 2016
GJ79 I wouldn't think it causes an issue and if it does you can change it then. My problem has nothing to do with the dashcam.�
Jun 24, 2016
GJ79
So quick update. My vehicle has been in the shop for a whole week now (again) and they weren't able to find what the problem was. My advice to check out the juction box contactor wasn't been taken serious initially as I was told my car was different then Mike's. However got a call last night from the service manager telling me that tey took out the whole HVJB and placed it in the vehicle that he is driving to see if the issue would now occur in his car. They are definetley trying hard, he said that every technician in the shop had their hands on it and that they have never seen anything like it. I am just hoping now that the isssue follows with the junction box - fingers crossed.�
Jun 24, 2016
Electricfan Sweet! Ordered!�
Jun 24, 2016
SPXMike @GJ79 looks like they are really taking this seriously - good to hear.
Good luck to you. I'm looking forward to hearing how this is resolved.�
Jun 24, 2016
hiroshiy Are you using Range mode on or off usually? I think I've seen some comments in TMC that 12V battery is not replenished with range mode on while the car is off.
Edit:range mode off -> on�
Jun 24, 2016
GJ79 tried both - what I don't get is the last time this happened I was sitting in the car at the supercharger
the car was Supercharging and the 12 Volt System was at 13.1 Volts. And all the sudden the voltage just dived to 11.9 and the charging interrupted and the car showed the 12 Volt message and was unable to drive.�
Jun 24, 2016
kort677 in over 3 years of ownership, with range mode off 99% of the time I've not seen any sort of issues with the battery, other than the "usual" contact failure in my '14 model S�
Jun 24, 2016
hiroshiy My mistake: while range mode on. Also if you keep range mode on all the time, car usually goes into deep sleep so 12V should not be stressed.�
Jun 24, 2016
Chickenlittle 70 k miles and this is only problem that is great for any car. I remember my audi8 having leaky roof after bringing it in service asked me why I took the sun roof seal out..I tnen asked when did they forget to put it in. Then my drivers side window fell off while I was driving. They refused to repair under warrantee but didn't charge me for the labor since they had to take door apart to replace window motor that broke under warrantee. Then towed when wouldn't,t start. I traded in that day�
Jun 24, 2016
GJ79 I had a KIA and drove it 120k miles with not a single problems.
Besides I don't have a problem with the car having an issue. I am having a problem that they don't know what is the issue. I received the car back last time stating there is no problem with it. My car is extremely unreliable in this state and I can't take it on a road trip for that reason.�
Jun 24, 2016
SPXMike I take it you are now constantly monitoring 12v? Great idea. Did you pick up one of those digital voltmeter/USB chargers quoted by @W0QR? I bought four of them.�
Jun 24, 2016
SPXMike Concur. A driver's side window falling out is unacceptable, especially for a car as pricey as an A8. But an intermittent electrical problem that kills the car dead? That's Russian Roulette every time you leave the driveway.�
Jun 24, 2016
GJ79 No I found that I can change my Escort Radar detector to where the display actually shows the 12V system voltage.�
Jun 28, 2016
GJ79
Just got another update. The issue did not follow the HVJB to the other vehicle. They are moving on and try the swapping out chargers and see if they would cause it. Vehicle has been in the shop 12 days. It starts to scare the crap out of me knowing the level of technology in this vehicle and how difficult it seems to find a cause of an intermittent issue that renders the vehicle useless when it occurs.�
Jun 28, 2016
JRP3 Your description of what occurred while supercharging with the 12V dropping so low sounds as if the DC/DC converter is shutting off or being disconnected intermittently, so the 12V system is only running from the 12V battery and being drained down.�
Jun 28, 2016
brkaus This just stinks.
Even if running from the 12v, it wouldn't drop instantly like I believe your reporting?
I feel like it implies bad connection between battery and whatever is measuring the voltage or possibly high current draw from something.�
Jun 28, 2016
GJ79 The issue occured on both: regular charging and Supercharging. But it only occurs when charging.�
Jun 28, 2016
GJ79 yes it dropped within 2 minutes. they are replacing the chargers now. Which I don't really understand cause I thought they were completely bypassed when supercharging.�
Jun 28, 2016
brkaus Yes, strange. Unless somehow chargers could pull a large amount of current on the 12v side. Even if it was charging on AC, the chargers go to the HV pack, not the 12V system.
This is one of those things that will be so obvious when it is found, and probably something small. But finding it...
Would be interested in seeing the voltage at the actual 12v battery terminals when it is dropping. And of course the current, but that's a bit harder. Is there anything that is high current draw on the 12v side? I think it's just lighting and computers.
I guess the 11.9 could just indicate the DC/DC converter turned off. That's still a healthy voltage for a battery. It would drop to that and stabalize.
