Apr 19, 2016
Noah I ordered my Model X in July, 2015.
On January 25th I configured the Model X. I knew exactly what I wanted, except for the 20" wheels vs the 22" wheels. I called Tesla.
"Did the Performance tires have the same wear issues as the Model S?" Yes.
"The same road noise?" Yes.
"Can Snow chains be used with them?" No.
"Do they still have the range hit?" Yes.
The look of the 22's were too tantalizing, and I haven't had wear issues on my Model S, and a 5-6 mile range it isn't that big of a deal. So I ordered the new Model X on January 25th.
On Friday April 15th, the delivery manager called and let me know I could pick up my new Model X on Tuesday April 19th (today). I was so excited!
On Saturday April 16th, I discovered Tesla added a notice to the Model X Design Studio (presumably when it opened to the public). That the 22" Performance wheels decrease range by 10-15%... or up to 39 miles!
I currently arrive to my main destination in my Model S with 20 Miles remaining. This means the Model X as I configured it will not make this trip!
I feel like I purchased a vehicle with 250 miles of range, and was delivered one with 210 miles of range. The difference is significant.
Tesla gave me two options:
1. They would switch the wheels with another vehicle at their service center after taking delivery, and I would be out the $4500.
2. I can buy a set of 20" wheels for $4000, AND be out the $4500 then sell the 22" wheels for whatever I can get.
Perhaps my own pride is clouding my judgement, though this felt totally unfair. So I denied pickup. I'm now totally depressed.�
Apr 19, 2016
Uncle Paul Take delivery. Someone will want to trade their 20" wheels (plus cash) for your 22's.
While those larger wheels look great, they will indeed reduce range.
Understand this is disturbing news, but there are lots of work arounds.�
Apr 19, 2016
ElectricLove Isn't there a 7-day guarantee period? You could just return the car, you probably waited a long time to get it, I understand, but this is a problem their oversight created for you, they've earned the return and you should just return it to them and start process of buying another... They are exhibiting poor customer service, they aren't being unscrupulous perhaps but certainly not the type of customer service we all should expect from TESLA...
By the way, you will make it home just fine, just don't use climate control and go 55mph and your range will be fantastic!�
Apr 19, 2016
Spidy He sounds more pissed that Tesla didn't offer a simple solution not the overall lack of thereof.
It seems like it would have been easy to change these new tires for some other ones for a small fee or maybe the $500 change fee and refund the difference or credit it for future service, especially considering the reason he wants the to change them.�
Apr 19, 2016
TheQ Tesla customer service is really sucking it......they should have swapped the tires and credited you the $4,500. Thats how you make a customer happy, and earn future business, any other car dealer would do the same in 2 seconds.�
Apr 19, 2016
Drivin Yeah, this seems a bit bizarre.�
Apr 19, 2016
goneskiian What is bizarre is that this is such a surprise to so many people. Lager wheels will have the same effect on ANY automobile.
Effects of Upsized Wheels and Tires Tested - Tech Dept.�
Apr 19, 2016
shokunin You should be able to easily trade your 22's for 20's + cash. Not ideal, but worth considering. I doubt they have wheels in stock to be able to just swap them.�
Apr 19, 2016
Noah It's probably too late now, though that is a good idea. Is there a forum to find someone to trade with?�
Apr 19, 2016
Noah Yes I also felt it was bizarre. I love not going to a dealer, and after buying a Model S my wife said she will never go through the sales process at a dealer again. Though if this happened at a Mercedes (or similar) dealer, I have no doubt this could have been resolved... Even if it was simply a credit toward a future purchase. Perhaps this is the dark side of not having a dealership.
Well, Tesla is attracting a lot of people who up until now have had zero interest in cars. These people have no common car sense, and must rely on Tesla to educate them. I'm guilty as charged. (also thanks for the link!)�
Apr 19, 2016
Drivin Well, from the article, they clearly state:
1. Tesla does NOT use fuel. They use electricity. So they are implying that electricity is less efficient than fuel since Tesla says it is a 10-15% decrease!
