Aug 23, 2016
systemcrashed Announced today, just saw this!
Tesla announces the P100D: 315 mi, 2.5 sec, quickest production car in world
Nearly six months after white hat hacker Jason Hughes discovered references to a �P100D� badge embedded within the firmware of a Model S, Tesla CEO Elon Musk confirmed that a 100 kWh battery capable of 315 miles of range will in fact be making its way to the Model S and Model X. The news comes after the billionaire entrepreneur took to Twitter earlier in the day to tease of a new Tesla product.
The new 100 kWh battery will be Tesla�s largest battery yet and will be available for the performance version of the Model S and Model X with Ludicrous mode. The upgrade will catapult the Tesla Model S from 0 to 60 MPH in 2.5 seconds making it join the ranks of today�s hyper cars by becoming the third quickest car in the world and fastest accelerating production car in the world.
Existing Model S and Model X P90D Ludicrous owners are also given the option to upgrade to a Tesla P100D.
TESLA P100D
The Model S P100D with Ludicrous mode is the third fastest accelerating production car ever produced, with a 0-60 mph time of 2.5* seconds. However, both the LaFerrari and the Porsche 918 Spyder were limited run, million dollar vehicles and cannot be bought new. While those cars are small two seaters with very little luggage space, the pure electric, all-wheel drive Model S P100D has four doors, seats up to 5 adults plus 2 children and has exceptional cargo capacity.
The 100 kWh battery also increases range substantially to an estimated 315 miles on the EPA cycle and 613 km on the EU cycle, making it the first to go beyond 300 miles and the longest range production electric vehicle by far.
The larger battery pack is also available on the Model X, making the world�s quickest SUV even faster. Model X P100D with Ludicrous mode accelerates to 60 mph in 2.9* seconds and travels up to 289 miles EPA and 542 km EU on a single charge. Model X is also a pure electric SUV and can seat up to seven adults.
Model S and Model X are engineered to be the safest cars on the road and to have the highest ratings from NHTSA. Both have access to the Tesla Supercharger network for the freedom to travel long distance for free. And every Tesla will improve over time with free over the air upgrades.
Tesla customers who have ordered a P90D Ludicrous, but not taken delivery, can upgrade to the 100 kWh pack for $10,000. Existing P90D Ludicrous owners can also upgrade to a 100 kWh pack, but for $20,000, as their used 90 kWh pack will have to be recycled.
While the P100D Ludicrous is obviously an expensive vehicle, we want to emphasize that every sale helps pay for the smaller and much more affordable Tesla Model 3 that is in development. Without customers willing to buy the expensive Model S and X, we would be unable to fund the smaller, more affordable Model 3 development.�
Aug 23, 2016
David29 That last paragraph seems unusual for a product announcement, isn't it? Almost makes it sound like a desperate plea for more buyers of the top product....Buy this or Model; 3 won't come!�
Aug 23, 2016
grommet Suck it up, 1%!
Tesla: Making the Earth a better place through higher profit margins.�
Aug 23, 2016
deonb I believe that's an attempt to try and fend off the expected: "Very expensive tax-funded car gets even more expensive" spin that some reporters put on everything Tesla.�
Aug 23, 2016
shokunin So the pack goes from 90-100kw which increases 11.1% but range goes from 250 to 289 for 15.6%?
11% battery increase for 15.6% more range, how they do that?�
Aug 23, 2016
deonb Hypothesis: A fixed part of the battery is reserved. The reserve does not increase if the battery size is increased. Hence more relative usable capacity?�
Aug 23, 2016
WATTS-UP The same way they gave me 25 extra miles per charge, with a programing update/change.�
Aug 23, 2016
dbsynergy My guess is they're using the new 20700 cells from the gigafactory instead of the 18650 from Panasonic. Lighter pack with higher energy density:
$5 Billion Tesla Gigafactory Worth $50 Billion, Analyst Estimates
�
Aug 23, 2016
MichaelATX Having taken delivery of a Model X, P90D(L) two months ago, I am a little disappointed the upgrade cost is so expensive for existing owners. I am new to the board and admit lack of knowledge with past upgrades, but is there any possibility that the cost of this upgrade will be cheaper a year from now? I probably would have paid the extra $10k for the P100D(L) initially, but $20k is too rich for me.�
Aug 23, 2016
tomas Plus, as we know, 90 ain't exactly 90 and 100 ain't exactly 100. So, between @deonb 's excellent point and actual kWh in the battery, the gain is disproportionate from the badge. Meanwhile, I'm still trucking along just fine with my 2012 P85. Still get 250+, and that's enough to navigate all supercharger routes.�
Aug 23, 2016
SteveWest I'm still waiting for my P85D ludicrous upgrade. Wonder if I can jump up to 100?�
Aug 23, 2016
spentan I was really interested in this, but $20k is a bit too rich as an upgrade cost.