Have you discussed lemon laws with them? At least it sounds like they are taking it seriously.�
Jun 28, 2016
JRP3 Sure, I just meant that the reported voltage going down to 11.9V confirms to me that the DC/DC is being taken off line for some reason. I don't know if the DC/DC dropping out is stopping the charge session, or if something else is stopping the charge session and then the DC/DC drops out.�
Jun 28, 2016
JRP3 After 75K miles?�
Jun 28, 2016
GJ79
I can't answer answer that. I don't hink there is anything using that uses thatmuch 12 volt power. It simply shouldn't do it and I am almost sure its some kind of component that is bad between the DC/DC converter and the chargers.�
Jun 28, 2016
GJ79 Yeah I don't think that would fly, also I do believe regardless of the miles that a 2 year old vehicle shouldn't do this. Again I had Kia's that were more reliable. A vehicle in this price range should be reliable, period. That's what I expect when I have a car serviced, otherwise what is the point of the service. We could just wait til it breaks.�
Jun 28, 2016
JRP3 You'd think, but that doesn't seem to be the way the world works. Higher end vehicles seem to be much less reliable than mid range vehicles such as a Camry or something. Not that I'm suggesting your problem is at all acceptable.�
Jun 28, 2016
GJ79 Well, if they sent out a batch of Model 3's with this issue it would be a disaster, so lets hope they use it as an example and get it fixed.
I doubt that the average Model 3 owners wants or expects to pay upwards of 6-8k for new chargers or junction boxes once their car hits 50k miles. 50k miles is nothing nowadays !!!�
Jun 28, 2016
Lloyd I monitor mine all the time with the detector. I run 13.6 (usually that low when AC running high) to 13.9�
Jun 28, 2016
hiroshiy I'm still wondering what caused this issue. First of all we need to suspect DCDC converter. Tesla should try change DCDC before changing out chargers.
That said I still doubt dashcam... is it always on, while vehicle is off? If so can you put some monitoring device like a tester in between to measure amps going into dashcam? Need to find 12V hogging device. Going from 13Vish to 11Vish doesn't seem right. Internal batteries or capacitors inside some connected device become very low resistance?�
Jun 28, 2016
GJ79 It is not the dashcam, It did also happen when the dash cam was disconnected. And TEsla is not suspecting the dash cam at all otherwise I am sure they would have brought it up. I am suspecting something in the 12 Volt charging circuit. No 12 Volt device would cause a voltage drop that fast under load unless it's some kind of short.�
Jun 28, 2016
hiroshiy If the 12V low issue occurred when the dashcam is taken off, then it likely be caused by 12V circuit shorting or something like that. Maybe Tesla need to open up and find any suspicious wires or harnesses in 12V circuit. Haven't heard of such 12V issues though in TMC. Hope you and Tesla can resolve this wierd issue.�
Jun 29, 2016
GJ79 They did that when the isue initially occured a few months ago. They went through all the harnesses and see if something was damaged there. They now lean more towards a component like the charger shortening the cirquit at certain times. The fact that this only occurs when charging makes me lean towards the charging cirquit too. But this also always happened about 2.5-3 hrs into the charging cycle when the SOC was around 40% or lower when starting to charge (I told them that several times but they seem to ignore my talking) . It seems like Tesla does not have a good way in the shop to charge and discharge the battery for testing. From what I was seeing tehy only charge a few minutes here and there and it sems like they do run the heater in the cra to discharge the battery. You would think they would have some kind of system setup to drain the battery for testing.�
Jun 29, 2016
JRP3 Except the supercharger bypasses the on board charger and shouldn't be involved during a supercharging session at all. Maybe they think it's "trying" to get involved when it shouldn't. Definitely a weird one.�
Jun 29, 2016
GJ79 Exactly what I thought, bought who knows as the chargers are also controlled by the 12 volt cirquit and even if they are not actively charging they might be part of the loop. As I said I don't really know and I can't tell them what to do, so I am just hoping.�
Jun 29, 2016
brkaus What about the AC or the cooling system? That runs when charging. Does the compressor run from the HV side? How about the fans and pumps? i think a dead short would let the smoke out and would be found pretty quickly, so that's unlikely.�
Jul 6, 2016
GJ79 So 2.5 weeks in they were not able to reproduce the issue. It seems like they have no good way to drain the battery in the shop and after swapping back multiple parts like HVJB and the chargers themself they now say that they found something in the Main Pack and that they believe that it could cause my 12V low problems. They are putting a loaner pack on my car for now and ship my Battery pack to California for diagnosis. Fingers crossed, I will get my car back tomorrow with the loaner pack and I so hope I won't get stuck anywhere !!!�
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