2. Tesla does not show that degradation in 0-60 which totally shoots their argument out of the water and proves that electric vehicles are superior to fuel-based vehicles.�
Apr 19, 2016
goneskiian Great point. I have noticed this since so many new owners have raved about how fun Tesla's are to drive, especially ones coming from more of the "a car is an appliance" type vehicles.�
Apr 19, 2016
goneskiian What's your point exactly? Same physics applies. Maybe they tested the 0-60 with the 22" wheels so it's even quicker with the 20"ers? ;-)�
Apr 19, 2016
TerribleOne923 I can't imagine that it is too late. That would be incredible is Tesla refused to let you take delivery after thinking things through.�
Apr 19, 2016
flar Actually, the fact that it has a larger impact is due to better efficiency. ICE cars have so many sources of loss that making one aspect less efficient is lost in the noise. Electric cars start from such a higher point in the efficiency curve that anything impacts them by a lot more.
It's also the reason that ICE cars get more fuel economy on the highway despite a huge increase in aerodynamic drag - because they are already wasting so much energy that the drag from the wind disappears in the face of improvements from steady state output from the combustion engine. Electric cars (and hybrids) were the first to see drag cut seriously into efficiency as well and the first to show less efficiency at highway speeds compared to city driving. If you want an extreme case of this, consider electric motorcycles which have such bad aerodynamics that they can get half the highway range compared to their city range, but an ICE motorcycle gets better mileage on the highway, because it mostly can't even discern the drag from all other sources of loss until it gets well above highway speeds.�
Apr 19, 2016
Olle Interestingly enough the Model S range calculator Model S | Tesla Motors shows only a 2% range decrease on the S 90D going from 19" to 21" and on the S P90D there is a 5% range decrease. Could it be because of staggered rear tires on P90D? How can the X get 10-15% decrease, almost an order of magnitude worse than on an S 90D? You would think that its higher aerial drag of an X would make the rolling resistance a smaller part of energy consumption than it is on the S, no? Are the 22 tires massively wider than the 20s?
The old P85+ for those who remember actually gave more range with staggered than the regular P85�
Apr 19, 2016
S'toon I really don't understand this "The bigger wheels looked better" argument. I really can't see the difference.�
Apr 19, 2016
Brandon332 I don't understand. "Do they still have the range hit?" Yes. I interpret this as a confirmation that they decrease range. Regardless, you ordered the wheels, take responsibility and go get the car. Or pout and let them resell it, but I don't think Tesla did anything wrong.�
Apr 19, 2016
BigBlueX Personal preference. For me, I DESPERATELY wanted to click the option for those dark turbine 22" wheels, but the 10-15% hit in range was just too much. Unfortunately they don't offer the dark turbine wheels in a 20". (Maybe I can get them painted!!)
�
Apr 19, 2016
DougH 39 miles WOW!. So if I order a 75D with 22" than the range will be around 200.
If you do not take delivery aren't you out your $5K dep anyway?.....id take delivery and trade or sell the large wheels.�
Apr 19, 2016
RichardL Exactly my thought on reading this first time - you asked if they effected range, you were told yes, but you went ahead anyway, then refused delivery because of what you had been previously told. What am I missing?�
Apr 19, 2016
proven I know it's personal preference but the 21/22 wheels on the S/X make the car's proportions look weird to me. I like the smaller wheels better.�
Apr 19, 2016
TaoJones Well, since you asked... You're missing the fact that he had confirmation from Tesla that there would be a range hit similar in nature to the S (presumably 21" vs 19" in the case of the S, and clearly 22" vs 20" for the X). Then, without direct notice, that deficit changed to a range hit untenable for his circumstance, compounded by a $4500 penalty *or* a $2500 penalty or whatever it is for walking away from his deposit at the time of configuration/confirmation.
Having said all of that, it does seem that the most cost-effective solution would be to take delivery, swap wheels, and to sell the hardly-used 22s for all the money he can get. Presumably his net loss, absent the cost of his time and the negative delivery experience, will be less than the cost of walking away from his deposit.�
Apr 19, 2016
liuping Performance tires are sticker, the exact opposite of low rolling resistance.