I feel like for the existing owners, they should've made it $10k (same as new owners) or 5k as a retrofit like they did for P85D to Ludicrous�
Aug 23, 2016
K-MTG Is anyone gonna do it? $20k is like a M3 after tax credit, don't think it is worth it for 30 more miles.�
Aug 23, 2016
K-MTG I am not gonna cry about not getting the 100D but I will if I don't get autopilot 2.0�
Aug 23, 2016
pox Can a just a normal 85D get the 100 upgrade a non-90PL?�
Aug 23, 2016
ecrsail I don't understand why Ludicrous mode is a requirement to swap out a 90 kWh battery for a 100 kWh battery, especially as Ludicrous mode is advertised as a software enabled option.
As a result, I'm excited for Tesla but am disappointed that my P90D X does not have an upgrade path. The vehicle accelerates fast enough. I would enjoy the additional range however.�
Aug 23, 2016
grommet Wrong guess. Tesla has stated multiple times we won't be seeing that geometry until the Model 3.
Re: the P100D battery: "This was constrained to make three digits in the kilowatt levels but without fundamental improvements in the cell chemistry. But there will be cell chemistry improvements in future." However, the engineer suggested, the theoretical limit with current cell geometry and cell chemistry is close at hand. "There are also some modifications to the seats to maintain side-impact protection, since the P100D is slightly heavier, as well as to the wiring loom."�
Aug 23, 2016
Seattle Tom They also, I believe, raise the price of Autopilot. It's now $3000 or $3500 after delivery, which I believe is a $500 increase, right?
Or did I just miss that price change recently...�
Aug 23, 2016
DougH lmao�
Aug 23, 2016
Dazureus Ludicrous mode is more than just software and a badge. There's the inconel fuse that needs to be installed to allow the higher amperage draw too. From the press release, the 100 kWh battery upgrade also involves a new power harness. I wonder if PXXD owners need to pay 10k to upgrade to Ludicrous, then the 20K to upgrade to 100 kWh Ludicrous because the language of the prerequisites in the press release imply that.�
Aug 23, 2016
systemcrashed I agree here, already paid $10k to unlock ludicrous, my P90D battery is still new so recycling mine just means it can be put into a Tesla service vehicle, why $10k more when they get my like new battery back? $10k would be fair, my friend who I just referred will get the opportunity to upgrade to 100D for $10k but he will now have to add Ludicrous for another $10k which he wasn't planning to do originally, but is now getting just to be in the 100 club. I'm not even so concerned with the bump to 2.9 more interested in the range.�
Aug 23, 2016
earlyretirement On one hand I'm super excited to pick up my 90D on Monday. On another, I'm wondering if I would have paid the extra $$$ to get this instead. Probably not. I'm more interested in how AutoPilot 2.0 will figure into the mix after it comes available and if my 90D will be already wired for it?�
Aug 23, 2016
X Fan Different topic perhaps but 100D expected range would make a world of difference for me in my East Coast Trips. Where today I stop at Brandon, Ocala, Kingsland to get to Savannah in future i would only have to stop at Ocala.
40-50 extra miles make a big difference in longer trips....�
Aug 23, 2016
James Anders They know that the only ones who will do such an upgrade are those where money isn't a big factor.�
Aug 24, 2016
systemcrashed You are correct, an existing P90D would need the 10k upgrade to P90DL first before it is capable of getting the 100 pack for 20k. For existing orders, they would need to add ludicrous for 10k then 100 pack upgrade for 10k.
Here is some more fuzzy math for entertainment purposes only
http://jalopnik.com/the-134-500-tesla-p100d-could-save-tesla-owners-a-mass-1785660991?utm_source=taboola�
Aug 24, 2016
dailydriver I am waiting to hear back from Tesla on whether the 100 kWh pack upgrade will deliver the same new P100D ludicrous performance in my P90DL. I know for the P90D to P90DL retrofit Tesla makes the statement: "The retrofit will not be an exact equivalent performance spec as a new P90D."
The $20K is kind of stupid money for a marginal performance upgrade (and some increased range), but it is amazing performance and that amount is much cheaper than the hit I would take trading my 1 year old car in on a new one. I'm inclined to do the upgrade since Tesla needs some people to step up and help subsidize the cost for the Model 3.
�
Aug 24, 2016
systemcrashed If you throw in AP 2.0 retrofit, you are buying more time. Once that is released in the MX you'll still take a hit trading up in a year. But more importantly, where did you see that retrofit performance statement? My MX was off the production line when I called to add ludicrous, at the time, I was being told by SA it wasn't in production yet. I ended up getting it retrofitted at SC.�
Aug 24, 2016
dailydriver Tesla � Ludicrous Mode P90D�
Aug 24, 2016
systemcrashed Thanks, what other performance spec is there that changes besides acceleration? Seems like that is the same. Please update us when you hear from Tesla about what that "performance spec" is. My understanding was that the parts were the same,(fuses and drivetrain) it was only a software change and badge update.�
Aug 24, 2016
vigge50 I think it have been a mistake, they introduce ludicrous and 90 kWh battery at the same time so you can't have a orderd a P90D before. It was for those how have an P85D that they wouldn't get the same performance in a P85D as a new P90D. If you update a P90D to a P100D you should get the same performance I believe.�
Aug 24, 2016
dailydriver The big one would be the 1/4 mile time. While my car is extremely quick and a blast to drive, it is pretty disappointing that existing P90DL cars were never able to achieve the 10.9 second quarter mile time that Tesla claimed (only 11.4 and then around 11.2 when launch control came out).