So the I think the difference seems quite high because the 20's are 5% better than "normal" tires and the 22" performance tire are 5-10% worse due to being bigger and higher rolling resistance.�
Apr 19, 2016
Ryan MF Cutting off the nose to spite the face comes to mind.�
Apr 19, 2016
Drivin Exactly.
Tesla should not have done this.
Rather than cutting off their nose by asking for that money, they should have realized that what they said (similar to the S) was not what they delivered, so a simple swap rather that creating an unhappy customer who talks about this experience.�
Apr 19, 2016
P90D First, I'd say you were shaving far too close for comfort and setting yourself up for range anxiety overdose.
Second, I'd say you made the right choice to quit the order -- Tesla has no shortage of people waiting behind you to say "my lucky day!" and you should simply leverage your situation to order a quick replacement with a better spec. I full well intend to update to a P100D as soon as possible. Tesla should build a Model X "Tahoe Edition" (capable of getting from Fremont to Lake Tahoe without stopping in Sacramento or Truckee. I want to tow a trailer and was "ass-u-ming" that a 250+ mile range would probably do the trick give or take, pluses and minuses, swings and roundabouts, but no, the X can't make it from SF to Truckee without praying to tip over summit of the Sierras near Kingsvale and roll into town on electron fumes ...) I was in Truckee replenishing after the trip in 100 degree weather and another X arrived ... on a flatbed ... flat bat had ta flat bed ... ran out of juice somewhere "almost made it" ... the sooner there's a P100D or P150D, the better.
I think the solution is a trailer with its own traction motors and 100 kWh storage.�
Apr 19, 2016
Nototrader Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? Range hit? Yes. Duh. I love that people want to blame everyone but themselves. So funny. And then all the people here that support this ridiculousness.�
Apr 19, 2016
Drivin Yeah, just like all those people who complained about the seats not folding or the $500 lease.�
Apr 19, 2016
AnOutsider Yes. but I can attest first-hand, that Tesla was not originally stating 10% range hit on the 22's. I can see how he'd be upset.
I'm amazed Tesla doesn't just swap the wheels and make the sale. X's don't exactly seem to be flying off the shelves. Still, OP, I'd take delivery and sell the wheels. Maybe get you some 19's to add a buffer.�
Apr 19, 2016
anticitizen13.7 That's what I would have done.
With so few Model X on the road right now, selling the 22" wheels might be tough, but as with the Model S, there will eventually be a market for them. There are going to be people who want 20" wheels for winter and 22" wheels for summer.�
Apr 19, 2016
Vitold Tesla makes people buy sight-unseen (Model X just made it to the showrooms!). Doing business this way is bound to backfire sometimes.
39 mile range hit is substantial and this info was not available when ordering, therefore, is it really that surprising that some find it unacceptable?. Too bad service center could not accommodate him - I suspect that Tesla service centers have their hands tied since this year Tesla is on notice to conserve cash.�
Apr 19, 2016
Ulmo ^^^ This. I bolded the correct text. This is the issue. Prior to me having my Mercedes, I was basically not a car person. Then, I was forced to be one for my Benz. But, once I became aware that Tesla was succeeding at electric cars, I absolutely became a car person who is not just a car person but a person who LIKES cars. So, things changed dramatically because of Tesla. I can clearly see that a lot of other people will warm up to cars first with Tesla.
I know that 22" wheels vs. 20" wheels have all the above described issues. I learned this from my first car that I actually cared about, my Mercedes. Before that, I had basically zero knowledge about wheel sizes, except the subjective that the thin walled tires looked dumb to me. (I had no idea if this was true or why, except intuitively.) Now? I'm looking forward to the day I can get 20" carbon fiber light weight rims with .... never mind. You get the picture.�
Apr 19, 2016
CmdrThor Tesla doesn't make anyone buy anything sight-unseen. Early adopters had to order sight unseen if they wanted to be the first to own this new vehicle, but as far as I know Tesla hasn't threatened to cancel anyone's reservation yet for failing to confirm. Sure they put the pressure on some at the end of Q1 with offers of getting their car in March (which didn't turn out too well with the 3rd row recall), but still no one put a gun to anyone's head to confirm.
Your comment about Tesla being put on notice to conserve cash tells me you are short TSLA. Did you not know they just collected almost $400M in Model 3 reservations?�
Apr 19, 2016
ohmman Agreed, assuming the story we're hearing is the whole story. Seems like a missed opportunity.