Obviously the battery swap is the big change. From Tesla:
"Tesla customers who have ordered a P90D Ludicrous, but not taken delivery, can upgrade to the 100 kWh pack for $10,000. Existing P90D Ludicrous owners can also upgrade to a 100 kWh pack, but for $20,000, as their used 90 kWh pack will have to be recycled."�
Aug 24, 2016
systemcrashed According to Tesla, acceleration at passing speeds improves as well. My second question was referring to the initial Ludicrous retrofit upgrade "performance statement" Seems like @vigge50 may be correct in assuming that this "performance spec" statement was carried over from the Model S P85D to P85DL upgrade compared to a P90DL.�
Aug 24, 2016
vigge50 That have change, resent P90D have been clocked at 10.8 second several times, it have also been reported that new Tesla Model S P90D get out more hours power then older ones. This means that P100D would be able to go in the low 10s.
Tesla is secretly adding over 50 hp to the Model S P90D Ludicrous based on 3rd party testing, what does it mean?
Tesla Model S P90D with Ludicrous mode runs a quarter-mile in 10.8 seconds [Video]�
Aug 24, 2016
vandacca It makes no sense to me that existing orders can upgrade for $10k and delivered vehicles for $20k.
Delivered vehicles will be returning a barely used 90kwh pack, which must be worth something that should offset the cost of the upgrade.
Am I missing something here?�
Aug 24, 2016
Xminus6 I think you're missing Tesla's motivation, which is to sell new cars at a higher margin than selling battery pack upgrades. I think they're actively dis-incentivizing people who want to upgrade their current cars unless the profit margin is huge. They get more money from the 100kWh pack selling new cars or encouraging people to upgrade to that size than they do from replacing a battery pack for a car that's already sold.
I had some insight into this process when I bought my Model S in the middle of 2014. People were still waiting 6-8 months to get their cars specced and delivered back then. I had taken a couple test drives and my Sales Agent had called me a few times to follow up. We had basically decided that we would order the car but my wife's and my schedule didn't line up well enough to talk about it in earnest, so we just waited.
The Sales Agent called me out of the blue and said that they had some people "drop out of the queue" and if I wanted to order and confirm my order within the next two days I could have the car in 3 weeks. I thought to myself that it's a bit unfair to the people waiting for their cars for months, but it made sense from Tesla's perspective. Those people with existing orders would never know that people skip the queue. They've been given a delivery date already. Giving them a car a week earlier isn't going to make that much of a difference to them and certainly not profit Tesla any more. Using that incentive to push someone into ordering that was on the fence netted them way more money than delivering an existing order a week earlier.
I also think they're limiting the 100 kWh battery to the highest performing model because the extra capacity and the associated electronics to support it would make a non P version of the 100D faster than the current 90D and likely too close in performance to a current P90D. They'd rather people bump up their order from a P90D to P100DL than accept close-enough performance and drop their order down from a P90DL to a 100D.�
Aug 24, 2016
ohmman I think the difficulty of doing something with a "barely used" pack is one of the problems. Tesla likely can't redeploy it. They don't have a mechanism in place for reselling used packs, as far as I know. So barely used or not, it's going to have to go through some disassembly and recycling process, which is pretty wasteful in resources and time.
I don't know that the difference is $10k worthy, but I do understand that there's a big difference between an undelivered battery pack and a delivered battery pack. Maybe it's something like going to a restaurant. If your server places a dish in front of you and you noodle around in it with your fork, you can't send it back and expect them to give it to another diner.
Actually, that analogy is terrible. But I still think that the fact that someone has used the pack at all makes things very complicated. There is likely to be a day, once the Gigafactory is truly operational, that they can rapidly recycle packs for much cheaper, but we're not living in that time yet.�
Aug 24, 2016
systemcrashed Here is a thought. When and if a battery needs replacement due to a warrantied issue, is Tesla obligated to replace with a new battery pack? Can't they replace with a refurbished pack? This could be an outlet for their swapped packs with some discount passed to new P90DL owners who want to trade up. This could also save shipping costs to and from high volume SCs. Btw, your analogy wasn't that bad, except I would not try to noodle around with my battery with a fork unless it was a plastic fork...�
Aug 24, 2016
tomas Almost all battery and drivetrain replacements are with remanufactured (used) units�
Aug 24, 2016
AnalysiZ If people who have not taken delivery can order the 100 for 10K AND take delivery and drive it until the upgrade is available...
So... what is the difference with the batteries of those that have already taken delivery?
I think none. The only difference is that they can cancel at a cost of 2K and order a new one, so 10K will keep them on board.
Those that have already taken delivery cannot... so they have to pay 20K
For those that argue that 20K IS the difference a new customer has to pay: P90D without L = 115K P100DL = 135K... so 10K for L and 10K 100 kWh.... as I already have payed for L... the price difference should be 10K.
The last 4 weeks since delivery have been wonderful, but not worth 10K extra.
Sorry for being negative / disappointed ....
It might also be because it adds up to some other inconveniences.....�
Aug 24, 2016
ohmman Is this the way they're planning to roll it out? I didn't understand that it was.�
Aug 24, 2016
MP3Mike They used to replace with refurbished packs, but people complained that they were potentially getting older/abused packs when they had babied theirs. Since then it seems they only repair packs: they give you a loaner pack while your pack is sent off to be repaired. So your original pack comes back to you.
Since they don't currently offer other upgrades what are they going to do with these returned/used 90kWh packs? They could use them for loaner packs, but I don't know that they need many more of them... So they will likely get torn apart to use for parts to repair warranty issues on other packs. I think it would be best if they would offer upgrades using "refurb" packs, but I don't know that they would have enough packs available for the potential demand... (It is a chicken/egg problem.)�
Aug 24, 2016
AnxietyRanger Yes, it does seem it is the way - at least for orders soon to be manufactured. I was told the same thing today when I upgraded to the P100DL: first the P90DL is delivered (in my case, sometime this year I guess) and then upgraded around early 2017 for the 10k to P100DL as long as this is specced before delivery.
Here's my experience, plus a separate one from the U.S. for Model S:
�
Aug 24, 2016
Jurnimon
They could refurbish them for the Model 3.�
Aug 24, 2016
mahulkp I have a X P90DL produced and now shipping to EU for delivery in September. The DS informed that the upgrade will retrofitted, probably in the beginning of 2017 for the cost of equal $ 10k if ordered before delivery of the car. So they will definitely get used 90Kwh batteries in return for $ 10k.�
Aug 24, 2016
AnalysiZ Yes. One ordered P90D without L and can upgrade for 20K* to 100 kWh INCL. L and one other that already ordered L, can get it for 10K*. They have not taken delivery yet, but can take delivery AND can drive until the pack comes available (see also @mahulkp )
I already took delivery (P90DL) and will have to pay 20K* because I've already driven for 4 weeks...
But... what is the difference between my pack and theirs?
(the * is because in Euro's the prices are little bit different, but the big picture stays the same)
My opinion is that they should make all retrofits for P90DL to P100DL 10K...
It has nothing to do with the refurbishing (as they will have the same problem with the ones not delivered yet)
So... the only reason I can think of is because people can refuse delivery / cancel and order a new one.
That does not make me happy.�
Aug 24, 2016
vandacca The difference is this: for a very short period of time, for those who haven't receive their vehicles yet, they will provide a "rain check" for the 100kwh pack. Yes, Tesla will have to swallow the extra cost, but they don't want to make this a habit, so if you've already received your vehicle, your out of luck (or SOL as we say here in North America).
Yes, I'm a wee bit disappointed, since I've had my vehicle for less than 2 months. However, this upgrade is likely using existing cells and not the newer 20700, so I'd prefer to wait for a higher density pack with less weight.�
Aug 24, 2016
ohmman Based on @mahulkp and @AnalysiZ's posts, I stand corrected. In those cases, I'm not sure why Tesla is allowing it. I wonder if that only applies overseas.
I still stand by my assertion that there's a big difference between an unused pack and a used pack. My feeling is that there should indeed be a greater charge for upgrading a 90 pack that has already been delivered vs. one that hasn't been delivered. I do not feel that they should allow owners to receive their vehicles with 90 packs, drive them while waiting for the upgrade, and still pay the same price as those who never had their vehicles (@mahulkp's situation). That's not to say I begrudge anyone for how it has turned out. I just feel that the way I'm laying it out is more fair.�
Aug 24, 2016
Vitold I think you're right.
"Packard Bell NEC has agreed to pay $3.5 million to the federal government to settle a "whistle-blower" lawsuit that accused the electronics firm of using recycled parts in personal computers that were sold as new."
Packard Bell Settles Suit Alleging Use of Recycled Parts
(I remember similar complaints about Dell and Gateway but Google found above first.)
Another example would be "Do Not Remove Under Penalty of Law" labels:
"During the late 1800s and early 1900s, government officials became concerned about the materials manufacturers were using to stuff mattresses. To cut costs, some manufacturers "recycled" old, used bedding materials and stuffed them into "new" mattresses. "
Why Do Mattresses Have 'Do Not Remove' Tags?�
Aug 24, 2016
RubberToe Still would like to know exactly what happens to the battery packs that Tesla receives back. Anyone know?