However, it's possible it looked differently from Tesla's side. I don't want to invent scenarios here, but I can imagine a few where Tesla might think, "this isn't going to work out for us either way."�
Apr 19, 2016
Cloc I won't bet my life on it, but it seems the drop in range is not nearly as severe as Tesla is stating. i can't remember where I read it, but the distance loss is not in proportion to the MS drop.�
Apr 19, 2016
Drivin Your comment tells me that you are long TSLA and own over 345 shares and are trying to generate support in the stock. Did you not know that those collections are 100 percent refundable?�
Apr 19, 2016
Noah Tesla said the could not legally swap the wheels prior to me accepting delivery, and had been unwilling to do so after delivery on my X. However they approved the swap on another X at the service center. The service center volunteered to swap the wheels with the other X (which was cool of them), though I'd still be out the $4500.
So far a lot of people have suggested I just take it, and work to sell the wheels later. I'm just not sure I'm interested in that hassle.
Wish that was me! This whole debacle could have been avoided. :/
I'm confident that the service center used every resource they had to resolve the issue. I feel bad for them since they had nothing to do with the important omission on Tesla's Design Studio. I can also see it from Tesla's point of view. Even though on the surface, a wheel swap would work in their favor (apparently there is a shortage of the Onyx 22's) I can see it causing a logistics issue which may simply cost them more than the hassle is worth.
I only started learning anything about cars after I got my S. Though I can't wrap my head around how the Model X range drop is a full 2X or 3X more than the Model S with performance wheels. I wish there was some better data here.�
Apr 19, 2016
Drivin Good that that service centers are not running like profit centers
That 4500 would totally have it been break even for them and they may have had to charge you much much much more If they needed to make profit.�
Apr 19, 2016
nh-srt8 I picked up my X90D yesterday with 22" Obsidian Black wheels and fully charged it is showing 269 miles rated range. We drove from the factory over the bay bridge, the Golden Gate Bridge to Sausilto. We then down to Monterey with 20% SOC remaining. I have no regrets with the decision in the wheels so far.�
Apr 19, 2016
eye.surgeon It's common knowledge that bigger wheels/tires on any car on the planet increases tire noise, decreases tire tread life, and hits fuel economy. I'm not sure if you thought Tesla has bypassed the laws of physics or you just aren't a car guy. There are probably a hundred posts on this very subject. It's one of the reasons so many people order the 19s on the S.�
Apr 19, 2016
Vitold from Q42015 call:
�My mandate from Elon is clear,� said Wheeler, �Cash is king.�
Conserving cash is good for investors because it signals that cash will last longer delaying another stock dilution, therefore I'm not sure why you'd think I'm short anything.�
Apr 20, 2016
engle I certainly understand your frustration.
In my case, since I was #P83 for the X, when I ordered on the first production ordering window day I was told (and later saved an email from my DS) that I would receive "all weather" tires for my 20" wheels, which I wanted anyway to go along with the Subzero Weather Package for future ski trips to Tahoe.
When I arrived at the factory on delivery day 3/22, there were summer performance tires on my X. (I wasn't surprised since my friend's X came with them two days earlier.) When I informed the delivery orientation specialist they will need to be changed and showed the email from my DS, they contacted my DS, and were instructed to put that on my due bill.
I drove away a happy customer.
Now, from what I understand, P90D[L]'s like mine get summer "sticky" tires to make the 0-60 insane/ludi numbers, and regular 75D and 90D's get the more practical all-seasons.
IMHO, that's what Tesla should have done for you, too. Put it on your due bill if they didn't have the wheels you needed available to swap out right away. It's called maintaining customer good will.
Later, since they treated me right, I gave my good will right back to Tesla by not returning my HPWC within the 30-day return period and ordering one of the new ones to save $200 + tax, and possibly use the master/slave mode in the future with a 2nd Tesla.
�
Apr 20, 2016
Redshift I got my stock 20s powder coated. They are the exact color of the onyx 22s, much less expensive, too.�
Apr 20, 2016
AnOutsider I'm not sure if you bypassed the many posts in this thread, but the issue was not that they WOULD, but to what degree. Tesla was originally saying 5-6% like the S. Now that has gone up.�
Apr 20, 2016
loganintx What was your Average Wh/Mile?�
Apr 20, 2016
goneskiian I'm guessing the 10%-15% is a CYA estimate by Tesla. As many have pointed out the 21's on the S range hit is much less. As you can see by my configuration in my signature I caved to my vanity in this case and went with the 22's. Although I'm fully expecting to purchase a set of 20's at some point for both winter and road trips where range is king.�
Apr 20, 2016
longshadows TMC might want to watch this sort of thing. There are tens of thousands of us, new-to-Tesla people, who have put down deposits on the |||. All we have over the next two years is to read reviews and the experiences and advice if owners on this forum.
If we come to feel that Tesla might not really "do the right thing" by us after all, we may decide to cancel our reservations and look elsewhere or wait on our first EV.
Buying an expensive car sight unseen and on the Internet is disconcerting enough, but if there is a sense that customers' needs and expectations won't be dealt with fairly by TMC, some of us will begin to get buyer's anxiety well before we ever experience mileage anxiety.�
Apr 20, 2016
bonnie Keep in mind that forums will always attract more complaints than compliments. When people are unhappy, they are more likely to seek out someplace like this.
For an alternative view, Best cars to own: Driver Power 2016 results�
Apr 20, 2016
Drivin Why do people still believe this?
There are lots of people who come to this and other forums to talk about how much they love the product even though there may be issues with it that they are willing to dismiss or downplay because "I love the company/mission and they will make it right".
Most sites like this are negative to people who say something negative "you must be a short" "you shouldn't be negative in public, take it private so you don't hurt the brand", "but Tesla has a long term vision, so stick with it" There have been people here chased away by that.
No, most (not all) people with issues wouldn't post on a site like this, they would go direct to the service group. Some are brave enough to post here and I always get a laugh when they start their post with some variation of "Ok, putting on my flame proof clothes first" or "I really love Tesla, but..." (e.g. I need to establish myself as a lover before I express a concern).�
Apr 20, 2016
jeffro01 Perhaps because it's true? Your post simply doesn't line up with reality. It's widely accepted that complaints generate far more "posts" than compliments ever will.
That being said, should someone have to put out a CYA statement before they bring up a complaint? In general, no. That type of a reaction comes from a reaction to people who have come and gone over the years with an agenda against Tesla. Some members here, myself included at times, are reactionary to such things because of that history.
Jeff�
Apr 20, 2016
bonnie Heh. I didn't say 'all'. Please don't change the content of what I said.
I always get a kick out of the folks acting like they'll be torn apart if they complain. Like it's some big act of bravery. I'd say it's about even when someone says something complimentary�
Apr 20, 2016
aznt1217 If I were you I would've just escalated and paid a $500 change fee or something. It's silly you waited so long for the car and you are letting wheels get in the way.�
Apr 20, 2016
pchan Actually what does it mean when you 'rejected your delivery'? You get refund of your money? The transaction is canceled? Or they are ordering a a new car for you?? New tires for you?�
Apr 20, 2016
Drivin No. You didn't say "a lot of people" I quoted what you said:
I never said you said "all". I said that most people (not all) with issues WOULDN'T post on a site like this due to fan boy reaction. That is completely different from what you said with a different context.
Please don't change the content of what I said�
Apr 20, 2016
Drivin Ok. In your world, it is widely accepted that fan boy sites have more complainers than supporters well then it must be true.
Excuse me, l am off to post on an Apple product site about a complaint where I know I will be greeted by support and be surrounded by more complainers than supports.
It is widely accepted.
So it is written, so it is true.
Black is white.