RT�
Aug 24, 2016
ohmman All I know is what they've said in the blog post, which is that it will be "recycled":
�
Aug 24, 2016
travwill Not quite sure I follow this thread fully as there actually is no 100D option yet right. It has to only be for existing or new customers that get the P100DL. There is not even an indication that a regular S/X 90D will ever have the option to easily upgrade at any cost to a 100D. They may likely come out with a 100D perhaps, but after they target the more expensive P100DLs first it seems for a while, or never is more likely.�
Aug 24, 2016
jason1466 I'll offer 5K for a used 90 pack to bump my X75D to 284 miles range. Kidding. Sort of.�
Aug 24, 2016
AnalysiZ 3 X's have been delivered in the Netherlands so far, and 1 (maybe 2 in Belgium)...
So... these will have to pay 20K instead of 10K that all the rest will have to pay.
The last 4 weeks I have been driving 3000 kms, at least 2000 of those were promotional for Tesla (Roadtrip / visiting Stores to support positive salesmen / testdrives as there are only a few available from Tesla)... It has been a lot of fun! I felt very privileged, and therefore "obliged" to give something back... Even rescheduled my agenda for Tesla promotional activities.
If I would have had delivery next week, it would have saved me 10K (I think 11100 Euro's).
Well... for 10K I would have considered it, especially because of the range for roadtrips.
For 20K no way. So, maybe it will save me the 10K I would be willing to spend in the end?�
Aug 24, 2016
Epymian As I said earlier, how cool if we could have the old pack put inside a power wall unit for ourselves when we upgrade. That is the ultimate recycling, especially for my 3 month old pack, and makes it more economically reasonable.�
Aug 24, 2016
MP3Mike I don't think so, the Model 3 is going to use a new cell format as well as pack size/configuration. So I'm not sure any part of a Model S pack would be used to build a Model 3 pack.�
Aug 24, 2016
MP3Mike I'm sure they are doing that because they don't want to hold up the deliveries of all of the cars that people want to get upgraded to a P100DL until the new batteries are actually available in QTY. (Especially if they are already in the process of being shipped somewhere.)
But if the estimates on the site are accurate someone who orders a brand new P100DL could get it as early as next month.
So use their limited availability of the 100kWh packs, ~200 week, for new orders to push demand/delervies up, and then once demand for that falls they will use the 100kWh for upgrades. Once upgrades are mostly complete they will probably make the 100 kWh packs available for 100Ds. (I figure the timeline will be squishy depending on actual demand.)�
Aug 24, 2016
PianoProdigy I'll probably go for it even at $20k assuming I can get all the upgraded autopilot tech.�
Aug 24, 2016
Jurnimon That is interesting then. Can they reclaim any of the use materials to use for net new batteries?�
Aug 24, 2016
systemcrashed What is the price of a 90D battery if you had to buy one?
Also noticed the 0-60 time for the P90D now shows 3.7 it went down a tenth of a second. I wonder if this was a software tweak. Ludicrous is not offered as an option on a new P90D either.�
Aug 24, 2016
travwill The P90D seems a little duplicative now. I would think they would just offer the (60D-75D)/90D/100DL now so they just have 3 models technically.�
Aug 24, 2016
ModelXBoy The early buyers of the Model X take the most hit in term of quality, price and availability. Technically the Model X started to ship out in massive quantities in March, this month is also where all the major quality problems are found on the Xs. About 5 month after, the P100D was introduced. We as early adaptors had really helped Tesla not only to fix quality problems, patient problem, and now the pocket problem! I will continue to support Tesla and willing to upgrade to P100D with Ludicrous Mode on my X, but think retroactively I totally regret getting the X so early. But it is what it is, we trust Tesla and we did help Tesla accelerating sustainable energy for this planet and we did help Tesla to achieve its financial goals to build the Model 3, there should be no regret.
In the end, we have to shed off $20G to upgrade a brand new car that were outdated in five month, personally I am not too happy of it but this is a decision made by Elon and I respect that fully. The one part I am pretty sad about is the ability to upgrade P90DL to P100DL but not available for customers with 90D to upgrade. What happens to those buyers? Getting an ultra expensive car that went instantly obsolete? Trade the X in and get a new X in just couple of month of owning it? This could a problem.�
Aug 24, 2016
ohmman You are making the same mistake made by many before you in using the words "obsolete" and "outdated". My 90D is still one of the very few electric SUVs on the planet. In my eyes, that makes it better than all of the ICE SUVs out there. So while there are newer vehicles with more range or more speed, I think obsolete and outdated are poor descriptors of the situation.
My P85 Model S, delivered in the beginning of 2014 without AP and many of the bells and whistles, is still one of the best cars on the road. On any given day, I rank it above pretty much every non-Tesla I pass on the road. Some would say it's outdated, but I would strongly disagree. I'll tell you what's outdated - that brand new Corvette with temporary tags I passed today.�
Aug 24, 2016
ModelXBoy Total agreed! Well said!�
Aug 24, 2016
MP3Mike Sure, once they get the battery recycling operation going at the Gigafactory they can recover all of the base minerals/materials to make new batteries. But that seems like a huge waste, and very in-green, when the, barely used, batteries could be put to good use either for stationary storage or to upgrade an existing Model S to a larger capacity/more performance. (For example to replace a ~4-5 year old version A battery that can't even Supercharge at full speed. Or to replace the 60 kWh batteries in the original 40s/60s that come in for CPO to make them software upgradable.)