We have always been at war with Eurasia.�
Apr 20, 2016
Cloc Jeesh. Sensitive? I am citing with certainty that online posters are generally driven by discontent or a need to be heard. All I deal with is behavioral economics and I'm not about to pull out years of studies and references but I can assure you the assessment of the other members are right. Yelp, while not necessarily a "fanboy" website, is notorious for this phenomenon. In general, ones own opinion is self important and must be heard and shared, seeking reassurance and misery loves company. While it isnt an absolute truth, it is highly correlative. Very content people tend to go on their merry way with their purchases and never think there is a need to convince their fellow man to join them in a great purchase. Why spread the love? It's only when you need to stick it to the man, and you can't, that you look for a band of lynchmen.�
Apr 20, 2016
markb1 I presume it means he's out his deposit, but never paid the remainder of the price of the car.�
Apr 20, 2016
Lyon Total bummer of a situation OP, I hope they're able to resolve the situation to your satisfaction.�
Apr 20, 2016
Drivin But you are missing the point that "need to be heard" also includes compliments, a need for validation and a need for belonging.
(for instance: The Secret Psychology of Facebook: Why We Like, Share, Comment and Keep Coming Back).
This is why people talk about "my team" in sports, why these "community" sites promotes meet-ups and tell me more about yourself (e.g. age of owners, what car are you coming from?, who will be the first person who you will drive in your Model 3?, etc) and why negative posters are accused of being shorts but positive posters are never accused of being longs.�
Apr 20, 2016
SageBrush We must be reading different fan sites.�
Apr 20, 2016
Drivin Seriously? You compare apples (a review site) to oranges (a club/community) and drew a conclusion that they are the same. Well, ok then.
And it is amazing that the average rating on Yelp is a 1 because according to your analysis of years of research that it is notorious that more negative people than positive people post there. (rolls eyes)
Like here: Tesla Motors - Walnut Creek, CA
Or here: Tesla - Pasadena - Pasadena, CA
Or here: Tesla Motors - Near West Side - Chicago, IL
Or here: Mission Pie - Mission - San Francisco, CA (looked up apple pie instead of motherhood and apple pie)
Maybe you need to re-read all those years of studies and references that you have analyzed in the past.
So true! No one here posts that they are happy with their Tesla, or helping people by providing information about ordering, configuration, what to expect, etc or supporting people by talking about that they shouldn't worry about all the issues since Tesla service will make it right, or how to financially justify and finance a purchase, or how to get the most out of charging, etc.
Well ok then.
My eyes hurt from rolling so much.�
Apr 20, 2016
Cloc You've got some pretty reactive responses. I had deleted a previous reply, brushing your rhetoric and patronizing posts into the garbage. I figured you to be someone that is opinionated and abrasive, unwilling to accept any professional insight. Your link to an opinion / blog about research on the "secret" of Facebook is just that. I didn't tell you what I do to flex my professional muscles, I was trying to give you a sense of where I was coming from with my information. I did not provide you years of analysis, but thanks for thinking I did. You seem to have a habit of twisting arguments and turning words around with A B apples oranges yada yada. I'm sure I will get another response of this type.
Moving on, for instance, physicians don't have time to tell you all about why they have arrived at the decision from years of reading and studying various pathology to come to your diagnosis. They just need to summarize and review the risks benefits and course of action best for you. (No, you are not entitled to a literature review) If you don't want to believe it, go find another doctor. If Google is your doctor, or a blog site with opinions, good for you. By the way, vaccines work! And before you jump on me for the MD reference, yes I'm now a non practicing physician doing economics / decisions work for corporate.
I agree this is not an official review site. It's also not Facebook. There's no filtering of the group you are part of. Your identity is also not on the hook for anything. It's not black or white. Or maybe black is white or vice versa or however you say. Hail hydra. All that important stuff you keep spouting. But if this is the forum to be heard by the most tesla followers, it serves as a pretty decent under-the-radar review site. If Tesla is kicking you in the nuts, this is a great place to do damage.
Review sites attract negative evaluations over positive ones (period) Research (actual) does reveal that two groups of customers, when people are happy with their products (or not). Of those, the unhappy ones disproportionately provide more feedback. Happy ones weren't as compelled. As a matter of fact most unhappy customers weren't all that compelled either. In fact, people in general aren't compelled to provide feedback at all. It takes a greater amount of happy points than "unhappy" points to provide feedback at all. It takes much "less" to earn bad reviews. Smart companies, often get great overall reviews, unfortunately though, it's not organic, but usually enticed, coerced, solicited etc (Repuation management, another long story). There is a lot of customer manipulation or gentle nudging in the marketing world. You don't have to believe it. You also don't have to get vaccines.
Your condescending language is unfortunate and brings out the worst. I hope you resolve whatever upsets you so greatly. (rolls eyes) Yes, it's annoying.�
Apr 21, 2016
davidc18 +1 - take delivery. Sell the wheels. Be happy.�
Apr 21, 2016
David_Cary Big thread that probably could have been avoided if Tesla didn't post such a huge range hit - since I am of the opinion that it is unlikely to be that bad.
Am I right - the wheel is the same size - so no aero hit. The combined tire/rim should have the same (or very close) overall size. Then it comes to rubber. Of course performance tires are worse that all seasons particularly LRR tires. But 10-15%? Unlikely. And since rolling resistance factors in less as speeds increase (since aero grows faster), the hit goes down at highway speeds when range really matters.
So maybe 10% if you drive 10 mph but down to 5% at 40 mph and 3% at 70 mph.
And as someone else posted, the net effect of rolling resistance should be less than the S because the aero is worse. I find it unlikely that the X has super performance tires or that someone makes super slick 20 inch tires also.
The main thing that should matter here is the relative stickiness of 22 in X tires vs the 21 inch in the S tires.
The other option I haven't seen mentioned - does someone make 22 inch all seasons? or even better LRR? The hassle on selling the original tires is a little less (lighter) and you are guaranteed to find buyers but it will take a year or two. And the change out cost might be $1500 or so....�
Apr 21, 2016
ohmman The 22" wheels have more rotational mass weight than the 21". And much more than the 20". The bulk of the weight moves outward from the rotational axis as well, so the bigger the wheel, the bigger the hit. I haven't done the math to calculate it, but it's not insignificant. This will affect mostly starts, but still matters to some degree under constant speed.
Calling @jerry33, who usually has good input on this type of thing.�
Apr 21, 2016
Kyle Hubb Let's be practical here...
All these additions lead to a higher percentage range loss for the Model X.
- The Model S weighs a lot less than the Model X
- Model S uses 21 inch wheels, vs Model X 22 inch wheels (more weight)
- 245R21 front tires for the S, vs 265R22 front tires for the X (a bit more weight)
- 265R21 staggered rears for the S, vs 285R22 staggered rears for the X. (a lot more weight)
�
Apr 21, 2016
Kyle Hubb I was at The Galleria Houston to check out the Model X on display, and those had 22 inch Good Year All Season tires.�
Apr 21, 2016
goneskiian The 20's and 22's both come with All Seasons the 90D and 75D. Only the P90D gets summer performance tires on both wheel sizes.
The All Seasons on most early 22's have been the Pirelli Scorpion Zero (Asimmetrico?)
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Pirelli&tireModel=Scorpion+Zero
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Pirelli&tireModel=Scorpion+Zero+Asimmetrico
Cheers!�
Apr 21, 2016
Drivin Tesla doesn't seem to post a range hit for the S, at least not in the configurator the way the X does.
Do they post it elsewhere or is it negligible enough to ignore.�
Apr 21, 2016
goneskiian No but when you select the base 19" wheels in the configurator there's a note that says "Includes all season tires. Recommended for maximum range."
Then there is the "Range per charge" section of the Model S page that has a calculator that shows range hits across the board when toggling between 19" and 21" wheels.�
Apr 25, 2016
nh-srt8 We drove 1134 miles from Fremont back to Scottsdale and this was a mixture of mountain / coastal and Freeway highways. We averaged 372 Wh/mi on the journey.�
Apr 25, 2016
Aljohn My mother used to say --- "Don't cut off you nose to spite your face. I would have taken the car, determined if the mileage caused a Real World issue. Make a decision whether to change the wheels to after market. BTW, the mileage warning with 22" summer has been on the site for some time. It was there When I configured in December 2015. Increase the pressure in the tire by 2-3 pounds, may increase the range and not affect tire wear.�
Apr 25, 2016
mark80908 My guess is that if 5-6 miles is true on the S, then Tesla's notice of 10-15% or 39 miles for the X is in error. Following the explanation above about why ICE have better economy on the highway, then the loss with the bigger wheels should be less significant on the X since it has a bigger frontal surface and more weight than the S. In any case Tesla is making mistakes. The question is just where and how many.�
Apr 25, 2016
K-MTG If tires make such a difference, I might as well install the tires on a toy RC car�
Apr 25, 2016
Electricfan What do you normally charge your Model S to, such that you have 20 miles left when you reach your destination?