Hey, maybe that is what they will do with the returned batteries from the upgrades. Any 40/60, or 85 with a Ver. A battery, Model S that get returned to Tesla will get a 90kWh battery put in it as part of the CPO process. That would give a huge boost in sale price for essentially a free battery, a software change, and a few dollars of badge changes.�
Aug 24, 2016
Reeler They are offering the $10K upgrade so that folks don't walk from their delivery. Doing that is only $2.5K so this saves all those unclosed sales. The batteries will be broken down to go into power walls and industrial applications is my guess.�
Aug 24, 2016
Xminus6 Tesla is just as much a tech company as a car company. People who are in tech or even enthusiasts know that you're buying the features of capabilities of what is available at that time with some limited upgradability going forward. Just like in technology, the introduction of new features and capabilities does not retroactively remove functionality from the thing you currently own. I got my car a month or two before it was revealed that AP hardware was installed. Do I regret not getting AP included on my car? Sure but I don't really dwell on it and I certainly have no expectation that Tesla owes me some upgrade path on my car. I'll likely upgrade soon to a Model X with AP2.
I got the features I wanted at the time and what I expected to be included in the price that I agreed to pay. People are going to have to get used to the constant iteration of Tesla's cars. While it can cause you to get caught in an unfortunate position in relation to features introduced without warning, it's also the same philosophy that enables Tesla to significantly improve the car that you currently own through updates and feature improvements.�
Aug 24, 2016
ubringliten I am another owner that is pretty bummed out. I got my X P90DL 3 weeks ago and drove about 200 miles so far. My new car just became a couple of years old in the quickest time possible. I don't get why Tesla did this. The X just came out in March and there's an already an upgrade? They could have kept it for Model S and wait a couple of years to upgrade for X.�
Aug 24, 2016
K-MTG What value do you think a $110k (before taxes and incentives) would hold in 3-4 years?
I am fine with the M3 being refreshed monthly since it is so cheap to replace, $20k is like 95% M3 after tax credit. The main reason I purchased my X instead of a lease is that I believed Tesla's hold a strong resell value.�
Aug 24, 2016
MP3Mike Are you kidding? There would be more of an uproar about that. After all the Model X is the most expensive Tesla model so it should get the features first. (Like the ventilated seats, rear cup holders, bioweapon filtering, etc.) If anything the Model X needs the 100 kWh battery more than the Model S. (Though it would be best in the non P versions.)
It will make a huge difference for people towing a trailer. (I wouldn't be surprised if the Model X is available as a 100D before the Model S has the option for a 100D version.)
And you have the option of upgrading your Model X to be the same as the ones that are shipping now. (And I think the P90DLs will hold their value well, as they are less expensive than the P100Ds, have most of the benefitr of the P100D, and are no longer available for purchase.)�
Aug 24, 2016
AnxietyRanger I agree that is the reason they are likely doing it this way. When I read Tesla's reasoning, I too expected it to be like vandacca said that they'd just swap the battery prior to delivery and re-use the old pack as new - or for cars (like mine) not yet manufactured, simply swap at the factory. Their wording certainly suggested it: "Tesla customers who have ordered a P90D Ludicrous, but not taken delivery, can upgrade to the 100 kWh pack for $10,000. Existing P90D Ludicrous owners can also upgrade to a 100 kWh pack, but for $20,000, as their used 90 kWh pack will have to be recycled."
Tesla's wording suggested only the existing owners' packs needed to be recycled, but in fact it turns out many (all?) non-delivered upgrades will need recycling as well. This makes the apology at the end more appear more multi-faceted, though, they are probably apologizing to existing owners as well as new buyers whose Ludicrous Tesla dreams just went up in price... It is significantly more expensive to get into a top-of-the-line Tesla today. "While the P100D Ludicrous is obviously an expensive vehicle, we want to emphasize that every sale helps pay for the smaller and much more affordable Tesla Model 3 that is in development. Without customers willing to buy the expensive Model S and X..."
In a sense, there are three, maybe four levels of customers here:
1) the new/unconfirmed orders that can just click in their new selection and will likely get the pack first as the factory will simply source and build them that way
2) the confirmed P90DL customers with manufacturing and/or delivery still coming up, that have the option to upgrade at price similar to new order but will get theirs retrofitted a bit later (arguably good value for money still, because Tesla eats the recycling cost and you get a car to drive without delays)
3) the existing P90DL owners who can upgrade but at a significantly higher cost, this is still a privileged group as they are being catered to, but I can see how it might not seem that way compared to the previous groups
4) non-P90DL owners/buyers, who may have some upgrade paths down the road, but not yet - when 100D is widely available, I would expect 90D's to be replaced by it and existing ones getting a pack upgrade option (unless the 100 kWh pack is too costly to replace a mid-high-end model and they'll just keep the 90D)
The fact that, in the end, there even are customers in the second and third layers is exceptional in the annals of recent automotive history. The traditional retrofits offered by car manufacturers have been seriously limited in scope and mostly minor cosmetic and/or non-factory-install quality stuff. Tesla so far has had a different approach and, personally, with having had a P90DL (not yet manufactured) on order, the upgrade to P100D yesterday was a welcome option.