Could you simply increase the charge level on the X? If you were charging the S to 80%, charge the X to 90%?
Was the 10-15% figure available when you made your order?
Just seems like you could have solved the problem with a higher charge level and a 5mph slower speed. Slower speeds would increase your safety level as well.�
Apr 26, 2016
Boston I believe that decreased range with 22" wheels is primarily due to higher air resistance caused by the increased width of the tires. The BMW i3 uses unusually narrow tires specifically for this reason. Since air resistance (for turbulent flow) is proportional to the square of velocity, range reduction will increase dramatically with higher speeds and probably explains why Tesla quotes such a broad spread for reduced range. The increase weight of the wheels will further reduce range and the increased rotational inertia will decrease acceleration.�
Apr 26, 2016
vandacca I have to think that it's actually friction (from a greater surface area) not air resistance that BMW went with narrow tires. In University, we built a solar powered EV race car with 3 beefy bicycle wheels to minimize surface area as much as possible for this exact reason.�
Apr 26, 2016
Cosmacelf FWIW, I have 20" wheels on my X, and I can tell you the tires are very high performance. I have yet been able to break traction, even on wet roads intentionally cranking the steering wheel in a corner. Also, you get lower towing rating with 22".�
Apr 26, 2016
AnOutsider I wonder if that's actually due to the load rating of the wheel�
Apr 26, 2016
Zaphod Or load rating of the tires, more likely. Shorter sidewalls usually have lower load rating.�
Apr 26, 2016
loganintx Same reason why trains use steel wheels on steel rails with very small surface area making contact between the two.�
Apr 27, 2016
Boston @ Vandacca BMW marketing literature specifically cites reduced air resistance for the narrow tire design choice. Tire diameter was increased to compensate for the lost contact area. The gains must have been substantial to justify the use of a completely new tire profile requiring them to get the tire companies on board. I agree that rolling resistance is also a factor but I believe that air resistance is the primary consideration.�
Apr 27, 2016
ohmman In cycling, it's known that wider tires have lower rolling resistance, but higher air resistance. If you cyclo commute at slower speeds, wider tires are better both from a ride and resistance standpoint. Once your speed increases enough to where air resistance becomes more meaningful than rolling resistance, thinner tires make sense.
So I think with vehicles, you are likely right. Air resistance is probably more important of a factor.�
Apr 27, 2016
goneskiian Yup. Good ol' frontal area. I and many others actually run a larger tire in the rear for the rolling resistance reduction (it's out of the wind) and a slightly narrower tire in the front for the aerodynamics.
Road racers are finally realizing how great fat tires roll.�
May 30, 2016
mark80908 So what's the final resolution? Did you get an X? Which wheels...?�
Jun 6, 2016
Bignikk Lmao!!! Are you serious? A dealer give a customer something for free because the manufacturer was unable/willing to budge? LOL. Clearly you've never worked for a dealer (I have worked for 3 dealers and have been in theAutomotive industry for ocer 20 years). Or you're just trolling. Either way. I disagree with your assessment of what a dealer would do in this situation.�
Jun 6, 2016
F123456 The post to which you're referring mentioned what Tesla "should" do; not what a "dealer would do," as you said.
Part of the benefit of buying a Tesla is that there is no dealership -- one less middle man, one less layer of middle management, etc. Now, Tesla is clearly imperfect, and does not always go out of the way to make the customer happy. But working with them to purchase and own a vehicle is still infinitely more sane, reasonable, and efficient, than going through a conventional dealer. And that's without even getting into the benefits of the car itself!�
Jun 6, 2016
AnOutsider Your reasoning seems to hinge on the word "dealer", which doesn't really apply here.�
Jun 7, 2016
Monkey ...And yet, my P90D was delivered with the all-season tires instead of summer performance tires simply because I asked for them.�
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