But I also understand there are shades of grey here and some understandable critique as well. The lack of model years (or even a secondary mid-year referesh point that some manufacturers have) combined with the delays in the manufacturing process, compounded by Tesla's international network for those of us abroad, certainly means increased risks for the buyer of not knowing how your new car will compare to the state-of-the-art when you get it.
It is, in reality, much easier to estimate this with other companies with clear demarkation lines. I mean, there are European Model X buyers who locked in their order in March (with a reservation made in e.g. 2013-2014) and are only getting their cars now. Many of these early adopters certainly went for the P90DL or maybe some didn't, but would have taken the plunge with a P100D... It would have been hard to estimate in March that this would happen.
However, again shades of grey, this is of course mitigated in part by Tesla's exceptional willingness at providing retrofits. So the good news is some of them can upgrade at price difference and all P90DL owners can upgrade. But for the guy who took delivery a few days prior, the price difference can sting of course, and for those who went with, say, the 90D for maximum range as advertised, the current retrofit options are non-existent (that can change down the line).
So, a complex question, certainly.
Judging by Tesla's launch history - unless the 90 pack remains for some cost reason, e.g. 100 pack is too expensive to make for anything but a special Ludicrous model - I would expect the 90D/P90D to fade out eventually in favour of a 60D/75D/100D/P100D line-up. Historically Tesla has kept some options for some time to appease both current buyers as well as part logistics. Once those hurdles are cleared, they'll likely clean up the line-up to whatever is their current new target for it.�
Aug 25, 2016
systemcrashed I was thinking this same thing, by removing the option to buy the P90DL now, an uniqueness has been established. Hopefully this helps retain its value. On the other hand, the reason we are a bit bummed at this awesome announcement is that Tesla has not held to an annual new model cycle. It is hard for prospective buyers to gauge when they will "jump in" bc they want the latest and best Tesla has to offer for $110k+. Those that did jump in feel the new release was too soon, and to top it off will cost double to get. I'm not saying that delaying the release of new tech that is available now is better, but just not what early adopters are used to. So in 6 months we should expect a new 150kw pack made up of new 21700 cells with a 0-60 time of 2.6s and a range of 350miles (Tesla, take my pre-order now).�
Aug 25, 2016
vangogh Yes...$20k is a bit much for a small improvement...and what happens when the P125D comes out? I think I will stick with the P90D and upgrade to the best available when my battery needs replacement in 8-10 years (?)....But the P100D model name is very nice...�
Aug 25, 2016
7racer How do we go about getting in the list to upgrade?? My SC didn't know and suggested an email to sales.�
Aug 25, 2016
shokunin This is the Tesla lifecycle, it's been repeated over and over and the only way to get off the merry-go-round is to get over it and enjoy the car. I got my P85 in 2012 some 5 months later, P85+, a few more months then came parking sensors and folding mirrors, and on and on..
P85D being deliveries in december 2014,
July 2015 then the P90Dv1
2016, P90Dv2 Upgraded 90 pack w/ more power
April 2016, Refreshed Facia,
June 2016 P90Dv3 upgraded 90 pack w/ even more power
August 2016, P100D What's next?
May 2017 and 21700 cells into new packs and the P110D and a AP 2.0.
I still love driving my 2012 P85 even without the latest bells and whistles. For me personally, I'm waiting on AP 2.0 to upgrade.�
Aug 25, 2016
ModelXBoy Let's hope it's available for older Xs to upgrade to AP 2.0. Finger crossed!�
Aug 25, 2016
DougH Agreed.�
Aug 25, 2016
K-MTG Make it FREE as well�
Aug 25, 2016
Martin VanB My model X is two months old. When I heard about the new battery pack I was a little disappointed.
Yet after thinking about it for a while, I realized i'm driving a pretty amazing car.
I'd rather be driving the car now and be happy than wait for the next latest and greatest all over again.�
Aug 25, 2016
ohmman Chasing the latest and greatest carrot is an unsatisfying venture, especially when you've already got a carrot.�
Aug 25, 2016
ggnykk The upgrade from regular 90D to 100D will be available in a few months, most likely. This is when the non-performance 100D will start shipping.�
Aug 25, 2016
AnxietyRanger That would be supported by history, of course. It seems very likely the 90D and P90D will hover around only as long as logistical considerations warrant - and then disappear in favor of 100 pack.
However, I guess we can not completely discount the possibility that the 100 kWh pack is a difficult and expensive engineering feat with the current cell/pack (and whats the talk about the weight needing different seats/suspension etc.?), in which case keeping the 90 significantly longer until they can bring that cost down could be a (remote) option.
But yeah, I think most likely Tesla is merely looking to balance three things here:
- Limited initial production availability of the 100 pack to begin with, make the best of that
- Maximize revenue/margins in the initial demand which can absorb more cost than perhaps sustainably could, offer alternatives only after this demand is exhausted
- Clear out existing orders for 90D/P90D without obsoleting them (and offer an upgrade for P90DL) so as to minimize disturbance to current order pipeline
It seems likely the 90s get replaced by 100s in some months time. But I guess there is a small chance that Tesla might try to direct the best range crowd to the P100D longer than usual.�
Aug 26, 2016
systemcrashed I agree with this. Although, for some, the satisfaction comes from the short lived moment with nothing on the end of the stick, as brief as that may be.�
Aug 26, 2016
PianoProdigy I admittedly didn't read every post in this thread, but I wonder if Tesla requires that you "surrender" your 90D battery packs in the $20k purchase price. Couldn't we resell our 90D packs to someone with a 75D back?�
Aug 26, 2016
systemcrashed Especially since they are charging us 10k to recycle it.�
Aug 26, 2016
jason1466 I would make you an offer, but I bet Tesla would not go along with it, and then what to do with a barely used 75 pack? What we need is for Tesla to make a refurbished upgrade pack price for 75 to 90 and later 75 to 100, 90 to 100.�
Aug 26, 2016
ohmman My guess is they're pricing in the surrender of the old pack, and they won't allow you to keep it. However, I don't think there's official word on it yet.
I think that was unfortunate phrasing on their part. The better way to phrase it would have been "..since we have to have built two packs instead of just one." I think that's the more appropriate way to look at it.
I think a common mistake people are making is thinking that the 100kWh pack costs $10k. It doesn't. It's a $10k premium over the built in price of a 90kWh pack. So if the "retail" price ends up being something more like $30k, then trading in the old pack becomes an obvious necessity.�
Aug 26, 2016
systemcrashed You are exactly right, I just didn't push my tongue into my cheek enough for you to see it
I've asked this above, but do we know the cost of a 90kw pack? Can it be deduced from other info that is readily available.
The cost of the upgrade is still a sore spot for some new P90DL owners who have only a couple months use or less on their packs. I know that Tesla has extended the lower 10k upgrade fee to those who will be taking delivery soon and let them drive on their 90 packs for a "few" months until the 100 is ready. How is that any different from someone who just took delivery before the announcement?�
Aug 26, 2016
brianman In case it makes you feel better...
There is NO upgrade option from 85 to 100 at this time -- an any price. That's the response I got directly from Tesla via email.�
Aug 26, 2016
mkjayakumar $1000 / kWh upgrade price looks a little to steep.�
Aug 26, 2016
outie The difference is that one can refuse delivery. Tesla is just making good to those owners so they don't refuse delivery which will probably cost them more if they refuse delivery.�
Aug 26, 2016
DougH Good luck with that.�
Aug 26, 2016
ohmman As @outie wisely points out, the difference is that Tesla has considered the difference and made a business decision. If Tesla delivered P90DLs and requested a $20k fee to upgrade, owners would decline delivery, lose $2500, and order again for only a $10k upgrade. They'd net $7500. Tesla, meanwhile, would be left with high margin inventory vehicles. This avoids all of that.
On the pack price, I don't think we know. If someone else has tried to back it out, I'd love to hear their analysis.
Also, sorry I missed the sarcasm. I'm usually a pretty good judge of that! Too much seriousness in my head today, I guess...�
Aug 27, 2016
systemcrashed I think there is more happening here than just avoiding a certain percentage of dropped orders. Tesla has also incentivized those who ordered a P90D to upgrade to P90DL for an additional 10k first before being eligible for a 100kw pack. That's why only Ludicrous P100D's are offered first.
Maybe someone at Tesla can think of an ingenious path for the barely used 90kw packs without having to take loss, therefore incentivizing the non ludicrous P90D owners to spend another 10k to be eligible for a 10k battery swap. Essentially, reducing the the cost of the upgrade across the board for existing owners, which would net more upgrades.�
Aug 27, 2016
vandacca How about they re-brand the 90kwh packs as 75kwh and price it the same as a 60kwh?�
Aug 27, 2016
systemcrashed Tesla could develop a battery consignment, Owners would be presented with a choice to upgrade at a reduced cost across all battery sizes. Packs are interchangeable between MX and S right?�
Aug 27, 2016
systemcrashed This is the difference from Tesla's point of view but not the consumer.�
Aug 27, 2016
Coolcarx There seems to be no wiggle room after you take delivery. Picked up p90d on Saturday and asked on Tuesday about 100 upgrade. 20,000.00 since delivery was taken. Looks like I will be getting my 7,000.00 deposit money back. Looks like they will lose around 200,000.00 in future purchases from me. Sorry Tesla.�
Aug 27, 2016
systemcrashed And therein lies the problem...
If Tesla can't work out solving both sides of this problem then no one can.�
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